Doctors Secret: How to HEAL Anxiety & Depression + Lower Blood Sugar for Good! Dr Rangan Chatterjee

I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison inside your own mind. When people forgive, your blood pressure can go down, your anxiety can go down, your depression can go down. Forgiveness has been shown to improve the quality of your relationships. I passionately believe that the happiest people are those who can move on and let go. Rangan Chatterjee is one of the most influential doctors in the UK. Physician and host of the most listened to health podcast in Europe. Dr. Rangan Chatterjee. When my dad died in 2013, it was the first time where I had to start asking myself questions about who am I? Like, whose life am I leading? Is this my life or is this somebody else's life? Prior to that moment, I'm not sure how much I trusted myself. Really? It's part of life. I don't see health, happiness and relationships as separate. I think they're all part of the same thing. And if you improve one of them, you improve all of them. And that's what's always driven me as a doctor. Can I just tell you one more case that I wrote about because I think it really speaks powerfully to this. One of the saddest cases in my career for me personally.

Hey, guys. Lewis Howes here.

Today is going to be a big.

Episode because Dr. Rangan Chatterjee shared with me that 80 to 90 of what doctors see is related to stress and how unresolved emotional stress actually manifests as physical symptoms or illness in the body. And that blew me away that 80 to 90% of the things that doctors see are related to anxiety and stress related disease and illness. He's going to walk through all these different things and how you can heal yourself in this episode today. If you're enjoying this, make sure to like this video and share this with a friend. subscribe to our YouTube channel as well. And if you feel any type of stress or anxiety around money, my new book, Make Money Easy is coming out very soon. Make sure to pre-order it. The link will be in the description below. This will help you create financial freedom and free yourself from anxiety and stress related money problems. So those issues don't manifest in your body as well. So excited for this episode. Make sure to subscribe, leave a like, and let's dive in. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Dr. Rangan Chatterjee in the house. My man, so good to see you.

And welcome back to the show. Good to see you, Liz.

I'm excited to come back on. New studio. New studio.

New life.

And that's what we're talking about today, which is around your book, Make Changes that Last. Nine simple ways to break free from the habits that hold you back from a life that really, you people have been struggling from or dealing with some type of blockage in their life. And as we are shooting this and starting out into a brand new year, 2025, there's a lot of things in the last half decade that have been blocking people. And you have been a medical doctor for 23 years. You're one of the most well-known famous medical doctors in the UK. You've got a massive show. You've treated people for a long time, but you just stopped your practice, what you just told me, after 23 years.

Yeah.

What have you noticed in 23 years of being a medical doctor and now leaving the medical world and transcending by doing different strategies to set yourself free to create peace? What have you noticed in the last 23 years that's been holding people back really over this last half a decade. And we'll start with that.

What I've noticed, Louis, is that every single patient who I've ever seen throughout my entire career, they've come in for a reason. They've come in because they want to get well. I know that sounds obvious, but I don't think we think about that enough. Why would they take half a day off work to go and sit in a waiting room in a doctor's surgery about a symptom that sometimes might appear to be quite trivial? I've never thought, why is that person wasting my time? Many doctors do say, why are they coming in with this? I've always thought, why is this person on this particular day ended up in my practice? What has been going on in their life and for how long? That means today they're here in front of me, wanting help. And what I've realized over 23 years is that everyone can feel happier and healthier than they currently are. Like everyone wants to make change that lasts. Anybody can make change for a few weeks, for a few months. But what most people are really looking for are changes that actually last. True transformation in their life. And I believe that that is available to all of us. if we know what to look at. So you said, what is holding us back? Well, I believe there's many things in modern society that are holding us back. But chapter one in this book is called Trust Yourself. And I believe one of the things that is holding us back is that we are overly reliant on experts. Now, let me be clear what I mean by that, Liz, because I'm a so-called expert, right? I have a medical degree. I've got my specialist qualifications, my primary care qualifications. I have an immunology degree. I'm a professor at Chester Medical School.

Like best selling author, podcaster, all these things.

So I have all these things, but I will still say that I don't know what is right for every single individual. Like I can't do. I know some principles and I think what's happened today in this era of Information overload. There's so much health information out there. I mean, you talk to health experts, I talk to health experts, there's books, there's blogs, there's podcasts, there's everything. And people are getting confused. I often get on my Instagram, people will say, Hey, Dr. Chatterjee, a few months ago, you spoke to this expert, and they said this kind of diet was the best diet for health. and they have all the credentials. And then last week you spoke to this expert and they said, this diet is best for human health, and they both had research to back it up. Dr. Chassy, tell me what to do. I'm confused. Which expert should I trust? But Lewis, I think that's the wrong question. I don't think we should be asking which expert should I trust. I think the real question, the more powerful question is, why do I no longer trust myself? And I am an expert, but I give people principles and I feel that what we need to get back to is our intuition, is our inner world. I contend that most people, Lewis, know when they're on the right diet for them because they can feel it if they're paying attention. So I say listen to experts. I'm not saying don't listen to experts. I'm saying listen to what they have to say, and instead of trying to decide which expert is right, I feel that the advice should be which expert's advice is right for me at this moment in time. And we're not doing that. And this is why I think people are getting confused, because they've given up their own inner expertise to external experts, and they can all be right. Both experts can be right, for different people.

And they could both be wrong for you. Exactly.

And this is where my many years of clinical practice comes in because I've seen tens of thousands of patients, Louis. And the truth is I've seen some patients thrive on a whole food plant-based diet, but I've seen others who didn't do so well on that diet and they thrived on a low-carb diet. I've seen others thrive on a paleo diet. And so what I've learned is that there's no one perfect diet for every single individual. And I think when I say it, it sounds quite obvious, but I think many people, they're still waiting for an expert to tell them what's best for their life. And I think that's the problem.

With all the credentials that you have, with all of the years of experience with the tens of thousands of patients or clients that you've treated, With all the knowledge you have, when was the time that you trust yourself the least? Even with all the credibility and the education and the tools and the success? What was the time that you had the least amount of trust in yourself?

It's a great question and it's making me think. I think it was before my dad died in 2013. I think my dad dying was such a big moment for me, like it would be for anyone, right? But I used to care for my dad. I'd moved back to the northwest of England because my dad was sick with lupus. He had an autoimmune disease. He was on dialysis for 15 years. And I moved back from Edinburgh where I went to study and practice. I moved back to help my mom and my brother look after my dad. And when my dad died in 2013, it was the first time where I had to start asking myself questions about who am I? Whose life am I leading? Is this my life or is this somebody else's life? And I think that prior to that moment of my dad dying, I'm not sure how much I trusted myself. Really? Yeah, I think I was looking for what's the evidence saying? What's the external evidence saying? What are people saying? Like I was very much driven by external validation back then. I wanted people to like me. I changed who I was to be accepted by other people. So you say, when did you trust yourself the least? That's a great question. I've never been asked that before, right? It's making me think. I don't think I even knew what it meant to trust myself back then. When I started dating my now wife back in 2007, and I write about this in chapter three of the book, which is called Be Yourself, I write about when I first met Vid and we were dating and we'd go out for dinner and it should be like, what are you gonna order? What are you gonna order? And I would often say, Hey, babe, listen, you can't decide. Why don't you order two dishes that you want, and I'll have the one that you don't want. And on the face of it, I thought I was being kind and compassionate. You know, I really like this girl. Hey, you can't choose. Don't worry about it, because that's how I was raised, right? Don't make a fuss. You know, do what everyone, you know, do what you need to do to keep the peace around you. And a few days in, I didn't realize that Vid was getting frustrated. And I didn't get why she was getting frustrated. And she basically, she wanted a man who knew his own mind. She didn't want a man who was just trying to appease her. And it was quite a powerful lesson for me back then. I mean, I found it difficult because I didn't know what I was doing wrong. But since my dad died and I've gone on this inner journey to explore myself and why I feel certain ways and why certain things used to trigger me, I realized that I was a people pleaser for much of my life. And so when you asked me the question, Louis, when did you trust yourself the least? It was back then because I didn't know what myself was. I didn't know what I wanted. Everything I did was about what the people around me wanted. But that is something that it is possible to change. I changed it. You've done massive changes in your life in terms of what happened in your childhood and where you are today. I'm not a people pleaser anymore. I do know how to listen to my body now. I do know how to trust myself. And I think there's a wider point there, isn't there, Louis? Which is many people, they might hear me and you talk about trusting yourself, But they don't know what that means because they've spent their whole lives changing who they are to be accepted by other people. And that's why I think sometimes we're looking for external advice to teach us what should I do? How should I live? How should I eat? And I'm not saying don't listen. I'm saying listen, put it through your own filter. And that's why I believe that for most of us, the most important practice for our health and happiness is a daily practice of solitude. And I really believe that because without that solitude where you're not getting inputs from the outside and you're actually starting to listen to your body's own signals, you're going to struggle to know what your body's telling you. You're going to struggle to trust yourself. And it's, you've really made me think, man. You really made me think. Yeah. When was the last time that... When did I trust myself the least? Yeah, it was pre-2013 and I would say it was for most of my life.

When you trust yourself the most, what are you doing and what are you not doing?

When I trust myself the most, I'm living life in alignment with my values. So my last book was on happiness, Louis, and in that book I share how happiness is a skill. It's a skill that we can all get better at if we know what to work on. And in that book, I created a model for happiness, and I say the three key ingredients for happiness are contentment, control, and alignment. And alignment is when you're inner values and your external actions start to match up when the person who you really are inside and the person who you are being out there in the world are one and the same. I'm really aligned these days. Yeah. As I get the impression you are. Yeah. And I think it's much easier to trust yourself the more aligned you are. Right. Now, it's a vicious cycle because, you know, you kind of need to trust yourself to start living in alignment. And the more alignment you can live in, the more you start to trust yourself. So I think it works both ways. But for me, it's when I've got a regular routine in my life, when I'm going to bed the same time every night, when I'm sleeping well. And for me, it comes down to whether I can for the first half hour of my day, not go online. not go on my phone and have a little morning routine and ritual, which I do have and I have done for many years. And that ritual that I have every morning, it sets me up. It's my time before my wife gets up, before my kids get up. What I send to myself, I ground, and I pay attention to how I'm feeling and what my body is saying. And if people did that every single day, even five minutes, if they don't have time, five minutes a day where you know, let's say you like coffee and you have a sip of, you have a cup of coffee in the morning. Can you do that and not also look at Instagram and not also check your emails and just start to pay attention? And very quickly, you will start to learn things about yourself and then you become less dependent on all these external voices. Hey, listen, I'm a podcaster like you, Louis. I love listening to podcasts. I love making podcasts. But at the same time, for me, it's very important to have time where I'm not listening and I'm listening to myself and not external experts. Does that all make sense?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

When you talk about happiness though, you say contentment, control and alignment. What does control mean with happiness?

Yeah, so let me be a bit clearer. Okay, so contentment are what are the things that you can do in your life that give you that sense of peace and calm and contentment. That's what the contentment arm of the three sort of ingredient model is. I mentioned alignment and then control. Control is an interesting word. This is not about controlling the world. The world is fundamentally uncontrollable. And if we try and control the world, we're going to really struggle. But this is about a sense of control. What are the things that you can do in your life that give you a sense of control? We know from the scientific research, Lewis, that people who have a strong sense of control the healthier, the happier, they have better relationships, they earn more money, right? A sense of control is really important. And arguably, Louis, I think it's never been more important because if we look around today, the news headlines, what's going on in social media, the toxicity, the division that exists, or we think exists in society, I think regularly doing things that give us a sense of control is one of the most important things you can do. Right, so that little morning ritual I do every day, that grounds me. And it means even if the news headlines are toxic that day, or I have loads of emails, or the, you know, things are gonna go wrong in life, right? That's just the way it is. It grounds me and it centers me, so I'm better able to face the friction and the problems that may exist in life if I have that sense of control. So I think it's really important and I think that's one of the most powerful things that morning routines and rituals give people is a sense of control in a fundamentally uncontrollable world. 100%.

