Divorce Attorney REVEALS Why 70% of Relationships DON'T LAST | Faith Jenkins

Why is this spike coming out of you? Why do you want to cause this person pain right now? Just because you're walking away from a relationship. Sometimes you have to walk away. One of the toughest things about life you have to learn is sometimes you're gonna walk away from people that you love. You're gonna do it to protect.

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes. I'm curious, what has witnessing so many divorces, taught you about love, relationships, and marriage?

Well, I would say, first of all, I waited until the right time.

The right time.

For me to get married. For other people, they may have perhaps thought it was a long time. Mm-. They may have perhaps thought it was too long. Because I would get a lot of those questions about, why aren't you married?

Mm-.

In my 20s.

In my 30s.

When I got married, I was 42 years old. Mm-. So, he was recently married two years ago. So, I had to deal with that, but I always said, you know what? When it's the right time, if it's something that I really want, the timing will be perfect. Everything comes to me in the right time, space, and sequence.

Absolutely.

So, what has witnessing divorce taught me? Well, my parents got divorced when I was 13 years old, and I saw the early early stages of their love growing up as a child, and I saw their decision to go their separate ways. So that was my first insight into what divorce was like, and it was difficult and it was painful. And as a child, when you love your parents, you want to see things work out. But I also knew at that age that it was the right thing for them to do at the time.

Yeah.

And now when I have these cases before me and people are going their separate ways and growing apart, I pull from that experience even as a child. I pull from my experience working in family court in New York very early on in my career and then working on TV and seeing the cases and, you know, we've seen some crazy ones and try to give the best advice that I can, which is it's easy easy to treat people right when you like them and when things are going great. But you really want to know the true character of a person. The true measure of a person is how you treat them when things aren't going well.

Amen.

When things are going bad. That's the true measure.

I always say you learn a lot about someone after you go through a breakup. That's who they really are, how they treat you or how they talk about you in a good way, a negative way. You learn a lot about the character of someone. based on a breakup.

Yep. If I were to give you an orange right now and you were to squeeze that orange, what would come out of it?

Juice.

Orange juice. So, and no matter what circumstances, I could put that orange out in the sun and give it to you. I could put it out in the cold and give it to you and you could squeeze it repeatedly, only one thing would come out of it. There'll be orange juice. So, even when you're going through difficult circumstances in the adversity of life, you're going through stress, Someone makes you angry if anger comes out of you, if bitterness comes out of you, if resentment comes out of you, that's what's inside of you. I use this analogy of an orange and I say, why are these things, why is this hatred coming out of you? Why is this spike coming out of you? Why do you want to cause this person pain right now just because you're walking away from a relationship? Sometimes you have to walk away. One of the toughest things about life you have to learn is sometimes you you're gonna walk away from people that you love. You're gonna do it to protect your peace.

Absolutely.

You-'Re gonna do it to protect the peace of your environment, protect your home, whatever those reasons are. Sometimes it happens. It doesn't mean that you have to.

Try to destroy the other person in the process. Absolutely. Why do you think people try to destroy or cause so much pain on their ex partners when they go through a breakup or divorce? Is it because they feel pain and so they want the other person to feel it? Have you seen cases of people that don't do that, that actually are like, you know what, I'm sad, I'm hurt, this is not fun. this is, you know, maybe horrible to lose this relationship and go through this experience, but I'm gonna leave this in a loving way.

Yes, yes I have, I've seen both sides of it.

What's the difference between those two types of people, the loving ending and the anger ending? How do they develop that inside of them under all the stress and pain?

It's an emotional maturity that you have to have. And some people have it, they've developed it over time. I will tell you, when I started going through breakups at 21 and 22 years old. I did some crazy things. You did? You know, I remember, I talked about this in the book. I went to my boyfriend's apartment in Manhattan and I became CSI in that moment.

Really?

I was investigating because I knew something was up.

Checking drawers and under beds and looking in the trash and looking for everything.

I was an attorney and I was watching a law and order to know how these things work.

Is there a hair somewhere? Is there something?

So, You know, I had some moments that I wasn't proud of. I wasn't mature.

You got the black light, you're looking on the sheet.

Have my own lab set up in the back, I'm gonna. But, when did you feel like, how.

Many relationships did you have from your 20s, from 20 until you got married, let's say? How many relationships? How many long-term relationships? Not just like dating for a few weeks or a month, but a committed longer-term relationship?

I mean, just off the cuff right now, I would say I was probably in 10, at least.

10. In like 20, Two years, is that 20 years?

Probably 15, 20 years, I would say at least 10.

Yeah, okay. When did you get to a point in your emotional maturity where you went through a breakup and you realized, oh, I don't need to do what I did when I was 21.

When I realized that pain in life is inevitable. You're going to go through painful experiences, but suffering is optional. And I was causing myself all of this additional stress and suffering over the end of a relationship. And I started asking myself, well, if you really believe that the best is yet to come in life when a relationship ends, why would you be that upset about it?

You should be happy.

Why would you be, you would have some level of peace. I wasn't at the point where, you know, that takes a lot of enlightenment to be just happy when a relationship ends and most people aren't there. But you can at least be at a point in your life where you can project and say, okay, I can separate my feelings from the facts. My feelings are hurt and it's okay for me to feel this hurt. I'm human. But the fact is this is happening for a reason and I'm going to get out in front of this now and I'm going to embrace the reason. Even if I don't see it now, I know that eventually eventually I will learn that there's a reason that this is happening in my life and you accept it. Radical acceptance. That's when we talk about the emotional maturity, when you can radically accept that this ending is happening for a reason and believe even if you don't see it that something better is coming along the way. And when you believe that and when you accept that, then you won't feel like you need to go and look through your boyfriend's apartment because you want to find out the missing clue in what's really going on for sure. You can let it go in peace, in knowing, I don't need to know the why all the time. I don't need to know the why. This is happening and I can radically accept that this is happening.

Wow. Was there a point when you started to learn and see red flags clearer and realize, okay, like, this isn't going to work. So I'm going to remove myself from the situation as opposed to maybe in your twenties where you're like, well, I'm going to have one eye open and just like keep working to make it work. Even though these red flags are happening, was there a moment where this kind of like, all right, I see the red flags so clear now and I'm not going to keep investing time and energy. So hopefully it changes when I got.

To know myself better because I got to know when I got to know me better, I got to know what I wanted. Yeah, what I didn't want. and what I was willing to compromise on and what I wasn't willing to compromise on. Because before, I didn't know the flags were red.

What were they?

I just thought, this is life. So I'm seeing these things happen or the flag will be red, but I would want to know, well, how red is the red flag?

