Do This FIRST THING In The Morning To NEVER Be Lazy Again! | Mel Robbins

And that's the riddle of life. That lying in bed hoping that you wake up some morning motivated to change. That's not the answer. You actually have to, I four years ago wondered as I started to see myself go from facing bankruptcy to building the eight-figure big.

I.

What happened for me is I started to say, okay, this is a really cool little trick. to bring out the most powerful side of you, but can I use this to actually cure myself of anxiety? And the answer is yes, you can. And four years ago, I went off Zoloft and I started using the five-second rule, which I'm going to explain in one second, to interrupt the patterns of worry and self-doubt, which, by the way, anxiety is nothing more than the habit of worrying, spiraling out of control. And body feelings triggering now the habit of obsessive worrying that turns into anxiety and then kind of escalates to panic. I started using the five second rule to interrupt my thoughts every time I would feel that kind of worry kick in. And because the prefrontal cortex is awakened when you use it, your mind is now ready to take on a totally different thought. It's a very different strategy than just trying to switch the channel on what you're thinking because you're actually inserting the step that nobody talks about, which is switching the gears in your mind so that your mind can actually take and believe the thinking.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So the five second rule.

Wait, first off, when did you discover the five second rule?

Okay, so 2009.

This is when you first tried it or discovered it or?

Oh, it's a total horror show mistake.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

So 2009, I was unemployed and feeling.

Like- you- were unemployed?

How?

Well, okay.

Too much charisma, too much passion.

Yeah, 'cause everything's working right now.

That's why I'm not like this when.

Things are not working. Ask my husband of 22 years. Well, what had happened is I had had all these career changes and I got into the media business again by mistake. I had a coaching business and Inc. Magazine was writing an article about coaches and they featured me in it and CNBC called.

Got it.

And that led to me doing some stuff with CNBC and I spent a year still coaching people and then doing some stuff for CNBC and then Fox called. And they were interested in having me host a television show. Now, you gotta understand, I'm from North Muskegon, Michigan. Mm-. I mean, the media business, the LA.

The closest thing I had ever seen.

To a celebrity, Louis, was the Muskegon Lumberjacks, the farm team.

Right.

Right. From our, for the Pittsburgh Penguins. Yeah, the LA team. Yeah, my dad was the hometown doc for the hockey team there. Right, right, right. So I thought-- the mayor was a celebrity.

Wow!

Oh, my life's about to change.

I'm about to be a celebrity. Wow, we're gonna solve all this. This is amazing, you know? So I was originally going to be hosting a show for Fox where we were making over small businesses. Nice. Yeah, pretty cool, right? We show up, we like do extreme home makeover for the office, everybody's happy. We all know that doesn't solve business problems, but it makes for a nice television show. By the time I get to LA, they've changed the format. It's now called Someone's Gotta Go, and I'm gonna be firing people on national.

Television from Real Jobs. Wow.

Uh huh.

That sounds fun.

Horrible. Oh my gosh. Plus we haven't told the offices that this is what we're doing. Oh my gosh. So you show up in act one and you've got everybody all like this because they think they're gonna get new IKEA furniture and a paint job and this is gonna be the best thing in the world for their small business. Now meanwhile, I'm a fourth generation small business owner, so that's like my people. Grew up at a kitchen table with farmers and you know, my mom at a retail store and my other grandparents were bakers and so when it comes to like the heart and soul and what's so important when you launch your own business and how personal it is. I mean, this was like gut-wrenching. So I show up, the first act, you kick out the owner of the company who then freaks out, then all the employees freak out. Act number two, we announce that somebody's getting fired, and then that's the bad news. The good news is that I'm not picking. We're going to have you vote somebody out. So it's survivor in an office place. Oh my goodness. So that sucks. When I learn all this, I have a panic attack, even though I'm on Zoloft. I call the guy that got me the gig and say, you,'ve got to get me out of this. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. He said, well, I'm sorry, but they've already cast the entire show and you're out there for five weeks and you don't have a choice. They're going to sue you. I said, then fine, get me some Xanax, because I don't think I can get through this thing. This is awful. Luckily, we taped two episodes and legal tabled it. But here was the problem. I was attached to the show and I only got paid if the show was shooting. And being an entrepreneur, I also kind of put all my energy into this, shut down the coaching thing.

Yeah.

Really thought that it also kind of negotiated a deal that was a sort of a back end deal thinking I'm a, you know, entrepreneur always thinking about gotta have a piece of the action. Yeah, that was a dumb move. And I was in a contract for a year while they figured out what to do.

So you couldn't do another show? Yeah.

So, you know, I just felt like I had made a huge mistake and I felt really embarrassed. And I didn't know at the age of 41 what I should be doing with my life. And while it's neat that I had jumped careers so many times, I started to feel like somebody that actually wasn't successful at all because I didn't have a career track. I had a bunch of jumps from one thing to another. Now looking back, it makes perfect sense, but standing in the middle of the mess, it just felt like everything was caving in. Probably just like when you were sleeping on your couch feeling injured and like everything I thought that was about to happen isn't happening now. Meanwhile, my husband had opened up a restaurant business. It had been his dream. He worked in high tech and came home one day after getting laid off and said, I'm never gonna get on a plane and do a PowerPoint presentation for a company I don't care about or own. And I said, Great, what's your plan? And he said, I'm gonna open a pizza restaurant. And I looked at him. And I said, was there a trust fund that was part of this marriage that I was unaware of? Because I'm not quite sure how it works.

Did someone die? You got an insurance policy?

Yes. And he said no.

And.

I then said the most famous lines of our 22 marriage, 22 year marriage, Louis. I looked at him and I said, listen, buddy, inspiration is for strangers. You get your ass back to that job and you pay the mortgage and.

You forget the stream.

You're not going to this. So we. Well, because Change is scary.

Yeah.

So we fought and he won, and the first one was a real home run. He opened a pizza store. Oh, he did, yeah. 40 seats right outside of Boston, Massachusetts. He and his best friend, and they won best of Boston. It was incredible. What do you do when everything-- They made money, though.

They did on the first one.

So what do you do when everything's working?

Woo, let's go all chips in.

Let's put in the home equity line.

Let's put in the kids' college savings. Let's get friends and family. And because you're so excited, you think it's gonna work, so you go big, big, big. Well, the second one did not work at all. And it did not work at all so badly that when it was finally closed, it was close to an $800,000 loss. And it meant our entire home equity line, kids' college savings, everything went right down with it. That was right when I lost the Fox show. So I'm unemployed, the liens start hitting the house, the phone starts ringing all the time, and it's collections calls. So you unplugged the phone. That was the phone that was bugging me out. Well, you just unplug the phone. I mean, that's how you deal with that.

But.

I remember two things from that period in my life that were really painful. And one was having to call the town and tell them that we could not afford the 175 bucks for our sixth grader to play soccer. So we needed to pull her out. And I remember there being times because I was so afraid to look at the checking account. that I would stand at the grocery store and items would scan and I could just feel that wave of anxiety rising thinking, I don't think the check card's going to go through. And so I would stand there. I always had an excuse and it was to look at the person and go, oh, that's strange. It just worked at the gas station.

Oh my gosh.

Because what would have been more empowering is to probably say, oh, well, I guess I don't have the money for this. Let's take this, this and this and just kind of Like the easiest thing to do is to tell the truth, but I was so filled with shame. So I started to develop this habit of hitting the snooze button. Because what would happen is the alarm would go off in the morning and the first thing I would think about is all the problems that we had and how awfully things had gone off the tracks.

You didn't want to deal with them.

No, and I also didn't know, I didn't know I didn't think I could. And this goes back to the feelings. Like you think that you need to feel confident or courageous in order to get started. You don't. You actually just have to start and that's the riddle of life. That lying in bed hoping that you wake up some morning motivated to change, that's not the answer. You actually have to learn how to push yourself. You have to learn how to leverage the power of your decisions and you've got to learn how to take action. Because every morning when I woke up I did not feel confident. I felt like a loser. I felt like the world's worst parent. I felt like I had failed at every single turn. I did not know if Chris and I could pull out of the spiral. I did not know if we were going to go bankrupt and lose the house and move from our community. I did not know if our marriage would survive. I knew I wanted it to. And see, this is the knowledge action gap. You can know what you want, you can know what you should be doing, but how do you make yourself do it when the feelings and the motivation isn't there? when all you got is fear. And so every night I would lie in bed and I would say to myself, all right, that's it, Mel. Tomorrow, it's the new you. Tomorrow, you're gonna wake up and be motivated, you're gonna get up, you're gonna exercise like everybody says you should, you're gonna meditate, you're gonna get those kids on the bus, you're gonna screw Fox, you're gonna look for a job, you're gonna cold call Cox Media, and you're gonna do auditions. Come on, girl, let's go, let's go, let's go. You're gonna take a cold shower, whoo, you know, here we go. And I I meant it when I was saying it. Maybe it was the alcohol that was talking, but then I would wake up and I didn't feel any of those things. So I would hit the snooze and I would hit the snooze. Now, why was I hitting the snooze when I knew it wasn't the right decision? I'm going to tell you why. And this is something that I was blown away by when I discovered it. You don't make decisions with your goals. You don't make decisions with your prefrontal cortex. You don't make decisions with logic. Do you know how we make decisions? I didn't invent this. A neuroscientist by the name of Damasio, who does his research in Brazil, who gave an incredible TED talk and wrote about this forever and ever and ever. We make decisions with feelings. 95% of our decisions are made by how you feel in the moment. And that is the problem. You need to take control of the moment and leverage the power of your decisions and make them up here. Because when I was lying in bed, I wasn't saying to myself, I should get up because that's gonna help me start my day right. I was saying, do I feel like getting up?

No, you don't.

No.

Do you feel like making that cold call? No, you don't. Do you feel like doing that third set of reps? No, you don't. Do you feel like having that hard conversation? No, you don't. Do you feel like ending this relationship? whether it's in business or in your life that is sucking you dry. No, you don't. We make decisions based on our feelings and that is robbing you of joy and opportunity. And it is blinding you from the fact that how you change your life is one five second decision at a time, one push at a time. And if you accept the fact that you may never feel ready and you may never feel motivated and you may never feel confident, you may never feel courageous and that's okay, but you can still push yourself forward. What happens over time is as you start to see yourself becoming the person that takes action, that you start to see yourself becoming the kind of person that speaks even though your voice is shaking, you're the kind of person that has a bias toward moving instead of a bias toward thinking, guess what happens? You build the skill of confidence and courage. And so what happened for me is I was stuck, Louis. I mean, I was so stuck. I was on, I mean, we were heading straight for divorce. We were heading for bankruptcy. I knew I wanted to change things. And so one night I see this commercial. This is the stupidest story on the planet, but this is what happened. I see this commercial. And, you know, again, I also was drinking too much. I mean, I probably had a couple of Manhattans in me. That's my drink. I'm from the Midwest, just like you. All right, little Manhattan there, a little bourbon. And there was a rocket ship launching. On a commercial.

Yeah.

And I had this instinct, this innovation, this disruptive idea, right? Oh my god, Mel, that's the answer. Totally dumb. See, it's like this is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. I cannot believe I have this chick on my podcast.

I understand it.

You gotta get moving first.

Yes. That's the thing. You just gotta wake up at 6 a.m. or whatever it is and go into the gym. And when you're in the gym, you're gonna start Moving the first weight and then you'll start moving the second weight.

Yes, actually people use the five second rule at the gym because you know how much time people waste at the gym standing around thinking about the next thing?

Probably 70% of the time.

5-4-3-2-1. So the next morning the alarm goes off and nothing had changed in my life. I woke up to the lean on the house, the fighting with Chris, the unemployment, the lack of confidence, the lack of courage, the whole thing. But I did something I had never done before. I went 5-4-3-2-1, just like NASA. I actually counted. And then I stood up and I was like, what?

What?

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The next morning I used it again.

It worked.

The next morning I used it again. It worked. And then I started to notice something and this is one of those things. So we have an 11-year-old son who has dyslexia. And when they finally diagnosed him, it was as if Of course. It was as if, like, how could we have possibly missed this? Are we the worst parents in the world? I mean, the kid can barely write, he can't cut his food, he doesn't read, like, no wonder he doesn't do team sports. It was right under our nose. And what I'm about to tell you is right under everybody's nose. There's a five-second window between the instincts, the shoulds, the urges, the inner wisdom, the things that can change your life if you listen to it. Got a five second window from the moment you feel that instinct to move. And if you don't, your brain is actually designed to kill it. Five seconds is all you have. The second you hesitate, it's action and you feel yourself hesitating, that is a moment of huge power because what's happened is you've just started to pull back from something that you need to lean into. And if you count backwards 5-4-3-2-1 and this is the neuroscience behind why this stupid little trick works, Counting is an action. Counting backwards requires focus. It's also not a habit for you yet. So when you feel yourself hesitate, you're triggering your mind that something's up. Like Lewis didn't hesitate when he pulled on his pants, he didn't hesitate when he's drinking his coffee, he didn't hesitate when he walked out the door to the gym, but now he's hesitating to make that call. Your mind now goes into a cognitive bias called the spotlight effect. It magnifies whatever it was that you hesitated.

Doing?

The moment.

The moment, yeah.

Like all of a sudden you're like, I don't feel like it. I don't know, maybe I'll do it later. And your mind is doing it because your mind's trying to protect you. Hesitation signals a red flag to your mind that something's up. Just that small hesitation, it's a habit.

That we all have.

Should you hesitate if you're getting a tattoo?

Yes.

Should you hesitate if you're gambling?

Yes.

Should you hesitate if you are signing a legal document?

Yes.

You need your prefrontal cortex for those things. You need to interrupt it, make a power make a decision. Should you hesitate on making a phone call? No. Should you hesitate on speaking up in a meeting?

No.

Should you hesitate when you feel yourself starting to procrastinate and you know you got work that you should get done? No. You shouldn't hesitate in saying the thing that you really feel in your heart.

No.

You shouldn't. Should you hesitate and edit yourself when you're talking?

No.

You shouldn't. But we've all trained ourselves to. So it's actually this habit of hesitating. You start catching yourself. It's a huge moment of power because you have a decision to make and you gotta make it in the next five seconds. Are you gonna go on autopilot and get trapped in your mind? Or are you gonna 5-4-3-2-1 and awaken your prefrontal cortex and drive forward?

What is that saying to ourselves when we don't celebrate the hard work we put in?

You're not worthy of it. You haven't done enough. Even this amazing podcast that you have is enough, Louis. I'll high five you when I sell it for $100 million, or I'll high five you Right? It rings true because it's true.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not there yet. And somehow if I celebrate this, am I gonna get the big thing? Like think about a marathon. So a marathon, I think life is a marathon. And if you've ever watched a marathon or run a marathon. I'm running one in a few months.

Are you?

My first one.

Oh, fantastic.

I'm a little terrified.

Why?

You've done it?

Yeah, I've run four of them.

Well, run is a very aggressive-- Jog, run?

Sort of.

Yeah.

Like, you know, if over five hours could be, you know.

Okay, you finish.

Yeah, I finish. I walk through the, you know, the water things, but you're a big guy, so it might be hard on your knees. That's what I'm saying, yeah. So here's the thing that you're gonna love about it. Okay, tell me. The entire time you're running, spectators are high-fiving you.

It gets you through it. Yes. That's what I keep saying. I'm like, I feel like running alone.

Is so not fun. If you can do a 13 mile training run.

I did a 13 mile.

Yeah.

Yes.

A few months ago.

Then you can run a marathon.

Really?

Well, because...

It's just gonna get you through it.

Well, all of the people get you through it.

Yes.

Every high five is a transfer of energy. It's a transfer of belief. It drips dopamine. What did Dr. Amen say? It actually harnesses the energy of celebration in your nervous system. Every high five says keep going. It says, I believe in you. It says, you,'re gonna you're going to get there. It makes you enjoy it. The same thing happens in your bathroom mirror. If you have big goals, you better stand in front of that mirror and high five yourself every day, every single step of the way. Stop looking around and waiting for everybody else to do it. Start giving it to yourself and you will be shocked at how much more quickly things start to happen, at how much more joy you experience along the way, at how much more Present you are. It's wild.

What's the difference between high-fiving yourself in the mirror versus high-fiving your partner or best friend or business partner?

