CELEBRITY Explains Why EGO Is The Enemy & The DANGERS OF FAME | Rachel Platten & Lewis Howes

I had no money and I would give my money. I would make $100 from a gig and I would give $50 of it to a homeless person. And it was that act of faith that money is an energy. And that flipped my mindset. It still took years to make millions of dollars, but I haven't changed my mindset. I still believe that money works the same way. I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. Very excited for my good friend, Rachel Platten, in the house. Good to see you. Hi.

I miss you.

I miss you too. I miss you a lot. I miss you a lot. We both have very busy lives. You're a mom, you've got music coming out all the time, you've got books coming out now, and we're in the middle of a pandemic, so it's like there's just a lot of things happening. Yeah. And I wish we could see each other more, but I'm so glad that I have this podcast that gives an excuse for you to come on and talk about so many things. One of the things that inspires me the most about you This is incredible, is that you have been committed to your craft for so long and it took you, I think, 13 years roughly until you actually made really anything with it. It took so long. I mean, you were running around in trains and buses and vans, sleeping in vans, trying to like just get three people to watch you sing and perform for years. And then you almost give up. You write a song. It doesn't take off right away, but then it starts to take off and now you really start to hit your groove. This is what inspires me about you, guys like Andy Grammer as well, who just like show up for the art and the love of it. When did you realize that-- Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, of course. 'Cause I think it's really hard for artists or anyone who's creative who has a dream or has a passion. It's really hard for people to make a living out of it. It's easier than ever with the tools that are available, but it's hard to get people to like buy into your creative dream, right?

Yes.

And you experienced this for a long time.

Yeah.

And I think you were 23 when you started doing, performing in front of hospitals, right? Like going and just like doing it for the love of it.

Yes.

To bring joy to kids. And then you were touring for years, but no one was showing up, right?

It was just like, no, like 10, 10, 15 people maybe. I was begging people on the street, literally, to come. Beg you, Deb. Please come in. Yeah, yeah, I'd go to a city and be like, okay, I'm gonna do a tour. And then we'd show up at the city and pray that there was an audience at all. And sometimes just stand outside the venue with flyers and be like, you, wanna.

Come see some music? If we collected 10 or 15 people, we'd feel really good about it. When was the moment where you were.

Like, wow, I made it. Or do you feel like you've made it yet? Oh man, I've had like different moments of it where I felt it and then it's fleeting and I think that's the thing with basing your happiness on something external in general is that it never lasts. So I've had moments where that like hunger and need to be approved of and loved in like a mass level is kind of reached, but I only rest there very quickly before I'm like, okay, well then who else can I compare myself to? Now what else can I reach? What else can I do? That wasn't enough. So I think if I'm being super honest, I don't think that I've felt like I've reached my full potential yet in what I'm supposed to be doing in this world with my music. But there have definitely been moments where I probably, if I was being kinder to myself, I would be like, Rachel, are you kidding? You definitely made it when you did.

X or when you-- what was that first moment where you're like, wow, is this really happening to my life? Was it singing in front of a big stadium? Was it your song being played on a radio a bunch of times? Was it like, oh, that's a good question.

Was it hit the charts at a certain number? Maybe when it was number one on iTunes, I think I hit that, like, that was so unlikely, you know, happening. I was like 31 at the time or 32, and I had been trying, as you said, for so many years, and it seemed like such a ridiculous thing to try for? Like, why would I get a number one? How would that happen? Number one on iTunes. Yeah, I mean, that was this thing back then, too. Like, five years ago, Spotify wasn't the thing. It was like, you know, and I had kept visualizing, I think we talked about it this last time that I was on, but I kept visualizing these certain things happening. And as we all know and have heard lots of times through your guests, obviously that is real and that can happen and manifesting is real. And we can talk more about, like, the flip side of that later. But I was manifesting these very specific things. And when those started happening one by one, And I think I was like, oh, okay, I just received my plaque for it being platinum. I'm number one. I think maybe singing, I think singing with Taylor at her stadium shows was like the real thing that I was like, okay. This is 60,000 people. They know the song. They're singing the song. They're doing the thing that I visualized in my dream of like seeing their fists in the air. And no, this is the moment that I really manifested.

When was that the first time you were on stage with Taylor or at her stadium?

It was, I don't know. It was five years ago maybe? I think five years ago.

2015.

Yeah, I think 2015 in the summer, like June-ish maybe. Wow.

So how did that even come about? Did she call you? Did her manager say, hey, we want you to perform? Was this like, I haven't talked about.

This in so long. I used to be asked about only this for so long. Really? I think it was, let's see, Fight Song was already climbing. I think it was number 10 or something. So it was happening. It was on the radio, yeah. And it was approaching number one on the radio. And that all happened within three months of it first getting played on the radio. So I went from total obscurity, no one caring, no one knowing, to two months later playing on stage at the Radio Disney Awards and winning awards and then it like then a month after that singing with Taylor. So I think the thing that no one really or that I don't talk about very often or explain is that everything happened so quickly that it was really unnerving and ungrounding and confusing and and we can go into a lot of that too like but it was a very bizarre change of life from like playing in my van to 10 people, 15 people to 60,000 people within three months.

So what? What was the most you'd played in front of, I guess, on a regular basis?

--Actually, I'd opened for Andy on his tour.

--Andy Grammer?

--A couple years pre yeah, a couple years prior. I had a moment before Fight Song that probably only hardcore fans might know. It's called this song called Thousand Ships was on the radio, and it was climbing, climbing. And this was what led to me writing Fight Song was the pain of what happened. I had this So I had been working for, I think it was like nine years at this point, touring independently, and then I went to Sweden and I took my little singer-songwriter thing that.

I had been doing in New York City.

And they're like, I'm gonna tour over there. No, no, no. Someone sent me, a manager had a vision for me and he was like, let's take whatever this Regina Specktor-ish sound is, let's send you to Stockholm, like the epicenter of pop at the time, and let's combine that like quirky indie singer-songwriter thing with actual like pop delicious goodness. And so I went to Stockholm and took that sound and I had this producer there that turned it into a much more like yeah, just marketable like worldwide thing. And so I came back with these songs and an indie label was like yeah, no this is great. Let's put this out. And I was oh great and then indie publicist and then all of a sudden one of them was like let's do a radio campaign. That was beyond that was so much bigger than anything I'd ever heard of. So this little song, I was like, you know, the little engine that could, just started climbing out of nowhere. This song called A Thousand Ships was climbing and climbing and all of a sudden major labels started paying attention and we're like, how is this artist beating our artists that we've paid millions of dollars for? Or hundreds of thousands, I don't know. And so it's getting attention. I got to open for Andi because of that song. And so that audience was around like 600 to a thousand maybe.

So that had been the biggest-- It.

Was a big jump from like 30 to, 30, yeah, that was a big deal, playing to his 600 or 700 people. And then quickly to wrap that story up, basically that song was climbing and I had a major label be like, no, we want to sign you based on this. This is very exciting. And it went really far. They made an offer. And that was my hugest dream at that point, was being noticed by a label. And in my mind, that was gonna justify that I was a real artist. And so I had a record label offer. And then the song started falling. And so my manager came over one day and he's like, the offer's gone.

They took the offer away. It's all gone.

It's all gone. And that, the pain of getting so close and being able to taste this dream that I had worked so hard for and then it completely going away and then that manager left and it was like, everything left. Everything fell away and I had to really start from scratch and come to terms with like, Why am I doing this? And that was where the musicians on call and like singing in hospitals really carried me through was that was always my why. So that's then I started writing. So you almost like thought to yourself.

Like, okay, should I keep doing this? Yeah. The offer is gone. The dream that I had is gone. The manager left. They don't care anymore.

Yeah.

People don't listen to my music on the radio anymore.

Right.

So why am I doing this? Why am I doing this?

Yeah. So you went back into the hospitals and kept doing, you know, and really what I went back to was writing. was really digging into. I had a very smart friend tell me that then became my manager for a little while that told me, Stop trying to warm yourself at everyone else's fires. Go build your own. And the way that you do that is through songwriting. So I realized he kind of helped me understand you're not really writing. Like you're writing one song a month and then deciding that song is good enough. That's not what these other artists are doing. Go write a thousand songs. and you'll get one incredible one. Go build your fire. So I wrote like a thousand songs. Took five years. Oh my gosh.

Four years.

And then I finally wrote Videsong.

Wow.

And then you know the rest of the story.

So when you launch the song, did you launch it independent? Did you launch it with a... Yeah.

I put it out completely by myself. My manager didn't even really care at that point or believe in it. He was kind of like, all right, so I made a lyric video for it someone I paid a couple hundred dollars for and I put it out. And really not much happened.

For like a while, right?

Almost nothing happened.

For like a year, yeah. So you put out this thing, but you had a vision that this was like a hit. When you're writing it, when you published it, when you shared it in the world, you're like, this, you knew it.

