Holocaust Survivor REVEALS How To Find MEANING & PURPOSE In Life | Edith Eger & Lewis Howes

So I had to go back to Auschwitz, to that lion's den and look at the lion in her face to reclaim my innocence, to assign the shame and guilt to the perpetrator.

I think you gotta have a dream.

The school of greatness.

Really?

Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howard. Well, what would you like people to know about you and how would you want to be?

I'd like to be known as someone who, who did everything in her power, everything to see to it that it will never happen again. I'm into prevention. I don't ask why me, I see what now. Why is a past oriented world a problem oriented world? I like to deal with the present and think young. So when a man takes me out and is trying to figure out how old am I? I'm gonna ask him to take me home. Because if he's into numbers, he's not my man.

What should he be into?

I think he would be interested in perhaps what really gives me joy. What is that joy in my heart like? I have joy knowing that I have three children. I have five grandchildren and seven great grandsons, all sons.

Great grandsons, all sons, no girls.

Yeah. So I think it's good to really know that. Many people ask me, write a book, write a book, write a book. And I would say automatically, I have nothing to say. I have nothing to say. I have a lot to say. And so do you. And you're committed to really change. The people who don't think that they matter because there never be another you. You're one of a kind, diamond. I see it in your eyes. You know, you're very precious.

Thank you.

You're very, very precious. And I know many people probably have changed because they knew that what they're doing now, they are revolving, not evolving.

What does that mean, revolving, not evolving?

Revolving that you go back and do the same thing over and over again and expect different results repeating the same thing, which is the definition of insanity.

Someone said that said Einstein, I think, right?

Yeah, I think it was Einstein.

Yeah. I'm curious now. You have seven grand grandsons, right? Seven grandsons, I think. Are the two twins, the two year olds, Are those the youngest grandsons you have?

Youngest, yeah.

So there's 93 years ish. Between you and your youngest grandsons.

And they come with their head because they know I'm gonna kiss it.

So they just come and bring their little head.

I. I don't know other people who kiss that hand.

That's beautiful. That's great. But I do, I'm curious, what is the, the you know, they. At this moment, they don't know the type of life you've had. Right. Not until they're a little older will they understand the stories and hear the stories about your whole experience from what, you know, their great grandmother went through and how you overcame so many challenges and obstacles and how you became a member of society for hope and inspiration. I'm curious, if you could share three lessons with them to set them up for their life, what would those three lessons be?

I probably would tell them that I will never forget what happened. I don't know what means to overcome. I don't think I really know exactly what that means, but I came to terms with it. I call it my cherished wound.

Cherished wound?

Yes. I cherish the wound that I learned in the classroom of Auschwitz.

How does someone learn to cherish their wounds with something so tragic?

You don't appreciate what you have until we lose it. See, if you take me out to dinner, and you might do that, take me out to lunch, I think I'm going to eat up my food and then I'm going to pick up your leftovers. And if I don't do that, I'll take it home. I never waste any food. I never leave food on my plate or in your plate. I do something with it and I give it away. You know?

Why do you do that?

One time I had a party and I had a lot of leftovers, and I went out and I saw someone at the corner waiting, and I gave them the food.

Why is that something you do?

I thought, you know, they must be hungry, but they didn't want food, they wanted money, so they threw it back at me. I don't want your goddamn food. Give me money. Right, yeah.

What's another thing you'd share with your grandkids, your great grandkids?

Right? Now, they're too young to listen to anything but my great grandson, 15, 12, and 10. And they're very interested in grammar. And I'm very interesting person to be with. I have a lot to say and not what happens, it's what you do with it.

Right. I think the coming to terms with the cherished wound, it's like creating meaning around what happened.

Right, exactly. The existential vacuum. Frankl used to refer to that. And it's very important to know that it's not clinical depression.

Why do people get that confused?

Yeah. Well, I had two paraplegics, both coming from Vietnam. Same symptomatologist, same diagnosis. Okay. And one of them was in a kind of a Fetal position.

Why me?

How could anyone do this to me? Blaming God, blaming, you name it. The country, of course. Conversely, the other one said to me, same symptomatology, same diagnosis, same prognosis. He said to me, hey, doc, I was wearing a white coat. And it said, Dr. Eager, Department of Psychiatry. Okay. He says, hey, Doc, I'm so grateful that I sit in a wheelchair because I can reach my children much closer.

Oh, my goodness.

Can you believe it? And I can reach the flowers much closer. And I felt like the biggest imposter because I had a 16 year old in me that I ran away from. I really wasn't qualified to take them further because I have not taken myself.

Wow.

You know, I went to school and I went to school and, you know, I became Dr. Edith Ivaiga. But I never really did the work and really the healing work.

When did you go back?

I asked my sister to come with me, probably in the seven days. And she told me, I'm an idiot. And that was the end of that. My sister coming with me, and I went alone. And today, the work I do to revisit the places where you've been, to relieve that experience. But then you revise your life, relive.

The experience and then revise your life.

Exactly.

Rewrite the story.

It's not going back. It's a new beginning.

Oh, wow. So when you went there, what opened up for you? Did you feel a lot of sadness and pain, or is that where you started to rewrite it?

I was angry and I didn't know what to do with anger. I ran from it, but I was angry. I was mad as hell. And I had to find a way to turn depression into expression.

What happens if we continue to run from anger in our lives?

We just build it up. It doesn't go away.

You can't run away from it.