You already do that. You already do that. You're already throwing all this energy at everybody else. And then you get pissed off when it doesn't come back to you.

Right.

Yeah. Take some of that and give it back to yourself. Improve the connection you have with yourself. And this isn't about like pumping yourself up to think you're like the best person on the planet. This is like the baseline. This is literally being like, you know what? You're gonna have an okay day. Let's go do this. You know what? I see you. I know this is hard. Keep going. I know you're nervous to have this hard conversation with this person. I believe you can do it. Let's go. Like it's just one little boost along the way. If you think about the things that go viral, it's little kids in front of a mirror with their parents getting them to talk after themselves.

Believing themselves, yeah.

Correct. We all know that's how we're supposed to feel. But we feel weird and cheesy practicing it. Are you kidding me? The other thing that goes viral, all these teachers that are high-fiving and fist-bumping kids with those handshakes as they go in and the mirror one with the I am that just kind of went viral. Why do we all love that? Because we know each one of those kids just felt seen and felt good and felt motivated walking into that classroom. Start your day that way.

Yeah, they feel empowered.

Yes.

It's easier to learn from a place of empowerment than.

Correct.

Negative thoughts.

I'm glad you're here.

Yeah.

I see you.

Right.

Glad you showed up today.

Yeah.

Let's go do this.

That's cool. What's the hardest thing you've had to deal with with the negative thought process in your mind? Like, what's the most challenging thing in your life to overcome the negative thoughts?

You mean like a specific situation? Like you've had a lot of success.

You keep manifesting, but what's something, like what's the biggest struggle for you? Currently? Where you give yourself negative self-talk. Like what's the thing you have to constantly try to overcome?

Oh, that people are mad at me. Really?

Oh yeah, yeah.

That people are mad at me. That I've done something. It's actually, it's not that people are mad at me, it's that I've done something wrong.

And so that's why people are mad at me.

Yes. Yes, the default in my brain is I've done something wrong. It was really interesting when this book came out. I mean, you and I are fantastic friends, and we are super supportive of one another. And we share a lot of mutual friends.

And I.

Did not want to reach out to anybody. that we are friends with and ask them to be on their podcast because I presumed everybody would say no.

Why?

I have this default setting that I've done something wrong, that you're secretly mad at me, that you would feel that it's a sense of obligation, and that I would be imposing myself, and it would be this weird thing. Like, this is a complete just play that goes on in my mind. --So, it's just a story. --Completely. --Completely. And I don't know if I'll ever get rid of it. --Really? --Yeah. But it gets quieter and quieter and quieter. I kind of laugh at him like oh for God's sakes just text him. I mean he's either gonna say no or whatever. And but it is something that I.

Struggle with for sure.

--Interesting.

--Yeah, like this deep... --Where do you.

Think it comes from?

I don't know.

I think it comes from like, if I had to.

If I had to really unpack it.

Like, maybe it comes from having a mom that was 19 and who didn't have her family around her and who probably was dealing with a lot of fear and grief. And my dad was in medical school, and she was working nights for the R. IRS. Both their families were on the East Coast. They were in the middle of Kansas. I can only imagine. how overwhelming and anxiety ridden it must have been. And what we know now, I mean that book that Oprah did with Dr. Bruce Perry about what happens in your development from basically zero to eight months, I feel like that probably had a big impact. Not anything intentional, but just like how stressed out things must have been. Like I did, I recently, my husband and I recently did a guided MDMA, therapy session for trauma. It was one of the most life-changing things I've ever experienced. And --I've heard great things about MDMA. --Oh, it's unbelievable. It suspends, I'm there's no way in hell I'm ever doing ayahuasca. I don't need to poop or puke or any of that stuff. And I also feel like if I did ayahuasca, there would be monsters all over the place. It would be a horror show. And the thing that would come out of it is me going, I can get myself through anything. That's what the drug taught me. And I don't feel like I need to have a really scary trip in order to make that happen.

I have no desire, yeah.

But MDMA, I will shout from the rooftops, it suspends the amygdala, which is the fear center of the brain, so you do not have the scary response. And so we did this incredible thing. We were together, having separate experiences. We laid down on these mats. They made a six-hour playlist. You put a blindfold on and the music guides you. And as the drug took a hold and my intention was I wanted to look back on my life and see all the good. And it was because I tend to, like everybody, focus on kind of the bad stuff. And not that there's been a lot of bad stuff either. And so, I mean, if anything, I had an amazing childhood. I had My parents are still married. They're still in the house I grew up in. I grew up in a tiny, amazing little town in the Midwest. Super close family, like whatever. But I still think the trauma that gets stored in your nervous system is very individual. Whether it's a critical parent or you're just hard on yourself or it's generational crap that gets passed down, we are all healing something. Whether it's ours or it's our grandmother's. that got passed down through your mother and onto you. And so the music takes hold, and the very first vision, it was almost like being on a roller coaster, and it takes a turn like Space Mountain, and then you come on to a scene of your life. And there I was on our lake, Bear Lake, in North Muskegon, Michigan, with Jody Brickman, my best friend from elementary school, and we were ice skating. And I was there, Louis. I was in the scene. And then as the song ends and you go into a different one, it takes you to a different part of your subconscious. And wait to hear this. I was sitting in a baby carriage, and the first vision was-- well, actually, I didn't know I was in a little basket. I was looking up at the sky, and it was this beautiful sky with these big white clouds, and there were these kites flying all over the place. And then I looked over and across from me were my parents. And they were so young. My mom had this beautiful pixie haircut that she had when she had me. And my dad had a perm. My mom used to give me a perm back in the late 60s. And I was filled with so much love. And I was also filled with so much empathy for how alone they were. It was them against the world. And that really shifted something in me in terms of that experience and how I see, like, look, I love my folks. My mom and I have the kind of relationship, she's one of my favorite human beings, and we can stand each other for about three days, and then we literally want to kill each other. And I think as a kid, I made it my job that she was okay. If she was unhappy, I tried to make her happy, which only made her unhappy. And so I feel like my tendency in relationships is to try to make everybody okay, which constantly leaves me feeling like, I'm not okay, or if they're not okay, I'm not okay. That there's something wrong. I've done something wrong. And it's a very common pattern, by the way. This is like about as classic as it gets. That doesn't mean there's anything horrible that necessarily happened. It's just that as human beings, we are energetically intertwined with one another. And so what was interesting is after this incredible experience, which was literally like watching the movie the thrill of your life. I have experienced almost no dysregulation in my nervous system. I had an experience the other night. We ordered from PF Chang's and we ordered everything and I have one daughter who's like gluten-free this and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da and I felt the volcano come to my ankles. And then I very calmly said, Hey, Ken, that's dads. Could you put it back? And you can have what you ordered or just make something else, but don't take dads. I didn't need to erupt. And so that was one impact that it's had, which is incredible.

That's great.

And we only did this a couple months ago. And then the second thing that happened afterwards, I called my mom and I said, you, know, I had this vision. Because I didn't know. And I said, you know, we were, all I could see were kites. And she said, oh, that's Kansas City. There's a park we used to go to.

Wow.

Is that not crazy?

That's crazy.

Yeah. So I think that sort of default, there's something wrong comes from just energetically hardwired into.

Right. People around me, are they upset at me or they upset in general?

I also think this stuff is generational. You know, when I think about, you know, my, I come from a long line of very hard-working farmers and, you know, my dad's side of the family owned a bakery, immigrants, and, you know, it's not an easy life.

No, it's not.

Not an easy life at all.

Working hard all day, your whole life. There's a strategy that I started doing when I was broke. I was like, I could really start making some money. I could really start making some money and someone said, Money comes to you when you're ready for it. I was like, I feel pretty ready. I'm like, I could use some of that money right now. I don't like feeling broke. But I said, you, know what? I'm going to start looking at the world as if I see money everywhere.

Yes.

Yes.

And I literally start, I find money all the time. I see $20 bills, $100 bills I found just on the street randomly. Quarters and nickels and dimes.

Start with a penny. You could do this with a heart rock.

Yes.

His mind is open to it. This is how you train your mind. You basically tell it what you want by saying, this is important to me.

Start looking for it.

You start seeing it.

Yes, and by the way, this is also why it's important to get the thing where like, boom, I found it. See?

Yes.

And then it makes your mind do more. This is why it comes back to the positive affirmation.

If you start to high-five yourself and.

Tell yourself that you deserve to be happy and you deserve to be fulfilled, you will start to see reasons for it. Now, the problem for most of us.

Is that half of the day we're on autopilot. And that's not me making a guess. That's what researchers that study habits and study psychology say. That half of your day you're basically kind of checked out and you're on autopilot. And when you're checked out and you're on autopilot, Any behavior pattern that you repeat can take over. And guess what are behavior patterns that we repeat? Thinking patterns. So self-doubt, worry, procrastination, overthinking, analysis paralysis, fear. Those are all thinking patterns that are habits. One of the most important things that I want people to understand is that you're actually not a worrier. You have a habit of worrying. Big difference. You're not a procrastinator. You have a habit of procrastinating. Big difference. And when you understand that any behavior pattern, whether it is a thinking pattern like you doubt yourself all the time, or you get trapped upstairs noodling everything and you can never get started, or whether it's a behavior pattern like you drink too much, or you snap at your kids, or you micromanage your team. Every one of those behavior patterns and thinking patterns can actually be interrupted and replaced using science. Now let's talk about the second part of the brain. Drive, that's this puppy right here. This is what you want. This is your prefrontal cortex. Drive is the mode where you're in charge of your thoughts. Okay? It's where you are fully awake, you are present and you are driving your thoughts and actions. When you're doing that, your prefrontal cortex is active. The prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that you need in order to learn new behavior, in order to do something difficult, in order to do something uncertain, in order to do strategic thinking. So I'm going to give you an example. So I'm a righty. If I were to try to write with my left hand, like you Lewis is gonna torture me and tie my hand behind my back and make me like do this. I could do it. It would look like I was writing with my foot. And if Lewis came up to me and said, Hey Mel, you want some bulletproof coffee?

I'd be like, Lewis, I'm trying to concentrate. I can't do this.

My prefrontal cortex would be El Fuego because it is firing on all cylinders to communicate to my hand new behavior. So, The thing that's cool about that is that you can use a simple trick. The moment you feel yourself hesitate, the moment you've got one of those moments where you know that you need to, this is that moment that Lewis talks to you about where you've got to step outside of your comfort zone and you've got to lean into your passion and you've got to really take some risks and you've got to feel the fear and you've got to do it anyway, that's the moment where you just woke up and now you got a decision to make. Are you going to drift back into the habits or are you going to awaken your prefrontal cortex and drive forward and focus and do something new? and so the work that I've been doing and speaking about is all about the five second rule, which is a trick that I invented by mistake that helps you manually switch, no joke, your brain. It turns off and interrupts the part of the brain that is where all your habits and your behavior patterns are encoded, and it awakens your prefrontal cortex, which in five seconds flat allows your brain to help you change. And so anyway, I was rambling on and on because you went on this thing about how your patterns can be destructive and nobody teaches us and that's absolutely right. And what I want everybody to get out of this conversation between us is that you cannot control how you feel. You cannot control what triggers you and the fact that you may rise up with anger, you may rise up with self-doubt, you may have anxiety, fill your body, but you can always control what you think and how you behave. And we spend way too much time trying to focus on manipulating how we feel about things and not enough time practicing the skills of controlling your behavior and your thoughts.

Because if you can control your behavior and your thoughts, then the way you feel would be different.

100%. And a lot of us are sitting around waiting to feel ready. waiting to feel courageous, waiting to feel confident, waiting for the right time. And that's not ever coming. Ever, ever. You're not going to change your life up here. You only change it through action. And so to me, you know, I did this interview with your friend Tom and we talked about how motivation is garbage and this somebody memed it and went crazy. And so the point that I was trying to make is this, is that Yeah, motivation is great if you feel motivated, but it's garbage and it's a losing bet to wait to feel ready. Because your body's not designed that way and neither is your brain. And so I want everybody to understand that first of all, you can't control the things that trigger you and the fact that you're going to feel afraid and you're going to feel doubt and you're going to feel uncertain, but you can always interrupt that feeling and take control in the moment and actually shift what you're thinking and shift how you behave.

Yeah.

And, you know, the bigger the dream, the more fear you're gonna have. You know, even if you feel like you've conquered the fear of something, in order to grow, you've got to take on some new challenge. And there's going to be uncertainty, there's going to be some stress, or there's going to be some worry, or there's going to be some ego checking, and there's going to be some identity crisis.

Yeah.

So there's always going to be this fear that could arise. Always. Always. I mean, did you Do you feel like once you've mastered this that you have no more fear?

Me?

Yeah.

No, the fear still comes, but I have 100% control of what I think and do. So one of the things that is important for me to put on the table is that a lot of times people look at where you are now. And so they'll see me on television or they'll see that TED Talk or maybe you'll be in an audience of 20,000 people in the American Airlines Center and I'm on stage and you're like, wow, that chick must have just been more incompetent.

Her.

The fact is, that's not at all how I was. When I was 19, I started having crazy panic attacks and they got so bad that I took medication and medication was a godsend for me. I took Zoloft for two decades. When I had our first daughter who is now 17 years old, the postpartum depression was so bad that they put me on Ativan, which turns you into a zombie. and I could not be left alone with her. So when it comes to self-doubt and to how we can torture ourselves with our thoughts, boy, have I lived that nightmare. And as I started to use the five-second rule, which we're gonna get into, and everything about my life changed, 'cause when people first learn the rule, what you're gonna learn, what you're gonna start doing is you're gonna start using the rule to push yourself to do things that are annoying. You're gonna push yourself to get up on time. You're gonna push yourself to work on your business plan. You're gonna push yourself to make calls that are scary. You're gonna push yourself to get to the gym. You're gonna push yourself to speak up more at work. You're gonna push yourself to put the booze down. Behavioral, behavioral, behavioral.

And then you're gonna start to actually use it to change the thinking patterns that are self-sabotaging. The greatest gift is this moment of pause where you get in touch with what you actually want. And if you don't have the skills for crying out loud, look around and take an online course because if you need skills to prepare yourself for the thing that you want, get them right now.

Yeah.

What is the thing you really want then? You've gone on this grab chase of opportunities that have come your way, not in a bad sense, but it's like here are a way for you to share a message and be on thousands of stages and do a talk show and You know, it sounds like it was your part of your dream, but it was it your, was it a dream of like, wow, this sounds amazing or is this is exactly what I want? Because I remember, I remember you texting me a year and a half ago, two years ago saying, I'm working on the deal with Sony. It's good. I think it's gonna happen. And then a couple weeks later, it's happening. And then I see all the announcement. It's exciting, you know, I had a talk show on Facebook for a little while.

Yeah.

It's exciting stuff. and then you put your whole life into one thing and then it's over. Now you have transcended where you were before because of the skills you acquired and the opportunities you created for yourself and you've sharpened your coaching abilities and on camera stuff. Everything has gotten better, but how do you, you know, what do you think about that?

Well, so let me back up. Three years ago when I was last on The School of Greatness. I had just published the five second rule book. Your support was life changing, Louis.

Like you literally were the person.

If I had shimmy down into the kind of barrel of a cannon, you freaking lit the match and shot me.

I don't know about that. You did. Oh yeah, you were crushing it on your own. Don't worry.

Well, so I, you know, since then, what has happened, and this is one of the things that I have I have reflected upon during these last 10 weeks that I've been off the road and I've been working from home, which I've loved every single second of. Everything that I have done since we launched the five second rule book was in reaction to things that were coming to me. So I never sat out and said, hey, the five second rule audiobook has been a complete.

Like record breaker.

We clearly have an audio audience. Let's go pitch Audible. Audible came to me, which is fantastic. I never, I always dreamt about having a talk show, but I wasn't out pitching one. Sony came to me. In fact, the only reason why we got into courses, online courses, and we now have more than a half a million people that have taken our courses online. Was because Success Magazine came to me. and said, let's do a course together.

I remember I was there interviewing you for it.

Oh, I hated it. Because what I discovered is I hate being told what to do. And so, but that gave me the idea, oh, we should do courses ourselves. And so this pause has made me stop and go, what do I really want to do? And the, the truth is, I want to go and make the biggest possible impact that I can. Mm-. And I want to collaborate with more people.