Yeah, can I manage the red flag?

Can I manage it? Can I deal with it? But as I got older and more mature and I started having these relationships, I started realizing, and that's what, that's why it's so important to get to know yourself in your 20s. I say that's the, you know, when you're in your 20s, what a great time to get to know you and who you are and what you want and what you like and what you dislike. Because then when you can see with clearer eyes, you have a better vision for yourself and what you're like in your life and what will better fit you in your life. So just growing and going through those experiences, I started accepting and realizing the things that would and would not work for me. And when I came across people who, when I realized, okay, this is not something that I want, just being able to pivot. And say, you know what? That's not what I want. I need to go in another direction. Right.

It's interesting because I was watching a TED Talk recently of a relationship therapist. I think he was a marriage therapist out of Australia. And he was mentioning, you know, the statistics, 50% of marriages end in divorce. And if you want to decrease that statistic, wait longer to get married. He was like, wait as long as you can to get married, because the older you get, the more you know yourself, you don't settle, right? You don't settle for something. You don't just jump in something because of the pressure. You really make a more conscious decision. I'm not saying if you're young, you can't get married and have a great relationship. and thrive in the long term, but divorce rates go down significantly if you wait until you're older to get married. So you waited till you're 42. I'll be 39 in a couple months. I haven't been married. And I reflect back in this conversation thinking, if I would have gotten married to any of the previous relationships, I would have 100% been divorced. There's no way they would have worked. No way. And yet sometimes we feel the pressure that like, okay, well, I don't like this, this, and this, or it's not exactly what I want, but I'm gonna move forward anyways because I've invested time or energy or because I like their family or whatever it is. What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned in all these different relationships about yourself?

I don't think that age is the end all be all yardstick for success. In marriage, I really do think it's a number of things including knowing yourself and just growing and becoming a better version of yourself and bring a healthy version of yourself into a relationship because we don't attract healthy relationships, we create them by being healthy and then hopefully attracting someone else who's also working on themselves and bringing their best version of themselves to the relationship. For me, I learned who I was as a person and then also what I wanted, some of the core values that I wanted in my partner.

Did you think about values before then?

I did, but, you know, I think that my values changed over time as I, as I live life. You're going to come across a lot of people you find physically attractive, but that factor may be the initial attraction factor that gets you to talk to somebody or have an initial conversation with them. But really everything after that, as you dig deeper into who a person is, those are the things that will speak to a relationship's success and longevity. If you want to do something well and you want to be great at something, you're going to prepare for it. Your relationships should be no different. So while I was single, I had to ask myself, what am I doing to prepare myself if I want to be in a relationship? Because how I live my life as a single person is going to reflect when I do get into a relationship. So do I know how to communicate effectively? Because if I don't, it's going to show up in my relationships. Do I know how to manage conflict well? Because if I don't, it's going to show up in my relationships. Do I know how to set boundaries? If I don't, I may choose somebody who I may become codependent on. It's going to reflect in who I choose to associate myself with. So, I started preparing myself for being in the type of relationship that I really wanted to be in, becoming the right person, because hopefully I would have a be able to make better choices. because then I know who would be a great match for the person that I'm becoming.

What was the biggest challenge you had to overcome? Was it conflict resolution? Was it boundaries? Was it not abandoning yourself? Was it communication skills? What was the fear? Fear of what?

Fear of failure.

Like a relationship not working.

Relationship not working. When you have been through, as you date and you go through relationships, and you've been through betrayal and heartbreak and hurt and pain, you can become pretty cynical about love. And if you're not careful, that cynicism can really be a hindrance for you because you cannot be a cynic about love and expect to attract it at the same time.

Ooh, snap. That's true. Yeah. So how did you keep your heart open after going through breakups and maybe after, you know, challenging things happening in relationships where that hurt you? How did you stay open to love?

I had to reframe my thoughts and ideas and my perspective about the past.

What did you think about them then?

I had to learn to allow the past to stay in the past. I didn't want someone to come into my life and I make them pay for something they had nothing to do with.

Yeah, that's tough.

In my past.

Yeah, that's tough.

And when I got married, who did I want my husband to meet? This bitter, broken down woman who had been through the ringer in all these years and all these relationships? Or did I want him to meet someone who, because we're all, we're always in the process of healing. We're always in the process of growth and our emotional health, but did I want him to meet someone who was committed to that growth and that process and going forward being committed to the same commitment, which is what really success in marriage boils down to, being committed to the same commitment. Because when I was younger, I thought it was about this involuntary feeling. of love. And then as I got older, I realized it was a conscious decision to love.

It's not just, oh, I have this attraction to this person. I feel love towards them. It's a conscious decision.

Because you're not always going to feel love. You're going to go through ups and downs and peaks and valleys. And if it were about a feeling, you'd be all over the place emotionally. But yeah, it's about a decision. And so when I talk about earlier, when I talked about separating your feelings from the facts, that's what I mean. Like you're, you're gonna have a range of emotions. But the fact is, you know, this is a person that I've committed my life to. Yeah, this is a person I've committed to grow with. This is, so I made all of these commitments to this person. And then you go forward with that in mind.

Did you have fears around getting married?

I had a fear of the unknown. Yeah. What is marriage really like? You know, I see other people who are married, some of them happy, some of them not. Obviously, I see a lot of people getting divorced. so what is it about marriage? What makes it work? Do I know what makes it work? Do I have what it takes to make it work? So it was. It was the fear of the unknown because I hadn't done it before. Marriage by Nature changes you. It's the closest relationship you'll ever have. It's very different from the parent-child relationship. Every other relationship.

Friends, everything.

Yeah. I wondered how it would change me.

From being in a relationship and dating to then being married, what have been the biggest differences and changes?

Allowing someone to see me at my most vulnerable state.

Ooh. Did you allow that during the dating process?

I allowed it to a certain extent, but I didn't live with my husband before we got married. That was a choice that we made.

Really?

We did not want to live together. And so when we got married and we moved in together, I had not lived with anyone since I was in college for 20 years.

Wow.

So again, it's that adjustment in life, just sharing my space with another human being every day.

You got married.

And how to handle that.

Yeah, and you got married a week before the pandemic, 2020.

Yes.

March 8th, 2020. You said. So what was that, I mean, that takes a lot of guts to not live with someone beforehand in the modern world to not fully see the person who they are. so I commend you on that. So what did you learn going through a pandemic for the last two years, getting married a week before, and then moving in together and sharing a life during arguably one of the scariest uncertain times in the last 20, 30 years?

