"DO THIS To Achieve ANY GOAL In Life TODAY!" | Rich Roll & Lewis Howes

It's not about quitting your job. You don't even have to take a risk. Like if you have this dream that you've been harboring for a decade, but you haven't done anything about it, I.

Think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness. Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes.

A lot of people know your story about how you became overweight, you couldn't walk up the stairs without having to catch your breath, you were eating junk food all the time, and you made a decision to change your life and really go down this path of veganism, eating more mindfully, training like a machine for ultra marathons, things like that. We've interviewed a lot of the same people or people in the same space. I'm curious, what do you think is the reason why most people give up on their goals or will never achieve their goals? Because you were at a point where things got bad and you made a decision to shift and create goals and then stuck to them over decades. Why do you think most people create a goal and then they can't achieve them?

I think the answer to that is complicated. I can say just based on my own experience that achieving a goal is a lot easier when you're in a lot of pain. And the pain that you're in exceeds the fear of the unknown. You know what I mean? Like you're in so much pain that you're willing to almost do anything to get out of it.

And that's where you were at?

That's when you're in a great place to change. So I always say to people that are going through a hard time, like try to view it as an opportunity. Like what is the lesson that you're meant to be learning right now? And try to leverage the potential energy that's packed into that pain to, you know, transform yourself. Ironically, change is always available to all of us in every moment, right? We don't have to be in pain in order to change. It's just that it's difficult. It's a lot harder to do it that way. In terms of people setting goals and being unable to achieve them, I think that's a function of a couple things. I mean, first of all, have you set the right goal for yourself? If that goal isn't getting you excited, then perhaps it's not as aligned with your innate values as you might have suspected that it was. So I think a lot of people set goals without having done enough interior work to really understand themselves to, you know, appreciate what might be the right goal for them to set. So I think that's one thing.

So if it's not the right goal, it's probably going to be impossible to achieve it because your life is not designed to achieve that. That's not what you're meant for.

It's not what you're meant for and perhaps it's just not, you know, there's something inside of you that maybe you're not even aware of that is misaligned with that. Like if somebody comes to me and says, I want to do an Ironman or I want to run a marathon, like we were talking before the podcast, you want to run a marathon. Usually my first question to people like that is why? Like what is it that you're trying to learn How is that process going to lead to your growth? If they can answer that question and there's clarity around why this is important and what this will ultimately do in terms of moving their life path forward, then that's great. But if they're like, it sounds cool, or I just woke up one day and decided, then is that really a goal that's going to have staying power? Because that morning is going to arrive when it's cold and rainy out.

You're not going to want to go.

And the calendar says you got to do this today and you're not going to want to do it. And that's where goals, you know, the rubber meets the road in terms of whether you're actually going to follow through on this commitment that you made to yourself or you're gonna, you know, flake and look for the escape hatch.

Yeah, the out. I'll just sleep in this morning. I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it later, whatever it may be. Okay, so that's the first thing you said. The first part, why people don't achieve goals. Was there another part, another reason? They don't have the right goal in mind. align with their values?

Yeah, I think that, that achieving goals is hard, you know?

It's like, just in general.

The truth is, like, a lot of people don't appreciate the fact that doing anything exceptional requires a lot of work, right? And it requires that anonymous work that you do when no one's looking that doesn't, you know, trend on Instagram or Twitter. And when the going gets tough and you're conflicted over what it is that you're going to do on that day, it's easy to cave in. And so there's a level of like conviction and commitment to self that's required that I think you develop over time with some level of resilience and the persistence that comes with that. But if you don't appreciate that doing something hard is going to test you and is going to compel you to get out of your comfort zone, then you're going to struggle. Yeah.

I really believe that people who are living a good life have the biggest challenge because things are already going good enough. Like, everything is okay.

It's good.

You're not required to make enough effort to get to the next level.

Right.

And it's almost like we need something horrible to be happening or something really struggling. We might be doing well on our finances, but 300 pounds overweight and sick and feeling bad in order for us to finally say, wait a minute, I need to change this one thing. I talk about this a lot on the show that I feel like I wish we could learn a way to improve our life when things are okay or when things are a little less than okay. But most of the time it takes something drastic, a near-death experience for ourself, an injury, a sickness, someone dying close to us, a bankruptcy, a divorce, a heartache, and a breakup. Why do you think it's so hard for us to change and improve our life when things are good or a little less than good?