Yeah.

And I want to do events. Um, and I, I don't want to be the CEO. I'm a terrible leader.

Horrible leader.

The worst actually. Um, because I'm amazing at coaching. I'm amazing at, creating. I'm amazing at reacting. I'm terrible at managing people. I am terrible. at managing a project. I have ADD, I have dyslexia. I'm a bulldozer when I get anxious. I know we are. We kill each other if we were roommates or business partners.

But.

But I think understanding yourself is really important. And so there's a couple things that I've decided. Number one, I'm going to consciously create the next.

Yeah, and what is that?

And I'm, well, I'm still in the middle of doing it.

Yeah, but you want to advance, you want to do these things you're talking about, yeah.

Yes, and I want to collaborate more with a wider audience of people. And I want to build a brand bigger than Mel Robbins. I don't want it to just be me. I want to build a platform-based business that reaches more people. Because here's the thing that has got me through kind of the loss of the talk show and the way that I think about things that I hope helps if you're listening, you're kind of struggling with something. I believe, and I went into the talk show saying this to myself because there's a 99% chance based on the history of people that have tried to have a daytime talk show that it.

Was going to fail.

And I went in there saying, I'm not doing this because I expect to have a successful talk show. I'm going to put 1000% into it so that I have no regrets and I wouldn't change a thing. But I'm going into this because I know that there is a skill, a person, or an experience I am meant to have that will help me for the next chapter that I can't see coming. And the experience was, number one, meeting Mindy Borman, who is my executive producer, now my business partner and CEO. And it was also in working with a team of 130 people and finally being in the right seat on the bus, Louis.

And not having to manage everything but being in your lane.

Yes, and having a team and you.

Not being the one doing everything. I know that feeling.

Well, it's not even that I was doing everything. It's that I didn't have anybody managing me.

Right.

And so your mind is going to go into like opportunity, opportunity, opportunity as opposed to focus mode.

Right. And so if you ever wonder why it feels like we're running in circles, it's because I'm the one leading us in circles. Right?

Yeah.

And so it's a very hard thing to spot when you're in the middle of it. But when I got into a machinery that operated in a way where I was in the right seat on the bus, it was absolutely liberating. And that was the biggest gift of all. And then the third thing is, I think the daytime talk show and being face to face with your audience and having such a big daily audience, it was really amazing. to be able to have an impact on a large number of people who feel forgotten because they're a little bit older if they're still watching TV. And a lot of the folks who are still watching TV at home during the daytime do not have the resources that you and I have and may not have access to therapy or live in a community where it's stigmatized. And so having a platform that was reaching people that really appreciated this kind of content and also working with a really diverse range of experts, absolutely incredible. So I felt like I was organizing a killer dinner party conversation every day with real people's problems and the world's best experts. And so you kind of do a similar thing here on your podcast. So I know I want to continue to do that. But I'm in the middle of creating it. So if I said anything other than I know it's events, I know it's more courses, I know it's collaborating with more people and getting outside my comfort zone, and I also know that as I set out to write down what I want to do, there is so much freaking fear that I have.

Why is that?

I think that's the other thing about patterns, everybody, is just because you identify, and for me as a kid, for whatever reason, I Have my own version of feeling invisible and feeling like I'm not good enough. And so my way of coping both with my anxiety and being a survivor of sexual abuse and, and wanting love, which we all need is I was like an overachiever. And so I'm the kind of person that's super busy and a go getter because it got me attention. and if I was the one that was super busy and achieving, I not only got praise, but it also insulates you from other people not picking you because you're the one in a leadership role doing the picking.

Right.

And so there's a part of me at the age of 51 that is realizing that, you know, this, these feelings of feeling unworthy and this hyper To.

Still don't feel being the most booked female speaker in the world.

It's annoying. And human beings are annoying. We are stuck with this wiring. Like if you think about it, like all of the crap you believe is probably a hangover from age zero to 10. That as adults, we walk around thinking the same stuff we thought as kids. and I can't stand that I feel that way, but knowing it, it allows me to catch it before it has me, before it stops me from having an event or writing that next book or taking a risk.

What do you think the biggest fear is? Because you say not worthy or not feeling enough, is that...

I mean, it's just people liking me. I think like, you know, being a people pleaser, Yeah.

We're so similar in every way. It's crazy. It's great. Don't like you.

It's lonely, dude.

What happens if 99% of people like you and 1% doesn't like you?

I think the work that we all have to do, every single one of us, whether you bulldoze, Whether you people please, whether you avoid conflict, whether you're impulsive, whether you yo-yo your decisions, whatever it is that is your pattern, you know, the constant trashing yourself. I think the journey of your whole life is figuring out how to truly like and love yourself.

It's so true. I remember this was my whole life was never loving myself and needing to go prove to others originally that I'm worthy. This was happening in sports and business until I started opening up and accepting myself and taking off the mask when I turned 30 talking about sexual abuse and just kind of saying, screw it, I don't care what people think about me anymore. this pain inside is hurting so much, it's not worth living with it. So I'm going to start sharing and allow myself to heal and allow myself to finally love myself. And it's so funny that we could just write a book with two words that says love yourself. And that's all the book needs to say because a lot of us never remember to love ourselves, remember to acquire skills which are important, remember to love other people, remind ourselves to take care of our health. But if we don't love ourselves internally, if we don't think we can give ourselves a hug because we're not deserving of it, then none of this stuff is going to matter to the point of we're always going to need to do more to feel something.

Right.

It's- well, nobody teaches you how to do it. And see, that's the thing. And, you know, I mean, if you look at human development, we're the only species that literally can't survive without another human being taking care of you. And so we are biologically hardwired to bond with other people. and that is from the very beginning of when you come out, bonding with somebody else and making sure they pay attention to you is your survival imperative. So you are born needing somebody else. And I think what ends up happening is there's never that kind of clean break or pass off between needing your parents to take care of you, needing your friend's approval to fit in, to truly having ownership over giving yourself what you didn't get, giving yourself what you needed. And that's the piece that I've been doing a lot of during the great pause is slowing down because so much of my busyness was fueled by, you know, praise me, love me, am I doing enough? You know, please tell me I'm doing okay. Okay, I can breathe now. I'm okay now. And when I slow down, and maybe it's a function of the anxiety, that's when things get scary because that's when.

You'Ve really got to be with yourself.

And so it's in getting off the road, slowing down, recognizing that I'm super grateful for all the opportunity and I know the work that I'm doing makes a tremendous impact. And I particularly love hearing from mental health practitioners that the five second rule, I've heard from so many people in inpatient psychiatric wards, Louis, that use the five second rule in the videos we put on YouTube in their group counseling sessions with people. And knowing that it is helping so many people, it is like the greatest gift on the planet to know that it's making a difference. But I know that in this next chapter that I consciously create, I want to have more fun. I really want to love the process. I don't want to make it so hard on myself and be gripping everything so tight. And it's really easy for me to see it in other people because I know what it feels like in here. I'm working hard to break the patterns that still hold me back. And the big one that holds me back is bulldozing. That's the, it's literally when I start to feel any level of tension. This is particularly true in my marriage. I'm married to a saint. Thank God, Chris Robbins meditates every morning. It's the only reason why we've lasted 26 years. It's how he puts up with me. When I feel My like whatever emotion rise, I immediately raise my voice. It's how I assert power in the relationship. And I am so committed, Louis, to breaking that pattern and being a more fun person to be around and a kinder person to be around.

Wow. That's beautiful that you're getting this during the pause. what do you think was the biggest lesson you learned about yourself during the talk show experience before the pause? Because you covered so many topics and you had to research about so many things and you brought so many people on experts, but then just everyday people going through their challenges. What's the thing that you learned that was new? Because this is something you've been studying for years and talking about. Was there anything new that you were like, shocked about? You learned about yourself or about human behavior?

This is going to be a really, well, first of all, there's two things. The first one, I'll make it deeply personal. And the second one will be a thing that I learned. Okay. The talk show experience was almost like it's, it's weird, it almost feels like it didn't happen.

Really?

Yeah.

It was your whole life for like two years.

Yeah, but 175 shows, it was in super intense, you know, it was almost a spiritual experience because I had dreamt about it for as long as I could remember. And I stepped onto that talk show set with such a level of mastery. And the reason why I had a level of mastery is because I could look backwards at my life and see that I had been heading to that moment for my entire life. That the ability to create trust and take a complicated amount of information and get down to the human connection immediately, that began back in 1994 when I was a legal aid attorney doing criminal defense work in New York City. My ability to understand what victims of domestic violence go through goes all the way back to 1986 through 1988 when I was a crisis intervention counselor volunteering on a domestic violence hotline. My ability to read a teleprompter had to do with being at CNN. My ability to work 18-hour days was a function of the reality TV show my ability to relate to somebody who had lost everything was a function of what Chris and I had gone through. My ability, like just everything all of a sudden was like, and it's why I can say with such urgency that.

You have to have faith that this.

Is happening for a reason, that this is leading somewhere. And if you only just stay awake, and you pay attention to what your body's trying to tell you in those moments when you have a signal come up. Like I think right now, aren't you so happy you're a digital entrepreneur?

I've been speaking about building an online business for over a decade. And so now I'm like, oh, I know what to do and everyone's coming to me for the solutions. And our team is digital, so we are virtual, so we know how to run everything. And we We do Zoom meetings every week already.

Yes, and I am telling you, that is the power. You got to tune out the noise and you got to learn how to make what I call a quiet decision.

Something that I've tried to do and really been integrating my life is to reconnect with the child where I felt like I stopped loving myself.

Okay, so let's talk about this right now.

You ready?

Let me talk about this image. Let's talk about the Lewis this age. Standing in front of a mirror. Yeah.

And what I do is I stand in front of myself as a child. I imagine myself. But to do it, imagine looking at the mirror as yourself.

Yes. Well, what I'm trying to say is when you were this age and you stood in front of the mirror, you had a totally different relationship with yourself because you still loved yourself. You still thought that you were a great kid and you wanted all all the things that the adult Lewis wants. You want to feel loved, you want to feel seen, you want to feel heard, you want to feel like you matter. And you, in seeing yourself when you were this age, felt those things for yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. And somewhere along the way, you lost that.

Correct.

And so what I'm trying to say is that when you stand in front of this mirror, exactly what Lewis is talking about, when you've got coaches that scream at you and degrade you, and, you know, sure, it makes you run faster, but it leaves its mark.

It does.

It leaves its mark. And so there's research. So let me talk about why this is so motivating, particularly because so many of your audience love sports, right? So they did a study where they looked at NBA teams, and what they wanted to take a look at was, does fist bumps, backpacks, and high fives make a difference in a team winning? touch, right?

Didn't they do like a 2020 special or something?

I can't remember. I don't know, but if they did, I need to watch it.

Yeah, yeah.

But so like the power of touch. But I think it's deeper. It's the power of encouragement. And so what they found is that in the study, at least in the years that they looked at, you could take a look at the teams that made it to the championships in the NBA, go all the way back to the preseason, and those were the teams that had the most number of fist bumps and back Hats and high fives. Yep. And the same was true about the teams that were the lowest in the league at the end of the season. They had the least amount of fist bumps, high fives, and touch. Why?

They're the least encouraging.

Correct. Those sorts of gestures build trust and partnership. I'm telling you, when you stand in front of a mirror and ignore yourself, you're like the losing NBA team.

Interesting.

On your own, isolated, you're not in partnership with the person you're staring at in the mirror. You don't have your own back because you're ignoring yourself. Yes. There's another study, and this one is, I think, even more powerful. So they did this study where they wanted to know what's the most motivating thing to help somebody get through a really big challenge. They divide, the researchers divide kids into three groups, right? And they gave each of the groups of kids very challenging problems to work through. And they wanted to measure, okay, how resilient, how long would they work, what were their attitudes like? And then they measured it based on, well, what form of praise or support are we going to give each one of these groups? And let's see what's the most empowering.

Interesting.

First group gets what we know to be the fixed mindset stuff. The praise was all verbal praise. and it was simply about a trait. Lewis, you are so smart. Lewis, you are a super student praising something that is just sort of a compliment about you. The second group of students working on a challenging problem got praise based on work ethic. So something in their control. Oh, Lewis, you're working so hard. Lewis, you got such good perseverance. Lewis, you're really just grinding away over there.

Good job.

Those guys did better than Lewis, you're smart. Louis hardworking, better. The third group, the researcher simply walked up, did not say a word, and high-fived the kid.

Really?

That's it. That's it. That group literally, exponentially, more motivated, worked longer, worked through more challenging problems. Now here's the big question, why? Why would a simple high-five with no verbal praise be more empowering and motivating and inspiring and develop more resilience and confidence and motivation inside somebody. And the reason why is this. A high five affirms your deepest fundamental needs. It's not just a gesture. When you high five somebody, particularly somebody who has either blown the free throw shot or is working on something difficult or going through a really hard time, When you high five them, you're saying, I see you. When you high five them during a challenge, you actually are acknowledging, I know this is hard. So the person feels heard. And because it's one to one, and you have to be really intentional, like if you and I go to high five, like we have to focus on it. That was a good one. If you miss it, what do you do?

You gotta do it again.

Correct. So there's an intentionality behind behind it and that makes you feel like you're being affirmed as a unique individual.

Interesting.

And so all of those things are in that one gesture. Now it goes even more. So there's even more here. So I was talking to our buddy Dr. Daniel Amen, right? And so one of the world's leading experts on brains, he's got like 60,000 brain scans. I think it's like 120,000.

Oh, isn't it this one? That's some crazy, yeah.

So he was so excited about the high five habit. He completely geeked out. He's like, oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes. He's like, yes, neurobics, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So we then, he said, let me tell you what else is going on, Mel. And I'm like, really? There's more?

He said, yeah.

He said, you know how when you do it, you said you felt like a little kind of boost in your mood? He said, well, there are two things going on there. He said, first of all, when you cross a finish line, And a race, what do you do?

Put your hands up.

Yeah.

What do you do when your favorite team is losing? High five someone. Yeah, you high five somebody. What do you do at a musical concert? Yay. What do you do? You know, you're raising your hand in celebration when you high five somebody or fist bump them or put your arm around them. That raised arm gesture in a positive sense triggers your nervous system to tingle with celebration. It's the energy of celebration, even if you're going through something difficult. and even more, you get a dopamine drip when you do this. And so part of the reason why you feel this kind of shift in your mood and you feel a little bit of like, oh, okay, I can face this, I can do this, I got this, is because of the dopamine, it's because of the nervous system, and it's because of all of this positive programming associated with that gesture. Isn't that crazy?

That's powerful. That's powerful. I mean, so what does someone do though if they just constantly have the negative self-talk? talk on their mind that they're no good. Do they go in front of the mirror every 10 minutes and do this?

No.

Or is there another strategy behind the negative self-talk?

Well, okay. So first things first. Definitely make this high five in the mirror a habit. Okay? So start practicing it. Give it five to 10 days and start to see what happens. The second thing that you can do with negative self-talk, okay, is you need to start to interrupt it. So the thing about negative self-talk is that it is typically something you've engaged in since you were yay high. And in addition to it being wired into your brain, it is also something that can get triggered by your nervous system in stressful situations. And so the first step, and we can talk more about the filter in your brain and how the filter in your brain is causing you to stay stuck in a lot of this negative self-talk and how to use your mind to help you. But the first step is you got to do the awful part of getting self-aware.

Yes.

Of what the voice is saying. And the way that you do that, there's a couple techniques that you can use to create what researchers or psychologists call objectivity. You want to separate yourself from the voice. So you can do what Lewis is doing. He's writing down right now in a journal. You can keep just a little notebook with you and you can kind of catalog when your attitude tanks and what are you actually saying to yourself. Okay?

So should we write down all the things we're saying?

You could.

We're negative about ourselves.

You can.

You can.

