Greatest Skier Exposes Mental Barriers To Success | Mikaela Shiffrin

I don't think confidence has to be part of it. Belief is important. Believing more, because it just helps you have the courage to try. And that's the most important thing. Despite the chance that you might fail, work on having the courage to try. And that is a form of confidence.

I think you got to have a dream. The school of greatness.

Really?

Yeah.

Please welcome Louis Howells.

What is the Olympics like? Was that the dream for you growing up?

No, I'm. Well, there was a part of my dream I did. Like, I had a little notebook when I was younger that was like, I want to. I'm going to be Olympic champion. I think it was. But something was like, I'm going to be the youngest Olympic gold medalist in history. And that actually did happen.

But 15, 15, 16.

How old were you? I was. I was 18.

18.

18. I was the youngest slalom gold medalist.

Sure.

So there's an asterisk on that. But that was one thing I wrote, like in a journal. But really mostly my goals had nothing to do with the Olympics. My goal was always, I want to be the best GE world. I always looked up to Bode Miller as my big idol. And he was like, at the time, you know, he won the overall globe, he was winning individual races. He was like. And he was inspiring people. And one of my favorite movies of all time was his documentary Flying Downhill, which is like, I don't even know. I don't know if you can buy it somewhere now. Like, I don't. I would literally want to go back and watch it again, but I'm not really sure where to find it because I had it on the DVD and I don't like, have a way to play it anymore. But that was like my most inspiring. He really inspired me to truly be. Want to be a ski racer, really. He's like the reason I identified myself at 8 years old as a ski racer. And I just.

Did you watch him on TV or on the Olympics or what? Did you see him?

I watched him on tv. I watched him on. We had. We would get these DVDs every year. It's called like World Cup Winning Runs. And it's, you know, it's produced by US Ski and Snowboard. And it's like the. The crazy ski fanatics, like, whatever, like your how to videos and things like that. But it was just a compilation of all the season's best winning runs. And my parents used to get those DVDs and I would watch them and it was like all Bodhi's runs and just amazing. And Then, you know, during the Olympics as well. And. But it wasn't. I think maybe what helped me sort of steer away from having the big, big Olympic dream was actually seeing some of what he experienced through the Olympics. And he had the. He had great, great successes. He got the medals and everything. And. And he also had, like, the terrible Olympics that, like, I wish I could. I wish I could have gotten into his mind and known what's going on, on for him at the time. If it was about pressure, if it was about this or that, or if he just didn't really care because he was the kind of athlete who's like, I don't care about the one medal I like. I want to experience whatever it is that feels fulfilling in that moment. And it might not be winning the Olympic medal. It might be, like, just experiencing the Olympic, like, scene in a different way. And people always have an opinion and judge it and get right into it. And I saw that as a child. As a child, and it was like, I don't want to ever have to deal with something like that. Like, do your thing. Why do people have to have an opinion about it? Right? And the opinion itself is, like. Adds pressure, and that makes it harder. I feel like that sort of watching him go through the. The successes he had and the challenges that he faced gave me some insight into, like, my own philosophy and what I find important in skiing, which is. It's literally just about, like. It's so. It's kind of so boring, but it's just about the turn and making really good turns interesting. So it's like, you talk about the process and stuff. And I know that gets. I feel like in sports, people really, really want to hear about, like, your goals, that you want to be the greatest of all time. Like, the Michael Jordan story. Like, the. I know you're going to be NBA champion. Like, you're going to do this. You're going to be the greatest. And all of the hype and the pressure is built up, and then he does it, and it's, like, greater than. And I've always been like, I don't think I'm going to do any of this. I really just want to be a very good skier and ski well and ski fast, and maybe someday I can kind of be the best in the world, and if I can do that, maybe I'll hold onto it. And now it's been, like, 12 years of racing, World cup, where I've been more or less at the top level, and it's still like, I'm still in disbelief. But I still. I always still go back to the days watching, like, my greatest idols, like Bodhi Miller and Yanitza Kosli and Anya Person and all of these. These athletes that I looked up to. And. I don't know, it's just like, you see the struggle that they have, and you see it from an outsider's perspective. And then now, having gone through a lot of that and seeing it from the insider's perspective, we all feel it and experience it differently.

But feel what? The pressure.

The pressure or the failure or the success, whatever it is. Like, everybody's inspired by something different. So some athletes. There's some athletes out there who literally can win races just because they want to be. They just want to win it. Like, just thinking I want to win this race gives them the right mindset and the right intensity that they just. They do. They win it. And when I think I want to win, I never win.

Really?

Never, ever. If I'm thinking about.

You rarely lose.

Yeah. If I'm thinking about winning, I will not win the race. Happen. It's almost like 100% of the time.

So what do you need to think about?

To think about, like, the intensity of my skiing or like, I have to think about racing the course versus winning. It always has to be, like, what's happening between the start and the finish line, not what's going to happen after the finish. Wow. And that's. I don't know. It's kind of. It's a little bit. I feel like it's a little bit corny, but it's so. It's like, fail.

You got to focus on the next turn.

Yeah, the next turn. Like, the process of getting to the finish. That. What is what allows you to win the race? And I. That's. That's where my mindset has to be.

What do you struggle with managing more, overcoming failure, or having all the success?

Oh, I mean, I feel like it's been. I've gone through phases. I mean, I'm only 28, but I have gone. Like, I could sum my career up so far in different phases. In the beginning, it was. It was almost like there wasn't pressure. I didn't really have. I had success pretty early, but it was always like, this is so surreal. I wonder if it's even real. It might be a dream because you're.

The young one on the circle.