Well, I think that we delude ourselves into thinking when things are good, we delude ourselves into thinking they're always going to be good. And we also delude ourselves into believing that our lives are static in that regard. And the truth is, is that everything is always in flux. That flux may be imperceptible in the moment, but in truth, and I say this all the time, every thought that you entertain, every word that comes out of your mouth, every interaction that you have with another human being, every reaction that you have to whatever stimulus is coming your way, is either moving you forward in your life towards your aspirations or some level of self-actualization, or you're regressing back to some former less evolved version of yourself. And the more you can kind of be present with that and appreciate that truth, then you realize that as good as your life may be, there's always growth to be had. And all of us, no matter who you are, have blind spots. You may think you're doing great in all these areas, but you need people in your life who are giving you feedback saying, Yeah, I know you think that you're rocking it out over here, but you know, you're kind of off base on this other thing. Like, I think we all need, you know, a council of elders or a board of advisors who are willing to be honest with us to say, Look, you're not seeing this over here. You need to redirect. And then you're able to make those adjustments without having to reap the consequences of some crisis.

Hit right on it.

Because you're kind of, jigging and jigging along the way and course correcting as you go as opposed to hitting a wall and then going holy, like I thought I was good. And now, only now do I realize that I've been doing all these things all along that led to this point. We're our own worst enemies when it comes to objectively assessing where we're at.

Ourselves.

Yeah.

We're horrible at it. We should be asking our friends and family and peers all the time. Hey, where do you think I can improve? What am I doing really well that I can do better at? What are things I'm not doing well that I should be doing better at? But a lot of us don't want.

To ask those questions. We don't want the truth. Who is it? Richard Feynman, I think it was. It said something like, Our job is to be something like, I'm going to completely butcher this, but it's something like our job is to be honest with ourselves, but we're the ones that are most easily deluded by ourselves. You know what I mean? that's why you need those outside sources to provide you with that feedback. And that's why when you look at somebody we've both interviewed that we're friends with, Jesse Itzler, that's why I have so much respect for somebody like that whose life was going really well and he's like, it's too good. You know, like I need to bring David Goggins into my life to mix things up or I need to go, you know, to this monastery and sit with these monks for a while. because he realized that his life was just cruising along and that unless he created interruptions for himself, that he would just live that way in ease and comfort, you know, for as long as the universe would allow him to.

Very few people do that.

Right, I mean, it takes an extraordinary person to do that.

When you're making all the money in the world, when everything you touch turns to gold, when you've got the family, the kids, the relationship, it's like, I've got good friends. It's hard to say, I'm going to push myself harder. I'm going to step up and try to transform myself even more. Because some people might say, why work that hard to do that for yourself? Just enjoy your life, relax. You don't need to do all these crazy things to transform.

But the truth is, and anybody who's done hard things in their life knows this, that you feel most alive when you have the courage to step outside of your comfort zone and test yourself and put yourself in an uncomfortable situation. where you're gonna have to rise to the occasion. Those heightened moments are when you feel most fulfilled, most purposeful, and most, you know, kind of connected to yourself. And I think Jesse understood that as somebody who had, you know, done ultra marathons before. He knew how he felt when he was, you know, endeavoring to do something that perhaps he thought not possible. And I think, you know, when you live this, Our culture is set up with this programming that we're all meant to aspire to that level of ease and comfort and luxury. But what's missing is the fact that what actually provides the sense of satisfaction and fulfillment is getting outside of that and testing yourself. And I think for a lot of people, they don't understand that until they get a taste of what Jesse experienced, which is, Look, I got all this stuff, but I'm not content or as fulfilled as I would like to be, and I need to step outside of that in order to reconnect with that thing that fundamentally is part of being human.

Yeah, and I think you could have all the outer fulfillment in the world, but you're still lying to yourself until you create inner fulfillment, and that usually comes through mastery, of some type of practice or overcoming something challenging on a consistent basis where you say, okay, I'm building confidence because I did something as hard. It was hard for me to learn, hard for me to overcome. I think the more things we learn how to overcome on a consistent basis, the happier we become.

Yeah, to be sure. I mean, and to kind of underscore your point, it's not about external validation. It's about your relationship to yourself. Yes. And you know when your head hits the pillow at night and when you wake up in the morning what that relationship looks like. and if that's missing something, then perhaps that's a little nudge or a call to action that you need to change things up a little bit.

So when did this moment, this is about 20 years ago when you started to transform your food, your nutrition training.

14 years ago.

14 years ago. How does someone, because a lot of people go through these, especially this year, losing a job, a breakup, a relationship, a health scare, or whatever it may be, losing a friend or a parent, is happening a lot right now, unfortunately, for people. And then people decide to take action and say, okay, I'm gonna change my life. And I'm gonna take action. I'm gonna commit to this and have these new goals. I'm gonna go after it. I'm gonna let go of sugar and be vegan, whatever it is. How does someone sustain it for 14 years and beyond? Because sometimes they'll do that for two years and then fall back into the old patterns. How do we stay consistent in growing the way you did? because you used to drink a lot of alcohol, used to eat horrible, not train, all these things, and you've been consistent 14 years.

