Destroy LAZINESS By Doing This FIRST THING In The Morning! | Lewis Howes

Over the course of 1,300+ interviews on the School of Greatness, I learned that the biggest difference between those who do and those who don't comes down to a few things. I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really?

Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Hey everyone, today we are going to discuss something that holds so many of us back from achieving our ultimate human potential, and that is laziness and lack of motivation. Now, we all know we need to rest and we deserve time to recharge, but I found that so many talented individuals spend so much time over the years never taking action on their dreams. They push them down, they promise themselves that they'll eventually get to it, and all too often one of life's greatest tragedies happen as a result. The dreams these individuals have, they die inside of them. And we all know people who have been in that situation, and it's truly heartbreaking to witness someone with so much potential. And that's the last thing I want for you, which is why I wanted to tackle this issue in today's episode. And I'm gonna give you the 3-step blueprint to destroy your laziness once and for all. We'll also cover the mindset shifts you need to make, the critical question that you need to ask yourself, and the proven tools to help you get motivated and stay motivated for the long haul of your life. All right, I want you to get out a pen and a piece of paper and let's jump in right now. Before we really get into this, we must discuss the process to overcome laziness. And I think it's important that we take time to set the stage for this conversation with a mindset shift and a question. So first, the mindset shift. I want you to understand that laziness, procrastination, And the lack of motivation is 100% natural. It's something that's embedded in our biology, and that even the world's top performers deal with this. Okay, so you don't have to feel bad if you feel lazy sometimes. Most importantly, it's something that you should never feel ashamed of. This is what everyone deals with. And there are ancient journal entries from the Emperor of Rome, Marcus Aurelius, where he's convincing himself why he should get out of bed in the mornings. Now think about that for a second. The most powerful person in the world at the time was trying to persuade himself to get out of his warm and comfortable bed. And in the text, he talks about his responsibilities and how they would still be waiting for him even after he slept in. Now, if Marcus Aurelius struggled with it, then us struggling to wake up in the morning doesn't automatically make us lazy. It's just something we all deal with. And now for the simple yet powerful question I want you to ask yourself. Are you experiencing laziness or are you just afraid? Now here's what I mean. Oftentimes we confuse our fear of failure with not being motivated. So many of us are scared to put ourselves out there to truly fight for our wildest hopes and dreams. We're afraid that if we try our absolute hardest for our dream and then if we don't achieve it, then our identity will be destroyed. Our image will be destroyed. So we protect it by not taking action on the things we know we need to do. And I'm here to tell you that this is a very dangerous game you're playing if you tie your identity and your gifts to failure and successes. Now, if you're a filmmaker, a box office flop doesn't mean you aren't a great filmmaker. If you're an author, then rejections from agents and publishers doesn't mean you aren't a great writer. It's okay to fall flat on your face when pursuing your goals. This is natural. It happens. It's actually the pathway to achieving your goals. The only thing that isn't okay is not pursuing them at all because you're afraid of the outcome. So before moving on to the next part of this episode, be sure to determine if you're being lazy lately or if you're simply being afraid of trying your absolute hardest to reach your goals. Okay, now that we've set the stage, it's time to dig a little bit deeper with the 3-step framework to keep you motivated in times of overwhelm or feeling of laziness. So step 1 is to start with a single strategic change. Now let me break this down. When it comes to overcoming lack of motivation, One of the biggest mistakes I see is that people are trying to change everything all at once. Now, is this you? You try to change your diet, your food plans, when you're waking up, all these habits all at once, and then you're exhausted after 3 days. On the other hand, another common mistake I see is people trying to change too little at once. So where do you start then, and how can you meet in the middle? The best of both worlds here is starting a single strategic change to your habits. Let me break it down. Nearly all behavioral patterns can change by shifting one root habit first. And once you do, the rest of the habits will follow as a result. So this is similar to the principle that Jay Papasan and Gary Keller talk about in their hit book, The ONE Thing. And I think it will make a massive difference in your life and in your habits. So here's a good place to start. Take a few minutes to identify the bad habit that lies beneath your inability to wake up early and start the day off with a bang. Now, most of the time, the answer isn't what you first expect it to be. So the trick is to go just a little bit deeper underneath that. So for instance, maybe you think you're incapable of waking up early. Maybe you've been a night owl your entire life. And that's what's worked for you. But when you think about it a little bit further, you realize that you have a habit of going out with your friends for drinks most nights, or you want to always go out and party, and that makes you a night owl. In this example, it's more than likely the habit of drinking and staying out late that's keeping you from becoming a morning person than you being unable to become a morning person yourself. And if you work late hours or the graveyard shift and physically can't wake up early in the morning, then maybe your simple strategic change would be using your day off to meal prep for the week ahead. Now, what happens to a lot of people who work unusual hours is that they're so tired by the time they get home that they end up eating fast food or unhealthy snacks. And as a result, their energy levels are even lower than they should be. Then they have little to no motivation to chase after their dreams, and they end up resenting themselves and their job as a result. And then the cycle just continues to go on and on. For so many people, there are simple, strategic change, so just be getting more sleep. It's hard not to be lazy and unmotivated when you're physically exhausted and emotionally drained from lack of sleep. So that's one thing you got to think about. For me personally, it all comes back to my physical health. Now, when I am in control of my body and I take great care of it consistently, my mind is sharper as well. Whether it's, you know, playing sports, handball, boxing classes, or just hitting the gym, My commitment to physical health is one of the things that sets me up for everything else in my life. So no matter what you choose to start with first, the most important thing for step 1 is doing the due diligence here to dig a little bit deeper. And again, what is the root cause of the thing holding you back from being more consistently motivated? Is it a poor diet? Is it too much alcohol? Is it too little sleep? And once you pinpoint it and take action to reverse it, everything else will get a little bit easier to be motivated. Now step number 2, this is a huge one. Find your meaningful mission. Again, over the years I have had the privilege of interviewing some of the world's top performers across a variety of industries. And they're all unique in their own way, but there are a handful of similarities that I've found to be consistent across everyone from world-class athletes to best-selling authors. And one of those common threads is having a clear mission, purpose, and vision for their life, at least for a season of time in their life. And without a clear vision, a meaningful mission, you'll always feel unfulfilled no matter how many things you achieve in your life. And before I became clear on the purpose for my life and my meaningful mission, I always felt a little bit empty after accomplishing these big goals that I was setting out for. No matter if it was becoming a two-sport All-American athlete, breaking national records in collegiate football, making it to professional football, launching a seven-figure business, for whatever reason, I always felt incomplete mere moments after those achievements. You know, I always suffered with that information, like why am I not happier and more fulfilled? And taking it a step further, without a clear and meaningful mission, for your own life, you probably won't want to jump out of bed in the first place. So it's no wonder why you aren't motivated. Again, if you're not clear on where you're going, why would you want to get out of bed if you don't know where you're to go? And that's why I want you to take a moment to write this thought down. It's our responsibility to create a mission for our life that makes us so excited that we want to jump out of bed in the morning. Think about that. It's our responsibility. By committing your life to a purpose that is bigger than yourself, you'll be filled with a deeper level of joy, passion, and energy that you might have never thought was possible. But you got to get clear on what that meaningful mission is for you. In the iconic book Man's Search for Meaning, the author Viktor Frankl talks about his time spent in concentration camps during World War II. And despite the horrific conditions he found himself in, the two things that kept him going were thoughts of being reunited with his wife after he got out and how he wanted to finish writing the manuscript for a book he had been working on for years. And these parts of Victor's gave him meaning. They gave him a reason to continue living through all the unimaginable tragedies that he experienced. I want you to think about for a moment your life right now and the different tragedies that you might be going through. What can you hold on to? What can you attach your life's intention to on a day-to-day basis when there might be tragedy, there might be heartache, breakups, there might be career loss, there might be disease and sickness in your life and in your families? There may be a time in the future where this happens, so how do you stay consistent when there is something like that happening in the world that is unjust as well. Studies by Harvard, Cornell, and other institutions have correlated having a purpose with leading to a longer, healthier, more fulfilled life. And in fact, adults who had a strong sense of meaning were even found to be able to walk longer distances, have a firmer grip strength, and