Communication Expert: The #1 Method to STOP Any Argument! Say This When You Get Defensive!

The way that you smooth out communication and the way you find connection is there's really three things. You say it with control, you say it with confidence, and you say it to connect. And when you can master these three elements, you find that you're going to be able to show up more in effective conversations, especially the difficult ones. A trial lawyer, writer and speaker who has millions of followers online who turned.

To him for his powerful and poignant communication tips.

Jefferson Fisher. The number one tool for difficult conversations and how to make sure you have them most effectively is a frame. When you can put a frame around a difficult conversation, you take the difficult out of it. And as soon as you get defensive, you're already starting to weaken your position. You're already starting to lose. It's hopeful when you can begin your sentence with, I can tell. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting sensitive. In argument, in real time, the key is to ask more questions than statements. Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that question so much because there's always a reason that they have for saying, And they may not feel comfortable sharing it until you ask that question.

And what do you think is the biggest mistake you see people making today when it comes to having challenging conversations?

Not having...

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Excited about our guest. He is back, Jefferson Fisher in the house with a new book called the Next Conversation: Argue Less, talk more. Very excited about this, man. Welcome back to the show.

Thanks for having me back, Louis.

Yeah, man. You are a leading voice as a trial lawyer, but also speaker and authoritative figure on how to really effectively communicate better. And a lot of people struggle specifically in intimate relationships. And when I mean intimate, I'm not only talking romantic, but family and friends, I feel like are also intimate relationships. and I just feel like there's a lot of conflict where people have lost the ability and the art to open their heart, listen to someone with a different opinion or a different belief, not get triggered emotionally and be able to respond calmly when they disagree with someone. And you have seemed to educate and teach people on how to do this so effectively in your content and the way you share these messages online. and in your book. And I guess my first question for you is, it just seems impossible for people to navigate these arguments. And it's almost like I either have to give in to keep the peace when someone has a different belief, I don't want to speak up to rock the boat, or I have to speak up and then have this conflict with someone I care about. How can we start to navigate with intimate relationships? loved ones, friends, family, our partner, when we have different beliefs without rocking the boat.

Well, that's a great question. And thank you again for having me. Of course, yeah. The blessing to be here in front of you again. It is a problem that is not uncommon. It's that default that you want to conflict with someone rather than connect to someone. And the way that you smooth out communication and the way you find connection is there's really three things and it's the main formula that I want to share in my book and that I write about. It's you say it with control, you say it with confidence, and you say to connect. And when you can master these three elements, and it's almost a recipe, a formula that I give of how I communicate and how I teach, is when you do these and master these, you find that you're going to be able to show up more in effective conversations, especially the difficult ones, because it's not the last conversation, it's not the last communication. There's always the next one. So when you can master the next conversation, that's when you already have a leg up in the game.

What would you say is the key to any conflict resolution then?

Understanding that everybody wants to learn more about you than you think. So what I mean by that is in communication, there's a sense of, I want you to do what I say. And the person goes, no, I want you to do it. I say. And that's when that fight for control comes. That's when it's a tug of war. That's when you have that, that breakdown. But the line that I have, and it's one of the first things in the book I want I ask everybody to understand is the person that you see is not the person that you're talking to.

Who are you talking to?

Yeah. And so it is, I'm taught, I see Lewis, but, but you're talking to.

A her little boy. I mean, you're talking to her little boy who's reactive or who's triggered. Yeah.

And inside we're all kids. Inside we're all kids with, who've things have been done to us and said to us that we would never tell other people, that we never want to remember and things that, that will always be a very hard road for us to define peace in, but that's the the goal is that you have to understand, I see somebody, but that's not exactly who I'm talking to. Yes, you're talking to your spouse at 8:00 in the evening. The person you see, the person you're talking to is somebody who they're, they got derailed at 9:00 a.m. from a text from someone who put them in the pad. And the, the person who's bringing you your coffee kind of gave it to you late and seemed not to really care. It's the person you see, the person you're talking to is somebody who is worried about their kids who is trying to pay a loan. I mean, there's all kinds of different ways of seeing the other person. And it's this concept that everybody knows that there's a surface and a depth to everyone, but it's injecting that into your communication. If you can only be curious enough to find that other person that you don't see, that's where the growth begins.

That's so hard though, when you're stressed out or you're overwhelmed and someone is like triggered and reactive or defensive or coming back at you, and you're just like, I'm just trying to communicate calmly, but this person's acting like a five-year-old child. When they're an adult, they're grown up, they're. They're a grown man, grown women. They shouldn't be acting this way, especially a loved one. When you're thinking, like, I'm pouring to you all the time. I'm sacrificing my life for you, and all you got to do is react to me.

Yeah.

It's like.

It's hard to be like, okay, settle down. I know this isn't who you are. It's hard when you're exhausted, right? Yeah, I find that it is hard. It's. It's way hard. A key is to ask more questions than statements.

What are the three most powerful questions you should ask when someone is overreactive, stressed out, or overwhelmed in an argument or conversation?

There's one that I love, and it's by our friend Chris Foss, and he says, Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that question so much. It sounds like you have a reason for saying that because there's always a reason that they have for saying it, and they may not feel comfortable sharing it until you ask that question.

Should you say, what is that reason? Or just let it sit?

Usually if you let it sit, they'll say, yeah.

Yeah. And they're gonna- I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm feeling stressed.

Yeah.

Whatever it is.

Exactly. And this one isn't a question, but it's very, close to it and it's tell me more. What else? If you had to put that in the question, it would be what else? But tell me more is one of my go tos because there's always more.

You've got to have such extreme patience to be able to use that because it could go for hours.

It can, it can, but that's just, it's, it's that metaphor of you can't pour your glass into a pitcher that's already full. You got to let them pour it all out before they'll ever accept anything new into, you know, their mind.

And what's the third one?