Yeah, young. And people keep expecting it to not happen. I kept exceeding expectations, and my expectations were so high, I didn't care about anybody else's And. And then, you know, that's like the first three to four years of my career. And then I started to, like, then I had my first season where I sort of. I did struggle, and I struggled a little bit more, like, finding the fine tuning of my ski equipment and different things, and my first struggles with my coach at that time. And, like, when things weren't really clicking, I was. I might be the luckiest ski racer of all time that I got that things clicked for me earlier than they do for most other athletes. I feel like that's really important is you have to. You have to click with the equipment you have. You have to click with the coaches you have. People have to be on the same page and the same mindset and the same goals. And for the first three, four years of my career, I had that. I almost, like, I almost didn't have to try. Grant. Like, part of that was because my mom traveled with me as one of my coaches as well, and she, like, she fought battles for me. She helped to make it click, but. And she still does, but that, like, there's so many of these different variables that have to go into place, fall into place, or, I don't know, be forced into place. That goes beyond just making good turns. And then when that came down to my job, which was literally just making good turns, I could do it. And so then I started having success early on, and it was just like, people were like, this is not real. This can't keep happening. And then it did. And then it was like everybody caught up, and the media and public and just everybody watching caught up to. It was. It was this season I had. I actually got injured, but I was out. It was 2015, 2000. The 2014. 2015. Yeah. 2014, 2015 season. And I got injured, like, December 2014. And then I came back February 2015. So I was, like, out for a good chunk of the season, but I had an MCL strain and a tibial plateau fracture and then a bone bruise, which was probably the thing that, like, ends up holding everybody back the longest. There's surprisingly little research on bone bruising, but anyway, that's a totally different topic. So when I came back to skiing and kind of focused more on just slalom. But that season was insane because I. I started out the season October, and the first two races of the season were these two slaloms in Aspen, and I. I won. I. That was. I reset the record for the great. The largest margin of victory in a World Cup.

How many seconds?

It was three over three seconds, which Is like, I mean, we. We win races, lose races by literally 100th of a second. And that's typical time differences. 2, 10, 3, 10 is big. 5, 10 is, like, insurmountable. And then if you're getting over that, like, people dream of winning a race by maybe a second. Wow. And I won this race by three seconds. I was like, I don't really. I don't know what just happened after an injury that was before the injury. So then it was the next race series that we went to where I got injured. And then when I came back in February, I kind of focused on just the solemn races for the rest of the season. I did some giant solemn races, but it was just like, mostly focused on slalom. And I think my average. It was like my average time margin of victory for the whole season was over two seconds. So every, pretty much every single race besides one, I. I won by over two seconds.

That's crazy.

And then the one race was my comeback race. It was five tenths or something. And that, that season, it was like the worst thing that happened to me because it set everyone's expectations that I was now going to win every race by over two seconds for the rest of my career. So I came back the next season or, you know, when finish the season, you have your summer period training, blah, blah, blah. First race of the season was in Finland for 2015, 16. And I won it by 7, 10, 6/10 of a second.

She's slowing down.

Yeah. Yes. Everyone was like, are you worried the competition's getting so much better? Are you getting worse? And it was this whole. It was a weird, weird thing where I'd never. I never experienced a victory where people put such a negative spin on it. And that was that, like, then set me into the next phase of my career, which was a lot of, like, performance anxiety, really. And it all surrounded around, like, what media would say and what people around me would say. And not the closest people, but even then, like, even those closest to me would be like, oh, it'd be so great if you could just, like, stomp on this race, like, if you could win it by a second too. Like, we want to get back there. And. And I get it. I just was like, I don't.

You're doing the best you can do.

I'm doing the best I can. I don't think we're there. Like, I actually think the competition is much stronger. And what, like, that happened. That was a moment in time or a season in time. And I don't think we're gonna be in a place where I win races by two seconds anymore. And. But that expectation that then lasted, it's like a four. It's like a four to five year delay. Like took people four to five years to catch up to the expectations I set in the beginning of my career. And then it took them four to five years to figure out that that might not be the. What's going to happen all the time. It's just. It was just weird. So there's this phase where I was puking at the start of every. Really? Yeah. Oh, terrible.

Every race.

Almost every race.

Just because of anxiety.

Because of anxiety.

Was it more worried about what the people closest to you were gonna say, what the media were gonna say?

It was media. It was like fear of. Fear of losing more. Just fear of what disappointment comes when you don't exceed the expectations. I've been really used to kind of exceeding people's expectations. And then. And then it was like, I'm still winning, but just winning alone isn't good enough anymore. I actually have to win by more. And if I'm gonna exceed people's expectations now, I need to make winning by 2 seconds, 3 seconds a regular thing.

That's a lot of pressure.

I mean, it is and it isn't. It's sort of. It's so much that it's like it's not realistic. And I knew it at the time, but I didn't know how to explain that. And it just like it's taken me a long time to get the point to this point now where I just realized that people will catch up. And I also realized, like, during that period of time, you know, after every race, we go through the mixed zone and there's go through all the media. And I felt like the media was directing questions in a very negative way. If I didn't win by a certain amount or if I had a really, like, strong reaction one race, they were like, why is this one so much more important to you? And. And those are all fair questions. My mind would go there if I was them as well, but I would really answer. I would take their question so literally and answer to that. And now I realize people still do that. They kind of try to get into your mind and they say they ask a question, but it insinuates that you feel a certain way instead of just asking how you feel sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with it, honestly. It's just like if you ask the same question over and over and you want to word it a different way, and sometimes, sometimes a reporter might ask, like, you know, is it really disappointing that you came in second this race? This was, this was this season when it was the 85th. The. Okay, so there were two slalom races in a row in the Czech Republic. And I won the first one. That was my 85th victory. And then the second day, everybody was thinking, this is going to be your 86th. And it. For like, for everyone around me, it was a done deal and I was not there.