a lower risk of heart disease than those who didn't have a strong sense of purpose or meaning. Okay, so now you might be thinking, that's great, Lewis, but how do I find my meaningful mission? Well, every single person is different, so there are literally billions of answers to that question. But I think the best place to start is knowing the difference between passion and purpose. So this is what a lot of people get wrong when it comes to finding their meaningful mission. They confuse passion with purpose. And as an example, let's say you are a painter. Your entire life you've always had a gift and a deep love for art. You've even painted and sold portraits all around the world. Now, it's great that you've made money doing something you love, but it's unlikely you'll feel 100% fulfilled over the course of your life if you only paint and sell what you create. So to transform this passion into purpose, Maybe you dedicate time to teaching disadvantaged youth in your city how to paint. You use part of your gift in service. Or donating a handful of paintings every year to a charity that's aligned with your core values. These are just types of actions that will fill you up with gratitude and where a feeling of true fulfillment can begin to take root. Again, it's kind of using your gifts in service of others. Again, it's great to have a craft that you're excited about, that you're passionate about, you're talented in. It makes life so much more exciting and enjoyable when we have that. But be careful when it comes to distinguishing between passion from purpose, or confusing having money with having a meaningful mission. It's only by helping others and buying into a vision that's larger than yourself that you'll tap into the greater version of you. And once you get crystal clear on your life's mission, again, for this season of your life at least, I guarantee it'll be a whole lot easier to stay motivated. It's just gonna become natural for you and a whole lot harder to be lazy. So be sure to figure out what yours is and remind yourself of it every single morning. And now that we've laid down the foundation for you to overcome laziness and the lack of motivation, it's time for the next critical step. And that is finding your ideal morning routine. And there's lots of talk about what to do in your mornings, but you got to figure out what's best for you. It might sound simple and it's something you've probably heard 1,000 times, but morning routines are popular because they work for people. Having a consistent ritual sets the tone for the rest of the day. And by overcoming laziness in the morning, you're telling your brain and the world that you're ready to keep up the momentum for the rest of the day. As well. More specifically, your ideal morning ritual should address the single strategic change you need to overcome that we discussed in step 1 of this video. It should also include reminding yourself of the meaningful mission that we just covered in step 2. And the rest is honestly up to you, which is exciting that you can create this yourself, but it can also be a little bit overwhelming, okay? And that's why I put together this list of 6 morning rituals that I found to be absolutely game-changing, as well as the routines that work for some of the amazing guests I've had on over the years. Now, again, I'm gonna give you this list, but it doesn't mean you have to do all of these things. It doesn't mean you have to spend 4 hours in the morning. That's not what this is. But having something you can do every day to get you going is a powerful thing to do. Number 1, I want you to listen to the Daily Motivation Show. Now, I'd be doing myself a disservice if I didn't tell you about this. This show is designed for individuals who want a kickstart, who want inspiration and insights to really take their day to the next level. Again, it's called The Daily Motivation Show, and it's exactly for individuals who want to kickstart their day. All of the episodes are under 10 minutes, and there's a new one that drops every single morning. And the genesis for the show came to me because of over the course of 1,300+ interviews on The School of Greatness, I learned that the biggest difference between those who do and those who don't comes down to a few things, and that's dedication, direction, and consistent motivation. And it takes constant reminding, guiding, and course-correcting for us to pursue the life of our dreams year after year, month after month, day after day with all the different adversities that come into our life. It takes a daily dose of motivation like you get from this show. The feedback's been incredible. And I'm happy that it's helping so many listeners take action on their dreams. So make sure to check it out in the description below this video or audio. Subscribe, leave a review if you enjoy it, and just make it a part of your morning routine, 10 minutes a day. Number 2, narrow your focus with sticky notes. Now this one comes from billionaire entrepreneur and Shark Tank personality Kevin O'Leary. Instead of overcomplicating his mornings with a million different tasks, and busywork. He focuses on a simple yet effective technique. Every night before bed, Kevin takes out a sticky note and he writes down the one thing he needs to get done the next day. Just one thing. If nothing else was accomplished, getting this task done would make that day a success. Then he places that sticky note on his bathroom mirror, right? Right there when you wake up. That way, when he gets up in the morning, it's front and center for him to read and remind himself what to focus on. This helps him stay clear on his top priority for the day and serves as a daily reminder that he won't fall victim to laziness or distraction. Number 3, keep yourself accountable through social media. Every morning at the crack of dawn, former Navy SEAL and bestselling author Jocko Willink takes a picture of his watch and he posts it on his Instagram. He usually gets up around 4:30 AM. Now I'm not saying that you have to get up that early. I don't get up that early. But the habit of posting something like this on your social media will help you on the days that you're feeling not so motivated. The reason is if people who follow you are used to seeing you get up at a certain time to start your day, then you'll start to feel more obligated naturally to keep up with that habit. That is the power of group accountability or some type of accountability partner. That's why I'm a big fan of having a coach or being a part of a program with this. Even on the days that you're exhausted and you don't feel like doing anything, having people in your corner who you don't want to let down can help push you across the finish line. And as the saying goes, iron sharpens iron. Number 4, try out the 5-second rule. My good friend and bestselling author Mel Robbins said this to me when she was on the show: we as humans make decisions based on our feelings, and that's exactly what's robbing us of joy and opportunity. And the only way we can truly change our lives is with one 5-second decision at a time. And that's exactly why she developed the 5-second rule, which has now become used by so many people across the world, and I think it can be a game changer for you when it comes to waking up early and starting off your day right. So here's what the 5-second rule is: whenever you have to make an important decision, whether that's making a cold call, going to the gym, working on your book, or getting up the second your alarm goes off, Mel says you should all count down from 5 to 1 and then take action. So 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and go. And science says this practice works because there's a 5-second window between an instinct or motivation and the hesitation to not act on it. The reason is because our brains are designed to help protect us from harm, so they'll magnify any feeling of doubt and trick us into not taking any action at all. This is why it is so critical to leverage the power and momentum of the moment during the initial 5-second window, to take action during that window. So next time you're lying on your pillow when you first wake up and your brain is telling you to stay in your warm, comfortable bed and that you're missing one day at the gym isn't really that big of a deal, use the 5-second rule. Count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and then just get up and start taking action. And if you can master this powerful principle, you'll be able to start to destroy laziness in no time. Number 5, this is one of my favorites, is to make your bed. As simple as this one sounds, it's absolutely essential to me in developing the discipline I've needed to reach my goals. And every morning I make my bed, not just because it, it makes it look nice, but because it affirms that I am in control of my day. And I like to clean my space before I leave my space. Making my bed sets the tone for me. And it reminds me that no matter what happened the day before or what will happen to me today, there are still things I have total control over in my life. I can take action on in my life. And I can choose how I wish to respond to what happens to me. I can choose which thoughts I listen to or don't listen to. And I can choose the type of person that I'm becoming. Jordan Peterson talks about the importance of making your bed in the morning as well, and he says that before we solve the problems of the world, we need to take control of ourselves and our own lives, and having a clean bedroom is a great place to start. Number 6: Get outside into the sunlight. This final morning ritual we'll be covering comes from Stanford neuroscientist and good friend of the show, Andrew Huberman. And it turns out that getting sunlight doesn't just feel good because it warms us up in the morning. It also has a lot of scientific benefits as well. Andrew has been on the record saying that getting anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes of sunlight exposure first thing in the morning is perhaps the most important thing that we can do for our mental and physical health. So let me say this again. Andrew has been on the record saying that getting anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes of sunlight exposure first thing in the morning is perhaps the most important thing we can do for our mental and physical health. That's big, and this is an easy thing that we can all do. By doing so, our body's metabolism, hormone system, and mental state will be moving in the right direction at the very start of the day. This is huge. This doesn't take some crazy thing you gotta do. This is 2 to 10 minutes a day. With this in mind, maybe your ideal morning ritual It could be going for a short jog, taking your dog for a walk outside, jumping rope on the porch, or something else entirely. But as long as you're getting sunlight first thing in the morning, your body and mind will be getting what they need to set things in motion. This is a big one.

Okay?