Was a hit, right? You felt it was. I believed so much in it. I felt this deeper purpose for it and for me. I felt like this is meant to heal millions of people. I am meant to go, and this sounds really grandiose and kind of crazy because I had nothing going on. I had no reason to believe this. But I was like, I would look out. I had, you know, this apartment with a beautiful view at that point. And I would look out at the Hudson, and I would just, like, see the moon over the water. And that was where the line, like, a small boat on the ocean. It was originally like a small boat on the Hudson. And I would look out at all that water and be like, I have a bigger purpose. I know I can feel it somewhere deep inside. I could feel. So it doesn't really matter what is around me or what I'm seeing. Like, I would.

I would hold tight to that faith inside because it was.

Bigger than me.

But how do you stay motivated and excited when you launch it and it doesn't go anywhere for a year?

Dude, I don't know.

How do you like, you put this dream out there, you're hard on the, you know, out in the world, and then it's like, okay, it's okay. And then how do you sustain your energy for a year to stay positive and then it pops?

It wasn't a sustained line of constant positivity. It was dips. And honestly, I'm asking myself that same question now. Like, I really am. That's funny, but I'm like, who was that girl? And what did she believe in? How do I remember that tenacity and that level of faith and that level of belief? Because I'm, in a way, back at a similar, not a similar place, but a similar emotional place. And I'm so glad you're asking me about it, 'cause maybe I can relearn the lesson. I think it was, I think it was, I was doing so much work on myself. I was reading constantly things to fill my soul. I was meditating. I was journaling constantly. I was doing a lot of charity work. I was giving a lot. And I had people around me, a community around me, that that was maybe the biggest piece that maybe I'm missing right now, is like, because we're all isolated right now, but I had amazing community around me of people reminding me Rachel, stop. It doesn't matter what you're trying to go after. It matters what's here and now. It matters this Tuesday night that we're playing in this dive bar in New York City. That's what matters. Let's make these 10 people in the audience have the best night of their lives. Isn't that so true?

It is so true. It's like, It's so true. Be in the moment. When I launched my podcast almost eight.

Years ago, I remember saying like, I.

Just want one person to listen to this. And if I can impact that one person, you really mean it? I mean, I wanted millions to listen, but I was like, that's the truth. if I can impact one person and get one person to listen to it first and change their life or impact them in some way, then hopefully they'll share it with a friend. And then the next episode will be two people and we'll see where it goes. But I was like, if I can just create something for one person to improve them, that was my mentality. It's still my mentality. Like when I'm interviewing you right now, I think about who is the mom who just had a child a year ago who's really struggling who maybe they had a career, maybe they had a dream, but they're just going through a challenging time. What do they need to hear to help them?

It makes me emotional because you're so right. It's all that really matters is that one person that's affected and touched and we let our egos get in the way and have all this fear like, oh, it needs to impact millions of people. No, it really, it doesn't. It's the same. We're all connected and who knows the butterfly effect of how that one person who's Life is changed by hearing that we didn't give up or whatever, and maybe she's gonna go treat her children differently that day, and maybe that, who knows the effect that's gonna have. And the fact that we need more is like, it's just, you know.

It's challenging, 'cause I always want more. I always want more.

I always want more.

I know.

I'm like writing a song, I want more, I want more, I want. It's interesting that balance of like, ah, being okay with where you're at, and grateful for where you're at.

And striving for more.

And striving for more is a really tough thing. Dance.

How have you been managing that as a mom? You had a tour, you've been talking about this openly where you had postpartum depression, a lot of anxiety, stress, overwhelm. I love your Instagram posts because they're so real because you'll say, For a week, I'm all in as a mom. I'm mommed up, right? And then my creative side is not fulfilled. And then the next week, I'm all in as an artist, singing, creating, writing music, producing. and then I'm not feeling like I'm there as a mom the best way I could. How are you, what have you learned in the last year from touring, to producing, writing, and being a mom, about how you're gonna move into the next year of motherhood? And be the creative artist if you want to with those dreams?

I don't know. It's a really tough, I'm glad you're asking because I don't know. I don't know, I'm still trying to find that balance. You know, today I feel, A tug of guilt that-- Just being here. I'm not there. You know, I'm not with her. I didn't get to pick her up preschool today, and I know her little face will be sad when she doesn't see Mom there. And like, and yet, I have felt not fulfilled artistically the past three weeks because we moved houses, and I've been all in, like, with her. And so I've known that my, like, this is so good for my artist soul today to be here. And I don't know. I don't know that Mom's ever figured that out. Like, I would, maybe I can hear from Mom's listening, like on advice. And I think it's compassion for yourself and like awareness around all of it, you know, and just the, I think bringing awareness to it is the biggest thing of just seeing it all, like the John Zabatkin thing, like noticing, noticing, oh, there's guilt. Oh, there's unwanted, there's unfulfilled passion still when I'm with her. And there's, and that maybe that's okay.

Yeah. What would you do differently going back starting your last tour, knowing that it was a struggle? Oh my God. Like every day, so hard. You've gotta show up and be bubbly and fun for 15,000, 20,000 people, however many people are there.

Yeah.

And you're depressed, essentially, and stressed, and you're figuring out breastfeeding and being a mom, new mom, like what would you do and tell yourself a year ago.

If you could do it again?

Would I have to still do the tour? Doing the tour. Okay. What would you, how would you, and maybe it, No, a friend of mine-- you- need to go through that as a mom.

You are so right. That is the biggest piece.

Maybe it's not like you can't eliminate it.

It's so right.

You just need it.

No, that was like my real dark night of the soul last summer. Was the darkest it's ever gotten for me was having panic attacks, being out on stage with an arena full of people, and having a panic attack right before I went on stage. Because, yeah, I can't control anything and my breast milk is diminishing and I'm gonna have to give her formula and the guilt over that and like, oh my god, what would I tell her? I think I would, I would just say the hardest things are the things that change you, they always have been. The worst things you go through are the things that give you the strength to then maybe write a song that will then change people's lives. I think that's what's happening right now. I can feel that. Transmutation happening in me and I'm right mid process so maybe we'll talk again in a year after that music has been written. But like I know that there was there was a purpose for all that and I know that the awareness and like I was a how do I say this? I got to see my shadows really deeply.

The dark sides.

I really didn't know that stuff was there.

What were the dark sides of you that you never saw? Or that you finally saw?

How controlling I am, how selfish I.

Am, in life, or with every person or every situation.

I think with my career, how I moved from a place of deep faith with the universe, with the divine, before Fight Song came out, to a need to control every aspect, and how I stopped truly being the light that I am once I let the industry and I started believing the hype of like, oh, you're so... I hear thousands of people being like, you healed me. How confusing is that? I'm sure you wrestle with it too. You're like, oh, am I special? Oh, no, maybe I'm special. Yeah, but that separates you from God and separates you from your higher self because you start buying into this belief that you're the one doing it, that you're the special one, and that's so dangerous for us. And so I started believing it and not treating people like I want to treat people. And being, it was never maybe as bad as I think it was because I've gone back and like made amends actually and be like, I am so sorry. Was I being a d*** at that award show when I was, was I dismissing? And some of my closest, you know, people in my life at the time were like, maybe it wasn't as bad as you think, but I do, I'm glad you're giving me that apology and thank you. And it's kind of shocking that you're understanding how it might have seemed from someone else's perspective.

You weren't like the evil witch of.

The industry, but you were a- I'm a kind person. But I got mixed up with, like my boundaries weren't good. And so because of that, I was allowing things to happen that then I'd lash out. Rather than being like, oh, that doesn't feel good for me, and honoring speaking up and being okay with saying no to things, I'd say yes to everything.

And then get resentful.

And get resentful, and get really upset, and then it would come out in shadow behavior. There's so much to that.

What's the thing you're most ashamed of?

I was on a world tour. It was either Japan or Australia or somewhere. I was just the worst version of myself. I was like, no, it was in London and I was exhausted. I hadn't slept. I was having, I didn't know what they were at the time, but they were like panic attacks. I thought they were just, I didn't know what it was because I didn't have a therapist at the time. so I wasn't sleeping and I was jet lagged and all those excuses fine, I can give myself excuses but I was acting so badly like I want to give myself kindness right now cuz I'm ashamed and like it's hard to talk about but I was just rude like I was being rude I was canceling things and I was like totally ungrateful and they'd come in and be like this is your schedule today and it's busy from 5:00 a.m. until like 11:00 p.m. and I was like Cancel this, cancel this, cancel it. And people had worked really hard for all of this. Preparing, preparing. And I was like, no, like, no, I don't like my glam. I don't like that. I don't feel good. And I feel fatter. I feel just coming out in all this like not okay behavior when what I really wish I could have done was look at like, holy crap, 23-year-old me wouldn't believe she's in London right now. I would dream of this. People wanting to talk to me and hear from me. So I'm not, especially proud of those moments.

How do you get back to your center of, you know, being that joyful, loving self?