And mentally, emotionally, you were mentally emotional.

I was just, I was tired. It was a really, really long stretch of races. I raced seven days, seven races in 10 days. And with travel like literally across Europe.

It'S just as much emotionally draining as it is physically because you have to mentally and emotionally prepare.

Yeah.

For hours before every race.

Racing is probably more mentally and emotionally draining. Physically, you're prepared for really whatever can get.

But you've been training so hard and.

Then they all just get intertwined and then you're like, why don't my muscles work anymore? I just. And sometimes all I need is just one day, one recovery day and then I'm literally back to it. But I just.

Back to back was tough.

Yeah, the back, those back to back races, this was, this was the last race series before world championships this season. And I was like on a low, just drained. But, but I was having a good time. I loved racing. I, I won the first run of the second race and I was so I was, went last on the second run. I was in the lead the whole way down and I lost the lead in the last part of the course and I, I lost the race by seven hundredths of a second or something like that to one of the Met. Leona Dura competitor who was an amazing human, like she deserved. She skied so well. She's, she's been, it's. She was on the podium for like some of my very, very first podiums of my career. And she struggled and then had injuries. She's come back like she deserved it. And I didn't have any questions about that. But for sure, people were thinking this could have been 86. Like this would have been the record matching performance and you could have done it here at the scene of your very first World cup race when you were 15 years old. Like, it would have been fateful, the whole thing. It was all of this, the puzzle piece, it was all fitting together and then it didn't happen. Right. And I, I was like, people were asking this, I was like, I am so excited for Lena. I mean I get it. It's not 86, okay, whoopty, like, whatever. But I'm so happy for her, and I'm so excited about my race yesterday, and I'm actually really happy about how I skied most of it today. And I'm looking forward to work. Like, I started to use this. This kind of positive reframing of the questions about how I really felt. And the. It was, like, wild how the. The mood around me shifted from being, like, walking on eggshells. Is she disappointed? What's going to happen? You know, Is she gonna cry? Is she gonna throw a fit? I'm like, I'm good, right? And everybody was like, oh, okay, we can celebrate the second place, too. That's cool. And I just realized how much more control I have than I ever knew before of, like, the closest people around me and their moods. I can help them. Like, I can help them feel okay if. If I don't win a race, they feel like it's their fault because they didn't do the work they did to prepare me. But sometimes it's not on them. Sometimes it's just, like, the factors don't come together in the right way, and the other athletes skied better. And, like, it took a long time for me to realize that it wasn't. It's not just me disappointing them. It's also. They're afraid of disappointing me. And it goes the co. Like, the coaches want to do their best. They want to see me win because they care. Some people want to see me lose because they're sick of seeing me win. And that's like. There's this whole dynamic, this whole, like, culture in there, and you have to really. You have to kind of figure out how to separate those things, I guess.

Wow. Speaking of coaching, where would you be without great coaching in your career and in your life?

Nowhere. I mean. Yeah. No, my whole life is, like. I've been really lucky with my coaches. Starting off with my parents, my first coaches in my life. They both taught me how to ski. And like I said, my mom, she's been my coach since I was. Since I learned how to ski. But she traveled with me my first year in the World Cup. She still travels with me now. And she is, like, people have a bit of a misunderstanding because they. That it's, like, a frustrating thing for her. And for me, people go up to her and be like, when are you gonna stop following Michaela around? Like, what do you do all day when she's skiing? Like, she's on the hill. She's setting. She's helping set the courses. She sets some of the courses herself. She videos. She's, like, pulling fence, setting fence. She does. She's literally just. She's a ski coach. She's just employed by me, not the US Ski Team. Right. So people, like, have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. And some of her friends even will be like, come on. Like, come hang out with me more. Michaela's fine, and they don't realize how much of an impact she has on my career and, like, my mental stability and just being able to exist in Europe for six or seven months at a time without being home, without being, like. I'm fairly familiar with most of Europe. Europe now. But you're still not home. Right. You know. Right, right. And that's something you're, like, trying to, like, inception. People's minds. They get it. So they stop asking her those questions because she's like, oh, there's nothing, like, everyone around you making you feel like you're completely inconsequential. And someone is, like, in your daughter's career, and who is she to say that she's, like, important, but I'm the one who says it, and it's like, oh, wow. Anyway, so sure. So she's a very important coach.

So what's the biggest lesson your. Your mom has taught you?

Okay, there's a lot. And this might not be the actually most important lesson, but pretty early on, she and my dad kind of set this philosophy that, like, things are worth doing. I don't know how to put this. It's more fun to do things if you can do them well. And there's a way to do them well so that it's fun. And it comes with, like, a methodical approach and studying and learning. And this could be with school. It could be, like, math is more fun when you understand it, and it takes a little work to understand it, but then it's. Then it's like doing a puzzle that's actually fun. Or soccer. Growing up with my brother, he's two years older, two and a half years older than I am, and we both, you know, we both wanted to play soccer and try out for the local travel team in New Hampshire. And it was a really good team. And, like, we needed to practice, and my mom, like, helped us. She. She got the books and some DVDs, and we would study, like, different drills and soccer, like, things we could learn and the Maradona and all these, like, fun tricks and. And just, like, learn how to juggle a Soccer ball, like, the basics of that. Learn how to dribble properly, learn how to, like. Then you practice working on speed, you practice running technique, all of those things. And it was a step by step, like, fundamentals. And we would. We worked on that in the summer, and then we'd go back to our team in the fall. And especially my brother's coach, he was like, okay. Taylor is a Cinderella story of soccer because he had a growth spurt the year before. He grew a foot and a half.

