BILLIONAIRE Shares The SUCCESS HABITS That Will Make You WEALTHY | Charles Koch & Lewis Howes

I mean, they always talk about the Koch brothers. No, we were two largely different people, but we supported each other, we helped each other. And I think that that shows that people who are entirely different can still work together.

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness. Really?

Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howis.

Welcome, everyone, to the School of Greatness. I am very excited. We have an iconic human being on today. His name is Charles Koch, and he is the chairman of and CEO of Koch Industries, one of the largest privately held American companies employing over 130,000 people worldwide. And you have done so much for philanthropy in the last 50 years in terms of supporting education, different organizations addressing poverty, public policy, research, so many different things around social problems. You've got many nonprofit organizations, including Stand Together. You've got many master's degrees from mit, and you're also just a down to earth good old country boy from Kansas. So I'm very grateful that you're here. And you also have a new book called Believe in Bottom Up Solutions for a Top Down World. That is very inspiring. I was able to go through a lot of this and very inspired by the principles and the stories and the people that you're lifting up throughout this book. And you say, charles, each of us can make a big difference when we believe in people. You said this once.

Central to our philosophy is that everyone has a gift. Everyone can contribute if they're empowered. And so that's the secret. Have a society, have institutions, have people that empower others, that enable them to find their gift, turn it into valued skills, and then apply it in a way that enables them to succeed by contributing to others. And see how simple this is. And I mean, the problem is you need a society that is relatively based on the principles of equal rights and mutual benefit, where people succeed by assisting each other, and everyone has the opportunity to realize their potential. Now that's utopian. There's no society that's been perfect at that, but even once through history that have had a small degree of that, then what these people can do that no one suspected could do anything, have done extraordinary things and changed societies. And so that's what we try to do, is go find those people to solve a problem, to eliminate an injustice, and then back them and combine our capabilities with theirs to enable them to do even more, to help even more people. What I call this is applying the principles of human progress. This involves three different things because it requires believing in yourself, believing in other people, empowering them from the bottom up, having them realize that no one's good at everything. We're all just good at a few things. So we need to partner with people who have complementary capabilities. So this gets to Frederick Douglass philosophy that made him such a great a social entrepreneur to unite with anybody to do right and no one to do wrong. So those are some of our guidelines. But as I say, then, the starting point in all this is to recognize that everybody can participate in this. Everybody can contribute and succeed. So I was disappointing my father and he stayed with me.

You weren't working hard enough at six.

I mean, this lasted 20 years from the time I found my gift. And just it might be an interesting story how I found it. I was in the third grade and the teacher was putting math problems on the board. And it's amazing what you remember. That is an aha moment. And I say to myself, why is she putting those problems on the board? The answers are obvious. And I look around the room and they aren't obvious to anybody else. And so that was the starting point in discovering my gift. And then I learned, okay, I have an aptitude for math and other abstract concepts. And that includes principles of science and the principles of human progress, as it turns out. So anyway, it took me 20 years from discovering that to really apply it to enable me to develop that capability and use it to contribute so I could believe in myself. And then I had another haha moment. It was taking the math final. There were 10 questions on it, and I answered them all and got 100. And so my friends said, why did you answer 10? You only needed to answer seven to pass. I said, oh, now I see the problem. If you're not going to use your ability to do your best, you are headed for a dead end. And a lot of these kids ended up in dead ends. So I said, I've got to start applying myself. So my grades got better. So I got into MIT thinking that my aptitude was a good fit for engineering. Well, I got three, as you said, three degrees in engineering, there to learn. I was a lousy engineer. I was good at the underlying concepts, but on using them to make things and operate things, I always screwed that up. So I said, well, what do I do? Okay, I've got to find a place I can work where I can experiment, do trial and error and find something that fits me, that I have to find something I'm good at that I can apply this aptitude that would enable me to contribute. So I said, well, I want to be an entrepreneur. And I had friends and professors at MIT who were starting businesses. And I said, okay, I'll find one of these that will take me on. I can invest with them and go to work there. And that'd be my start as an entrepreneur. So I was talking to friends and professors about that. And by the way, we did invest with them later. But I didn't go to work for him because my father called and we had a small company then. The main business was a crude oil gathering system in southern Oklahoma. And he said, son, I'd like to come back and join the company. I mean, you got all this experience now. I said, well, as tough as it'd been on me, I didn't want any more of that. I wanted to be independent. And so he called me back a little while later and he said, son, as you know, my health is poor. I'm not able to really run the company, and so it's not doing well, and I don't have long to live. And either you come back to run the company or I'll have to sell it. And he said, and I'll let you run part of it without any interference from me from day one. The only thing I need want to improve is if you decide to sell that part of it. So I said, I'm not going to get a better entrepreneurial offer than that. And he was absolutely true to his word. I mean, it was in bad enough shape that even as little as I knew, I was able to make substantial improvements, but I still felt empty. Something was missing. I mean, as Maslow said, what you can be, you must be. If you're not fully using your capabilities and realizing your potential, you will be miserable even if you're externally successful. And, boy, that fit me. So I said, well, what do I do? I got to do something. So I dedicated myself to learning the principles of human progress. So I read everything that had any relation, whether that was the philosophy of science, philosophy, economics, anthropology, sociology, you name it. And I read it from all different perspectives. John Stuart Mill said, if you only know your side of the case, you know little of that. And I found, boy, is that true. If you don't know the arguments against what you think is right, you don't really know. You don't really. You just accepted it. So you got to challenge yourself.