Yeah, I think the key is that as important as it is to set big goals that scare you and hold this lofty aspiration for a better version of who you are, those are like North Stars to help guide your direction. But once you kind of set those, at least what I've done is I just lodge them in the back of my mind. And then it's really just about what's happening in the moment. Again, it goes back to the present. When I got sober, the idea that I was never going to drink alcohol again, are you kidding me? Like, I have to go to a bachelor party in six months and then I've got this thing in Vegas and then I have to go to, you know, it's like, how am I going to get through those things without drinking, right? completely overwhelming. And I think when people set a goal, they start future tripping on that kind of stuff and then it seems overwhelming and ultimately that leads to abandoning it. So what you have to do is you have to chunk it. You have to break it down into bite-sized chunks and say, I know I'm going to that bachelor party in six months but today I just have to not drink. That's all I have to worry about or Today, I just need to make sure that I don't end up face planting in Haagen-Dazs before I go to bed. That's the only thing that's your job.

This is your job.

Yeah, it's like, what are you doing right now? What's the next right choice that you're making? And when you break it down into its smallest components, then it becomes digestible. So it's about putting distance between yourself and whatever that imagined future might be because it hasn't happened yet and shouldn't take up any mental energy and just focusing on what you're doing right now. We were talking about back to the marathon before the podcast. We were talking about how you want to do this marathon and it's how overwhelming because it's longer than you've ever run before. And I'm like, just worry, you can do it.

It's just about preparation.

One day at a time. Today I'm running eight miles. That's all I got to worry about. You know what I mean? And I think when you begin to master these small tasks and you're just eating away very, very gradually at these goals, over time they become less intimidating and much more doable. And I think along the way, as you master these tasks, they become rote. So then they don't expend a lot of mental energy. You're like, oh, this is just what I do. So your actions start to align with a value system. And I think when you're actions align with your values, then it's less about achieving a goal and more about just acclimating your lifestyle around these various actions and principles. They just become who you are. And the goal is achieved not because you're working hard towards it, but because it just becomes the person that you are.

It's part of your identity.

Yeah.

Like this, I am this thing. I am a sober individual.

I am a vegan. I'm somebody who runs. I'm not somebody who doesn't eat animal products.

I'm somebody who doesn't drink.

Yeah, there's no exceptions.

You just are that.

Right.

I think a lot of people don't decide to create new identities. Is it important that we should be thinking of a new identity all the time or just getting clear on the values we want to live by and then become that identity?

Yeah, the latter. I mean, I don't think about like, oh, this is, these are my, you know, these, I don't think about, I'm trying to become this other person. I just spend time thinking about what's important to me and how can I align my actions with that set of principles, right? That's all that it requires. And I think in furtherance of that point, people tend to wildly overestimate what they can achieve in a year and wildly underestimate what they can achieve in a decade. I'm much older than you. I'm 54. I've been trying to iterate on myself for many, many years. And if you Google me, there's a narrative that makes it look like I snap my fingers and all these things happened overnight. But in truth, my personal growth trajectory started when I was 31 and I found myself in a treatment center as a hopeless alcoholic. And then it was another 10 years before I figured out I had all these blind spots around other habits. that were leading me astray and how to address those. And it's just been one step at a time of moving forward. I mean, I remember as I was driving over here, I have this vivid memory of coming to your apartment the first time I met you and I was going to be on your podcast and you were going to be on mine. -It had to be like seven years ago. -It was like, we started right around the same time.

-Yeah. You started a few months before me.

Yeah. And seven years ago, yeah. No furniture in your apartment.

I had nothing.

And you had this Mike, and I was like, you need a better Mike. And we both were trying to figure out this podcast thing.

How do we get people to figure out what the download button is?

And if I was to tell you then, you were gonna have these millions of people that care deeply about what you do and that you were gonna be in this beautiful studio doing this thing. You would have been like, There's no way. And how did you achieve that? Just like you just another episode, like one more guest, like who am I interviewing today? You know, you just stay in the process. The more that you can divorce your emotional attachment to outcomes and future, you know, destinations and just concentrate on doing the best job with what you've got right in front of you and fall in love with the process. and that process being an expression of that value system and what you care about, that's where you're in a position to actually succeed. Then you wake up 10 years later and you're like, Holy s***, I'm in this fancy studio. How did that happen? Right.

And the outcomes don't matter as much anymore. You have the goal, but you're so, you're enjoying the process so much.

It's not about that.

