Conversation Techniques That Make You Magnetic | Jefferson Fisher

Understand that arguments aren't always meant to be one. So there's a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain. And if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. Arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding.

I think you got to have a dream. The school of greatness.

Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howis.

You are a board certified Texas trial lawyer that has gone viral on social media with your daily messages of inspiration. Building confidence, how to deal with touchy situations and conversations, arguments, how to deal with unpleasant human beings, and how to stay calm and peaceful and create amazing outcomes in conversations.

That's right.

And I'm curious, with all of your experience as a trial lawyer, where was the time that you were the most in the stickiest situation in a trial where you thought, there's no way I'm going to get out of this or we're not going to win this case because I'm just, I don't have the skill set or it's not going our way.

Right.

And what did that teach you about how to be more prepared for future cases?

So one of my first trials that I had, it was the first one by myself. Often in the legal world you have like an associate, you have a partner, you have somebody who's with you. And that was the first one by myself. And this was a larger case. And when you get there, there's this perception, especially when you're young, you know, you're, the, the ink on your signature card isn't on, your bar card isn't dry yet. They, they can smell the green on.

Yeah. You have no clue what you're doing.

No. And you, you can feel that pressure because most of the time, even when you're. I'm 26, 28, I'm younger than my client. And so there's like. But that just happens.

He doesn't have confidence in you.

Right, Right. It's just. So there's that, that level of trust. They, I mean, I know I'm going to be doing it. And it was a full panel. You have different juries depending on what court it's in. There's accounting courts that are six different constitutional courts and a court of 12. That's typical panel, what you see on TV.

And so this was panel of 12.

Yeah, panel of 12. And it was a larger case. The other side had two attorneys on it from a bigger firm. And they were the ones that were like suit and tie, looked clean. They were you. But it was, it ended up Working out for me that way. But I got in the stitchy, sticky situation when I was talking with a witness and I was crossing this witness, and I started to get, like, really defensive. I started to let what they were saying get after me. You have these difficult witnesses who.

This wasn't your witness.

This was not my witness. This was an expert on the other side. So these are people who are paid obscene amounts of money from the other side to testify on an expert opinion. But this guy was. He was a veteran.

I mean, he knew what to say.

He knew. Oh, he, He. He just. He chewed me up like the finest piece of state, man. I mean, he was. He. He. He got me good. But. But what I took away from that, that was just day one was. That was just day one. I. I ended up winning the trial.

Okay.

But it was because I didn't allow myself. So we did a second day. That's the second time for him to go on the stand. Oh, wow. And the next day, I did something different. I aligned my thoughts of how I wanted to approach the situation before I even got in it. I didn't do it.

What does that mean?

Yeah. So typically, at what we're doing every day, we're just going by the seat of our pants or you're just in it. It's easy to get overwhelmed. It's easy to get in that moment. And all of a sudden, you're just kind of surviving in the conversation. So you're looking for different ways to maybe hurt somebody, to have a zinger to defend yourself. You got it. Yeah, very much so. And I remember getting in my car and going, I can't do that again. I can't do that again. And I started coming up with different phrases that I would tell myself to help align me in the moment.

When he does this again, when I get defensive.

You got it.

When I get triggered and he says something that I know isn't cool, but he's trying to get under my skin, how am I going to respond?

You got it. You got it. And so there was this need for me being on my own. There was no. I didn't have any other people from the firm with me of trying to prove myself. And sometimes when we have that pressure on, there's that need to over promise, over do, and you end up, you know what you say? Trying to look cute, you know, and you. You overextend yourself.

Yeah.

And this time I wasn't going to do that. So I started to write things on the top of my yellow notepad to Kind of just like, make sure I sunk these things into my brain. I'd say when I was just like, just be Jefferson. Don't worry about trying to be some, you know, macho court attorney on tv, that they just. Just be. Just be. And. And who Jefferson is is a guy that I hear somebody get defensive, I go, okay. You know, just like, oh, all right. And I just. I just water off a duck's back. And so it was that first step that now all of a sudden, his snarkiness when I got defensive justified him getting more snarky. Oh, right. Yeah. He just ratchet.

Like, I got you. Every time we dig in, you got it.

But me just going, well, okay, like, allowing him to have his moment, it made him look worse. Yeah. Because now he looked like the jerk. Now he started to lose credibility, and now the scales begin to tip, and when the other side begins to object more, it looks like they're trying to hide something more. And so I took the strategy of, here I am fighting for my client, just me, and here he is. They're the ones in the suits. They're the ones with money. They're the ones that are objecting. What does that say?

Wow, that's smart.

Yeah. So. And so what they would do is they would have. They bring in their paralegals, like their team, and bring in all these boxes, and they wouldn't do it themselves.

Papers and everything else.

Yeah, yeah. They had these banker boxes, red wells. And they wouldn't do it themselves. The attorneys wouldn't. They would have their staff do it. I wouldn't do that. So I made sure the jury. I would keep my box in the hallway until the jury got there. And so I would have two boxes and let the jury see me carry my two heavy boxes in and put them down myself.

Wow.

And so I just wanted them to always think that, which one looks more credible? Which one looks more authentic to, you know, their practice?

Who cares about the case.

Yeah, exactly. And all of a sudden, because these jurors are just looking at us, I mean, they don't have anything else better to do. And the day. I mean, they're given their civic duty, it's amazing. But when they sit in that chair, it's. It's. You're the show for them.

And you've got to present a compelling case, and you've got to persuade, influence, and enroll people in a story of your truth.

Right. It is my job to tell my client's truth, tell my client's story, and it's just an Odd profession. Because, Louis, I get hired to handle other people's problems with people that I don't have a problem with. Okay. I don't have any problem with them, but I guess I do now. And then to make it worse, the other side hires an attorney whose sole job is to make me look bad to solely just to make me lose. And you have a judge that just decides the rest.

Right.

And there's, I mean, every call that you have with opposing counsel, every time you're talking to a judge, you're having a cross examine a witness. It is. You can see why the profession is very well suited for people that are good at dealing with communication.

Yes.

Because if you can't, it's not the one for you.

What I'm hearing you say is the. Is now, when you go into a case, you have an intention.

Yes.

When the worst case scenario happens, how am I going to respond? I'm going to just be Jefferson or I'm going to have these other mantras or whatever you want to call them, intentions to remind myself to lean into that. Is that what I'm hearing?

You say you got it. And I translate that with my clients. So I have just like I do it, I have to train them. And going in the hot seat, not.

Get defensive, not get active. They're going to do this, they're going to get under your skin, they're going to call you a liar.

You got it. And because your case might depend solely on how you behave.

Isn't that interesting? It doesn't matter if, if you were actually right or wrong. It's how you behave. Your energy being presented to a jury.

Absolutely.

And that is happening in real life, in everyday conversations, in your career. You got it. Your relationships, other opportunities in life is how you present yourself a thousand percent. It doesn't matter if you actually have the skills, the credibility, the credentials.

Right.