Everything changed in the blink of an eye. We got married on March 8th in Los Angeles, big wedding, all of our family, all of our friends, hugging, high-fiving, kissing, had no idea what was about to happen a week later. And I do look back on that day because I thought, you know, when we were talking about our wedding, do we wanna do something small? Do we wanna-- and, you know, we ended up just inviting our people and everyone came out. And now I look back on that day and I cherish it so much.

Yeah, 'cause people haven't been able to do that for a couple years. Right.

And I haven't seen a lot of those people since. So it just made those memories even more special to us. But also, yes, a week later, the world shut down. So we decided to take a mini-moon. We were gonna do a big honeymoon over the summer. So we just went to Newport Beach, and we were there for a few days, and we were in a bubble. We didn't know a lot about everything that was happening in the world until we came out of this bubble. So we came back to LA, And I mean, there was no toilet tissue on the shelves. The grocery store, I mean, it was just empty. Everything was empty. I'd never seen anything like it before. And I was like, oh, so you mean to tell me I waited all this time to get married and the world is about to end?

Wow.

It was crazy.

So what did you guys create? Did you guys come together and say, let's build a strong foundation during this time?

Yes.

Did you feel like it's made the relationship stronger? Has it been stressful living with someone for the first time in 20 years? How have you navigated it all?

We adapted really well and during that time we had every day and all that time to spend time together. And the pandemic, you know, it challenged all of us in different ways, but it also presented us with an opportunity. And for us, it was noise cancellation headphones. through the first few months of our marriage because we got to really sit and be together and be still and be quiet. You know, my husband is an R&B singer. He travels all over the world and he had, he was leaving a week after we got married to start traveling again. Not at all. Of course, that didn't happen. And so we got to spend a lot of quality time together. And I will tell you what I learned about him.

Yes.

What I talked about earlier, about when you see the true measure of a person and how they handle adversity and how they handle difficult circumstances. And because all of his, you know, live music was impacted greatly.

That's how you make most of your money. Yeah.

And I never heard him complain, not even once. And I saw him be a source of encouragement to a lot of other of his artists and musician friends. And, I mean, I was even shocked. I was like, okay, we're, we're all about positivity and, and, you know, wake up happy every day, but really? You really wake up this happy every day.

Sure.

And it was inspiring to see. And I knew in those first few months that because you always, you know, love is about taking a risk.

Yeah.

You know, we talk about that fear because we're, it's a risk. There's a fear of being hurt again. There's a fear of those triggers being exposed again. And in that moment, I knew and I believed that I had made a right decision, but in those months after the pandemic, I saw it for myself very early on in my marriage, who my husband was, in stressful times, in difficult circumstances, and how he was a source of inspiration and strength for a lot of people, including me.

So, was each day kind of a confirmation that this was a great decision? Yes. I leaned into this.

Yes.

That's beautiful.

Yes. It's been two years of just this amazing time in my life because I used to get asked a lot why I was still single for so long. And I started to feel pressure from people. I never put the pressure on myself, and I know a lot of people perhaps do, but if you're not careful when you're single and people are asking you, well, I don't understand why aren't you married or what's going on, You can start to internalize it and feel that there's something wrong with you or that there's something off within you and it can almost be something that you become embarrassed by because people are asking you as if you've missed some mark in your life, some milestone that you should have achieved by now. Not asking me if it was a desire of mine, by the way, if I wanted to, but just asking me why wasn't I?

And why do you think people care so much about other people being in a relationship or being single?

Well, the question I think speaks more to who they are than it ever did to who I was because I was okay. You know, there were lessons that I had to learn to get to the place where I could go into a successful marriage. I needed to learn those lessons. There are almost 8 billion people on this planet. We can't all be doing the same things at the same time and we're not supposed to be. We're all supposed to be living our individual life paths in our individual life journeys. There are some people who don't think that. They think you need to be married by a certain age, you need to have children by a certain age or you're not living the right path. It's just not true. It's not a race. Why is it not a race? Because we're not all running in the same direction. So I learned very early on and I think living in New York, actually helped with that because I was around so many other young professionals who were at the top of their games and their careers. And we were, you know, Saturday night, we're here Wednesday night, we're at a show and the live music and everything and just embracing our full lives and accepting that being single was not a rest stop for me until I met my husband and really got to live. Well, if I had done that, I wouldn't have lived until I was 42 years old. so what would I have done with all those years in my 20s and 30s? So it wasn't a rest stop. And I embraced that, that time of. And just did so many. I traveled across all around the world by myself, Solo, went to all the restaurants that I wanted to go to, watching Sex in the City. Sometimes I would go by myself. You know, I had this vibrant group of friends. I was not waiting to live my life. And I, I think that people they project their own view of what they think life should be onto you. And so it's our job as individuals to again, reframe our perspective and mindset and make a decision for ourselves that we're going to live our own life path and embrace that life path.

Absolutely.

And be happy in that life path.

What about the, you know, a lot of people talk about the big red flags, like, okay, he's he or she is cheating, lying, out of integrity, whatever, in another relationship on the side. There's these big red flags. What about the subtle red flags that you maybe you saw over time, but you didn't take action on and you realized, oh, that was actually a much bigger flag than, but it was subtle. I let it kind of slip. What are those subtle red flags that people should be looking out for?

If you tell me you're a vegan.

And you eat meat.

And I see you on Snapchat eating some wings. You may think that's a small lie. Interesting. But what does it say about that person? It's saying that for some reason they feel that they need to, they can't be their true selves with you.

Interesting.

They're trying to project someone who they think may impress you and it's not really who they are. So when you see those subtle things that you don't understand, well, why didn't this person just be true and honest with me about this? This was a small thing. How do you think they're gonna handle the big things? So I actually look at those little things. What kind of digital footprint are people leaving online? Yeah. On their social media? What do they think is funny? I remember once someone wanted to set me up on a blind date with an actor here in LA and I looked at him, I'm sure he had no shortage of women, opportunities to date him. And he'd reached out to a person who he knew was a mutual friend and said, I'd like to meet Faith, would you set me up with her? Well, I went and looked on his social media. And he had a joke that he put on his social media that I thought was really crude and that I didn't think was funny, but he thought it was funny. But in that moment, I said, I'm not going to go out on a date with him. Some people may think, wow, you didn't even give him a chance. You didn't even, again, I know myself now. I know myself and I know that when I date somebody, even what they put out publicly on their social media, that's a reflection of me. That's a reflection of our relationship. That's a reflection of all those things. You may think that joke was small, but to me it represented a bigger picture of what I thought would be incompatibility.

How important is compatibility versus connection and chemistry? Of the three, connection, chemistry and compatibility, which one is most? important in your mind.