The little wins are so exciting. You just love your life. And when you love your life and you're happier and you're more appreciative and grateful, you're going to start attracting more of those good things in your life. Right, right.

The opportunities come to you.

Yeah, they start chasing you. You don't chase them.

Exactly, because suddenly you're carrying a residence that's attractive and people want to be around that. And so you're acting more like a tractor beam rather than running around, expending your energy, trying to get people interested in what you're doing. because you're focused on doing something exceptional that's an authentic expression of who you are, and ultimately that becomes attractive to the world around you.

You mentioned in the last time we had, Joanne, that one of the biggest challenges you have is you have too many opportunities now and you're recovering people pleaser and you say yes to a lot of things that then pull you away from your current projects and mission that you have. How have you been in the last year and a half? Since then, I don't know.

I mean, I still struggle with that. You know, I'm still a hopeless people pleaser. Do you like me, Louis? Yeah, yeah.

Was this okay?

Yeah. Right, you know, it's funny, when the pandemic started, I thought, I'm also naturally introverted, so I thought, this will be awesome. I have an excuse to not follow through on any of these, all these commitments that I made to other people. to get involved in their stuff because I can't travel and I can't do it. So now I can just do my thing, you know, and I don't have to, you know, say yes to anything. I can say no to a bunch of stuff. Over time, I figured out that I was much more of a social creature than I suspected because like everybody, I need that human connection as well. I would say that I've gotten a lot better, but out of necessity just because, you know, when you're focused on your thing, There just isn't as much room as you would like to get involved in other people's stuff. But it's still difficult for me. Somebody will call me and be like, I'm doing this thing. And my instinct is always like, yeah, let me help you. I wanna do this, I wanna do that. And it becomes hard. So you have to be, it's back to your values. What is your core? I hate the word mission, but what is it that you're actually doing what's a distraction and what's a value add. And sometimes it's easy to distinguish those things, but sometimes it's not.

Would you say you have a very addictive personality?

Yeah, I'm recovering. I spent 100 days in a treatment center for addiction. So yes, I'm a highly, highly addictive personality.

How does someone use their addictive personality in their favor? for good. Because you've changed it to be more in your favor for good, but still have, you know, this, I know it's not consuming you, but it's like this people pleasing mentality, same as me, which is kind of addictive thing to want to break. How do people break that for all the bad things in their life and use it for all good things?

Well, first let me say, on the subject of addiction. Like, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I've been, you know, in recovery for a very long time. 12 Steps saved my life. Like, the most important thing to me is like staying sober, helping another alcoholic achieve sobriety. That being said, I think addiction lives on a spectrum. Like, I'm perhaps at one more extreme end of that. But for every junkie that can't pull the needle out of their arm, there's millions of people that can't put the phone down or find themselves repeatedly in unhealthy relationships or unable to stay out of the casino or whatever it is. Maybe they just can't stop eating chocolate. I think we all have a variety of addictive tendencies no matter who you are, even if you're grounded and healthy. That being said, figuring out how to, first of all, figuring out how to quell the negative impacts of that is important. And I've learned many tools over the years from surrender to service. And at the same time, being gentle with yourself and saying, okay, this is my disposition. I can't always be fighting it, but how can I channel it into something productive for myself? So whether, you know, I'm working on a book or I'm building my podcast or whatever other creative pursuit it is, I've been successful because I know how to, like, focus on something and blot out the world and, like, go all in on it. Perhaps that is at times unhealthy. But I think it's okay as long as you acknowledge that and understand that that pendulum has to swing back to center, right? Like, if you look at the buckets of your life, like what's most important? Like, I have my recovery, I have my family, I have my career, I have my friends, whatever those buckets may be in your life. I think it's okay to be really focused on one at a time. The idea that you're going to give all those buckets the equal amount of attention on a daily basis is unrealistic.

It's really hard, yeah.

Which is why I have strong opinions about this idea of balance. But you have to make sure that you don't become so immersed or obsessive or compulsive about this one thing that you can pull yourself out of it and have the conscious awareness to say, okay, it's time for me to now reinvest that energy in one of these other buckets. Or how can I apportion my energy and my time so that I'm making sure that the things that are important in my life are being tended to and attended to. Yeah.

What's the biggest addiction that's holding you back still? Biggest challenge.

People pleasing is a big one. Perfectionism is a big one. I end up being a bottleneck in a lot of stuff. This is a conversation we've had a million times. Going back to day one, I still fight this battle. I'm better though. That's good.

What do you think it is? Why do you think people live in perfectionism? Why is that a thing for so many people?