I personally do it this way. I start to notice when I feel down or I start to notice when my energy drops. and then I tune into what I'm thinking about and if it's negative, I go 54321. I literally notice, oh, you're sitting there thinking you're a bad person again. Oh, you're sitting there thinking that somebody's mad at you again. Oh, you're sitting there thinking that you screw everything up again. Oh, you're sitting there thinking that you, that nothing ever works out for you. Oh, you're sitting there thinking that you, you've blown it. Interesting. And then I go, 4-3-2-1. I go, I'm not thinking about that. That's the most basic technique to use because what I want you to do, since this is like operating on autopilot, it's encoded right here when you're not really thinking, this is what's running, kind of like the soundtrack of your life, when you just start to notice that you have a thought that's not helping you, you can't control that it popped up, but guess what you can do? You can smack it down. And so I use the five-second rule. which we've talked about a lot on your show, count backwards 5-4-3-2-1. The counting backwards awakens your prefrontal cortex. It gives you a moment of control. And then the way to build distance, Louis, is say, I'm not thinking about that. And here's why. You're so used to thinking this way, I can't just say, stop thinking you're fat and start thinking that you love your body. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. So you've gotta go, oh, there I am. I'm trashing the way that I look. telling myself that I'm overweight, I look like, I'm hideous, nobody's gonna love me. I'd be like, 5-4-3-2-1 I am not thinking about that.

It's an act of defiance.

See, I want you to go from these negative thought patterns to a more.

Positive.

Empowering high-five attitude. Because if you continue to live in, I'm fat, I'm unworthy, no one's gonna love me, I've screwed up my life, that will be your life.

Right.

And the trick on this is, I'm not saying change your thoughts and unicorns appear. I'm saying change your thoughts so you stop the 24/7 beat down.

Yeah.

And learn how to lift yourself up so that you can face the things that are going on in your life. And so that you can take the actions that you need to take to change your life. Because the reason why you're not changing is not because you're not capable. It's not because of the trauma or your past or anything else. It's because of the beatdown. That's why you're not changing.

It's draining.

It's draining. It's demoralizing. It is, and by the way, if you constantly are like, I'm unlovable, I'm worthy, I'm this, I'm that. Why on earth would you feel motivated or do you think you deserve to change? If that's the thing in your mind, it doesn't work. And so pay attention. When you feel your energy go negative, you're like, oh, okay, what am I? Oh, whoa, that's disgusting. Five, four, I'm not thinking about that. The second thing you can do is once you kind of get good at.

Interrupting it, I want you to name.

Let's turn it into a character. So I did this with our son Oakley when he was struggling pretty profoundly with anxiety when he was in the fifth grade. He named his anxiety Oliver. And then we asked him to describe Oliver. And Oliver was like this pimply-faced kid that-- what is that, the Diary of a Wimpy Kid kind of bully looking kid? And whenever the negative worries and stuff would come up, you could literally hear him go, Oliver, shut up. And it is the ability, what's happening when you name it and picture the person, is that you're able to detach yourself from that voice in your mind that's talking. Because that voice is typically a caregiver that either talked to you that way or talked to themselves that way or some bully or some trauma experience or some nasty coach that beat this into your head. It's from somebody else. And so we want you to separate yourself so you can be like, oh, that's what Oliver sounds like. That's not actually how I want to talk to myself. And so identifying it, interrupting it, and then you can get into the really incredible magic of rewiring your brain to work for you.

How should we manifest the dreams that we have inside of us. And what's your thoughts about the law of attraction on how to apply it the right way or?

Yeah, I think the law of attraction and manifesting are the same thing. So law of attraction for everybody who has not read the Secret is simply your thoughts become things. And it's true. We've talked all about how when you have a negative self-talk, it tends to draw more of that to you. I think about it like lint in a dryer. Once negative stuff starts starts to collecting, it collects a lot more. We can also talk about your brain filter, something called the reticular activity system and how it is a live network that filters the brain. We'll dig into that deeper, but let's do surface level right now manifesting law of attraction. So here's what everybody gets wrong about manifesting. Everybody, at least kind of in the mass market, what you're trained to think about when you think about manifesting is Vision boards. And when you hear the word vision boards, you think about the big stuff. Should you have big dreams?

Of course you should.

Should you dream of building a mansion on the ocean, if that's your thing?

Yes.

Should you dream of the log cabin? Yes. If you want a Lamborghini or the new Ford Bronco, should you buy? Yes, yes, yes. If you want the family, if you want the body, should you think about? Yeah, absolutely. Here's where everybody goes wrong. You Dream about the end, you make this gorgeous collage of all this stuff that has nothing to do with your current life. That literally, as you're sitting in your studio apartment with the cat box that hasn't been changed in two weeks, no.

Food in the fridge.

No food in the fridge, and you're looking for a job and you're staring at a mansion going, Someday, it's gonna make you feel like a loser. Because the gap between where you are and where you want to go seems insurmountable. And so what happens based on the research is when you only visualize the end game, Louis, it's demotivating. At first it's really fun to have a bottle of wine and make your like collage, I'm gonna visualize, I'm gonna slap this up, there's my vision board, fabulous. Law of attraction, baby. Come on, I'm gonna think about it, it's gonna come to me. Okay, I've been doing this for two days. I'm still in this apartment with the cat box that needs to be changed. The way to visualize properly is to visualize the bridge between where you are and where you need to go.

The bridge.

Yes, and particularly the horrible stuff. So let's use your example of the marathon. The vision board would be Lewis Crossing, The arms up, the metal. High fives, yes, I did it. Exactly. That will not help you because when you hit mile 13 on the actual race and it is sleeting rain.

You're saying, why am I doing this?

Yes, it feels nothing like that thing on your vision board. You're going to start a negative dialogue. I can't do this, my knees hurt, this is not what I thought it was gonna be, I'm not ready for this, I didn't train for this. for this. I'm running New York. I trained in LA. Are you running in New York?

LA.

Okay, good. Well then at least you trained in the right weather.

So on and on and on and.

You are going to tank yourself. What you do by visualizing the bridge is you train your nervous system and your mind to do the hard work. So you should visualize not crossing the finish line but what is it like to be at mile 12 when your batteries run out on your earbuds.

Yeah.

No, I'm serious. And you keep going. What's it like when your shoelace breaks and now your heel is lifting and you're starting to get a blood blister at mile 17? What's it feel like when you wake up and it is pouring rain and you visualize yourself running anyway? That way, when you visualize the work, you are preparing your body for it. so you're not resistant to it when it comes. Isn't that cool?

I think it's great. It's a story that I had, George St. Pierre, who's one of the greatest UFC fighters of all time. He said that he always puts himself in the most uncomfortable situations in practice leading up to the fight. The hardest situations to get himself out of. When his arms are behind his back, faces against the mat in between the fence, and he's just getting punched in the face. He's like, how do I get out of this?

Right, right.

He's like, visualize that and seeing how.

Can I get through this?

Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

When it seems like I just wanna tap out.

Yes.

Instead of tapping out, what's the process for figuring out how to get through it?

Yeah.

To then raise my hand at the end victorious.

Totally. And so you are literally building up almost like this and this muscle inside of you to do the work to get the thing. So yeah, create the vision board, but make sure in addition to crossing the finish line, you have somebody running in the rain. You have somebody who you have an alarm clock that says 5:13. You have these images that show the stuff that you don't want to do. So like for people who want to launch a business, for example, like a lot of people that I'm sure follow both of us are dying to launch a business. a business or interested in being an influencer, social media, or making money online. And what you visualize are the checks, or you visualize the money you're going to make, or you visualize how cool it's going to be when you're a lifestyle entrepreneur, whatever the hell it is. Don't do that. Visualize working a day job and telling your friends that you're not going to go out tonight because you're working on something. Visualize making cold calls and being told no. Visualize not going to that party because you're staying in on a Saturday and not going to the barbecue because you're putting in the work. Visualize sitting in a seminar and learning from other people. Visualize watching YouTube videos. Visualize your first ever course failing miserably. Like literally that's the sort of thing that you want to visualize yourself doing and pushing through because that's going to help you do the work. Isn't that cool?

I think that's great. Yeah, visualizing So in order to manifest what you want, don't just visualize the good things happening, visualize the bridge, all the things that's gonna take to get there.

Yes, and the hard parts of the bridge, because then you're ready for it. Then you're like, I didn't expect this to be this hard. I mean, it's still gonna be hard. But you're less likely to quit. Yes.

So what have you done in the last five years to help you manifest after the first book? Were you doing this as well, or Kind of once you get on a rhythm and build momentum, does it become easier to manifest in your opinion?

Well, so I am constantly training my mind to work for me. And there's this little trick that I talk about in the book that is all sort of the beginning of having a high five attitude. And the high five attitude is the ability to catch yourself when you're going mentally low and to flip yourself back up into a high five attitude. Okay. The thing that I know to be true is that you cannot control the things around you. You can't control what's going to happen. You can't even control how your nervous system might respond or what thoughts might pop into your head. But you can always choose what you do next and what you make it mean, right? And so that's where all the power is. And so I do this thing. where I, this is again, it's going to sound so dumb, but it's a way for me to introduce you to the power that your mind has to change in real time. We've talked a lot about negative self-talk and part of the reason why negative self-talk is so crippling is not only because you've repeated it for so long and now it's a pattern, but it's also because you have a filter on your brain called the reticular activity system. This puppy is the keys to everything. And it's remarkable that most of us have never heard of it. We've experienced it, but we don't know how to use it to our advantage. So first let me tell you what the RAS does. Then I'm going to give you an example of when you've experienced it your life. And then I'm going to explain to you how to use it to get what you want in life. This is like the super attractor manifesting and it also works for interrupting negative self-talk. Like it's gonna supercharge all the work you're doing with the Mirror and interrupting thoughts. So first let's talk about the RAS. So the RAS, imagine a hairnet on your brain. Only it's like electric, meaning it's alive. Okay? Now the RAS has one job. And the job is block out 99% of what's going on and let in 1% of what's going on. Our brains at this moment in history are having to process about 34 days worth of cell phone data in one day.

Crazy.

It's crazy. And so your RAS has a monster job. It's like a bouncer at a bar. You're not coming in, you can come in. And you've experienced this. So have you ever You ever shopped for a car?

Yes.

Okay. So, what's the last car you bought? Tesla. Oh, Tesla. Oh, fancy.

Louis house. I like that. Well, I never had a nice car until three years ago. I had a $4,000 car for five years before that. Yeah, yeah. And then I was like, you, know what? I have no Bluetooth. I have no... It's like I just needed an upgrade. Yeah, I love it.

It was a 1991.

Dude, you deserve it. Out of 1991 Cadillac.

And I was like, okay.

I bought that car.

So I bought a Tesla, yeah.

Right.

And so before you thought about buying a Tesla, you drive down the road, you don't really think about it. The second you're like, you know, I think I'm interested in a Tesla. What do you see everywhere? Teslas. Yes, everywhere. Everywhere. My husband just bought a pickup truck. I'd never even noticed him. Now I'm like, there are baby blue pickup trucks everywhere. What is going on? That's the bouncer in your brain. And let me tell you how this works. There are only four things that automatically get through the bouncer in your brain. the RAS. Number one, your name. So you've experienced being in a crowded place and somebody's like, you think you hear Louis and you're like, huh, somebody call my name? That was the bouncer in your brain. The second thing that always gets let in is any threat to your safety. So there are loud noises all the time, but only ones in close proximity make you go like this. That was the bouncer in your brain letting it in. The third thing that gets let in is when you sense that your partner is interested in sex with you or somebody else. You're like, Chris, you know, who are you looking at? Stop looking at her. You know what I'm saying? You kind of pick up on the signals. That's the bouncer in your brain. And the fourth one, and this is where, this is the billion dollar thing that everybody needs to know. The bouncer in your brain lets in whatever you think is important to you. So when you get intentional about telling your brain what's important to you, like I'm interested in a Tesla, your brain's literally like, oh, let's let all the Teslas in. Come on in. Here's the downside to this. If you have told yourself that you are a bad person for the last 10 years, guess what your brain thinks is important. Examples that mean you're a bad person. So, I'm gonna give you a very specific example. So, I personally don't think I'm a bad person. I don't think I'm perfect, but I know I do my best. I mean well. I don't have that story about myself at all. I used to, but I don't.

And.

Let'S say I oversleep and I miss the dentist. I miss the dentist appointment. I'm like, ugh, I gotta pay the 25 bucks. I had to reschedule that thing. that kind of blows. That's all I think. And then I go on. My daughter, who constantly beats herself up and says she's a bad person. This is a real example, by the way. She oversleeps, misses a dentist appointment, and it becomes, see, I always screw everything up. I'm a terror. I'm always messing things up. I'm a, like, everything that gets let in confirms that you're a bad person.

She finds proof and evidence.

Yes, that's the bouncer in your mind. I'm here to tell you that when you get intentional about what you want to think about yourself, it changes in real time what your brain lets in and what it doesn't. That helps you with the other things that you're doing. The high five in the mirror, I'm not thinking about that, the pathetic mantra, hey, you know, just because I missed the dentist appointment doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I'm doing the best the best I can here. Give myself a break. High five. You know what I'm saying? Shake it off. Get back in there. It's true, right?

Right.

Because it's these little things. Somebody cuts you off, somebody reaches for the last thing of cereal that you wanted to buy at the grocery store. You think it's like a sign that the world's out to get you. This is all your story and your mind skewing the world to prove all of the stuff you keep repeating. And the only way to get a handle on it is to start acting the opposite, like high five yourself, even though you don't feel like it. Interrupt the crap that you keep saying. Put your hands on your heart and settle your body down. All of these things are things that somebody does when they care about themselves, when they think they deserve to be treated with care, when they think they deserve support. and when they realize they need it. And when you start to build yourself back up, you'll show up very differently in other relationships.

Absolutely.

You know, if you tolerate this kind of treatment from yourself, you'll tolerate it from other people.

How do you think we heal trauma if we don't have the resources to go to therapy or do workshops or whatever it may be? Even if we do have resources, we don't have the courage to put ourselves out there, how do we start to heal trauma within our body?

Excellent question. So we did a whole project for Audible Original called Take Control. That was all about the thesis was this, any area of your life that you're stuck, I am willing to bet everything I have that you have a trauma pattern from your past that you've never healed. You've got a boss that is abusive, guarantee you this has to do with a trauma pattern from your past. You can't succeed in the areas you want. You can't lose the weight. There's some pattern from your past. So the first thing is recognizing that you actually experience trauma. And I am a huge proponent, as so many people are, of widening the definition because I think up until about five years ago, most of us thought that trauma just meant, okay, you were in active duty. or you were in a huge accident or incident that was highly traumatic, or you survived some sort of physical, sexual, whatever abuse. Trauma is just about any kind of experience that you witness or you absorb that has your nervous system light up on edge and start warning you. So if you've ever had, like you could have a critical parent and you.

Just brace for them.

You could have a parent that drinks like crazy and you brace at five o'clock because you know they're coming home. You could have been abandoned by a parent or have a parent that was mentally ill. It's when your nervous system fires up to a state of alert that now gets programmed into your body as a response. There's a reason why so many Couples at 5 o'clock at night start bickering. And it has to do with the fact that at 5 o'clock is typically when a lot of parents 20 years ago were coming home from work. And that's when the arguing would start. And so what happens when you witness that or you feel it is as a kid, you're now in a state where you're on edge. Wow. I see you rocking in your chair.

Wow.

That's crazy. Well, I mean, I just remember you know, it's funny. There's a, there's a lot of good things that usually happen to our, our childhood, but we just seem to remember a lot of the bad stuff. And it's because it's, you know why, right? Because it's trauma.

Just like, and your nervousness, I guess. And also, your mind is wired in a way to prioritize the negative because your mind defaults to negative. So you got to build up the programming to positive. This isn't just woo-woo.

This is actually science. I know. So I remember. you know, my, the memories of the past, I always have to remind myself of all the positive stuff that, you know, my parents did all the time and what they were going through and giving them Grace and all these different things. But I remember, you know, when my dad would get home, it would be, it was, you didn't know what type of day it was going to be for him. You know, it was like either a Thunder coming through the, the wooden floors with his wooden shoes and, like, being angry and upset, or it was like the loving father that would take me out and play catch in the backyard. So I have to Constantly remind myself of like the pos which I'm certain it was 90% of the time was good, but those 10% of the time, you know, creates that clenching mode like you said.