The third one would be, are you okay? And you can't do it from a sarcastic point. Yeah, yeah. Are you okay? It's, it's a genuine, it's an authentic. Are you okay? Because so many times I, I'm not okay. But if somebody would just ask me, that would make me feel a little bit better.

A little bit better. you know what's interesting? If people could learn the art, because I think it's an art of tell me more, they will have some of the most powerful relationships in their life with the people they can use that with when I'm in a good state and I'm not feeling defensive and Martha's having some type of overwhelming moment or something's going on when I'm able to be there for her and just say, what's going on? Tell me more. And continue, tell me more. Is there anything else? Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Right.

Tell me more about how that makes you feel. Yes. What about this? Tell me more until she's able to get it all out. And if I can be present and patient, there's so much power in the connection afterwards. And for weeks of just like being able to be there for someone and listen, not trying to fix, not trying to coach, not trying to guide, but just listen and say, tell me more. what else is going on? Is there anything else you want to say? Are you sure? What else? It is so powerful. It will change your relationship for the better. And the hardest part for me is to get out of myself when I'm feeling defensive to be able to do that for someone else. Because I feel like I'm not speaking about Martha, but just in general, I don't feel like they're doing that for me.

It's most impactful. This tell me more. mindset is especially when the other person is angry.

Oh, yeah.

If I have a conversation with somebody and they're heated and they're mad at anything, maybe they're mad at me. And I say, tell me more. They'll tell you more. Oh, yeah. And then you keep. Let them go. You go. All right, tell me more. I mean, it's just a continuous. It's. It's therapeutic in a way where you're just taking it in and you're just listening. The hard part is not grabbing a hook.

Yeah, yeah, of course. We're not doing it, you know, it's hard to do it when you're upset or you're exhausted or you're angry or you're feeling your emotions. If you're acting like a five-year-old, you know?

Yeah. We don't ever do that.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, of course.

That's interesting, man. What do you think is the biggest mistake you see people making today when it comes to having challenging conversations?

Not having enough assertiveness in that communication.

Like control, confidence.

Yes. You know, you, you have the area of control of controlling yourself. And by controlling yourself and, and understanding your own triggers, you're better to see those triggers in other people. Step two is saying it with confidence, meaning you learn to say things assertively. You say things that are going to make sure they know where you, stand that you say what you mean and mean what you say. That's a whole lot harder for a lot of people because they don't want to step on toes. They don't want to be very direct. They'd rather type it on that keyboard and put it in a YouTube comment than ever say to your face. I see a lot of that. I want to make sure that I give your folks what I find to be the number one tool for difficult conversations and how to make sure you have them most effectively. differently is a frame. And so when you can put a frame around a difficult conversation, you take the difficult out of it because it's only difficult because we say it's difficult. I mean, other people could listen in on the conversation, go, well, that's not that bad. You just said X, Y and Z. But to us internally, we just, we stew on it. And number one on how to have a frame, frame and difficult conversations is one, you tell them what you want to talk about. It can be as easy as, Hey, Louis, I'd like to talk about what you said at dinner on Monday night. Two, this is the big one. You tell them how you want to feel after the conversation.

That's big.

And three, you get their buy-in. So it could look like the first step being, Hey, Louis, I'd love to talk about the comment you made at the meeting on Tuesday. And at the end of this conversation, I'd love for us to have a better understanding of our priorities. Or maybe it's as simple as, and there's nothing I want to solve or I'm not looking for an answer. I just need you to know this. Simple as that. Does that sound good? Does that work? That's the buy-in part. That's the three of that. All right.

They say, yeah.

And it's kind of like what you just said. Once you can do that and you get their buy-in they go, all right, I can stick with this. Now you have the frame. Now you don't have to talk about anything else. You don't have to say, oh yeah, and by the way, while we're on this, I have this other complaint that I have.

I didn't tell you about. yeah. Three months ago.

Exactly. Oh, yeah. And hey, by the way, stop doing that. It's. You're very, you're very focused. It's the idea. If you have a million issues to talk about, you're not talking about any issue. You're just saying things to say you said them.

What do you think for women is the most attractive thing in a man and their ability to communicate?

Ooh, being generous with your ears, being, being able to listen a whole lot more than you're talking. Being able to just find a way to, if they say that something is wrong, that does not automatically mean that they need you to make it right. There are things that has to have a hash out. I am someone that is an internal thinker. You could say something to me and I'm going to think on it for a while. I'll chew on it. I'm not going to talk out loud.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh man, that's hard for me.

And so I, I, I, I, I don't, I don't process my thoughts that way. I'm just having to talk it out loud the whole time. To me, it wears me down. Wears me down. My personality is the more you talk about emotions, sometimes the more I start to feel them. I'm extremely sensitive to emotions of others. I have the tendency of like, feeling things for them. I have a hard time watching a movie where an awkward moment happens. Like, it just makes me cringe, but it's a good lesson for me. And also understanding that when you can find ways just to hear out the emotion without trying to do anything with it, I think is a very valuable skill. I think it's also very attractive to have a lot of patience and just all things. All things that I just have a whole lot of patience. yeah, man. Yeah. And that's something that I continually pray for.

You can pray for something, but you gotta act on it, too. Absolutely.

You gotta just, like, give it to me. Yeah.

Exactly.

You gotta learn the skill yourself.

No doubt.

Yeah.

You were given the tools. Yeah. You gotta act on it. A lot of people don't like losing in life. They don't like losing games. They don't like losing anything. Anything, right? And they don't like losing an argument, but. you say in chapter one, to never win an argument. Why is that?

When you win an argument, you lose a lot more. Meaning if I say that thing that I know is going to smash, it's. It feels great.

Man, your ego feels freaking like a zing.

You feel like you just got you at a boy.

Oh, you're the just home run.

You're high-fiving everybody down the hall when you finally hit that zinger. Oh, this is so sweet. like, and you text it and you want to show the friend like, oh, you see that? So good. Yeah. And then that lasts for a glimmer.

Yeah.