I think that I had a major reckoning. This whole year and a half has been it. Maybe two years. Right before I had my daughter, I put out an album called Waves that I love and I'm proud of, but it did nowhere near what the album before, Invite Song and Stand By youy had done. It sold thousands of copies, but it wasn't selling millions of copies. And because I was basing my total worth on my career success and results, I was really ashamed and really disappointed and looking to lash out in blame, like, Whose fault is this? And who didn't do a good enough job promoting me? So that was my initial thing.

Wow.

I took a trip to Israel with friends and I had been growing more...

When was this?

Right before I got pregnant with my daughter. So like, I don't, a year, two years ago?

Like 2018? The anniversary. 2018?

No, the March 2018. My album came out 2017, I think. I hope I'm getting this right. And 2018 I was like, I'm so lost. I need to go shake something up, something needs to change. And I had friends at that time who were very spiritual and religious in different ways, and I was really disconnected from all the belief that I had before, that I'd had and carried for 15 years of throughout sustaining my faith in myself. I had kind of just made my career my god and just, you know, I forgot it and that's what was happening. It's not totally true because I had a beautiful altar at home and I was meditating and still aware. I mean we had our interview and I was definitely aware but there was shadow behavior that I wasn't looking at. So I think I recognized that something needed to change and I went with my friends on this trip. And when I was there we climbed Mount Masai. I hope I'm getting the name right. the Trail of Tears. And at the top of it, first of all, being there was a really incredible experience because I was Jewish and I was there with a lot of Christian people. And it was so look, it was able, so I was able to look at Israel with a very interesting perspective. And anyway, we climbed this mountain and at the top of it, I just had this moment of sobbing and like this big, I don't know, it was like this huge, Reckoning where all of a sudden rather than blaming God, I had deep gratitude and I realized with my friend's help that it was a gift My record not taking off the second record was a gift. It was all for me. It was because that's not who I was supposed to be in the world. I wasn't supposed to be another pop star if I was gonna lose the truth and the light in me and it was a gift and it was like We're sorry, you know, I heard this from my team, it was kind of like, I was meditating, it was like, we're sorry that this is hurting you, but this is necessary. You need to get back to who you are before you can get bigger.

Do you think that album would have been different if you didn't lose that part of yourself?

Yes.

Really?

Of course. But at the same time, I needed to go through all that. Like, I need to go through it because the music I'm writing now is so powerful. I can feel the truth of it. I can feel the stuff that I used to write about is back. I want that crown again. I want the crown of being the, I was embarrassed by being the Fight Song Girl back after. Why? 'Cause everyone was like, 'cause I wasn't getting festivals, I wasn't cool, and I was getting turned down for things because they were like, oh, it's like the Vanilla Fight Song Girl, and she's hopeful, and people would be like, that's the whitest s**t I've ever seen, which is really funny. It is. Right, right. You know, it's like white girl goes to the city and like, please in her dreams, and I get all the stuff behind it, but at the same, I'm aware, but at the same time, I know it was changing people's lives, and I was I was unable to tap into that part of it because I wanted, like I said, I wanted.

To be like-- Recognize in the industry in a different way and be like, yeah, I want to chill with this and that and like be in the scene.

Yeah. I wanted to be nominated for Grammys and be respected by the industry, not made fun of by like-- Didn't you win a Grammy? No. I'm one of the other words. Emmy, yeah. Emmy, yeah. I mean, how ridiculous that I'm like-- you-'re one of another word. I wanted another award. Yeah, right.

I know.

Man, aren't we funny with ourselves? But yeah, I know I wanted something different than I had. You know, I was like the grass is greener thing, and I had all my dreams and I was selling millions of records, but I wanted to do it in a different way. And so my album was like, that second album was, there were some songs on it that were still really true to who I am, but then you can kind of hear there was some music on it, the sounds on it mainly. I think if you boil any of those songs down to just me on the piano, they're my truth and they're my lyrics and they're beautiful. But maybe the songs and the way it was crafted around it was like, I was trying to like put a jacket on it that could let me play Coachella and like be like, no, no, I can do that too. I'm cool.

Right. So now you feel like you've gotten back to that place of like, I'm.

Gonna only be who I am. I don't care.

Accepting who I am.

I don't care. All about being cool. Oh my, I'm a mom. Like I just, what? What is it, what is cool even? I just wanna be me. And I just want to make music that's, and I want, yeah, I said I want that crown back of that, let me be the person that people look to for inspiration and hope. Like, what a beautiful thing. How could I ever take that off and not want that? And now I'm hungry for it. Let me be that again and let me feel, that is my divine purpose here, is to bring healing through my music and not only healing but inspiration and also identity. Like, I feel like my role is really to remind us who we are, who we truly are. And I want that back. I want that more. I don't know how to say it.

There's gotta be a song around losing yourself and finding yourself.

Oh, I'm writing it. Oh my god, yeah.

Now, something I know about you from the last interview is you talked about the power of visualization. You've been talking about this a little bit how in your 20s you really saw yourself on stage with 60,000 people. You saw yourself singing these types of songs. winning the awards, getting platinum records handed to you, you visualize this and they all started to come true. Has there been a time where you stopped visualizing?

Yeah, absolutely. I stopped visualizing after all of it happened and it wasn't making me happy. And I got really confused because I was in London lost, not enjoying what I had manifested. And so I was like, maybe I don't know what's best for me anymore. Who am I to ask for things when they're not even making me happy?

No. So you visualize these things, they come true, and then you're not happy.

Yeah. And so then I started visualizing, I think before I had my daughter, I moved into this place, I think it was after the Israel trip, I was like, I just want peace. I just want, I just want happiness, I just want joy, like lasting joy. I don't want the conditional faith that's, you know, in these sky highs and low lows. I just want, A constant level of contentment and okayness with myself in the world. And I don't know what's gonna bring that. So whatever you want for me, that's what I want now.

Wow. Okay, so are you visualizing now, certain things?

I am again though, because I think I needed to rest a little bit in that. And now I'm back to being like, oh no.

What's the dream now?

I want to be a household name. I don't want people to just know Feist Song. And to have to be like, oh no, she's that girl. Do you know that song? No, it wasn't Kelly Clarkson actually, it was this girl Rachel Platten. I want people to know my name, and I want to have more fight songs, and I want to have a lifelong career. I want to be releasing music in a decade and music that I really believe in, and I want to be playing arenas. I mean, I got to do it last summer, and I want to continue to be able to do it, and I want to grow and expand, because I think that's what's natural.

Yeah.

Expansion is natural. and growth is natural.

That's true. Do you think it's harder for an artist or any creative? I talk about it in business as well, or authors. Do you think it's harder to make a hit and get successful, or is it harder to stay successful?

Oh, such a good question.

Because it took you 13 years until you really made it in a sense, until you're like, okay, people know my song, this is a hit. It took 13 years. I was so much pain and energy and joy.

Yeah.

To get there, is it harder to get there or is it harder to stay there and continue to grow there?

I don't know. I'm maybe, I mean those 13 years were painful, but it was also the hustle was kind of fun. And I wasn't lost and there wasn't like all these, you know, I didn't have to go through the reckoning that I just went through. That was horrible. Maybe staying there. And maybe I think it's not even staying there. I think it's staying who you are there.

Because no one prepares you for those moments.

No one tells you like three months.

Where you have nothing and then you have everything. And no one tells you.

There's no training. No, and I tried like media training. That was like the extent of what my training was. I needed training like fame training. Like here's how it's gonna feel when people stare at you and want to take your picture. Here's how it's gonna feel when everyone tells you that you're better than everyone else. Here's how to not get lost and no one tells anyone that and maybe we can, maybe we can, I don't know.

What would you say to someone who's an artist who's got a big dream, who's got to launch something, they want it to be huge, they want people to know their name, what would you say about how to not lose yourself when you become famous in your industry or in the world?

I don't know but sometimes I can see it now and someone's like about to hit and I know them and they're like Getting that like, you know, like and I feel it and I'm like, oh my god, I want to hold you so badly because I see that you're starting to let your ego lead and I and I can see you losing yourself because I lost myself and I and then but then you're like, oh am I just like jealous? Maybe that's that word is it coming from like competition or is it like I think my higher self is like, no, I want to protect them, but I don't know. I think I would say you need such a deep spiritual practice and you cannot waver and you need to keep the people around you that are not gonna be yes people. Like, I think that's the really dangerous thing that happens with fame or, you know, people knowing you is that you have everyone who works for you around you all of a sudden, it's not your friends that you're surrounded by, it's people that you're paying. And so everyone's just gonna tell you that, like, your behavior is okay. And I would say, like, and sometimes people's parents even become yes people to them. Like, I've been around Famous friends whose parents are very much like an assistant, you know to them and it's gross so I think that having Friend partner whatever it is who's really gonna look at you and keep you accountable might.

Be a what's the biggest lesson your husband's taught you throughout this journey of hitting fame because he was with you when you were nobody and then you hit fame and then you had a years of success, launch another album, it doesn't do the way you want it to, have a child, postpartum depression, anxiety, stress every day. What's the lesson he's taught you in the last five years of all this happening?