Well, let me explain what happens. So this really interesting concept called ghosts in the nursery. And so trauma patterns get automated. It because they're not experienced in your brain, they're felt in your nervous system. And so it's why you can have a pattern from your past, but be completely unaware that it's running your life right now, because it's stored not in your conscious thought, but in your nervous system. And you feel it in your body before it even gets into your head. And so there's this concept called ghosts in the nursery, which basically means, so for example, if you had parents that were just stressed out, and they come home and they've been busy and you're sitting there playing on the floor and there's toys everywhere and mom or dad's reaction to a mess is to scream. That creates this kind of thing in your nervous system. Now you may not remember that episode that happened on May 17th, 1972, but your nervous system remembers what it's like. So fast forward, you're now 51 years old and you walk in the house and there's a mess everywhere. And even though you have said, I'm not going to bulldoze and yell at anybody, my body recognizes the situation. So what do you do? You repeat the pattern you saw. And so what I'm working on right now is a pattern that is encoded in my nervous system. I was trying to create a video yesterday or two days ago.

For Share the Mic.

For Share the Mic now. Trying to create a video and I'm like doing take after take because I want to get it right. And my daughter comes waltzing into the room and was like, How long are you going to be doing this? And I was like, you can't do.

That and I'm working.

I literally like screamed at her. And she looked at me, Louis, and she goes, you, have a real problem.

Wow.

How old is your daughter?

20.

And I said, I calmly said, you,'re right, I do. When I get interrupted, I lose control of the response. And I'm working so hard and the way that you, and I'm clearly not mastering this yet, but the way that you do it is as you feel it rise up, you have to, you know, you can use the five second rule, 5-4-3-2-1. You can use, just take a quick I take a deep breath, you can notice the pattern, and you've got to create a pause between the emotion rising up and the reaction that gets automated.

I personally think most mantras are also complete garbage. And the reason why I say that is because you don't fricking believe them.

Right.

So if you think you're worthless, you're never going to be able to stand in front of a mirror and change your life by going, I'm worthy. Because your brain's like, who are you kidding me?

No, you're not.

We've been talking about this for your life. You're not worthy. You don't want me to show you so you have to interrupt it and if you're going to try to replace it, what you need to do are two things. Number one, you have got to come up with, I should have called it pathetic mantra because it would have been easier to remember. In the book I called it a meaningful mantra. We should just call it a pathetic mantra. You need to come up with something that's like, okay, you know, like if you're really like bad and you think you're a horrible person, Like, don't make your mantra, I'm amazing. Make your mantra like, I'm doing the best I can.

Yeah.

That's it.

Something simple.

Yeah, you can believe that, right? You can believe, yeah, I'm trying, you know, I'm not meaning to screw up. I'm doing the best I can. That I believe. And that's better than, boy.

I'm the best in the world right now.

Yeah, no, you're never gonna believe that. Ever, ever, ever. Like, for example, if you struggle with health and weight and stuff, it's probably going to be hard for you to stand in front of a mirror and be like, I love my body, because you've been rejecting it. So instead, look at yourself in the mirror and use a meaningful mantra. I deserve to feel healthy.

Right.

And I'm going to treat myself in a way that proves it.

Yeah.

That's it. That's different. It's different because it's believable. The only other thing that will change the way that you think is behavioral activation therapy. So there's a lot of the tools in this book that are grounded as a baseline in the body of research around behavioral activation therapy, which I know you talk about all the time on the show, which is basically act like the person you want to become. If you want to be more like Lewis, act like Lewis. Follow his morning routine. Take his advice. interrupt the garbage Oliver in your head.

5 or 3, I'm not talking to.

You Oliver, what would Lewis say to me? How would Lewis talk to Lewis? And start to act like the person you want to become and something interesting happens. And this is why the high five works by the way, because it is an action. You are acting like somebody who believes in and loves themself. That's why it works.

Move into motion. Don't just think only, but move into action.

So when you see yourself, you know, we always talk about positive morning routines. Let's talk about negative ones, okay? Because your negative patterns are the reason why you have horrible self-talk. Like when I was in law school, I hated my life. My anxiety was out of control. I was out of control. I hated law school. And so my Behavior actually reflected my state of mind. I would wake up hungover. I would immediately think, oh my God, I'm late. I would then reach for a cigarette and light it. Then I would run around the apartment getting dressed and trying to find everything because nothing was organized. I would then quickly drive to Dunkin' Donuts, even though I had no time, to stop for coffee. I'd get a big old coffee with four sugars and two creams. Smoking another cigarette on the way speeding my whole way there, then I would sit in class, be panic-stricken about being called on, same thing again, then I would sit at lunch, pick at a salad, gossip with friends, avoid the homework, then I would go to the library, procrastinate forever, then I would drive home, split a bottle of wine with my roommate, fall asleep, wake up, repeat. When you see somebody's actions, you can typically predict just how bad they're trapped in their mind. Absolutely. But I think we all are. I mean, I think even people that have healthy habits don't have a healthy relationship with themselves. That your self-talk is ground zero. Because how you talk to yourself, what you think about yourself when you look in the mirror, that sort of default setting in your mind, jeez Louise. I mean, it makes me really sad, honestly. I gave my first speech in two years because of the pandemic. yesterday in Salt Lake.

And.

There was a book line. And even though everybody had masks and they were six feet away, you could see the pain in people's eyes. The isolation, the sadness, the overwhelm, the feeling of uncertainty. And I think that people are they're feeling way more uncertain and afraid than they're actually saying right now. That the sustained amount of change that we've been having to manage, it's too much.

It's a lot.

And if you stand in front of the mirror and you can't see somebody that's worth supporting through this, you're just gonna continue to go down. Because the one person that you spend your whole life with is you.

Yes.

And this is the relationship you need to be working on. Like you want to be loved, you better learn how to love yourself. You want to feel worthy, stop looking for it out there and treat yourself like you're worthy. How do you do that? Well, by pushing through the resistance and raising your... Like if you can't frickin high-five your reflection, When you support yourself, you show up totally differently for everybody else. When you know that you can have your own back, you're not going to be looking for the validation from your boss or your friends or all these other things. People have problems with boundaries because they can't look themselves in the eye.

What about when things start to shift and we start to see, oh, here's a great potential relationship I could get into or I got a great job opportunity or something's coming my way. How do we learn to not self-sabotage the good things that come to us.

So give me an example. Like how have you self-sabotaged things in your life?

I can't think of a good answer. I don't think I really do that that much. But I know that other people do and it's a big issue. Maybe I'm trying to think.

Okay, so I'll tell you.

But if people get into a good.

Relationship, this is a really big answer though.

You ready?

Okay, so now let's detour into the lane. We talked about this on the last time I was on. But let's detour into the lane of anxiety, of patterns and trauma, and talk about why people self-sabotage.

Yes.

People don't self-sabotage intentionally. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, Today, I'm gonna screw up my life.

Right.

That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna drink myself on the ground. I'm gonna cheat on my wife. I'm gonna embezzle for my company. I'm gonna lie to everybody about how I'm actually feeling. I'm gonna stop taking my meds. I'm gonna kick the dog. Like, nobody does that. What happens is people get triggered.

And they react.

And then they fall into old patterns. And so what happens, I believe, in relationships in particular or jobs where you're like, this time it's going to be different. It's different for the first three to six months when it's novel and when you're intentional and when everything counts.

-But then when you got to face yourself.

-Then when it becomes like part of your life, you get lazy and you slip into old patterns or when the stakes get really high. Let's say you're somebody who you had a parent die early or your dad abandoned the family and you're scared to love somebody. And so you fall deeply for somebody. And then what gets triggered is this tremendous fear that they're going to leave.

Yeah.

Because that's your lived experience. And if you go back to what you did as a child to cope with that fear that somebody's going to leave, that's the exact pattern that you will repeat as an adult. the only way to end this or to try to get your arms around it is to attack it holistically. Because so much of this happens at the subconscious level and it also, it gets triggered first by your nervous system and you're not even aware of it. And so there's a tool that I talk about in this book called high five in your heart.

Your heart.

Your heart.

Yep.

So you What you do and I started doing this because I was having this incredible response from past trauma happen when the pandemic hit. So when the pandemic hit, I started waking up feeling like something was terribly wrong. And it would start in my ankles and it would would flood up my legs and go all the way up my body, and I would feel this wave come up. My immediate thought is, Something's wrong. And my heart would start to race, and I'd feel this full-on anxiety response. And I know what that is now. So I now know that the anxiety response of waking up, which so many people do, this is really actually very, very common.

People wake up anxious.

Yes, feeling like they're in trouble or something's wrong or something's about to go wrong.

That's not good.

Well, if you grew up in a chaotic household, that's normal.

Yep.

If you had a caregiver that gave you the silent treatment or had mental illness or had a drinking problem, or a narcissistic use in your house, you.

Did wake up anxious.

Yeah, because your anxiety, by the way, was trying to protect you. It was putting you in a state of being alert. alert so that you were ready in case something happened. But for a ton of us, Louis, we have lived our whole lives with a dysregulated nervous system. That's what I've come to learn during the pandemic. That I have literally lived since probably the fourth grade with my nervous system never truly resetting back to a calm resting state. And so I started to wake up every morning in the pandemic, like so many people did. And I've always kind of had this sort of wake up and feeling like something's wrong. Like, oh, Chris is mad. Like my first thing is like, Chris is already up.

He's meditating.

He's angry that I've slept 15 minutes longer than it. Like it's so stupid. You know, this is how we torture ourselves. But during the pandemic, it was like a full-on anxiety response. And so I started doing this thing.

Where I would put my hands on.

My heart, like right in the center of my chest. I got big mitts just like you. So you can kind of hit the whole thing. Take a deep breath and then I would say, I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm loved. If you can say those things in this moment, it's true. You are okay. You are safe and you are loved, whether you're waking up in a mansion or a homeless shelter. And what would happen as I was doing this high-fiving my heart is you're pressing on the vagus nerve. That's what you're actually toning. It's the same thing that Wim Hof is teaching with the ice bath. You're toning your vagus nerve. And what the vagus nerve is, as you very well know because you talk about on the show, is it's the switch between your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, fight or flight versus rest. So if you ever find yourself in a stressful state, give your heart a high five. Put your hands on your heart, go, I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm loved. Repeat it 111 times if you need to. What you'll feel is you'll feel your nervous system start to settle. You'll feel yourself come back into your body, you'll feel your mind slow down, and you will literally take control of your nervous system. It is unbelievable and it's also really important because in researching this book I talked to the acclaimed Dr. Judy Willis who's an incredible neuroscientist and She explained something I never knew, but it makes a lot of sense. If your nervous system is on edge, it's in a like alert state, you're dysregulated, it's impossible for your cognitive function of your brain to work. I can give you an example. If somebody were to bust in here with a gun and try to rob us, would you be able to do a math problem?

No.

No.

Just thinking safety.

Yes. Exactly.

Saved my life.

I can't, I bet the majority of people actually walk around with a nervous system that is on edge like that, particularly post pandemic. And for me, the reason why I've actually linked it all the way back. So when I was in the fourth grade, I was molested while I was sleeping by an older kid. And in the kind of array of things that can happen in terms of sexual abuse. Mine was very tame. Like it was a one-time incident. It was a kid who's slightly older than me. It was confusing, not scary. I just possum disassociated, don't even remember how it ended. And for a long time, I didn't even remember it. And then I remembered it when I was 28 years old. And I believe that the reason why I I have always woken up in a state on edge is because of that incident.

Since the fourth grade.

Yes. And the thing is, Louis, is that I, you know, the morning's a trigger. If you have that stored in your body, something happened to you, something happened to you, something's wrong, something's wrong, because something was wrong and you don't have the tools and no kid does. to smooth out your nervous system and heal the trauma, that trauma lives in your body. And so I believe most self-sabotaging behavior that people continue to repeat is nothing but stored trauma and your best ability to cope with it when it was happening.

That's why we sabotage.

Yes, so I don't think it's intentional. I really don't. Like even somebody who's diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, they don't know that they have that. Like they're not in, like there's not, it's like such a program behavior, there's no, I'm gonna go do the, I'm in love with this person, let's go screw it up. That's not what happens. And this is also why I'm telling.

You.

I know I'm crazy passionate about this topic of this standing in front of the mirror and changing how you see yourself. If you don't get a hold of that story, I'm worthless, I'm unlovable, I screw everything up, I'm a bad person, I'm not good enough, nothing works out for me. If you don't change that and start cheering yourself forward, you will stay locked in these self-sabotaging patterns because you will act in a way that you believe it subconsciously or unconsciously. I know, it's heavy. Oh, sorry, keep going.

It's all good, yeah. Man, so you're saying, You have 52 right now, as you said?

Yeah.

So you're saying I have a lot of work to do still for the rest of my life. It doesn't end.

I don't actually, I don't know. I don't know if you screwed up your life as much as I did. So I think it's like, and I don't know how much you torture yourself. I'm really good at torturing myself, or at least I used to be. And so back to your original question about learning to love yourself, I also think that even if you're wildly successful, whether it's successful in your relationship or successful at work, A lot of us, the more successful we become, the harder we are on ourselves. We harp on the things that aren't going right instead of really focusing on the things that are going well.

I started to use this rule as I noticed that every day all day long I had these moments of inner wisdom where I would know that I needed to pick up the phone and stop isolating myself. I would know that I needed to call a bunch of media companies and start auditioning for self-monitor. I knew I should not feel, let the frustration be the things that was driving me. And so I started to use the rule all day long. Whenever I felt this, I should do this 5-4-3-2-1 and I would make myself do it. And slowly, five seconds at a time, my entire life started to change. and my husband used it in his business and he and his business partner dove in. They went on to open seven more restaurants. I went on to launch and sell two businesses and get recruited by CNN and join their team. I had a syndicated radio show that ended up winning the Gracie Award, which is kind of the female media awards for the number one talk show in the country. And I never intended to tell anybody about the five-second rule. First of all, because it's stupid.

Right.

I mean, come on, count backwards.

That's the dumbest thing. Not stupid to me, though. Anything that works works for me.

That's true. That's true. I mean, I'll take any stupid thing. That's true. And so I, but I also was like, how do you start talking about something like that, right?

Yeah.

So, I was asked to give a TED Talk, like six years ago, and TED six years ago, not the brand that it was today. They weren't even putting the talks online yet. Really?

Yeah.

The TEDx talks were not online yet. And so that was the first speech.

I'd ever given in my life.

If you wanna see what somebody looks like having a panic attack for 21.

Minutes straight, watch that speech.

I was backstage and it was like one PhD after another going out there.

I'm like, what scientist?

The hell have I gotten myself into?

This is the dumbest thing.

And so at the very end, I wasn't even planning on talking about it. I say, oh, by the way, there's this thing I do. That's it. I don't even explain it. And you know why I didn't explain it, Louis? I didn't know why it worked.

So you didn't have the science or the research. You were just like...

Zero. Zero. And then something crazy happened. They put that talk online a year later and people started to write. We've heard from more than 100,000 people in 90 countries that have written to us that are using the rule in ways big and small to change their lives, to change their marriages, to change their thinking patterns, to grow their businesses, We know of 11 people that have stopped themselves from killing themselves.

Wow.

In the moment, there's a gentleman that we talk about in the book and you can see his social media posts in London. He was a veteran and he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and he boarded a ferry with the intention of jumping overboard. And he got to the railing and he was standing there and his inner wisdom kicked in. And this is another thing I want everybody watching to understand. I don't care what you're facing or how low you get. Your inner wisdom is always there. It is. And the thing is, is that we often don't listen to it. And so he's standing there intending to kill himself and that inner wisdom kicks in and he remembers the five second rule and he goes 5-4-3-2-1 and he turns and physically moves away from the railing and finds the first person working on the ferry and tells him that he's suicidal. Saved his life. He saved his life because he listened to the inner wisdom. And this is the other thing I love about this rule. It's not something to think about. It's a tool to use. So the part of the problem with a lot of the advice that I've found for me personally is that a lot of advice is all about kind of doing mental battle. And if I go upstairs, I'm behind enemy lines and I tend to get hijacked.

Right.