And if people are trying to change their life, there's a stat out there that says studies show that 88% of people who set New Year's resolutions fail within the first couple of weeks. I would probably relate that to anyone setting any goal at any time in life. It's like, okay, I'm gonna lose the weight, I'm gonna start doing this daily, I'm gonna do whatever. a lot of people seem to fail pretty quickly after they realize how hard it is to make lasting change. You're talking about the habits of lasting change. It just seems like it's so hard to reinvent yourself from an old way of being that is doing things for years and all of a sudden change it into becoming someone new. There's a quote you have that says the reason most people are unable to make changes that last for good is because they never actually address the underlying reasons behind their habits in the first place. This means that any changes they try and make are ultimately in conflict with the state of their lives and the person they believe themselves to be. And as a medical doctor for 23 years, someone who studied this for a long time, I'm assuming the goal of a doctor is to get to the root cause, or some doctors is to find the root cause. How did you learn to apply that to life, to making lasting change, not just towards a disease or medical condition that people were having, and how can people do that in life?

The way I've learned to apply it is when I realized that people coming to a doctor's surgery for help are just people, right? All of us are looking for help in our lives. All of us are looking to transform our lives, to have more peace, to have more contentment. So going back to what I said earlier, right? I've always wondered why has this person ended up in my practice today?

Yes.

Right? Why did they end up today? Why did they not come in three weeks ago? Why did they not come in three months ago? Assuming that there were problems there, something had shifted so much in their life that they thought, okay, now I need help.

Right?

But what I've learned over the years, and I think one of the reasons I've learned this is I've had some quite unique experiences as a doctor, which I'll explain in just a minute. But I believe that actually, like this change that we're all looking for, when I was able to help my patients make changes, it wasn't just their health that got better. They also became happier. They became more contented. Their relationships got better. So I don't see his health as separate from life. Like it's part of life. I don't see health, happiness and relationships as separate. I think they're all part of the same thing. And if you improve one of them, you improve all of them. And that's what's always driven me as a doctor. So yes, you've alluded to something that's really important, that not all doctors look for root causes because we're not taught to.

No, we're taught to treat the symptom.

We really are. And we hear this on podcasts. But people, I still don't think understand how we're trained. We are trained to hear what a patient has going on with them and all these symptoms. And we're trained to recognize patterns. Oh, that set of symptoms means depression. That set of symptoms means the autoimmune disease lupus. That set of symptoms means migraine. And basically we're taught to make the diagnosis. Once we can make the diagnosis, then we can start the treatment. And the treatment usually is a pharmaceutical drug. Oh, it's a migraine, let me give you a migraine drug. Oh, it's an autoimmune disease, let me give you an autoimmune drug.

You know, whatever it might be. But I quickly realized- When did you.

Realize that doubt's not the best way to go about healing? I've always had a slight discontentment throughout my career in the early days that we were just suppressing symptoms. It never made sense to me. I thought, why am I just giving this person like a drug? A Band-Aid.

A Band-Aid.

And I'll tell you one of the most powerful days to me was I was in general practice in the UK. I'd seen maybe 45 patients that day. It was a busy day. You know, we would have 10 minutes appointments. So it's a quick tell me while you're feeling.

Yeah. Let me assess, open up your tongue and say, ah, boom, get something. Okay, you have this, here's antibiotic, here's.

This drug, here's whatever. yeah. And for whatever reason, at the end of the day, I sat back, I was exhausted. I looked at my clinic list and I said, Rangan, how many people have you really helped today? Like, really helped? And I went through the list and hand on heart, like this, I thought, I've only helped 20% of people, like, really helped them. The other 80%. Yeah, I was kind to, I was courteous. I did my job. But I don't feel I really helped them. I felt that I just put a band-aid on their symptom or I just referred them off for a test. I was doing my best within that system, but it didn't feel right to me. I thought, I can't practice like this for the next 40 years. There must be something more I can do.

And you probably didn't go into medicine to live that life. You probably said, I want to help people heal. Yeah.

Like truly heal. What is the root cause? And then I had quite a, an incredible experience in 2015 and 2017. I, you know, this is part of this journey. My dad dies in 2013. I'm on this journey of trying to find out who I am. I come to America to lots of conferences to learn things that I think we're not taught at medical school. Like, I want to learn more tools to help my patients. I started applying them with my patients.

Root cause stuff.

Root cause stuff. Like, root cause stuff. And I love it. I think this is why I went into medicine. Like, this is properly helping people. And then I got the opportunity to make my own sort of primetime shows for BBC One television, where I had a series for a few years called Doctor in the House. And that series now has been seen in 70 countries around the world. I think some of the episodes are still on YouTube. But essentially, there were people who were sick. They were under doctors. they were on pills and I went to live alongside them for four to six weeks.

Wow.

And it's still the proudest thing I've done in my career, Louis. I helped a lady put her type 2 diabetes into remission in just 30 days. That was back in 2014. I helped a lady with panic attacks reduce them by 70 to 80% in just six weeks. I think 48-year-old lady with savim menopausal symptoms who didn't want hormones, that was her choice. I, in six weeks, helped her virtually eliminate all of her symptoms. And the list goes on, but all of it was done with nutrition, lifestyle, and mindset. I didn't use any drugs. And I feel that show was groundbreaking in what it showed. And I've often wondered, Louis, why do I have this view of the human body? Why do I write about relationships? And in this new book, I write about life. But your relationship to life is gonna change your health because I don't see these things as separate because when I was filming that series, I got to see stuff with these families that you would never see in practice. I was staying with them, like sometimes overnight in their house, which is pretty remarkable, right?

In the UK specifically, yeah?

Yeah, right. So I was there and I would see things like, oh, how is a husband and a wife interacting with each other? Oh, there's some stress there. Yeah. Like even if I had more time in my consultation room, they may never tell me that information. I got to see how every single input in their life is impacting their symptoms. You can't separate health from the rest of your life. It's one and the same. And I think in medicine, we try and separate it, but you can't. And so I saw this stuff and I saw How they view the world, how they deal with conflict, what kind of foods they're eating, what time do they go to bed, how do they talk to each other? Oh, these things are all important. And so I got a real window into people's lives that I think is giving me quite a unique view that most doctors don't get.

How many physical symptoms or diseases do you think arise from relationship and lifestyle challenges, not nutrition related, but more relationship deficiencies.

I can't give you a percentage, right? Because I haven't done a study where I can give you an accurate percentage. Sure, sure. So what can I say? I can say that I believe it's a lot more common than people think, right? If you have relationship conflicts in your life, Many people do in some level. I'm not saying you're ready for a divorce necessarily, but if there's conflict and I was going to say a close relationship, but frankly any relationship, it does impact your health.

It manifests in your body.

100%. And there's an obvious way to make it and a less obvious way to make that case. The obvious way is, listen, one of the reasons, as you've already pointed out, that I write about, One of the reasons we can't make change that lasts is because we haven't, we try and change the behavior without understanding the role that behavior plays in our life. Okay? I think it's such a, it's such an obvious point, but we don't think about it. We go straight to the behavior. Okay? In January, we go straight to alcohol. I want to reduce how much alcohol I'm having or how much sugar I'm having. But here's the problem, Louis. How many people can do dry January? quite a lot. How many people can quit sugar in January? Quite a lot. How many people do that and then they actually make long-term changes? The number's a lot less. Often by the end of February, most people are back to where they were in December. And here's, let's make it really obvious. If you've got a lot of stress in your life and alcohol is your way of dealing with the stress, Right? Because it's an effective way of managing stress, at least in the short term. You can white knuckle it for a few weeks and stop drinking, but you're going to return back to your previous behaviours unless one of two things happens. Number one, either the stress in your life goes down. If the stress in your life goes down, great, you may need less alcohol. If the stress in your life doesn't go down, if you don't find an alternative behaviour to manage that stress, but something else to leave the stress, maybe the gym or something else, you're going to go back to the alcohol. So let's relate that to what you were asking about relationships. If you're having conflict in your relationships, it doesn't feel good. It's a huge source of stress that that emotional stress you will neutralize. You have to neutralize it in some way. Right? And this is something I think people really don't get. And it's one of the big themes in this book is that emotional stress is not neutral. You're having conflict with your partner. What do we often do? We don't feel good, we go to sugar, we go to alcohol, we spend three hours scrolling Instagram trying to find some kind of inspiration. Those things are a downstream consequence of the emotional stress that's going on because of your relationship issues. And that's why if we can repair our relationships, learn how to communicate better, be open, be honest, not give accusations, but share how we're feeling, and if we can successfully manage conflicts, you will naturally find your behavior start to improve. And I think this is the missing piece in behavior change. We don't think about the root cause of our behaviors. We just want to change the behavior. which is why it usually doesn't last in the long term.

Wow. And when you were treating patients.

How.

Much would you say were people's symptoms related to relationship conflicts in their life, whether it be with their parents or their boss or a friend or whatever it might be, a family member or something? How much of it was once they started to have the courage to speak up or once they were able to break themselves free of a a situation in a relationship or create a boundary in their life or whatever it might be, create new alignment with that person. How much of the patients you saw had emotional pain that flared up in the symptoms on their body, that once they started to make the emotional changes in the boundaries, the alignment in relationships, those symptoms went away?

So many. Really? Yeah, yeah, honestly, that's at least three or four cases in this book where I outline patients I've seen. Let me give you two examples. Okay, so a few years ago, and tell me if this is directly answering your question or not, Louis, but a few years ago, I saw this lady. I'm going to guess 45 to 50 years old. I can't remember her exact age. And she had high blood pressure. And she'd seen previous doctors and they were trying to treat it. She didn't like the medications. She was getting side effects. she started to see me. And I was, I think that high blood pressure doesn't just happen. It's a response to other things, right? To events in life. Yeah. You know, it's a, you know, it's hypertension. It's too much tension.

It's not a genetic thing, huh?

It's not a- I think in most cases it's not. There can be a genetic predisposition, but- But you can override that.

You can usually override it.

And if we just think around it through the lens of the stress response, okay, let's just take a- I'll come back to your question, but let's just look at it from a slightly different angle. We know that stress is responsible for maybe 80 to 90% of what we see as doctors in some way.

Come on, really?

Yeah, in some way because chronic stress affects every single organ system in the body. Can I explain why?

Yes.

Okay.

Sorry, say that again.

80 to 90% of what a doctor sees in any given day is in some way related to stress.

That is crazy.

Yeah, that was in an editorial in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association, back in 2010. 2013. That's where that was published, right? And what's remarkable about that is once you understand that and you understand the stress response, you can see it everywhere. So we have to understand what is the stress response? What is it there for? While the stress response is fundamentally there to keep us safe. So let's take a trip down like our evolutionary history. Let's imagine 200,000 years ago, we're hanging out in our hunter-gatherer tribe. We're getting on with our day. We're doing our stuff. okay? We're in a nice state of relaxation and we're just getting along with our, we're just getting on with life. And then let's say in the corner of your eye, you see a wild predator starting to approach the camp. Okay, in an instant, your stress response kicks into gear because that's what it's there to do. Now, what happens when your stress response kicks into gear? All kinds of things happen. Your blood sugar starts to go up so that we can deliver more glucose to your brain. your blood pressure starts to go up, so more oxygen can go around your body. Your amygdala, which is the emotional part of your brain where all these emotional reactions come from, that goes on high alert. So you're hypervigilant for all the threat around you. Okay, your blood becomes more prone to clotting. Why? Because if that predator was to cut you and attack you instead of bleeding to death, It's going to cut and that's going to save your life, right? These are appropriate responses.