To get the great opportunities. It's how you present the skills, credentials and credibilities to the person or people in front of you.

Right. And my client could have all the facts in their favor, but if they're a jerk, your case is over. Wow. It's not going to happen.

It doesn't matter if you, you wrote the law or you didn't break the law.

Yeah.

It's how you present your situation.

It. Well, there's some aspect of it that an appellate court might come back and say, I'll wrote. Yeah, the, the laws. But when it comes to jury trials, when it comes to jury trials, especially civil criminal law is different. But on the civil side of things, they can dump your case if they just don't like.

They just don't like you. We don't want this person to win. Yeah.

Because if somebody who. Here's. Here's an example. So I had a case. I was on the defensive, and lady had been hurt in an accident, and I knew very much that she was. She acted like she was a. Okay. And that's okay because you. You can be hurt in an accident and turn out to be fine later. That's. There's nothing wrong with that. But what she had done was overextended herself by saying that the accident kept her from holding her grandkids. Oh. The accident kept her from being able to go hike and enjoy all these things.

Yeah. She milked it.

Milked milkery. She milked it bad. And so when that kind of happens, it's. What I do is just lean back like. Okay, now. Now she's saying something. Now she's giving me something aside from her facts that I can. I can use. And what she didn't even think about was she had posted all these pictures on Instagram.

Yeah.

Publicly. Of holding grandbabies. They had gone on, like, three vacations to Hawaii.

Her on top of a mountain.

Exactly. It's exactly what it was next to, like, some, like, Mount Summit. Okay. And that next day, I come in and it's my turn to cross examine. And I said, miss so and so. I heard you say something the other day that, well, almost broke my heart. You said that life's just not worth living. Did I read that right? And she says, yes, that's correct. Waterworks start coming up again. All right. She cried both times, which. There's nothing wrong with crying. That's not what I'm saying. But she. She manufactured those very quickly. I said, there's some things I want.

Us to look and take the photos out. You know, Kay's gone. Oh, my God.

In a matter of seconds. And it was my client who caused the accident. But her case was. Yeah, but it was. It was not a major accident. But the issue was, once you lose your credibility, you cannot. And in that sense, you cannot get it back. Wow. And so if she had just stayed true to who she was and been honest of. No. We've been able to go on vacations and do some things, but this accent really caused me some pain back then. I'm just looking for a way to try and do X, Y, and Z. But she. She got out of that. She got out of that line. Wow.

That's funny, man. That's crazy.

It's fun. It's fun stuff.

Now, when you're thinking about questioning or examining someone, what is the psychology that you think about before you ask the first question to set someone up, whether they're on your team or someone you're going against, I guess in court to set them up for the outcome you want to create? What's the psychology you think about in order to get the results in any conversation?

So I'm going to answer that in two spots is one, if it's somebody I am against. All right. Versus somebody who's with me, one against is more fun. So I know that when I sit down and I'm going to depose a witness, meaning I'm asking them questions prior to trial, they're not going to like me. They know that. They think I'm the bad guy because they don't know. They just know what they hear on tv. And I know right away that the person that I see is not the person that I'm talking to. What we're about to exchange in that moment is they're going to reveal to me conflict. That is just going to be a window into the struggle that they're feeling in that moment. That there are things that they carried into that room that they were carrying days, months, hours before they even saw me. And that is probably one of the number one keys of when you deal with these very difficult conversations is the issue they put up is rarely the real issue. It's not that. I mean, you can say something even at home, you get an argument with a spouse or a girlfriend and you're going, where's this coming from? Well, it turns out at 8 o' clock that morning, somebody had cut them off in traffic and they had a bad email and they. And there it goes.

They just frustrate.

Their mom said something and you just happen to be the outlet. So that's the ability to recognize that and use that as a place to connect rather than a place to continue to, to, you know, flare up.

How do you use that? Whether it's someone personal in your life or someone that you're working with. Will court.

Yeah.

When you know it's not who they are, it's the baggage they're carrying to that conversation or the portrayal of the baggage or whatever. How do you use it to your advantage as opposed to get defensive and guarded?

Yeah.

Whether it's your wife.

Right, right.

Friend. Or someone in trial, sometimes you have.

To take them outside, like of their, their head. So if you And I are talking in here and say we get in an argument, we're just here in this room. We take out a step outside. Then you get some perspective, right? Then you have some clarity. What do we say when we get overwhelmed? I need some space. I need to go take a walk. It's the same way when we're having a conversation. If I sense something that in that moment, I can do one of two things. I can either react, meaning I can get defensive, or I can respond. Responding is a way that says, I'm trying to understand you. Reaction says, I have no say in it. You have the cause. This is the effect. And that has no accountability. In that. Responding says, I'm taking full accountability for my feelings that only I can touch. Yeah, that's the big difference. Wow.

How do you not get triggered emotionally, though, in life, like, personally, if someone's coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things personally? Or do you.

It's very natural to take things personally. But what I say before I want to take things personally is I'll say, put it down, Jefferson. I'll say, put it down. Most of the time when we're taking something personally, we're picking something up that nobody asks us to carry, and we're just choosing to hold on to it, choosing to say, this was meant for me. And that's not always the case. And too many times we get somebody says, why are you taking this so personally? And they turn around. We're holding it all. Like, why are you holding that? I didn't ask you to hold any of that. So you get in a position to.

Where.

How personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people. And if I start to take things too personally, oh, well, somebody's just going slow in front of me on purpose. They're showing up late because they want to show a sign to me. It's just all these different ways of treating things negatively. For the most part, you take it personally. When that's. You just drop it. Drop that thought because you're not giving them enough grace.

Where did you learn to let things go and put things down? Did you have this call about you as a kid or did something over time help you realize, okay, I don't need to hold on to this baggage or stress.

It's just been a. As if it's a just blacksmith hitting on a piece of hot metal man. My whole life has been that from really? Yeah, from my upbringing. A lot of attorneys in the family. I'm the oldest for. I love being the big brother. That meant I didn't do a lot of mediating with siblings. A lot of. I mean, I was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom stories. And so they would teach you how to project and how to present and how to persuade and how to. At pace, I mean, it was. It was awesome. And that just kind of translated with what, what I like. Some people are really good at math or economics or counting. Not me. This is. This is my thing.

Sure, sure.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people in today's world want to be great at winning arguments. What would you say if you wanted to win an argument would be the three keys to set yourself up for success?

Number one would be understand that arguments aren't always meant to be one. So there's a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain. And if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. Arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding. It's okay to have conflict. You and I can argue about something, but when it gets negative, that's when it's bad. You and I could argue of who's the best baseball team. And you know, that's a disagreement that ratchets up a little bit more, becomes an argument. Maybe we get a little bit more passion, sure. But number one is that don't get into the trap of thinking that you have to win it, because when you do, just, it's only going to breed contempt because it comes at a cost. And maybe you made fun of them, maybe you said something that was too final, too close to the vest. So number two is, know what the end goal is? Oftentimes we get into this argument and what happens? We're like 10 minutes into it and we go, how do we start this? How did we even get here? What were we arguing?