And there you have it. That's the 3-step formula to successfully overcoming laziness, no matter what your situation or where you're at on your journey. And I really wanted this episode to be actionable and cut through all the fluff while still acknowledging that you might not actually be lazy. You might just be afraid or walking through life without a meaningful mission. Okay? And I hope you found value in this blueprint and the strategies that we went over and that you'll put at least a few of these ideas to the test. And now I want to leave you with this final thought. I want you to remember that your dreams, are inside of you for a reason, that they're calling you for a reason. And many of you listening to this right now have probably trapped your dreams inside of you for so long that they are begging and screaming for you to let them out. Many of you neglected your calling, your gifts, your talents, and many of you have turned a cold shoulder to what is possible inside of you. And I am so tired of seeing it happen to the people in my life. So I want you to ask yourself this: how long are you going to continue to keep them inside of you? What is it going to take for you to finally set them free? You know, the world doesn't just deserve to see your gifts, your talents, and your dreams. The world might very well need to see them right now. So I hope this episode will help motivate you to take massive, messy action in your life right now. Because we need it from you. And wherever you are, thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you for being here. Make sure to subscribe, leave a review, leave a comment. Let me know what you enjoyed most from this. And I can't wait to see you in the next episode. If you got value from that, then go ahead and stick around for more coming up right now.

What is the— what are the keys to building confidence when you feel insecure, afraid, or scared of being embarrassed, whether it be dating someone or career or anything. What's the keys to building confidence so that you're attracting what you want?

Look, I read some of your biographical history before we talked today. And you tell a story about being picked last. And then you compensated for that. Yes. Now, Alfred Adler, by the way, the psychoanalyst, Associate of Freud, built his whole theory around compensation of that sort. Inferiority complex plus compensation. But it's adaptive, right? Like, you got picked last. It embarrassed the hell out of you. So what did you do? You decided that is not going to be me.

Never again.

Right.

Never again.

Okay. Now, you did say that you adopted a maybe too— what? Inflexible model of what it meant to be masculine as a consequence. But when I read that, I thought, Yeah, but still, fair enough. The new you that you adopted wasn't optimal in all possible manners, but it was definitely improvement over the previous you.

Exactly. I wasn't picked last again. That's for sure.

Right. Well, exactly. Okay. So the first thing I would say is that if you feel insecure and less and ashamed and all of that, that you have to take stock. And look, I have an exercise online at selfauthoring.com. There's 3 exercises there. One helps you write about the past. One about the present and one about the future. The present authoring program helps you assess your faults and your virtues. Okay, well, if you have some faults and you feel insecure and inferior because of that, well, you should. Now, it shouldn't be so much that you're crippled by it and unable to take action. You shouldn't be beating yourself into the ground because you're not everything you could be, because no one is. And If you beat yourself into the ground, then you can't get up and improve. But you have to differentiate. It's like, okay, to what degree am I being hard on myself, counterproductively critical, hearing the voice of my too harsh and angry father in my head, adopting inappropriate stereotypical representations of masculine competence? How much of my self-criticism is ill-advised? Fair enough, and you want to deal with yourself with a certain amount of care. But then along with that, there's the, well, fix your weaknesses. If you're ashamed of being ignorant, you're shown up at a party because you claim to knowledge that you don't have and someone exposes you. Well, you can be angry at them and you probably will, but they've actually done you a favor. They pointed out an inadequacy is a pathway that you can travel down. A recognized inadequacy is such a gift in some sense if it's accurate. Because you think, well, what should I do? What should I do with my life? That's a real complicated question. Oh, here's an inadequacy. Excellent. You have a goal now. Rectify it. Now you still have to think strategically and figure out how to rectify it and do it step by step. But Carl Rogers, the psychotherapist, pointed out that the person— for therapy to be successful, the person has to want to change. So they have to have recognized that they have a problem. If someone is mandated by the court to attend therapy, it's very difficult for the therapist to convince them that they have a problem. Once you're convinced you have a problem, it's like Away you go. I know it's still technically difficult. It requires discipline and all of that. There's no magic solution. But if you're plagued by feelings of inferiority, you should rectify the most obvious inferiorities. Right.

Focus on those first over optimizing strengths, would you say?

No, not necessarily. Not necessarily. And you don't have to redress every— like I can't I'm a terrible jazz musician.

It's not a thing where you hold shame around.

Well, it's not an impediment.

Yeah, yeah.

I would say that you have to rectify an inadequacy when it's clearly an impediment to your goal, or you have to shift goals. But if you're shifting goals because of an inadequacy-related impediment, then you have to ask yourself, is your desire to shift the goal reliable? Or are you just taking the easy way out? You can protect yourself by picking a different goal that's more difficult. That's a good mental hygiene practice because sometimes you should switch goals rather than rectifying inadequacies. But you can fool yourself then, and that's not good.

And if someone is goalless, lazy, unmotivated, not sure what they want to do, What would be a few key steps to get started to turn their life around or to find the motivation for something greater than where they're at?

Well, I think a fair bit of that's probably to be found in— you can find it in shame, you can find it in guilt, you can find it in conscience, you can find it in anger, you can find it in interest. And engagement and beauty. There's lots of pathways. If you're angry about something in the world, well, you know, that's an indication that that's in some sense your problem, right? It's speaking to you in a moral sense. This shouldn't be that way. Well, maybe you're the person who should do something about it in some manner. Maybe it'll take your whole life to figure out how to do that, but it's bothering you for a reason. So the negative emotions can be a pathway to transformation. I'm not trying to romanticize them. They can crush you completely and leave you with nothing. Yeah, right, for sure. And they can go badly astray. But shame, that's a good one. What am I ashamed of? Well, can you fix any of that? Because you might ask yourself, let's say you're so ashamed and so crushed that you're nihilistic and You can't see any hope for life. You're just done. You might think, well, what if I was less ashamed? Like, I'm not going to jump off the bridge today. I'm going to wait a year. I'm going to work on these things that I'm ashamed of and just see. Does my life improve enough so that I'm not so bitter about it now, or I'm not so hopeless about it now? And my experience has generally been that That works. It works. And then some of it's practical knowledge too. It's like you can get a really long way with very small changes, incremental changes, micro habit changes. So aim low.

Don't have big, big goals or big transformations.

Well, you can, but the problem with a big goal is that it's daunting enough so that it might paralyze you. And there's a high probability of failure. And so imagine that you're your own child. Okay, now imagine you love this child and you would like him— we'll say him because it's you and I talking— to succeed. Now you have an ideal for this child. You would like him to grow up to be the best he can be, better than you, the best man he can be. That's what you want for your son. If the good part of you is talking. You definitely want him to be better than you are, but you want him to be the best he could be if your vision is unclouded. Okay, but then you offer him a goal. It's like, well, do this. Well, can he do it? Well, if he can do it without a second thought, there's no challenge in it. There's no developmental impetus. It's not in the zone of proximal development. You want a goal that you can do but that requires some improvement on your part. Because you want to attain the goal, that's satisfying, but then you want to make yourself into the thing that can attain goals. And so you want to push yourself. You want to push yourself a bit far. Yes. And there's ample psychological literature that suggests that that's where maximal motivation is to be found.

Interesting.

So you're, you're pursuing a goal, but you're also pursuing the goal of transforming yourself at the same time. You're doing both of those at the same time.

Do you need to know that you're transforming yourself in order to attain the goal, or do most people just think, I got to take these steps to make it happen, but they don't realize they're becoming better human beings?

They— it depends on what you mean by realize. They, they, they have the sense of satisfaction and confidence that would indicate that, although they might not be able to make what that means explicit. But I would say it would be better to make it explicit. It adds one other dimension of possible motivation.

How do you think people lose confidence? We've talked about gaining it, but how does someone— how could someone like yourself, who's accomplished so much, who's got millions of followers, who is financially successful, has a great marriage. How could someone lose confidence once they've built it?

Illness. That'll do it. That's one way. Death of someone. Loss. I mean, there's lots of ways of having the rug pulled out from underneath you. Moral error. As the stakes get higher, as we already discussed, the consequences get larger. Ingratitude. That's a big one. You can succumb to the temptation to believe your own egotism. That's a big mistake. There's lots of ways that things can go sideways. That's for sure.