It's a control mechanism. And I think it's also about external validation. this has to be perfect or I won't be loved. Or if this isn't perfect, then people are going to think differently of me than I want them to think. So I think a lot of it is based on trying to control external perceptions of you and that's rooted in self-esteem. If your self-esteem is fragile, then you're going to want to make sure that every step that you make is absolutely perfect so you're not giving anyone excuse to not accept you. Yeah.

How do we overcome that you think? There's so many people that'll say that they have this, they don't create, you know this a lot, I mean a lot of people don't put out their dreams. I asked someone on a training that I did a month ago, I asked my group and I said, how many of you had a goal or a dream for the last year and you haven't taken action on it? A lot of people virtually raised their hand. I said, How many of you have had that same dream for five years? A lot of people kept their hand up. How many of you have had this dream for 10 years and you haven't done it? But it keeps ruminating in your mind that you want to do it. A lot of people still keep their hand up for 10 years plus. And I go, that's like the need for it to be perfect is what I'm hearing from a lot of people is what holds them back from putting it out there or the fear of judgment. the fear of failure, the opinions of other people. But why are we so afraid?

Well, I think that's going to vary depending upon the individual. I mean, what you're alluding to, that sense of perfectionism leads to analysis paralysis, right? You're just not going to put anything out into the world unless it's perfect. So of course, you never end up doing anything. Right? Because it's nothing. You're never going to live up to your own imagined standard that you set for yourself. And that fear, I think, is what holds a huge amount of people back. But it's more complicated than that at the same time. I think there are a lot of people who, for whatever psychological, emotional reasons, are just terrified of stepping out of whatever routine they've created for themselves. and maybe that's a result of the way that they were parented or some trauma that they experienced. If you're somebody who grew up poor and now you're in a job that pays the bills and you have this dream, but that dream involves taking risk, including financial risk, then that person's going to have a little bit more trepidation than maybe somebody else. It's that not knowing that creates an additional paralysis on top of that.

But if we knew what would happen, it wouldn't be as fun. You know what I mean? If we knew what the end result would be.

But everybody has a different relationship with risk. You know? Like you're somebody who has a healthy relationship with risk. I think what happens is you take a risk and if it succeeds, then that reframes your relationship with risk. and you're willing to take another one, and maybe that next step is gonna be a little bit broader and a little bit riskier than the one that came before it. But if you've lived your life in a certain way in accordance with some set of parameters, like this is what I do and I go to school and I get this job and I'm gonna get my pension, and they've never stepped outside of that and challenged themselves in any fundamental real way, then you telling them, you gotta try these other things, is gonna be scary and intimidating. So what I always say to those people is it's not about quitting your job. You don't even have to take a risk. Like if you have this dream that you've been harboring for a decade but you haven't done anything about it, what's the least risky thing that you could do to actually breathe a little bit of life into it? Like maybe you want to play the clarinet or whatever it is. You want to be a stand-up comedian. Like write a joke and just that's it. That's all you have to do. Just today write a joke. Not asking you to go on stage. I'm not asking you to quit your job. Just do that one thing. And I think when you take it's back to the whole like micro step, what are you doing in this moment? You know, concept. And I think when you take those little steps that have very little risk attached to them, over time you create a little bit of momentum and a little bit of emotional attachment to that. And then suddenly the next step is slightly less scary than the one that came before it. And so you can kind of iterate on that over time until suddenly you wake up and you're like, oh, I got like 15 minutes of jokes here. And then you have to take the big risk and get up on stage. Or maybe just call your friend and you tell your friend these jokes. That's less risky, right? But what is it that you can do that's just enough outside of your comfort zone but not so outside of your comfort zone that it's going to paralyze you. Yeah.

What do you think are the three things, three biggest things we could do to increase our confidence and belief in ourself?

Speaking as somebody who lacked confidence as a young person, I mean, I think the most powerful thing to two things, I don't know if I can think of three, but two that come to mind are, One, if you accomplish something that's hard, particularly something that maybe you thought you weren't capable of, that's immediately going to boost your esteem.

That's it.

It has nothing to do with external validation. Again, it's about your relationship with yourself. The second thing is that self-esteem comes from performing esteemable acts. Those esteemable acts can be on behalf of yourself, like what I just talked about, but they also come from performing selfless acts for others. So being of service to somebody else is like a super highway to self-esteem. So if you're not feeling great about yourself, you're basically miring in your own self-pity, and that does no good for anybody. So the best thing you can do is avail yourself to help another human being. And that can be as simple as calling up a friend who you know is having a hard time and just listening to them. You don't have to solve their problem, but just give them your time. It's the most valuable thing that you have. It doesn't have to be going to a soup kitchen and feeding those less fortunate. It can be that. It can be anything. But what I found and what I've learned over many years of practicing this is that you basically get outside of yourself and you realize that you're living in your head and you're running, you're looping this, you know, story that you're telling yourself about who you are and what your limits are. And the minute that you, that you make yourself available to help somebody else, it quiets all of that. All of that goes away. And when you make that a practice, I can almost guarantee, I can guarantee that you're gonna feel better about yourself because you're making a difference for other people.