To stress.

To stress when you're in danger. The problem we have in the modern world in which we live is that our stress response has no longer been activated by wild predators. It's been activated by the state of our daily lives, our email inboxes, the three social media channels we're trying to keep up to date with, the news headlines, the fact that we may have moved away from family for career opportunities, but then we're trying to bring up kids by ourselves and look after elderly parents by ourselves. These all are stressors on the body. And so those short-term things which help you when you really are in danger, they become really problematic if they're day in, day out. So if you're getting chronically stressed by the state of your life, which many people are, okay, we know chronic stress is through the roof these days, right? Your blood sugar going up for 30 minutes is not a problem. If it's going up every single day, it's going to cause you to be tired, weight gain around the middle, and ultimately type 2 diabetes. If your blood pressure goes up for half an hour to help you deliver more oxygen around your body, or it goes up in your spinning class, that's not a problem. But if that's happening day in, day out to the state of your life, that high blood pressure is what causes heart attacks and strokes. Do you get what I'm saying? It works in the short term. It's problematic in the long term. What about what I said about the amygdala? Right? The emotional part of our brain. If there's a lion that's approaching you, you want that to be on high alert, right? You want to be hypervigilant. if you're walking back to your car on Friday night in downtown LA and you think someone's following you, you want to be on high alert and hypervigilant. But if that's happening to the state of your daily life, well, that's what we call anxiety. So the stress response can affect everything in your body. And so this lady who I saw who had high blood pressure, I helped her change her diet. I helped her change her lifestyle, but it wasn't budging. And I always believed that there is a root cause for everything, and my job is to help my patient find the root cause for them. And we were chatting, I was getting to know her over a few weeks and months. I really spent a lot of time on my patients. I like to get to know them and find out about their lives. And then it became clear to me that there was an issue that she wasn't dealing with, right? She had got divorced. a few years ago because her ex-husband had cheated on her and she couldn't let it go. She was so wound up talking about it, she basically couldn't forgive him. She held on to this resentment, Louis. She's like, no, well, it was his fault. My life is bad because of what happened. He did this to me. And over time, I built up trust with her, and I said, Hey, listen, I understand that this must have been really, really difficult, but that was in the past and you're allowing that past event now to affect your future and your present. I want to help you try and let go of what happened because I believe that you holding onto this resentment might be contributing to your high blood pressure. and there's actually research on this. Professor Fred Luskin from Stanford. You should have him on your show. He's great. He's done all the research. It's the Stanford Forgiveness Project. His stuff is fantastic. And he has shown that when people forgive, your blood pressure can go down. Wow. Your anxiety can go down. Your depression can go down. Forgiveness has been shown to improve the quality of your relationships, improve your self-esteem. So I helped her. She didn't want to see a therapist. I went through various things with her and various exercises. And over a period of a few months, she learned to let go, right, and forgive her ex-husband. And at hand on heart Lewis, her blood pressure came down. -Crazy. -Right. So, this is one of the biggest-.

There is no drug you had to give her.

-That has to give any drugs.

-She did not have to change her diet. She did not have to... It was just an internal reflection and either opening her mind or opening her heart to the ability to forgive.

-Yeah. And trying to help her understand that it does not mean What her ex-husband did was okay. I'm not saying it was okay or it was good. I'm saying you're allowing that. And I say that with compassion. I get it's difficult. It can't be nice to have been cheated on by your husband. I get that. But what I helped to see, and it took me a bit of time, but I really try and talk to my patients with an open heart, and I think they trust me. and I helped her realize that it wasn't helping it anymore. It was a one-off event. And, Lewis, I remember when you last came on my show, right? When your last book was out, we spoke about forgiveness. I actually write a little bit about that in my new book because you said something to me that I've never forgotten. And I'm sure many of your listeners know your history and what happened to you as a little boy and the trauma you faced. And you said to me in on my podcast, you said words to this effect. Yes, I had to forgive the person who perpetrated the trauma on you, but you said I also had to forgive myself for allowing that pain to affect you for like 25 years. And that stopped me in my tracks. I was like, oh wow, Lewis didn't only have to forgive, well, I shouldn't say had to, no one has to do anything. You chose and I'm sure it was really difficult, and I'm sure it is difficult from time to time, but you had to move on and then forgive yourself. And people don't realize how important forgiveness is.

Yeah.

Like, I really believe it, that people are walking around with resentment and they're holding grudges on people. And, you know, I've, I spoke about stress before, but we can think about stress in two different ways, Louis. There's The external stress, right, from our workload. Oh, my boss needs me to do these 10 activities. I don't have time. I've got to rush around. There's traffic. I understand that. There is external stress. But I would argue that most of our stress is internally generated by how.

We- Interpret things, yeah.

How we interpret things. And once you understand that, that's when your life changes. for the better. When you realize that most events in life are neutral, what determines that impact on us is the perspective we take on that event. That's when your life really starts to change. And that's when my life changed. Yeah.

And going back to one of the first things you talked about, learning how to trust yourself, like get the wisdom and the knowledge and, you know, learn from experts in science and research and examples. But at the end of the day, you gotta listen to what you need based on the experts or what's available out there. You've gotta take action on what your intuition is telling you or what your body or your mind, your heart is telling you. And I don't think you can fully trust yourself unless you learn to forgive yourself.

Yeah, 100%. And I want to say, Louis, if anyone's listening right now or watching and they're pushing back, because I've realized that on my Instagram, I try and share this kind of helpful information with people like you do. And whenever I bring up forgiveness, it's amazing to see the response. Some people love it and other people push back.

Yeah, I had Dr. Ramani on. I don't know if you know Dr. Ramani.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had her on mine as well.

And she says, maybe you don't forgive. Like the narcissist who's like just taking years of your life, right? And she's like, it gives me peace not to forgive. And that was the first time I'd heard that. and maybe there's something too, like forgiving when you feel ready and not forcing forgiveness.

For sure.

If you're feeling frustrated or maybe it's helping you actually create a boundary for that season of life, okay? And however you need to forgive in your mind or whatever that looks like. But for her forgiveness of someone who's kind of taken a lot of years from her life, she said, maybe you don't forgive in her mind. Yeah.

And I've heard Dr. Ramani say that. and I think Dr. Romani is great and she's helping so many people and I have a huge amount of respect for people and their views and their opinions. I can only share what I've seen with patients and what I've experienced myself. And I think we misunderstand forgiveness. I think some people think that forgiveness means saying that that was okay. It doesn't mean that. It's saying that I'm no longer gonna allow that to have a hold on me. It's totally different. And like there's so much I wanna say on forgiveness, though, is because I feel that I feel so light and free these days because I've learned to forget.

Let me ask you this question. As a medical doctor and a researcher, what is the science of forgiveness? What actually happens to the mind, the heart, and the body when you forgive? What is that crossover of like, I have a grudge on myself or someone else, and then I choose in a moment and it integrates in my body and I forget.

It's a stressor. It's a stressor. When we think about stress and the stress response, we are conditioned to think about external stresses. But holding on to resentment is an internal stressor, right? So you're still activating your stress response by feeling it could have been different. They shouldn't have done that. That person has wronged me, right? When you change your relationship with that past event, which has happened, it's no longer happening, right? It happened in the past. But by keeping it active within you, it is causing you internal stress by you not being able to let go. I passionately believe that the happiest people are those who can move on and let go. Now, some people, Louis, will say that some things are unforgivable. And you may be better placed to answer this than me, based upon your experience. But we've both had a very powerful lady on our shows, Edith Higa.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm coming up to 500 episodes of my show, and people ask me, as they probably did to you, which is the most impactful episode, right? And I can't really answer that because it's like picking a favourite child. Like, I've had so many that have had a profound impact on me. But if I had to choose, the one episode that rises to the top is the first conversation I had with Iyad Eiga.

She's amazing.

Yeah, because here's the situation. Let's relate this to forgiveness, right? Why did that... I literally was not the same person after that conversation as I was before. I remember afterwards I felt, I've changed. I have changed in those two hours. And why was that? So for people who don't know who Edith is, let me just briefly summarize. When I spoke to her, she was 93 years old. When she was 16 years old, growing up in Eastern Europe, her family gets a knock on the door. That's a day where she's excited about going on a date that evening with her boyfriend. What dress am I going to wear tonight? They're going to knock on the door. They're put on a train and they go to Auschwitz concentration camp. Within two hours of getting to Auschwitz concentration camp, both of her parents are murdered. And I remember one of the first things Edith said to me was, I never forgot the last thing my mum said to me, which is, Edith, nobody can ever take from you the contents that you put inside your mind. Powerful, right? And so the same day that her parents are murdered, she's a 16-year-old girl, they know that she's a dancer. She gets asked to dance for the senior prison guards. And she said to me, Rongen, listen, when I was dancing in Auschwitz, I wasn't in Auschwitz. In my mind, I was in Budapest Opera House. I had a beautiful blue dress on. There was a full house. There was an orchestra playing and I thought, wow, this is incredible, right? She's reframing her experience in... Wow. And then she said to me, Louis, whilst I was in Auschwitz, I started to see the prisoners. Sorry, I started to see the prison guards as prisoners. They weren't free in their mind, right? I'm free in my mind, they're not living their life. And the final... She said so much to me, right? But the thing that she finished off with, which I think about on most days, she said, Rongen, listen, I've lived in Auschwitz, and I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own mind. Now, when she can say that, having lived through That inspires me. If I'm ever struggling with something in my life, I go, Hey, Rangan, you know what? Edith could reframe events in Auschwitz. I think you can reframe events in Auschwitz.

Yeah, yeah.

And actually, I think I asked her, or I've heard her say this, is it possible to forgive Hitler? I think she's forgiven Hitler. Because I think this is where the misunderstanding with forgiveness really triggers people. She's not saying what he did was right in any shape or form. She's simply saying, I'm no longer going to allow what he did to affect me.

Yes.

And it's a big difference.

Yeah.

And I know it can feel hard. I have my own way of dealing with forgiveness, which I'll share. But can I just tell you one more case that I wrote about? Cause I think it really speaks powerfully to this, and I think you'll be interested, Lewis. I can't remember which chapter I start with this story, but this is one of the saddest cases in my career for me personally. Again, it was a lady, I think, late 40s or early 50s, who lived a really healthy lifestyle. Okay. She was careful with her diet. She moved her body regularly. She went to sleep on time every night. She. She had the good lifestyle. She had no genetic history of cancer in her family, to my knowledge. But she got diagnosed with ovarian cancer in her late 40s, which is really serious. And she died sometime afterwards. Okay? I remember because I'd been seeing her for years. I can remember this so well. When she was, I think, 20 years old, she was in a new marriage. They had a young baby and her husband cheating on her. And they ended up getting divorced. She could never move on from that, right? She couldn't talk about it. Her family and friends knew that you can't bring up his name and all.

That hurt her so much.