What would you say? You said you started to obsess over learning and reading about these five finding tools, principles, concepts to support you in becoming the greatest version of yourself. What would you say are the three most important tools that you've learned? Whether at 27, 40, 85, what were those tools, three tools you wish you would have known sooner that supported your growth at the highest level.

For me to feel good about myself, and that's true today at age 85, is how do I contribute? And the way I contribute is to use my gifts, focus in areas for which my capabilities can make the biggest contribution. Okay, so then how do I develop them? So I wish, I mean, I wasted 20 years there. If I had, if I had developed a passion at age 10 or something, or age 18 rather than age 27, to find these conceptual tools that I could use. Because soon as I'd learned one of these principles, the principles I saw through history really empowered people and moved society toward one of equal rights and mutual benefit, I found that worked. Wow, these ideas work. So the first thing is that, and then you, then you need to realize that, okay, you're good at this, that doesn't mean you're good at a bunch of other stuff. So don't start thinking you're just smarter than other people or anything. And I mean, this is another thing. I studied multiple intelligence theory that we have these discrete, there are these discrete intelligence there, which I mean, I don't agree quite the way it was, but there was element of truth in it. And so if you realize that, then you say, okay, I'm good at certain things and I'm not good at others. And if I want to contribute, I can't be doing it all or I'll make a mess of it. So I've got to go partner with people. And whenever I found the right partners who were good at all the other things that needed to be done, then I wasn't, then I've succeeded. And when I haven't had good partners that I've tried to do myself, I fail. I mean for me, but I mean a lot of people have much broader capabilities than I do, but mine are pretty darn good in this one area if I just stick to it to really contribute. You focus on creating value for others, you focus on bottom up empowerment. And so that's what we've done with our employees. For example, in our company, the first job of every supervisor at every level, including me, is to help your people self actualize. As a matter of fact, in our guiding principles, number eight is self actualization.

Yeah, I love that you have that too. It's great.

So we're not kidding around about this stuff. And we find when we do that, and with technology now, it's much easier to do it because it's easier to give them tools. So they can be entrepreneurs, so they can be self starters. And now we're finding, I mean, every meeting now, the first thing I want them to, okay, what are the innovations? Where are they coming from? And they're coming from frontline people doing the work.

Not from you, not from a leader.

No. Well, as a matter of fact, what I do, if I get an idea what we ought to do, okay, we ought to make this acquisition, or we need this strategy, or so the first thing I do is say, okay, I got the concept, and this is Popper's theory of the scientific methods. True science is coming up with a testable proposition and then not going around trying to find things that will support it, but go around and find things that will undermine it, show the flaws in it. And so that's what I get a group of people who together on all the different drivers of success with this venture, I have in mind to point out the flaws from their perspective. And we always come up with a better answer than I started with. And so this empowers everybody. And then every supervisor is supposed to help each employee find their gift. And then when they find their gift, then work with them to design a role around that. Rather than, okay, we got these roles, we're going to stick you in it. And so typically, somebody in a role, they're good at half of it, and then they struggle with the other. You give them feedback and so on. That's like if I worked for an opera company and I was a business manager, I might do pretty well. But then the tenor got sick and they made me sing tenor. They could train me, give me feedback till the end of time. I would fail and the opera company would fail. So that's what we've learned. And then give them the tools and the authorities to practice this and get turned on and make innovations.

Were you a baritone?

I'm a no tone. No tone.

You're no singer. You leave that to your wife, huh?

Yeah. And my daughter.

I'm curious, why emphasize self actualization so much with your culture in your, in your businesses? And how else do we learn to self actualize if we're not looking for it? How do we, how do we encourage it for someone if they're not looking to grow, looking to discover their gifts, if they just kind of want to keep doing the thing they've done? How do we encourage and cultivate that?

No, that's, that's a great question. And that goes right to the heart of it. What we all do, if we've learned a way to do Things and it isn't working well, we tend to double doubt, well, we're going to do more of this thing that doesn't work. The only way people are willing to take the risk and put in the effort to learn a new way is if you can convince them this is a better way. This will make your life better, give more meaning to your life, you'll be more successful. It's worth the effort. And so we recruit on basically two dimensions. The first is, are you contribution motivated or can we get you to be? If you're negatively motivated and you want to get ahead by maneuvering and showing the other employees are bad or you're better than they are, all of that or fudging the figures or stuff. We've had a boy. Boy, that is poison.

It's a cancer, right?

Boy, that's a good way to put it. It's an absolute cancer. So the first thing is, are they contribution motivated? And then the second, do they have a talent? Not credentials, not where they went to college or if they went to college, we couldn't care less. Do you have a talent that's going to enable us to do a better job of creating value for all our constituencies, starting with our customers, our employees, our suppliers, our communities and society as a whole. And then to help us continually transform ourselves to do better and better at that?

That's a beautiful way of recruiting.