So it sounds like, you know, we start off with a lack of confidence when we're pointed at, you're inadequate in this thing. And we go down a journey of, you know, building ourselves and overcoming the challenges and diving into the fear to have these small wins to build confidence. And then the more successful we become, the more we succumb to losing that confidence again.

—when a lot— No, no, I wouldn't say necessarily that you become more susceptible to that, but you asked how can that happen, how can that loss occur. I think I still believe that genuine accomplishment, but it's ethical, it's always ethical accomplishment. I believe that to be the case. Genuine ethical accomplishment is the best source of security, but it's not unerring.

When you mean ethical accomplishment, do you mean doing something good, right, whether people know about it or not? Just good and right for yourself, is that what I'm hearing you say? Or does someone else need to acknowledge that this was good and right?

I think if you've done it for yourself, that's good. But if you do it and other people are in on it and along for the ride, that's also good. And sometimes that's better. To bring people along. If it's just a matter of them acknowledging it, well, there's value in that too. I mean, people say, well, you shouldn't care what people think of you. It's like, well, of course you should. Psychopaths don't care what people think of them. Now, you shouldn't care so much what people think about you that you're willing to lie to maintain whatever it is that you think they value. There are places beyond which that becomes counterproductive, clearly. But of course, I read the comments in YouTube particularly, and I pay attention to them. If 30 people say something— here's something I do, and I probably did it to you. When I'm interviewing, I interrupt more than a certain percentage of my audience would like.

That's my comments. It's like, just let them speak. You interrupt too much. So I just try to shut up more now.

Do you know the joke? What's the joke? Knock knock. Who's there? The interrupting cow. Moo! Sorry, that's a stupid joke, but it's a stupid joke. Anyhow, so I read those and that's what people think. And then I think, okay, I should probably try to interrupt less, but I get excited and And then with Zoom, there's a lag, and it's— that makes it harder. But I do pay attention, and you should pay attention.

I think when, you know, I hear a lot of people say don't let the opinions of other people hold you back from taking action on your goals, because I think a lot of people will listen to other people's opinions and they feel scared to do something based on someone saying, "I told you so," or "You couldn't do this," or "You're not good enough." How do we overcome that? Those opinions that keep us playing small, that hold us from putting our creation into the world or going after—

Well, generally, someone else's comment is unlikely to bring you to a halt unless you value that comment. So, imagine you're going to pursue a goal. But you're full of doubts. And so 40% of you is doubts and 60% of you is pursuing the goal. And then 5 or 6 people object and they object using the doubts. Well, that's going to be really hard on you.

So how do we overcome self-doubt?

Well, partly what that means is you probably haven't thought it through completely. Like, what are you doing and why? And if you have a bunch of doubts and they haven't been addressed, then you're vulnerable at that point. And it may be that your goal is not everything it could be, and it may be that your strategy isn't fully fleshed out. And so you have to have a conversation with your doubts and Take them seriously and see if you can construct a goal that you're on board with. And then a doubt pops up because someone criticizes you and triggers a doubt. And you look at the doubt and you think, okay, here's the doubt and this is why what I'm doing maybe won't work. But then you think, but this, I've thought this through and I've thought this through and I've thought this through and that all works. And so No, that isn't going to stop me. So I look and I think, well, I'm writing something. Why? Well, I want to figure out this problem. I want to think about this problem. Why? Well, it's an engaging problem, but it's a problem that many people seem to have, so that discussing it and figuring it out seems to be useful. Why? Well, because the more of us who take problems seriously and try to address them and communicate about them, the fewer problems we might have and the less suffering there'll be. And suffering doesn't seem to be a good thing. Unnecessary suffering. Maybe we could work towards it, and maybe that's what I should be doing, and that seems to be what's ethical, and that's it. And you might say, well, What if you doubt that doing what's ethical is right? Well, it's not that easy to construct an argument that supports the idea that having more unnecessary suffering in the world is good. So I would say, you know, you want to put yourself on firm moral foundations. And people talk about morality all the time. This is what you should do or you're a bad person. It's arbitrary. It's got this ring of patriarchal tyranny, but that's based on a misapprehension of what morality is. It's like, do you want to be tortured by your conscience? How pleasant do you find it to be tortured by your conscience? It's horrible. How horrible? Is there anything worse?

It was excruciating. Yeah. I don't know if there's anything worse.

I mean, it's up there.

You gotta live with it. Yeah. For as long as you have it. Yeah.

Well, I think that's a universal experience or near universal experience. So you live ethically when you're not violating your conscience. Right. Well, there isn't anything better than that. That might not be good enough. It might not even be good. Like, let's say you manage it. Things can still come along and take you out sideways, but the purpose of living ethically is so that you have some peace. Yeah. And it's real. Yeah. The ethical torment and the peace that emerges as a consequence. Sorry, I want to interrupt.

No problem.

What is the biggest doubt you face at this stage of your life, and how are you working to overcome it?

The biggest doubt I have is whether or not I'm going to be healthy enough to continue. By far, that's— it's a continual— it plagues me continually, continually, every second. I'm so ill.

How are you navigating that?

Well, with great care and effort. I mean, I wake up at 8, even though I'm not— my sleep is not restorative at all. It's disrupted, and I don't know why. So I sleep, but it's not restorative. I've had my sleep monitored, so I don't go into deep sleep. I get up at 8:00, period. I sauna for 45 minutes. I walk 7 miles. I work out. I write. I do my work. I stick to a very specific schedule, and I hope that that's, that I can manage that and that I'll improve across time. Yeah. So, but, um, we'll see, but it's touch and go all the time.

I've got about, uh, 14 minutes to be respectful of your time, uh, until I, you're, you've let me know that that's the, our time we've got. So I want to ask a, I want to ask a different question and get to the final few questions to be respectful of time. And before I ask this question around money, and the psychology of money. I want people to make sure they get this book, Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life, and make sure you pick up your, your other book as well, which is amazing, which is 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos. But make sure you get a copy of this book or a few copies and get them for your friends because it'll be extremely life-changing when you start going through this. I haven't heard a lot of people talk to you about money. Maybe I've just missed it. And maybe you've talked about it a bunch, but I haven't seen it.

That's a good, that's a good, that's a good question. Yeah, definitely.

I, I don't want to make assumptions, but, uh, if I was making assumptions, uh, college professors aren't typically multimillionaires. Yeah. Am I fair to say that's semi-accurate? That if you're a professor, you're not making millions, you're not this financially abundant, uh, human. You have maybe a good salary, but you're not bringing in financial abundance at the next level. Uh, and I'm not going to try to assume where you're at financially before you became more famous in the YouTube and the media sensation and the books, but I'm assuming that you've accumulated a lot more money than what you had, let's say, 5 years ago. How have you learned to manage the mindset around the, the wealth that has come to you, uh, the level of wealth that has come to you? How have you managed it? How do you deal with it now as it keeps coming in? I'm assuming more comes in with every book and success. Um, and what were your thoughts about money before this level of money came to you?

I'd never made any bones about being an evil capitalist. Well, I'll give you an example. So I built this— I told you about this software, that online program that helps people write out their past and their present and the goals for their future. We tested the future part of that to see if it worked, and it worked quite well. It was effective. And I sell it. Why don't I give it away? Well, because that's not the right price. Pricing decisions. Money is very, very complicated and pricing is very complicated. Pricing is value. It's like, well, is the right price for something zero? Well, probably not. First of all, because it doesn't take zero to make it or sustain it. There's an infrastructure, customer service infrastructure. There are people working on it constantly who could be making new things. If you can't sell it, what makes you think it's worth anything? If you can't sell it, what makes you think you've got your communication right? You can use price as an indication of whether what you're doing works. If no one will pay for it, maybe it's no good or maybe you're not talking about it properly. So I wanted to make things that would work, that would work in the marketplace. It was a challenge. There's the challenge aspect of it too. I never had contempt for money. And money for me was always— well, it was a challenge. That's one thing. And for many people who are motivated by money, money actually serves as a challenge. It's like, can I make more of this? It's a competition in some sense, like a game. Because you might think, well, they want all the things. It's like, yeah, Sort of no. You kind of, if you're sensible, you sort of max out on things pretty rapidly.