Yeah, so this is like 25 years on, she's still holding on to what happened when she was 20. Now listen, I have compassion for that. I understand that must be awful. But what I tried to help her with for a few years, I tried to say, Hey, listen, this is before the diagnosis. She was my patient for a while. I was like, listen, I don't think this is helping you. Like, I understand that happens, but I don't think this is helping you. At some point, I think this will like, have an impact on your health. Now, look, I can't say for sure that her holding on to that contributed to her cancer. I can't say that. I can't say that. I would be going one step too far. But what can I say? If you look at the scientific research, there is ample research showing us that people who struggle to forgive and let go, people who hold on to resentments, have an increased risk of things like autoimmune disease and cancer. That is there in the research. There's multiple research papers showing this. Gabor Mate talks about this. He's detailed all the research in his book, the Myth of Normal. Now let me be really clear, Louis, of what I'm saying. I'm not putting blame on anyone. I don't blame people, Louis. My goal is to come from my heart and to help people. the reason I share this information, even though I know people will be pushing back and saying, what are you saying? But she did it to herself. No, I'm not saying that. If we don't understand, Louis, the role that our emotions play in our health, we're not motivated to do anything about it. Right? It's easy to go, no, I'll just keep eating an organic whole food diet. I'll be going to the gym. I have seven hours of sleep a night. and my life will be good. I'm like, Hey, listen, I'm all for eating well, moving well, sleeping well. I'm all for that. That is very, very important. But don't neglect your inner emotional world. Right. That can play a role. And so for that lady, to be really clear, I cannot say that her resentment and her inability to move on caused her cancer. I can't say that. But listen, cancer, like all chronic diseases, is multifactorial. There's never just one thing. There's genetics, there's your environmental exposures, there's pollution, there's your social status, there's food, there's movement, there's sleep, there's stress. But there's also your emotions. So I think we can say, based upon the research and what clinicians like me have seen, you see certain patterns. when you've been practicing for enough years. And I have seen this pattern before in certain chronic conditions. And so I honestly, I share that because I want to help people. I'm simply saying, if you're holding on to resentment, at some point when you're ready, yeah, feel the resentment, feel the anger, feel the frustration, but don't stay there. If you need help, get help if you can access a therapist to help you get a therapist. But if you can't, there is still plenty that you can do.

It sounds like you don't want to stuff the emotions, but you don't want to stay in the emotions. You got to learn to let it out in some healthy, conscious way, hopefully not hurting someone else in the process of your anger or resentment or frustration or whatever it might be. But you can't stay there also. So you can't spiritually bypass the emotion and just say that didn't affect me. if it did, let it out and don't stay there. You don't, don't keep re-living the trauma for years to come.

I think one of the things we see these days, because there's a growing awareness now of our emotions, as many, you talk about it on your show all the time. There's many people talking about this in public. I think what's happened is that for some people, they go to, oh, I get it now. This is why I'm the way I am. This is because of my mum or my dad. this is how I was brought up. And they stay there and then they start to blame their parents. And I think that's unhelpful. Maybe you have to go through that, but you can't stay there. At some point you have to come out the other side and go, okay, I've now learned why I have these triggers and reactions. Now let me move to the next part where I process them and move on. And I tell you a very simple technique that's helped me, Larissa, I don't know if it will help others, but it certainly has helped me is a few years ago, I chose to take on the belief, and again, I use those words carefully. I chose, I don't have to take on this belief, but I've chosen to take on this belief in life. I believe that every single person is doing the best that they can based upon their experiences. And so let me just elaborate on that a little bit, because it can be quite triggering for people that I choose to believe that if I was that other person, I'd be behaving in exactly the same way as them. Why? Because if I was that person with their parents and the bullying they had as a child and the friends and the influences they had when they were growing up and the toxic boss they had when they were 17 or whatever it might be, if I had their life, I'd probably be thinking and acting in exactly the same way as them. Now, it doesn't mean I'm saying that what they're doing is right. I'm not saying that. But once you adopt that approach to life, like you can feel this inner calm, Lewis, because your initial way of interacting with life is with compassion. It's trying to understand why is this person behaving that way. Now, it doesn't mean it's easy and it doesn't mean that what they're doing is not abhorrent or wrong. But I choose to take that approach to life, and it's really, really helped me because now my first instinct, if someone's attacking me online, if something's happening, if someone disagrees with me, my first instinct now, because I've trained it for years, is, oh, I wonder why they think so differently to me. And you just don't generate all this internal stress that affects people in the first place. And once you start interacting with life like that, I think forgiveness becomes a lot easier because then you're like, oh, if I was that person, I'd be doing the same as them. Oh, their dad cheated. They grew up seeing that. It doesn't make it right, but I think it makes it easier. And again, do you know when I learned that the most? Right? Have you heard of John McEnroe?

I'm thinking John McEnroe, the tennis player.

No, no, no. So John McEnroe, I had a wonderful conversation with him on my podcast about five years ago, Louis. You would love talking to him, I promise you. He used to be one of Britain's most wanted criminals. Wow. Right, so he was locked up in Europe's highest security prison with two life sentences, right? With all the terrorists he was locked up there.

And he got out.

He got out.

Wow.

And he's like, he's one of the loveliest people I know. Right? I would leave him alone with my children. I think he's the most wonderful person, but I spoke to him for two hours and he went through his life story with me. And he told me about his upbringing, that his dad wasn't around, and that the only male figures in his life were armed robbers. And they came rounds, they had fancy clothes, and they drove nice cars, and they had a code of conduct. They treated women well. like they had their own code of conduct. And I remember there was so much in that conversation because he's now a free man inspiring kids all around the world to get into physical activity. It's an incredible story. But I remember when he left my house after recording on the podcast, oh, my mind was blown. And I saw my wife in the kitchen. I said, Babe, you know what? If I was John, if I had lived John's life, I think I'd be in jail right now. Like I genuinely thought if I had his childhood, I would be in prison.

Or dead.

Or dead. And it really helps me understand that, look, we all see the world differently. It's very easy to judge. And I get it. Some things are horrible and really traumatic, and you're gonna probably need help to process that. But I'm saying there is a cost of not processing that. So let me go back to what you said about Dr. Romani. who I really admire and respect. Yeah, she's great. I don't have the experience that she has with narcissistic individuals. I don't. So I, you know, she has every reason to believe what she believes. My belief based on my 23 years of clinical experience of what I've seen with patients, what I've seen in the research and what I've experienced myself is that if you can learn the art of letting go of the past and moving on. Maybe you don't like the term forgiveness.

Yes.

So I think that can be triggering for some people because they feel it's like I'm forgiving that person for what they did. I don't mean- We don't forgive it.

But let it go and move on.

Let go and move on is how I describe it in this book, right? I think you do not realize the lightness in your being that exists on the other side. I mean, Lucas, why don't you- I mean, If you don't mind, I'd love to know from you. You have acknowledged publicly on many occasions how you struggle with this for years, but you have moved through that. How has that been for you when you weren't able to forgive? And now, would you say that you can forgive now? Yeah.

And I mean, the difference is freedom. It's peace. I think you're a prisoner of the past when you don't forgive. And there's, There's a reward for that as well. Like you get to be righteous, you get to be justice, you get to be right and them wrong, you get to be, you get validation from people having sympathy for you and understanding and understanding how something is not okay. And that was horrible what that person did and all these different things. You get rewards. But I just feel like the reward of forgiveness and setting yourself free is far greater than any other reward you could get. by holding your grudge.

Exactly.

And holding a grudge and being angry at someone or an event or the government or the world or the weather, whatever, for ruining something in your life or hurting something in your life or causing a disruption in your life. And however drastic or small it might be, holding a grudge onto that, that's a cost. There's a big cost. There's a big price you'll pay. There's a big price you'll pay.

But you're validating in society for holding air. as you say, like, if you hold on and you go, yeah, they shouldn't have posted that post. They're wrong. Your friends will often support you. Yeah, they shouldn't have done it. But what we don't. And I used to be that person, so I'm not judging. I just know what it's like to not live like that anymore. Right. Chapter five in this book is called take less offense. And I say many of us have an over reliance on being right. And I make the case in that book. In fact, I talk about the George Floyd death. right? That's how I opened that channel, you know, and I kind of explain how it affected me and then what I chose to share on social media and how I got attacked for it. Because if you remember when the George Floyd death made headline news around the world, it was during COVID It was. We were in lockdowns. I was in the UK. We were in a lockdown and this event happened. Horrible event. tragic event, just to be really clear. And it brought up all kinds of feelings for me. Now, I'm a Brit, right? I was born and brought up in the UK. I've got Indian immigrant parents. I'm not American, right? I haven't lived in America and know the history of this country, right? So I understand that, right? I have to say this is, I'm just watching it from the outside, but nonetheless, whatever the narrative was at the time, brought up things for me, and I wanted to share my view on social media, right? Like you have a large platform and I felt like I wanted to contribute to this public voice. I don't always comment on public things. In fact, it's quite rare for me, but I felt like I wanted to. I thought about some of the things that my family had experienced when they came to the UK. And I also thought about something my wife told me when she was a little girl and living in the north of England, she can still remember one afternoon when a local nationalist party threw a brick through their window and told them to get out. And she was just watching TV, I think, and then suddenly a brick smashes the window and comes in. That is traumatic. That is really scary. So two or three days after George Floyd's death, I shared a well thought out post on Instagram. I explained my perspective, and I also shared the impact that racism can have and some of the things that came up for me. And I shared that example of what happened to my wife. And there was a small section who started to take offense at what I said and were attacking me and saying, you shouldn't be commenting, this is not your place, this is a black issue, this is not an Asian issue. And initially I was like, oh, have I done something wrong here? like I was trying to put out a really careful, kind, considered post to try and contribute to this big public conversation. Initially, I thought I did something wrong, and then I meditated on it, Louis. I thought about it, and I thought, wait a minute, I'm not signed up to any code of conduct that determines how I can or cannot react to the death of an individual 3000 miles away. I am perfectly entitled to share my truth the way I see it. And I kind of feel that many of us these days are walking around taking offense to everything. And it comes at a cost, right? Because people need to understand, as I've learned to understand over the last few years, is that nothing is inherently offensive. Something happens, someone shares something. If something was inherently offensive, every single person would get offended. The fact that every single person is not getting offended means it's not that thing that is offensive. It's something within you that's being activated by that external event.

Yes.

And once you understand that, because I think most of the world don't understand that, they think an event happens, I have every right to take offense to that. Now, people have got every right to do whatever they want. I'm not trying to change what people do. People can decide what they do. I'm trying to make the case in that chat so that there is an impact. If you are someone who feels that you're wronged in your life everywhere and everything's against you and everything is offensive, you've got to understand that that is coming at a cost to you. You are generating emotional stress in your body that is not neutral. maybe the reason you can't make change that lasts in your life, right? It's because you're walking around getting offended at everyone. Yeah. And if you really think about it, we're living in a world of 8 billion people, Louis. 8 billion people are not going to share the same view as you. And to think that they will is almost a little bit arrogant. The question is, why do you need people to share the same view as you? One thing that's been transformative in my marriage, Louis, is when I let go of the need to be right. I'm like, I don't need to be right. I don't need to win this argument with my wife for a while. She's got her view. I've got my view. It's cool. Yeah.

Is it better to be right or be happy?