I mean, and then you wake up the next day and you look at and you go, what an idiot. What I think was gonna happen. What I think was gonna happen. Yeah.

Just they're gonna love me more.

Exactly. This is all going to be wonderful. So whenever you try to win in an argument, what you really win is their contempt. You know, you, you, you. You win another awkward conversation. Congrats. You know, it's, it's, you, you've won now awkward silence when you pass each other in the kitchen. Congratulations. That's, that's the prize, you know? So when you try to win a conversation, you lose the connection, you lose credibility and you lose their trust. And so that's, that's not the point of an argument.

It's something to unravel. What's the best way to create a.

Win-Win from an argument? Often when I can immediately come out of the gate and say, if you can either ask, is this an argument? They'll almost never say no. I mean, they'll almost always say no. They'll say, no, this is just a conversation. But if they're yelling or raising their.

Voice or getting frustrated, they'll flip it.

Almost always they'll flip it. If you say, is this an argument? They don't want to have, nobody wants to admit they're having or stirring or stemming an argument. they'll say, no, no, I'm just, I'm trying to have a conversation with you. That's when you bring it down. All right, can, can we have a conversation?

Yeah.

With you. And now you're, like, slowly bringing them down in that moment. So when you want to win-win it is one, you need to slow down the time. You can add distance between what they said and how you respond. Like some conversations, we're, we're dealing with conversations that cost $100. as a big conversation, but yet we're giving it a penny of our time. That's just not, you have an imbalance there. Or when I'm trying to have a conversation with you on my time frame, not yours. Hey, you got five minutes. I have this, I have this huge thing that's been on my mind for the last 12 hours and you haven't thought about it for a second. I want to talk about right now. Ready, go. Like you're not even at the same playing field. when that happens. So the win-win is when you can balance out. Don't try to have you're at 80% and I'm at 20% feeling in my energy and yet I'm still expecting you to show up and carry the load. That's no fair.

And how can someone communicate with someone else to get exactly what they want without being manipulative?

Hmm. getting exactly what they want. You know, one thing that you said in the first episode that I loved, which I love that this is my second time here. So much has happened since.

That's crazy, man.

What's the chance? Oh, yeah. It's so good. It is so good.

So good. And I. Paul Evans taught me that, like, 15 years ago.

It's such a good one, and it's one I've definitely added to my list. I was just like, man, that's so. It's. It's just asking. if there could ever be the possibility of this to happen, I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm not trying to do anything. And the thing is, people will find a way to do it. Another one that I love, again, this is Chris Foss. I just, once you find like collection of people, they're like, I love what they're doing, is I need a miracle.

I need a miracle right now.

I need a miracle.

That's good.

And I did that. I used this, I was at Target. we were shop shopping, and I, I wanted ice cream so bad. So we got little big pints of ice cream, but there's no spoon. They didn't sell spoons. And so, but we passed the Starbucks at Target, and she was like, no, no, you need to buy some. And it's my wife saying, you need to buy something before you need to, like, steal that. Yeah, the spoons are back there. And so I, I went up. I was like, I need a miracle. She goes, well, I don't know what I can do for you. I said that, but I'll try. I said, I got ice cream, no spoon. And she said, I got it right here. Answered in prayer. Gave me two spoons. And that was just playful, but- yeah, that's cool, man. I need a miracle.

That's great.

People love to give more than you expect.

They want to be the hero.

Yeah.

That's when I, you know, when I said that, I was, I feel like, these three words are the most powerful words to get anything you want besides I love you. And that's what's the chance? Like we talked about what's the chance? And the more you can come from a mindset of what's the chance you can help me out with this? What's the chance I can get an upgrade in this hotel? What's the chance you can get me to first class? What's the chance I can get a discount on this right now? What's the chance you can give me half off? You may not get exactly what you want, But you're creating a playful, open connection with someone. Like you said, what's the chance? Or I need a miracle. Can you help give me a spoon right now so I can eat this ice cream with my kid? You're creating an open heart and a playful way of being to allow for goodness to come to your life. It's not being manipulative, but it's creating an opening for miracles to occur. Even those little mini miracles that just make life enjoyable.

Yeah, just a little mini thing.

And if you can say, what's the chance? need a miracle. Can you help me out?

Yeah, man, you're setting yourself up for success every time. And you're allowing the other person to rise up to, you know, be a hero. Well, to fulfill that, I mean, they, they'll make them feel. It's just, it's a mutual sense of giving. It's the givers, like you talked about. And the reason why what's the chance works, too, is that it is easy to say without feeling like you're being oppressive. Easy to say because it's like, oh, You know, it's not demanding something and it's not super direct is just a little bit left to center that allows allows it to feel okay.

You know what Chris Boss told me after this? I said, say what's the chance? And I go, what else should I say? And Chris Boss said a really interesting one that's like, it could be a little manipulative. Like it could be like, you're like teetering with manipulation, but it is extremely effective as a next step is saying, what's the chance you can get me 10% off this right now? if you got a store, Target, Starbucks, whatever. Can you give me 10% off? What's the chance? If they say no, this is what Chris Boss told me. He said, you can reply with a follow up. So you're telling me you're powerless? What? So it's a little. I don't know if it's manipulative or what, but it's like, so you're telling me you're powerless right now and helping me?

Yeah.

And it's kind of like, because he said, no. Yeah. No one wants to say, I am powerless. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, when you sound, when you have the voice of Chris Voss, you tell me I'm powerless. Yeah, I'd probably go bury my head.

In the sand if you tell me that. But it's almost like another level of, okay, we created playfulness. Now this is like, you're putting pressure on the playfulness. Right. From what's the chance or I need a miracle to. To really need something you're putting that pressure on.

Yeah.

You're saying, so you tell me you're powerless right now, then the person behind the counter is like, Am I powerless or am I powerless?

Yeah, sir, this is Smoothie King.