You can only buy so much and use it.

Well, and it did. Yes. And I'm not hedonistic in a manner that money would aid in some sense. Of course. Partly because I'm not 16. I'm 60, so what am I going to do with it? And I've also learned, be careful what you buy because it's not clear who owns who when you buy something. I knew this very rich couple and they had like 6 houses. Well, the poor woman, the female member of the couple, all she did was worry about the houses. One house is bad enough because it's always falling apart. 6 big houses fall apart all the time. So, you know, and you think, well, poor her, she had 6 houses. It's like, yeah, yeah, I know the problems of the rich, right? Don't we all wish we had those? Yeah, fair enough. But there's still a point to be made there. I put together a financial team. I also had to abandon my supervision of my financial affairs because I couldn't manage them. But fortunately, I had put together a team and people stepped in to manage it, and that's gone as well as could possibly be expected under the circumstances. And that is a source of security. I have accountants who do taxes, and I hate doing my taxes. Everyone does, but maybe I hate it even more. It seems to bother me a lot. In any case, that's one thing that having this money has been useful for me is that I don't have to do my taxes now. I have experts who can do that. But I've farmed it out to people and hopefully not too carelessly.

So for someone that wants to attract more wealth, gain more wealth, make more money, what do you think needs to happen psychologically for them? In order to create that beyond the actions, the doing, the solving the challenges?

Oh, well, a big part of it is, well, discipline, like hard work. What is it? You work 15% more hours, you make 40% more money. I think that's the data Warren Farrell accumulated. It's part of the reason men make more money than women because they work slightly longer hours, but it actually produces a disproportionate return. People who make money aim at it, generally speaking. I'm not talking about people who inherit wealth, but it's pretty easy to squander money even if you inherit it. But if you make it—

I'm talking about earning it.

If you don't have it, you want to make more. Yeah. Conscientiousness, which is dutifulness, industriousness, orderliness, amount of time, effort put in, that makes a difference. It makes a difference. I would say if you're trying to produce a product and introduce it into the marketplace, there are things you should definitely know. The product should work. It should be reliable. You have to put your customer service in place. If you despise sales and marketing, you're making a massive mistake. That's casual contempt. It's really hard to sell something. Hardly anybody is a good salesperson. It's an extremely demanding job. And you can, you know, oh, he's a salesman. It's like, yeah, you try it. Yeah. Oh, I wouldn't sell out. Well, that's because no one ever offered you the opportunity to sell out. If you have 10 opportunities to sell out and you reject all of them, it's like, great, claim moral victory. Until you're in that position, you're just not of interest. That's why you're not selling out. You have to understand the marketplace. You have to communicate with your customers. It's complicated and difficult. So don't despise the necessary components. All of these things are important. The product, the engineers, the people who work on it, the creative inspiration. That's the entrepreneurial end. Make the product. That's extremely necessary.

All the communication strategies.

Those are crucially important because if you have a product and nobody knows about it, then who the hell is going to buy it no matter how good it is? So you despise the things that are necessary to your success at the expense of your success.

So you got to reframe the way you think about those things.

Yeah, well, you have to look at it. It's like sales. It's like, okay, well, you're not gonna sell anything then. So that's the end of that problem. Or maybe you have moral qualms about engaging in the capitalist enterprise. Well, good luck carrying that along with you. And maybe the qualms are well merited. It's like, okay, put aside a percentage of what you make to do something— what would you call it— clearly not self-centered and generous with. You can do that. I mean, the products that I'm selling, some of them are— what would you say? They have less ethical impact than others. I do do some merchandising.

Why?

The merchandising of me was taking place anyways. You might as well do it yourself. Well, I got my son involved in it. I thought, well, there's a market. People want this. We might as well put up a genuine place. I mean, lots of the merchandise that's being produced related to me, I leave it alone. I let people do that. I don't bother them. I don't chase them down. If they can make a living putting my quotes in acrylic blocks or making posters, it's like That's fine as far as I'm concerned. But we have some things, posters and so on, and people want them. So if they want them, I don't see that it does any harm. You might think it's kind of cheap. You know what I mean? It's like the Disneyfication of philosophy. But I am interested in communicating with the public. This is sales and marketing. Most academic work languishes. Well, I don't have contempt for my readers, listeners, and viewers. I like them. I hope they do well. If they want a poster of the 12 rules and they find that useful, hey, okay. If they find a lobster tie funny, good. It's fine with me. And there's a bit of humor to it. And I can use that, and so can my message. A little bit of levity would be wonderful.

Yeah. Where can people see some of your stuff? What's the best site to go?

Oh, if you just go to YouTube channel, there's a little bar underneath it that's JBP merchandise. I mean, it's absurd, right? There's also that element of absurdity, which I kind of— and a surreal element to it that I find kind of interesting and and, and ridiculous and perplexing and, and hallucinogenic. It's very, very strange. It's all fun, you know, it's all fun.

I want everyone to go buy a lobster tie and posters and the book. I want everyone to get Beyond Order, get a few copies for your friends as well. Uh, I've got two final questions, but before I ask the questions, Jordan, I want to acknowledge you for a moment because I know you went through a lot of— you're still going through a lot of pain and challenge and adversity since the first time I interviewed you a few years ago to now. And I also know that you went through a lot of pain and adversity with your kids, with your daughter specifically, and other challenges that have happened in your life. And I acknowledge you for continually showing up in a time of uncertainty, in a time of maybe a loss of hope at different moments, in a time of physical pain, in a time of lack of sleep continually, non-restorative sleep. The fact that you continue to show up and serve is truly to be acknowledged. And I'm so grateful that you take the time to come on my show and share this knowledge because I know the impact it'll have in the service of the message and all the work that you're doing for your own content and everyone else's that you're being on. I'm really grateful that you've decided to continue to show up.

Well, whatever I might be doing for other people, they're certainly doing that for me. So I'm grateful to have the privilege, the immense and staggering privilege of being attended to. It's amazing. You know, It's so— so I don't— whatever I might be, uh, what would you say, sacrificing for it, I'm gaining equivalently. I've had so much support from people, it's just absolutely staggering.

And so we appreciate you, and you're making an impact on our lives, and we hope you're balancing and taking care of your health as well. That's the most important. I asked you two questions in the last interview that I'd love to ask you again. I'm not sure if you're going to remember them, but I want to see if you have the same or different response. Uh, the one question is hypothetical. It's called my three truths question. I would like you to imagine that many, many years away, you get to choose the last day on earth for yourself, but you eventually got to go and you accomplish everything you want to create into the world. You see your work come to life, the impact, the family, everything happens. And it's magical, right? But for whatever reason, you got to take all your work with you. So you got to take Beyond Order, all your content, your videos, podcasts, it's all got to go with you to the next place. But you get to leave behind 3 truths, the 3 lessons, the biggest lessons you've learned in your life that you'd want to share with the world. And this is all we would have. Of your content left behind, what would you see? Would— what would you say would be your 3 truths?

I would say have the faith, strive to manifest the faith necessary to make things better rather than worse. Pray that you have enough terror to be frightened out of your own deceit and strive to be grateful Regardless of— regardless, that would be— that's good enough.

Yeah, I think one of your rules is be grateful in the suffering, right?

In spite of— yeah, that's the last rule and the one that I've wrestled with most, I would say, over the last— especially the last 2 years.

Yeah, that's probably got to be the hardest to find.

Yeah, well, you know, people have their reasons. I outline them in Chapter 11. Why are you bitter? Well, here are the reasons. Oh, well, those are real reasons. No wonder. You listen to someone tell you about their life. It's so typical, so frequent, catastrophic occurrences. And yet people stumble forward positively, and it's a miracle. And a lot of that is— see, that chapter, Be Grateful in Spite of Your Suffering, it's really a chapter about, in some sense, about faith and courage. It's an act of faith and courage to be grateful because there's reasons not to be. It's a decision. It's not like you make the decision and then you've got it, you've done it right, and then you have it. It's a constant ongoing decision. The temptation to be ungrateful, to be bitter, It's always there and compelling, rationally compelling. It's easy, emotionally compelling.