Exactly. I would say one of the most important things you can do in life for your inner well-being, which will impact your physical well-being, And that's the thing that interests me. That's why as a doctor, I wrote this book, because this inner world impacts our physical health. And I still don't think we realize it enough. But there is a cost. There's a cost to thinking the world is against you. And that, you know, you can choose to not take offense. You can choose to look at, let's take social media as a prime example. Someone posts something that you don't like and you don't agree with. You could take a pause there and instead of criticizing or reacting straight away and going, that person has no right and you're entitled to do that, but it has a cost. You can train yourself to go, oh, why does that person have such a different worldview to me? What has gone on in their life that has led to them having that? What might I be able to understand here? and I call it in that chapter, adopting a learner mindset, right? In every situation in life, what can I learn here? Not how can I be right and prove my point, what can I learn here? I've applied that in my own life, like, as you know, the cost of having a public profile these days is you have a lot of opinions about your ability, and whether you're a great podcast host or a rubbish podcast host or a, do you know what I mean? We have opinions about us. because of the way the world is these days. And I think learning how to deal with criticism, again, is one of the most important things we can do. Like, I used to really struggle with criticism. Like, I'd wanna push it away. Now I don't limit it. Now I've learned to create that gap between stimulus and response. And anyone can learn to do that. You just need to practice. It's a skill that you can get better at. So if someone is criticizing me now, I go through, well, I do a couple of things. If I'm feeling triggered, I know myself well enough now to go, ah, wrong and this is not the time. Okay? You need to ground yourself, calm down before you start thinking about this, because at the moment you're stressed out when you're emotional. And that's very rare these days, but that would happen in the past. And when I'm calm, I go, wow, Is there any truth here? And sometimes I'll be like, that's interesting. Yeah, maybe I could have praised my post differently. Maybe I can learn something and next time I post about this topic, I can improve.

Yeah.

It's really freeing then you're learning. And if I think that there's no truth to that, then I'm like, oh, actually it looks as though that guy's having a bad day and they're taking out their bad day on me. And then I open my heart. I go, wow, that can't be a nice feeling for that person. They're taking out their inner pain on me. I'm okay with that. They don't know me and I'm okay with that. Do you know what I mean? And it's why I'm so passionate, Lewis, about this, because I didn't used to be like this. I didn't. And then when I didn't, I found making change that lasts difficult because it's in conflict with who I was. But when you can cultivate this inner calm, and everyone can, your relationships will be better, your contentment will be better, you'll feel happier. And I'm telling you, having been a doctor for 23 years, your health will be better as well.

It sounds to me like a lot of these habits you're talking about, when people can implement them, they will have less stress in their life. And what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is that chronic stress is related to 70-80% of most disease. Is that accurate?

Let me phrase it slightly differently.

Yeah.

80-90% of what we see as doctors is in some way related to stress. It doesn't mean it's the only cause, but stress is playing a role.

And so if that's the case, if we can learn to navigate stress with more ease and not let it consume us chronically, maybe it's going to come, but then only a little bit a day, not every minute of the day for years. What are the top ways then to eliminate chronic stress so that it doesn't consume us and make us sick?

Yeah. So there's multiple ways that you can tackle stress, right? Because there are external stresses and internal stresses. So let's just break it down systematically for people so they can actually take action after this episode, right? And actually start to make changes. So, okay, let's take an example that I've seen patients talk to me about for years, okay? And maybe you can relate to this. They've been good in inverted commas with their behaviors all day and their eating well and they're resisting temptation for the sweets and whatever it might be. But at 8:30 p.m. on their sofa, they're watching TV and they feel like having ice cream. Can you relate to that?

Sure.

Yeah, it's very, very common. And people would say, Rangan, like, I don't get it. Like, I know sugar's bad for me, or this amount of sugar that I'm eating, too much is not helping me. But I can't stop eating ice cream in the evenings. So I created this little exercise called the three F's, which I would use with patients and I write about to help people understand their relationship with stress and with sugar. Okay. So the first F is feel, right? So, and Louis, you can maybe try this in your own life, but next time you find yourself In the evening on the sofa craving ice cream, I want you to have a pause. Before you get the ice cream, just have a pause. I go, what am I feeling here? Is this really physical hunger or is this emotional hunger? Right? It's a very simple question, but often we don't take that pause.

It feels like physical hunger.

Okay, fine. So let's say it's physical hunger.

But it's a, yeah, it's not though.

But it might be. It might be, and you might want it, and there's something wrong with it now and again, right? So it's not... The body's craving sugar. Yeah, but the more you ask yourself these questions, the more you start to trust yourself, right? So the first step is feel. What am I feeling? I actually, I don't know, I had a really big dinner. I'm not that hungry, but I just had a row with my partner, or I've been on Zoom calls all day and I haven't seen anyone or been out for a walk. This is a treat to myself. because all day I'll be doing things for other people. Okay, then go ahead and eat it, right? Go ahead and eat it. Next time it happens, do the first F and then go to the second F. So the first F is feel. What am I feeling? The second F is how does food feed the feeling? The second F is feed. Okay, so you've identified, let's say you've identified that you're stressed. You've had a row with your partner, you're stressed, and you've identified that when I feel stressed, ice scream makes me feel better because it does, at least in the short term.

Temporarily, yeah.

Right. Then you go, and so you're drawing that connection. Oh, wow. I'm having ice scream because I go to it when I'm feeling this stress. Okay, great. Now you have a degree of self-awareness that you may not have had before. And even simply having that awareness changes your relationship with that. events. Like there's good research on this, but it really does even being aware of what's driving your, what's driving your behavior changes your relationship with that trigger, right? And then the third F, which you can do the next time is find. Okay, now that I know what I'm feeling, the first F, right? Now that I know how food feeds that feeling, the second F, now the third F is fine. Can I find an alternative behavior to feed that feeling. Okay, so, oh, I'm feeling stressed because I've been on Zoom calls all day and I haven't had any time to myself and ice cream is going to make me feel better. Okay, what else could I do? Oh, well, I love yoga. I could do 10 minutes of yoga. Or I could go and run a bath. Yeah. And I could soak in a bath with a candle on. for 15 minutes. So you're still dealing with that feeling, but maybe in a more helpful way. And you can apply that 3F exercise to most things in life. Alcohol, too much time on social media, whatever it is, it's a very simple exercise. You know, my whole thing is I love to talk about the big ideas, but then I want to make it really practical for people so that they can actually apply that. So I think for many people, they're going to go, that's quite a useful exercise for me. Right? So that's one way that we can think about stress. I could talk to you about all kinds of stress reduction practices, like yoga, like journaling. I think breath work is one of the best, right? We overuse the word hack, I think these days, but breathing and changing the way we breathe, I think really does qualify as a hack. So a lot of people don't realize that the way they breathe is information for their body. Okay? So, I don't know if you saw this study, Lewis, or not, but it was from UCLA, actually, that 80% of office workers change the way that they breathe when looking at email. But they don't know they're doing it. So here's the thing, right? You're engaged in a task. Maybe there's loads of emails and you're on deadlines and you're rushing through them and you're focused. the way you breathe will often start to change. So what will happen? You'll breathe a little bit faster, you'll breathe more from your chest than your diaphragm, and your breathing will be a bit more shallow. Okay, so what does that do? That sends a signal to your brain that there's danger around me. It always comes back to the stress response, right? Your breathing signals are telling your brain, there's danger. And then that encourages you to stay breathing in that way. So you're literally sending stress signals back to your body from your brain because your brain thinks you're in danger. So if you can then be aware of that and consciously change the way that you breathe, and there's all kinds of techniques. One of my favorites is what I call the three, four, five breath. When you breathe in for three, you hold for four, and you breathe out for five. okay, very simple breath that I've been teaching my patients for years. And essentially anytime your out breath is longer than your in breath, you help to switch off the stress part of your nervous system and you activate the relaxation part of your nervous system, right? Very simple. One, three, four, five breath will take you 12 seconds. Five of them will take you a minute and you will literally change your state because if you slow your breathing down, you then send calm signals up to your brain and then they send carb signals back to your body. So I have a, you know, first thing I do each morning is a bit of meditation and breath work before I actually have my coffee. That's the first thing I do. And I do it as preemptive, right? So I do it to ground me in the morning, but I also learn about the breath so that if I get stressed in the day, I can just take a step back and do like two or three minutes of three, four, five breathing, and it really helps me. So It's one of many techniques that can help manage stress. Another one that people don't talk about enough that I've written about is touch. Like consensual affectionate touch is one of the best ways to lower your stress. Yeah. Right. So we've got in our skin something called CT afferent nerve fibers. It's so interesting.

Nerve fibers.

Nerve fibers. And these nerve fibers are optimally stimulated, check this out, at three to five centimetres per second. Right? Okay. So that's a stroking rate of three to five centimetres per second. Now here's the thing, no one's measuring their stroking rate, but this is how humans naturally stroke, right? So a mother stroking her baby will stroke at that rate. We're doing that. Yeah. And There's some research from the University of Liverpool, and I've interviewed this professor on my show, Professor Francis McGlone. He has shown that when we stimulate those CT afferent nerve fibers with this kind of light affectionate stroking, it sends a signal to the deepest, most primitive part of our brain, and levels of the stress hormone cortisol go down.

Wow. Right, so you can do this yourself too.

You can do this yourself, but it's better if someone else does it. Better with a partner. It can be done with a pet. Right? As well, like, so some people- By.

Taking your cat's paw and like rubbing it on you or just- no, but.

You get, like, there's benefits both ways. Like, even if you stroke someone else, you also get benefits. And what's really interesting, if you dive.

Into that research- I was gonna say I was gonna get my cat tonight and just learn.

It's a strokey bit. Yeah, but look, I've never had pets. Ah, yeah.

But people who do have pets- oh, it is so- It's calming. No, it's calming. When my cat, I was making the joke of like taking my cat's paw and rubbing it on my skin. as if she was petting me in the cat, but that, but actually when my cat lays on my chest and she purrs, it's so calming for my nervous system. It's just like, and she just kind of smiles at you a little bit and just rubbing her and almost giving her peace. She's purring into you. I don't know. It's just like a, yeah, very calming. It's almost meditative. When you're stroking someone, you know, on their, on their arm or your engaging in that with a pet, it's like very calming.

Yeah. And what's really interesting is that the research on these nerve fibers show that not only do we have them here on our forearms, right, and our arms, where we can stroke, you know, someone else like our partner or our child or whoever it might be, we also have a high concentration on our upper back. Now, this is fascinating, Louis, because why would there be a high concentration on our upper back? like, it's not as if we're gonna, like, stroke ourselves on our upper back. And these scientists think it just shows us how dependent as humans we are on other people. They're there to receive love and affection from others. Wow.

Right.

Which is really interesting when you think about it, like how we're made. Why would Evolution put these nerve fibers there?

Well, also probably, like, primitively, if you're hugging someone, maybe you're grabbing the back of their shoulders and you're like, we've generated that over time.

Yeah. So we don't know any of these things for sure. We have speculate, but it's really interesting. So, you mentioned to me, you know, how can you manage stress? And there's a million different ways, okay? I mentioned two things, breathwork, which people have heard about. I think affectionate touch people haven't heard about so much, but that is still what I would call dealing with the external stresser.

Still gonna go inside.