You need all three. When I think about compatibility, I think about not just making a decision about where you are now in your life. Because over time, when you get into a relationship, as time goes on, people are going to change. When you lose a job or you get a new job, you have children, you don't have children, You go through certain stressful situations with your family, your health, all of these things in life, they continue to change us and shape us into who we are. So when I think about compatibility, I think about a person who is committed to a certain level of growth. You are not just going together in the future, you are growing together.

Ooh, yes.

So that love has to be about being committed to the same commitment and a certain level of growth.

When someone wants to continue growing and developing themselves and the other person doesn't want to, what happens in a relationship or a marriage when they're different there?

It's easy to fall in love, I think. I think it takes work to stay there. And so one example, I had a couple come into divorce court And the wife said, you know, initially our marriage was great, like most marriages, but over time he started saying things to me that would really hurt my feelings. I gained weight. I gained 15, 20 pounds over the last couple of years, and he would comment on my weight. And we were initially committed to just building each other up. And even when we had criticism to share with each other, We were always constructive and we always thought, how can I say this in the most loving way? And so she said she continued to grow in that area, but he didn't. And I turned to him and I said, so what happened? He said, well, I'm just speaking the truth. I said, would you ever say to a stranger the things that you're saying to your wife? This is supposed to be your best friend. He worked in a restaurant. I said, would you ever say those things to a patron in your restaurant? The things that you're saying to your wife? He said, I don't believe in divorce. We're Christians. We don't get divorced. I say, Really? What does God say about love? You're Christian. What does God say about love? Love is kind. Love is patient. Love doesn't envy. Love certainly doesn't try to tear the other person down. So the commitment to that growth, it really shows up in the long term in the longevity of the relationship.

Absolutely.

And if someone's not committed, again, you have to protect your peace. I would never advise staying in a relationship where you are being emotionally abused and disrespected. Because I'm going to tell you what happens. It breaks my heart to see people come in and they've been in these relationships for so long where they have been repeatedly dishonored. You know why? Because over time, when people have been repeatedly disrespected and dishonored, it becomes normal to them. It becomes part familiar. And they in turn start to think they've been dishonored so much that they are not indeed worthy of honor because they've been dishonored repeatedly. Pain will subside. in time after you leave if you do the work, but it will always be there if you stay in that type of situation.

What would you say are the main causes of divorce then? Is it cheating? Is it disrespect? Is it a lack of growth? Is it foul play, emotional abuse? What are the main causes you see?

People not being committed to the same commitment. And that is the growth, the love, the respect. Finding out how your partner wants to be loved because everybody wants to be loved in a different way and it may change over time. So you're constantly evolving and a part of your job as a good partner is to find out how does this person want to be loved? If you stop doing all of those things, it's like if you're if you maintain and you take care of your yard, what are the things you do to take care of your yard? You have to mow the lawn, fertilize, take care of the grass, fertilize it, pull out the weeds, all of those things. to keep the yard looking great, to keep it growing. There are going to be seasons. There are going to be seasons. It may be dry one season, it may be a rainy season. You're going to go through the storms. But just like in life, the seasons are going to change. But what are you doing to maintain throughout all of those things? Being committed to doing the work to maintain the relationship throughout the seasons is what speaks to success. and I see the opposite end of that. Because at no point can you just think that being on autopilot is what's going to keep you moving forward.

Right. There's a book obviously called, I think it's the Five Love Languages.

Yes, I love that book.

And I think it's such a powerful place to even just have a conversation with a partner in when you're dating and to take the love language test to see, do I like giving love in the way this person likes receiving love? I did this test with my girlfriend and I did it the same same time. I wish I would have done this in previous relationships. This isn't the end all be all. This isn't like if you have this in a perfect alignment, your relationship's gonna work out. But I think it's a great indicator of minimizing stress when you learn these things. And I realized that we have the exact same order of how we like to receive love based on the test we took. So we both like receiving love the same way, which means we both like giving love in the same way. whereas in previous relationships, I didn't ask them, how do you really like to receive love? And they didn't ask me. We both didn't really do the test and go through that process. And over time, I remember feeling like, oh, they really like when I do certain things that I'm not comfortable doing, or it's not my natural go-to. It's more of a strain and it's harder for me to think of and remember to do certain things. and vice versa. They didn't like doing certain things that I like to be, I like being touched and told nice things and they wanted to keep their hands to themselves. They didn't want whatever it was. And I was like, man, just like if people couldn't get in alignment on that, at least in a couple areas, I think it would make it much smoother in the process. And there's a lot of different things out there that people can do about that. But how important is that, do you think, figuring out the love language of your partner before you get married.

It's a part of the service.

Yeah.

That comes with being in a relationship and being in a marriage. Big part of marriage is service. Yes. And sacrifice. And a part of the service is how am I going to serve my partner? I remember when my husband and I went through our pre-marital counseling and we did pre-engagement counseling even.

So before you got engaged, you did counseling to see is it worth getting engaged? And then when you're engaged, you got counseling to see, like, let's see.

Absolutely.

See, that's how serious I was about it. I remember before my current girlfriend, I remember thinking to myself, gosh, I would love to get into a relationship and start therapy. Like when everything's good. And see, are we in alignment and like diffuse some of the things that could be challenges in the future. And we've been doing that in our own way. Like she's got her own therapist, I've got mine, and we're starting to do stuff together. and it's uncomfortable to have certain conversations, but it's so freeing at the same time. So anyways, you did this because you were so serious about it. And what did you learn about doing counseling pre-engagement, engagement before marriage as well?

Well, I thought if I get engaged and then I go to premarital counseling, I've already made the decision to get married.

Yes.

So I wanted to know, because remember, you're talking about, I talked about the fear of the unknown. So I wanted to minimize the unknown. Yes. So I thought, I have all these questions and I think I'm asking the right questions, but I want to know, is there something that I'm not asking? Is there another area that we need to explore? Is there something else we need to talk about before we got engaged? Because we were talking about at that point, Getting married. You know, so often when people get engaged and they announce it and they share with the world and the invitations are going out and then, oh wait, wait, we need to do our premarital counseling and you may find out something that you don't like and are you gonna- oh, whoopsie, it's too late.

What are you gonna do?

A lot of people feel the pressure.

I've heard so many stories of people who got divorced. I'm sure you've heard this too, where the woman or the man said, I knew on my wedding day this wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right fit. Have you heard that before? Yes, they knew. And they still go through with it. I'm like, why do you put yourself through this?

They don't want to be embarrassed.

But then two, five years later, you went through just pain and sadness, and you settled for something that wasn't the right thing. People think, and I'm not judging people here, 'cause I've made a ton of.