You cannot run away. It's better to face it, not fight it or run from it. No. So I did go back to Auschwitz and today, the work, I do that. Yes. I hold your hand and visit your little room, your little home, the hallway. And you're holding my hand. I'm taking you out of there.

Wow.

Because that was then and this is now. And you can find that little boy in you, the little girl in you, and buy him an ice cream cone. And because that little boy is crying.

What happens if we never revisit the little boy or girl inside of us?

Unresolved grief.

Wow.

And I think that's what therapy is. It's all grief work, not what happened what didn't happen? Because I remember when my granddaughter asked me to buy her a beautiful dress, which I am very good at buying good dresses so she could go to Bishop School to a dance. And I come home and out of the blue I'm crying. The word understand, I didn't understand what's the matter with me. I just bought little precious Lindsay a beautiful dress. I think it was a Laura Ashley original. But I realized that I'm not crying because Lindsay is going to the dance. I cried because I never went to a dance. So I think the unresolved grief is important to make peace with.

So when something like that happened for you or happens in any of our lives, what can we do to face it? And I have a photo on my phone of myself when I was younger. Right.

I'm that little boy.

Exactly. To go back into those places that were wounded and have a conversation. And I talk to him and I.

Reflect and I go back and see the feeling. Rather than talk about the feeling, let him feel it. What we do in America, we're hearing, but maybe not listening. It's very good to repeat what you hear and they tell you whether it's true or false. I think it's very important to write your book.

So you said anger is something that.

Not the primary emotion.

It's not the primary. So when someone feels anger, what is it they really feel?

Fear.

Afraid of what?

Fear of being found out.

That your true self is it fear of being found out, your true self is not lovable or not enough or you're never going to amount to anything, or it's never going to. No one's going to accept you.

You're a fake.

Oh, wow. Do you think everyone feels that way at some point in life?

I think it very seldom that a person never regresses anything. I think it's important to acknowledge that you say to yourself, if I knew them what I know now, I could have done things differently.

Right.

And that's it. That's the end of that.

That's it.

That's it.

But why do we hold on to the pain so long? And why do we shame ourselves and beat ourselves up emotionally? Because we didn't have the knowledge when we were 5 or 10 or 16 or 20.

Maybe we didn't have good role models that it's okay to feel any feelings without the fear of being judged. There is no right feeling or wrong feeling. There is only my feeling. And underneath of anger is fear. So it's very good to ride on all your fears from the least Anxiety producing to the most anxiety. And then we knock them down. Because you were not born with fear. You were born with love, joy, and passion for life.

I love that you say this because I feel like I'm full of passion. You are. You're feisty.

I like it.

Yes, sir.

I love this idea of writing down your fears and then knocking them down.

Knocking them down because you were not born with them. You learned it.

When did you start to knock down your fears? How old were you, roughly?

I think I was 16 in Auschwitz. And I developed inside something that I cherish today. My inner resources that I don't look at like life from outside in. And I give up my need for other people's approval.

You did that when you were 16.

I did that. Wow.

You gave up your need for other people's approval then. Exactly what does that do for you when you give up the need?

It give me my true self, your authentic, expressive self, that I am my own good mommy to me. And then I ask, is this empowering me or depleting me? If I'm going to have alcohol, I'm messing with my brain.

So you're not going to do something to try to look good in front of others and try to make others like that?

What the neighbors think about us? Yes. I think very important for children, especially for the father, to be a good role model to the children. The way he treats the children's mother, his wife.

Mm.

How should the father treat the mother? Specifically?

Raise your voice when you're angry. In English, you start the sentence with you, you are stupid. You. When you hear you, you're gonna be dumbed on. And you say to yourself, the longer they took, the more relaxed I become. You take the negative stimuli, turn it immediately into something positive. I think there is a Mexican psychiatrist who wrote a little book that is very valuable, and it's called the Four Agreements.

So good. Don't take anything personally.

Don't take it personally.

It's so powerful. How does someone learn to not take it personally? If someone's saying, you did this and you're stupid and you're. How do you learn to just be peaceful around it?

I know better. That's what you think. And this is what I feel. And men are not taught to feel the feelings. They talk about the feeling. They analyze the feeling. They medicate the feeling rather than just feeling the feeling. A good cry. What comes out of your body will never make you ill. What stays in there does like posture. Now you have to get it out.

Get it out so that's how.

Scream it out.

Scream it out.

In the car, in a pillow, scream, cry, and then laugh like a hyena and you feel better.

Laugh like a hyena. Yeah, get it out, shake it out. How should a wife be around her husband with her kids?

So what is happening? The husband comes home and the wife already knows just by looking at him that there is something going on. But she doesn't say anything because he doesn't say anything either. Because he's scared. If he's going to say something, things are going to get worse.

She's scared.

She's scared. They both scared, but they don't really sit down, which I do really, to make them really see what's really going on. But down the line, if they don't do that, they will miss passion and life for sure. I don't know what else right now to think of. Passion. Joy. Joy and passion for sure. So if you want joy and passion, have a fight. But pay attention. How you finish a fight.

How should you finish the fight?

That's right. That you can agree to disagree that not to. I'm right, you're wrong, I'm good, you're bad. None of that. We're human. We do make mistakes and we have a good talk about it and hopefully learn from it so we won't repeat it.

Right? Right. You worked with Viktor Frankl too, Right. Didn't you work with him?

I worked with Viktor Frankl very much. I remember we were in Germany and we danced together.

You danced together?

Yes.

Was he a good dancer?