I think the best way is, this is what I've done, Lewis. Right? I started this practice a few years ago. I would do it in the evening. If I ever get triggered, emotionally triggered, like something's happened and I'm feeling bothered, and I couldn't do it in the moment back then, right? I wasn't, emotionally evolved. Emotionally evolved enough, emotionally literate enough to do it in the moment. I can do it in the moment now. I couldn't back then, but it's a skill that you can get better at if you practice. And this skill is free, right? You don't have to buy anything. You can just make a commitment to yourself that you are sick of being triggered by everything and you want to understand what is going on inside you that is driving these things. It will change your life. Once you start addressing these internal triggers, I'm telling you with 100% certainty. Yes, you might need a therapist to help you. But even if you can't access a therapist because of availability or cost, you can still do so much that will help you, right? So what I would do is in the evening, usually in a journal, I'd go, When was I triggered today? Ah, okay, that happened. That comment or the driver on the way to work. And then I'd go, why did that trigger you? What was it bringing up inside of you? And over time, you learn so much about yourself, Louis. You learn, ah, oh, that was to do with my upbringing, or, oh, that triggered me because, I don't know, like, I have a belief that all drivers should stay in their lane and not come out and cut people up or whatever it might be. Like, you start to learn about yourself or, you know, the. I write about, this is, this is like, I don't think I've shared this before. I, I. I use an example in one of the chapters in the book about criticism and how in my family growing up, like in Indian families, people can be quite direct. So I remember when I went to university in Edinburgh. So I grew up in the northwest of England. I went to university and I'd probably been enjoying a bit too much of the good life. you know, away from home, drinking, partying, eating late night kebabs, partying, whatever it might be. And I came home either a weekend or for the holidays. And my mum once said to me, like, what are you doing? Like, you're fat now. What are you even doing? Now, I want to be really clear here because that can be a very triggering statement for people in my family, the way I was brought up. my mum said that from a place of love. Like, I know that. I know that's not the case in every family. I know that. But in my family, it's. There's this great book by this Belgian psychologist called bachelor Mosquito called between us. And she talks about I cultures and we cultures. And, you know, very broadly speaking, you can. You could say West and East, like the more individualistic cultures, like, let's say, America or the UK are more. me cultures and I cultures, whereas Asian cultures are a bit more sort of we orientated. Right. So how I am is a reflection of the entire family, which has pros and cons. Yeah. That's pros and cons of both. Nothing's, like, all good or all bad. There's. There's benefits and there's downsides. And the truth is, I had put a bit of weight on. Right. So my mom's saying that to me because I knew her and because she very rarely said that to me, I was like, oh, I need to take some action here. Yeah. Right now, here's the thing. I also know that in some families that can be an abusive thing or husband could say that to their wife in an abusive way. So I'm not saying that that holds true for everyone, but the point I'm trying to make is, and this actually did happen to me a few years ago, someone criticized my weight on social media. I've never shared that before. Like it. Someone quite prominent started to use a video of me and said, look at his nose, look at his- Shut up, really? Yeah, I'm not kidding you.

Oh man.

Now, but here's the thing, Louis.

And kind of posted it online and said, look at him, he's getting bigger.

Yeah, he was trying to- the thing is, he wasn't having a go at me. He was trying to illustrate a point and he said, there's this prominent dog, West and East. Like the more individualistic cultures, like let's say America or the UK are more- me cultures and I cultures, whereas Asian cultures are a bit more sort of we orientated, right? So how I am is a reflection of the entire family.

Which has pros and cons. Yeah, yeah.

That's from the UK. Look at his images three years ago.

Oh man.

Yeah, oh man. Or you can go, wait a minute.

Thank you for the feedback.

I didn't get involved. I only knew about it because some of my followers said, Hey, have you seen this?

Yeah, yeah. But more internally, thank you for the feedback. And maybe I do need to look at some of this.

An older version of me Yeah. Which would have been a victim to the world might have got really triggered. And initially I was like, oh, this is weird. And then I calmed down and I was like, does he have a point? Yeah, I could see what he's saying. Actually, I can see what he's saying. Right. And I noticed some people, they will get caught up in an argument that there's pros and cons of both. Nothing's like all good or all bad. There's benefits and there's downsides. And the truth is I had put a bit of weight on. Right? So my mum's saying that to me because I knew her and because she very rarely said that to me. I was like, oh, I need to take some action here. Yeah. Right? Now, here's the thing. That person has no right to say anything about another person's appearance. And I'm not disputing that is, you know, it may well be a more polite thing to not do that, but I believe that you can get to a state where you don't take things personally. And so for me, I was looking at it going, also know that in some families that can be an abusive thing, or a husband could say that to their wife in an abusive way. So I'm not saying, does he have a point? I can kind of see what he's saying a little bit, you know? And the truth is, I was really stressed at the time. You know, my, my dad, no, my mum was really sick. And so when you're stressed, you're not sleeping well, you're not eating as well. And whatever the reason is, right? I think that holds true for everyone. But the point I'm trying to make is, and this actually did happen to me a few years ago, someone criticized my weight on social media. I've never shared that before. Like it, someone quite prominent started to use a video of me and said, look at his nose, look at his. But I was like, hey, yeah, maybe I can just pay a bit more attention. What I'm saying is that a more victim approach to life is, look, I appreciate this is a punchy example that not everyone's going to agree with me on. But it's very easy to get caught up in the narrative. That person has no right to talk about me in that way. And then get your friends around. Yeah, that guy's an idiot. He shouldn't be talking about you. And of course, I don't think it's the best thing to be talking about other people's appearance or weight online. I certainly wouldn't do it. I don't think it's how I want to interact with the world. But for me, I was like, don't start telling me these disempowering stories. It doesn't matter. It's one person's opinion. Is there any truth there? Can I learn from something?

Yeah.

Can I not? I honestly believe, Lewis, that the reason most people can't make change that lasts, going back to the title of the book, is because we haven't addressed some of these internal drivers. Well, I've written my third book was on how to shut up. Really? Yeah, I'm not kidding you. oh, man. Now, but here's the thing, Louis.

And kind of posted it online.

Formation. And I went through the rules of habit formation, and I still stand by that. There are certain things that you can do that make it more likely those habits will stick. But I still believe that that's superficial because when you get to a point where you've created and cultivated. I didn't say, look at Harry, he's getting bigger. Yeah, he was trying to show. The thing is, he wasn't having a go at me. He was trying to illustrate and he said, there's this prominent doctor in the UK, look at his images three years ago.

Oh man.

Yeah, oh man. Or you can go with an inner calm. You naturally make better choices.

Yes.

Does that make sense?

100%. 100%. And that's a lot of things you talk about in the book, make change that lasts, nine simple ways to break free from the habits that hold you back. And there's a lot more in here that I want people to dive into. So we'll leave people with that. Thank you for the feedback. I didn't get involved.

I only knew about it because some of my followers said, Hey, have you seen this?

Yeah, so more internally, thank you for the feedback. And maybe I do need to look.

At some of this. An older version of me, which would.

Have right now if we can go get the book. A lot of big praise from some amazing people. So make sure you guys pick up a copy.

Beautiful images. Being a victim to the world might have got really triggered. And initially I was like, oh, this is weird.

And then I come in here as well, which works for my brain to be able to see the images and relate it to the habits. So I really love that. This has been powerful, Rangan. I appreciate you for being here and I want to acknowledge you for having the courage to follow your path and your truth. And I wouldn't say lean down.

And I was like, does he have a point? Yeah, I could see what he's saying actually. I can see what he's saying, right? And I noticed some people, they will get caught up in an argument that-.

Leave behind, but upgrade where you're at from being in the medical world for 23 years. And you just said you recently stopped practicing in that discipline. What's the main reason behind that?

The main reason why I, that person has no right to say anything about another person's appearance. And I'm not disputing stop practicing. and I don't know how long it will be for, is because the thing about is, you know, it may well be a more polite thing to not do that. I want to live the life that I try and promote, right? I like to walk the walk. And so there's a chapter in Make Change at Last, I think it's chapter seven, which is about busyness and this idea that, but I believe that you can get to a state where you don't take things personally. And so for me, I was looking at it going, busyness is not success. And I make the case, does he have a point? I can kind of see what he's saying a little bit, you know? And the truth is, I was really stressed at the time. You know, my dad, no, my mum said, the reason why so many of us are overly busy in society was really sick. And so when you're stressed, you're not seeing It's because we want to feel valued. We want to feel important where we used to get that value from our tribes, but many of us now are living these quite different- Sleeping well, you're not eating as well, and whatever the reason is, right? Connected lives. And so we want to, but I was like, hey, yeah, maybe I can just pay a bit more attention. What I'm saying is that a more Look, I feel it's a human need to feel that we're of value. So often we'll do that through our work at the expense of other things in our life. So why have I, maybe temporarily, maybe for good, I don't know yet, why have I stopped practicing? Well, a couple of reasons. One is I feel that over 23 years, I appreciate this is a punchy example that not everyone's going to agree with me on. seen tens of thousands of patients have having shared what I've learned on TV shows in my now. But it's very easy to get caught up in the narrative. That person has no six book on my podcast. I have created a course with the Royal College of GPs called prescribing lifestyle medicine. We've trained over 4,000 healthcare professionals around the world now and the principal who writes to talk about me in that way. And then get your friends that I talk about. in my books. And so we're having a huge impact on this round. Yeah, that guy's an idiot. He shouldn't be talking about you. And of course, I don't think the way medical physicians are now practicing, we've had cardiologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, nurses, physios from all over the world train on this course that I co-created and are using those tools to help people. And I realize I can't do everything. I can't see patients, write books. It's the best thing to be talking about other people's appearance or weight on line. I certainly wouldn't do it. I don't think it's how I want to interact with the world. But for me, I was like, don't start telling you these disempowering stories. Record an episode of my weekly podcast. Attend to my relationship with my wife. Have a great relationship with my children. I also look after my elderly mum. Right, my mum's taught me well for a few years. I live five minutes away. I'm heavy. It doesn't matter. It's one person's opinion. Is there any truth there? Can I learn from something? Yeah. Can I not? I honestly believe, Lewis, that the reason most people can't make change that lasts, going back to the title of the book is, really involved with her care. And I don't want to be overly busy. And I've been thinking about it for two weeks because we haven't addressed some of these internal three years, but you know why I didn't do it earlier, Louis? Because it was a fear of what people might think. Are you a real doctor? Right. Why this? Well, I've written my third book was on habit, and then I thought, that's that whole external validation piece. Like, I don't have to do things that other people want me to do. I have to validate myself. That's correct. I'm totally a real doctor. I've got bit formation and I went through the rules of habit formation and I still stand by that. There are certain things that you can do that make it more likely those habits will stick. But I still believe that that's superficial. Because when you get to a point where you've created and cultivated an inner calm, you naturally make better choices.

Yes.

Does that make sense?

100%. 100%. And that's a lot of things you talk about in the book.

Decades of experience. I'm now a professor at Chester Medical School of Health Communication and Education. I'm helping medical students there learn these principles. I feel I've moved into this phase of my career now where I want to share and teach people what I.

Have made change that lasts nine simple ways to break free from the habits that hold you back. And there's a lot more.

I learned to help them practice. So many doctors, so many junior doctors say, Can you teach me? Can you teach me? We don't learn this stuff, but you seem to have this unique insight here.

That I want people to dive into. So we'll leave people with that right now so they can go get the book. A lot of big praise from some amazing people. So make sure you guys pick up a copy. Beautiful images in here as well, which works for my brain to be- Into human health.

And I wouldn't say I've got a unique insight, but I do see the human body a certain way. I kind of feel I've had some pretty awesome results with patients over the years with some quite what would be called untreatable conditions because I see the.

Images and related to the habits. So I really love that. This has been powerful.

I really try and get to the root cause. And so I want to teach now.

Well, Rangan, I appreciate you for being here and I want to acknowledge you for having the courage to follow your path and your truth and I wouldn't say leave behind, but upgrade where you're at from being in the medical world for 23 years. And you just said you recently stopped practicing.

I want to share the knowledge that I've learned with people and I don't want to be burnt out. Yeah.

And so, in that discipline, what's the main reason behind that?

The main reason why I have stopped practicing and I don't know how long it will be for, is because I want to live the life that I try and promote. I decided, okay, what would my life feel like if I don't practice for a little while? And I miss it because my favorite thing was seeing patients. But like you, Louis, you know, I speak to a large volume, right? I like to walk the walk. And so there's a new people each week on my podcast.