Right, right, right, right.

And that meant that it wasn't real most of the time. When that happens, it means that the true issue you were arguing about was just a red herring. That's just a surface. So it's it. You have to know where you're going to go in the argument, so what the final outcome is. And number two, how are you going to heal it? Because if it's an issue of especially emotion, if you don't heal it in a way that is going to continue to create that, that positive understanding and interaction, you will, you will lose every time.

How to heal the Argument or how to heal the disagreement or whatever is happening between you and the other person.

Right. Which involves taking accountability for what your behavior has done.

Yeah.

One of the worst ways to do that is say, well, I would have done it had you not done right. If say, I would have. I wouldn't have said this and you not said that. No, you don't need to. Once you start tallying who did what, you're already in a losing situation. The correct response is, I'm sorry that I said this, I could have done better. And that. That acknowledgement of I shouldn't have said that. I didn't mean that I'm gonna do better. Just that little promise says I'm wanting to heal this rather than go, go kick rocks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious. You know, that sounds like something that. That type of language sounds like something that would work really well in intimate relationship, a partner, you know, in a marriage, if people spoke like that. Hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry if that hurt you.

Right.

That's not what I really meant. Yes, I'm sure that would help heal and mend arguments and disagreements in a beautiful, loving way. I'm curious, from your experience, I've been married 11 years now. Is that correct?

11? Yeah.

You've been doing trial law for how long?

Eight.

Eight years. Okay. So.

Yeah, about 10. 10 years. Yeah.

Roughly around the same time.

Yeah.

What is the number one skill you bring to trial law that you aren't as good in marriage and relationships? And what is the number one thing you do well in your marriage that you wish you did better in trial.

Law, in the first scenario of what do I do well at court, that I don't do well at home, or not as well? Yeah. And not as well. Manage my emotions.

You manage emotions really well in court.

Yes. You have to. I can't. I can't be. I can't be acting a fool. Right. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's too. There's too much. There's too much at stake. And. And you're. You're. As a profession, it's. That's not a place to be doing that versus at home. Yeah. I get mad about. I mean, all kinds of things.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, we. We. I'm human. I mean, but of course, I'm not somebody who lashes out. I'm not. I'm not a big emotionally reactive person. I'm. I'm pretty much like this.

Yeah.

But that doesn't mean that the fifth time I, you know, my son's asked me to for a popsicle. That it's. No, man, it's after bedtime. We've already eaten one a day. It's time.

I've already said no. Yeah.

I've already said no. And like, you just. It's easy to try and get that. So dealing with those emotions, I also think a lot of that is home is a safe place to express and feel your emotions. Right. Versus in the workplace, not so much.

You may not succeed as well you got in your career or accelerate your career, not mine.

Yeah, yeah. If you are. Because if you're always emotionally reactive in my profession, you're just seen as a hothead and somebody that nobody can work with.

Not credible.

No, not. Not credible. On the flip side of it, what do I do well at home that I don't do nearly as well in the. In the workplace? Man, that's. That's hard. I feel like what we do really well at home is sometimes have like, very direct, fast arguments. My wife's also an attorney.

Oh, man.

Yeah. Yeah.

You both got your case.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But our arguments are extremely efficient. Like, I can't. I can count on one hand the amount of times they've actually been, like, long.

Really?

Yeah. It's typically pretty. Pretty quick.

How do you. How do you create quick arguments? How do you end arguments quickly?

Quick apologies, really?

And you both apologize fast.

Yes, but. But we will kind of package it. It's not like we have a formula or like, let's go to the book. No, it's not. This is what we've like developed over time is when I heard you say this, it made me think this. I didn't mean that. Okay, well, I'll, I will next time. I'll try to ask you this before I go there.

I won't make an assumption.

Yeah.

I won't get upset right away without asking you further. Yeah. Interrogations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it. Oh, yeah. I can't tell you how many times I'll hear like, stop cross examining. Like, she, she can pick it up immediately. And I don't mean to do it.

Yeah.

It's just happening. But sure. Yeah.

Okay.

She quickly shuts that down.

What is a top strategy or technique that you've learned ethically to get what you want from people, to persuade, influence, and enroll others, strangers or people you know very well in getting something you.

Want, you have to give them a reason to want to give it to you. And it needs to come from a place of making them happy to do so. And when it becomes a place of rather a negotiation, which makes them feel like they've lost something, you couch it and frame it in a way that feels like they've gained something. And so if you and I are across the table in a negotiation, whatever you give, you've lost. But if I can say, you know what, Louis, man, you've just been doing so well. You hit 3 million on YouTube now. I mean, your stuff's just going off the charts. You know what you could be really good at, and I'd love to see, is X, Y, and Z. And all of a sudden, it's like a shift of, you're sitting on the same side of the table as me, and now I'm trying to help you inspire other thoughts that are also aligned with what I want. And that's a much. Now you're going to say, oh, that sounds sneaky. No, it's not. It's actually getting what you need sometimes in a way that is also benefiting the other person. I'd much rather that way than say, I don't like you, you don't like me. We're just gonna have a bloodbath and have at it. Sure. May the best guy win.

Right? Right.

So just don't ask for a pay. Arm wrestle. Right now. You're gonna win that one.

When you go into a negotiation, you know you're about to negotiate something.

Yeah.

What is the best intention you should have going into it so that you can create the best outcome for you and the other person still feels like they didn't lose.

The. So Chris Foss's book is fantastic. Never split the difference. And one of his things about tactical empathy is making the other person feel like you're. You want the best for them, that you're. That you're in their camp. And you're not going to get emotionally reactive in the. In the answer. You're. You. You're already addressing the issues that you're expecting them to. To think of. So, like, you'll say, you're probably thinking that X, Y, and Z. It sounds to me like he's already kind of given these hints of what he's already picking up on. And when you say what already they are thinking in their mind, you pull it out on the table really quickly. And then. And then. And then that's it. What I will do a lot of the times is somebody gives some kind of objection, not like in the legal sense in a courtroom, but I'll say Aside from that, aside from what you just said, anything else that I should know about? They say no. Great. And then I'll typically give it like a two path thing. So I will, I will ask more questions. Say, typically when I hear that some, it means that they really don't want to talk to me. And that's, that's okay. If you're not ready to right now, if there's some they actually do want to talk about, they're not sure what they want to say. Is it really one or two for you? And then you be able to kind of delve for that, but it's inviting them into a way that it's going to get you what you want at the end.

Right, right. That's interesting.

Yeah.

And how do you build confidence in conversations with people that are difficult, that are smarter than you, potentially that are older than you? How do you create confidence in challenging conversations to make sure that you're on the same playing field with the other person and you get the results you want in the conversation? Whether it's just a conversation or negotiation.