My own mistakes, but it's like- We've all made those mistakes. We had to learn the hard way. Some people, you know, you have to learn the hard way and all opportunities for you to grow. But you can minimize that based on- Minimize it.

And maybe you go through all the premarital counseling and the pre-engagement and it still doesn't work out for whatever reason, but at least you hopefully have a-.

You did your due diligence. Yes. You did your due diligence so you can go in with a little more confidence because of your due diligence.

And if something would have came up in one of these conversations that you were like, that's completely out of alignment with what I want, You could have figured out, is there a solution to this? If not, then maybe you wouldn't have gotten married.

There are two things about what you just said, which is great. Because some people think that by getting married, it's going to change something or change a person or things will be different.

It's not. Yeah.

The only thing a wedding will change is maybe your last name. Right. Weddings will break the bank, but they will not break bad habits.

That's true.

Right.

So you can expect when you get.

Married, you've won the pie-eating contest. What is the prize for winning the pie-eating contest? More pie. You've won this person. What is the prize? You get more of them. So you better be happy with your choice.

Yeah, and you can't change someone.

Not because of pressure.

Yeah, or nagging.

Or crying, or any of those things. It has to be something- Within.

-You- come from within. Each person has to want to change. and I really don't think you can date or marry based on potential, personally. And I hear a lot of women saying, well, he's got so much potential. He could become this man, but then he never becomes it.

That's why I wrote this book. That's why I wrote that book.

And so you date or marry based on potential, but then you're really settling because who you're dating and who you're marrying is who they are. Maybe they grow into something greater. based on what they want, but you can't expect them to be on a timeline you want.

You are dating their reality, you want to marry their potential. Those two things should be aligned. Right. We went to pre-engagement counseling because I wanted to make sure that we were asking each other the right questions. And we were getting to know each other the best we possibly could before even making the to get engaged. To get married.

To get engaged. And then you had time to ask more questions.

Exactly.

Exactly. So what were the three conversations or questions that were the most challenging for you to have the courage to talk about or just navigate? What were the three most uncomfortable conversations in pre-engagement counseling?

How have you healed from your past?

Gosh, healing is so key. It's so key. Okay.

Because we both had past relationships.

Yes.

That didn't work out for one reason or another. And I think we both wanted to know if there were going to be triggers that would bring out something from the past in our current relationship. There's always going to be residue. We're human. And we're bringing our life experience with us. But there is a difference in making somebody pay.

For your past. Yeah.

And so exploring that was really important. -Okay, how have you healed from your past?

And like my therapist says, healing is a journey. It's not a one-time event. -A hundred percent. -So you've got to realize like, okay, you might have moments, you might have a moment of realization where you start to heal, but it's a continual journey until you really kind of let it go. -Yep. -And so how have you healed from your, yeah, and my friend Stephon Speaks says like, Step one before getting into any relationship is to heal, you know, or be on a healing journey.

Yeah. Because otherwise you're bringing that into the new relationship. And it is a journey. I don't think it's realistic to say, you know, one day, wait, I've identified where I've been hurt before and now.

Today'S the day, I'm just, I'm healed, it's over, it's done. It takes time. It takes time. If someone's entering a new relationship and.

They'Re not willing to start to heal from the past, what happens? You have to be really careful because you cannot make someone happy. I say this to people all the time. When I hear somebody say, well, this person makes me happy, I cringe. Because if that person makes you happy, then they can make you sad. If that person makes you happy, then they can make you depressed. Why are you giving the power to somebody else to make you happy? That's why it's important to be on the healing journey, because you do not want someone to be codependent on you. to make them happy. You cannot do that. That is not your job. Our job is to bring our happy selves into a relationship so we're not making the other person God in our lives. So that's why that's important. Right.

Okay, so that was conversation number one. How have you healed from your past? What's another challenging or uncomfortable conversation you had in pre-engagement counseling?

Well, what are your real expectations for me as a wife? What are your real expectations for, for him as a husband? What are those expectations? Do you expect me to cook dinner five nights a week at 6 p.m. and, and, and have it just right there hot on the plate?

If we don't fully ask, and I think you got to be so honest with yourself in these conversations, right? You can't say, well, no, I don't expect that. But then two years later, you're like, Why aren't you doing this? I was expecting it. Why is this so important to communicate expectations not only six months out, but like six years out? Here's what I'm going to expect.

Because when you have unmet expectations and you don't communicate them, resentment builds.

It's okay, yeah.

So if you, well, I thought that this, it was going to be this way, but you thought, but why didn't you, why don't you communicate it? in the other person's mind. You can't be a mind reader. So just communicating those expectations. You know, most people don't like conflict, especially men. They don't want to avoid conflict at all costs. So if they know that something that they're doing is going to cause a huge conflict, most times they're not going to do it. But do they know, have you communicated it? so communicating what those expectations are are really important. So in our pre-engagement counseling, we talked about what are the expectations? What are, you know, the time that we're gonna spend together, the household duties, children. We talked about all of those things. We talked about as much as we possibly could. And we had a counselor there to bring up questions that we didn't even think about.

What were those questions? What were some of them?

He just really wanted us to think about day-to-day life and how we were going to live our day-to-day lives, you know, once you get from under this fog.

Yeah, the wedding and the end.

The wedding and all of those things. What is day-to-day life going to look like for the two of you?

Yeah.

What do you think it's going to look like?

And setting these expectations.

Yeah.

What would you say is the third conversation that was really important to have? We talked about have you healed the past? What are your expectations? What would you say is the third conversation or question to ask one another?

About our life goals, our life path. If my husband would have told me he wanted to move to a small town in Texas and turn off the cell phones and get rid of all of our worldly possessions, and just live a real simple life. I think that's beautiful if that's what he would have wanted, but that wasn't on my life path and what I saw myself doing in terms of my career wasn't my vision. So just having an idea of your life path and again, things change as you go through life and your vision and your goals change, but just being honest about where you really would see yourself in the next several years, in the next 10 years, and how your relationship would play a factor in that.

Right. Well, you watched all these divorces happen and these stressful times, and you grew up with parents going through divorce, then you became, you know, a lawyer and judge of divorce. Did it Worry you by seeing all this constantly? Did it make you fearful of marriage and say like, is there even hope? Like are people even happy in long-term marriages? Or did it give you an education on here's all the things that they all did, you know, that they could have eliminated this pain if they would have done these steps and it gave you hope about being married for the future?

I think that I observed a lot and I took a lot of things in And I think that just, you know, we've all had people who we thought were in great relationships, and then for one reason or another, they don't work out. And you think, and it shakes you.