That I'm lovable through all of it. That I'm lovable. That I can love myself the way he can love me and that it doesn't matter what comes or goes, he's just loved me.

Really?

And always seeing who I really am and helped me to stay grounded as much as possible. You know, when you're flying sky high and totally ungrounded, like he was trying to bring me back down, but it was an experience I had to go through myself. I think.

Yeah, that's interesting. What do you really admire about him the most by being able to stay in a positive state with you in these last, these ups and downs, these five years. What's the thing you admire the most about him?

He's so grounded. He does not get, he gets excited when the exciting things are happening, like when I released the book and it was doing well and when, like, you know, the song came out recently, we get excited and he'll like buy into it for a second and be like, baby, like, but he's so, he's just so him. He's so himself. He doesn't ever act differently. He's never trying to put on a Kevin, that someone else will like. He's not changing who he is and trying to people please. He's just Kevin and it's awesome. And sometimes it's a little unnerving because I'm like, can you just be a little bit, act a little, you know? And he never will, he's just himself.

That's good. That's good. Have you ever felt like an imposter in the last five years?

Yeah, all the time.

Really?

Oh my god, yeah, definitely. Award shows when I'm wearing a ball gown and have glam on and I'm like, And I just, maybe the age difference too, that I was always like 10 years older than the girls that were people that I was coming up with. I know I look young, so it was often like, people would be like, wait, what? You're 35? Like, what? I thought you were 22, 23. So maybe that was a little bit when I was hanging out with Taylor and all of her model friends, and I was like, what am I doing here? I'm such a dork. Or also, I want to be having deeper conversations. then not that they're not deep, they're beautifully deep, but like just the whole like thing of it, like oh let's all wear cute things and hopefully get paparazzi, like that's not who I am. I think I felt imposter syndrome all the time. Especially when you're getting, oh my god, one very funny moment. Tell me. This is so good. I might have done a post about it. I'm usually that person. I was flying home from New York or something, this is like, 2018, like the height of me thinking I was something. And I was flying home and I got off the flight and had glasses on. No one cared, no one was recognizing me. And I was like, oh man. No, people sometimes did, but I'm not nearly the level that I wanted them to. And I landed at LAX and there was like paparazzi and that had happened and I was like, oh, like okay, whatever. Like hey guys, just like a couple shots. And they're like, Amanda! Amanda! And I'm like, Amanda? And they thought that I was a real, like a housewife.

Shut up.

Yeah, they had no idea who I was. It was just like, and my assistant was like, it's Rachel Platt. And they were like, who?

Wow.

So funny.

So it was not-- They're like, oh, take the camera down. They didn't turn. And the crowd was like, no way.

So good.

What did that do for you? So good.

It was funny. I had enough of a sense of humor at the time that I was like, that's really funny. And I think I called Andy, Andy Grammer, and I was, he's my always like my check-in of like, you know, we consider ourselves siblings in this industry and I call him and I was like, Andy, you're never gonna believe what happened.

He's like, oh my god.

Wow.

How do you move into that in the future by handling imposter syndrome? What do you think you can do to support yourself to be able to live your authentic self Step in a big moment and not feel like an imposter or do we always feel like an imposter at some time when we've never been to that level? Is there a stage that's too big for you that you could feel like, what am I doing here?

It's different. Okay, when I'm in my truth, when I'm performing, I never feel like an imposter. Even when I was on stage with Taylor and 60,000 people, I didn't even feel like an imposter then. A really big, this is where I'm supposed to be. You thought you belonged. I felt like I belonged. I felt like, yes, because it didn't feel like it was coming from my ego. It felt like a way deeper thing that was happening. I was emitting light. People were receiving the light. People were remembering their identity. It was a beautiful energy exchange. I never feel that way when I'm on stage or writing a song or in a moment that has to do with my music directly. It's the stuff around it. It's the red carpets and the paparazzi things and the things that go around with what you're supposed to do with celebrity. That's the stuff where I'm like, the f***. Oh my God, can you bleep that? I feel so bad. I'm sorry.

Don't worry, it's authentic.

It's not good.

What do you think has been the main keys to your success then? To getting to where you're at now? If you could go back to just the whole life, what do you think it would be?

My light. I can own that. I know that I have a humongous light that shines when I let myself be me. You asked me right before this, I loved the question, what would make this podcast the most powerful experience right now? And I said letting my authentic self be, like not trying to put a mask on or come off a certain way or say something to impress people or you. What if I just am totally honest in myself? And so far, yeah, it feels pretty good. I'm doing that. And I think that is my ability with my music, and that's what people see and recognize and are drawn to in my social media, in on stage, in my music that they listen to. I think they're hearing me in this permission to let myself and all my shadows and all my light be seen. Let just my truest me be seen, and then it gives people permission to see themselves and say, oh, Rachel is owning this part of herself, this imperfection. And if she's doing that, then it's okay. Then I am this imperfect, flawed human, too. And so I think that's what's allowed me, and that's what people are drawn to. Would you say that's true?

I don't know if we ever see ourselves totally clearly. Well, I think when I hit 30, I started to open up and kind of shed the masks. And I'm still probably always going to be doing it, but I'm so aware of it when I have a mask on or if I'm injecting Right? Whereas when I was pre-30, I was just living to impress. Me too. And now I'm like, okay, if they don't care about me, then I don't know, maybe it makes me more interesting that I'm such a mess at times or if I'm saying the wrong thing or whatever, or if I don't look perfect. And so I'm just so comfortable in my imperfections. I'm so comfortable. Me too. With being embarrassed now. Me too. I don't enjoy it, but it's like.

Okay, I feel fine.

I'm not gonna die.

Exactly.

Like my career is not over if I have an embarrassing moment or if I go through something that I'm ashamed of. Like, it's not, I'm not gonna die.

It's okay. It's actually probably the where you're gonna get the most light, light, lights. Exactly. Not lights. Light. It's probably, you know, like those are the cracks. And now I can recognize those moments of like, I've had enough of them. Like, even my postpartum was something that I heard from millions of women being like, thank you so much. That was an exaggeration. Thousands of them, sorry, I'm just checking.

Myself, not millions of them.

The world, everywhere here. I don't know. I heard from thousands of women being like, that was, thank you so much for talking about your postpartum on stage. I've never heard it talked about in public. Thank you so much for doing that. That was surprising and I went through it too and I didn't know what it was or I felt embarrassed about it. So it's like those things that we can recognize now, like, I don't, embarrassment.

To me, it's never really been a thing. You're good at leaning into embarrassment. Like you've had a new post about it, like you, I think you mess up the words of the Star-Spangled Banner.

Which I still don't know what they are, but you- Definitely. So embarrassing. Was it a baseball game or a football game? By the way, I was pregnant, so I'm gonna give myself a little, like.

Grace, and I couldn't tell anyone, but.

It was still the most mortifying thing I've ever gone through. But that was actually- It's great for your ego.

So good for me, it was such.

A humbling, 'cause that was another moment I didn't even freaking- Soundcheck that day. --I was like, I got this. --I was like, I got this. I've done this so many times. I sang it as a solo, I sang this at a way bigger thing. I just did the All-Star Game and the, you know, World Series. This is a stupid soccer game. I'm fine. I don't know what my mindset was, but I know I was really lost. Really, I was in the beginning of my pregnancy and really sick and also.

Like, so part of not going to Soundcheck was like, I'm throwing up, I don't know.

--Right. --Just like, I got this. Like, no big deal. --It was like, I'm good. --I've been on stage with Taylor. Come on people, you know? --It was a little bit, of that. And I think there was a big humbling, like, you still need to put effort and, you know, and respect these opportunities. Otherwise, this is going to happen because. And it's not even like a punishment. It's more just there's going to be pain when you're not grounded in your higher self. When you're separate, there's pain.

When you're not connected.

When you're not connected, you're going to feel pain. And that was the lesson there. Check in, connect with yourself, like. ground, you know, let my higher self in, connect with the divine. Otherwise, I'm gonna feel pain because I'm gonna think that it's all in my shoulders.

There's gonna be some negative result or some result that you don't like.

Yeah.

If you're not connected and present and prepared.

I think prepared is a big one, yeah.

And even if you're connected and prepared, ready, you still might make mistakes.

Yeah.

But you're more likely to make more mistakes if you're not connected. If you're not present.

And the mistakes when you're all of those things are gonna be okay. I'm on stage now and I'll still be all those things. I'll have meditated, I'll have checked in, I'll have prayed over the show and all the people there and prepared and practice and warm up my voice and I'll still make mistakes. But they'll be okay because I'll laugh at them with the audience. I'll be like, oh my God, I.

Just messed up the words there. Did you guys see that? It's almost like in the last 10 years pre 10 years ago, it was like you, everyone had to put out this perfect image of who they were. And I think social media now, people are seeing through that. If it's only all perfect stuff, it's kind of like, can we relate to someone who shows only the best?

Yeah.

And I think there's a balance of, like, okay, showing stuff that we're happy about, but also stuff that's we're struggling with, and it makes us more connected to people when we do that. So I think you did an amazing job.