Oh yeah. No, we get people here and they get into this and you know, we talk about self actualization a lot with our employees and they say when they really get the bug and they start innovating and getting the authority to do more and experiment more, try new things. Wow. Now my job is fun. I'm loving it rather than drudgery. And technology is really helping with that. Now you can automate and so then they can figure out how to use the automation better and how to do new things. And we can stop doing that because we can do it. We can cut out two steps now. I mean, it's beautiful, it's fabulous. Well, you can tell I get pumped up about this. And then this is the same approach we use in our philanthropic community, Stand Together once again, we don't say, okay, we at Stand Together got all the answers. We go find social entrepreneurs who have lived through a problem or been close to a problem, whether that's addiction, in prison, in poverty, in a bad education system and a bad school. And they found a better way, a way to really empower the students rather than turn them off against this. This one size fits all Schooling, teach to test stuff to help empower them. And the same things across the board. All the key institutions we're working to find these social entrepreneurs and then empower them to do even more and then to scale. Because as I said, I think earlier that what's changed societies in the past is where there are enough of these people who have transformed themselves and become social entrepreneurs. And when you get enough of them, showing there's a better way, showing that the person who was just a worker can have ideas and start a business and do amazing things. I mean, look at the Wright brothers. The government was supporting a big project to build airplanes and the Wright brothers, bicycle mechanics figured it out way before and way cheaper than this. Well, credentialed effort. This is the problem with this top down stuff. You. Okay, think, okay, we know who's smart and who's not and we're going to give them the authority to do it. And the rest of you just shut up and go do your work and we'll feed you some stuff. And we find you don't know in advance. Look at Einstein. He wasn't accepted at university. He became a patent clerk. You could go through example, through example, through history. And that's what's so fabulous. And this is why I'm so excited as I see this every time I see somebody becoming empowered and transforming their lives. Okay. This is validation of my whole life.

Yeah.

And I can't tell you the number of former employees who have either written me or come in to see me and say that. What I learned here, and not more than just learning it academic, but actually practicing and seeing that, focusing on creating value for others rather than always, what's in it for me? Because if you help others, they're going to help you.

Absolutely.

If you don't help others, everybody wants you to fail. When you're helping them, they want you to win. So you develop this culture of mutual benefit and mutual assistance.

I love it. You're speaking my language. You're talking about the Wright brothers. I'm from a small town in Ohio, so you're speaking close to home to me there. Talking about personal growth, personal development within a workplace. What are the main keys to self actualization?

Starting with believing in yourself.

How does someone believe in themselves when all they do is doubt all the time?

They find, okay, well, that's the way I was. So it took me 20 years. And that's why we wrote this book, to help it not take 20 years for people. So we need schools to be oriented. We need businesses to Be oriented. And the way they do it is they have some success. Wow. And they see other people. Wow. Who weren't doing well and they got in the right role and with the right supervisor who was helping empower them. And so it's bottom up empowerment.

Yeah.

That's what social entrepreneurship is all about. Like Scott Strode, who was an addict for 10 years and he found by going to the gym and others there who had the problem and they helped each other. And he says, well, I'm going to set up an organization to do this and it's called the Phoenix, I mean, which is rising. It's tremendous success rate. I think it's double the success rate of any other method that we're aware of for healing addiction. And it's this combination of community and mutual support. And they go on hikes, they do rock climbing together, they'll do boxing together, do gymnastics together. So the people can see they can do it. And then there are people there to help them. Not just talk about it, but do it. That's the key. And do it in a community. And then you have a support community who's really supporting you to go out and live, not just exist. Yeah.

So believing yourself is the first thing and really finding your gift and then finding success within your gift will help you believe in yourself more. What's a, what's another main key to self actualization?

Well, it's having. It's having mentors, having people, these social entrepreneurs who are dedicated to empowering you. It's like Chad Hauser, I don't know whether you've read about him. All these are in the book. He was very successful chef and restaurant owner and he came in touch with some of these kids in the juvie who were called throwaway kids. And he said, that's offensive to me. Nobody is throwaway. He says, so I'm going to create a restaurant totally staffed by these kids after they get out of juvie. And I'm going to show them that they can succeed. And then what will happen when people come there and they get great service, great food and a great atmosphere from these throwaway kids, then it changes their mindset. And so you open people's minds. And that's how societies change. We got to show a better way. And so we have that in area after area going on and we just need to scale it and celebrate it more. So more and more people see this because we find, as you can see, people who endorse this book, it isn't just one group, it's people across from all walks of life, all different persuasions.

Yeah, I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I think I read online that Forbes lists you as the 11th richest person in the world. I'm sure that goes up and down.

How does, I don't believe it.

How does someone stay humble of being, having that much money and being on a list of whether it's 11 or 100 or whatever. How do you stay humble when you've accumulated so much wealth and built a company with 130,000 employees around the world? How do you do that?

Well, I'm like Martin Luther, here I stand, I can do no other. To me, the first person you've got to please is yourself. And all this external stuff. Oh, you had all this money, you've accomplished all this. Well, big deal. What I'm interested in is what I'm going to accomplish tomorrow. Am I going to help somebody tomorrow? It's what Maslow said is that to self actualize there has to be synergy, A merger of the selfish and unselfish that is you. Okay, I'm going to dedicate my life to helping others improve theirs. But I'm going to focus people on where there's a spirit of mutual benefit. And it may just be my own self worth that's benefiting, but that's, I mean that's all I need now. I don't need more money or anything I need, but I need money to better help people become empowered. So that's how I use it. Look, all the criticism I get, you think I'm doing all this stuff so I can get praise? Well, I found it doesn't get you praise. People are threatened by it or they're envious or whatever. All you get is more attacks. But we're also finding as people learn this works and if they do it, they feel better about themselves and they have a better life. It's what Victor Frankl said evermore people have the means to live but no meaning to live for. Or Bob Dylan said, those not busy being born are busy dying. So if you're just sitting around counting your money, I mean, what's that about? That's not a lie.

How do you handle all the criticism and attacks and judgments about decisions you make or are going to make? How do you personally internalize and not allow it consume your self worth?