You always boost confidence when you do that. I have two other things that came to my mind. One is being your word to yourself. Being your word to other people. Being your word to other people and showing up the way you say you're gonna be on time or I'm gonna help you with this thing and you actually follow through, that builds confidence with yourself where you say, I'm gonna walk three miles today. doing it and completing it as opposed to, I'm gonna walk three miles today and then you don't do it, you lose confidence with yourself because you aren't able to follow through on your word.

That's an estimable act on behalf of yourself.

Exactly.

Right? And I think, you know, a close cousin to that is being gentle with yourself, right? And understanding that we're all flawed human beings and we mess up and we're not perfect. So when you find yourself in the wake of such a misstep to be like, it's okay.

Don't beat yourself up all day.

Yeah, like how can you practice self-love and forgiveness of yourself?

Yeah, it's powerful. I think also something else that came up for me was using some of your time to follow the things that you feel like you're meant to follow. Like following your dreams, your goals, a hobby, a passion, whatever it may be, using at least some of your time dedicated towards what's in your heart telling you you should be doing.

Yeah, I mean, I think in a macro sense, what you're saying is to live your life more intentionally and less reactively. And that's become more difficult in our technology-infused era where it's so easy to just look at our phone and and take ourselves out of the moment, that we have to be more rigorous with how we use our time and create boundaries around that quiet time, that creative space, even if it's just a few minutes in the morning before you start just responding and reacting to everything that's around you.

What's been the hardest thing for you to overcome in terms of using technology? Is it the phone first thing in the morning? Is it on the phone too much? watching Netflix too long. What's the thing for you you've had to overcome in the last year?

I mean, it's a struggle with the phone, you know what I mean?

Because-- Use it for everything.

And for people like us, it's part of what we do, right?

It's our business.

It's not like, I'm not going on, it's not like my relationship with the phone is to see what my friends are doing on Facebook. It's like, I need to be posting these things.

Marketing and promoting and yeah.

You know, what, what I've had to do is just understand that I'm, you know, I'm, I'm there to broadcast. And so, you know, I don't get involved in Twitter spats and all that kind of stuff. Like, every once in a while, I mean, I think, like, you know, Twitter for me, it's like, that's the, you.

Know, you can go down a rabbit hole.

Well, I mean, I, I just, I'm scrolling. Like, I don't get involved in stuff. Like, I post the podcast and I share, you know, interesting things from time to or an article that I think is worthy or a film that I think would be interesting for people to watch. Like, I'm, but, but I don't, I don't get involved in a lot of.

Back and forth, but, But you do watch it.

But I'll watch it. You know what I mean? I'll be like, this drama is unfolding and I have to see what's, you know, how this is gonna play out and it's not good. So, you know, I go through periods where I take those apps off my phone. You know, if I have to use them, I'll make sure that it's on a browser on my computer, which makes.

It just a little bit more difficult. You listen to a lot of Cal Newport for that, the deep work.

Well, Cal is like, you know, He.

Has no social media.

Yeah, I know. It's like, you know, good luck getting in touch with that guy, you know what I mean? He's on email, but, you know, it's like, you know, there could be all kinds of stuff going on on social networks about his books and he would have no idea.

No idea.

No idea. And you know what?

He's probably freer of it.

He's freer, happier, more productive, certainly freer.

Yeah, more connected to his family and friends probably, or freer. that's interesting. So the phone has been a challenge for you?

Yeah, of course. Especially in a pandemic when we're stuck at home, you know, it just gets ratcheted up. I mean, how does that look for you?

Some days I'm really good, other days I'm like, nine hours on my phone. Geez, what was I doing? You know, it's like a lot of it is work related and connecting with my team on FaceTime or talking to my girlfriend or whatever it may be. But just screen time, nine hours. I saw one day, I was like, usually it's like six or seven, but I saw nine hours. I was like, man, what was I doing all day?

Yeah.

And so it's just being very deliberate with our time on the phone. And I use my phone a lot more than my computer also. So it's like, okay, if I was on my computer for five hours a day creating or something, it'd be similar.

But it's challenging. Well, it's the more important metric. It's less about time and it's more about how much of that is being used for consumption and how much of it is being used for creation. Yeah. You know, if you're using it to create, that's a different relationship than it is to just mindlessly scroll and consume what other people are creating.