What's the I agree with you, not about me, but about everyone showing their insecurities more. It's like you can see through it quickly.

You can. It's always this perfect image.

It's like, okay, you're not perfect. No one's living life like that. But we still get confused by it. You know, I'll still look at an account that's like all the highlights and still compare my, you know, behind the scenes to that and still feel pain from that. So even though we know it, When we're not so conscious of it and we're just allowing our limbic system to like run and being in fight or flight, we'll like be scrolling and we'll feel pain and it will hurt and we'll feel like, oh, I'm not good enough.

Do you feel like in the last year when you were on tour, being a new mom and dealing with this anxiety and depression, did you feel like you were dealing with a case of mental health and learning how to master your mental health? or do you feel like this was just a period of time because you were a new mom? And what did you learn about yourself and mental health during that time?

No, it was definitely a mental health thing that I was going through. And recognizing that and allowing myself to finally say, this is bigger than just becoming a new mom. I'm having panic attacks. I'm struggling with something that actually has a name, it's postpartum anxiety. giving myself the permission to name it was then allowed me to get the help that I needed.

So, I-- what happens when we don't name it?

You aren't giving yourself the permission to heal. Like, you're keeping it in the shadow, and you're-- and it's just this amorphous thing, and then you can blame other things or other people, and like, I think naming it is so powerful, it just brings awareness to it, which is bringing light to it. And then you can start to be supported in the way that you need to be.

Do you feel like you're on the other side now of that?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Thank God I'm way, I can feel myself again. I can feel myself back to who I am again. I found my light again. But even after six months, I was like, I'm healed. I was not. It took a minute. Also some of that is breastfeeding and the hormones you have to regulate. I breastfed until she was a year old. Once I stopped, that was when I was really fully able to like recover my hormonal balance, 'cause you're still then producing for what your baby needs. But it was a mental health thing and I think women don't feel permission to name that after having a baby 'cause you're embarrassed about it. And the truth is, if you need to take medicine, if you need to have therapy, if you need to give yourself permission to heal, You need to be able to name it so you can give yourself all those resources and not just be like, oh, get it together. Like, what's wrong with me? Or call it the baby blues, which is what a lot of women confuse actual postpartum with, because there is a thing where you get a minor depression after the serotonin of birth wears off. But postpartum is something very real, and it's different than that.

Do you know any moms who, their first child, that they're just happy all the time in the first year, or almost every mom that you've met have some type of panic, anxiety, stress, postpartum depression.

Not every mom has that extreme of like having to, something that's called postpartum, but I think I do not know a single mom that hasn't had the shock of what the f just happened. My sister and I were talking last night and she's like, her friend just had a baby and she said, her friend called her and said, Melanie, this is horrible. Why didn't you tell me? And Melanie said, 'Cause I needed you to join me. Because it's terrible. And none of us tell each other. I mean, A, you don't wanna scare women that are pregnant.

Like, the last thing you're gonna do.

Is- yeah, the baby is amazing. The last thing you're gonna do is be like, oh, by the way, like, you're ready for the worst hobby of your life. Get ready for the worst hobby of your life. But also, you don't know that that's gonna be their experience. And just because I don't know anyone who's had a totally blissful experience, it doesn't mean that there aren't.

There probably are.

And maybe someone listening is like, I had an incredible first year and that's good for you.

Or maybe after your fourth child you're.

Like, okay, now I know what's happening. Definitely after, at least your first child, the shock, well I think you have to birth yourself as a mother too. And that is-- A whole new identity. You go from maiden to mother. I mean, I could talk about this for a long time. You lose the, it's the death of who you were and the birth of the mother.

And it's a gigantic reckoning. There's two births.

Yes.

The mom birth and the child birth.

Yeah.

What is that like?

Oh my god. It depends on how much into the, I mean, I don't know how deep you wanna go with this, but I think for me, I was in a place where I was depending so much on other people because of my career. I had went from like all hustle, all independent, feisty doing this myself. I was my own booking agent and lawyer and tech person and publicist. Carried all my own hundred pound of piano. I'd like lug it upstairs and and then I had everyone doing everything for me. I had a personal assistant literally attending to everything and it was it was very disempowering and so then my birth into motherhood was really hard because I being a mother is owning your power and owning that you know best and tapping into your intuition and trusting that intuition for your baby and you cannot look externally for those answers. I tried really, really hard. It didn't work. It didn't work until I started trusting and realizing no one knows better for Violet than I do. Wow. So mine was steep.

How do you, I wanna shift for a moment about the creative artist and around the topic of money. Because for many years you weren't making a lot of money, right? Is that fair to say?

10? Oh, making no money. Yeah.

10 plus years.

Yeah.

What are you making on average years? Is it tens of thousands?

I was supplementing it with singing voiceovers, playing clubs, like playing cover of clubs. Maybe like, maybe I was making 20,000 a year.

40 grand a year. Maybe at your height.

As an indie artist.

You're lucky. Yeah. You're scrapping around. Yeah. You're eating leftovers everywhere you can. You're sleeping in the van. You're doing what you can. How do you navigate now financial wealth? as an artist, like quickly within a year, two years time from 20 grand a year to, I don't know, I'm assuming millions when you start to get the bigger contracts. How do you navigate that emotionally, spiritually, mentally?

Well, I changed my mindset around money before I made money.

That's smart.

So I haven't really changed my relationship to money since that big healing I did.

What'd you do around money before you made it?

It sounds a little crazy. I had this, I found this app. I think I read some Law of Attraction book around money. --Secret or something? --Something like that, or one of those like Napoleon Hill ones, and I really believed it. And so I-- --Think and Grow Rich. --Yeah, something like that. And I really took it to heart and I started to practice it. And so I did this long before Fight Song hit. This is when I was still very broke. I just started, it's a little embarrassing. I'm gonna share it with you. --Sure, I love this. There was an app I found, this is 10 years ago, I don't know if the app is still around, and the app was a fake checkbook. And I'd write myself a check for $30 million, and then I'd spend it. And I'd be like, oh, $10,000, I want that microphone. Cool, $20,000, I'm gonna rent this thing. Dope, I'm gonna get my hair colored for $500, 'cause I couldn't afford that in real life. I'm gonna go on this $20,000 vacation, and I would just write, it was a game.

I'd game it, really.

Like a mental game. It was a mental game, and then I'd do this thing where I'd like, Someone told me or some other app I found was like for 17 seconds if you can really stay in the vibration of that you are a millionaire and I would do it and then I'd do it daily and obsessively and then I started giving money away. Like I really went all for it and I know this is a terrifyingly stupid thing if you don't believe in this. Like people listening are like what? But I would just give money to people. I had no money and I would give my money. I would make $100 from a gig and I would give $50 of it to a homeless person that I'd see or like I'd leave $20 in a tip jar when I had no money. And it was that act of faith that money is an energy. It is not what we think it is and that flipped my mindset. It still took years to make millions of dollars, but I haven't changed my mindset. I still believe that money works the same way. So now if I'm feeling a little bit of lack, which I did recently, we bought a really expensive beautiful house, and my husband and I were both like, oh, shoot, I'm not touring this year. There's no touring right now. Uh-oh. Did we just overs- and I realized I went into a little bit of a lack mindset and he was like, well, we can't get those hedges that you want. I know this is like privileged problems, but it was real for us. I wanted these hedges. And he's like, oh, and I realized that I had reintroduced a fear around money again. And so I did a little meditation with myself to reintegrate that belief that money is an energy and now I imagine just like God or whatever you believe in the divine writing me a check. And so when I just imagine the exact amount that I want, what do you do?

It's fascinating. I love it.

It's fascinating. I love it.

I think there's a lot of similar things that I do as well. And I think people need to hear this because whether you believe it or not, I think It's important to have a mindset around it to be able to be open to attract it. It doesn't mean it's going to get.

Checks in the mail the next day.

Mine didn't. Mine took a couple years. It doesn't mean it's all of a sudden going to happen, but it's not going to happen if you're not thinking an abundant mindset. If you're thinking scarcity all the time, why would money come to you? A mentor of mine told me back in the day when I was broke, I was working for him as an intern. I think I made $500 in six months. I was working out of a closet in the kitchen. Learning from this business, but I was happy to be there and it was the agreement we made because I had nothing and I was like, Let me learn and I'll do whatever. And at one point we did a walk around the neighborhood probably six months in and I'm like, Man, I could really use some money. I'm pretty broke. Yeah. And he goes, Money comes to you when you're ready for it.

That's true.

And I was like, I feel pretty ready for it, man. I could have the money right now. But he just kept reinforcing like, Money will come to you when you're ready for it emotionally, spiritually, mentally, physically, And if you get money too soon, too much, and you're not prepared, you're not ready, then you're gonna blow it. You're gonna spend it the wrong way. You're gonna abuse it. You're gonna become a bad person in the act of using money. And so I think it's really important to have a great relationship around the idea of money before you have it. And it sounds like you did that. So you would focus on this every day. You would spend like a minute in the day or 30 seconds in your mind.