And you're like, if they didn't make it work, how am I going to make it work?

Right. And it shakes you. And so, again, it builds on that fear. I had to stop this notion of, you know, I'm going to protect myself. by not putting myself out there because then I won't get hurt again. That fear wasn't really protecting me. What it was really doing was poisoning my perspective. And I knew that I was not going to be able to step into my, the greatest relationship that I really wanted to have with that poisonous perspective. Everything is an opportunity to learn and everything is an opportunity to grow. so whether it was, you know, watching my parents and what they did, a lot of times you watch certain things and you, you learn what not to do and just taking all of those experiences. And I was jaded at some point. I did go through a period where I was cynical, but I had to reframe and reshape my own perspective and decide how I wanted to live my life and what what perspective I really wanted to have. And I just made a decision that I was going to go forward and believe that I could have the type of love in my life that I wanted. Because if I didn't believe it, it wasn't going to happen. So despite seeing all of these other things around me, you know, I looked at other people who had been successful. I looked at people who had good experiences. I listened to things that would build up my faith. And I learned how to navigate when I dealt with rejection or betrayal or hurt or pain. Six months before I met my husband, I went through a breakup. And I remember that day crying, you know, upset. Again, my feelings are hurt. I'm human. I'm having that human moment. But I also remember that day deciding, okay, you know what to do. You've been through this.

You're a pro at going through this.

A bunch of times. And you've learned, but the key was I learned every time it happened. Yeah. I learned and I grew. The first time I remember dealing with rejection in a major way, it changed my life.

What did you learn about it?

I was in college. and I wasn't dating anyone and they had this black tie event at the school every year. And I just decided I was going to ask the cutest guy I knew on campus to go to this event with me. I never saw him with a date or anyone so I figured he was single and it was fine. And it wasn't a big deal. I wasn't asking him to be my boyfriend.

Just go to this event.

Go to this thing. And so I walked up to him one day in the student union and I said, Hey Chris, This event is coming up Friday night. It's black tie. You know, it's our big annual event every year. Would you mind going with me? He looked at me and he paused and he said, Can I let you know? Can I get back to you? And I said, okay. And I saw him the next day, and I talk about this story in the book. I saw him the next day and he walked over to me and he said, Listen, I appreciate the invitation. Thank you for inviting me. But I can't go, so I'm not going to be able to make it, but have fun. So I was like, wow, okay. And I would see him around. I was a little embarrassed about it, you know, felt embarrassed. Yeah, you felt embarrassed.

Yeah.

But I went to the event and I had a good time. You know, I just didn't understand. I was like, well, I don't understand. It wasn't a big deal. Why couldn't he just go to the event with me? Five years later, I was walking down the street in my college town, and I walked into a store and he was in the store. And he called me over and he said, Hey, can I talk to you for a second? And I said, Sure. He said, Do you remember several years ago when we were in school and you asked me to go to this event? I really didn't remember. I had forgotten. It had been five years. But as he started telling me about it, I started to think it. I was like, yeah, I do. He was like, well, you know, I just wanted you to know. I want you to know that I actually really liked you. And I really wanted to go to this function with you, but he said, I didn't have a suit. And I didn't have any money to get a suit, and I had nothing to wear, and I was too embarrassed to tell you. Now, I was thinking, because I thought back at this time, everybody had one of those oversized Steve Harvey suits in their closet, you know, some Stacy Adams they could just pull out on occasion. But he didn't. What that moment taught me was, You know, I ran into him randomly five years later, but how many times do we go through rejection and we take it so personal and we make it about us and we go down this rabbit hole of, oh, he didn't like me because I'm not cute enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not funny enough. And we make up all these reasons in our mind when it could really be just somebody doesn't have a suit or whatever their reason is that has nothing to do with you. When I talk about going through dating experiences, and going through rejections and going through those relationships, I learned every step along the way. And every time I would go through it, it would get a little less painful. And I would learn a little more. And I would take what I learned and I would apply it to the next relationship. So by the time I got to the point where I was going through this breakup, six months before meeting my husband, I said, oh no, I know what to do. I know how to handle this. And I'm going to approach this in a completely different manner. and you know what I said for the first time in my life? I said, this moment, this breakup is opening up the door for me to meet my husband. Wow.

Did you know you were going to meet him within six months or were you like, I'm going to take a year or two and just be single? What was your mindset after the breakup?

I took a sheet of paper that day and I wrote down that I was going to meet my husband within the next year. And I met him six months later.

What changed inside of you from attracting him or, you know, were you going on a bunch of dates with guys or were you just like clear once you met him, you started having conversations and realizing this was more in alignment with what you wanted. How did you know?

I had a conversation with God and I said, you, know God, I've gone through a lot of lessons and I've had a lot of experiences and I'm going through this breakup right now. But I'm going to pass this test and I'm going to see this breakup as for what it is. It is this door is closing for a reason and for a bigger purpose because it's so easy to say that when you're not going through anything. But I decided to have that perspective when I was in the midst of the hurt.

Yes.

And I said, I will pass this test for myself because I know what to do and I know what this means and you know fight for the people say you know fight for the relationship, fight for what you want. No, I'm gonna let this go because once I let go, if it's happening and I let go, it's going to open me up to what's really supposed to happen in my life. If that means someone coming back into your life, okay, that's what it means. But more often than not, it's opening up and moving you into a new direction. don't fight against the current. So I didn't fight it. I accepted it. And I said, this is going to open me up. This moment in my life right now, I had that conversation with God and I said, I'm ready. I'm ready emotionally, financially, all the places that I needed to be into my life, I said, I'm ready and I'm at peace with this ending and I'm at peace with a new beginning that is opening for me. And I just believe it was my time.

Yeah, I think sometimes a breakup can be, like you said, a great opening for you, a breaking open of what's not working, what's out of alignment and get you on the right track of finding, creating alignment within yourself and then attracting that in the next relationship. And I think that's beautiful what you did. But why do so many people seem to settle? And why don't they end the relationship or wait until the relationship is what they want? Why do you think so many people settle?

It could be loneliness, fear, past experiences that have made them question their self-worth. You know, in the end, when you're making a choice, and if you do want to get married, because some people don't, and that's totally their choice, and their life path. But if you do want to, I want you to think about the commitment and the decision that you're making. The person you're going to have 10,000 meals with. The person you're going to travel, perhaps all over the world with. The person who will be the greatest influence on your children should you choose to have them. This is the kind of choice you're making. you've got to get past some of these hang-ups that we've developed just going through life. So you can bring a healthy you into the equation and see with clear eyes and know that this is not a decision. You can just pick a pair of shoes. You can pick a restaurant to go to. You can just pick a dress. You cannot just pick a spouse. You cannot just pick a partner. that decision is too important for you to take it lightly.