One of the reasons I love the podcast is because it's like an hour or two of no phone and just connecting with someone and just learning, creating, being. That's one of the things I love about it. It's like you have to put that aside. You can't have a computer or phone.

You got an iPad.

In front of you, though. Well, I'm taking notes here. It's got my questions here, but I'm not using it for something.

I know.

One of the things I did, I bought this last night. I was like, you know what? I always tell myself that I'm not gonna have my phone in my room or I'm not gonna check it in the first 10 or 20 minutes or something. And I do it for a couple days, and I always fall back into that pattern for whatever reason. Like, I get lazy. I just plug it in, and then I'm like, oh, something's happening in the morning. and I never feel good when I do that. And so last night I actually went on Amazon and I was like, I need to find the simplest alarm clock. And also when I was interviewing Jay Shetty, he was like, it's never good to wake up to an alarm. You don't want to be alarmed when you wake up. You're automatically in fear and reaction. Yeah. I was like, I've been doing that my whole life. And I was like, how can I get an alarm clock that just has like nature sounds, it just has like birds, you know, water, and wake me up more relaxed.

Right.

And I'm excited to try it. And I'm like, okay, if I can have an alarm that's not alarming but wakes me up peacefully.

Right.

And my phone is in another room, then I feel like I can really start to create different habits for myself. So I'm excited about that.

It's good. I mean, I have pretty hard and fast rules about the morning time. You know, the morning for me is my most creative part of the day. And I try to really honor that by not getting on the phone and doing meditation and journaling. Yeah. And creative work. I don't schedule any phone calls or meetings before 12. You know, that's when I. After I do that, I train. And, like, that's really, you know, I'm fortunate in that I'm self-employed and I have control over my schedule, and I've. we understand that, you know, that's a luxury and a lot of people don't have that. But I think really being mindful and intentional about that first hour after you wake up in the morning is super important because you're setting the tone for how the whole day is going to go. And if you wake up alarmed and then immediately go to your phone and you're just reacting, then you're not in control of your life. Your life is being dictated and controlled by external forces. Now, we all have to respond to the world, right? But if you can just delay that a little bit and use that morning time to connect with yourself, to remind yourself about why it is that you're doing whatever it is you're going to do on that day, I think you're in a better position to just be more present and responsive rather than reactive when the stresses of the day start getting hurled at you.

Yeah. Being more in reflection mode than reaction mode, I think is key. What do you think is the thing that's going to help take you to the next level over the next decade? 54 right now?

Yeah, I'm 54.

What do you think over the next six years?

What's the next level?

What is the next level for you?

I don't, you know, to be honest, I don't really think of my life in those terms. Like I don't, it's not like, oh, I'm doing this, but I really want to be here.

Maybe it's not creating more, it's just being something greater, whether that's being more intentional in my marriage or relationships or being more intentional here. What's going to make you a better version of you? Whether it's serving more people or doing or pulling less on projects, you know.

It's hard because I'm really happy right now and I'm really happy with my life and I feel so grateful that I get to do what I do. And if this was it, I'm good. It doesn't have to be... I'm not doing it to get to some other place. And I think that the thing that I want to be able to master that I've struggled with is just being able to live more in joy and appreciation of that. Like, intellectually, I understand it. I can connect with that gratitude when I focus on it, but it doesn't come easy to me. Like, I'm still a grinder. And, and, and, you know, this, this vocation that I built for myself, I'm very proud of. But when it began, there was a level of, like, financial. desperation that I was in and uncertainty. And I leveraged those as motivation. And I was able to kind of climb out of that and create something that now is very stable and successful. But I still operate with a little PTSD from that.

Really?

And feel like I have to keep, you know, I have to like, it's got to be like this. Like I hold onto it very tightly. And I think the opportunity for me is to mature out of that trauma and just more in joy and appreciation. So that I can have more fun throughout the day. And I think also with that focus and that addictive tendency, I tend to live my life like this, which cuts me off more than I would like from friends and intimacy with people that I care about, if I'm being really honest. Wow.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So I have, you know, I have great relationships with my kids and my marriage is great and all of that, but. But I could do better with my friendships for sure. And I think the pandemic has brought that into focus in a way that maybe I wouldn't have appreciated, so. I always look at situations like this, like, oh, rather than the pandemic happening to us, how can we look at it as happening for us? Where is the growth opportunity here? And that's kind of what's been coming up for me.

Where do you think you're lacking intimacy the most?

I think just in being more available to my friends. You know what I mean? Like, I'm busy, I got this going on. We just get caught up in our lives. and then our lives move quickly. I can tell you as somebody who's older than you, it's like, wow, I'm 54, really? 'Cause I feel like I'm 30. But then I'm like, my beard's white, dude. And I wanna be, yeah, so I wanna be a better friend, I think.