And he said something. Is this the last tango? I think it was Regensburg or one of those places where we had our conference. Viktor Frankl was like you, a kind of a Renaissance man. He was taking flying lessons when I met him. He was in his 70s. He died when he was 92. But he was truly my mentor.

What was your biggest lessons from him that he taught you?

The logotherapy. Logo means finding purpose and meaning in your life. It's called the existential vacuum that most people are called clinical depression.

Is clinical depression a thing or is there a way to get out of it without medication?

Yeah, well, we pathologize. We pathologize too much. I think it's very good to make the diagnosis that doesn't have to pathologize like, I'm sad, I'm scared, you know, to use the language that it doesn't have to go to diagnosis. And medical medicine is important. You know, we have our blood and that needs to be hopefully valid, tended to we have our environment. But the way you respond to the other two. I have a choice to respond or react. When you react, you don't think, how.

Does someone learn how to pause when there's an event, when there's a trigger.

Take a deep breath. And if that doesn't work, take another deep breath.

Keep breathing until you react.

Keep breathing. Because you cannot change what's outside of you.

The environment, the event, what occurs.

You really are very powerless. But you have power. The way you choose to take the negative and turn it into positive. Because suffering makes you stronger. Suffering is part of life.

Is there a way to minimize suffering in our lives?

You learn from history so you won't repeat it. Yes. That's why it's good to write a book. Write a book. People told me for years, write a book, write a book. And I would say, I have nothing to say. I have nothing to say. But then Philip Zimbardo one morning calls me and says, you know, Edie, the people who survived and are famous are all men. We need a female voice. And that's my book, the choice, Right. A female voice of Victor Frank.

Wow, that's beautiful. You mentioned. I want to ask you about the fear, the fears again. Writing down a list of your fears and then knocking them down. What happens internally when we start to knock these fears down and we over.

You replace it with something else. See, when you're in a car and you have to switch gears, you know, it talks to you, the car. So what you need to do is switch gears and release the clutch. What are you holding on to? My definition of love is the ability to let go.

Let go.

Don't live in the past. You cannot change the past. That's one thing you cannot change is the past. I don't live in the past. I don't forget it or overcome it. That's why I call it my cherished wound. Because part of me was left in Auschwitz. But not the better part, not the bigger part.

How do you reclaim that part from that?

You go back to that place and you can do it in your office with a gestalt chair. Put them in that chair, tie them up and beat them up. Yeah.

Wow.

How could you do this to me? I was only eight years old, you know, and you get it out, scream it out and beat them up.

If we don't get that emotion out, then we're the ones that suffer, right?

Yeah. Because forgiveness has nothing to do with me forgiving you for what you did to me. I don't have any Godly power at all. But I do have a power to look at everything that happened into an opportunity, for an opportunity. And that was Auschwitz. The biggest classroom, the most important one I have gone to.

Wow. So do we need to forgive the person that created the pain? Do we need to forgive ourselves? What is harder?

I think we create a time when I give myself permission. That's a very good word. Give myself permission to let go of the pain and replace it with self love, which is self care, which is not narcissistic. Love yourself is not narcissistic.

Yeah. So give yourself. Give myself permission to let go of the pain from the past.

Permission is a key word.

And then replace it with self love.

You know, if I could meet Dr. Mengele now, I really wanted to meet him. And I found out where he was, but I never really ended up meeting him in person. He went to South America. Most of the Nazis went through. The Roman Catholics somehow helped them to go through then to go to South America.

What would you have said to him if you could have met him? What would you have said to him?

I would probably tell him, I have no idea what I would have done if I would have been in your shoes. You must have felt very powerful sending my mother to the gas chamber. Because he asked me, is this your sister or is this your mother? I still want to cry. And now that stupidly I said, it's my mother. Because I could not forgive myself. That if I would have said my sister, she wouldn't have gone to the gas chamber. But then I had to recognize that I did what I could.

You did the best.

And I did the best I could. So forgiving yourself and not to judge yourself, you got to really, truly do the work.

Yeah. That's powerful. I'm curious.

Suffering is make you stronger.

How much?

Don't ask for it.

I don't want suffering.

Please.

You don't want. You don't need to ask. No, no, no. But it makes you strong.

It happens. Recognize that it's temporary.

Yes. Yes.

And you can survive it. So you become your own good parent.

Yes.

Are you a good parent to you now?

I am, yeah. After a lot of the healing work.

Yeah.

Now I'm a very good parent to myself. Yeah. I feel a lot of peace inside, but I didn't feel that for years. Yeah.

You say what you live.

Yeah.

That's good.

Yeah. It's a constant journey, you know.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you.

But a lot of your.

You know, the first time I interviewed you, I was really inspired by how you Shared so much wisdom about how to not take things personally and how to reinterpret. When someone's saying something to you, just say, well, I actually you're saying the opposite to yourself of like how you love yourself and how you're generous and kind. So I really appreciate that.

You know, just a very simple question. Whatever you're doing now, you ask how is it working for you?

Yeah.

Is it empowering you or depleting you?

And I'm curious about potential. You know the potential that each one of us has as human beings.

Yes.

How much of our potential is limited or blocked or shut down if we do not learn to heal the different traumatic moments of our life? Can we still reach our potential if we don't face trauma? Or is it going to be limited?

I think we're going to be chronic victims. And every time you are a victim, you're going to find the victimizer. Or you fluctuate between victim becoming victimizer. And it's very important to think about what you're going to say before you say it. Whether it's important, whether it's necessary, and whether it's kind. If it's not kind.