I internalize Karl Popper's scientific method and that is you want criticism now you would hope it would all be constructive to help it. But I realize a lot of it is just to try to Shut me down, shut me up, and go hide in a corner somewhere. That doesn't seem to work for him. But even then, Even then, when they're attacking, okay, why are they attacking? And so I look at, maybe we can find common ground, like with Van Jones. He led the demonstration against our first event in Palm Springs. I mean, he was out there physically leading it, and he hated us. And so when we started working on criminal justice reform, we were looking for people across the spectrum that would work with. And he was interested in it. So we approached him and he says, yeah, I'll. I mean, like. Like Frederick Dahlia and I, with anybody to do right, I'll even work with you. And so he became good partners with our general counsel who was leading our effort in there. And they were on TV together telling what a great partnership we had. And he said on that, he said, I used to think all the people on the other side of these issues were evil of issues that I was passionate about, and everybody on my side was good. He said, I find good and evil people on both sides. There are good people on the other side. They just have a different perspective on how to help people. So that doesn't make them evil. That means we should work together, put our heads together. Because different ideas, as I say, I find all the time, complementary capabilities. You share ideas and you come up with a better solution. That's how innovations are made. I mean, that's what Newton said. If I see further, it's because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. He said, I didn't invent all this stuff. I found new ways to put it together.

I love this. You're in the flow. What would you say is the difference between a wealthy or rich mindset versus a poor mindset? Is it a way of thinking? Is it a way of acting and being and doing? What's the difference between rich mindset and poor mindset?

I mean, in an ideal world, it would be those that are wealthy, got wealthy because they did a tremendous job of helping others. You invented a cure for cancer. I mean, you say, well, we don't want anybody to be wealthy. Well, don't you want people to invent things and come up with ideas? Don't you want Thomas Edison to. To be successful, who invented all these things that make our lives better? What we don't want is people to get wealthy by rigging the system, by trying to limit innovation, limit competition. All those things that we see going on in our system, which is what we call cronyism and protectionism. That's what we're against all of it, even if it makes us money. We want a system, as I said, a system of equal rights and mutual benefit where people succeed by assisting each other. And so ideally that's the difference. But that potential is in everybody. So for many people today, it's because they were throwaway people. No one believed in them. With this top down, okay, we're going to tell you, we're going to come in and tell you how to live your life and we'll give you money and you'll be all right, so your poverty will be less painful. Whereas our job, if you empower people, everybody can get out of poverty because everybody can contribute. So how do we find a way to help people contribute? And we've done this. My wife and I started an organization here in Wichita called youth entrepreneurs 30 years ago. It was in one, one school here in Wichita that was in a poor area. I mean, and these kids, well, I'll tell you a story of one named April. This is after we'd been doing just a few years. And well, let me tell you this, the program here is what we call three dimensional education. That is, it's hands on. It isn't just classroom, it's doing. And it starts with helping them find their gift, turning it into value skills and then use it to succeed by contributing. And we help them start their own small business. And then the ones that have the best business plan, then we give them some seed capital, not a lot, maybe $1,000 or even a few hundred so they can start and they start doing it. And, and so then the top performers speak at graduation. And this girl, April, I'll never forget her talk, she said, I grew up in a terrible area. My mother was an addict, my brother had been shot, my sister was in prison and I thought it was hopeless. So I was failing everything. And in high school and she said, and then I heard about this class where I could get some money. She said, well, I'd like to get some money. And she said, I got in there and I found, wow. I've got to have a winning business plan and a successful business. Wow. So I've got to learn to read and write and present, so I better start doing that. And then if I have a business, I got to do math to know what's working and what's not. And then if I got to, if I want customers and employees, I've got to learn to treat them with respect. So she said, it changed my whole life. And I went from failing everything to Getting straight A's. And then she got a scholarship to college and I've kind of lost track of her. But she had a successful business of her own. So that's we. That we see that story. I can tell you dozens of stories like that. So that's the difference. These people who grow up in these, in these areas where they have bad educational system, a bad criminal justice system, all other problems, people in the community hurting each other, drive by shootings and stuff, so everybody's scared, so they join gangs out of self defense. I mean we've got to help them. We have to have. And we do. We have social entrepreneurs working this that are transforming lives.

As a former athlete, I'm a big fan of visualization, of seeing the results I want to create on the football field, on the basketball court in the future. But I've always been a big fan of visualization. Every morning thinking about what do I want to create for the day? How do I want to show up when something happens, how do I want to respond and react? And for me, I find that visualization has been really powerful for my life. Is this something that you do in business relationship or deal making? When you're about to negotiate a deal, do you visualize the outcome? How is that in your life? If it's.

Yeah, but I don't. Not with, I mean in football it'd be the image or like a chess player visualize, okay, the moves 10 down. What if it does this? So that's a different. I don't have that but I have one for. Okay, what are the principles involved here? What are the concepts? And okay, what do we need to do to apply those concepts, apply these principles? Because we find when we violate these basic principles of human progress, we fail. We don't think we're doing it because we're going through the motions and we're using the right words and all stuff, but we're not really doing it. And so that's. We need constantly have these checks and why we need this challenge, continual challenge culture from everybody. And so like if you're a supervisor here and your people aren't challenging you would go help you. Now you're not getting their knowledge. So you cannot succeed if you're only using your knowledge. Those people out there doing the work see waste and see better ways that I will never see and even you as their immediate supervisor won't see. I mean, the thing to visualize is how do we better empower our people so they come up with answers rather than me. And so those Are the things I think about.