So I'm 37. Where were you at 37?

I was seven years sober and very intent on becoming a successful lawyer in Los Angeles.

You're still a lawyer then?

Oh yeah, I was a lawyer until I was 40. So I practiced law for, I don't know, 15 years or something. Yeah, I was working across the street here as a lawyer. jamming, you know, the square peg into a round hole, determined to make it work, and blithely unaware that I was chasing the wrong goal. You know, I've chased the wrong goal. And out of sheer determination and perseverance, you know, and holding on tightly to it, refusing to see what was obvious to a lot of people, which was that, like, I don't think this is the right career for you.

But you were holding on to it to achieve it, and you achieved a.

Certain level of success. Yeah, I was living. I was living my life in accordance with a set of rules that I don't want to say the wrong thing.

They weren't yours.

Yeah, they weren't mine. And I didn't have the conscious awareness to understand that I was living my life in accordance with somebody else's rule book and not my own. And I wasn't self-integrated enough to realize that. And it took another crisis for me to say, I've never really asked myself what it is that I wanted. Like, I just was the guy who, you know, got tried to get the good grades and get into the best school that I could and, you know, go to grad school and get the best job. And then, you know, to wake up at 40 and think, I don't think that I'm climbing the right ladder here. It wasn't until you were 40 when you realized that?

Yeah, I mean, that was when I had that.

That's when I was like, you know, 50 pounds overweight and had the staircase thing and I was like, you couldn't climb anyways. I need to, you know, I needed a different kind of intervention in my life and a redirect. So it took a little bit of a mini crisis for me to realize that. And I never felt entitled to even ponder what it was that I wanted out of life or what it might be that would get me excited to get out of bed in the morning. I was like, I'm a person of a certain education and there are expectations that are built into that and this is what I need to do. and I had to like, you know, drive that into a brick wall in order to, you know, re-examine and ultimately deconstruct it.

So if you're 37 looking back, what are three things you would have let go of or eliminated in your life that weren't working for you?

I would have told myself to just stop already, like quit. Like, what are you doing? Like, you're not on the right path for yourself. It's okay. It's not about failure. It's about honoring yourself. I was living for social and parental approval at that time. And I think that's the case with a lot of people.

Were you living more for parent or social approval?

It was a little bit of both. I mean, I love my parents, but I grew up in a household where you were expected to perform at a certain level and I got self-esteem from trying to live up to those expectations, even though I could never quite get to that point. I would chase that for a very long time and ultimately couldn't find myself until I'd exasperated that.

Okay, so let go of that quit. What else would you have done?

Well, I would have said stop drinking, but I had already stopped drinking by that point. I think the other thing that I was doing at that time, because I was so caught up in external validation, it was like, I need to get the better car or like, let me move into this apartment. And I was living outside of my means, so. The biggest piece of advice that I always give to young people and certainly would have given to myself would be to live as leanly as possible. To let go of all that stuff because it just buys you options and opportunities. You have choices. But if you incur debt and live outside of those means, then you become enslaved to whatever salary you're earning, that paycheck, then becomes your master and you're unable to pivot and make choices. Even if you want to chase that dream or do that thing, you don't feel capable of doing it because you're servicing a lifestyle.

Do you think a lot of people are still in that space today in their late 30s that they're overexpending their finances? they're in debt, they're doing stuff they don't want to do for others approvals, and they're addicted to something that's holding them back.

I think there's two camps, you know, I think there is a generation of young people who are very influenced by, you know, Instagram culture and they see guys with Lambos and yachts and all that kind of stuff. And it's just like, that's what I got to have.

And they're not successful.

So there's a certain level. Yeah, you're not successful. unless you're standing in front of a private jet or something like that. And so that motivates young people to live outside their means to try to front that they're living in a certain way that is in accordance with that set of parameters. And I'm sure that there's a lot of young people who are in debt or living way outside of their means in order to look good on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is. At the same time, there's a whole new generation of young people who are more on the Joshua Fields Millburn tip of living minimally. You get to my age and it's like, oh, those young people. But I look at Gen Z and I'm very encouraged because this is a generation of people who actually care about things that matter. They're making life decisions and career decisions based upon social responsibility and personal fulfillment. And they're not about the bling. They're about like finding meaning in their career choices and their lifestyle choices. And so I'm very, you know, when I see, you know, that message out there, that message of minimalism and like, trying to identify what your values are and, and organizing your life in accordance with that, as opposed to, you know, what comes on the other side of that, which is what we just talked about. I I get a lot of, like, hope and enthusiasm for that, you know, ethos. Right. And that was not something when I was growing up, there was no, nobody was.