One would be to do not let defensiveness be your first step. As soon as you take that step, you're lost. Better way to do it is let your breath be the first word that you say. So if you think of your breath as a word, it kind of changes your mind of, okay, now I can address this because what we'll do is we'll hold our breath like that and then, I mean, you know, this thing kicks in our nerves, then comes in the adrenaline, then comes in the defensiveness. You realized, I haven't even breathed yet. You know, and when it comes to confidence, of course we can say it's the way you project, it's the way you smile, it's the way you pace your conversation, keeping your voice low, keeping your words slow. It's all these kind of things is the perception that I don't have to say anything more than what I need to say because oftentimes more words says less, you need to eliminate that.

Right, right. Less words says more.

Yeah, yeah. Every time.

What's it been like over the last year? You were a trial lawyer for seven, eight years, you know, small town Texas, and, you know, living your life, kids, married. And then all of a sudden you say, you know what? I think I'm going to share some of these things on social media. You know, essentially a year, year and a half ago. And in the last year and a half, it's gone from a couple videos here and there to over 5 million followers.

Right.

And people really coming to you for wisdom and advice and, you know, now your business growing, your law firm growing and opportunities coming to you.

Right.

What is that experience done for you and your confidence and also your personal life? And do you feel more stressed or overwhelmed or a sense of pressure now that you have this larger following and people looking to you for advice?

Yes. It has helped my law firm in a big way because I don't tell people what I do, but they're interested in it, and so they go and find me. Now sometimes I'll just get calls from people who just want to talk. Sure. Or people who act like they're a client just so they can talk. But by and large, it's been very helpful for my business and it's always helpful for my trials. I have several trial settings this fall. There's not a judge who hasn't seen the videos. There's not a closing counsel who hasn't seen the videos. And so it's good and bad because it makes me very hyper aware of my interactions with them. Because as soon as I say one thing that's off, then, oh, Jefferson's not who he is. Which is just not true. But I would say absolutely, it's built a lot more pressure.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, that's. I think it was one of the sources of the. When I had my first panic attack at the beginning of this year, because even though you have more followers, it's also very isolating in a way, because I know law very well. And when I had that, I had a lot of people at my table, so to speak. I had mentors, I had friends, I had other people who. I mean, other lawyers and my. My family. I had studied it. I knew I'd read all the things. And it started out awesome. The social media thing was just going in my car for a little bit and making a video what was off the top of my head. And now it's gotten much more serious. And with that, there's a pressure of not wanting to give bad advice. I'm certainly never going to act like I know everything I can. Of course I can give bad advice. I mean, it's. It's inevitable. So you have that kind of feeling and it's a lot of eyes on you. So with anybody, it's kind of that imposter syndrome. Like, do I really know what I'm saying? You know, it isn't. I really. Do I really know it or I'm just fooling everybody. Wow. And so you kind of have to Battle that in your head and go, no, no, I've done this. I've done this. Like. And I say done, like, I've lived this, I've lived that. Although this has been my life.

Yes.

And as long as I share my life and I'm authentic to who I am, I'm never going to be an imposter. Right.

Because you started opening up recently and did some different videos about the, you know, kind of mental health, panic attacks that you've experienced. When did you have the first panic attack? How did that make you feel? And how have you been able to manage that feeling of overwhelm or, you know, panic?

It was in February where all of a sudden I had a whole bunch of videos that were taken off, videos that I had posted like, two weeks prior going viral. You got it? Yeah. Like four of them, all in a row. And it was me going, I don't know what's happening. Somebody at Instagram messed up. Like, you know, like the. Like this. This can't be. And as it continued to grow, then I started seeing more people with. I didn't have a blue check. All these more people with a blue check following me. And that was before you can buy it. And then I'm seeing other celebrities and going, hold up here. What's happening? And then I knew I needed to build a website because I didn't have a website. So I'm staying up super late, like, working on some.

Put something together.

Yeah, just anything, Any. Anything. There's no team. It's just. It's just this guy. And it was a little after midnight. Wife, kids were asleep. And Lewis, it felt like somebody had gotten that little piece of paper and just wafted it in front of my face, like a very cool. Just rush. And I said out loud in the kitchen, I said, what was that? Because I was like, is this a ghost? Just, you know, jump over me? And just like that, it was. I just. All of a sudden, I could hear it in my ears, tightness in my chest, and my whole system just started to, like, freak. I was really against. I was convinced that was a heart attack and I was dying.

Holy cow.

Because I knew it could not have been anxiety.

Really? Why?

Because you what? I mean, like, it was like, I. I stressed for breakfast.

Yeah, I'm chill.

You know, I mean, trials I've had, you know, me, stressful situations and money on the line. This stuff I eat. Stress, we can do. This was such an ignorant mindset. But at the moment, I was like.

You thought you were having a heart Attack.

I thought I was having a heart attack because there could be no other explanation in my mind because I don't have anxiety. I don't have panic attacks. That's for people who don't have their life together. That was the very wrong mindset that I had.

What happened during that night, and how did you get through it?

Oh, well, I went to the ER because I thought I was dying.

Wow. And did you drive yourself? Did your wife Driving. Did you call 91 1?

I called 91 1. Yeah.

The ambulance came to pick you up. The whole thing. Lights, sirens, the whole thing. Dude, they bring out the.

Oh, yeah, I was. I was shaking so badly. Like, uncontrollable shaking. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what was going on. All I knew was, like. All I could tell my wife is, something is not right. Like, that's all I could get out of my mouth. Something is not right. That's true. Something was not right. My body's like, no, your body was convulsing. Yeah, my body was like, yeah, you're not right.

It's like, shutting down, the system. Powered down. Yeah.

All of that. Yeah. At 34 is the first time I've ever had that kind of experience. It was very real. I mean, as physical and tangible as. As heart pounding. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so sweating, dizziness, all of it.

I couldn't tell if I was gonna throw it. I, like, I was. I was like, lord, anytime, please. Because I hated the. The whole thing. It just felt like it was days while you're just shaking. So I get down to the hospital, they run my blood work. By that time, I'm having, like, what you would call, I guess, aftershocks. Like, I'd. I'd be good, and then I'd have another. Just, like, onset, and then intense heart.

Palpitations, and then it would go flat.

And then I just, like, everything in my body, like, clench up. It just. And that happened for, I. I don't know, two hours or so. And then they just said, well, you just. No heart attack. Your heart's good.

Yeah. Your blood works fine.

Everything was healthy, healthy as can be. But you just. You had a. Had a panic attack. And I was like, excuse me? What? Like, you had a panic attack?

I was like, no, I'm for sure my heart had.

I was like. I was like, are you sure? You just. It's okay. I'll get a heart monitor. It's okay.

But, yeah, so that's panic attack. When they said that how did they make you feel?

It made me feel very normal and. And. And messed up. It made me feel like I was. Something was wrong with me. Like, it made me feel like, oh, no, I am. Now I'm one of them. Like, now I'm. Now I'm somebody who can't control my thoughts. Now I'm somebody who, like, now I am going. Then, like, the panic of the thoughts. So some of those thoughts in my mind.