Yeah, but it makes everything worse. I started using the 5-second rule to interrupt my thoughts every time I would feel that kind of worry kick in. And because the prefrontal cortex is awakened when you use it, your mind is now ready to take on a totally different thought. It's a very different strategy than just trying to switch the channel on what you're thinking. Yeah. 'Cause you're actually inserting the step that nobody talks about, which is switching the gears in your mind so that your mind can actually take and believe the thinking. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So the 5 Second Rule. Wait, first off, when did you discover the 5 Second Rule? Okay, so 2009.

That's when you first tried it or discovered it or?

Oh, it's a total horror show mistake. Okay. Yes. Okay. So 2009, I was unemployed. And feeling like unemployed.

How? Well, okay, too much charisma, too much passion.

Uh, yeah, because everything's working right now. That's why I'm not like this when things are not working. Ask my husband of 22 years. Um, uh, well, what had happened is, um, I, I had had all these career changes and I got into the media business again by mistake. I had a coaching business and, um Inc. magazine was writing an article about coaches, and they featured me in it, and CNBC called. Got it. And that led to me doing some stuff with CNBC. And I spent a year still coaching people and then doing some stuff for CNBC. And then Fox called, and they were interested in having me host a television show. Now you got to understand, I'm from North Muskegon, Michigan. I mean, the media business is different. The closest thing I had ever seen to a celebrity, Lewis, was the Muskegon Lumberjacks, the farm team, right? Right. From our— for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Yeah, my dad was the hometown doc for the hockey team there. Right, right, right. So I thought the mayor was a celebrity. Wow, my life's about to change. I'm about to be a celebrity. Wow, we're going to solve all— this is amazing, you know. So, um, I was originally going to be hosting a show for Fox where we were making over small businesses. Nice. Yeah, pretty cool, right? We show up, we like do extreme home makeover for the office, everybody's happy. We all know that doesn't solve business problems, but it makes for a nice television show. By the time I get to LA, they've changed the format. It's now called Someone's Gotta Go, and I'm gonna be firing people on national television from real jobs.

Wow. Uh-huh. That sounds fun.

Horrible. Oh my God. Plus, we haven't told the offices that this is what we're doing. Oh my gosh. So you show up in Act 1, and you've got everybody all like this, because they think they're gonna get new IKEA furniture and a paint job, and this is gonna be the best thing in the world for their small business. Now meanwhile, I'm a fourth-generation small business owner, a business owner. So that's like my people. Grew up at a kitchen table with farmers, and, you know, my mom had a retail store, and my other grandparents were bakers. And so when it comes to like the heart and soul and what's so important when you launch your own business and how personal it is, I mean, this was like gut-wrenching. So I show up, the first act, you kick out the, the owner of the company who then freaks out, then all the employees freak out. Act number 2, we announce that somebody's getting fired, and then that's, that's the The bad news— the good news is that I'm not picking. We're going to have you vote somebody out. So it's Survivor in an office place. Oh my goodness. So when, when I learn all this, I have a panic attack, even though I'm on Zoloft. And I call the guy that got me the gig and say, you got to get me out of this. Like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And he said, well, I'm sorry, but they've already cast the entire show and you're out there for 5 weeks and you don't have a choice. They're going to sue you. And I said, then fine, get me some Xanax because I don't think I can get through this thing. Like, this is awful. Luckily, we taped 2 episodes and legal tabled it. But here was the problem. I was attached to the show and I only got paid if the show was shooting. And being an entrepreneur, I also kind of put all my energy into this, shut down the coaching thing. Yeah, uh, really thought that it also kind of negotiated a deal that was a sort of a back-end deal, thinking I'm a, you know, entrepreneur, always thinking about— gotta have a piece of the action. Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that was a dumb move. Um, and I was in a contract for a year while they figured out what to do. So you couldn't do another show?

Yeah.

So, you know, I just felt like I had made a huge mistake, and I felt really embarrassed. And I didn't know at the age of 41 what I should be doing with my life. And while it's neat that I had jumped careers so many times, I started to feel like somebody that actually wasn't successful at all because I didn't have a career track. I had a bunch of jumps from one thing to another. Now, looking back, it makes perfect sense, but standing in the middle of the mess, it just felt like everything was caving in. Probably just like when you were sleeping on your couch, feeling injured and like everything I thought that was about to happen isn't happening now. Meanwhile, my husband had opened up a restaurant business. It had been his dream. He worked in high tech and came home one day after getting laid off and said, I, I'm never going to get on a plane and do a PowerPoint presentation for a company I don't care about or own. And I said, great, what's your plan? And he said, I'm going to open a pizza restaurant. And I looked at him and I said, was there a trust fund that was part of this marriage that I was unaware of? Because I'm not quite sure how we're going to get the money.

Did someone die? You got an insurance policy?

And he said, no. And I then said the most famous lines of our 22-year marriage. Lewis, I looked at him and I said, listen, buddy, inspiration is for strangers. You get your ass back to that job and you pay the mortgage and you forget this dream. You're not going to— well, because change is scary. Yeah. So we fought and he won, and the first one was a real home run. He opened a pizza store. Oh, he did. Yeah. 40 seats right outside of Boston, Massachusetts. He and his best friend, and they won Best of Boston. It was incredible. What do you do when everything— They made money though. They did on the first one. So what do you do when everything's working? Woo, let's go all chips in. Let's put in the home equity line. Let's put in the kids' college savings. Let's get friends and family. And because you're so excited, you think it's gonna work. So you go big, big, big. Well, the second one did not work at all. And it did not work at all, so badly that when it was finally closed, it was close to an $800,000 loss. And it meant our entire home equity line, kids' college savings, everything went right down with it. That was right when I lost the Fox show. So I'm unemployed, the liens start hitting the house, the phone starts ringing all the time and it's collections calls. So you unplug the phone. That would stress me out.

Well, you just unplug the phone.

Oh my gosh. I mean, that's how you deal with that. But I remember, like, there were, I remember two things from that period of my life that were really painful. And one was having to call the town and tell them that we could not afford the $175 for our sixth grader to play soccer. So we needed to pull her out. And I remember there being times, 'cause I was so afraid to look at the checking account, that I would stand at the grocery store and items would scan and I could just feel that wave of anxiety rising, thinking, I don't think the check card's going to go through. And so I would stand there. I always had an excuse and it was to look at the person and go, oh, that's strange. It just worked at the gas station. Oh my gosh. Because what would have been more empowering is to probably say, oh well, I guess I don't have the money for this. Let's take this, this, and this and just kind of like the easiest thing to do is to tell the truth, but I was so filled with shame. Yeah. So I started to develop this habit of hitting the snooze button, because what would happen is the alarm would go off in the morning, and the first thing I would think about is all the problems that we had and how awfully things had gone off the tracks.

You didn't want to deal with them?