When you are in your late 20s and 30s, did you ever dream or imagine that this is where your life would be now and this is where your business and visions and nonprofits would be at? Was that ever a dream or were you just like make some money and have a good family?

That's why I say this philosophy. These concepts have enabled me to achieve more than I ever dreamed and totally transformed my life. And it's. And we raised our children with this philosophy which I talk about in the book. I mean, this is so powerful. And then to have the luxury of seeing what it's done for so many other people's lives is just, I mean, as you tell, I'm pumped up about it.

How do you talked about your kids? I know you have a great relationship with them. How do you not? For all the parents listening and watching who have generated some success or some financial abundance in their life, how do you not screw up your kids when you have wealth? How do you keep them humble and grounded and hardworking and committed to growth and self actualization when they essentially have everything at their fingertips if they wanted it?

Well, I mean, I learned that lesson from my father. He exemplified integrity, humility, treating others respect, hard work, lifelong learner. Like, he would say things like, son, learn everything you can. You never know when it'll come in handy. And on every one of these issues he would talk about and he would do it. I mean, he worked all the time just like I do. And he, boy, when we didn't treat somebody with respect or like we were waiting in line for a movie together and we'd say, okay, it's kind of crooked here, maybe we can move up. Well, he would come and grab us. You go back to the end of the line. I mean, he was a bear. And you, if you bragged about anything, boy, you would get smacked down. And if you talk bad about any person, oh man, I got the belt a few times.

So he was pretty disciplined.

So we, I mean we weren't, we weren't as tough on our kids, but we talked about this every day. For example, the school had the kind of the five valleys. Love, courage, faith, honor and loyalty. So every night at dinner, I would have each one. You could pick any one of these five and then you would, you need to tell me how you exemplified that with a specific example. And at first they were frustrated cry, this is starting in the first grade. And so that was a little intimidating. But after they got into it, it's just like with our employees okay, you go help others succeed. You go create value for others. And obviously our best customers are those who reciprocate and who reward us for it. So that changed. And then every Sunday evening I would take them in my library and play a tape for like 10 minutes, whether it's Maslow, Aristotle, across all these disciplines that I had learned. I had tapes on them and play it for about 10 minutes. And I knew that was their attention span max. And so then we'd just have a discussion. And my daughter picked up on it. I mean, she was eager, she was doing. My son wasn't. He was more like me.

He was, let me go play dad.

Yeah, yeah. I got important things to do. But then he's gotten it and he. And now because of this and this business of finding your gift and then developing it and using it to help a boy, they are both doing that. Like, my son has started a business here called Koch Disruptive Technologies and he's now has investments in 10 companies. And we do that through the philosophy of mutual benefit because there's all this money rushing in for hot technologies. But we're a preferred partner because we say we have all these businesses and some of them be a good pilot area where you can apply it. And then our people will work with you to show you how to make it work better because they'll be the ones applying it. And that's what we call Koch Labs. So our whole, all our businesses, we look at laboratories, Koch Labs, and then in Stand Together, he's built these relationships with all these technology entrepreneurs. And so now they're working with us on Stand Together because they've made money and they want to have meaning in their lives so we can help them find what they're passionate about and where they can make the biggest contribution. So he's done that way beyond what I could at his age. And then our daughter, well, she was frustrated for a long time like I was. Couldn't find her way. Now she started an organization called Unlikely Collaborators. And they get together and she finds people who, who are frustrated about something, have a hang up, maybe they're bitter. So they go through these sessions. Well, she starts it with telling about all her problems and her failures. And of course then that opens them up and they talk about it. And she's totally dedicated to helping people and she's working with us, she's helping show us how, what she's learned on, on helping people in ways that we haven't used.

I'm curious about your non negotiables on A daily basis. Do you have a list or things that are non negotiable that you do? Maybe it's you get up at a certain time or you always take a walk or you eat a certain way. Is there anything like that you do? Or you always give your wife a hug and a kiss. Is there something you always do? Non negotiable.

Yeah. I work my mind and body every day. Every day I'm going to learn something that will help me contribute. I'm going to find a way to contribute and I'm going to work out because I've got to stay in shape to do all the things I'm doing.

Yeah.

So those are my primaries and that's what keeps me alive.

What do you feel is missing in your life?

The ability to move our society better in a direction of equal rights and mutual benefit, where people assist each other. Because it's gotten so divided and these ad hominent attacks and no one talking about, as we said about, okay, let's find ways to work together to empower people, help people rise. Particularly those who are starting to nothing rather than like an occupational licensure. Okay, will all the business people in the community get together? We're going to make these rules so tough that these people starting out can't compete with us. I mean, that's monstrous. So that's one of our key issues. We got to get rid of these regulations like that, these protectionist, cronyist regulations that keep people back and slow down innovation, undermine competition, undermine opportunity.

Yeah, that's. Yeah, it's hard to overcome all that and hard to make it all happen in a powerful way.

Yeah. So that's my biggest frustration. I'd like to wave a wand and bring it on.

Figure that out.

I'm not a utopian. I mean, we'll never be perfect. If we move 10% in that direction, like reading history, this would make a massive change. Just 10% improvement in those principles of human progress.

Yeah. And I'm curious, what do you think is the biggest fear you've had to overcome in the last 40 years and what is the greatest fear you still face today?

Well, my fear is always that tomorrow I won't be able to contribute. I lose my. Which I mean, as you get older you lose some of your capacities. And then I'll lose it and I won't be able to contribute because then I might as well. You might as well just throw me in the ditch and cover me up.