Panic of. The panic attack.

You got it. Yeah. Because in that moment. Yeah. I can tell myself, of course. No, you. You're perfectly normal. Yes. You're supposed to have your body is. This is all natural. I could say that now in that moment, it was. Well, what's. What's. What's happening is my brain is falling apart. Because you would have these rapid thoughts that would come. These crazy thoughts that I could not stop. Like.

Like. What thoughts?

Oh, you. For whatever reason, they would revolve around. Like. For whatever reason, death was a trigger. Like, any thought of dying or the topic of it would just, like, send my whole body into a Fritz. And that's so bizarre coming from. Never in my life has this happened ever. And here I am, the guy who is at the time is going, it was the night that my fallen hit a million is when it happened. Wow.

The night you hit a million.

The night in a million. But it was the thought of. Here's this guy who gives all this communication advice about, you know, blah, blah. And I'm just rippling. And I'm just melting. I had another panic attack for the next eight days.

Every day.

Every day.

Did you call the ER every time or. No, no, no, no. I knew this was happening.

Yeah. The second time. The second time was at the office. And I was like, oh, no. I said I was like, oh, no. But at that point, I knew I wasn't dying. And that's a. That's a very big relief.

How long did the second one last?

Just as long as couple hours. Yeah. Yeah.

So you're sitting in the office for a couple hours, like, laying down on the couch, breathing.

I'm straight. Just, like, pulling out the Headspace app. I'm working with my breathing. I'm like, yeah. And so.

And the next days after that, it was the same.

They got a little bit shorter. But it would happen in terrible times.

Wow, man.

Yeah, it was terrible. It was a horrible time. And then I was like, man, I gotta see what this is. I gotta see what this is about. So I spend, like, a full day marked off my calendar of, like, I am researching everything I want to know about this topic because never in my life had I been on our radar.

What'd you find out about. What'd you. What'd you discover?

So I discovered several things. One was part of that response that your body is going through. Your body is telling you things that something is not right. You're. Because I have a great mental game. Yeah. I can tell myself just about anything. Like, no, I'm not nervous. I'm excited. I. I'm. I am very happy to be here.

Or I'm prepared. I'm here someday. Yeah.

You got. Yeah. I have to have this mindset of calm, cool, and collected. When I walk in that door, when I walk through those courtroom doors, they need to. I need to look like I've already won. I just need to show them why. And. And here in this mindset was me saying, actually, your body knows better than you do.

You can't out think this.

You got it.

Yeah.

Cannot think.

You gotta feel it.

Yeah.

And move through it.

Yeah. There's that book. I can't remember. The author body keeps the score.

Yeah.

And. Incredible. Yeah. So I. I ordered that book, like, right away.

What did you learn about your. Yourself, your body, your memories of the past that were causing this?

There was a sense of. And this is gonna. It's gonna sound weird, but it was a sense of immediate isolation. Okay. I have a million on my phone. Between me and you, it's just a digit from a number on my phone. That's it. No different than if I just press one on a keypad on my calculator on my phone. But that number meant much more significance. And of course, there are a lot of creators that have way more than that. But for somebody who's just been in his car, who doesn't see any of these. Right. I'm in a small town, I'm growing law firm. I'm just doing all I can. And then all of a sudden, I felt like a lot of eyes were on me and I had nobody to help. Like, there was nobody. I couldn't. If I called my best friend, he'd be like, he doesn't understand. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, oh, that's. That's a. That's a bummer. You know, I just. They couldn't. They couldn't. I could tell. Hey. What do you think?

I'm glad I reached out to you then.

Yeah. Yeah.

Good timing.

It really was. I'm telling you. That's why I. I thank you immensely because that. That was Just to have that, that presence.

Yeah.

Is to know that I, if I need to, I can call or somebody who's kind of been through that, that change.

And so now there's probably only four, maybe five people that I can have. Share everything with. Yeah. That will actually not judge me, that will relate to it in some way that maybe has already had some type of experience like that that will, you know, have compassion for me where if I said these things to other people or publicly or whatever it might be, people just want to understand or want to get it. And I'm not saying that. Or take it wrong or they might take it wrong. And I'm not saying that I have like some unique experience that's greater or better than others. It's just a different, unique experience from a different position of life. And it's not a better, worse than good, bad. It's just a different perspective.

That's right. Yeah.

And it's. Yeah. There's. There's only a few people that I can really fully just let loose with.

Yeah. But that's, that's, that's smart. I mean that's biblical. That keep your friends very close and few and your, Your true ones that love you no matter what.

I mean, where I can say all this stuff.

The.

You got it messy, nasty, the, the unfiltered. The unfiltered stuff, the raw, the.

Oh yeah. All of that.

And it's. Human beings need that at every stage of life.

Yeah.

You know, whether you're 14 and.

Right.

Dealing with stuff in your mind or some weird stuff or you're 40. You know, we all need those people that we can have those conversations with.

Yeah. Yeah. Every, at every stage, at every level. If, if you don't have that outlet, your, Your body's going to carry it for you.

Absolutely.

Until it can't.

Until anymore it's going to release in.

Some way until it can. And, and that's, that's what happened with me was just that, that feeling of big time isolation. I've been. There were more brands and like, you know, like people email you and call you and you need to want something from me. Yes. And oh, we see this and you ought to do. And so you're going, wait, man, look, I just, I gotta get chicken nuggets in the oven right now. You know what I mean?

Like, can you please my kids crying over here.

Yeah. Like, I get home, it's. It's mayhem. It's bath time. It's, you know, you just. Yeah. There's no, there's no team of anything beyond the guy in the car yet. But it was definitely that feeling of. I felt like my life was just, like, starting to just expand in a. In a very surreal way that my body felt despite what my brain was telling me.

What did you realize about yourself from those eight days of panic attacks that you were holding on to, that you were resisting or that you were not ready for yet?

It was a sense of don't let them down.

Like, that was what, the number. The number of people watching or following.

Yeah. Because they'll comment, they message, they. They say incredibly nice, heartfelt things. I still get to read them. And they're just the kindest. Yeah. Kindest things that you go, I do not deserve to read. But I just. Wow. Yeah. I mean, you just. You just feel like an immediate sense of humility and like an imposter or something. Not so much imposter of a. Don't let these people down. Because they really do depend on that. That advice.

For whatever reason, that daily message you.

Give them, they've chosen the guy in the car in the driver's seat. They want hear what his thoughts are on. On X, Y, and Z, which I love. I truly do love it, and I hope I do it for the rest of my life. But it is in that moment, in the very first beginning of me saying, okay, this is happening. Like, this is. I guess this is happening. That was a immediate sense of settling into that ex. That expectation. I also learned that I was getting a bad habit of holding my breath when I was working or doing things.

You weren't breathing as your body was like.

Yeah. And so I know that feeling there. Yeah. So I was reading. And that part of that panic attack is the same sensation you get when your body's drowning is because I'm holding my breath, depriving myself of oxygen, and my body is, like, kicking in. Yeah, you got it.