I think in my lowest Point when I, after I'd lost the record possible contract and I was, I would obsessively do all of this. I would play in hospitals two times a week and that's because it brought me joy. I would meditate, I would law of attraction, I would go to sleep envisioning these things that I wanted. I actually did, I told my friend Kelsey recently this that I had never shared with anyone. I might as well share these really weird manifesting techniques because they They worked. And forgive me if they sound crazy, but I would play the applause of a stadium in my tiny one-bedroom village apartment with cockroaches. I would blast the sound of a stadium and I would close my eyes and take bows as if I had just performed. Like I would just be like, I love this. Thank you.

I love this. This is amazing.

I'm so embarrassed.

I love, I think this is all stuff that I would do as well. I would envision myself as an athlete Scoring the touchdown in front of a full stadium. I think you hear all these baseball players imagining when their kid getting up at the bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, they imagine swinging and hitting a grand slam. These are stories we need to tell ourselves. We need to envision the results we want, otherwise why would they automatically happen to us? We need to do these over and over. And I think that's really powerful you did that. I think everyone should create a game for themselves, whether it be in your- Make it fun.

Make it fun. I made it fun.

Mine was silly. I'd laugh at myself after every time.

You put the music out loud and people cheering and bow. I would, Mabell, thank you.

Thank you so much, everybody.

Good night. It's amazing. And then it would last. The feeling would last. I'd open my eyes and I'd be in my tiny apartment, but I'd still feel the my- because Time is not real, you know, and who I am now is the same as who I was then and it's all on a spectrum anyway and I would in some part of my soul knew that that was a reality that had just happened or that was going to happen. So it was almost like I put myself into that other, you know, dimension and then got to stay in that dimension and would go to my gig for 10 people and feel like you guys are lucky, you know, like youe've seen me before. Yeah, I did sometimes believe that. I did. I had, not always, I'd also have nights where I'd just feel embarrassed and feel like, oh.

There's two people here that are not even watching me.

I'm like, no! You're like eating salad, like, or chips or whatever and watching a game and.

Not listening to me. And, but... You're putting your heart into this. You're like, I just drove 18 hours.

To be at this little dive bar. Those were hard. And no one cares. But you know what? My mindset was still and I'm so glad to talk about this because I need to remember these techniques myself. Maybe not of the, applause because I now know that I can play in the arena, but that's not necessarily what brings me happiness. It's the permission to truly be me and to write the music that is from my heart without the voice of the ego or the judge coming in and saying, this is too cheesy or this is too this. But anyway, my friend who I would always tour with early in those days, he would say to me, he was so wise, his name was Craig, he would say to me, My drummer too would say, Rachel, the party is on the stage. It's for us. Let's just have the best night we have, we can. Let's just play for each other. Whoever wants to join our party, awesome. This is for us. And so it wouldn't matter. We'd have the best night. We'd play for 10 people and they'd have the best night because they'd feel our infectious joy. And I would say that to my band this summer. Even when I was having Panic! At The Disco right before going on stage, I would I would be able to have so much fun on stage because I'd remind myself right before I went on stage, this is for us, you guys. Like this is not for the thousands of people whatever out there. Let's have the best time. Let's play the best we've ever played. Let's look at each other and connect and remember that we were once those kids in vans carrying our own pianos and now look where we're about to play.

--Wow. That's inspiring. --I think it's always important for us to remind ourselves of where we've come. --Yeah. and the years of pain and suffering and challenge and stress and not making it and being broke or whatever it may be, it's important to remind ourselves that.

You're right.

Yeah, it's funny you say that, that those were some of like the greatest times as well, like just hustling and schlepping around the country.

It was fun.

You know, having the courage to go up to someone outside 10 minutes before you go on and say, Hey, come on in, come watch, there's no one here. Come watch, it's free, right? Just to get like three people there. 'Cause you learn so much about yourself in those times. You learn a lot about yourself. What would you say is one of the greatest fears you have right now? Whether it be in your career, mom, marriage, money, what's the big fears?

That I will somehow mess my perfect daughter up. That I either by, and I will, of course. You know, she signed up for me to mess her up in exactly the way that only I can. But she also signed up for all my love and, you know, but so yeah, that's one of my biggest fears and I'm gonna do something and somehow that's gonna scar her and she's gonna have to talk to therapists about it in the future and I'm sure she will. And my other biggest fear is that I'm done, that my career is, you know, that's something that is like a deep, deep-seated fear that I know is, that's my ego. It's not real. Like, 'cause when I Really listen and go deep? I know I'm not, but yeah.

Well, why does it seem like a lot of people have that fear? I remember interviewing Steve Aoki and asking him his fear, and he said something similar, which was around, you know, not being relevant anymore.

I remember that. I remember listening to that one or.

Listening to the clip of that one. Did I have, like, my biggest hits already? Like, are people gonna think I'm gonna be interesting? Are they still gonna show up to watch me perform live? Are other artists gonna wanna collaborate with me? Why do we fear staying relevant? You know, I could look at myself and say, oh, there's some 23-year-old postcaster who's blowing up or whatever. Are they going to be more relevant?

Yeah.

Why do we think that way?

I think it's our, I mean, obviously it's our ego. You know, it's our need to belong and be approved of. And part of it's biological. It's like you need to, you know, be part of the herd and be accepted. And that's that's how our limbic system works because that's how we stayed protected in caveman times. So I think that's biological. But then I think right now the way that social media is and the way that we're telling each other that we matter is through how relevant we are and how many likes we are and how many followers we have. That's a really dangerous thing to do to an artist or someone's creative little tender vulnerability to say, Actually, I know that you just poured your heart out, but it doesn't matter unless everyone else tells you it's good. And so I wonder how many people are not listening to what they truly might be able to tell the world for fear that they won't be liked enough or it won't... I can ask myself the same question. What would I do if I were fearless? What kind of music would I make if I was totally fearless. And maybe I'll take that from today and I will actually, not maybe.

Someone triggered a question in me, must have been a few weeks ago. I can't remember who it was, Kai, but this isn't me saying this from my own thought. But someone was saying something like, what would it be like to act knowing you were going to fail? Because a lot of us don't act because of the fear of failure. What if we acted knowing This is going to fail miserably.

Whoa.

So what would you do knowing it will fail miserably because you love it, you enjoy it, and accept that no one is gonna care. It's going to fail. Would you still wanna do it? Wow. So many of us wait. I was talking to someone earlier today. I was talking to someone earlier today. She's been wanting to write a script about a movie for 10 years and she hasn't been able to complete it.

10 years?

10 years. She's been like, It's ruminating, thinking about it, wanting to get to it. And I was like, why? And she was like, the fear of failure, but also the fear of success. Like, what happens if it is successful? And then I got to rise to that occasion and stay there.

It's like-- Did she say that? She said, then rise and stay there.

It's kind of like, it's kind of what happened to you. Like, you got successful, and then it's like, we got to stay there. Yeah. Because people are gonna think about us.

And we drop back down. Yeah, you can't lose it.

Like, how embarrassing is that? I don't know where I was going with that, but I was just- no.

It'S such a good question.

I mean- But it's like, what was the song that you would write and put out there knowing that no one cared?

I think I would make a lot more spiritual music. Like, I think I would talk more about my relationship with God and not be afraid of how much, like, how powerful that- I have a song that I just wrote called Let Go, Let God, and in my mind, I'm never gonna release it. Because like, that's not-- I don't know. Because I don't know. I feel like maybe I'd be judged for my-- you- will be talking about it. Knowing you will be judged.

I will, and it might fail.

It probably will. I mean-- I just wonder. I'm gonna think about that.

I'm gonna go home and think about it. I love it.

Yeah, and maybe it's not a now thing.

Maybe it's a later thing. And maybe it's an ever thing, but it's just something to think about.

Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I'm gonna-- I'll probably release that song. I'm gonna think about the question though, what if it fails? Like, I think it's amazing. That question is amazing. And I want to examine it and understand what part of why I do this is because this all gets confusing because part of my soul is like, no, you're here to expand.

Don't be great. Don't change the world.

Influence. And influence not people in an ego way, like I got caught up with, but influence people to be their true selves. And you have a lot of this here. Yes. You have a massive light to share. You've been given it because you are supposed to spread a massive amount of light in the world. So part of me knows that has nothing to do with my ego. So it gets a little confusing in there.

I know. I don't know. It's like having confidence but staying humble. It's like the balance of believing in yourself to be great, but also not losing yourself.

Not losing yourself and not, oh, you know what? Maybe it's not thinking that it's just you.

Knowing that it's-- this is me, my.

Stuff doesn't stink and it's all me. It's not you, it's the divine coming through you no matter what you're doing, in what you believe in, it's Source, it's the universal life, it's Chi, it's Prana, it's whatever we call it. There's something, I don't care who you are or what you've done, you are tapping into that whether you know it or not. And it's thinking that you're separate from it or that it's you that's doing it.

That's when I think it turns from confidence to Ego.