Is it important? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

It's kind, yeah. If it's not kind, you just not gonna say it, don't say it.

How do we create a life where we don't become victims, where we are empowered? No matter what happens, even if there is something that occurs in life, an event that feels like we are a victim, how do we turn it so that we aren't a victim? Because I feel like being a victim is disempowering.

You cannot be a victim without a victimizer. If you're a victim, you're always going to find a victimizer. Or you fluctuate between victim. Because victims are weak and victimizers are strong. So part of the psyche will identify with the aggressor. That's what we call a Stockholm syndrome.

Is there moments in life where we should be victims or is it never a good time to be a victim?

I think.

I does anything good. Come on.

I never see myself that my identity would be being a victim. I have no room for that in my life. I'm not a victim. I was victimized. It's not who I am, it's what was done to me. Very different. Very different that I'm innocent. Because yesterday's victims can easily become today's victimizers.

That's true.

I'm sure you know a great deal about that.

Tell me Well, I mean, I was. I don't know if you know this, but I was sexually abused when I was 5 years old by a man that I didn't know, a babysitter's son. And he was probably 16, 17. And I've talked about this many times on my show. But for 25 years, I was angry about it. I held on to the anger, the frustration, you know, and I wanted to get back at people and I wanted to. And I always felt like there was an abuse happening to me, like people were abusing me in life. That was kind of the wound that I didn't heal. And when I started the healing journey 10 years ago, I really allowed myself to let that go and forgive myself and forgive.

Go through the rage.

All of it. Yeah. I mean, it was a process.

You cannot forgive without going through the rage.

I went through it. Yeah. And when I thought about it, I was like, okay, well, maybe this child, maybe this.

If you go to therapy, ask your therapist to sit on you.

To sit on me?

Yeah. And don't let you get up. You have to fight your way up and get them off of you. Give it to him but good. Get that thing.

Get it out.

There is a difference between revenge and forgiveness.

Yes.

Revenge gives you a satisfaction momentarily. Very momentarily. Beautifully said. Forgiveness gives you freedom. So I had to go back to Auschwitz, to that lion's den and look at the lion in her face to reclaim my innocence, to assign the shame and guilt to the perpetrator.

Not on yourself.

No.

Yeah.

No more. I'm free.

Did you feel free from that moment forward, or did you have to go back a few times and really let it out more?

I think it's a lifelong process.

Yeah.

Really? I didn't have to go back to Auschwitz? No, not at all. One of the things I was asked by physicians, which was interesting. Have I ever saw birds in Auschwitz?

Ever saw birds?

I never saw birds in Auschwitz.

Why is that?

I guess the smell. Birds are probably pick up the terrible smell.

Wow. How long were you there for again? Do you remember?

I was there from May until December.

That's a long time.

Yes. You know, my daughter called me from Auschwitz and she said, I'm wearing a fur coat, I'm wearing boots and I'm freezing. What did you do, Mom?

Oh, my gosh.

I didn't have any boots, I didn't.

Have any fur coat.

I had a little flimsy, little something, and I did what I needed to do.

How did you keep your spirit strong enough to survive that?

It's temporary.

You told yourself this is temporary.

I don't like it, it's inconvenient. And don't say but. And it's temporary because after all, it is temporary. I don't know where we're going from here. Maybe I'm going to meet my mom and you see what I miss that I never had a mother doodle talk.

After that.

Well, when you get married, you talk to your mother about sex, about money, about in laws, God knows what else.

Didn't have any of those conversations.

Any have those conversations I didn't have.

What do you wish your mom would have told you?

It just for me not to fake anything, to be my true self. You know, my mother told me that I'm glad you have brains because you have no looks. You know that. And so I became a very erudite.

Person.

I had my own book club. I read the Interpretation of Dreams by Freud when I was 14. Very different. And nowadays children are not really as curious. I was always very curious, what's going to happen next, where I'm gonna go from here. You're very curious. And I think the curiosity helped me to survive.

Wow. The curiosity.

The curiosity.

Well, I'm glad I'm a curious person then. You know, I'm always asking questions and very curious sometimes.

You're Jewish, you know, you ask a question and you answer it with a question. How are you? Well, how do you think I am?

I like that. So something happened this weekend and you were contemplating whether you wanted to come here.

Yes.

And we got a message yesterday that you weren't going to come. But then you did want to come.

Yeah.

And I'm so sorry for your loss about your sister.

Thank you.

From this weekend. And I want to know why you wanted to come here after your sister's passing this. This weekend.

To bring you my true self that I'm grieving and feeling and healing. My sister is with me. The spirit never dies. And I hope I'll be happy in my deadbed. And I'm not going to ask what the world has given me, but you and I are going to probably ask, how can I contribute to the world that makes us human beings getting together and see how we can empower each other with our differences. You can be you and I can be I and just empower each other. You do it your way, I do it my way.

When we think about the perspective of what will the world give me versus what can I bring to the world and to humanity.

Yes.

Why do some people think what will the world give me and what is the trap behind thinking that way versus how can I be of service to the world?

Well, there are givers and takers, and hopefully I am a giver. And I will do less blaming and pushing myself for more and more and more. You know, I just do the best I can. And that's good enough. Yeah, good enough is good enough.

Have you been blaming for a while?