It needs more oxygen.

You got it. And so without me just thinking in the day, I was catching myself more.

And more, holding my breath or shallow breathing or various.

That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Of course I'm alive, but it's like I'm holding it more than I'm letting it out. And I'm not fully utilizing my body, which tells me that there's that tension, that, like, tightness. Yeah. So once I realized that I was holding my breath, that's what taught me of. I. Okay, let's. Let's fix that.

Right.

Because once I started fixing that much, much, much better. Yeah.

There's something I've learned over the years about. And I'm curious how you approach this. And I don't always get it right. And I don't always. It doesn't always work for me. But a psychological strategy when someone is quote unquote, attacking me or saying nasty things about me that I don't believe are true, or maybe it's just I don't like their way they're saying it and I don't want it to penetrate my heart and my soul and be reactive and defensive and frustrated into all.

These things when the brow goes like.

Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a. A field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off.

Okay.

The words, the intention, the energy. It comes and then blink. It just goes around me and.

Right.

Like water off.

And I feel like there's a Star wars reference, but yes. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.

Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically.

Yeah.

And an image of it. The ego of me here.

Yeah.

I'll say, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.

Yeah. There's attachment.

They're just speaking over here. I'm not actually speaking to me. They might be looking at me, but it's just redirecting right here.

Right. And.

Oh, this doesn't affect me.

Yeah. They're talking to that guy.

Yeah. And I saw, I think I saw. I think it was Salma Hayek one time talk about this. She was giving example somewhere online about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don't speak Spanish, you're not going to get defensive.

Right.

You're just going to be like, okay, I have no clue what this crazy person is saying to me. Okay. So just act like it's a different language.

Right.

These different ways of like separating yourself from that.

I like that too.

Or the potential pain.

Yes.

What have you learned to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually when this feeling of panic, stress comes your way or when potential attacks come your way emotionally.

So very similar to yours. I, in my mind, I visually have a trash can next to me.

Oh, okay.

All right. And I can see it. It's one of those big, huge gallon ones. It's the black shiny. It's. You got it. Yeah. And I see what they're, they're saying is just a shoot. So I can see the words coming and I'm sipped because the issue they're telling me is not the real issue. And so if I hear something that's offensive, that's not nice, I just. Okay, that's trash. Let me just. I'm just. In my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up and throw it. Like, that's. That's what I'll do with my. With my thoughts. And I'm sifting to where if they might have led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that and send it back to it. Yeah, send it back. And. Oh, I just. I got a good one coming instead. Yeah, you got it instead. If I throw that one away, if I just trash it. And then I found the one word that they said at the very end, towards the end, and that was. That was the one word. And then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kind of crumble. But that's. I just imagine a trash can.

Wow. It's interesting. Now, how do you not. How do you communicate your worth when someone is being offensive or adding a little digs underneath their language? Maybe they're trying to get a message across and they're frustrated, so they're saying a few things that would be offensive to you potentially or maybe hurt you or maybe kind of put you beneath.

Yeah.

How do you create a boundary consciously with them so that they don't keep doing that in the future, where it's letting them know, hey, this. This type of communication doesn't really work for me. It's not. Okay. And owning your worth.

Yeah.

While also being able to throw it away at the same time and not let it get to you? Like, how do you navigate that so that that doesn't continue to happen in friendships or relationships or in career.

Right.

Where that doesn't continue? Like, I understand we can do it once or twice, three times. But if someone's always doing that to us.

Right.

How do we create that boundary and consciously communicate our worth?

Depending on the context of who that person is, who they are in your life. Some people you can't get away from, or family members, what have you. But it's a balance of your value. And then what we're going to just call as what I'm interested in. So if somebody were going to say something that's offensive in a way, and they are pushing me, it's a much more powerful move, a very dominant, assertive move to say, I'm not interested in returning what you just gave.

Oh, wow, that's a. It's A power move.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And see, it's.

So if I say, Jefferson, you know, it was pretty eotic what you did the other day to me, and I just didn't, you know.

Yeah.

You just looked like an idiot. But I. What I really want to do is because I want. Moving forward. I want us to go do this thing instead of. Right whenever. I'm just.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with. Yeah, I'm with you.

How would you respond to something like. Like that?

So if somebody. Well, what you kind of did was you. You, like, hit it into something else that they did. So what I would first do is call that out. I hear two points.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, I'm not going to skip that.

So you want to. You want to just throw the trash away right away.

Got it.

You want to address it.

Well, because they're trying to hide the trash and the good.

Yeah.

And so I. My response is, well, I see two different things. So that first point, I don't have an interest in responding to whatever. Or I'm going to say, well, maybe I did look like an idiot, but I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be holding on to whatever message you're trying to send to me. But it's a much more dominant move to say, I have no interest in returning what you're sending. Right.

I have no interest in calling you what I saw yesterday. You do. Or something like that.

You got it. But if you use the phrase I have no interest, I have no interest in. In talking about your opinion of my performance.

Oh, interesting.

You know what I mean? Like, it's. Obviously that's not something you want to start off with because that could sound. That could sound defensive. That can sound issues. But the point of it is, when you say I have no interest, you're letting them know I don't have an. It's like you're saying that as you're doing the trash can thing. I really don't have an interest. And you know what? This. This kind of food, it's not great for me. Doesn't really settle well with me. But what does taste good is what you said, you know, about X, Y, and Z, and so you kind of imagine those words as part of. Let's say it's kind of, you know, your diet. Sorry, I'm a little lactose intolerant, but.

Right.

So let's skip the milk and talk about something else.

What are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in Any conversation.

Number one is silence. Just nothing. So if somebody were to say something that's snarky, the best move is to say nothing. You just kind of sit back, you look around, you look up, you look off. I'm telling you, nine times out of 10, they can't take it.

Really.

They can't take that silence because then it's spread out. You've just exposed. Instead of you covering it up with something else that says, excuse me, what did you say? You're just leaving it open. Kind of like, I really wish that the best foot you're gonna put out right now, you go, that's the one we're going to choose. And if you just let that silence sit there oftentimes, and you probably heard this, they go, I shouldn't have said that. You got to give them that chance.

That's number one.

Yeah. Number one is you got. You got to give them the chance of that silence. Number two, acknowledge that it could be without acknowledging that it is. And you say of saying, well, maybe. So maybe you're right.

And I say, you're right. No, but maybe you are.

Maybe. Maybe you're right. But it's that piece of humility that says, yeah, well, maybe you're right. At a guy once who said I was deposing him and, you know, all these, all you lawyers, worst things that ever happened to America kind of talk. I said, well, maybe you're right, but today's just going to be a conversation between us. Is it okay if you're just talking to Jefferson? And he said, yeah, I can do that.

Wow.