How do you manage that fear?

Well, the way I manage it is every Day contribute. And if I contribute and I can still offer something to help and I'm still making a difference, then, okay, I'm good to go. Now. I got to. Now I got to work on how I do that tomorrow and maybe next year, God willing.

Yeah. How do you. How do you respond to people that might have a different perspective on life than you, where they say, you know, Charles, you just. You work so hard for so long. Shouldn't you relax and take a vacation more and retire more and just kind of enjoy life? What do you say to that type of mentality of, you know, seeing things in a different way as opposed to wanting to show up daily, learn, grow, work out, develop, support your community? What do you say to that perspective?

We try to help them find what they're passionate about, because everybody has some path. They see injustice or they see problems, or they had people with bad health or people who've fallen on hard times. Okay, help them see how to help them. And it isn't just, okay, I'm going to give you money and you'll be all right. No, you've got to help them get meaning in their lives. And so what we do, we have these thousands of social entrepreneurs we work with and partner with, and we'll say, okay, here are all the things that we're doing. And then have come to meetings where people who are doing it, some who are dying, who have terrible health, disease, and the only thing that's keeping them alive is feeling good about what they're doing. I mean, I call them on the phone, see how they're doing. Boy, here's. I'm working on this. Boy, isn't this great? Let me tell you what we're doing. I mean, that's it. Do you want to exist or live? That's what it's about.

I'm with you. I agree with you. And your brother and business partner passed away recently. Last year. I'm curious, what was the biggest lesson that he taught you about life?

That's a good question. I think what he taught me is his integrity and his loyalty. He had a different viewpoint on a lot of things than I did. I mean, I always talk about the Koch brothers. No, we were two largely different people, but we supported each other, we helped each other. And I think that shows that people who are entirely different can still work together in a way where the one plus one is more than two. And that's what we did because he supported us throughout. No matter what the challenges.

I know that you've been. You fall in love with your wife more and more every day since you met her? I think over 51 years ago now, I'm not sure if that's accurate.

Well, no, we became an item 53 years ago, but we.

53 years ago.

I was slow playing it, so we only been married 48 years.

Okay. 53 years of knowing each other. And I read in the book that you. You're smitten by her more and more every day. You're drawn to her energetically. More and more every. Every day. And she's like a magnet. You said she draws you in. She draws people in with her, her charm.

She's a natural leader. Yeah, she has. I mean, and talk about multiple intelligence. Her ability to read herself and read others is phenomenal. She can meet somebody and have them analyzed up to take me six months to figure out. I mean, so she's helped me so much. That's what I say. I'm good at this narrow thing, and she's good at almost everything I'm not. So we're. So we really help each other. And then I've taught her, kind of against her will to start with all these ideas and concepts, and now, boy, she can use them.

Wow.

And she. Everybody she's with, whether it's. She loves to play tennis, the tennis pros and the other players, she's there teaching them every day.

Yeah. What's the greatest lesson she's taught you and when did she teach you that lesson?

She taught me when I was dating because I was really into these ideas. I had sophomoreitis, and so I'd go to a cocktail party and like to get in a debate with somebody about all this stuff. I could slaughter them because they haven't really thought about it or studied it. And boy, then I'd feel good. She said, you dummy, you're not going to convince anybody. All you're going to do is make them hate you. Is that your goal? Okay. I mean, she. I learned stuff like that from her all the time. And she said, okay, you have these friends and stuff. You need a way to find out when they're troubled, when they're having a problem, and then offer your support. Show you care about them then. And I'm in my own world of concepts and principles and going away. And so I don't even know they're having that. But she picks it up. And so then she gets me to show up. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just. There are just so many things like that of everyday living that makes you human. I mean, because if you get too much into the concepts. You're not fully human. So she makes me human. In our family, my father was a Dutchman. His favorite saying was, you can tell the Dutch, but you can't tell them much. And so we didn't have expression. There wasn't a lot of I love you and stuff. I mean, we knew they loved care about us because they did everything to help us amount to something, but there wasn't a lot of that. So when our kids were born, I couldn't say I love you. I'd say, papa loves you. And now I can say I love you to anybody, anybody I care about. So she's. I mean, she's retrained me. I mean, well, it's hard to break our old habit.

It's very hard. Yeah.

Takes work over time. And she's my mentor in that. And she makes me work at it over time. So you change your habits.

What's the thing you love about her the most?

I think that she is a force of nature. She is fearless. She will take on anybody. Like, we were seated next to Schwarzenegger before he was governor, and she meets him and says, you Republicans in conference are the dumbest people I've ever met.

Arnold.

Yeah, to Arnold.

What did he say?

How did he reply? Everybody's afraid of him. She wasn't. She was going right after him.

How did he respond?

He was great. He told me the next day, it was at Mike Milken's cancer conference. And he told me, he said, boy, your wife is something. He said, I've learned a lot from her.

Wow. There you go.

That's the way she is. No, she is a leader and fearless, and she's got great judgment, great persistence, and you don't need to worry about. She's covering up. She's hiding her feelings or hiding the way she feels. It's all out there. Because she's half Italian, too, so she has that Italian spirit. So we got the Dutch and the Italian.

What are you for young entrepreneurs who are building their businesses, who have started to accumulate some extra income, they have some savings now. They've got some more abundance. They've met their needs, They've started to build a business. Maybe it's a small business growing now, but they've got some extra financial resources. What would you say is some of the best investments they should be making? Should it be thinking of investments in terms of diversification? Should it be back into your business? Should it be into personal growth? Growth? Should it be. What should people be investing in in general?