I have been maybe rough on myself that I could do more than I'm doing. But I am forgiving myself that I give and do the best I can do. I do get up in the morning and I look at life as one day the morning sunshine will not come back. And I'm very comfortable at 95, hoping maybe that I do what's humanly possible and then hand it over to God.

Beautiful. I've got a few more questions I want to ask you, but I wanted to ask the biggest lessons that your sister taught you because you both experienced a very tragic event for many months together. You both, you know, learned to heal and you came together, and you've had a great experience with her. What have been the biggest lessons that she taught you? Because she was your older sister, Correct, My older sister.

I was the youngest in the family.

The most charming. Right. In the family.

I think my parents really wanted a son after two girls, and I came along and that was not what they wanted. And I felt it. Magda was a very good survivor. She was full of jokes. We always talked about food. That's all we talked about. I think she stopped really living. And it's been now perhaps many, many months or maybe years that she gave up her piano. She gave up her piano lessons and she gave up bridge. She was a bridge player. I think she played with Omar Sharif. But I cannot guarantee you. But Magda has been extremely brilliant with numbers. So what she did in school, she did your homework, but she didn't want your money. She wants you to bring her food. A roast beef sandwich, God knows. Fried chicken, maybe. Fried chicken was always very good. My mother bought little chickens and it was so delicious. Or Hungarian salami. Have you been to Hungary?

I haven't been, no. I've been to Poland and other places in Europe, but. No, not hungry. I'll have to go.

Yeah. I think the Hungarians are good survivors, as a rule.

What's the thing you'll hear?

There is a song in Hungary that the woman is best when she's beaten up. It's not very kind.

Yeah, it's not kind of.

Hungarian women learned how to deal with men and Give them compliments even when they don't deserve it. So women are wise. Not smart, but wise. How to go through the man's stomach and make him the food that he likes. Like a certain roast beef that you make in Hungarian style, or the chicken with a lot of paprika on it and garlic on it. I make a very good garlic chicken.

You do?

I make it.

Next time I'm in San Diego, I'm gonna get some vegetables.

Tell me, and I will.

I'm there for the chicken.

I do. I'll do the chicken.

The chicken and a dance with you.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. What would you say is the thing you hold in your heart dearest about your sister, the thing you'll. You'll take with you? Yeah.

She had a lot of humor. A lot of humor about men and women I didn't have at all, and I don't have that kind of sense of humor.

You've got a great sense of humor.

I do. What?

Different.

Different?

Yes. I have a question about your. Your. Your secret to living a long, healthy life. With experiencing pain, tragedy, trauma, loss, sadness. You continue to thrive in your life.

You see, when you were touched inappropriately, you probably would have come to me and say, edie, I don't know how to tell you that, because you went to Auschwitz. And my answer would be, I knew the enemy. You didn't. Don't minimize it. You have the right to be angry, but not to hold on to it or live by it. You got to go through the rage, scream it out, but don't get addicted to it. Don't do anything in excess. Drinking, smoking.

Raging.

Rage is fear. And the biggest fear of a child is the fear of abandonment. That is important, especially in midlife. That is not a crisis, but a transition. You don't have your periods anymore, but, you know, who wants to have babies anyway? No problem. But I work with midlife issues a lot on a daily basis, and it's. It's a new beginning. Yeah, it's a new beginning. You become older and wiser, not old and sinner.

Right.

So you're gonna write another book?

Yeah, working on another book, which has a lot of teachings about healing in the book as well, so. And overcoming that. But that's part of the vision. But I'm curious for you, though. What do you feel has been one of the keys to living a long, healthy life with challenges and trying to.

Lie to yourself and not to. Not to try to please other people, Give up the need for approval of others? I think that's Number one, if you like me, fine. If you don't, that's okay. It doesn't mean I was rejected. Rejection is an English word that people make up to express a feeling. When you don't get what you want, give up the drama.

Yeah.

No one can reject me but me.

That's true.

Don't say I was rejected. Nobody has any power.

But you can reject yourself.

You can.

And that's the biggest betrayal if you do it to yourself.

You better have a talk with yourself. Find that little boy who is still crying and looking for a good, loving parent.

Yes. Yes.

And be a good mommy to you. Do you feel like you eat your spinach?

Do you feel like you've been a good parent to yourself over the years?

I could have been better. But the two questions are important. Number one, when did your childhood end? If you're a child of an immigrant, you end up taking care of your parents.

You never had a childhood.

You never had a childhood. Very important. The second question is, would you like to be married to you?

Yeah. That's a good one.

Yes. You gotta reflect people to ask themselves.

What do people say? Usually.

No, no, no, no. It's up to you. Who do you attract?

That's true. That's true. Is there anything else you'd like to share today? Anything else that's opening up for you that you want to Talk about?

My 95th birthday party.

When is it?

A couple weeks ago.

Wow.

I was. Thank you.

95.

Thank you.

Feeling alive. 95.

Feeling young.

Young. Young, energetic, Passionate.

That's right. Dancing, celebrating. So the question is, how can you turn life into a constant celebration?

I love that. How do you do that?

Every moment is precious. Never throw out a piece of bread. Only buy what you eat.

Yeah.

Cook for yourself. Don't go to a restaurant so much because it has a lot of salt and a lot of sugar.

Yeah. Tastes so good, though.

Cook. Cook.

Yeah.

Cook for yourself and enjoy every moment in life.

Right. That's beautiful.

Don't procrastinate. And get rid of perfectionism.

I love those.

Yeah. You're human. You're gonna make mistakes. That's fine.