And so it's that ability to just say, well, maybe so, but I could have. I could have gotten really defensive with him. I could have. I could have chosen to take him that personally. Instead, I just dropped it. The other power. Other power move is to hold off on the timing. So when you are mad, that's generally not the best time to do it. When, like when. When you know you've done something wrong, you want somebody to be mad at you, to, like, fight me, please, like, I know I've done something wrong. Let's. Let's have this out. We'll talk about this. Yeah, you want to talk about this at noon? Right? Let's talk about.

Let's put it in the calendar for tomorrow.

You got it. Let's. Oh, well, I'm okay. And it's. I'm glad. I'm glad you said that. Well, then, you know, I don't really have my thoughts together on that, but why don't we Carlin her to talk about that at noon tomorrow. What do you think? Now they're like, oh, my God, Like, I just, I just said something that I shouldn't have said. But that's, that's a much better way of, of, of handling it. Because at that point, you have not lost any confidence. Right. You have not lost your credibility, and you just, you've maintained that you're the one in control at all times. I'm telling you, the key is just starting with your breath and choosing to be quiet. Right. If you were to, if you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like, if you were to say, I don't know, do you, do you, do you enjoy matcha tea? I go, no. Versus me thinking, no. Like, there's just a different connotation to it when you think about it.

Yeah. About 14 years ago, someone gave me a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I want or more of what I already have. And I use it all the time. When I go order a coffee, I use it. When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it. When I'm working with partners and collaborators, I use it. And the line is, what's the chance? What's the chance you give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room?

Yeah.

What's the chance you can get me in first class?

Yeah.

What's the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way? Yeah. What's the chance you can go a little more on this? And I've used that over and over again because it continues to work. And I almost use it as a game daily. Like any store I go into, I'm just like, what's the chance you got 10% off on this.

Yeah. Just to see what they say you.

Can make something happen. Yeah. Because if you don't ask, you're not going to get it.

Right.

And it's just like a way to be playful. It's a way to, like, see, can I enroll someone in something that I maybe I shouldn't be getting?

Yes.

And it often works where the unexpected happens. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly, that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?

So I do. I absolutely use the what's the chance?

Really?

Yeah. So I will use that when it feels like a stalemate between the other Attorney. And look, what's the chance that your client's going to be able to do X, Y, and Z? Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client, same way I do with, like, the reception clerk versus the hotel. I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person because I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through. Right. And so if I talk to the attorney of, Look, I can only imagine all the updates you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I know that this is how you're doing the best thing you can for your client. I mean, between me and you, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do. Or if I were to say. Or if my client were. If I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do? And it gives them something to think about.

Right.

The same way like at a. Let's say at a hotel or something like that. I can only imagine you just been. How long your shift? Yeah, yeah. Seven hours. And. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's going to be. And so you just. Yeah. You kind of create that connection with them that says, I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole then. Because that's who they are.

Yeah, exactly. That's powerful. I wanted to go back to the panic attacks for a moment. Does it sound like you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days? Have you had more panic attacks since the moment?

They've gotten less and less and less.

Less and less. Maybe like five, ten minutes at a time or something.

Yeah. So. Well, I probably haven't had a panic attack. I've gotten very close probably in the last, like, three weeks. But what it is is like a sense of boiling water. Like, I can feel the water boiling, and then. And I can feel it in my body. Like, I can feel it in my fingers of tingly. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm typically never somebody to shake my leg, but if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I'm like, okay, something's up. And then all like, that'll tell me right away of, all right, what are we doing? What's going on? Be able to kind of check in with myself and how that's been. But it's progressed much better. Yeah, it really has. Therapy helps.

Yeah.

And that was really. The source was not feeling alone in this Kind of ecosystem that I didn't ask for. Like, this is never my goal of, like, if I can only get so many followers.

Yeah.

I was like, let's just go. I don't know. I got a few minutes. I go talk to my phone.

Yeah, yeah. What is the. What is the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you've experienced over the last six months? How has your wife showing up for you and how has it made you relate to your family differently?

Well, having kids, it made me much more just empathetic as a. As a person. And I'll tell you that it's. It is a way that we relate to each other's. When I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it. My son looks a lot like me. And so, like, I can. It's very much this kind of weird inner child like, dialogue. Like, I'm telling him things that I wish I could have. Oh, I would have been told, you know, hey, man, it's okay to cry. Wow. Let it out. Let it out. I was never told that, but I went, I'm not going to make that mistake. And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time. And I love it. I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love it. And I was. And so I had to. To see that. Where I go, no, no. I've. I've had that mistake of trying to put on this Jefferson's got it all together mask. Yeah, yeah. This. I got it all. I got it all together. It's. It's. You are. Just let it out, man. So it's all good. It's all good. And he will. He'll just cry, say, I can't help it. And I'll say, you don't need to.

He's good, man.

You're good. He's. He's very. Both of my kids are extremely empathetic with. With movies. I shared something before of this was, like, not that long ago. And my son says, how your day was, dad? It was good, buddy. It was good. And he was like, what'd you do? I was like, well, it was just good. It was a good day. It was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. It was a really horrible. It was a rough day. It was a rough day. I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again. He said, so why'd you tell me your day was good when it wasn't? Wow. I said, what? He said, you didn't he said you said it was good. But it didn't. You didn't say it like it was good. I was like, how did you, how did you know? He's like, you said it like it wasn't good. Said it like it was bad.

I feel everything.

Yes. And I was like, how are you this young? And like he had already since it. He told me he was good. He wasn't.

Wow.

And so that kind of aspect of it, when you say, how's my wife showing up for me, she's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore. Hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after. And we support both of our careers. She has a full time career as her doing her thing in school and school and I have my, my legal career. And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything. Like you could, you could call it Instagram. Like, nobody at my house. It doesn't exist at my house. It's just your dad, mom, kids.

Right.

Mayhem. Right. That's all, that's all it is. Now. She's very supportive of it. And they know that every once in a while dad will make a video.

Sure.

So. Because they want to make videos.

I'm curious with your upbringing, which sounds like you had a great upbringing, but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life, and with what you're experiencing now from, you know, building your career, getting married at a young age in today's society, and now having this kind of following and presence. What are three lessons? If you could only teach three lessons to your kids right now, what would those three lessons be that you wish you would have known growing up or that you did know and you want them to know?

One would be always be authentic to who you are personally. Don't ever try to be anybody else than who you are. I can tell you that anytime I felt like I've needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call. Every time that I try to be either more or less than just exactly who I am, you know, I see it as just a floor in an elevator. Doesn't mean it's a better floor or not. It just, you need to be exactly where you're meant to be. Two is it's okay to feel like there are. It's okay to make mistakes. I grew up in a house where it was very. It was a lot of it, I'll admit. Let's put on myself expectations of being the best at everything you can be. Whatever it was, I just enjoyed it and. But the understanding that they don't have to put that pressure on. On themselves. And number three is be kind to everybody. Kindness. Kindness, never. It never changes. People value it now. They always have.

We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes. Jeffersonfisher on Instagram.

Yeah.

All over social media you can find you. I'll have everything linked up there.

Oh, cool, thanks.