So I love this tool because 5-4-3-2-1 interrupts those patterns. It actually prompts the part of the brain that I need in order to change and it makes changing easier because I've now got my mind working for me instead of against me and it gets me out of my head. And so I'm super excited to share this rule with people because I now know Not only that it's working, not for me, it's working for people around the world. And in the book, it took me three years to write it. It's all the science behind the rule. It's got more than 150 social media posts in it. So you see stories from around the world of people using it to end procrastination, to build confidence, to deepen their relationships, to launch businesses, to explode the sales. Why does it help with sales? I'll tell you why. Because you can't sell by thinking. Selling is about action. We have groups from companies around the world, sales teams, that put 5-4-3-2-1 up on the wall. I'm sure they hate me. Let's go. Yes, because cold calling, it's a momentum thing. If you stop and think, the phone is not getting, the dialing is not happening when you're thinking.

Yeah.

If you think about all those nos.

You'Ve been getting, you're not gonna wanna do it again.

Yes.

It doesn't feel good.

Yes, and if you're in the middle of a negotiation, or you're in the middle of a really difficult conversation. And again, remember what we said earlier? You cannot control your feelings that rise up, but you can always control how you think and what you do. So if you're in the middle of a difficult conversation and you feel those feelings come up that normally trigger you to start editing yourself or to censor yourself or to silence yourself or to think sabotaging thoughts in like a business negotiation, 5-4-3-2-1, awaken the prefrontal cortex, get back in the game.

How has this rule helped you the most in what area of your life with your marriage, your business, and being more productive and not having to take drugs when you're worried so much? Or on stage, what's the area where you're like, wow, this has really had the biggest impact and I'm sure all.

Of it, but... Well, the most important thing in my life is my marriage. So my relationship with Chris is like, the thing that brings me the greatest joy. I mean, I'll just start crying thinking about it. And how many years have been married? 20 years. We've been together for 22 years. Three kids, 17, 16, 11. It has given me mastery over myself. Like I get so choked up just thinking about this. Like I used to feel out of control. And This rule allows me to be the best version of me and to interrupt all the garbage that can trigger you to behave in a way that's inconsistent with your values and your dreams. And so that has been the single greatest gift. That's great. And also, I think the other thing that's super cool is that it is a tool that certainly prompts you to act, but it is also a tool that helps you tune in to your inner wisdom. Like you're not only going to start waking up, you'll be so in tune with those signals that come from your instincts, not emotional, not instinctual, that you get a direct line to your inner voice, you get a direct line. You know, all these people, one of the things that's always That's always struck me. So if you list all the people that you admire, right? Yeah, Richard Branson, Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates, like everybody's got kind of this, yeah, well, whatever.

Louis, for sure.

If you list all those people, Jay-Z, Beyoncé, like everybody.

Yeah.

Everybody that you admire is doing the exact same thing. They actually listen to their inner wisdom. They have figured out how to tune out the critic up here and trust the instincts. And, you know, I have this saying about confidence that I've only recently kind of stumbled into as I've been digging into more research around the science of confidence and the skill of confidence. Because a lot of people think that confidence is a personality trait.

It's not.

It's actually a skill that you build through action. And a lot of people think confidence is a state of belief. It can be, but that's not where it begins. And so I say that confidence is the willingness to try. That's all that it is. Knowing that you may succeed or survive, but you'll still try. And to me, all those people that we admire most, that's what they're doing. They have the ability to tune into those instincts that are true for them. Because the fact is there's only one you. That's it. And you matter because there's only one you and there's only ever gonna be one you. And your instincts and your experiences and your inner wisdom is a gift to the world. And every time that you tune it out because of the habit of hesitating or the habit of self-doubt or the habit of worrying or the habit of overthinking, You are robbing the world of that gift that you have to give to everybody. And you can use this simple, stupid, silly tool to train yourself to not only hear it, but also to develop the skill of courage to act on it.

Powerful. And is there any area of your life where you feel like you lack courage still?

You know, I'll admit it's kind of easy. I think we all kind of go through those moments where you feel like you're behind. And I think social media is both an incredible tool and it can also be one of those triggers that makes you feel like, look at how many followers this guy has. And like, I'm gonna, I'm like, so.

Tiny compared to this guy right here.

Like it's easy to use technology and social media, not for inspiration, but actually as a way to bash yourself that you're not doing what other people are doing. Yes, and so I think that I use the rule a lot for patience. I notice that my insecurity rises up because right now, look, I did a ridiculous number of speeches last year. I travel way too much. I don't want my life to look like that. It's a champagne problem, I get it. But I also have three kids in a marriage that I love, and I really feel depleted when I'm not with them. I'm practicing patience as I make an intentional pivot in the kind of business that I'm running so that I have more of a life that I want as well. So that's one area. You know, I don't feel insecure as much as, you know, you know the term deliberate practice, right? And you know the five hour rule.

Where is that from the talent code?

Well, the deliberate practice is actually a psychological principle.

I think it was in a book.

Called the Talent Code, but yeah. Oh yeah, okay. Well, it's a psychological principle that, you know, and you know the 10,000 hours. I mean, deliberate practice is the sports. Yes, so deliberate practice is this idea that, yeah, you could do 10,000 hours at anything and become an expert at it, but the way to do it faster is to deliberate, to do deliberate practice, which means you're practicing with the intention of improving and there's a feedback loop. Yeah, so 2,000 hours as opposed to 10,000. Correct. Like, for example, if you want to become an expert at guitar, learn scales. Don't just sit there for 10, 000 hours and play the same song. If you learn scales, you get the finger dexterity and the muscle memory and.

The neuro pathway development.

Yes.

I saw your guitar over there. I saw your guitar. You know, I always wanted to play.

Guitar, but instead, I forced my three children to learn.

That's good. You just enjoy it. You just watch them. My brother's, you know, the number one jazz violinist in the world. What?

Yeah.

And so I grew up watching the most incredible. Now is he built like you too?

He used to be even like more jacked. They used to call him the Incredible Hulk of violin because he was just.

Like, wow, snap the thing in half.

He would, he would slam like Jimi Hendrix style.

Yeah.

But now he's leaned up a bunch actually. And so he's, he's incredible. So I used to just be all awestruck by his gifts. And it was unbelievable his skill. And so I learned guitar. I taught myself when I was 18 just because I was like, I have to know something. you know, in terms of music. That's pretty much. I can barely, you know, I'm like.

A hack, but, you know, at least I can do something. So, yeah. So, I'm kind of in this mode of improving myself, and I'll give you one more thing that I'm working on. So, I kind of think about my life and my work in three buckets. So, we got this bucket here, we got this bucket, and we got this bucket. And so, when you think about your business or you think about your passion or you think about work, I think about, okay, what do I need to do in terms of how much time and what actions do I need to take in order to develop the skills? so that I can perform the work. So there's the deliberate practice that goes into practicing your skill and your mastery. Skill mastery.

Yep.

And your competency.

Yep.

Mastery. So that when it comes time to actually deliver the work, whether that's selling or standing on a stage or writing a book or talking to people or selling real estate or whatever it is that may be your passion, deliver. This is the one I neglected last year. this bucket is what are you doing to personally develop yourself so that you are the most capable, fulfilled and satisfied human being? So that when you show up to do your competency and your skills and the delivery that you as the human being are able to do that.

Yeah.

And so I've been spending a lot more time consuming content, reading books, watching, you know, your incredible show and learning from other people. And I think that one of the traps that we entrepreneurs get into is we, I was feeling last year anyway, like I was on a treadmill and when I wasn't looking, somebody was coming by and turning up the speed. And I was only in this alley.

And increasing the, the hills.

Yes, and so, and if you're my age, you need like a diaper when somebody does that, you're on a treadmill and a leash to keep you attached to it.

Exactly.

So.

I've been focusing a lot on this, and it's been interesting, 'cause you and I were talking earlier too about you going to India and some of the stuff that you learned in terms of the different states to be in, and I use one where I pay attention to where I'm feeling depleted versus where I'm energized. and here's the thing, you can be doing things that are really hard, that energize you. You can be doing things that are really scary, that energize you. The same is true with things that deplete you. There are things in your life that are really easy for you. There are people that you hang out with, by the way, that you've been hanging out with for years, but they deplete you. And so I've been starting to become more deliberate about how I distance myself from things that deplete me and how I spend more time and energy either doing or pushing myself to do those things that actually energize me. And this gets back to your message around passion, right? And that the art and the skill of building a life that is guided by the things that you're passionate about.

Yeah, that's great.

So what is something that you're worried about or feeling insecure about or that is the next big thing for you? I know you got a big book launch coming.

Yeah, that's one thing. I mean, I'm talking about a topic on masculinity. Actually, before, where are you going?

Are you gonna do something with my.

I'll mention that. But here's the thing also I wanted to add, if this is, you know, mastering the skills.

Yeah.

And this is working on it or executing it.

Right.

If we, you know, just to emphasize this, I was great at these two things as well my entire life. And I would achieve all my goals by executing the Mm-. But I'd never had the fulfillment and I was always lacking the inner peace or the inner, I don't know, it was just never enough. And so I never filled this up. I always went back to the mastering more skills and taking more action and mastering skills and just feel like it was never enough.

I hear you.

I never filled up this cup.

Right.

And once I started to, you know, about four years ago, opening up about a lot of the different traumas that I went through as a child, and just like growing up, you know, being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know, my brother being in prison, you know, parents getting divorced like almost every kid, it was, and being bullied, you know, just everything, and being dyslexic and being in the bottom of my grade and all these things growing up all through school, not being able to read and write, I never filled this up. And so I was just so driven to prove people wrong, learn the skills, master something and show people that they're wrong about me. and it was just never enough. It was just this endless cycle of never enough. No matter how big, how much money I made, it was never enough until I started to work on this cup and this bucket, and then everything shifted. So it's important that we do that as much as these two.

Yes, and I know sometimes that message falls flat. When you're committed to providing that kind of content for people and you can get focused on creating it and not actually being somebody that is consuming enough of it. And so that's a huge change that I made funny enough on the male side. One of the biggest shifts that happened in my marriage with Chris is we had always been kind of even Steven partners, both with the parenting and with the finances and supporting one another except for that phase where I was a real bitch and I was like saying, you cannot follow your dreams. That was all fear talking. One of the coolest things that's happened for us is that as my speaking career took off organically and the world basically said, Lady, you need to teach the world this message and we don't care how much you're gonna kick and scream about it. We're gonna keep putting you on stages and the phone's gonna keep ringing and we need to know, but people need to know about this. My husband had always, like you, youngest of three boys, dad was crazy successful, wasn't around because he traveled all the time. Chris had always had this, thing in his mind that he hoped that they would grow the restaurant business and he would have this big kind of, you know, liquidity event. And then he could take off four years and teach and be with our kids. And it just so turned out that it didn't work out that way in the restaurant business, but my career went like this. And so subsequently, we wouldn't be able to have the marriage or the family if Chris weren't running Point at home.

Right.

And what's so cool about it? Well, yeah, but what's so cool is for an entire year he beat himself up about it. And then he got sober. He went to a yoga intensive training. He's now a certified yoga instructor.

He has a tractor.

He runs the Booster Club for our high school sports. He created a triathlon in our town that's one of the biggest fundraisers for the town. The guy is like, found himself and his strength. And we've realized something in our marriage where he's just not driven in terms of the financial piece or the, you know, in the way that I am. And part of the conflict in our relationship for a long time was me putting those societal demands on him, him feeling the obligation. And so the thing that's also been really cool is that when you start to discover the courage to speak what's true for you, it's amazing how things shake out and fall into place and it gives other people the courage to explore and figure out what's true for them. Because the fact is, he is a way better, way better parent than I am, especially for the ages that our kids are.

And.

It'S, and you know, I have this saying where I feel like every phase of your life requires a different you. And the phase that I'm in right now and the kind of parent that I am is, will be totally different when our daughter heads off to college next year. Different phase of my life is gonna require a different phase of me. And so it's been so killer to see us step into this different phase where he is so happy and self-expressed and, you know, I was reminded of it 'cause you talked about this project and I wanna hear more about it, about what you're working on because he's now launching this tiny little retreat for guys. He's a big Knowles guy, so they're going off into the mountains and really exploring. Success is one thing. What does it actually mean to be satisfied with your life on your own terms and who you are? And so he's in this really cool inquiry about what does satisfaction with your life really look like when you take full responsibility for what truly matters to you?

Powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah, fulfillment. I mean, we can all learn how to be successful. If we can't be fulfilled, then it's a failure, you know? Success of failure without fulfillment. So, yeah, I, you know, the book I'm talking about is, it's called the Mask of Masculinity, and it's tapping into really what it means to be a man and redefining the new man as opposed to, like, what society has put on us.

Like, beyond you guys wearing skinny jeans.

Exactly. Yes, exactly. Yes. So, you know, I'm excited about it. I guess I'm a little... Has it been confronting? Yeah, I mean, because in every chapter I break down myself and all the mistakes I've made as a man and.

Like, you know... Now are you in a relationship? I am, yeah. You are?

How long have you been? About three years, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

With a break in between, but yeah.

With the same person? Yes, okay. So, it's been a lot of growth for me. Yeah, a lot of scary, you know, uncomfortable conversations, fears that I've you know, 5-4-3-2-1 right into it and it addressed it. And, you know, I'm still figuring it out. I don't have all the answers still. I think the reason I love doing this show is because I interview and connect with the most inspiring people in the world who I want to learn from and see, you know, how I can be better in the areas that they're strong in. So for me, it's a selfish reason doing this show to like take on so much great information and say, oh, how can I apply that to my life? And then how can I share that with the world?

Julie Schatz: you: know, it's, it's amazing. And, you know, one of the things that you said to me when we first started is, what do you want to get out of this? And I talked about how I, I just want to spread the idea that you can change your life in five seconds. And I want to spread the idea that you can't control how you feel, but you can always choose how you.

Think and what you do.

And one of the things that's so cool is that, you know, you and I are both outcome thinkers. So we think about the outcome that we want, and then we figure out how am I going to get there? and when you go through life like that, it gives you so much mastery over how you're gonna behave because you're thinking about the things that you wanna cause.

You never truly learned how to love yourself in your own skin. And you started this daily ritual, this habit of high-fiving yourself in the mirror.

Yeah.

I mean, you've lived a pretty full life right now. But you feel like really you've never truly learned how to love yourself, but now you feel like you know how to?

Yes, I do.

Why did you not know how to love yourself in the first place?

Oh, that's a big question. I think that most of us are not taught how to love ourselves just for being alive.

For existing.

For existing, thank you.

It's always like we have to accomplish something.

Correct.

Then we can get love.

Yes, it's the same thing with happiness. Like you're chasing it and you think that if you achieve something, you're going to get it. And you also, or at least I felt the most loved when I was little, when I was achieving something. And, you know, I think that most parents kind of fall into this camp. And it's really interesting to write a book about this and sort of trace back how we go from being little teeny babies that would crawl up to a mirror and put our hands up and kiss ourselves and love the sight of ourselves to being a self-loathing adult that stands in front of a mirror and either ignores or criticizes your very existence. And I believe that a lot of this has to do with the fact that so much of what you learn as a kid is if you do what I tell you to do, then I'll like you. then I'll love you. And so much of your existence becomes complying, fitting in, not making people angry. You learn how to sort of go in and out of spaces, belong to groups, make sure people like you, and you stop focusing on how you were born, which is looking in a mirror and liking yourself. So my formula for being somebody that was worthy of love is, well, if I'm all this stuff, then I'm lovable. If this person over here that I love loves me back, then I'm lovable. If somebody likes me, then I'm lovable. Notice where all the sources of love were coming from? Outside. But I never really understood. How do you learn how to put yourself first? How do you learn how to love yourself, Louis? How do you do that? We know we need to. But the question is how?

So how'd you learn how to unlearn it and then I guess relearn how to love yourself?

Okay, so you know this is kind of my brand of advice. It's got to be incredibly stupid on the surface.

Yeah.