Ego. Do you think so?

I agree 100% when we start to believe that, you know, it's tough because there are, in sports, you'll see two types of athletes, two extreme types of athletes who are great athletes. After they win the game, you'll see them getting interviewed, the star person, and the reporter will ask him like, How'd you do it?

Right?

They'll say, you, did amazing. You just won. How'd you do it? and you'll see two types of responses. One is the, I give all the glory to God. And it's like a look up, it's a praising God, Jesus, whatever it is that is your God and belief. And it's like, I would not be able to do this without that. And then you see another type of response, which is like the, you know, Conor McGregor, Mayweather, Muhammad Ali response that says, I am the greatest. I am the greatest. I knew I was the greatest. No one can beat me in the world. I train so hard, I put in the reps, I have no doubt that I am the greatest. Both of them win.

But I don't know that they're different. At least in Muhammad Ali's sense, I know he was a man of very spiritual spirituality and faith. And the claiming, we both know that claiming I am is a phrase of the divine. And what we claim after that is our truth. And so I don't know that they're separate. I think you are invoking the divine by saying, by me sitting here and saying to you, Louis, I am an incredible songwriter. I am a powerful source of light. I, you know, I am special. I am. It doesn't take away, that doesn't put me in ego unless I start believing that there's nothing else helping me get there. So, I don't know that they're that different unless it's a person who is obviously so disconnected that they're harming people with their beliefs or acting in a way that's out of alignment like I talked about that I had been and starting believing their hype and being and treating people badly.

True, true.

But I think if you stand up like Muhammad Ali and said, I am the greatest, F, yeah you are like. Yeah, he is.

For sure.

He wasn't he influenced massive people, massive amount of people and it could be argued that he ended the Vietnam War with his humongous protest and we don't need to go into that but yeah.

For sure, for sure. So were you saying before that you're thinking about releasing this A spiritual song or do you think or you know?

I mean I guess I've been playing it for random people that I know have done it.

You've never thought about putting it out there?

No, not really. I didn't even send it to my.

Publisher or manager because I was kind of like they'll make fun of me. It's interesting. I don't know if you know LeAnn Rimes. I do, yeah. Well, I'm not well. Even know her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She came and spoke at my event last year, Summon of Greatness, and I asked her if she would do some type of Spiritual Healing Song. And she's like, well, I've never really done this, but there's been something I've been wanting to do. Like my heart's been telling me to do, which is more of like this meditative, spiritual, soulful sound that has like a meditation and it's it's a song, but it's it's more of like a...

I get it. You know what I mean?

It's a different thing.

I have the same calling.

And she started the event. She was the first one on stage. and she sat down and she did this unbelievable, it was like the whole room was crying, opening their hearts. But it's not her traditional pop star personality thing. And I was like, you need to do more of this. I don't care if it's not number one on iTunes, you're changing lives and it's fueling her soul. She loves it. And she's doing more of it now. I think she put out some stuff online recently.

Oh, cool. I'm gonna go listen.

But you should connect with her. I feel like artists should do more of the things that they love as well. Knowing it might fail miserably.

And that's okay. You keep doing the other stuff that.

You know is gonna keep you alive and make you money and have a good time.

But I have to stop you because the other stuff is also that for me. Of course. So the music that I'm writing when I'm on the piano and I am, it is me. That is actually my thing that Leanne Rimes was doing. Yeah, I have this calling, but it doesn't feel like my truth as much as these These powerful anthems. Anthems that I am pouring, yeah, like that I'm back in and wanting and writing right now in my home studio and screaming at the top of my lungs. Like I know that those are my.

Things that she just did. That's cool.

So the other thing that you've lost.

Yourself trying to do other stuff.

I lost myself. Now you're coming back. Yeah, I might sidebar eventually and do a meditation album, but that's not what my purpose is on this world and how I'm meant to use my light in the most big the truest way.

Right, that's cool. Do you think you'll ever not be afraid of being relevant? Do you think you'll ever be like at peace whether you're in mainstream culture and relevant with hits or year stretches of like not as relevant, will you.

Ever be-- I think that I will. I actually do. I really do see that for myself. I do. I think the path that I'm on, how much I've grown, even now that fears lessening. Even the permission to be on stage of summer and talk about my mental health issues was, you know, even releasing the song that I just released, which I'm so proud of, I wasn't trying to put out something that was like cool at the moment. I was just trying to put out something that I thought would be healing for the world right now that touched on what we're going through. And I was more, I was a little confused why more artists weren't speaking to the time that we're in right now. And so I was like, well, I want to. And regardless of what happens. And actually, maybe I did have that. understanding this might fail. This doesn't sound like, you know, cool Dua Lipa song right now or something. And who cares? I'm proud of it.

So I do something called soldiers, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's a great song.

I think it's a great song, too.

We don't have a music video, though, do you?

No, I'm mid trying to figure out how to make one and what to do.

Yeah.

Like, how to safely do it and. And what concept you even do, because in. I don't know. In the beginning, I'm not on a label right now, too. And so all of this comes from me.

--So it's independent. --Yeah.

--So you just say, okay, I'm gonna put this out on Spotify, iTunes, and all that. --I do this independently on my own label, which is an amazingly empowering thing. --How does that work? Is this the first time doing that? --I did it with youh Belong, the song that inspired the book. --Book, yeah. --And that was the first time I put something on independently since long ago. And the permission to just put out what you want without the label telling.

You-- Approving of it.

--Is so freeing. It's also scary though, because the whole relevance thing comes in, like without the big machine, even though I have followers and listeners and I have an audience now, I don't have access to the same things that I did when I.

Was-- Right, the distribution, the marketing, the PR.

--Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think it's like, now I am putting things out with the awareness, like, This might not do as well commercially because I don't have the machine behind me, but at least I get to put out what I love and I get to own my masters.

--Interesting.

--Which artists don't own.

--You don't own fights on Master.

--No.

--So how does that work? You put out this massive hit.

--Well, I own it.

--You write it?

--Yeah. I pretty much wrote it by myself. So there's another writer on it, but he was only there for the first day and then it took me two years to write it. So I have most of the publishing. --Two years.

--Two years to write it.

Yeah. --Okay, so you have most of the publishing? --Most of the publishing. So there's, you know, a song is 200%, you have the masters, 100%, and.

You have the publishing 100%.

So I own most of the publishing. --The masters, the label owns the masters. --They own 100% of that. --Yeah, which is really bad and it's dangerous and if any artists are listening, --Man, they're making money off of me. --Careful what you're signing. If you were about to explode and you're listening to this, Know that you have the power and I will never make that kind of a deal again. Hopefully, I'll be in a position where I can do a 50-50 share of my masters in the future.

Of the master. And that's more fair then because if they're putting the effort behind promoting it and launching it in radio and distribution, then that's a fair cut in your mind. So if you're publishing it and you're writing it and you have another writer and you can get 50 to 70% there, You get 50% of the publishing, you keep 100 to 125%, then you're like, okay, that's good.

I already feel very grateful for how much I get from Fight Song. So I don't want to be greedy in it, but it's more just like an energy thing. I think the music I'm making now, I'm not an unknown anymore, so now if I went to a label with songs that I felt were fire, like, no, no, no, this is it. I don't have it yet. I'm in mid-writing them. So I don't have them finished yet to send to anyone to be like, I am ready. But I can feel them bubbling. They're in, they're being made, they're being created, they're there, like they're little seeds and they're like coming, they're starting to form. And when I'm done with those, I will feel that I have that power to go to someone and be like, this is going to be humongous. Do you want to get on board? This is how you can get on board. And I'm gonna listen back to this podcast and be like, what was she talking about? And be like, Does anyone want this?

When do you know that you've written a hit? Like when do you know when once the recording is done that you're like, this is it? And has there ever been a time where you're like, this is it, that it didn't turn out to be that?

Yeah, all the time. I think you have to daily believe your hype. I think you have to, every time you end a session, you have to be like, that is the best song I've ever written. That is a number one hit. You have to believe it. It's part of the creation process that actually songwriters talk about a lot. Like there's a meme where the songwriter will get this joke. It's like two co-writers are just talking to each other obsessively, that was the best song we've ever written. That was the best song we've ever written, only the best song. You do that every session. You're like, is this amazing? I think this is amazing. And then like an hour in, you're like, is this, I'm a terrible songwriter. This is the worst thing we've ever written. And then you end the day and you're like, that was good. Yeah. And I don't think you know. You don't know.

I mean, although that's not true, I knew.

With the songs that have really reached people, I knew.

You felt something emotional.

I felt them, yeah. But there was a song that I really knew it about on my last album called Grace that I felt deeply like this is meant to be something very healing and very big, and it wasn't. I mean, it was in a movie and it was listened to by whatever 40 million people, so maybe that's it.

You thought it'd be bigger.

I thought it'd be bigger and I think maybe part of it was the thing that we talked about way earlier in the conversation where it was a thing that was a gift. Like not having another humongous hit was a gift so that I could come back to who I am. Have you ever seen an artist who.