Right?

And I do my podcast my way, right? I spend a day, a day and a half preparing for each guest, 'cause I like doing that. I do a deep dive and then I go along with these guests. The chapter may change at last, I think it's chapter seven, which is about busyness and this idea that busyness is not success. And I make the case that the reason why so many of us are overly busy in society. And I am inundated with DMs on a daily basis. People saying, oh, that episode or your third book helped me cure my depression. You've helped me with my anxiety. You've helped my mother put her type 2 diabetes into remission. I've now got rid of my fibromyalgia pains, which I've had to take, whatever it might be. I get this every single day. and I have such gratitude that I do a job that helps people. And I've realized that if 80 to 90% of what we see is driven by our collective modern lifestyles, I can have more impact teaching people about how to change their lifestyles through these mediums. And here's the funny thing, Louis, in the UK, There's probably a few thousand doctors at least that I... We want to feel important where we used to get that value from our tribes, but many of us now are living these quite distant know about who prescribe my podcast to their patient or I'll store, right? So they have a 10 minute consultation with a patient and they might suggest a few things and say, Hey, listen, if you're interested in this, why don't you listen to episode 420 Connected Lives? And so we want to feel it's a human need to feel that we're of value. So often we'll do that through our work at the expense of other things in our life. I've got Strategy Sessions podcast. And then in four weeks, when you come back, we'll discuss it and how it applies for you. So I feel I'm doing a public service. I feel I'm... So why have I, maybe temporarily, maybe for good, I don't know yet, why have I stopped practicing? A couple of reasons. One is I feel that over 23 years, I've seen tens of thousands of patients have having shared what I've learned on TV shows and my now being a doctor through my books, through my podcast, through my newsletter, whatever else book on my podcast. I have created a course with the Royal College of GPs. Whatever it might be, I'm helping people improve their lives. with their health problems. But after 23 years, I realized I don't necessarily need or prescribing lifestyle medicine. We've trained over 4,000 healthcare professionals around the world now in the principle to do that one-on-one with my patients. 100%.

Yeah, 100%.

That I talk about in my books. And so we're having a huge impact on the way medical physicians are now practicing. We've had cardiologists, I remember I had.

Ali Abdal on a number of years ago and he was holding on to like, I'm still doing, I don't know, 10 hours a month of, you know, medical practice because I'm afraid if I let it go fully, people won't take me seriously as a YouTuber and as.

An psychiatrist, pharmacist, nurses, physios from all over the world train on this course that I co-created and are using those tools to help people. And he realizes, I can't do everything.

Author and things like that. And I really just kind of challenged him on that and I go, what would it look like?

And he eventually, I can't see patients, write books, record an episode of my weekly podcast, attend to my own, decided.

To leave the practice and not be practicing medicine, I guess, or not have any patients. And he realized it was just a.

Fear, like he was in a relationship with my wife, have a great relationship with my children. I wanted to grow even more.

He was able to do more of the things that he wanted to and.

Not have to look after my elderly mom. My mom's taught me well for a few years. I live five minutes away. I'm heavily involved with her care. And I don't want to be overly busy. And I've been thinking about it for two or three years, but you know why I didn't do it earlier, Louis? Because it was a fear of what.

Hold on to something that he once wanted to, but no longer wanted to anymore.

But I still, and that's powerful, and I know Ali's story. I'm still a doctor. I'm still a GMC registered doctor. I'm a professor at Chester Medical School. People might think, are you a real doctor?

Right.

I've just decided at this stage in my life, and there's other factors that influence this, you know, I, I, And then I thought, that's that whole external validation piece. Like, I don't have to do things that other people want me to do. I have to validate it myself. That's correct. I'm totally a real doctor. I've got decades of experience. I'm now a professor at Chester Medical School of Health Communication Education. And I share a lot of this in the book about, it's a very personal book. I've opened up and shared things that A few years ago, I would have been too nervous to share it publicly, right? About how I make certain decisions, certain mistakes I may have made in my life. But I'm helping medical students there learn these principles. I feel I moved into this phase of my career now where I've been very influenced by thinking about the regrets of the dying. You know the book by Bronnie Ware, the Five Regrets of the Dying. Yeah, I've read that. Yeah, me too, right? Yeah, she's great. And for people who don't know, Bronnie was a I want to share and teach people what I have palliative care nurse for a few years and she knows learned to help them practice so many doctors, so many junior doctors say, can you teach me? Can you teach me? We don't learn this stuff, but you seem to have this unique insight. So I said, these guys at the end of their life, they all said the same things. And they said things like, I wish I'd work less. I wish I spent more time with my friends and family. I wish I'd lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me. I wish I'd allow myself to be happy, right, into human health. And I wouldn't say I've got a unique insight. These things are really powerful because I hear that and I go, but I do see the human body a certain way. And I kind of feel I've had some pretty awesome results with patients over the years with some quite what would be called untreatable conditions because I really try and get to the root cause. And so I want to teach now. I don't want to wait till my deathbed to learn those truths. I want to learn those truths now and apply them in my life so that I don't have those deathbed regrets. And do you mind if I share a little quick exercise that I think will really help people with this? Would that be okay? Sure. It's called Write yout Own Happy Ending. And it's an exercise that I write about because I always try and make these things really practical for people. And it's in two parts. The first, I want to share the knowledge that I've learned with people and I don't want to be burnt out. And so I decided, okay, what would my life feel like if I don't practice for a little while? And I miss it because my favorite thing part is, and you can try it now, Louise, if you want. We can maybe try it on you if you game. Fast forward now to the end of your life. Imagine you're on your deathbed. This is the last day. And then was seeing patients. But like you, Louis, I speak to a large volume. Now on your deathbed, you're looking back on your life. What are three things you will want to have done with your life?

For me personally, raise a beautiful family. stay healthy and strong all the way to the end and pursue every dream in my heart that I feel I was meant to pursue.

Yeah, I love that. Beautiful answers, right? Okay, so that's the first of people each week on my podcast, right? And I do my podcast my way, right? I spend a day, a day and a half preparing for each guest because I like doing that. I do a deep dived, and then I go along with these guests. And I am inundated with DMs on a daily basis. And if people are struggling, you don't have to get this perfect. You can keep reiterating on this, but okay, so you write down on your deathbed, this is what I ideally want to have looked back and reflected on. Okay, now you zoom back into the present and go, okay, what are three weekly happiness habits that I can implement in my life that guarantee I'm going to get the happy ending that I just wrote down I wanted. And so for me, for example, when I last did this exercise on my deathbed, I'm looking back, I'm thinking, okay, I will want to have spent quality time with my friends and family. I will want to have spent people saying, oh, that episode or your third book helped me cure my depression. You've helped me with my anxiety. You've helped my mother put her type 2 diabetes into remission. I've now got rid of my fibromyalgia pains, which I've had to take, whatever it might be. I get this every single day. I will want to have had time to pursue my passions, like what's in my heart. And the third thing is, I will want to have done things that contribute to the well-being of other people. And I have such gratitude that I do a job. that helps people. And I've realised that if 80 to 90% that's my deathbed answer. That's the happy ending I want. So now I come back to the present and I go, well, what are three weekly happiness habits? And I literally have them written down on my fridge, Louis. Okay? And I'll tell you what, 90% of what we see is driven by our collective modern lifestyles. I can have more impact. I have written down. I want five meals a week, with my wife and kids where I'm fully present and not distracted by work.

That's great.

Right? It doesn't mean that's the right answer for anyone else, but for me in the context of my life, that helps me teaching people about how to change their lifestyles through these mediums know that I'm prioritizing my family.

Right?

So I write that down. The second thing, and here's the funny thing, Louis, in the UK, There's probably a few thousand doctors at least that I have on my happiness habit list is if I've had time to go for a long run or I've had time to play my guitar and write a song or sing, I know I've had time to pursue my passions. And then the third thing is if I release a weekly episode of my podcast, which I'll be doing for seven years, then I know at the end of my life, I'll be able to know about who prescribe my podcast to their patient or I was sure. Right? So they have a 10 minute consultation with a patient and they might suggest a few things. Say, Hey, listen, if you're interested in this, why don't you listen to episode 420, Contributing to the Wellbeing of Others? It's a very, very simple exercise, Louis, but if you've never done it, it's extremely powerful because it brings into sharp focus what is truly important in life. Yes. And we're all living these busy lives where we've got lots of things competing. of Dr. Schatz's podcast. And then in four weeks when you come back, we'll discuss it for our attention. Too many people wait for it and how it applies for you. So I feel I'm doing a public service. I feel I'm all their to-do list to be done before they focus on the important things in life. And I'm saying that will never happen. If you're waiting for your to-do list to be done before you do the important things in life, you're going to be one of those people. on your deathbed with those regrets. So that being a doctor through my books, through my podcast, through my newsletter, whatever it might be, I'm helping people improve their lives with their health. Exercise helps me go, actually, my family are the most important thing to me. How can I make sure I had time for problems? But after 23 years, I realized I don't necessarily need my family each week. How can I make sure I had time for my passion? and listen, it doesn't mean that every week's perfect, Louis. One week, I might only do three meals, but I don't go down the guilt and shame route anymore. I go, oh, that's interesting. That's three. If that continues to do that one-on-one with my patients, does that sound- yeah, 100%.

Yeah, 100%.

You're gonna start fracturing those relationships. So next week, I might beef it up to six or seven. And it's just a very simple way but help us you refocus on what's important in life.

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. We all need those exercises to start practicing for sure. And I think life goes by very quickly. You know, I'm 41. I always forget my. I remember I had Ali Abdullah on a number of years ago, and he was holding on to, like, I'm still doing, I don't know, 10 hours a month of, you know, medical practice. I'm 41, but it's like when I think back, In the last five years, it was like a snap. Years, because I'm afraid if I let it go fully, people won't take me seriously as a YouTuber and as an author. We were here essentially five years ago in LA, author and things like that. And I really just kind of challenged him on that and I go, what would it look like? And he eventually, I, that is not, March 2020, right? Almost five years ago.

Yeah.

It's like it snapped. Yeah. It's gone. and, you know, in five years, hopefully we see each other before then, but in five years, it's gonna go like this on his own. Decided to leave the practice and not be practicing medicine, I guess, or not have any patience. And he realized it was just a fear. Like, he was able to grow even more. He was able to do more of the things that he wanted to in that. And we want to be able to look back and say, was I doing those main core things on , consistent basis that give me closer to an end of life peace, gratitude for how I showed up, that I lived that life that I wanted. And I think it's a great time that you're sharing this, where this will be out at the hold on to something that he once wanted to, but no longer wanted to. At the new year season for people to have that reflection, am I taking those weekly actions that are getting me closer to the life I want to live now and something that I will be happy that I did in the more.

But I still, and that's powerful. And I know Ali's story. I'm still a doctor. I'm still a GMC registered doctor. I'm a professor at Chester Medical School.

Future as well.

Yeah. And that exercise, right? That exercise, if people do that at New Year, I promise you that the way you interact with your life will start to change. Your behaviors I've just decided at this stage in my life, and there's other factors that influence this. You know, I, you know, and I share a lot of this in the book about it will naturally start to get better. If you think that this new year somehow miraculously your life is going to be different from every other new year. It's a very personal book. I've opened up and shared things that a few years ago, you wouldn't want it more this year. No, it isn't. Right? The reason in my view that most New Year's resolutions fail, Lou, I would have been too nervous to share publicly, right? About how I make certain decisions is because they come from an energy of lack rather than an energy of fullness. It's the energy behind the behavior that's most important over you. Certain mistakes I may have made in my life, but I feel bad in your life and you're full of guilt and shame and you try and overcome that with your will power on your motivation. I'm telling you, because I've had it before and I've seen it. In fact, I've been very influenced by thinking about the regrets of the dying. You know, the book houses of patience. Those changes will not be long lasting.