Yeah. When you put it like that, 10,000 meals, you know, I'm gonna have 10,000 meals with this person, whether it's 10,000 or 5,000, whatever the number is, but you're gonna have thousands of meals with someone. That's a good way to reflect and say, Am I enjoying the meals I'm having with them right now in the last six months or two years we've been dating, whatever it is, am I enjoying these meals? Because I'm gonna spend thousands more. And so if you're not, that could be a good indicator to say, okay, well, how does the relationship need to shift and see if we can get on a different track? Or maybe it's not the right relationship. But I think having that perspective is powerful.

Well, what you said very early on in our interview, you heard a TED Talk. Someone talked about getting into waiting.

Waiting. Yeah.

I will say this. I've never had a couple in front of me who had said that they wish they would have moved faster. A lot of them say that they wish they would have taken their time.

Really?

Yeah, move slower, got to know the other person better. And again, I don't think there's a magic number of months or years when it comes to the time.

Yeah, some people, you hear stories of them together for 40 years and they met and they got married six months later and they, you know, and it's been a beautiful journey. But you're saying most of these divorces They're not saying, I wish we did it sooner. They're saying, I wish we'd taken more time.

Yeah, because you know why? Because they were still learning about themselves. Yeah. And we're always learning, but they were at a key pivotal time in their lives where they were learning what really would work for them and what they were willing to negotiate on, compromise on, and what they weren't. The things that they weren't willing to compromise on. It's okay to have some non-negotiables. It's important to recognize when you're looking at a person's history, we talk about red flags. If a person has a history of infidelity, but they meet you and they say, but it's going to be different with you, that's a red flag. Because what about their history speaks to their loyalty? You know, the FBI, when they do a analysis and a profile and they want to put together a profile of someone and try to track their next moves, their next steps, You know what they do? They look at their patterns in someone's life because people lie, but their patterns don't. So they look at their patterns, they put together a profile of what they think this person's next moves will be based on their patterns. Look at people's patterns. What do they tell you about their lives?

Yeah. Take a look at the history. Now what if someone's completely honest about their past and says, you know what? I made a bunch of mistakes. I did this wrong, I hurt this person, whatever. I was in out of integrity with this. But I've been rebuilding myself and I've been committing to a new future that's not who I want to be anymore. Is that a red flag? They're brutal honesty. They're being radically honest. Here's what I went through, but here's my track record in the last six months, year, five years, I've been on a different track. Would you trust that person more if they've kind of made these mistakes in the past but been 100% honest and on the right track? Or should that, is that a red flag and you should be worried about their history still?

I would ignore their words and judge them completely by their actions. Do the actions actually show that there has been a change? If those two things don't line up, if a person's words and actions don't match, completely ignore what they're saying to you.

Yeah.

And look at their behavior only. It's fine that you're that I think honesty is great. So you've come to this person, you've said, you know, this was my past, this was my history, but I'm living a different life now. You should be on high alert. Mm-. And you should look to see if there is actually evidence of that change. Right.

What do you think makes a high value partner? What are the key things that would you say like, wow, this person is extremely valuable and I should take this seriously about entering a relationship or, you know, that this could be a great partner?

There are a lot of things, but one that I think is incredibly important is how do they treat people around them who they may perceive as weak or vulnerable? They're gonna see vulnerabilities in you. How do they treat the people in their life who can't do anything for them? Do they show everyone, is there a certain level of respect they have for everyone? Or is it conditional on who that person is in their life? If you want peace in your home, they care about being a good person. They know what service and sacrifice is.

Yeah.

Because that's what happens that is a big part of marriage and relationships. They understand that love is a conscious decision. People say, oh, I'm just keeping it real. Not when you're hurting someone.

Intentionally, yeah.

Yeah. So all of those things are really important.

That's good.

And they are bringing and they want to bring, they have a desire to bring their best self into the relationship. And no one's perfect. So I'm not talking about just a level of perfection here. I'm talking about a commitment to growing.

I hear sometimes people say like, marriage and relationships are hard work. And part of me doesn't like when they say that.

I know, I know. I used to feel, yeah.

I'm like, Then why get inside?

Why is it so hard?

Yeah, why should it be so hard? I think it takes conscious courage to speak up when you need to speak up, to have those challenging conversations, which I think a lot of people don't have because they're maybe scary or you're unsure what's gonna, the other person's gonna say, will they accept you, will they judge you, or whatever it is. I think it takes, you know, humility, all these different things. But should it be a grind? You know, I don't know. I don't think it should be. And I don't like when people say relationships or marriage is hard work. can we reframe that? So it doesn't need to feel hard. It's gonna take presence and patience and time and all these things and attention, but doesn't need to be hard work all the time. I don't know, I don't like that, but what's your perspective on that?

I used to hear people say that as well before I got married, and it also made me very self-conscious of the unknown, because why? People would say that and then they wouldn't explain the reasons why? I think that more than anything.

The.

Work is learning to love the new version of the person that you've partnered with as time goes on.

Love and accept them. Yeah.

Love and accept them. Because as time goes on, you are going to see change. Not the change as in, what we talked about earlier. I'm dating your reality, but I want to marry your potential because I'm marrying you, but I want all these things.

To change for you. It's not gonna happen.

It's not gonna happen. And I think the work comes in in letting go of this notion that when you get married, this person, this is it. And if anything happens over all of these life events that happen, that are inherently going to change someone. This notion that that's not going to happen. I think you have to get past that and learn to embrace this journey, this path that you're on, and be committed to the commitment. The work that, that you and I talked about is the work that it takes to maintain anything that you do in your life. It's the day-to-day yeah, it's the day-to-day that gets people. The little things that you do to keep the day-to-day running smoothly and to let your partner know that there is this appreciation for them as time goes on.

What's been the biggest lessons you've learned since being married the last couple of years then that have been different than when you guys were married? Has anything changed or do you feel like Everything we talked about beforehand, before pre-engagement, before marriage, we've followed through on. And so nothing has really drastically changed except for we live together now and we're married, but it's all been, you know, you've both been in integrity with what you committed to. And so has anything changed in your mind?

For anyone who gets married or you move into a close relationship like this, the change is embracing another person in your life and accepting the fact that they are a different person from you.

Yes.