It's got to be so simple, it's really implausible that it works. And once you start unpacking it, it has to have eight crazy bananas amount of scientific proof and real life proof in people's lives to prove why it works. So I'll tell you the story first behind the high five habit. Because I did not set out and go like, okay, I've written the five second rule book. I need to come up with another five. I have been toiling away with what book to write for nearly five years. So it's been five years since I've had a book in print. And I had this random morning. where there's a lot going on in my life. I'm not going to get into it because it's a boring story, but I was just having a really hard time in my life. And I woke up, got out of bed. I made my bed like I always do. I walked into the bathroom. I'm standing there brushing my teeth, and I catch my reflection in the mirror. I start then cataloging all of the things that are wrong with my appearance. I'm like, your gray hair is coming in, you've got stripes on your neck, one of your boobs is lower than the other, you know, you look exhausted. And then as soon as you have a negative thought or a self-criticism, it's sort of like lint in a dryer. Once you start collecting it, it just keeps on collecting it. So now I'm thinking not about how horrible I look or how tired I look. Now I start thinking about all the stuff I need to do. I start going, oh, my gosh, I got up a little too late, and I've got a zoom call in eight minutes. I don't even Braun yet, the dog needs to be walked. And I could feel my energy going down. Like I just felt the weight of the world on my shoulders. Overwhelmed, uncertain. You know, it doesn't even matter what was going on in my life at that time, because I think it's a universal feeling to feel overwhelmed by your life at times.

Yes.

And so here I am, a motivational speaker.

Unmotivated.

Unmotivated, uncaffeinated, no brawn, standing there in my underwear with my dog at my feet. I don't know what came over me. But as cheesy as it sounds.

I.

Just raised my hand and gave the tired, haggard woman in the mirror A high five. And it didn't change my life like right then and there, but something shifted. Like I felt a little lighter. I felt like it wasn't alone. I felt like, okay, you know, this moment in your life is hard, but you can do this, Mel. And I went on with my day. So the second day, I woke up, and this is when things started to really kind of churn in my mind. The first thing that I noticed was this. So I wake up, Louis, and I make my bed. And I realized I was looking forward to that moment in the mirror where I was gonna see myself. Now look, I'm 52 years old. I will probably have a hot flash during the middle of this interview at some point. I'm a lot older than you.

Just don't need lobster.

Oh yeah, I know. I had a really allergic tragic reaction the last time we were together. Wow. But I have spent the first 45 years of my life either criticizing the woman in the mirror or ignoring her. And this was the first time that I could remember that I was actually looking forward to seeing myself. Sort of like, you know, when I was coming here today, you and I are very good friends. As I was walking into the building, I'm feeling excited to see you. And it wasn't like I was feeling excited to see myself. Like I'm not like, yeah, because I got a lot of crap going on in my life. But I felt a little bit like I'm about to see a friend. And so that second morning, I high-fived myself again. And again, I feel something shift. I feel just a little lightness in the mood and I go on with my day. So the third morning, I do it again.

And.

Again, like lightness, and so I keep doing it, keep doing it, a couple weeks go by, and now I'm starting to feel a little bit of momentum. And I'm really enjoying it. I have no idea what the hell is going on.

I haven't even done this in front.

Of my husband, Chris yet, because let's be honest, standing in front of a mirror.

High five yourself.

Yeah, come on, how pathetic does it get? You're really, you're like that bad. So I snap a photo of myself. I've got my retainer in, I got Bed Head, like I'm not looking glamorous. I did not expect this to be the photo that would ignite a movement. And within an hour, I posted on my story on Instagram, within an hour, at least 100 people tagged me all over the world. People high-fiving the mirror with their kids, people on a submarine high-fiving it in the military, people, MMA, like just, and I thought, okay, wait a minute. Maybe I'm not the only one. that needs a little boost in the morning. Maybe I'm not the only one who feels alone. Maybe I'm not the only one that is missing a sense of encouragement and control and confidence in an overwhelming moment in my life. Maybe there's something here. And then the messages started to come in. Whoa, Mel, like I have been using this for five days. This woman wrote to us, she's had body dysmorphia for 20 years, has not been able to look at herself in the mirror. Five days of doing this high five and she said, I can look at myself and I even see beyond the body, I see the person. And I can grin. We had a woman who wrote to us who said that she was in a domestic violence shelter. She had escaped a very abusive relationship. She had seen me talking at our friend Jamie Kern Lima's event, she started doing the high five thing. She DMs us and she says that, you know, I have childhood trauma. I've just been in a physically abusive relationship. I've lost everything. I'm in a domestic violence shelter. What this high five in the mirror is teaching me is that I still have myself. And so that was when I said, I got to figure out what's going on. And I started to unpack the research and the research around this simple ritual. I love that you called it a ritual because I want people to habit stack this with brushing their teeth. This is so life-changing. It's so simple. The science here is like, you can't believe it. And once I unpack it, you're gonna be like, I can't believe how cool this thing is.

So, what's the science say?

Okay, so the science.

Let's start with the first thing. So, the first thing is that when you first try it, okay, you will not be able to raise your hand and high five yourself and be like, you suck, Mel, or Today is going to be terrible. And there's a reason for that. And the reason is that for your entire life, you have given other people high fives. So, when you give a high five or you receive one, what is a high five? Just the gesture, what is this communicate if we do this to each other.

Nice job. Good work.

You're doing amazing.

Yeah.

Keep it up.

Yeah. I believe in you. I love you.

Let's go. If you blow a shot, you got to get back in the game. A high fives, like, Shake It Off. You can win.

Yes.

And so all of that lifetime of high-fiving other people and the messaging associated with it is programmed right here in your subconscious brain. There's a field of study called Neurobics, which is about Neurobics. I didn't make that up. It's interesting. Physical movement plus new neurological activity. When you marry an unexpected physical movement with new neurological activity, it's the fastest way to forge new neural pathways in your brain.

Okay.

Okay. We know the example. You've covered this on your show of brushing with the wrong hand and thinking positive thoughts. And the reason why that works is because when you're brushing with the wrong hand, it's unexpected, your brain doesn't expect it. So instead of drifting off about the fact that you need to walk the dog, you have to focus so your prefrontal cortex is engaged. You're not used to high five in your own reflection. So it's an unexpected physical movement that then activates all of the positive programming in your subconscious. So when you raise your hand and you high five your tired self, Louis. What happens is all of the messaging with this, the high five, I believe in you. I love you. I celebrate you. You got this. Keep going. Come on. It actually fuses with your freaking reflection. It's impossible to criticize yourself. Your brain won't allow it because it's not wired that way when you're making that motion. -Right.

-Isn'T that crazy? -It's hard to say you suck. You don't matter to anything.

It's hard to say you can't. You can't. And so this lifetime of positive subconscious programming associated with high-fiving other people gets fused with your own reflection in this ritual. That's just the beginning. That's just the beginning. The second thing that starts to happen that's really interesting. So we've had a ton of people do this, obviously, around the world. Super easy idea. It's spreading around the world. We start interviewing people about what's going on. this is what we notice. We notice that one of two things happen when you first try this. So here's how I want everybody to try it. You're going to go into the bathroom and do it before or after you brush your teeth. And that's important because I want you to make this a ritual that's part of your morning routine. And so we need to stack it with something you already do. And you're going to stand there for a minute and I want you to look at yourself. Now that right alone, most of us don't do. Look at yourself. and I want you to just think about the day ahead. This is based on more research. So recent studies show from the University of Florida that if you take just a minute and you set an intention about how the day is going to go, about who you're going to be, how you're going to show up, what's the one thing that kind of matters to you to really make a difference, to make progress on, if you just kind of set that intention, who am I going to be today? How am I going to show up today? Even if it's a hard day, how are you going to show up? And then you raise your hand and you seal it. Research shows just setting the intention alone changes your mood, it boosts your productivity, it increases your ability to make an impact on other people. And so when you seal it with this high five, it becomes this ritual of setting an intention for the day and also silencing the critic. and reprogramming the default setting about how you see yourself, whether or not you believe in yourself. And you leave that bathroom feeling like the wind is at your back. Now, when people do this for the first time, so you're gonna stand there tomorrow and you're gonna go, okay, Mel Robinson, Lewis, jeez, I'm just sitting here, brush my teeth, okay, this is stupid. You're gonna just start rejecting it. I guarantee you. This is the coolest stuff you're gonna have the biggest resistance to. And so for those of you that just raise your hand and do it, you're gonna immediately be like, why have I not been doing this? It feels good to be encouraged and supported.

To high vibe yourself.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Why have I not had my own back? Why do I stand here and criticize myself? Why do I allow this moment every single morning to be a moment where life takes over and I drift into autopilot. Why am I not taking this moment for me to build a partnership with myself?

Yeah.

The second group of people, and this is the larger group, right? Resisted. And this is really interesting. And the reason why you resist it and the reason why it feels weird is because you believe You're not worthy of support or celebration.

From yourself or from others?

Period.

Wow.

Why do we think we're not worthy of celebration?

Well, for people that grew up in chaotic, violent, or whatever household, it was your lived experience. I think that for many of us, we look back on our lives and the cognitive negative bias has us focus on the things that went wrong. And so you begin to tell yourself a story about your life that is basically a pyramid of all the things that you regret, of all the things that you wish had done over, of all the things that you don't like about yourself. And so you drag that with you into the bathroom every morning, and you stare at the mirror and you see somebody that has screwed up. You see somebody who's not where you're meant to be. You see somebody who doesn't have the number on the scale or the car that you wanted or the job that you had hoped for or the relationship that you had always dreamed about. And so standing there, you believe you're not worthy of support or celebration. And it's this deep belief. You know, we talk a lot in the personal development space of, oh, I'm not good enough. I actually think that's the polite thing that people say. I believe that people have a much more horrible way of talking to yourself.

Like what?

I can't say it on TV, but I can say it on the internet. I'm a piece of s***. I'm worthless. No one will ever love me. I screwed up my life. I'm a failure. I'll never amount to anything. It's too late. I'm a bad person. I think people actually say this to themselves.

They say it over and over again.

Yes.

Daily.

Yes, yes. And just like ruts on a dirt road, it starts to wear in your brain and it becomes the familiar path. And so you stand in front of the mirror and, you know, I'm telling you, raise your hand and let all that positive programming you've given to everybody else. We are amazing at celebrating everybody else. We cheer for our favorite sports teams. We buy tickets to, you know, our favorite musicians. We throw birthday parties for people. We take on extra for our colleagues, we help our family members out and our friends out. But when it comes to supporting ourselves, we don't know how to do it.

In fact, there's a lot of people.

That think it's selfish to put yourself first or that you're arrogant if you're do. I'm here to tell you it is essential to your well-being, to your fulfillment, to your happiness, all of it. So if you're feeling resistance, you're either going to feel it because you already have a deep story that you don't deserve it because of your track record, your past, because of what's happening in your life, or you're going to feel resistance because you have been trained to believe that you only deserve that kind of stuff when you're winning. Like, if I don't have that car, I don't get the high five. If I didn't get that promotion, I didn't deserve.

If I am not in a loving.

Relationship, I don't deserve to be celebrated because I'm not actually achieving or doing the things that warrant that. I'm here to tell you, I'm on a mission to make every human being realize that if you wake up in the morning and you're breathing and you're standing in front of that mirror and you have survived the stuff you have survived and you are still waking up and trying to do better, You not only deserve a high five, you need it. Because what we also know based on the research is that empowerment, support, kindness, love, celebration, it is the single most motivating force on the planet. Tough love is a bunch of baloney. What really fuels people, particularly when you're going through challenge is feeling celebrated, seen and supported. And the research bears it out.

A lot of people run away. They avoid conflict. They say it's just easier. But if running away and avoiding conflict continues to create a pattern where you feel invisible and your boundaries are tromped on, that's a pattern. And, you know, here's the other thing about patterns. Running away and being quiet might have saved you when you were little. Because if you were quiet and out of the room, you didn't get hit, you didn't get yelled at, you were out of harm's way. So when you were little, it was a genius pattern because it protected you. But the issue for adults is that again, we walk around with the patterns that we created when we were eight years old in different situations than we are now. And now we are completely a robot to these patterns.

I love that you had a great tweet the other day about boundaries because as individuals, both of us who try to help people break boundaries, try to break their mindset that's holding them back, try to get them to become greater than their past, all these different things, you wrote a post that said, your boundaries are there to serve you as you grow, so are your boundaries. What boundaries do you need to set up in order to help yourself grow. Why are boundaries important when we also have the mindset of like, you should be breaking your boundaries all the time?

Well, I wouldn't say that break that breaking your like, I don't call the obstacles or I call them excuses. And so I, I think the hardest boundaries honestly are the ones that set with yourself to not drink during the week to not tolerate the bulldozing and immediately apologize and try to do better, to not waste hours on social media, like all the things that the small promises you need to make in order to create boundaries with your old patterns and your excuses. To me, the hardest boundaries to set are those with myself. I, what was the question again?

You know, breaking, we encourage people to break boundaries. You know, they feel like they're limited, but you talk about your boundaries are there to serve you. So obviously it's a different type of boundary, but, you know, yeah.

So, so here's the thing.

What boundaries do you need to help yourself to protect yourself and which ones do you need to grow past that are holding you back?

I think that the definition with boundaries that has helped me the most is understanding the boundaries are for me, they're not for you. Mm-. And the single biggest mistake that we make in any relationship, particularly romantic ones, but also work related ones, is we do not express what we need.

That's so true. My girlfriend was telling me this the other day. She's like, I really want you to tell me what you need and when you want it and feel comfortable and confident saying it. And for me, I go back into trauma of past, like when I used to say what I want need, and it didn't get met, it would, I'd have to get let down, my expectations, I'd get hurt. So I was like, screw it, I'll just do everything on my own, which leads to resentment or whatever else.

Yeah, how's that working out for you?

It's like, so, so, so, Louis, that's an example of eight year old Louis created a pattern that worked when you were eight.

Yeah.

But now that you're in your 30s and in a relationship that you really care about, you've got to identify the pattern and break it and replace it. And the good news is any pattern can be replaced. Change isn't personal. It just feels personal. Change is just about identifying patterns and replacing them with new ones. That's it. And it'll take a little while because they're encoded in your nervous system and your default is to just do it yourself. But you have to, you cannot as a rule punish other people for you didn't communicate. So I'll give you the perfect example. So Chris and I have been married for 24 years. And when I was before the talk show and I made my living mostly by, you know, doing 100 speeches a year, I would be on the road 150 days a year. And when I would come home, there was always something that pissed me off.

Like what? Like, oh, the trash is taken out, the clothes are here, or is it something else?

Oh, no, I'm way worse than that. Are you kidding? I would walk in after being gone for five or six days, and there on the island in the kitchen was a vase that had dead flowers, the ones that I had bought for myself a week before. And it was as if everybody in my family had been walking around the island for six days as if there was some dead. flower sculpture in the middle of the island. And so I would come home and first of all, the only person that's really excited to see me is a dog. And my family did sit me down at one point and they said, you, know you realize when you're not here we have our own lives. So you don't put your lives on hold while, you know, for us and we're not putting our lives on hold. So it's not that we're not excited to see you, but we're not organizing our whole lives around when mom comes home.

Right. To be like the dog. To be like the dog excited and running up and jumping in your arms and kissing you. Yeah.

Yeah, no, no, they don't, but I think that's cool because that means that they're independent and doing their own thing.

They've set boundaries.

They've set boundaries with me.

Perfect.

So for probably six months, I would get pissy and I would walk in and put my bags down and I'd grab the flowers and I demonstratively, how.

Many times has everyone done this?

Throw them out loudly, like, are you hearing your communication? Yeah, I'm getting my communication. Just throwing these dead flowers out, communicate to you that you should buy me flowers. Like, I'm not saying that, but that's what the body language is, right? How dare I have been off. I've been in four cities and then.

You become a mark.

Like, oh, I'm just disgusting when I tell this story.

But this is it.

This is like, so. Well, I see you've got some lovely flowers behind you that look alive, so.

That'S good to see. I want their slice.

So.

So I do love flowers. So finally, I just said to Chris, you know what would make me feel amazing is if when I came home, you had just bought some flowers.

Just go to the grocery, just when.

You'Re at the grocery store, it doesn't, you don't have to order, like I'm saying, buy the five dollar pack of half dead tulips. Just something, okay? And then he said, why? And this is the most important part of expressing and look, you don't have to give an explanation if you're trying to cut off a toxic person, but if you want to express boundaries with somebody because you want them to understand you more deeply, give them the why. I said, because it makes me think that you are excited for me to come home. and that you knew I was coming because I'm starting to feel forgotten. So underneath the anger, Louis.

Wow.