Yeah.

That guilt and shame will drag you back. But once you do these exercises and the by Bronnie Ware, the five regrets of the dying, yeah, yeah, me too. Right. Yeah. She's great. She's great. And. For people who don't know, Bronnie was a palliative care nurse for a few years. And she knew the exercises that would make change at last, and they're all simple, free exercises, right? You don't have to buy stuff. Watch out the book. You don't have to buy stuff. I really feel strongly about that because I've noticed that these guys at the end of their life, they all said the same things. And work Louis in practices where there've been some really deprived communities I've worked with. Like, I was once in a practice in Oldham in the North of Manchester for seven years. These guys had heart. They said things like, I wish I'd work less. I wish I spent more time with lives. A lot of immigrants, a lot of single parents, my friends and family. I wish I'd lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me. I wish I'd allow myself to be happy. Right? A lot of struggle. And I believe that each and every single one of us has the right to good quality health information. And honestly, like these things are really powerful because I hear that and I go, people say that wellness is for the wealthy and the affluent and the middle class. I don't buy it. Like it really, I don't want to wait till my deathbeds to learn those truths. I want to learn those truths now and apply them in my life. so that I don't have those deathbed regrets. And do you mind if I share a little quick exercise that I think will really help people with this? Would that be okay? Sure. It isn't. And I've always made it a priority throughout my career to try and make sure that the advice I'm giving works for everyone, including the people who are struggling the most in society. Like it really does make a difference. And I'm really proud that everything in this book is free.

That's great, man. I love it. I want people to get the book, Make Change that Last. Make sure you get a copy, get a copy for...

It's called Write yout Own Happy Ending. And it's an exercise that I write.

About because I have a friend, powerful stuff here.

I always try and make these things really practical for people. And it's in two parts. The first part is, and you can try it now, this if you want. We can maybe try it on you with your game. Fast forward now to the end of your life. Imagine you're on your deathbed. Right? This is the last day. And then- and also you have an.

Amazing podcast that people can subscribe to. We'll have that all linked up. But the main site is drchatterjee.com, is that correct? That's the main website.

And then the main social channel for me is Instagram @drchatterjee.

Dr. Chatterjee on Instagram.

Now on your deathbed, you're looking back on your life.

YouTube, the podcast, the book, everything is linked up at drchatterji.com. yeah. I can get everything.

Exactly.

Okay, awesome. Final question for you. This has been powerful, Rangan, and I appreciate you being here. What's your definition of greatness?

What are three things you will want to have done with your life? Greatness is when you're able to live your life with an open heart.

For me personally, Raise a beautiful family. Stay healthy and strong rather than a closed heart.

Greatness is someone who aspires to live that life with an all the way.

To the end.

And open heart rather than a closed heart. I really believe that everything in life either comes from love or it comes from fear. Everything.

All of pursue every dream in my heart that I feel I was meant to pursue.

Our behaviors, all our interactions. And once you tune into that and realize that actually, oh, you're- yeah, I love that. Beautiful answers, right? Okay, so that's the first feeling, angry, envious, jealousy, whatever it might be. The root cause of that is fear. Whereas if the root cause becomes joy, sorry, the root cause becomes love. that there is empathy, there is kindness, there is compassion. These are things that we can all cultivate. So, what I am trying to do in my life to be a great human. And if people are struggling, you do not have to get this perfect. You can keep reiterating on this. But okay, so you write down on your deathbed, this is what I ideally want in being to be a great dad and a great husband and hopefully a great human. It really is what I have looked back and reflected on. Okay. Now you zoom back into the present and go, okay, what are three weekly happiness habits that I can implement in my life? Very simple. I'm trying to come at life with an open heart rather than a close one.

Thanks for being here, man. Appreciate it.

That's how I live, appreciate it, man.

Thank you so much for being here. I hope you got some value from this episode as much as I did. if you did, please do me a favor and click the like button right now.

If you like, that guarantee I'm gonna get the happy ending that I just wrote down. I want it. And so for me, for example, like.

This, it's going to help share it out into the YouTube world even more for us. Please click that like button and leave a comment below.

Paul, when I last did this exercise on my deathbed, I'm looking back, I'm thinking, okay, I will once on your.

Biggest takeaway, or if you have any questions that you want me to follow up with. Also subscribe to our channel because when you do, you help us book even bigger guests and I want you to have the best information out there in.

The world because I have spent quality time with my friends and family. I will want to have spent, that's.

What the School of Greatness is all about. So make sure to subscribe right now, like this video, share a comment below on your biggest to take away.

And also, I will want to have had time to pursue my passions, like what's in my heart. And the third thing is I will want to have done things that contribute to the wellbeing of other people.

I've got some big news, a new book. If you're looking to create financial freedom in your life, and you want more abundance, and you want a richer life, then make sure to check out my new book, Make Money Easy. I think you're gonna love this.

And it's all about creating- that's my deathbed answer. That's the happy ending I want. so now I come back to the present financial freedom.

The link is below in the description. Or you can go to makemoneyeasybook.com and check it out. People will feel your energy.

People will find your profile at the right time and feel called to to match.

And I go, well, what are three weekly happiness habits?

And I literally have them written down on my fridge, Louis. Okay. And I'll tell you what I've matched with you.

All of that comes from your vibration. I talk about products on a shelf right now.

I have written down. I want five meals a week with my wife and kids where I'm fully present and not distracted by work.

That's great.

Right? It doesn't mean that's the right answer for anyone else, but for me, in the context of my life, that helps me.

So one of the things that we talk about in our company is that the energy of the founders... Know that.

I'm prioritizing my family, right? so I write that down. The second thing I have on my happiness habit list is if I've had time to go for a long run or I've had time to play my guitar and write a song or sing, I know I've had time to pursue my passions. And then the third thing is if I release a weekly episode of my podcast, which I'll be doing for seven years, then I know at the end of my life, I'll have contributed to the well-being of others. It's a very, very simple exercise, Louis. But if you've never done it, it's extremely powerful because it brings into sharp focus what is truly important in life.

Yes.

And we're all living these busy lives where we've got lots of things competing for our attention. Too many people wait for all their to-do lists to be done before they focus on the important things in life. And I'm saying that will never happen. If you're waiting for your to-do list to be done before you do the important things in life, you're gonna be one of those people on your deathbed with those regrets. So that exercise helps me go, actually my family are the most important thing to me. How can I make sure I had time for my family each week? How can I make sure I had time for my passion? And listen, it doesn't mean that every week's perfect, Louis. One week, I might only do three meals, but I don't go down the guilt and shame route anymore. I go, ah, that's interesting. That's three. If that continues, you're going to start fracturing those relationships. So next week I might beef it up to six or seven. And it's just a very simple way that helps you refocus on what's important in life.

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. We all need those exercises to start practicing for sure. And I think life goes by very quickly. You know, I'm 41. I always figure my, I'm 41, but it's like when I think back in the last five years, it was like a snap. you were here essentially five years ago in LA.

That is not. Yeah, yeah.

March 2020, right? Almost five years ago.

Yeah.

It's like it snapped. Yeah. It's gone. And, you know, in five years, hopefully we see each other before then, but in five years, it's gonna go like this. And we want to be able to look back and say, was I doing those main core things on a consistent basis that give me closer to an end of life? peace, gratitude for how I showed up, that I lived that life that I wanted. And I think it's a great time that you're sharing this, where this will be out at the New Year season for people to have that reflection. Am I taking those weekly actions that are getting me closer to the life I want to live now? And something that I will be happy that I did in the future as well.

Yeah, and that exercise Right? That exercise, if people do that at New Year, I promise you that the way you interact with your life will start to change. Your behaviors will naturally start to get better. If you think that this New Year, somehow miraculously, your life is going to be different from every other New Year because you want it more this year. No, it isn't. Right? The reason in my view that most New Year's resolutions fail, Louis, is because they come from an energy of lack rather than an energy of fullness. It's the energy behind the behaviour that's most important. If you feel bad in your life and you're full of guilt and shame and you try and overcome that with your willpower and your motivation, I'm telling you, because I've had it before and I've seen it in thousands of patients, those changes will not be long lasting. That guilt and shame will drag you back. But once you do these exercises, and the exercises that were in mate change at last. And they're all simple, free exercises, right? You don't have to buy stuff. Watch out the book. You don't have to buy stuff. I really feel strongly about that because I've worked Louis in practices where there have been some really deprived communities I've worked with. Like I was once in a practice in Oldham in the North of Manchester for seven years. These guys had hard lives, a lot of immigrants, a lot of single parents. a lot of struggle. And I believe that each and every single one of us has the right to good quality health information. And honestly, like, people say that wellness is for the wealthy and the affluent and the middle class. I don't buy it. Like, it really isn't. And I've always made it a priority throughout my career to try and make sure that the advice I'm giving works for everyone, including the people who are struggling the most in society. Like it really does make a difference. And I'm really proud that everything in this book is free.

That's great, man. I love it. I want people to get the book. Make Change that Last. Make sure you get a copy. Get a copy for a friend. Powerful stuff here. And also you have an amazing podcast that people can subscribe to. We'll have that all linked up. But the main site is drchatterji.com, is that correct?

That's my website. And then the main social channel for me is Instagram at Dr. Chatterjee.

Dr. Chatterjee on Instagram, YouTube, the podcast, the book. Everything is linked up at drchatterjee.com. Yeah, I can get everything. Exactly. Okay, awesome. Final question for you.

This has been powerful, Rangan, and I appreciate you being here. What's your definition of greatness? Greatness is when you're able to live your life with an open heart rather than a closed heart. Greatness is someone who aspires to live their life with an open heart rather than a closed heart. I really believe that everything in life either comes from love or it comes from fear. Everything, all of our behaviors, all our interactions. And once you tune into that and realize that actually, oh, you're feeling angry, envious, jealousy, whatever it might be, the root cause of that is fear. Whereas if the root cause becomes joy, sorry, if the root cause becomes love, then there's empathy, there's kindness, there's compassion. These are things that we can all cultivate. So what I'm trying to do in my life, to be a great human being, to be a great dad and a great husband and hopefully a great human, it really is very simple. I'm trying to come at life with an open heart rather than a close one.

Mm, no again. Thanks for being here, man. Appreciate it.

That's how me, Louis, appreciate it, man.

Thank you so much for being here. I hope you got some value from this episode as much as I did. If you did, please do me a favor and click the like button right now. If you like this, it's gonna help share it out into the YouTube world even more for us. Please click that like button and leave a comment below on your biggest takeaway or if you have any questions that you want me to follow up with. Also subscribe to our channel because when you do, you help us book even bigger guests and I want you to have the best information out there in the world because that's what the School of Greatness is all about. So make sure to subscribe right now, like this video, share a comment below on your biggest takeaway and also I've got some big news, a new book. If you're looking to create financial freedom in your life and you want more abundance, and you want a richer life, then make sure to check out my new book, Make Money Easy. I think you're gonna love this and it's all about creating financial freedom. The link is below in the description or you can go to makemoneyeasybook.com and check it out.

People will feel your energy. People will find your profile at the.

Right time and feel called to match with you. All of that comes from your vibration. I talk about products on a shelf, right? So one of the things that we talk about in our company is that the energy of the founders.