You've got a couple of amazing books, the Choice and the Gift, which I'm a big fan of. And I know for years you said you didn't have anything to write about, but those books are incredible. I highly recommend people getting them. Oprah loved them as well, and, you know, shared them out and talked to you about those. It's really impacted a lot of people in life. So I really appreciate and acknowledge you for how you continue to thrive, how you continue to serve and give back to so many of us in our lives. So I really appreciate and acknowledge you.

Thank you, doctor.

Either for your. Your service and your wisdom, your joy. I want people to get your books. We'll have it all linked up for people. But you also have a course which is really inspiring as well.

Yes, we have a wonderful course and I think we have now about 2,000 people who signed up. But I think it's very important, hopefully for me to write a book for teenagers.

Are you going to be doing that now?

I would like to do that. I like to really see that teenagers can become ambassadors.

That's beautiful.

Ambassadors for peace, teens of the future and goodwill. I think we need to take the children seriously and have conversations with them. That is age appropriate.

Yes. I can't wait for that book. You have to let me know so we can have you back on for that book as well.

Exactly.

The course. I know you have a free course about forgiveness as well. So I want people to get the free course. And we'll have it all linked up on your site, Dr. Edith egger.com.

And forgiveness has a great deal to do with letting go. Letting go. So my definition of love is the ability to let go.

Yeah. Whatever you're holding on to, let it.

Go, let it go.

Yeah.

Not going back. A new beginning. So you're pregnant and you're going to give birth to the you that was meant to be free. Freedom is everything. Freedom from the concentration camp that is in your own mind. And the key is in your pocket.

Wow. That's a part of your free course that people can get right now. And then if they want even more, you've got your advanced course unlocking your potential. So I want people to get both of those.

Good.

That's beautiful. Okay, I have two final questions. Do you have time for two more questions?

Sure.

Okay. I believe I asked you this last time, but I want to ask you again. And it's called the three truths question. So it's a hypothetical question.

Truth is all subjective.

Exactly.

My truth, your truth.

Exactly. Exactly. So I want you to imagine a hypothetical scenario. For whatever reason, you have to take all of your books and conversations and courses and work with you somewhere. We don't have access to your content and all we have access to are these three truths, these three lessons that you've learned in your life that you'd like to share with the world. What would be those three truths that you could share if you could only Share three things and we wouldn't have access to any other content you've created. What would be those three truths?

Suffering makes me stronger. Become your own good parent to you. And find your little child in you who is crying and asking for a good parent. And you show up for that child, the little boy, the little girl. And how anything you do, ask yourself whether it's empowering you or deplete you.

These are three powerful things.

And don't say, just this time, nobody's gonna find out. You know, I'm gonna have this drink just now. Don't worry.

Yeah. Is it empowering or depleting you? Yeah, that's beautiful.

You need to know whether it's really important that you become your own good parent.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

And then whether you're going to act upon it or not, positive thinking has nothing to do with anything unless it's followed with a positive action.

That's beautiful. Well, Dr. Edith, I want to acknowledge you. I appreciate you for how you continue to show up, how you continue to serve, how you continue to give.

That's what it's all about.

Your joy, your generosity, your attention, your time and your wisdom. So I really acknowledge and appreciate you. I'm so grateful for you. And I can't wait to have some chicken from you soon.

That's right.

I'm going to come and get some chicken from you.

We're going to have chicken together. But most of all, we're going to be colleagues and recognize that none of the academic knowledge really does any good unless you really have the knowledge of your life's work that you chose not to be a victim or the victimizer ever.

Yeah, that's beautiful. My final question, what's your definition of greatness?

Is to show up for life.

There you go. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Appreciate you. Thank you.

If you enjoyed that interview, then I.

Know you'll love what we have coming up right now.

You're one of the few thriving survivors of the Holocaust, and you talk about in your book the Gift, that the actual experience for you was a gift. How can you view such a traumatic experience for you, with a lot of pain and loss as any sort of a gift at all? How is that even possible?

Experience like Auschwitz was viewed very differently by many people. Some people entered Auschwitz and were so angry that they started to hit the guards and they were shot right in front of me. And then there were others who ran into the barbed wires and they were electrocuted. So, you know the stress studies by Hans Selye tells us that anything stressful that comes to us, you have two automatic responses. You either fight or flee. But none of those worked in Auschwitz. So I call Auschwitz a classroom and a discovery. Discover my inner resources, how I was able to turn the experience, to discover how I looked at the guards, that they were more imprisoned than I was, that they were brainwashed. And if you like to read the book by Max Weber, it's called Capitalism and the Protestant Ethics, referring to the Jewish people as a pariah. And if you read Plato, he's gonna tell you that the power of suggestion means that you think of a lie, it has to be a big one, and then you repeat it, repeat it until people believe it. And I think this is very important for people to question authority and not just to fight or flee, but learn how to flow in a situation and discover the inner resources. And that is the gift to turn hatred into pity. To be able to look at the guards and knowing that I could actually pray for them and I had my freedom within me, that they could throw me in a gas chamber any minute. I had no control over that. They would torture me and beat me, but they could never, ever murder my spirit. That's what I bring you today, that spiritual, wonderful, loving, forgiving person that is not having time to be against, but to be for something, for life and for uniting, for empowering each other with our differences, that you can be you. You can like your own music, and I can like my music that you call supermarket music. I like the big band because I was liberated by the 71st infantry, and I learned in 1945 how to dance the Woogie woogie.