I Don't know whether you've seen my previous book I did this spring called Transforming Koch Industries through Virtuous Cycles of Mutual Benefit. And that's a long winded way of saying the way we've succeeded is applying these principles of human progress to figure out what capabilities we have that will create value for others. Then what are the best opportunities? The opportunities that will enable us to create the most value with our capabilities and then continually improve and add to our capabilities to create value for others. And then as we do that, that opens up new opportunities because we got capabilities to do more. And then when we get a new opportunity, it shows us we need to develop still another capability. So this is why I called Virtuous Cycles of Mutual Benefit in this, this is just a hundred page book I wrote really as an employee manual because of the rate of change I needed our people to think about. We got to change faster. We got to drive creative destruction more intensely. We got to empower our people even better, help them self actualize. So we got to do everything we've been doing but at warp speed now. So I wrote this book to lay that out and what's made us successful. And now we got to do this on steroids. And that's what I'd recommend for everyone. Like we have interns, they ask where should I focus? I forget about the shiny object, think where do I have the capabilities to create value? And that I'm going to be passionate about. Because if you're not passionate about, you're not going to put in the work and intensity to be successful and then develop that and then find the best opportunities. And if you're not thrilled with them, if you're not turned on, then you've got the wrong opportunity. So it's a trial and error process. And then don't worry about making mistakes. If you never make a mistake, it shows you're not trying anything new. You're never going to innovate. Because if you never fail at anything, you've never tried anything new. I mean that's, you've heard the Thomas Edison story. Yeah. And he said, no, I haven't had any failures. I've learned 9,000 things that don't work. I guarantee you I've had way more than 9,000 failures. So you really put him to shame on that.

So you really appreciate and encourage failure.

Well, but only, only if you have a well designed experiment so you learn from your failure. It'll keep repeating willy nilly trying stuff. But first you, first you start, do I have the capability to succeed in this new endeavor, and does it have the potential so I can make a difference? And then if you do that and design the experiment so you're going to learn if it doesn't work, why it didn't, just like Edison did. Okay, I'm not going to do that anymore. I see what's wrong with that. So I'm going to try new things.

I'm curious, what's the skills you wish you would have learned? Whether that's, I don't know, a new language, a sport, a philosophy style? Is there anything you wish you would have learned in your life that you haven't learned? For me, I'm learning Spanish right now because for the last 20 years, at the end of the year, I think, what do I want to keep doing that I haven't done? Because I'm scared of it? And so I'm finally going all in on practicing. I've got a teacher that's teaching me three times a week, and I'm doing the best I can, but I'm going to commit to it for as long as it takes. And for me, I feel proud of just a little progress I'm making, even though I know it's going to take a long time. But are there any skills like that you wish you would have learned?

Oh, yeah. No. This is one I desperately need, and we all do, is people who are negatively motivated, who are bitter and are destructive to themselves or others. How do we reach them? How do we. And the only way we reach them is find out what's driving that. And they may not even know themselves. So to help them, to find a better way to help them find that. And that's what my daughter's working on, help them find that so they can become contribution motivated and believe in themselves and succeed. That's what we are woefully short in society as a whole because we think we got answers and it's not getting any better.

So you wish you would have learned that skill sooner?

I know. I wish I'd learn it now.

Yeah, I hear you.

I mean, we have some success, but, boy, to make a difference in our society, we need much, much more success in empowering people. And the only way you do it, you cannot empower somebody. You can help them empower themselves. And unless they're willing, they see the benefit of it and they're willing to go through the hard work. This is what Maslow said. This isn't instant pudding. This takes sweat over time. And so for somebody to do something requires three things. Because dissatisfaction with your current, including getting out of bed in the morning, dissatisfaction with the current state, a vision of a better state and a path to get there. And so that's what we need. We need those three things. We got to convince people of those three things. You got to be dissatisfied because there's a better way for you. And here's a path to get there, but in a way that they can internalize and believe in so they're willing to make the effort.

I 100% agree. And unfortunately I've learned that it's very hard when people are in a okay situation or even a bad situation or a good situation for them to want to create drastic change. It's almost like we need a shake, a wake up call, a near death experience, an injury, a sickness, a death in the family for us to then say, this is not what I want anymore for my life. I need to create a new path moving forward, which for me is unfortunate because I wish we had the, the tools to accelerate this when things are not great, but we can manage it when they're good, but we're not seeing the ability to really grow. So that's why I've got a few final questions for you. But this is why your book is so important for people right now. Believe in people, bottom up solutions for a top down world. Because you're really teaching the principles on how to do this for yourself and how to empower and inspire other people your life, whether it's your immediate family, your business, your employees, your team, whatever it may be. So I know that this book has incredible principles. I've bookmarked a lot of the pages in here and the principles you have taught from your life. Very powerful. From all the people who are the leaders in the world that you mentioned in here and featured here and the lessons they're teaching as well. So I want people to get this book. Very inspiring. I have a few final questions for you. This question is called the Three Truths question. I ask everyone a hypothetical question at the end of every interview I do, and it's called the Three Truths. So I hope, Charles, you're, you're around for many, many years. But I'd like you to, I would like you to imagine you're 100, you're as old as you want to be, you're 150 and you're still contributing to the world in a massive way. And you've written 10 more books. Whatever you want to do, you continue to achieve your dreams, but for whatever reason, it's the last day for you. And for whatever reason, hypothetically, everything you've created, this interview, your books, all your content, has to go with you to the next place, wherever you go. And you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all the lessons you've learned, that you could only share these three lessons with the world. That's all we'd have to remember you by. Again, hypothetical question, I'm curious, what would be those three truths for you?