They have different perspectives, different life experiences, different educational backgrounds, all of these things in their life that have shaped their perspective. And now you are trying to do life together. Yeah. You're in this boat, you're rowing. together. So it is a constant adjustment to allowing people to have the space to be who they are and have their perspectives and share those perspectives and realizing no matter what, you're on the same team. So the choices that you're making now, it's not just about you anymore. It is what is best for the team. So having that teamwork mentality is the adjustment. And hopefully when you go in, you've done enough of the work to where you're not the weak link on your team.

Right, right, right.

Because you don't want to be the weak link.

Someone's always picking up your slack. Yeah.

So, but just realizing and embracing that teamwork mentality. Even when you have an argument, even when you have a disagreement, your goal is not to win. Your goal is to find a solution that is best to move the team forward.

Yeah. My friend Jay Shetty says in an argument or a challenging discussion, it shouldn't be the person against the other person. It should be both people against the challenge, against the problem.

Absolutely.

And coming together on how do we solve solve the problem, not here's my solution, you're wrong, I'm right or whatever, but coming together on that. And I think that's a beautiful practice to focus on the challenge, not, well, you did this and it makes me upset, you know? So both finding the solution. I love this. This has been really powerful. You've got an amazing book, Sis, Don't Settle: How to Stay Smart in the Matters of the Heart. I think it's really challenging to let your head make the decisions for your heart. But you need your head to make sure that you're not allowing your heart to miss out on the red flags or signs that might be, your heart may not be looking for. So you kind of need both to be connected to really make sure you're in alignment. You're using your emotions and also seeing the facts and the data and you're using all of it to make a conscious decision about entering a relationship and then taking it to the next level. you've got so many great lessons and stories in here. You've got a lot of your own experience, personal experience, obviously, from, I wouldn't call them failures. They're just lessons. They were relationships that weren't in alignment to where you want to be. There's nothing wrong with that. We've all had those. You had a lot of those lessons. And also being a divorce court and watching all these people go through challenges and heartaches and the pains. So you have so many different lessons on how to make sure we hopefully eliminate that and don't have to experience those things in relationships. So very excited about the book, Sis, Don't Settle: How to Stay Smart in Matters of the Heart. Faith Jenkins, I've got a couple final questions for you.

Can I tell you why I wrote this book?

Yeah, go ahead.

I did not have these huge standards of love in my life growing up and didn't really know what a true loving, healthy relationship looked like.

Yeah. you didn't have a model. You didn't have a good model.

Yeah. Didn't have the model. And I realized as I started dating and I moved to New York, started dating in New York, and I realized when I started dating that I really didn't have a source to pull from to learn the do's and the don'ts and some of these things that, you know, would have helped me along my journey to make some better decisions. So a lot of things I learned the hard way. Yeah. Sometimes that's good in life. But, you know, people watch your podcast or they read books because they actually they want to learn how to minimize some of the mistakes that they can make.

Absolutely.

And so because I if you want love, if you want a loving marriage, you want to love a relationship, I believe that you can have it. But how do you get there? How do you get to that point? And so this book was really a passion project. What I wanted to write, you know, being single in my 20s and 30s, how I navigated all of the challenging experiences, all of the questions, the pressure from outsiders, and all of those things to get to the point where I am now two years happily married with the husband that I dreamed about having for so long. and I don't think that that story is just meant for me. I believe it's something that anyone who wants to have that kind of love in their life that they can have.

Absolutely, I think it's beautiful. And in a modern world of online dating and swiping and hookup culture and people thinking they have more and more options available but being less fulfilled and less happy because they're unsure of how to navigate these waters, I think it's really powerful for your lessons in your story and your examples to share in this book. So I'm excited for people to check this out. I want to acknowledge your faith for not settling because I think it's really easy for people to settle and there's nothing bad or wrong about that, but I think you were very clear on what you wanted. You made your own mistakes, but you learned every time and you got to this point and I think it's really inspiring to see specifically a woman wait until they're in their 40s to get married in this time when there is that pressure and to not settle, I think, takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage, but I can only imagine the amount of peace and love and joy and abundance on the other side of that courage. So I really acknowledge you for leaning into that, making that decision, and also using your voice to share this wisdom with other people. So congrats on everything there. This question is called the three truths question. Imagine it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine it's your last day on Earth, many years away, and you get to live as long as you want to live, and you get to create the life of your dreams. Everything you want to do, it happens. But for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, all of your message has been erased or it goes to some other place. So your book is no longer available, the content you've created online is gone. So no one has access to your information anymore, your content. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. This is all we would have of your information, your content, or three lessons. I call it three truths. What would you say would be these three truths, what you'd share with people from the lessons you've learned in your life?

Don't wait until you get your dream job. or you meet your dream person, or you graduate with that degree, or you travel places you want to travel, choose Joy now. Because if not, you'll run out of time. If you're waiting to reach a milestone to think you're going to achieve it.

Choose Joy. Second one.

The closed doors in your life are just as important. as the open doors. So I would say embrace the closed doors because they're redirecting you elsewhere and take that redirection as a sign, as a positive sign.

And the third truth?

You're going to hear your name spoken very early on. You may graduate from kindergarten and they may call your name. You may graduate from middle school or high school, they may call your name. I want, I don't want that to be the last time you hear your name called for achieving something in your life. So I want you to walk into rooms that are too big for you. I want you to walk into rooms where you're concerned that you may say the wrong thing. You may ask, am I dressed appropriately? I want you to continue to walk into rooms, into doors, where you're not quite comfortable, but you're there and you're in the room because that's where the opportunity will lie for you. That's where your success is going to be when you continue to walk into those rooms. Yeah.

Oh, I like this. I like this a lot. We can get your book on your website, judgefaithjenkins.com, you're on Twitter, Instagram. Instagram's kind of the main place for you, right?

I think so. Instagram, yeah, Judge Faith Jenkins.

Judge Faith Jenkins over on Instagram, Facebook as well. You've got this book, you've got a new show you're working on, lots of cool stuff for people. They follow you on social media, they go to your website, they can learn all about everything there. How else can we be of support to you?

You can follow me on my social media, you can read my book. I think that you know, I wrote the book to as a source of inspiration and hope. Yeah, that that was my goal. So I think that what you do here is amazing and I am, it's been an honor to be here today and be a part of this interview.

I appreciate it. Faith, final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Achieving a level of inner peace, no matter what is going on. around you, ships sink not because what's around them, but because of what gets in them.

Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

Nobody likes rejection, right? But the sooner you can get comfortable with rejection, like you are free. That creates so much confidence when you can be rejected a ton. And I feel like one of the best things that happened to me is when I was applying for a clerkship at the end of law school and I just got rejection after, I mean, I applied to like 90 different judges and then I also applied to a whole lot of law firms.