All right, we'll have to dance. When I meet you in person.

You can have your music and I can have my music. And we can agree to disagree, and we can just empower each other with our differences at all times.

I have so many things I want to ask you about how you were able to have compassion and understanding and pity on the guards when you're in a moment of stress and chaos and fear for your life every day. And I would love to ask some of these practical questions later in this interview, but I'm curious if you could educate my. My audience and listeners about a little bit about your story of how you even got into the, you know, the camps and the whole process of your life before then to when you got there, what that was like?

Well, I was born into a Jewish family, and my parents had two beautiful girls, Magda, who is still alive, and Clara, who was a brilliant Violinist and my parents wanted a son and I came along, so I was really a runt. And my sister sang songs about me because I was cross eyed, that I'm ugly and puny. And my mother one day told me very seriously, I'm glad that you have brains because you have no looks. I think it's very important for people today to really see what messages they carry with them in their own head. So they can really recognize that you can rewrite your script. I'm not here to be angry at my mom, but I became a very erudite teenager. I read the Interpretation of Dreams by Freud. I had my book club and I had my boyfriend. And we worked together and we had our plans, how we going to work as a team and how we going to get married. And that was of course all interrupted. I think it's important to say that unfortunately we still have genocide as we speak. But never in a history of mankind. Such a scientific and systematic annihilation of people existed by 15 highly educated people who the Final Solution, when they celebrated in the evening that they are now able to find a way to put 30,000 Jews in the oven in one day. And I'm part of that Final Solution of Eichmann. You see, we have a Nazi in every one of us. Find the Hitler in you and find the Mother Teresa and the kindness and the goodness. It's all there, I think. God, you know, we are planted here in this earth. And the way we water our plant, the way we are able to. That's why I tell young people, don't spoil pot because it's going to unfortunately interrupt the natural growth of your brain. Don't mess with your brain. Because the best movie you can see is the Karate Kid. That the best power is brain power.

Wax off, wax on.

Isn't it wonderful? Oh, the way he doesn't want to do and go. And that's what you learn in Auschwitz, that somehow you create your inner world. Because during the day I didn't know what will happen next. That's why we are so happy now because we don't know what's going to happen next. When I stood four o' clock in the morning, we didn't know how the day is going to be. We didn't know when we take a shower whether gas is going to come out or water is going to come out. So that is really that uncertainty that we are experiencing now. Because when you're angry, you give your power away. There are lots of emotions under the anger there is a lot of pain. Under the anger. And what we do with anger, we either vent it or suppress it. I like to dissolve it. See, once you're angry, you also are experiencing anxiety and most of all, a lot of fear. Anger is not a primary emotion. When I'm angry at you, you don't suffer. I do. I'm very, very selective. Who's going to get my anger?

I'm hearing you say we need to express our emotions. But what if anger is an emotion that we want to express? We can't suppress it. How do we express an emotion where everything is energy?

Anger is energy in motion. Yeah. Energy is something that you have to look at, that you look at your expectation and then you look at reality. You see there is a maybe have to look at again whether your expectations are realistic or unrealistic. And love is not what you feel is what you do that you commit yourself to someone else. I had my sister in Auschwitz. All we had was each other there. So we had to move beyond the me, me, me and commit ourselves to each other and form a family of inmates. If you were just for the me, me, me, you didn't make it.

In your book. You have a great message that your mom share with you before, right.

When you were taking care of car?

Yeah. What did she share with you?

When we were put on a Carol car, my boyfriend said to me, I will never forget your eyes and your hands. So in Auschwitz, I would say to myself, if I survive today, and then tomorrow, I'm gonna be free. And I would ask everybody to tell me about my hands, about my eyes. And my mom told me in the Keller car, she heard me and she said, we don't know where we're going. We don't know what's waiting for us. Just remember, no one can take away from you what you put in your own mind. And that's exactly what happened. Everything was taken away from me, and I still had my mind and my sister.

Was your boyfriend taken away at that point with you as well, or did he?

My boyfriend was taken away in another wagon and he was shot a day before liberation. So when I came home, the first thing I did look for him, and I was told by someone who saw him being shot a day before liberation.

Oh, man.

Isn't it?

That's heartbreaking.

It was. And when I was liberated and I was in a hospital and I was put in a cast and I could hardly breathe. But when I got up in the morning, I didn't say what. I said, what for? I had nothing to get up for. And this is that existential vacuum that also Viktor Frankl mentions when you have no meaning in your life. I had no purpose in my life. My parents were not coming home. Reality hit me and I was very suicidal after I was liberated. And I know when God told me, if you're going to die, you're not going to be able to experience the life that is ahead of you. And so you got to be for something. And that's when I began to really commit myself to be forward life and for survival and for becoming a doctor now and being a member of. Of the healing arts profession.

Yeah.

I can't even imagine what it would have been like to try to put yourself back together and find meaning and find purpose. Especially at 17 years old. I think you were at that time.

17, 18, 17 when I was liberated, 16 when I entered Auschwitz. Yes.

How do you start to approach finding meaning, finding purpose, when all purpose has been lost, almost all family has been lost and taken from you.