No. And I also didn't know— I didn't know I didn't think I could. And this goes back to the feelings. Like, you, you think that you need to feel confident or courageous in order to get started. You don't. You actually just have to start. And that's the riddle of life, that lying in bed hoping that you wake up some morning motivated to change, that's not the answer. You actually have to learn how to push yourself. You have to learn how to how to leverage the power of your decisions, and you've got to learn how to take action when you don't feel like it. Because every morning when I woke up, I did not feel confident. I felt like a loser. I felt like the world's worst parent. I felt like I had failed at every single turn. I did not know if Chris and I could pull out of the spiral. I did not know if we were going to go bankrupt and lose the house and move from our community. I did not know if our marriage would survive. I knew I wanted it to. And see, this is the knowledge-action gap. You can know what you want. You can know what you should be doing, but how do you make yourself do it when the feelings and the motivation isn't there? When all you got is fear? And so every night I would lie in bed and I would say to myself, all right, that's it, Mel. Tomorrow it's the new you. Tomorrow you're going to wake up and be motivated. You're going to get up. You're going to exercise like everybody says you should. You're going to meditate. You're gonna get those kids on the bus. You're gonna screw Fox. You're gonna look for a job. You're gonna cold call Cox Media and you're gonna, you're gonna do auditions. Come on, girl. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. You're gonna take a cold shower. Whoo! You know, here we go. And I meant it when I was saying it. Maybe it was the alcohol that was talking. But, but then I would wake up and I didn't feel any of those things. So I would hit the snooze. And I would hit the snooze. Now, why was I hitting the snooze when I knew it wasn't the right decision? I'm going to tell you why. And this is something that I was blown away by when I discovered it. You don't make decisions with your goals. You don't make decisions with your prefrontal cortex. You don't make decisions with logic. Do you know how we make decisions? I didn't invent this. A neuroscientist by the name of Damasio, who does his research in Brazil, who gave an incredible TED Talk and wrote about this forever and ever and ever. We make decisions with feelings. 95% of our decisions are made by how you feel in the moment. And that is the problem. You need to take control of the moment and leverage the power of your decisions and make them up here. Because when I was lying in bed, I wasn't saying to myself, I should get up because that's going to help me start my day right. I was saying, do I feel like getting up? No, you don't. No. Do you feel like making that cold call? No, you don't. Do you feel like doing that third set of reps? No, you don't. Do you feel like having that hard conversation? No, you don't. Do you feel like ending this relationship, whether it's in business or in your life, that is sucking you dry? No, you don't. We make decisions based on our feelings, and that is robbing you of joy and opportunity. And it is blinding you from the fact that all— how you change your life is one 5-second decision at a time, one push at a time. And if you accept the fact that you may never feel ready and you may never feel motivated and you may never feel confident, you may never feel courageous, and that's okay, but you can still push yourself forward. What happens over time is, as you start to see yourself becoming the person that takes action, that you start to see yourself becoming the kind of person that speaks even though your voice is shaking, you're the kind of person that has a bias toward moving instead of a bias toward thinking, guess what happens? You build the skill of confidence and courage. And so what happened for me is I was stuck, Lewis. I mean, I was so stuck. I was on, I mean, we were heading straight for divorce. We were heading for bankruptcy. I knew I wanted to change things. And so one night I see this commercial. This is the stupidest story on the planet, but this is what happened. I see this commercial. And, you know, again, I also was drinking too much. I mean, I probably had a couple of Manhattans in me. That's my drink. I'm from the Midwest, just like you. All right. Little Manhattan there. Bourbon. And there was a rocket ship launching.

On a commercial?

Yeah. And I had this instinct. This innovation, this disruptive idea, right? Oh my God, Mel, that's the answer. Tomorrow morning, you're gonna launch your ass out of bed like a rocket ship. You're gonna move so fast, you can't even think about your problems. Dumb, right? Totally dumb. Seems like this is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. I cannot believe I have this chick in my podcast.

I understand it. You gotta get moving first. Yes. That's the thing. You just gotta get moving. You're gonna wake up at 6:00 AM or whenever it is and go into the gym. And when you're in the gym, you're gonna start moving the first weight. Yes. And then you'll start moving the second weight.

Yes, actually, people use the 5-second rule at the gym because you know how much time people waste at the gym standing around thinking about the next thing?

Probably 70% of the time.

5, 4, 3, 2, 1. So the next morning the alarm goes off and nothing had changed in my life. I woke up to the lien on the house, the fighting with Chris, the unemployment, the lack of confidence, the lack of courage, the, like the whole thing. But I did something I had never done before. I went 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, just like NASA. I actually counted. And then I stood up and I was like, what the hell just happened? What? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The next morning I used it again. It worked. The next morning I used it again. It worked. And then I started to notice something. And this is, this is one of those things. So we have a, we have an 11-year-old son who has dyslexia. And when they finally diagnosed him, it was as if, of course, it was as if like, how could we have possibly missed this? Are we the worst parents in the world? I mean, the kid can barely write, he can't cut his food, he doesn't read, like no wonder he doesn't do team sports. It was right under our nose. And what I'm about to tell you is right under everybody's nose. There's a 5-second window between the instincts, the shoulds, the urges, the inner wisdom, the things that can change your life if you listen to it. Got a 5-second window from the moment you feel that instinct to move, and if you don't, your brain is actually designed to kill it. 5 seconds is all you have. The second you hesitate, it's action. You feel yourself hesitating, that is a moment of huge power, because what's happened is you've just started to pull back from something that you need to lean into. And if you count backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and this is the neuroscience behind why this stupid little trick works, counting is an action. Counting backwards requires focus. It's also not a habit for you yet. So when you feel yourself hesitate, you're triggering your mind that something's up. Like Lewis didn't hesitate when he pulled on his pants. He didn't hesitate when he's drinking his coffee. He didn't hesitate when he walked out the door to the gym. But now he's hesitating to make that call. Your mind now goes into a cognitive bias called the spotlight effect. It magnifies whatever it was that you hesitated doing. The moment. The moment, yeah. Like all of a sudden you're like, eh, I don't feel like it. Like, I don't know, maybe I'll do it later. And your mind is doing it because your mind's trying to protect you. Hesitation signals a red flag to your mind that something's up. Just that small hesitation. It's a habit that we all have. Should you hesitate if you're getting a tattoo? Yes. Should you hesitate if you're gambling? Yes. Should you hesitate if you are signing a legal document? Yes. You need your prefrontal cortex for those things. You need to interrupt it, make a power, make a decision. Should you hesitate on making a phone call? No. Should you hesitate on speaking up in a meeting? No. Should you hesitate when you feel yourself starting to procrastinate and you know you got work that you should get done? No, you shouldn't hesitate at all. Should you hesitate in saying the thing that you really feel in your heart? No, you shouldn't. Should you hesitate and edit yourself when you're talking? No, you shouldn't. But we've all trained ourselves to. So it's actually this habit of hesitating. You start catching yourself. It's a huge moment of power because you have a decision to make and you got to make it in the next 5 seconds. Are you going to go on autopilot and get trapped in your mind, or are you going to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and awaken your prefrontal cortex and drive forward? So I started to use this rule As I noticed that every day, all day long, I had these moments of inner wisdom where I would know that I needed to pick up the phone and stop isolating myself. I would know that I needed to call a bunch of media companies and start auditioning for radio show hosting gigs. I knew that I should get out of bed on time. I knew I should stop myself before I snapped at Chris, right? Self-monitor. I knew I should not let the frustration be the things that was driving me. And so I started to use the rule all day long. Whenever I felt this, I should do this, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and I would make myself do it. And slowly, 5 seconds at a time, my entire life started to change. And my husband used it in his business, and he and his business partner dove in. They went on to open 7 more restaurants. I went on to launch and sell 2 businesses and get recruited by CNN and join their team. I had a syndicated radio show that that ended up winning the Gracie Award, which is kind of the female media, you know, awards for the number one talk show in the country. And, you know, I never intended to tell anybody about the 5 Second Rule. First of all, because it's stupid, right? I mean, come on, count backwards. That's the dumbest—

that's stupid to me, though. Anything that works works for me. That's true. I mean, I'll take any stupid thing.

That's true. And so I— but I also was like, how do you start talking about something like that, right? Yeah. So I was asked to give a TED Talk like 6 years ago, and TED 6 years ago, not the brand that it was today. They weren't even putting the talks online yet. Really? Yeah, the TEDx talks were not online yet. And so that was the first speech I'd ever given in my life. If you want to see what somebody looks like having a panic attack for 21 minutes straight, watch that speech. I was backstage and it was like one PhD after another going out there. I'm like, what the hell have I gotten myself into? To this. That's not my thing. And so at the very end, I wasn't even planning on talking about it. I say, oh, by the way, there's this thing I do. That's it. I don't even explain it. And you know why I didn't explain it, Lewis? I didn't know why it worked. Mm-hmm.

So you didn't have the science, the research?