Wow.

And he literally. He, like, lost the ability to run. And my mom brought him back. She taught him how to run again. She got him, like, coordination. She, like, bought him a unicycle to practice balance and all of these different things, like, ways. Because his whole. His whole goal was to get back on the team with his buddies. And he came back and he ended up being the fastest runner on the team. And his ball handling skills were, like, light years improved from what they were. And as coach, it's like, this isn't. This is unbelievable. I've never seen something like this happen. When a kid grows a foot and a half and it takes longer to get your coordination back than that. My mom's like, yeah, well, that's what happens when you, like, work at it.

Sure.

But it was all fun stuff, too. Like, all summer long, Taylor and I would just play soccer together. And with skiing, it's the same. I mean, it's all like, you learn the different skills and the fundamentals. And tennis, too. Tennis, something we love. And it's so much fun to do it when you're playing well, and it actually stinks when you're not playing well. So that's kind of our. That's like a little bit of a family philosophy. And my mom just happens to be, like, the greatest teacher that I know. She just knows how to break down movements and explain it in a way that makes sense that people can learn. Like Taylor and I have a joke that she will see somebody struggling on the ski hill and someone we don't know, just like someone public, just skiing. She'll see them struggling, can't make it down a trail, and she'll go over to them and help them. And it's like five. It's like the five minute crash course in how to become a World cup skier. And by the end of that literal five minutes, getting down to the bottom of the trail, they're arcing turns and, like, enjoying it. I mean, like, this is literally the difference between people doing the sport and not doing the sport. Because it's brutal if you can't make it down the hill. And it is so fun if you know how to like carve some turns and you can get down. And that's like the motto of life.

What does she teach you during those. That season or seasons of high pressure with the media or not winning as fast or losing every once in a while? What did she teach you about managing stress, anxiety, overwhelm and that psychological pressure?

Well, she actually encouraged me to start talking to a sports psychologist and she set me up with somebody that we knew, actually a family friend, but also a psychologist. And she like, for a long time I felt like I don't need a sports psychologist because I am actually very mentally stable and. And you're winning and I'm winning and I'm strong and I just, I never felt pressure. I. Not never, but I didn't. Pressure wasn't something like I didn't really get nervous for the first bunch of years of my career.

And you were just having fun.

I was just having fun even at the Olympics and the Sochi Olympics and standing at the start for the gold medal run. I was not nervous. Part of that, my, I was pretty sick. So it might have been a little bit distraction, but I was just like pretty, not even confident, just like at peace.

Really.

Yeah. And then I got into a phase where I got really nervous. I didn't know how to handle it. And my mom, she. She'd help me focus on things that were in my control. Like she'd help me focus on skiing. The. Skiing the technical aspects and just things that I can control. I could control.

As opposed to media or conversations.

Yeah.

Other athletes or, or just like the.

The random blips and thoughts that you get in your head throughout a race day. You know, race day is. It's wild actually, in, in ski racing especially, it's. It's a nine to ten hour day from the time you get out of bed to the time you get back to your hotel room after the race is over. And during that period of time, you have two minute long intervals that are actually important. And the rest of it in 10 hours. The rest of it is sort of inconsequential, but also very important. But those two minutes you need to be on and good. And it's like sometimes you're like, how do I manage this? And your mind goes everywhere.

How do you prepare for this?

How do you prepare for it? How do you get through it? You literally, your brain is like the thoughts that run through my head on a Race day. It's like, I don't know how to ski this. I don't. I don't know the combination in a slum core, like this flush or I. In a downhill. Oh, my gosh, downhill is crazy. My mind goes totally wild because you're. You're going like something between 60 to 80 at any given moment, and then you're going off these jumps. And some of them carry pretty far. Like, women's races are typically around 20 to 40 meters, but there are some jumps where, like, I've gone 50, 55 meters, and I. Ever since I was little, I had a kind of scary accident going off of a jump. And ever since then I have, like, recurring images of myself falling off of a jump, like crashing backwards, hitting my head, helmet flies off, like my limbs are flinging around. And that is in a downhill. Without fail. When I see a jump, I'm like, I know that's not going to happen because I know what the technique needs to be. I'm solid in the air, but I have to, like, breathe and, like, focus myself. And I'll literally be in the course, racing it, skiing up to the jump, imagining myself messing it up really, until the moment I go off and I'm like, no, now or never. You better do it right. Yeah.

What is the sports psychologist taught you about how to not fully eliminate the memory of pain from the past, of falling or potentially falling or whatever it might be, but how to know that's happened before so you're not reckless, but also be at peace knowing you've mastered skills to be prepared for this moment?

Yeah. Well, now I've worked with since. Since that first. That first season where I started working with a sports psychologist. I've now worked with several different psychologists, couple different sports psychologists, and now actually just like a clinical, overall psychologist. And.

How helpful has that been?

It's been really. It's been huge. And a lot of it was like learning things about myself that almost maybe got hidden over the years. Maybe I started to shift my focus from the things that were important to me to the things that seemed important to everyone else and just finding a balance. Because both, actually, I feel like both things are important. A lot of times we talk this day and age about self care, self love, and like, just. Just placing emphasis on what's important to you. But if there's people around you that you love, it's okay if their opinions matter to you as well. It's just like find the balance between what seems like it should be a priority and you should Prioritize yourself. But that doesn't mean that you discount what everyone else is saying. It's just like, take it all with a grain of salt. Do your own personal weighing situation and come out with, like, come to your conclusion based off what you think is most important. But I didn't. Like, I didn't necessarily have the balance at that time. So with my first sports psychologist, we. We worked on finding a balance of what's, like, important to me versus what's important to the media or how. Like, I started doing some media prep questions. Like, we would figure out what people might say that would trigger me and give me that. It's not just, like. It's not just puking. It's. It's feeling like you're choking. That's what it is. It, like, triggers. Not that anyone wants to know this, but it triggers a gag reflex. But it literally feels like the collar of your shirt is too tight, and you just. You have this pressure point right here, like your food stuck in your throat, and that just like, that triggers.