But it's like, it's interesting though, because if you try it, I don't know if you'd want to try this, but if you try it, so you tell me you're powerless right now. It's interesting the responses you'll hear from people, because people do not want to be powerless. They want to feel powerful and empowered.

Yeah, I could see that. And if you said it from like a playful place, that's better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But shout out to Chris Paul.

Chris Paul, man, that was a good one. This is, this is another question I want to ask you. I feel like I, I've probably been in more arguments than I wish in my life where I needed to apologize afterwards where it's like an hour or a day later, I was like, ah, man, I was a jerk. Or I reacted or I overreacted. Right. I let my childhood wounds get the best of me. And I responded from a fight or flight. So what's the best way to apologize to someone after you said something that you really didn't mean in the heat of the moment?

The formula that I teach is one, the apology. This is the. I'm sorry. This is the. I apologize. Two is acknowledging how they felt by it or how they would feel by it. That's as simple as I can understand why that's upsetting. I can see how that hurt you. I can see that that was. thoughtless of me. So it's relating it, it's acknowledging the feeling. What you're saying in that moment is how you feel is reasonable, how you reacted, Justified. That is extremely comforting to the other person. And lastly, and three is the next step. The I next time I'm going to get your permission before I do X, Y and Z or I'm not going to bring this up again. I'm not going to bring that topic, that sensitive trigger, whatever it is up again. Or now I know it's showing that there's a future remedy that's been in place, that this isn't going to be continuing. Because we've all been in those situations where somebody has apologized, but you know, they're going to do it again. They've apologized, best intentions, it's still going to fall into the same trap. And so it's just the apology. plain, genuine, authentic understanding their emotion and finding acknowledgment in that and then the future step. Those help you in many ways send the right apology. What you can't do is what we talk about in assertive statements in the book is adding the word but. If you say, I'm sorry, but you You did this to me, or I'm sorry, but you said you just anything that came before the word but you just eliminated you deleted it.

You know what I like to do instead? Might be a little might be a little workaround.

Do you feel powerless? Does that make you feel that way?

No, no, no, because anytime you had but like you said, it kind of eliminates the apology or your acknowledgment of their feelings. And so I started to say, My workaround was, I can't wait for this. Was, I'm sorry. And I also want to talk about the- Just putting an and? Yeah, it actually is better. It's better. Yeah. I'm sorry. I acknowledge it. And I also want to bring this up as well.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, how can it's kind of a workaround? Yeah.

No, I think it's great.

It's not eliminating something, it's acknowledging and including something else.

Well, what you might want to do is instead of including in the same sentence, you need to put a period in the inner tab, then begin that.

Wait, like 30 seconds?

Yeah, then begin that next line.

Exactly. Not in the middle of it.

Yeah, but the worst is the people who had the bad apologies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the kind of stuff that can just water you down.

What should we do or say when someone gives us an insincere or inauthentic apology?

I think you should call it out every single time. Don't let a single bad apology slide under your door. And when somebody says, well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry that you feel that way. It's. Don't. Don't apologize for my feelings. I apologize for what you said. Apologize for what you did. It's. Don't feel sorry for how I feel. I. I got those. Those are my feelings, not yours. I need you to apologize for what you said. So it's taking ownership of that when they say, well, I'm sorry if I upset you. It's the response of, it's not if, it's that. I mean, you're having to correct them because it's, that's what it takes, is a continued correction of people that, understand that they don't want to apologize, so they're going to deflect people who, a toxic apology that's kind of like, well, I'm sorry, I'm such a bad friend. I'm sorry, I'm such a horrible mother. It's, it's, it doesn't feel good. No, because they know what they're wanting from you in that moment is, oh, you're not that, no, you're not that terrible. It's not what I said. Oh, yeah. you did, you always do. And they're trying to take you down that.

They're trying to blame you.

They're trying to pull you down and all of a sudden now you, you, you apologize to them.

Yeah.

And instead it's just the, the key is the understanding of what they're doing, adding distance and saying, I'll accept an apology. Like just clean, simple, I'll accept an apology and understanding that what they said is, is not one. So it's understanding that definition.

Here's the challenge, I guess. I don't know if this is like a pushback to you or anything, but it's more of like, I feel there are some people in the world who have very thin skin.

Yeah.

And everything triggers them, even when they're not trying to trigger them. And they almost become victims saying, you hurt me, you hurt me every single day or week, or something that was said or not said. And everything is an attack where it can become exhausting for a friend, a family member, or a loved one. to feel like, gosh, this person has such thin skin, I'm always needing to apologize. And most people would never take this personally and I'm not intending to hurt someone. So what if you're dealing with someone who is a victim and always trying to get you to apologize for something when you didn't really do anything?

Yeah, there is...

I'm not talking about the intentional. These were really hurtful. You said something nasty to me, but just the weak vulnerable, thin skinned person who just likes the attention of making someone else need to apologize to them.

Yeah, there are definitely those that use apologies to manipulate. They use sometimes crying to manipulate. They know, I mean, it's that my seven year old daughter, she knew when she was two, she started crying, like, get your attention. Yeah, and she probably got what she wants. So, um, it's, it is a easy trap to fall into. And somebody has thin skin, you go, God, look, I didn't, it really didn't do anything. Here are my thoughts. One, you can't be the judge of, if what you did was truly nothing. So it's a hard, that's a hard, road to hoe is what my grandfather would say. You gotta be careful with it. Um, two, if it becomes a continued habit where this person is always the victim, always, everybody's against her, everybody's against him. The world is never, those are the type of people you just need to get your hands, deform slowly away from your inner circle, add distance between them because there are people that at that point it is a control tactic that is going to start to wear you down. So you gotta, oh, it's draining people that are just emotional sand traps. that they just, they, it's always the you nevers, you always. And you go, we've already been through this. I apologize for that when it happened four years ago. So it's, it's a, it's a careful line to walk. But my advice is you need to start to distance yourself from those people. Now, if you really did something, of course, own up to that. And some people are just more sensitive to others in that way, but it's, it's, it's. case by case.