You're just like— Zero. Zero. And then something crazy happened. They put that talk online a year later, and people started to write. We've heard from more than 100,000 people in 90 countries. That have written to us that are using the rule in ways big and small to change their lives, to change their marriages, to change their thinking patterns, to grow their businesses. We know of 11 people that have stopped themselves from killing themselves. Wow. In the moment, there's a gentleman that we talk about in the book, and you can see his social media posts in London. He was a veteran, and he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and he boarded a ferry with the intention of jumping overboard. And he got to the railing and he was standing there and his inner wisdom kicked in. And this is another thing I want everybody watching to understand. I don't care what you're facing or how low you get, your inner wisdom is always there. It is. And the thing is, is that we often don't listen to it. And so he's standing there intending to kill himself, and that inner wisdom kicks in and he remembers the 5-second rule. And he goes 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and he turns and physically moves away from the railing and finds the first person working on the ferry and tells him that he's suicidal. Mm-hmm. Saved his life. Wow. He saved his life because he listened to the inner wisdom. And this is the other thing I love about this rule: it's not something to think about, it's a tool to use. So the part of the problem with a lot of the advice that I've found, for me personally, is that a lot of advice is is all about kind of doing mental battle. And if I go upstairs, I'm behind enemy lines and I tend to get hijacked. So I love this tool because 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 interrupts those patterns. It actually prompts the part of the brain that I need in order to change. And it makes changing easier because I've now got my mind working for me instead of against me. And it gets me out of my head. And so, I'm super excited to share this rule with people because I now know not only that it's working, just not for me, it's working for people around the world. And you know, in the book, it took me 3 years to write it. It's all the science behind the rule. It's got more than 150 social media posts in it. So you see stories from around the world of people using it to, end procrastination, to build confidence, to deepen their relationships, to launch businesses, to explode the sales. Why does it help with sales? I'll tell you why. Because you can't sell by thinking. Selling is about action. We have groups from companies around the world, sales teams that put 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 up on the wall. I'm sure they hate me. That's cool. Yes, because what? Cold calling. It's a momentum thing. If you stop and think, the phone is not getting, the dialing is not happening when you're thinking.

If you're thinking about all those nos you've been getting. Yes. You're not going to want to do it again because it doesn't feel good.

Yes. And if you're in the middle of a negotiation or you're in the middle of a really difficult conversation, and again, remember what we said earlier, you cannot control your feelings that rise up, but you can always control how you think and what you do. So if you're in the middle of a difficult conversation and you feel those feelings come up that normally trigger you to start editing yourself, or to censor yourself, or to silence yourself, or to think sabotaging thoughts in like a business negotiation, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, awaken the prefrontal cortex, get back in the game.

How has this rule helped you the most? In what area of your life? With your marriage, your business, in being more productive, in not having to, you know, take drugs when you're worried so much, right? What's— what's— or on stage? What's the area where you're like, wow, this really had the biggest impact? And I'm sure all of it, but—

Well, the most important thing in my life is my marriage. So my relationship with Chris is like the thing that brings me the greatest joy. I mean, I'll just start crying thinking about it. And how many years have you been married? 20 years. We've been together for 22 years. 3 kids: 17, 16, 11. It has given me mastery over myself. Like, I get so choked up just thinking about this. Like, I used to feel out of control, and this rule allows me to be the best version of me and to interrupt, like, all the garbage that can trigger you, um, to behave in a way that's inconsistent with your values and your dreams. And so That has been the single greatest gift. That's great. That, and also, you know, I think the other thing that's super cool is that it is a tool that certainly prompts you to act, but it is also a tool that helps you tune in to your inner wisdom. Like, you're not only going to start waking up, you'll be so in tune with those signals that come from your instincts— not emotional, not instinctual, like instinctual. That you get a direct line to your inner voice. You get a direct line. You know, all these people, one of the things that's always struck me is, so if you list all the people that you admire, right? Yeah, Richard Branson, Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates, like everybody's got kind of this, yeah, well, whatever. Lewis Howes for sure. If you list all those people, Jay-Z, Beyoncé, like everybody. Yeah, everybody that you admire is doing the exact same thing. They actually listen to their inner wisdom. They have figured out how to tune out the critic up here and trust the instincts. And, you know, I have this saying about confidence that I've only recently kind of stumbled into as I've been digging into more research around the science of confidence and the skill of confidence, because a lot of people think that confidence is a personality trait. It's not. It's actually a skill that you build through action. And a lot of people think confidence is a state of belief. It can be, but that's not where it begins. And so I say that confidence is the willingness to try. That's all that it is, knowing that you may succeed or survive, but you'll still try. And to me, all those people that we admire most That's what they're doing. They have the ability to tune into those instincts that are true for them because the fact is there's only one you. That's it. And you matter because there's only one you and there's only ever going to be one you. And your instincts and your experiences and your inner wisdom is a gift to the world. And every time that you tune it out because of the habit of hesitating or the habit of self-doubt or the habit of worrying or the habit of overthinking, thinking, you are robbing the world of that gift that you have to give to everybody. And you can use this simple, stupid, silly tool to train yourself to not only hear it, but also to develop the skill of courage to act on it.

Powerful. And is there any area of your life where you feel like you lack courage still?

You know, I'll admit it's kind of easy. I think we all kind of go through those, those moments where you feel like you're behind. And I think social media is both an incredible tool, and it can also be one of those triggers that makes you feel like, look at how many followers this guy has. I'm like, I'm like so tiny compared to this guy right here. Like, it's easy to use technology and social media not for inspiration, but actually as a way to bash yourself that you're not doing what other people are doing. Yes. And so I think that I use the rule a lot for patience. I noticed that my insecurity rises up because right now, you know, look, I did a ridiculous number of speeches last year. I travel way too much. I don't want my life to look like that. It's a champagne problem. I get it. Yeah. But I also have 3 kids and a marriage that I love, and I really feel depleted when I'm not with them. And so I'm practicing patience as I make an intentional pivot in the kind of business that I'm running so that I have more of a life that I want as well. So that's one area. You know, I don't feel insecure as much as, you know, you know the term deliberate practice, right? And you know the 5-hour rule where— Is that from The Talent Code? Well, the deliberate practice is actually a psychological principle.

I think it was in a book called The Talent Code, but yeah.

Oh yeah? Okay. You know, and you know, the 10,000 hours—

I mean, deliberate practice. Yes.

So, so deliberate practice is this idea that, yeah, you could do 10,000 hours at anything and become an expert at it, but the way to do it faster is to deliberate, to do deliberate practice, which means you're practicing with the intention of improving, and there's a feedback loop. Yeah.

So just 2,000 hours as opposed to 10,000. Correct.

Like, for example, if you want to become an expert at guitar, learn scales. Don't just sit there for 10,000 hours and play the same song. If you learn scales, you get the finger dexterity and the muscle memory and the neural pathway development. By the way, yes, I saw your guitar over there. I saw your guitar. You know, I always wanted to play guitar, but instead I forced my 3 children to learn. That's good.

You can just enjoy it and just watch them. Exactly. My brother's, uh, you know, the number 1 jazz violinist in the world. What? Yeah. And so I grew up watching the most incredible— like, now, is he built like you too?

He used to be even like more jacked.

They used to call him the Incredible Hulk of violin because he was just like, wow, snapped the thing in half. He would, he would like slam it like Jimi Hendrix style. Yeah. But now he's leaned up a bunch actually. And so he's, yeah, he's incredible. So I used to just be awestruck by his gifts and it was unbelievable, his skill. And so I learned guitar. I taught myself when I was 18 just 'cause I was like, I have to know something, you know, in terms of music. That's pretty cool. I can barely, you know, I'm like a hack, but you know, at least I could do something.

Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm, I'm kind of in this mode of, of improving myself and I'll give you one more thing that I'm working on. Yeah. So I kind of think about my life in, or my work in 3 buckets. So we got this bucket here. Yeah. We got this bucket. And we got this bucket. And so when you think about your business, or you think about your passion, or you think about work, I think about, okay, what do I need to do in terms of how much time and what actions do I need to take in order to develop the skills so that I can perform the work? So there's the deliberate practice that goes into practicing your skill and your mastery and your competency. Yep, mastery. So that when it comes time to actually deliver the work, whether that's selling or standing on a stage or writing a book or talking to people or selling real estate or whatever it is that, that it may, that may be your passion, deliver.

So I don't think it would be valuable for me to tell you that in order to overcome procrastination, all you need to do is take action. That's something you already know. I want you to go deeper than that and to give you the tools to make taking action so much easier for you. So that's the approach I want to take for this episode.