It will make you throw up.

Yeah. And.

And you were trying to figure out what's causing that.

I'm like, why do I feel like some, like. Like something's closing in on my throat right now? Because there's literally, like, if you see me in the start, it still happens sometimes, but it doesn't scare me anymore. Like, if I pull down my. My race suit, sometimes it feels like it's right there in my throat, and I'll take my fingers and I'll just pull down my race suit like this. And that's normally, like. That's normally a sign that I'm feeling nervous, but I don't mind it. I'm not. It doesn't necessarily trigger, like, me to go off on the side and, like, puke or whatever. It just. I'm just like, oh, I need a little space in my throat. And it's. I'm comfortable in that space now. But it took me, like, multiple psychologists to get to the level. Like, the last one I worked with. Actually heading into the most recent Olympics, we're talking a lot about being comfortable or getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. And you likely to be uncomfortable when you don't know what the outcome of something is going to be.

Right. And you're not in control.

You're not in control, and you want to be in control. And that was a really, like, that's how I always used to. I didn't care what the outcome was. I really cared how I got there and then would figure it out. Like, when I cross the finish line, then we'll see if I. If it was good enough to win or not.

And why do you care more now, then, than you did then?

I wouldn't. I actually think I've sort of come full circle a little bit now. I almost. It's almost like when I was first starting out, and some of that probably has to do with this season and the record kind of, because, like, basically I. This season, I was like, I don't. Actually. I never felt like I should have been any. The person who was close to resetting this record. I didn't. It wasn't a goal. It wasn't on my radar, actually, ever. Like, I watched, like, Lindsay do that, get there, and I was like, that's happening for her. And I never, ever. I never, ever thought that I would be that one. So even getting that close this season, I was almost, like, didn't want it to happen. I almost wanted Ingemar to stay the record holder for all of eternity.

Why? Why did you not want to break the record?

I just, like.

Why did you want to diminish your own greatness?

Well, I don't know. I. I guess I just felt like if it happened, then. Well, if ever. If it happened, everybody would start calling me the greatest of all time. And I don't see myself that way. And it's like, I do struggle a little bit when the world puts a label that doesn't coincide with my label for myself. So I'm like, I'm a label yourself. I don't even know. I don't. Mikhail Shifrin. Like, I got a name. I don't know. I just. The goat term is just, like, weird to me. I feel. I feel like there's more than one. And the. The. The term itself, it implies that there's only one, but there are more than one. Like, people will debate LeBron James, Michael Jordan, like any of the others, for the rest of eternity. And I think that's good. I think that's a beautiful thing about sports and. And skiing. I hope that people debate, you know, I'm part of the conversation. Like, that in and of itself is enough of a win for me. But I hope you will debate it for the rest of all time. Like, I hope it's part of the conversation that two American women are at the top of the conversation for greatest of all time. Like, that's really cool. That's really cool. For American ski racing, for us, for our sport, for lifting the sport up in the US And I don't want to take that title. Like I want it to be the conversation. Because the con, the conversation means people are talking about it and interested and I just don't see myself taking that over. And I want Ingamar, like I want him to be the legend that never, like his name never ever disappears from the sport because he set the sport on the trajectory it is. So there's all these reasons why I like was sort of conflicted about that. But in the end of the day I just felt like, well, I'm not retiring. I'm doing well at this right now. If I keep skiing, if I keep skiing this way, I probably will break the record realistically. Break probably. Reset. I don't like the break term either. Reset.

Now you're skiing. You know, when I said breaking a.

Break so realistically it was going to happen. So I was like, whatever, it'll happen when it happens. And just like letting that go and just not caring about was like the beginning of my career when I sort of was just interested in finding out what my potential was. Right.

Less pressure and seeing what you're capable of. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you say you're at currently with your level of inner peace and self belief, confidence in yourself? 10 being the highest one, being the lowest.

Inner peace is probably, probably somewhere. I went around like a 5 to an 8 on any given day.

And self confidence, that's probably more like a two. Self confidence, a two.

No, I'm not a very confident person.

It's low right now.

It just always is.

Why do you have low self confidence though, when you're constantly winning and also just performing at a high level consistently?

I don't know. I. My mind, I. I don't know. I just have like insecurities that I don't. I think everybody has them. I'm pretty comfortable not being extremely confident. And I actually like my argument. It might not be a very popular opinion, but I don't think confidence has to be part of it. Like there's belief is important for sure. Believing more because it just helps you have the courage to try. And that's the most important thing. If we're really getting down to the nitty gritty, is just having the courage to try despite the chance that you might fail and you might fail publicly and you might get a lot of backlash and that's probably going to hurt. Like knowing that the outcome could be incredibly terrible. You still need to go down that road and try. And that is the only confidence that I want to have. But I don't. Like, I don't walk into a room. If I walk into a room full of people, I want to run the opposite direction. And if I'm like, yeah, I just.

I'm glad when you walked in here, you gave me a hug and you didn't run away, but that's because you.

Like, you came up to me, I was like, oh, my God. And you're standing there like, you are literally 10ft taller than I am. You know, like, it's. My mind is, are you afraid of.

People or just environments with, like, crowds or. What's the insecurity about?