Puts something out, it does well but not as big as they want in the first year and then three years later it pops?

Yeah.

Is that a possibility for people? That's a good question.

You ever seen that where you're like.

Oh I wrote this song like Seven years ago and now it's gotten this movie where people actually I'm sure there are those stories.

I don't know them firsthand, but have you heard of them?

Nah, I'm curious.

I think that that's something that is common.

Maybe this thing could pop at some point again.

I actually do believe that. I actually do believe that maybe that album will be revisited when my next album is a huge success. I'm gonna own it.

You got to.

I have to, yeah. I think that there is definitely stories where like artists or writers have written a song and it's gotten passed over for years or put out by one artist and then another artist records it, like Whitney Houston records it and all of a sudden it's yeah.

It's a thing.

Yeah.

How do you manage not doubting yourself on a daily basis? Like how do you believe in yourself enough to continue to go forward when it doesn't always go your way? Do you have a process for helping yourself overcome self-doubt?

Oh my God. I'm like so in it right now.

Especially as a mom, and you're like.

Oh, I'm doing this wrong, and this wrong, and this isn't working. I just did it this morning. I mean, I wake up every morning, like lately. I'm really in it right now. I wake up every morning with like a dull level of doubt. I also think it's the collective and what we're feeling. So those of us who are really sensitive and also in a position of influence were feeling it more. so I'm feeling daily like I have to shift myself. This morning I woke up just with like a dull level of like meh, meh, meh. And then I read something that would fill me up and I did yoga and I meditated and I did some Kapalabhati breathing and I did some, you know, then I listened on the way here to something that would fill my soul. I mean, I did a lot of work. It took two hours and to get myself back to my light.

Wow.

So I think it's daily work for me.

If you didn't do that work, where would you be?

I'd be in a really different place or I'd be really, really different position right now. I'd probably be trying to impress you. I'd probably be exaggerating and like not admitting my vulnerability because I think that I have something to protect. And I think that's when darkness gets a real hold of us, when we think we have to start covering up and exaggerating and like, then you can't be yourself. But right now I feel so confident with like sharing any embarrassing thing with you.

How do you maintain a daily time practice as a mom? I think there's a lot of moms out there that are like, I have no time to even give myself 10 minutes of meditation or breathing. How are you able to manage that? And what advice do you have to other moms? on making sure they do a little bit of practice. Because I feel like if you don't do any practice on a daily basis.

For yourself, you're gonna be empty. You know what? When I'm really deep in momland and like not getting a break and I don't have a nanny for my day and I'm really grateful to be in a position where I have help and I have a husband that's really supportive and co-parents beautifully, but when it's all me and there's days when it's all me, I'll read a book with her, a meditation book with her and we'll do deep breathing together. No way. Yeah, there's a little book called like Breathe Like a Bear and then there's one like one called, like, breathing makes it better. And we do deep breaths, and I'll sit around my lap. And I've done this multiple times when I'm overwhelmed and, like, feeling panicky back when I was still having postpartum and I'd feeling a panic attack and she's on my lap. We would read a meditation book, and I would start doing deep belly breaths of, like, expanding my diaphragm horizontally so that, you know, the Prana can really flow. And. And we do it together, and I'd say, Violet. Okay, the bear takes a deep breath. Can we take a deep breath? And she go, and we do deep breathing, so.

So integrating it with your child.

Integrating it with your child, yeah.

It's beautiful. If there's one lyric, one line in all the songs you've written that represents the last year for you, what would that sentence be in any one of your songs?

Oh my, what is that horrible question? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, have you ever asked other artists this before? This is so tough.

First thing that comes to mind of the last year you had, all the different ups and downs.

Leave me something from grace. What is it? I used to wear love like an army. I used to know nothing could harm me. Now fear got up into my head. I'm all in my head. And I need grace. I think I need grace for myself, for what I went through. For what I'm gonna go through next and... That's beautiful. I think we all need that. Yeah.

I think we all need grace. I think we all need to put a pressure on ourselves every single day that it's unneeded pressure.

Oh my God, I know. We're so hard on ourselves.

Especially. You guys are machines of inspiration.

Yeah, moms are awesome. Moms are awesome. Moms are awesome.

To all the moms listening, you guys are amazing. It's amazing. We, you've got a song out right now called Soldiers, which is really inspiring. They can go listen to it on Spotify. you have a channel on Spotify. I saw, I saw fight song had a almost over a half a billion downloads on Spotify.

Have you seen that? Yeah, I didn't look at the latest.

That's cool. It's like 520 million, I think. Isn't that crazy?

Yeah.

Something you've created. Yeah. That many downloads. Yeah, that's crazy.

And people singing that song daily. Yeah, I'm so grateful for it. Sometimes I forget to, like, really check.

In and half a billion. I know.

That's wild.

It's crazy. It's exciting.

Yeah. It is exciting.

People should go listen to, if you haven't heard Fight Song in a while, go listen to that. Check out Soldiers. It's on your Spotify page. You also got this book, which is a beautiful book called youd Belong. And it's based on one of your songs as well. I recommend you guys, if you're a.

Mom, go get this.

And when you feel overwhelmed and stressed, you can read this book. To your child. To your child.

Yeah.

And work on some breathing as well. That's right. so get this book, you belong. In the last episode we talked about three truths. I'm not sure if you remember what these were for you, but I'm curious if you have new three truths. I'm pretty sure I asked you this, but I'm gonna give you a hypothetical.

I want to know what mine were a couple years ago.

We'll find out afterwards. Yeah, yeah. This is a hypothetical question, and you're at a different stage in your life right now, so these might be different answers. But imagine it's your last day on earth many years from now. you're as old as you want to be and you've accomplished every dream. You've impacted the world, you've got the family you want, you've got your kids grown up, everything. But for whatever reason, you got to turn the lights off and go to the next place wherever you go. Not in this world. And for whatever reason, hypothetically, you got to take all of your music with you. Your book, your music, this interview, everything that you've put out, it's got to go with you to the next place. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. from your life, three lessons that you would share with the world that we would all have access to. What would you say are those three truths for you?

One that you are divine. You come from someplace bigger. You're going to go back to someplace bigger. And I think this is all one. to that everyone is divine, that you're connected to every other living thing on this planet, and that you are never separating, you are never alone, and that everything you do, everything you do impacts everyone else. And three that are like our biggest job, let me try to not gracefully say this first and stumble over it. Our biggest Responsibility with this gift of life is to answer that calling of what have you been gifted with to share the world? And what would you give the world if you weren't afraid that it would be fail, that would fail or be judged? Give that. Give that in the biggest possible way you can. And don't compare yourself or don't compare that thing in you to anyone else's because yours is unique and yours is special and we need exactly what you have to give.

Mm.

Yeah.

Amen to that. Those are powerful. We'll have to see what the last three ones are, but I want people to go listen to the previous episode we did. Me too.

Let us know.

We'll link it up.

What the other ones are.

We'll link it up so you can see that. Make sure you get the book, you, Belong. Really beautiful book. And listen to the song on repeat.

Soldiers, and share with your friends. Powerful, yeah.

Really powerful for right now. Really inspiring. I'm gonna ask you, I've asked you your definition of greatness before. So I'm gonna have people go back and listen to that one, but I want to ask you a final question. Before I do, I want to acknowledge you, Rachel, for being an incredible gift. I love this part. I'm really, I'm just a fan of you as a human being. I'm really grateful for you. You've been a great friend over, I think, three years since we've known each other. Even though we're busy and have things going on, I just feel really connected to you, and I appreciate you as a human being. And I'm grateful for you for sharing these things, because I think a lot of moms need to hear this. and know that it's not easy and it's okay to give yourself grace. So I really acknowledge you for constantly showing up and grateful you showed up here today and shared everything. And hopefully we'll get you back on soon in the future when you do more fun things. But my final question is, what is a question you wish more people would ask you that they don't ask you?

What other songs have you written? Maybe that. Where can we listen to the rest of your music?

For sure, well it's all on Spotify.

Yeah, maybe, I'm kind of kidding about that. I think maybe, who are you really? What are you afraid of? And yeah, something about that gives me permission to be my real self. Like you asked me it. Yeah. Whatever would trigger me to feel like I have permission to really be me. I don't know what that question exactly would be. Different versions of it.

No, I like that. Being able to open up is a good thing.

Yeah, to be vulnerable and permission that I'm okay as I am and that you're okay as you are.

And what's the thing you're most proud of that people don't know about you?

The massive amount of work I do on myself. To just understand and heal and grow and learn from my mistakes and just get better as a human being. Just constantly trying to, you know, bring more love and figure out the barriers to love.

Appreciate you.

I love you, buddy. Oh, my God. It's so fun.

Pod number two. The pod.

Yeah, the pod. That's right. The pod.

If you want to learn more about how to master your mind, check out this next video right here. We're all faced with great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. And we are at that point, that Nexus. in our evolution as a species.

So then you don't try to fix that.

That's never going to work.

What you do is.