Well, it starts with Spinoza's philosophy that God reveals himself through the orderly harmony of what exists. And whether you believe in God or not, if you want to say nature, that's fine, call it whatever you will, but it is an ordered universe. All these truths are interrelated, and the reason they're true is because some other things are true. So these truths are the same. I mean, we come up with these disciplines, Economics, philosophy, science, okay, they're all independent things. No, they're just because our minds are too feeble to grasp how they all interrelate. I mean, take the second law of thermodynamics, which I'm sure you're studying, probably reading about every day. I'm just kidding. Only a nerd like me would come up with this. I realize this, but the second law of thermodynamics is. It's called probably the most important law of nature. It's been called the arrow of time. And it is, in a closed system, entropy increase. That's uselessness and chaos. For example, you have a glass here and you've dropped it, and you had those molecules in a form that you could use, you drop it and break it. And now it's going to take energy and knowledge to recreate that. And so you're going to consume those. So entropy is increased because you've had to waste those to create that new glass. What does that have to do with the other disciplines? Well, you find that that's true not just in nature. That's true for you as an individual. If you're a closed system, you close yourself off from the rest of the world. You try to do everything yourself, and you're going to fall behind, you probably die quickly. And that's true for an organization, and that's true for society. So what does that tell us? Tells us things about immigration, tells us things about free speech and open inquiry. It tells us about trade. It relates to Ricardo's law of comparative advantage, division of labor of comparative advantage, when that started to be allowed practice, rather than everybody having to do everything themselves. That's when prosperity started to take off and poverty started to decline in the 18th century. So I can't give you three truths because truth is of a whole. And so that's my truth. And so I've spent my life trying to understand how it's ordered and how I can take advantage of these laws and apply them to make my life better and everyone else's life better.

That's beautiful. When would you say you feel the most loved?

Right now. And you know why? Because we're doing more to help other people. We're more effective at it. We're concentrating more because with, with my state of mind and my mentality and my gift. In most of those decades, I was working on this before we got stand together, we built this philanthropic community I was focused on, okay, I'm going to teach the theory. I'm going to, you know, and support people who are teaching the theory and showing the examples through history. Well, that appeals to certain percentage of people. But for most people, they want to see how it helped Joe transform their lives or help Sally transform her life. And when they see that, wow, this works, I've seen it work. You should have met Sally before. She's a different person. And so that's why we're having this success and the appeal to so many people across the whole ideological spectrum and getting people to work together and getting more and more people focused on bottom up empowerment.

I love this. I've got one final question for you, Charles, and before I ask the question, I want to again remind people they can get the book believe and peoplebook.com, go check it out. Timeless principles. Great stories. Some other great stories you have about how you have really trained your children in some interesting ways to become better human beings when they were growing up, which I found were fascinating. How to be a parent with your type of status and your type of wealth and really how to raise great kids. Just timeless principles and wisdom in here on how to become a better human being and empower the people around you. Make sure you check this book out. Believeinpeoplebook.com Charles, I want to acknowledge you for a moment before I ask the final question. For your continual desire to help other people, especially at your age, your continual desire to be a lifelong learner as your dad trained you to be and taught you and inspired you to be. You're living that principle that he gave you so many years ago, 80 years ago, when he taught you that your consistency and humility, your consistency and joy, the fact that you are joyful in contributing to people, for me, is really a great example. You remind me a lot of my father. So it's been a pleasure to sit across from you virtually, and hopefully I can come to Kansas someday and we can connect.

Yeah. Well, it's a treat for me. I mean, you and I seem to be on the same page.

I know we can have a discussion.

That you say we're sparring.

No, no, no. I believe in people as well. I'm here to serve. That's my mission, to reach 100 million people weekly.

Well, thank you for doing what you're doing.

Of course. Yeah. My final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

As you know from the book, my two number one heroes are Frederick Douglass and Victor Frankel. And that's because they, in the most horrifying conditions, one, a slave in a Nazi death camp, dedicated themselves to helping others. That's what. When Frederick Douglass was allowed to teach Sunday school, he had taught himself to read at age 8, and he started teaching others, the other enslaved people, to read. He says, at last, I found a way to contribute.

Wow.

And then he did. Once he escaped and he became a social entrepreneur, well, he found his gift once again. All these elements are these for these people who are great people, all the elements we've been talking about. He not only dedicated himself to others who had been enslaved, but then in reconstruction, to get rid of the injustice there, but then to eliminate injustice for all others. Against women who had virtually no rights and against certain immigrants who were being persecuted and discriminated against. He fought for justice for everybody and without vengeance. And this was the case. So to me, the greatest people who are those who have overcome the greatest obstacles and then fighting against these kind of injustices, not to punish those who had committed them, but to have a world where these injustices cease to exist. Those are the greatest people.

I love that. Charles, you're an inspiration and very grateful for your wisdom. Your time. I know your time is very precious and so grateful for you and your definitions and. And all your stories and lessons. Thank you, Charles.

Thank you. You were great bringing them out. You. You're a master at the art here, my friend. I hope. I hope you get hundreds of millions of viewers. Let's go for the.

Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm in. If you want to learn more about how to make master your mind, check out this next video right here. We're all faced with great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. And we are at that point, that nexus point in our evolution as a species. So then you don't try to fix that. That's never going to work, what you do.