I may be a little bit more, like, introverted in nature, but I'm not sure. I. It's like. It's like the fear when you walk into it. I don't know if you ever had this or. But I know some people have this. And anybody watching, like, this dream you have, you walk into the cafeteria, and then all of a sudden you're completely naked and everybody's looking at you. But it's more just like, walk into a cafeteria and there's not a seat. There's no place for you to sit. And so, like, I'm standing there and I'm holding my tray. And this was like, a big issue for me at the ski academy I went to at Burke. If I didn't go to a meal with a friend, then I wouldn't go because I couldn't stand. Or if, like, if I knew I was going to be the first person there, then okay. But if I was a little bit late, I would skip it entirely because I really was like, I cannot deal with the anxiety of standing there with my tray, looking around the room and having everybody sitting there having their conversations, and nobody sees me, so nobody, like, opens up a chair for me to sit down. They all just. Or worse, if somebody. Somebody noticed me and, like, allows me to sit at their table. But they're people that I'm like, maybe they're some of the older students, and I'm a little bit intimidated by them. Like, so I'm just standing there holding my tray, like, oh, my God, what do I do? And I will literally, like, I will go eat in a bathroom stall before I have to deal with that. It's like the mean girl scene. It's like, it's a real thing.

Something happened to you there at the academy that made you feel this way, or is it just.

Everybody was so, like, we're all. I mean, it's 60. It was 60 student athletes at the academy. Like we're family, but I just, I don't see like family in that scene. I see, I see. I don't know, it's like blank. Yeah, I like, yeah. Rejection, whatever. Just.

Do you still feel that today?

Yeah, no, I, I don't love going places where I don't have like some like a wing, my wing woman, my wings. Somebody, a friend, somebody. And then that helps me like the support I have around me gives me confidence and the coaches I have, my mom being there, the team around me, that, that gives me a lot more confidence. But it definitely doesn't come from like myself or my self esteem. A lot of people for a long time even still, it's probably going to be more this season as well because of the record. So I don't know how to handle that yet. But we'll figure it out. But for such a long time, people have told me I should be more confident because I'm the best skier in the world. And this is the last couple years, especially after my dad passed and I came back to skiing and didn't really show a lot of confidence. And I'm, I'm so much about preparation and training. That's the only thing that makes me feel confident going into a race is like feeling like I'm over prepared.

Right.

And a lot of people, even coaches, not necessarily my coaches, but coaches around, like turn them on the peripheral. The head of the ski company that I ski for, it's all incredibly positive and they're all just saying, you should be confident because you, you've earned this spot, you deserve to be here, you can win anything. They say this. I'm like, I still have to go actually do that. Like, it's hard. It's hard, it's stressful. I've experienced the failure I experienced not winning. I, I'm the one that people like crucify on the Internet when I fall in Beijing. Like, I have experienced that. I don't want to, I don't want to dive into that and I don't, I definitely don't want to. Acting like I'm the person who's gonna win everything when I know that that's an outcome that could happen. And, and like they understand it, everybody respects it. But it's been such a, like such a battle to basically say, please don't ask me to be more confident in myself.

What do you wish people would ask you?

I mean, it's not, it's just like you don't, you don't have to be more confident. I guess it's just. It's okay. Like, how you are is okay. And work on. Work on having the courage to try.

Yes.

And that is a form of confidence.

Right. Because we have. If you don't have the courage.

Yeah.

To try, then you're going to be stuck.

Then you're stuck. Then you're stuck. Then you're. Then you're in your room, sitting on your bed, staring at a wall, and you never get anywhere.

So it does take confidence to have courage to act.

Yeah.

And to put yourself out there and do reps after rep after rep and.

Show up consistently and do it and try, even though you might. It just might not work.

So you have confidence in trying and actively pursuing and over preparing. But it sounds like maybe your confidence.

That you're talking about, like social confidence or outside confidence in myself, like that I'm cool or beautiful or this or that, like those things and I don't really have. And that's kind of what you see a lot, especially in American mainstream sports. You see a lot of the buildup. You see a lot of the bling and the hype, and it's like this greatness that's so incredibly great. It's almost. It seems unattainable, Untouchable. Untouchable. It's the sponsorships, it's the money, it's the commercials. It's the commercials. It's all of it. It's what we all want because we want to be built up. You want to be the brand. You want to be the one. You want to be legendary. But it's also like, it's tough to look at that and then go, you know, then go on my own and be like, I don't feel like I want to, like, strut myself.

You're not walking around with swagger all day.

Yeah. Like, why. Why does that person walk around like that and look really cool? And I try to walk around like that and I trip and fall in my face. Why is it. Why are people made like that? Why am I. Why is that me? But I guess it just like it. I kind of feel good as I am now.

Yes. You know, you feel comfortable with who you are.

Yeah, I feel comfortable with who I am.

That's good.

Like, comfort, courage to try.

That's good.

Those are all great things.

Yeah.

But especially for kids, they're so like, this camp that I went to just a few days ago, one of the kids was like, how do you deal with confidence? It was about that. It was like, how do you build up your confidence? And I think For a lot of those kids, it's like it needs to be clarified because what they're seeing, the confidence they think they need to have in order to be successful in sports or anything is, is like the, the material confidence. The, the bling and the glitz and the glam and the cool stuff.

It sounds like courage is the greatest confidence.

Yes, for me that is. And that come. That's like behind the scenes when no one's watching. And I feel like kids need clarification on that because they're walking around with their shoulders down, like, oh, I'm not the coolest person here. And I don't, like, I don't feel that great about myself. And so I'm never going to make it to where my favorite basketball player is. I'm like, whoa, you are talking about completely different. Like, these are totally different mentalities. And just because you saw all of that from your, your favorite athlete doesn't even mean that they're confident. They are also insecure. So like, don't like they're two, they're different buckets you've got. So I just always think of confidence as like the material social thing and like maybe self esteem or courage or. Yeah. Just willingness to try as like the true. What you actually want to be.