Don't get it. What is it? The emotional sand trap. Is that what you call it? Yeah, that's a tricky one. And you can get caught up with either childhood friends or intimate relationship you're in for a long time being caught in this emotional sand trap. It's addictive, and it's just like, yeah, okay, we make up and we're better for a couple weeks, but then if I'm not giving the attention one, I'm.

Going to make you wrong for something and apologize and come give me that attention again. And it's just this cycle. And I have friends that you know, were with somebody who was like that, and they found that they kind of secretly got some fulfillment out of always being the fixer, always being the, the crutch. And it most likely, I'm not a therapist, but probably started from their childhood of how they did that with their parents or their, you know, somebody in their life that they were always having to be there as the crutch all in the scapegoat for everything. But it is a position of truly to bring it full circle powerlessness, you know, to feel like every time they're taking it away from me, I can't get any traction. I mean, my biggest pet peeve when I'm dealing with, I'm kind of breaking up arguments as an attorney and having to deal with conflict are people who are circular. They can't let it go. They want to bring out that same issue over and over, even in that same conversation or the next time you see them. and you can't be stuck in that. You're just on their merry-go-round is what happens. So you have to have the decision. One time I even advised a client that two sisters who were against each other, and it was about as fun as it sounds, they were very against each other. And I had her lead with, I'm getting off the merry-go-round. I said, that's what I want you to start with. when it comes for your time. I mean, that was the it was more of a personal thing of like, I need you to let this person know I'm stepping off, you can step off with me, but we're going to put this issue aside.

Yeah. Or you can keep spinning around by yourself.

Exactly.

I'm removing myself.

Yeah. Yeah. That's now you got it.

Where have you fallen short in the last couple of years with not using your own advice in having control, confidence or the ability to connect with someone. Where have you gotten flustered and be like, oh man, I really said the wrong thing. Or I really like wasn't listening or I hurt this relationship by what I how I reacted. Is there anywhere? Are you just kind of like the perfect community?

No, far from it. In the first basket of saying things with control, it talks, we talk about how the fight or flight effects in your body and how you say, I really want to you want to say something hurtful, it's because you want to hurt the other person.

You feel like they've hurt you.

Exactly. And you want to get back at them. It's not just a cutting word. It is you are wanting to cut them. It is. That's the fight in it. And so it's truly you wanting to cause pain to push the threat away. Where I fall short is where I don't do what I outline in the book, is you. You. I forget to take my breath. So when I don't lead with my breath, my first word being my breath to make sure I'm keeping my analytical, my logical at the Forefront of my brain and rather getting emotionally flooded. That's when I say things I regret. That's when I fall into getting defensive. And as soon as you get defensive, you're already starting to weaken your position. You're already starting to lose the more defensive you get. Really? Yeah.

So how does that work in a, if you're a, you know, a lawyer in court, in trial, when one lawyer is getting defensive, what is that saying to the entire room?

Well, there's a difference between advocating and also defending. So you can Advocate a position and you can also defend the position. At the same time, you're, you're the converse. You're all also advocating for another position. In the legal world, it's a little bit different because you have to follow the law. Can't decide what the law is going to be, and you can't decide what your facts are going to be. You can only argue and Advocate based upon the cards that you're dealt. And so often we use the terms defendant because maybe the state is pursuing prosecuting a criminal or maybe a plaintiff has sued something against a defendant company in some way. There's these terms of defending, but really each side is advocating their particular view. So often when I'm getting defensive, it's because I'm taking things personally and choosing to hold on to something that I have all the ability to let go of at the same time.

That'S when, when you're, when you're defensive, you're taking something personally.

Yes.

And when you take something personally and you respond from that way of being, what typically happens in a conversation or an argument or a debate?

When you decide to take things personally, you're picking up what nobody asks you to carry. And many times, if you say that hurt me, it's because, one, you're allowing it to, to hurt you. in many ways, you're allowing it to hurt you and affect you. And if you carry it for many years, because there's times when somebody said something to you many, many, many years ago, but you still remember it because it still hurts you and it still stuck with you. The same power that you allow them to hurt you is the same power you have to let it go. You're just still holding on to it. And often it is that process of making sure that you take control of yourself. you have the breath, you're able to regulate your emotions in a way that's gonna allow you to continue in that conversation without getting that fight or flight mixed up and have you lost in the mix.

That brought up a story for me of childhood. You know, people said hurtful things, but when you said that, I remember a different memory, not what someone said, but what someone did that I held onto for almost like 20 years. and it was like, it was like.

A, I don't know, it was like.

A movie playing in my head where I had a, I was playing a character role for 20 years of my life when I felt in fight or flight or when I felt like I needed to get defensive. It's almost like that energy from childhood was my go-to until I was able to recognize and heal that energy. And that story is, it's a story I told maybe 10 years ago. but I don't think I've told her in a long time. But when I was in. In elementary school, we was in third grade. The teacher had us go out for recess during. During recess, during lunch on the playground. For whatever reason, this day, he said, okay, class, there's probably, like, 20 or. Excuse me, about 40 of us in the classroom. He said, okay, class, I'm gonna have two captains. I'm gonna play dodgeball. and he had two, like, boys in the class picked teams, one and one. And I remember being really excited. I was like, okay, hopefully I get on this team, right? And they are picking one by one all the boys in the class first, these two Pickers, right? And it comes down to me and another kid who I didn't think was that athletic, right? But they picked him over me. So I was going to be the last boy picked, but then they skipped me and they started picking all the girls all the way down to me and one girl and they picked her and I was the last kid picked in the whole class. And I remember feeling so angry and so like attacked. They didn't say like, oh, you're stupid or you're dumb or whatever, but their actions said it. And for probably 20 years without thinking, I wasn't thinking this story every day, but I was like, people are trying to take advantage of me. People are trying to like pick on me. People are making fun of me. It was kind of like a script playing in my yeah, in my my nervous system, right? I was living life trying to win and prove people wrong. And it got me incredible results, but it left me feeling very empty and sad and resentful and angry because I was carrying what someone did, not what someone said. And it wasn't until, I don't know, 12 years ago when I finally let that go and started living from a space of how do I not in a perfect way, but how do I create a win-win experience in life? Not a win-lose. Yes. And how do I come from a place of trying to lift others up rather than get back at people that, like, made fun of me or did something to hurt me?