Was hurt and feeling like it didn't matter. And so I'll be darn, I walk in and there they are. And I literally feel so seen. And, you know, the other thing to do is, and, like, another thing for us, too, is, like, Chris and I, I learned on my talks. Chris was on it and we did a show all about men and what men think and the secrets they keep.

Oh, wow.

I learned for the first time that my husband prefers to have sex in the morning.

I get a lot of men do.

I didn't know that.

Well, see, I didn't like it because.

I don't like bad breath in the morning.

My girlfriend says the same thing. My girlfriend says the same thing.

But I'm like, why didn't you tell me? And the reason why is because we're so funky about asking for what we need. We're so afraid of getting rejected or denied or whatever or being vulnerable in that moment. But the greatest thing that you can do is ask for what you need. Your friends need to know what you need. Your lover needs to know what you need. Your kids need to know what you need because then they can show up in a way where you feel seen and then you're gonna and they're gonna feel incredible.

Yeah.

And you can't expect people to know what you need or then to know what you need by communicating it through anger and this frustration of, you know, whatever, like he's throwing away the flowers. That way of communicating also is extremely unhealthy. I'm, I'm the blame there as well. And I think it's, that's not a healthy way of, of creating love within a relationship, whether it's a friend, a family member or a loved one.

But here's the thing. You want to know why you, let.

Me, let me let everybody off the hook.

Yeah, because here's the reason why this happens and this is what I want everyone to know what we're up against so Louis as you and I sit here talking about the flower thing, right? And you got to communicate your boundaries as we're having this conversation We are present and we're using the thinking part.

Of our brain.

When I walk into the kitchen, I am not thinking I am in the emotional traumatic nervous system robot part of my body. And that's where your feelings and your triggers take over.

Yeah.

And if you can start to identify the bulldozing, the anger, all that stuff, you will literally change your whole life by just changing one or two patterns. The other thing, and you know, you asked me about the talk show, the single greatest gift of the talk show content wise is something called the word wheel. So I don't have it right here.

But if you Google word wheel or.

Wheel of emotions, you will find that if you ask somebody, name as many emotions as you can. Most people can name three, happy, sad, angry. There's literally like 113 of them from disgusted to hopeless to, and if you start with a core, this thing allows you to start with a core emotion and go out. because back to the flower example, I was expressing anger. That's not what I was feeling. I was feeling invisible and forgotten. And so the word wheel is something that we used several times a week to help people go from the thing that they are expressing to communicating what you're feeling, which is a lot like the work that you wrote about in your book around wearing masks, getting to the root of the core emotion you're feeling but not expressing. And that gets back to the pause thing. What have I seen that I am busy, that I am so... Have you ever wanted something so bad that you become paralyzed?

Yeah.

I so want to end the mental pain and suffering that people feel. I so want to help people heal their minds and to have the power to create a better future. And I get so overwhelmed by how much I want to see that happen in the world that sometimes I become paralyzed. And what happens for me a lot of the time is I feel insignificant. and my ability to move the needle on that.

Yeah, because there's billions of people who are struggling.

Yeah.

And it's like, what do you do to make the max maximum use of your time to make the maximum impact? And also create resources to create more impact. I get to.

I yell at my husband to buy me flowers. That's what I do.

I get to feel. Is this wheel of emotions? Is this something you created or is this something else?

No, it's in the public domain.

Wow, that's cool.

That's really cool.

Now, I think I mentioned this to you. I've had some, I guess I've had some paralysis or just a lack of focus around completion of my book proposal I've been working on for about a year as well. About, it's like a unite. Exactly. About, you know, eliminating self-doubt. I think self-doubt and mental challenges kind of are, Cousins maybe of each other, family members in some way. And I think self-doubt, I think self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I believe when we don't believe in ourselves and our abilities, eventually we're going to sabotage something. And I hear you talk about confidence a lot. A lot of your social media posts are about this. You say it a lot better than I do. But what do you think are the reasons we doubt ourselves or what do you think is the steps to gaining more confidence in ourselves? when we doubt?

So I always thought that confidence.

Was.

A thing that you feel. And I have come to prefer that confidence is something that you do. Meaning that, you know, a lot of people thought a lot of people like to think, okay, well, you're going to feel confident first. And then once you feel to be confident, then you'll take the action. And that's wrong. It's not a chicken or an egg in my mind. I think what happens is you have to force yourself in a moment of self-doubt to do something. And when you see yourself taking action, the confidence follows. So I have created my own definition of confidence. which is confidence is the willingness to try. And you display the willingness to try when you take action. It's a lot like the relationship between courage and fear. You can't have courage without fear. Courage isn't the absence of fear. It's acting in the face of it. And confidence isn't the absence of self-doubt. It's being willing to try even though you doubt yourself.

That's beautiful.

That's going in the book. I'm quoting you in the book.

Make it baby, make it your own.

I love that. That's powerful.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, I'm sure you probably, we're very similar in the sense that we do a lot and we build confidence because we would take action. You and law school and public defending and all these different things you've done, which like, okay, I'm afraid, but let me go do it and do it. And now, okay, I'm getting better. Now I feel more confident. It's not just, it's not just let me learn something or let me read a book. And now I'm confident in a skill that I haven't applied. I must apply it and fail a bunch and realize, oh, okay, I've gotten better. I have fallen over and over, and now I'm standing and I'm actually doing.

Okay, and I'm doing even better now. Let me build my confidence. So yes, and look, you know, here's the thing. I think that preparation and studying something so that you feel like you have an understanding of something can be an important first thing that you try. But don't let the studying of something become the reason why you don't actually take the next action.

Well, I need to get my master's. I need to go to a business school. I need to go to whatever and then never actually do it. When you can start doing something much sooner before needing to have all the credentials necessarily.

Yes, there's very few things.

Except for like being a doctor. Okay, maybe don't do surgery.

Correct.

Yeah, yeah, chemist, a doctor, something that requires you to actually have accreditation and specialized knowledge, an engineer, whatever. But most things that you will master in life will not be mastered by reading a book. You cannot learn how to ride a bike. by reading about it. You have to get your ass on that seat and find your balance. That's how you find balance, is by falling. Because balance is somewhere in between not being on the bike and falling, or being on the bike and falling, rather.

That's beautiful. I could go on for another few hours, but I want to ask you a few more questions and shift for a second, and then try to wrangle us in at some point, because I could talk to you forever. but we are in the middle of a powerful moment of time, like you said, with the pause of COVID and now just everything with Black Lives Matter and the, I guess, the race for social justice and the urgency for social justice. You were covering, I believe, when you were at CNN, the George Zimmerman trial about the killing of Trayvon Martin. Is that correct?

Yeah, so when I, I was a paid legal commentator for CNN for over three years and I covered Trayvon Martin's murder, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Freddie Gray. The list goes on Michael Brown, Ferguson, the list goes on and on and on and on. In fact, when the first wave of Black Lives Matter protests happened, I was on set at CNN with Sunny Hostin and Sally Kohn and Margaret Hoover, and at the end of our segment, we all put our hands up in solidarity.

And support with Black Lives Matter and almost got fired for making a political statement.

Yep, on CNN. And so.

I.

What was your big case?

Is.

Go ahead.

I was just gonna ask, you know, what were your big lessons learned from those early cases as we're now kind of seeing it come to fruition and people talking about those a lot even more now. What did you really learn about racism, about social injustice, about systemic racism or the facts about certain things? Because people can express emotion around topics, but then you're diving into more statistics and facts. So what did you truly learn as an analyst?

Well, and you know, I think that it goes even further back to being a public defender in New York City.

You're experiencing this all the time.

Legal aid. First of all, that white people don't have a clue what it's like to deal with the racism that you face.

If you're Black in America.

We will never understand the stress, the bigotry, the bias, the fear. and the ways in which systematic racism, which impacts every level of society.

Whether.

We'Re talking about medical access or we're talking about the way schools are funded or redlining or voter access or it just goes on or police brutality or the fact that an unarmed black man is four times more likely to be killed by the police. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. The fact that if you have an ethnic sounding name, Louis, And somebody gets your resume, you're more likely to not even get an interview with identical qualifications. So it goes on and on and on. So the first thing that I will say is that this moment in time feels different.

Why?

I was outraged when Trayvon Martin was murdered. I was Outraged when Freddie Gray was choked to death, I was and said, I can't breathe the same words. I was horrified and heartbroken watching that surveillance tape when the cops rolled up on Tamir Rice, who I think was 12, playing in a park with a little toy gun with his friends when the cops killed him. I just, I, and I don't want to make this, this is not a police versus, there's a huge need for police reform, huge need, and criminal justice reform, and issues of mass incarceration. But this does feel different. And the reason why this feels different is because of the diversity of voices that are joining in the fight for change. and the size and global nature of the marches and the collective nature of this. So I feel hopeful there is a tremendous amount of work to do. And I really love the work of Professor Ibram Kendi and all of his research around anti-racism. And I do agree with him that this is Got to be looked at as a policy issue, that there are policies that keep a racist system in place. And until we change policy and system systems, we do not have a chance to eradicate racism and bigotry and violence against black people. And we have got to.

Look at.

Policy on every level. local, state, federal, everything. You know, the biggest insight that I had, though, being a CNN analyst, was personal. And I'm kind of embarrassed to admit.

This, but it is what it is.

So I remember sitting on the set and we were, like, in between shows. And one of my very dear friends, Joey Jackson, who is also a legal analyst, he's still at CNN. I am no longer at CNN. We were sitting there talking and we have kids the same age and Joey and I are very, very good friends and his son had gotten into a fantastic school and we were still waiting for to hear, you know, whether or.

Not our daughter or where our daughter was going to get in and I'm like, oh my God, Joey, he got in.

And so we were talking about and.

I said, are you so excited?

And he paused and he said, yeah, but I'm really nervous. I said, nervous? What are you nervous about? And it was a school in the South.

Mm-.

And he said, I'm really nervous to have our son go down to the Carolinas. Here he is, you know, a black kid who grew up in New York City.

And I'm nervous.

And it was the first time, Louis, after decades of talking about these issues, thinking about these issues, that I felt.

This.

Like here personally, because it was.

The first time that it dawned on.

Me in a deep, soul-crack open kind of way that this person that I.

Love and adore.

Has to deal with shit that Chris and I would never even, it wouldn't even occur to us. And that was the moment that I think in my bones, I started to understand what people meant by privilege. That it's not just what Warren Buffett said in that video that's gone viral about his success and how part of his success is that his mother was white and the womb that he was in was white and that opened doors that would not have been open for him had it had been otherwise. But it was not, you know, this idea that, yeah, there's the, Fact that because of your status as being white heterosexual, you know, college like on and on and on you're ahead when it you talk about the starting line But it was also this idea that holy shit like the type of things I.

Stress about.

I don't even like Joey and his his wife think about totally different things.

That's not fair.

Yeah, their anxiety is different than mine. I because of racism. And then that started much deeper conversations. I remember talking with Sunny Hostin, who's now on the View, when Trayvon Martin was murdered and how she wanted her son to cut the hoodies off his thing. And I kept thinking, I wouldn't have to ask Oakley to do that. We haven't had to have the talk with our son about being pulled over. And so that was the beginning of me starting to really understand to the best anybody can, and we can't if you're white, how this is an issue that it just doesn't leave. You know, my kids came, you know, my kids and look, anti-racism work is something we're in the personal development business. And as far as I'm concerned, anti-racism work is something that every human being has to do in order to continue to develop yourself as a better human being.

Mm-.

And that it's a lifetime of work and learning and listening. And I know that when, remember that when the black square thing happened on Instagram, my kids were like, should we post? Should we not look? What should we do? I don't want to. And they didn't want to do the wrong thing. And I looked at them and I said, you know, guys, here's what I want you to under consider. You know how you're feeling all stressed out? about what the right thing to do is around racism. Imagine what it feels like to worry.

About racism all day, every day, because you're black.

Like even worrying about posting the right thing is a form of privilege. And so I said, the worst thing you can do right now is stay silent. Post something. Say something. We are in the middle of the largest civil rights movement of our generation. And history is not going to be Rewritten on this one. We have it on video. And so you will know who spoke out and who didn't. You will know what side of history you are on. And you may not know what to say, but for God's sakes, don't say, don't stay silent, because it can. Your silence cannot be misinterpreted. It's very loud. And so even if you don't know what to say, start listening, repost things that you're finding helpful. I think that, you know, I take the influence that we have, having a platform the size that we do, with great responsibility. It was a huge honor and a huge responsibility to try to unpack some of the biggest criminal justice and social cases on a platform as large as CNN. It is a huge responsibility and an honor to have a platform where you can hopefully lift other voices up, particularly Black voices, and you can also share what you're learning on the never-ending journey to be a better human being. because that's what it's going to take. It's going to take everybody doing the work to be anti-racist because the truth is, you know, and this is why I love, I mean, I love so many of the experts, but it really resonates for me what Professor Kendi is saying about how every action or action in action is either racist or anti-racist, everything you say or the silence that you choose. could be racist or anti-racist. And look, there are probably things that I've said during this that might be deemed racist. I'll learn from it. But the one thing that I'm not going to do is stay silent. I'd rather make a mistake. I'd rather learn something. And now is a time to speak up. And that's because of the kind of influence I want to make in the world. Policy takes time to change. And policy takes a lot of smart people focused on solving policy and systematic problems. And, you know, I think all change starts in your own heart. Then it starts in your home by how you talk to your children and how you talk to your family. Then it trickles out to your workplace and to the community. And so if you really want to see this happen, you have to get involved. in local politics and who's getting elected to be the sheriff and the DA. You have to get involved in state politics. You have to get involved in national politics. And, you know, I think that if what I'm optimistic about is I think there is such a groundswell of people talking about the need for change. that maybe just maybe this groundswell is going to fuel the next administration coming in and focusing on solving some of these problems. But I also am one of these people, Louis, who believe that one of the smartest things that we could do is invest in education. That when you have a school system, national policy, that is almost entirely funded by property taxes, of course you're gonna have tremendous inequities. When you have a militarized police force post 9/11 and we've moved away from a community policing model, of course we're gonna have major issues. And so there's a lot of things that started to happen on the back of centuries of policies that were racist keeping this structure in place that have now hopefully we've reached a tipping point. I don't have all the answers. I know that I can just focus on what I can do. Learn as much as I can, listen as much as I can, share what I'm learning, elevate other people's voices on my platform and at work and in the kind of content that I'm doing and in the kind of research that I'm doing. and vote for change. And that's what you can do. And of course, get out there in March and check in on your black friends. And don't expect your black friends to teach you. Get Google out, start buying people's books, teach yourself. That's what you can do if you're concerned about this.

Yes, I love it. This is powerful. I want to wrap it up with my final two questions I ask at the end. Imagine it's your last day on earth, hypothetically, and you've achieved everything you want. in your life. You've accomplished all your dreams. You finally don't need the approval of others. You aren't in scarcity mindset anymore. You're doing all these things that you want to do. But it's your last day and you've got to take all your body of work with you. Every message you put out in the world, every tweet, every book, every video, every virtual reality thing you do in the future, whatever it is, it's got to go with you to the next place. But you get to be behind three things you know to be true. from all the lessons you've learned that you would share with the world. What would you say of those three truths for you?

5-4-3-2-1 motivation is garbage. You're one decision away from a totally different life.

I love that.

We're always one decision away from a different life. And it can be changed and it changes in a moment of decision. It doesn't have to take years to decide. You can decide now.

Well, most of us take years trying to decide, but it actually happens in five seconds. And look, I mean, one decision to just get out of bed and try to get out of bed fast enough so that my anxiety wouldn't hit it, it changed my life because it sent me on a different trajectory. And I think if you look backwards, at any of the kind of pivotal moments of your life, there was a moment where you made a decision. And it's through your life is a sum of the decisions that you make. And staying silent is a decision. Avoiding people is a decision. Thinking about things is a decision. And when you realize that you do have the power to change things, because you have the power to make a decision, you have the power to change.

The decisions that you've been making.

You have the power in any moment to take control, and you take control by making very conscious decisions about what.

You'Re going to do next.

That's the secret to everything.

About that.

You've got something to offer somebody.

But the minute you start to say.

I matter, I'm a good person, I'm smart, I can contribute. something amazing to my company.

If you keep saying it, you see.

When you give it up, you accept it's never gonna happen.

And that's such a shame, because it could.