Right.

Right.

You want to have that skill set of doing that.

Yeah.

How old are you now? 28. Is that what, 20?

28.

28.

No spring chicken.

20, dude, man. I just, I just turned 40, so I'm trying to get back into college shape right now. I'm training like a machine.

I think you're doing okay.

You know, I appreciate it. I'm curious. 28, the most accomplished ski racer in the world or one of the most. What is your biggest fear moving forward in your career and also in your personal life outside of your career?

I don't really have. Right now. I can't really think of a fear I have in my career. Maybe the only thing might be like injury.

Yeah.

Which has just always been. That's always there. Yeah, I definitely, like, I'm afraid. I do get afraid when I'm skiing. A lot of, a lot of racers will say they don't have any fear, and I definitely do. Yeah, I think it's fine.

Crashing at 60 miles an hour is not fun.

It's not fun.

You got a helmet on. It's not fun.

Not fun. And some would argue you have to. You can't have fear because you have to be willing to do that. And I'm like, well, I'm still Afraid of doing that, but I'm going to do this anyway.

Yeah.

So I think there's all different ways you can approach that.

You don't let the fear hold you back.

Yeah. But I definitely have it. And I think it's. I do think it's important to admit when. To admit when you have fear to yourself, because it's kind of like. It's like a relationship, and you're like, I gotta. I gotta let you know that I'm feeling this right now. And. And then you still. You still go for it.

Yeah, absolutely.

But anyway, that's a different side of things. Probably. I. I think I'm probably going to know a little bit more about what I'm afraid of once we get back into the race season. There's things pop up that I. Right now, I don't feel it. I maybe feel a little bit on top of the world. This past season was amazing. I have nothing else that I expect to do, but I'm still, like. I'm still training. I still feel like I'm doing great with my skiing. And I feel like people have figured out that expectations are sort of meaningless because I've done. I've exceeded them. I've failed miserably. The only thing I can really think of that would be a fear of mine is, like, how it goes in the upcoming Olympics. And mostly, if I were to not win any medals again, how would people react again? But I actually asked somebody, kind of an advisor and one of one of my sponsors recently, and he. I just was like, this is. This is a real thing. Like, I'm afraid to hype myself up going into this next Olympics or allow anybody else to hype me up, because I like, what if it happens again? And Beijing was a very, like, a standalone event there. It was very unique with conditions. There were a lot of things there. Like Covid. There were just a lot of things that built up prior to the Games and during the Games that it's like, it wasn't even. Not. It was fully against me in a way, but everybody has to deal with something that's against them, and some people made it anyway, and I didn't. So there's that. But I still feel like, I don't know, the cards could stack up that way again and I could do my best, and it still might. It still might not work out, and I'm not afraid to try. But I have a little bit of a, like, what are people gonna say then? Because now people still say, you know, like, record Schmeckerd you don't have any gold medals. I'm like, I actually, we talked about this before. I feel the need to defend it. I'm like, I actually do. I have Olympic gold medals and I have many world championship gold medals. So, like, you don't know what you're talking about. But that's like.

So you're. You have a fear of when is the next Olympics?

20, 26.

So what are we, three years away?

Three years away.

Roughly. Three years away. Your fear is in three years, in.

Three years, what happens, what might happen.

If I don't win a medal or if I'm not a gold medalist again? What will people say about me?

Yeah, a little. Maybe a little bit.

How is that serving and supporting you in your life right now just kind of exists?

It's like, it doesn't have any impact on how I feel for this coming season. And this past season helped me a lot because I did get. I did win world champs medals. And it was sort of like, is it a big event thing? Is it a karma thing? Is it like, what. What is it about this? And there was a lot of. There was a lot of kind of drama surrounding this past world championship.

So it was just like, can she do it?

Yeah. And you did it. Yeah, it were. It was like boiled down to how I skied, but I almost like the, the first race, I did the, the. The combined event. Like, I was skiing great and I skied off the course. I DNF'd again three gates from the finish. And there was like, there is a reason we don't have to get into it now. But it was like, oh, my gosh, it's happening again. I had a great run and then I just. All I needed to do was make it past the last two gates. It's just.

But you were leading.

I was leading. It would have, like, for sure, if I made it to the finish, it would have been a win, but it wasn't because I didn't make it.

Was that a mental error in the moment? Was it a.

It was actually. Well, it was a little bit of a mental error, but it was actually. There was a. There was a section of the course that. It was literally the last two gates of the course that was prepared differently because of the way the sunlight struck the hill, but also because they moved the finish line down from the earlier run. So it was like soft snow for the last two gates of the course. And I saw that and I didn't. Mentally, I didn't adjust to it. So it was a Little bit. It was a little bit mental, for sure. I could have done that differently and made it to the finish, but I did. I was just like, full gas and I didn't adjust.

I want to ask you a few final questions. I could do this conversation for hours with Mikaela. This is inspiring for me. I love talking to athletes who excel at the highest level. So it's really cool to hear your perspective and your. Your thought process on performing, training, coaching, failure, success, all these things. How do you visualize for success? I know you mentioned early on that you, like, you don't really think about winning. You think about the next turn and really the whole course and the process of the course and getting through it. But do you dream and visualize about success the day before, the night before, months before a big event? How does that process work for you?

Yeah, it's kind of like a little bit multifaceted. Like, I will visualize myself winning a race and, like, standing on the podium and the festivities after. I will visualize that, but that's more like I. That's more in the downtime, when I'm daydreaming, when I'm training in the gym and I want to. Like, I need one more set. And I'm like, this is killing me. And that's kind of like.