Right.

And it was interesting how my entire life started to change when I let go of that harmful act and I'd stop taking it personally. Right? But most of us hold on to these things for a long time, whether it's something that was said to us or something that was not said to us or done to us. And we take it personally, and then we are triggered in conversations where maybe it's not meant to hurt us, but we're triggered easily. So it sounds like we almost need to learn how to heal the stories we were told or the traumas we were received growing up that cause us to be reactive in uncomfortable conversations as well.

Yeah, I love, I mean, just letting it go, easier said than done.

Oh, yeah.

But what it happens in conversation, same way, which is a great story and great lesson. I mean, that what you've been able to go through is that when those things happen versus when somebody said it or they did it, you hold on to it and you kind of put it behind your back. You go around life talking to everybody and they don't know when you have it back there. But you got something that's hurting you. And so when somebody's communicating with you and they're saying something that is triggering what you have in your hand, you're reacting and they don't understand it. And so too often, like, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. And what you have to do is be able to show them what you got. That's much harder. Be able to communicate with that. One of the skills that I teach is it's hopeful when you can begin your sentence with, I can tell. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell, really, I can tell I'm getting sensitive in argument in real time. It's incredibly helpful.

What does that do when you speak that you were getting defensive in an argument?

I, what I say is when you claim it, you control it. I mean, when I say I'm getting defensive, I automatically become almost less defensive. At the same time, the other person is understanding in that moment. All right, I'm hitting an area that's.

Going to be a trigger. What if they start to hold that against you? And they're like, oh, I've got them.

Let me just dig in even farther. Well, that's when you have to, when you say it with control, you also act in control. Meaning, if I tell you, I can tell I'm getting defensive, and they keep pressing, that's when you say, I need to walk away from this conversation. Yeah, yeah. I need to tie it out. You remove yourself. Yeah, but that's much, much better, much smarter, much more powerful. they continue to dig and dig and dig while holding that problem, that issue you've always had.

I have a theory, and I want you to let me know if you think this is accurate or poke holes at this theory.

Okay.

The key to any successful relationship comes down to agreements because arguments and More stress is the lack of agreements equals the lack of agreements. That's all I think arguments are, are not having clear agreements in place and not sticking to them. And I think your grandparents speak true to this. How long have they been married for? One time, 40, 50 years or something. Yeah, 50 years. And they seem pretty happy, is that right?

Yeah.

And what you said, I think holds the theory true, unless there's more to this, is that every year they come together at some point and say, Are our agreements still working for us? And here's what I'd like to add to my agreement of how I'm going to show up and what I want you to support with and vice versa. Can we agree to this, sign it, whether it be physically or spiritually, and then live up to those agreements throughout the year? I feel like when agreements or a lack of roles and responsibilities aren't clearly communicated and held up to in any relationship, intimately, friends, family, co-working, then that's when there's stress, resentment, frustration, or dis-ease in the relationship. But harmony happens, not perfection, but harmony happens when clear agreements are in place, which means having challenging conversation sometimes and learning to come together with your three C's, confidence, control and connection, but coming into a relationship with a lack of agreements or undefined agreements, just assuming someone else agrees with you based on societal norms or based on whatever it might be, cultural norms, these uncommunicated agreements, but then they're not met. and they're not communicated, that's when I think there's a lack of harmony or more friction. It doesn't mean it can't work or can't be a good relationship, but I feel like there's more harmony and love and peace and abundance and joy in relationships when there are clear agreements and each party lives up to those agreements.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that theory holds true. I really do. And it's most of the time you see that People have been together for a long time. Those agreements happen naturally. So you can have a contract that is implicit. Unspoken agreements. It's not written down.

Yeah.

It's not written down. It's still a contract. Yeah, yeah. If I go and mow your lawn, because you tell me it's an oral contract, you tell me you're gonna pay me in, and then I mow the lawn, you go, sorry, it's not written down.

It's still a contract.

Yeah. So often, the people who have been together for a long time, those agreements form naturally. I become the person who takes out the trash. She becomes the person who does X or does Y because they grow out of habit and routine. Same thing. I love the idea of it comes not on assumptions, but on agreements. I find that very powerful.

Way more powerful. Yeah.

And the big assumption I think that has to be in there though, is you can't assume that it's not going to change. Because let's take the grandparents, for example, this yearly thing, people change. So what you wanted in year one is most likely not going to be the thing you want in year 10. Certainly not in year 50.

And seasons change, right? It's like you have kids, you don't have kids, you have money, you have challenges, you have whatever.

Yes. and what happens and means when you have kids, most of the time, the agreement is kids. You don't agree on each other. And so it now it's a, it's a third party into the, into the contract. It takes a whole lot of your time and space and tension for all the better. I mean, it's so, it's beautiful.

If individuals getting into relationships could get out of assumptions and into agreements, they would have a lot less arguments.

That's, yeah, sounds great. Let's just co-author that book.

But it's true though, I feel like, but why is it so hard to communicate the agreements we want and get out of, oh, I'm a guy and she's a girl, and so this is, we're just gonna assume that this is the way a relationship is supposed to be. We assume that the guy is gonna do this, the girl is gonna do this, and we're gonna love each other this way. as opposed to just having an uncomfortable conversation, doesn't even have to be uncomfortable. It could just be a curious conversation about, Hey, this is my intention on how I want to show up, this is who I am, and I want to be accepted in my relationship and I want to accept you for who you are. Can we come to an agreement on how we're going to show up for each other if we get into a relationship, as opposed to just assume that you're supposed to be a certain way, I'm supposed to be a way around everything, around Money, kids, religion, career, travel, living, all these different things. Yeah. The more clarity we can get around agreements in relationships, the more harmony and peace we will have. Absolutely.