You've got a. Got a book you're working on that we'll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out. But I want people to follow you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all the places. Hopefully we'll get you on YouTube soon. Yeah. And you do a daily video, man, your video. I mean, almost every day it seems like it's like every day you're given wisdom, you're given inspiration from daily lessons and law and your experience in life and.

Right.

It's really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service. So I want to acknowledge you for the consistency and I also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you've experienced.

That was hard.

And being vulnerable with your community and saying, hey, listen, guys, this is something I've never experienced. And you know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I've never experienced in my life. And. And I think it's powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us. You got it. And stress us. So the fact that you're talking about it is probably allowing you to release some.

It really is.

And relax some. I'm saying it's going to solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it's allowing you to set yourself free. So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs.

Yeah. Thank you very much. That's very well put.

Yeah. So I acknowledge you for that. It's interesting. There's a question I ask a lot of people. I've got two final questions for you, but before I ask those, there's a question I ask a lot of people on here who rise to success or audience growth quickly within a period of time, of seeming overnight or months or a year. Right. Where they get this big audience And I asked this question. I was just curious because I want people to listen and hear the response. So if you could go back before you posted your first Instagram video year and a half ago or whenever it was or when you did it and you didn't have that many followers, if you could go back and ask yourself on a scale of 1 to 10, how much inner peace and self love you had for yourself, 10 being a very high level in a humble way. One being zero piece, all chaos and stress inside of you. Where were you on a scale of 1 to 10 before the rise of social media success? 10 being very peaceful internally and calm and confident and less stress and one being chaos.

I would probably say I was a. I was a solid eight. There was a sense of you sure you want to put yourself on the phone and in your car. You know, friends are going to see this. Right, Right. Like I'm not worried about strangers. You worry about your friends.

Sure.

You know, it's, it's easy. You could have all these followers who you really care about. Sometimes they wait, my friends saw this and they didn't.

They don't like it. What do they think about me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's much easier to get in your head about the people that are in your circle.

Sure.

Than the people that are outside.

So you're a solid eight.

Yeah.

Before you started doing all this. Yeah. And then where would you say you currently are, you know, for the last few months? Consistently.

Yeah. How I've been. I would say my nine right now.

So you have more peace and more self love.

Really? Yeah. Well, it had it not been for what I went through at the beginning of this year. Anxiety.

Interesting.

It's made me. It's really made me hug myself in a way.

Oh, interesting.

And, and to. Because I would get myself in a place of. I've always been pretty good at. Okay, I'll do a video and they'll either like it or they won't. I guess, you know, you just go into the house and you live life. But it is a different aspect here of. I very much feel that, that I am cultivating a community of like minded people that. I mean when I posted that video of explaining about my anxiety, that was a very difficult video for me to even get out. It's a very difficult video for me to even watch. But the like outpouring of love that came from that was just. Now it feels like I have a lot more. It's weird. I feel more connected to them in a way than, than I did Before.

Well, vulnerability breeds connection. So. Yeah, you were opening in a different way.

Yeah.

Where were you on that scale, you know, in the beginning of the year when you were experiencing that month of panic?

I was a two man.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was not. It was not good from. From when it first started.

Sure.

To about the time right before the panic attack. Yeah. I had fallen far.

This is, you know, and this is what I want people to understand because a lot of people that want to have more success, more followers, more financial opportunities, more things coming their way, and I don't know anyone, maybe one person was happier and more peaceful a year or two after. The big success came quickly. They were always a couple below what they were right before the press came. The opportunities came because they hadn't learned yet how to manage and navigate it. It sounds like you're learning now how to navigate it where you feel peaceful, confident, calm.

But had I not, I'd be right.

There with them and just trying to keep your head above water. Right. And it, and it always shocks me. I guess it shouldn't shock me anymore now. But most of us are not prepared emotionally or psychologically for audience growth that quickly, for financial growth that quickly. Although we think we want certain things, but we may not be emotionally, mentally or physically ready. Right. For the psychological pressure, which is what it sounds like. You had this pressure of this knife, this audience. I have to make sure I deliver and don't, don't give them the wrong information. What if, what if, what if I let them down?

Right. Yeah.

Pressure, which you can't really get away from unless you stop posting.

Unless you just stop.

Yeah.

This was not something I sought out to do. It was like, I'm going to be an influencer dog on it. No, I was like, I'm just going to make a video and let's see.

How a few people.

Yeah, yeah, let's. Let's try. What do I like talking about? And that was the thing was I did it because I like talking about it. And if they like listening, I guess they'll listen. And then I asked people to follow me at the end of it. Turns out they did. And then it was just like a whole different. Whole different ball game where all of a sudden you look around and go, wait, now if I compare this to the size of my current city in.

My town that I'm in, this is like 50 times the size of that. Yeah.

No, it's not even. Yeah, not even close. Right, right. It's. That becomes. And then I had a buddy of mine who Was like, oh, you know, you have X amount of followers. That's like X amount of state, like Dallas Cowboy Stadium or something. And I was like, why would you tell me that? It was the first thing that kind of came. But it's like you said, absolutely, you. I was not emotionally prepared on. On that level for that amount of eyes, that amount of pressure. And it wasn't until that my body literally shut down.

Wow.

That said, now we gotta. We gotta wake up and make sure you're taking care of yourself because that. That too, you were at. Was quickly starting to go into the negative.

Exactly. And that's where real bad stuff happens big time.

Yeah.

If you don't address it. So I acknowledge you, man, for. For doing the work and for continually doing it, because it's. Healing's a journey.

Yeah.

So I'm glad you're on that journey and feel free to reach out anytime you want some support or just a chat.

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it's so much that you've. That you've been here for sure that. That means a lot to me.

For sure, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end called the three Truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you want to have. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make, all these things, they have to go to the next place with you or they're no longer in this world. Yeah, this conversation is gone, but it's your last day on earth and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world. And this is all we have to remember your wisdom by. What would be those three truths or lessons for you?

Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who's an old East Texas attorney. He said, boy, you can't look back and play on a straight row. That's always stuck with me. Meaning encouraging people to be in the moment, in the present. If you look at what you're doing, rather than looking for the next worry, your head's always going to be in the right place. Number two is you treat people however you want to be treated. Just that very basic golden rule that we've all heard. But sometimes it's the things we've heard the most that we really have soaked up the least. And too many times that I've. You know, we skip over it. And number three would be that at any time that you can show person kindness because you you'll never regret it there's so many things that I feel like generationally in our existence that we just got wrong it wasn't our fault we just weren't ready like we thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now or you look at how we handle punishment or entertainment versus now but kindness is it's not affected from inflation or recession or it doesn't depreciate low kindness can invaluable I.

Love it that's a great truce man final question Jefferson what's your definition of.

Greatness Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy to everybody that you touch curiosity is an anti fragile characteristic curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind curiosity.

Is highly positive everybody all these different.

Places talk about curiosity as an avenue.

To success for a variety of reasons.

You pick up more you're interested pay attention the other person feels very connected with.