You think of that?

Yeah, I kind of. That kind of helps me a little bit in those situations. But then there's a visualization, like actual technical imagery of my. Of my skiing and that I do almost every day. I think about skiing, I dream about skiing, and it's. It's literally just dreaming about the way that I want to ski my turns that I think is the fastest way to do it. And when I'm actually, like, right now is sort of the off season, it's a lot more training in the gym. So I'm. I haven't been on snow since end of the end of May. And so right now I'm maybe not thinking about it as much, but I'll be on the snow, on snow again at the end of the month, end of July. And as I get closer to that, I'm going to, like. I'm going to pull up videos and watch my skiing image and look at some of my races from last season, especially the races that I didn't win, to see, like, maybe watch the. Whoever won those races and see what they might have done better and see what I can focus on for these upcoming camps as we get closer to the season.

Where's the snow in July?

I'm going to Mammoth.

There's snow there now.

Yeah, there is snow there. There's snow there now.

I was like, end of July, there's snow somewhere.

I know. Well, it's just mostly.

I gotta get up there.

It's mostly because the west coast got so much snow this winter. Normally it wouldn't be good at this time, but I think it's really good. But then otherwise we'll go to Chile in September.

Oh, that'd be cool.

That's a good time.

That'll be fun. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of my interview. It's called the three truths. So you're 28, but let's imagine you get to live as long as you want to live in this world. Extend your life as long as you want to live, and you get to accomplish and experience all the things you want to experience in life. From skiing, to whatever activities you do after skiing, to life, to family, whatever. Any dreams you have, you get to have them come true. But for whatever reason, you can't leave anything behind. No one can watch the races you've done or any content you've made. You've got a YouTube channel, which is really great. I want people to watch that behind the scenes. But all the things you've created this interview is gone. Hypothetically, it's all gone. But you get to leave behind three lessons you would leave with the world from your life experience. Three things that you know to be true that feel good to you. What would be those three truths or lessons you would share with people?

I think. That it's some. I'm not sure who said this, but failure isn't final. That would be one thing. And that it can actually be a lesson to help you succeed. Two would be everybody needs to compromise sometime. Compromise is part of life and love and relationships. I feel like never forget where you're from is just like your roots and your upbringing and the life that brought you to where you are. Because there's lessons in there and hidden lessons that you'll be learning for the rest of time. I feel like the first, like eight years of life probably taught you everything you need to know, but you just didn't know it then.

Those are beautiful. How can we be of support and service to you?

Oh, goodness.

You've got a, you know, massive following on social media. And I see on Instagram, I see you on the threads lately.

Threads, yeah.

Connect on the threads.

I'm. You're on cherries out on threads.

You got your. You got your YouTube channel, which is, you know, showing really vlogs behind the scenes of your life in between the slopes, which I think is really cool.

Yeah.

Which will have all this linked up for people in the episode. But how can we be of support to you in this season of life?

Oh, my goodness.

You're up for a couple ESPYs.

For a couple SP.

This will come out after the SBS. So we're putting the intention out of good things to happen for you.

I mean, it's maybe less just for me, but ski racing is something I'm clearly passionate about. It's an incredible sport. But skiing in general, and there's so much about the snow sports that's so beautiful. Incredible. The community that the family, the friendships you make along the way. And I always, I always wish that I like, I know so many incredible athletes and people who love skiing, love snowboarding, love, love snow, love snow sports. And I'm like, just say it, tell people, spread the word. Because it is maybe a little bit selfish that I, I want people to do it because I wanted to have a future. And there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot more we didn't get into about climate and everything, but if it's a necessity for humans, we'll find a way to make it environmentally like, forward thinking, progressive and friendly. And I want it to be something that people care about and I feel like that comes with a spark from people talking about it. So mostly what you've already done, bringing me on the show and talking, that's actually support enough, of course for me.

Personally, but for skiing, go ski and snowboard.

Just try it.

I'm a big snowboarder. I haven't done it in the last couple years, but I want. Hearing about going to Mammoth makes me want to go now this. So if you ever do like a, a weekend camp, you know.

I know, yeah, we should do it.

Let me know and invite me and my girlfriend will come up and.

Oh, that would be so fun.

Spread the message of skiing to the world.

So I need to think about that.

Yeah, you should put on your own kind of like weekend adventure floor for people still.

Oh, that would be great. That's a great idea.

Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge you, Mikayla, for your courage because I think the courage to say that you aren't that confident in certain areas of your life I think is really inspiring because I think a lot of people look at you and think she wins constantly by large gaps and she's won all these medals and she's the most winningest, you know, skier of all time and all these things, and thinking you have this confidence in you, which I know you do, but I hear you saying that you don't in certain settings of life. So I really acknowledge you for having the courage to talk about that and also giving language to what it means to be great at something you do. You can still be nervous, you can still be insecure, but having the courage and trying and doing it to the best of your ability is what it's really all about. So you've embodied that for, really, the last, I guess, 10, 12 years, since you've been on the scene of skiing and really putting yourself out there. So I acknowledge you for your courage and your confidence, which you're very confident to me, so I acknowledge you for that. Mikayla, my final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

I think greatness is the feeling that you get when you do or experience or watch something that gives you the shivers down your spine. The sort of inspiration, just the feeling like, I can't believe I'm part of this moment. I remember in 2016, when I was at the Olympics in Rio, I got hurt right before that Olympics, like, two months before Olympic trials. And training was going so well up until that point. And then I had this horrible ankle injury, and I tore all these ligaments in my ankle. I couldn't run. I couldn't even walk. I was literally in the.