Let's go. Let's go.

That's why people need to read your book.

There you go.

That's exactly right.

The next conversation, argue less, talk more. And that's what you see on the back end too, by the way, the people that you're not who I thought you were. I thought you would do this. I fought they were that. Well, because You had a lot of assumptions. Assumptions.

Yeah, it's the unspoken, what is it, the unspoken assumptions or expectations, right? It's just like you expect someone to be a certain way. Why do people expect someone to be a certain way as opposed to just asking them what they're going to be like and say, you know?

Yeah, it's much easier to assume they're going to be exactly who they were and what they are in your head. Same thing with conversations. If you were not going to have a difficult conversation, I'm going to have that in my head long before I have to talk. And so it goes off the rails when all of a sudden you start to respond, not at all how I had it in my head. Wait, wait, wait. This isn't how it's supposed to go. This isn't how I had it rehearsed in my head. You're supposed to say, I'm sorry. You're supposed to say, I'm right. I mean, it's, and it, it, it does not end up that way. And so instead of coming out at the beginning, let's say using a frame, getting an agreement. of this is what I like to talk about and can I get your agreement on not looking to do X, Y, and Z? That's how you're gonna have it.

You have mastered a lot of these communication skills through being a lawyer, being a communication coach, a speaker, a content creator, an author, a facilitator. You have practiced these things. You've studied them for masters as well. But where is the area that you struggle with the most when it comes to having conversations?

Not trying to control every single outcome. Control is something very comfortable for everybody. We want our kid to do what we think they should do. I want somebody to react how I want them to react. I want somebody to write the email how I would write the email. So it is just a reflection of ourselves. And so I fall into the trap that anybody does. Really?

Yeah.

That you want, I mean, imagine you really love communication. Somebody sends you an email and you go, God, I wish you would delete that unnecessary apology. Get rid of the word just. You could have made this one sentence. So it's something that I see a lot because it's something I'm passionate about. But yeah, I fall into the trap sometimes of controlling an outcome or wanting to control it. Yeah, wanting instead of letting it explore itself. It's the patience, it's the not getting defensive. It's the human element and everything. Yeah. You struggle on that too, huh? And body.

You seem very patient, though. Very calm, very cool. Southern, for the most part. Yeah.

You know, I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sit here all day and listen to you complain. That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tell me more. I got.

I got a lot of questions.

Yeah, just complain all day to me. I'm here.

Got some sweet tea.

Yeah, let's go. Yeah, sit down. Tell me more.

Yeah, how you feel. Yeah.

Speaking of, you know, sitting there all day and being in an argument or someone complaining, if you cry in an argument or someone else is crying or starts to cry at some point, what's the best way to respond?

When somebody starts to cry, when you're.

Having an argument or a difficult conversation, all of a sudden you start to cry. or the person you're arguing with starts to cry.

Oh, okay.

What's the best way to respond if you cry or they cry?

So if you're in an argument and you start to cry, number one, do not for one second apologize. There's absolutely nothing that you need to say. Let me say that differently. If you begin to cry in an argument, the only response you need to have is, Nothing. There's no apology you need to issue for crying. It is what your body does naturally. The higher the tension, the higher the release. If you are going to say anything, then you are going to label the tears. You're going to say, these are tired tears. These are tears that care. These are tears that are frustrated. You label them. It is your stress in liquid form. That's all it is. And it's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if somebody is, let's say, on the other side of it and you're talking to them and they start to cry, what you don't do is go, oh, Jesus again. Oh, great. Oh, what? Let me guess, you're gonna cry. Now you're gonna cry. Yeah, okay. They're crying now. Like, that is the worst because you're saying you're not a safe place. If what I don't want somebody crying to do is say, I'm sorry. Don't apologize and say, I'm so sorry I'm crying. take that, throw it away. Don't ever say that again. There's nothing to apologize for what your body does. If somebody else is crying, you're not going to apologize for them crying either. Understand that that is their body doing what their body needs to do because it is a stressful situation. If you need to, if you need to, you can get a tissue and put it down. Don't feel like you need to put it in their face and go, okay, fine. You, you, you good? Get it all out. Oh, great. Okay, I guess we'll just wait. anytime you do that, it's just eroding the trust. You need to just continue to talk to them as if they're not, because it serves as a distraction otherwise. And it eliminates that idea of somebody using tears to manipulate too. So it's a good way of just continuing to talk to them. Keep talking. Keep talking, acting like they're not crying.

Really?

Yeah.

What if they need a moment and they're really like having their life.

That's different.

If you say, Hey, we can pause.

For a moment if you just want to, Absolutely. There's nothing wrong to say, hey, you need, you want to take a timeout? Nothing wrong with that. It's the, when you act exasperated, if you roll your eyes and take a big sigh, that's where you, that's where you eroding the trust. You need to be a safe space for that. If I'm just saying it's not bothering you. So if you can just say, I'm still here, keep going, like you're good, keep going. Like that, that's typically, if you can just say, keep going, it is saying, hey, don't worry about that. It's okay.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But don't ever act exasperated.

Sure.

That's a bad way to do it.

Speaking of emotions, I recently had someone close to me lose someone who was close to them. And they're experiencing grief and sadness and loss. And how can we, what's the best way to show up for someone who is grieving? Anything. The loss of a friend, a family member, a pet, a health condition, something, a home, everything. If they're grieving, what's the best way to show up for someone?

One is the best way to show for somebody who's grieving. One, do not begin your sentence with let me know if, like let me know if there's anything I can do.

Don't start with that.

Don't start with that. Let me know if, and they can turn this a million different ways. Let me know if you need anything. Let me know if there's anything I can do. It is disingenuous often when you say let me know if, because what it does is put all the responsibility on you. Hey, I checked my box. I just said sorry. And I said, let me know if you need anything. I guess if they don't get back with me, they didn't need anything. And that's just not, that's not genuine. When somebody is grieving, the last thing they need is another burden put on them. Another, oh, it's now on me to now ask out and reach out instead. Two, you just do it. Do the thing. If you wanted to bring groceries, go bring groceries. If you want to make their life better, go make their life better. Otherwise. Don't act like you do. Don't say things that you don't mean. So it's much better to say, I'm so sorry for your loss, then have this fictitious, let me know if you ever need anything. It's generally, most of the time, I'm not gonna say not every time, most of the time, it is just to make the person who's offering it feel better.

Like they checked the box of checking in with someone to say, Hey, I checked in with you and I offered support, but I didn't, I wasn't specific about the support. So I'm gonna make you think harder now. and I've probably done that many times in my past, you know, but the way you speak that, it makes me think differently as opposed to, you know, I actually think I saw you post about that, I don't know, like a month ago, because the fires were happening in LA and I saw you talk about that. And I remember this person who was going through the grieving process instead of saying, reaching out to them and saying, what can I do for you? Like, let me know if you need any support. I'm here for you. I think it's good intention to be like, Hey, I'm here for you, whatever you need. It's like, Whatever you need, I'm here for you. Instead, I just sent Postmates with coffee because I knew their family was going to be exhausted and not sleeping. Instead, I sent meals throughout the lunchtime because I knew they weren't thinking about cooking for themselves. It just Postmates food to them. And just for the week, just to be like, this probably isn't going to be everything you need. It's not going to help with everything, but it's one less thing you need to think about during this week of, sadness, loss, grief, overwhelm, and not taking care of yourself. How can I just add a little bit extra and then keep adding more as I see where I can help?

Yeah.

Because you don't want to overstep.

Yeah. Because you. Yeah. You want to make sure you. You're not overreaching. You're not doing too much. And I say. I say it comes across as disingenuous. What I mean is it can be all the right intent. Like you. You are offering to say something because. you truly feel for them. And often people have a hard time knowing what to say. They do. It's just they lock up. I do. If I say this, it's gonna say this. It's, it can be kind of a stressful situation to reach out to somebody and they just don't know any better. So I'm not trying to say that they don't have the best intentions. I think anybody who says, I'm sorry for that hardship, their intentions are pure. It's just when you say, let me know if you're really just giving them another chore, that's what you're doing.

So just say, I'm sorry for what you're going through. Yeah. And leave it at that.

I would leave it at that, or that I'm just thinking of you. Just that alone. But don't say, I'm here for you. When you're really not. And I'd say even three is.

Because also, before you go to three, when someone's grieving something, it's like you go through many stages of grief. There's shock, there's sadness, there's a ton of emotion, there's a lot of tears. the last thing you want to do is ask for help. You don't want to say, my house just burned down. Can you give me some money?

Yeah, can you, yeah, hey, can you, you're in shock.

Exactly. You're in sadness. You're in breakdown. You're like, yeah, hey, can you come over here and clean this up for me? You don't want to ask for something because you already feel an overwhelm of emotion and sadness.

And asking for help, maybe it doesn't feel empowering. Right. Well, and especially when it has to do with loss, because if you say, let me know if you need anything, it's like, well, the thing I need you cannot give me. And it's just a, Um, it's a dagger. Um, and people, grief isn't linear. I mean, people experience it in, in different ways and different depths in their own way. Um, and I was going to add that three is you want to agree with their pain. So don't try and minimize it. That's what we want to do. No, well, at least they're in a good place. A lesson or, yeah, well, I mean, it could have been, it could have been worse. Instead, if it's, instead, what you want to say is nobody should have to go through that. Man, that's terrible. I can't believe that happened. I mean, that is whatever thoughts they're needing to have that you think that they're having. You are agreeing with their pain. Don't try and lessen it in some way. That is let them feel it fully. And you do that by agreeing with it.

The next conversation. Are you less talk more by Jefferson Fisher? Make sure you guys get a copy if you want to learn. Why you should never win an argument. How to assert yourself and communicate with intention. How to set clear boundaries and frame conversations that will empower you. Why saying less is often more and how to overcome conflict with connection. Then this is the book for you. Make sure to get a few copies, give them to your friends, give them to the person in your life who also constantly cries to guilt you in every conversation. I'm just teasing, not that person. They won't receive it. They'll be triggered if they get this. You'll be apologizing if you do. Exactly. I'm sorry. Here's this book. Get some copies, guys. Make sure to support Jefferson. He's got pretty much daily content as well on social media. You can follow him on social media. Powerful stuff. We'll have it all linked up below. Get this book. It's gonna be a big seller this year, so make sure to check it out. And Jefferson, thanks so much for being here, man. Thank you so much for being here. I hope you got some value from this episode as much as I did. If you did. Please do me a favor and click the like button right now. If you like this, it's going to help share it out into the YouTube world even more for us. Please click that like button and leave a comment below on your biggest takeaway or if you have any questions that you want me to follow up with. Also subscribe to our channel because when you do, you help us book even bigger guests and I want you to have the best information out there in the world because that's what the School of Greatness is all about. so make sure to subscribe right now, like this video, share a comment below on your biggest takeaway, and also I've got some big news. A new book. If you're looking to create financial freedom in your life and you want more abundance and you want a richer life, then make sure to check out my new book, Make Money Easy. I think you're gonna love this and it's all about creating financial freedom. The link is below in the description or you can go to makemoneyeasybook.com. and check it out.

I'm very clear about if I want to argue something, I'm like, do I want to put my cognitive and emotional energy into this? No. I'm very aware. You know, we talked about boundaries earlier off camera. My boundaries are more for me than anybody else. And my boundaries.