Yeah, it's not about lost and found. It's really discovery, discovery. Discovering something that no one can take away from you. And that is a discovery. And I hope that people are listening and they can also find a time out to discover that even though many, many things didn't happen that way and they could have killed themselves because it's easier to die than to live. And yet you didn't. So I hope you can congratulate yourself and because we go through the valley of the shadow of death, but we don't camp there, we don't set up household there. I'm not a victim. I was victimized. It's not my identity, it's what was done to me. A big difference. Because when a woman comes to me who was sexually abused, I also became a diplomat in sexology many, many years ago. But if they tell me, I don't know what to tell you, Edie, because I was sexually abused. But you were in Auschwitz. And my answer is you were more in prison than I was. Because I knew the enemy.

What was the enemy?

If you were touched inappropriately by a father or an uncle or somebody in the family and you keep that secret. The opposite of depression is expression. So what comes out of your body doesn't make you ill. What stays in, that does. That's why when people tell me many years, write a book, write a book. And I would say, I have nothing to say, I have nothing to say. So I encourage people. You have a lot to say, write a book, you're gonna feel much better. Because my book is now at the table of my great grandsons. And I have seven of those.

Wow.

Isn't that wonderful?

That's inspiring. Yeah, it's amazing.

Never give up. Never ever give up.

I love that you're an inspiration. And you. You know, I. I experienced sexual abuse when I was 5 years old by a man that I didn't know was a son of a babysitter that I went to. And it took me 25 years until I started to express. And for 25 years, I suppressed and depressed the emotions of that trauma and that story in my mind. And I was so ashamed that if anyone knew this about me, no one would love me or accept me as a human being. It was a story I continue to tell myself.

I love you for sharing that, because shame is awful.

Yeah.

Everything has to do with addiction, has to go back to shame and really look at that shame that you end up, unfortunately even blaming you for something you never did. And unfortunately, I see that many perpetrators were also abused themselves. So we got to really look at everything from generation to generation to the mother son relationship. See, I hold you beautifully as a mother, but your father has a different relationship with you. Because when you're a little boy, you look at your father and you make a decision that you want to be just like him or you want to be everything he's not. So when you grow up, you may become this wonderful person in your profession and you give up the need for your father's approval. But when you say, I'm never going to be like my father, then you want to prove something. And if you want to prove something, you're still a prisoner.

Oh, man, that rings true to me. Because for most of my life, I was trying to prove people wrong. I was trying to prove the kids who picked on me wrong, the person who sexually abused me. And it was never fulfilling. I would prove them wrong by achieving or accomplishing, and then I would feel unfulfilled and angrier after the fact.

You win the battle and you lose the war.

That's how I felt for so many years until seven years ago. I started to express and open up and start the healing journey.

Thank you.

It's like everything started to shift where I was. Like, I no longer want to prove people wrong, but I want to lift others up and help others heal. And I'm curious. It took me 25 years from my traumatic experience until I was able to face it and address it internally and start talking about it openly to heal. How long did it take for you to start facing the trauma? That was inside of you from this experience. And what was that process like when you started?

One thing I say that I never forget what happened. It's my cherished wound. But I don't overcome it. I come to terms with it. There is a difference. So when you say I overcame, I'm going to tell you that you just don't allow it to control your life anymore. So you have your cherished wound and I have mine in our hearts.

Yeah.

But don't try to overcome. Just make a decision that you're not going to give another inch. And what you do give up is revenge. Because forgiveness is not you forgiving him for what he did to you. You're forgiving yourself. And you give yourself a gift not to carry that anymore. That perpetrator, that you let him go. Letting go is really the definition of love in my vocabulary. The definition of love to me is the ability to let go, to release. But don't run from it. Don't fight it, face it. And when the feelings come up, invite it in. It's okay to. There is no forgiveness without rage. You got to feel that rage. Don't be afraid to rage. Don't have a drink to calm down. No. Scream it out. The opposite of depression is expression.

Yeah.

And you're not revolving. You're evolving. You know, just like a butterfly. We go through the metamorphosis and then we shed the chrysalis so we can fly freely. Yeah, like a butterfly. I love butterflies. I am full of butterflies. All over my house.

I love that.

How long did it take for you to start to truly face it and embrace that trauma? Was it quickly after? Was it years or decades?

Not until I worked with two paraplegics, both Vietnam veterans. And one of them was in a fetal position, seeking revenge and angry and cursing country and God. And the other one said to me, you know, Doc, I am sitting in a wheelchair, and I'm so grateful that my God gave me a second chance in life. I can see my children's eyes much closer, and the flowers I can reach much easier. And I am wearing a white coat, and it says, Dr. Eager, Department of Psychiatry. And I feel like a biggest imposter because I kept my secret for at least 20 years. Never told anyone I was in Auschwitz.

Really?

You didn't tell anyone?

No, because I wanted to be you. I wanted to be a Yankee Doodle Dandy. I wanted to speak English without an accent. I spent three years at the university trying to get rid of my accent. Look how far I have gotten. And Then I decided to go back to Auschwitz because I realized I could not get them further than I have gone myself.

What year did you go back to Auschwitz?

Sometimes in the 70s.

So 30 years after you were there? Yes, roughly 25, 30 years.

You know, I graduated with honors cum laude and I never showed up for my graduation because I didn't forgive myself that I survived.

Wow.

See, I didn't need a Hitler. I had one in me.

You didn't go to graduation because you.

Didn'T, you didn't have survivors guilt that I survived and they didn't.

And why should you be celebrating?

Exactly, exactly. So I think that we are our own biggest enemy. And the biggest concentration camp is in our own mind. And the key is in your pocket.

You know, it's interesting, Edie. My brother went to prison when I was eight years old for four and a half years. He sold drugs to an undercover cop and went to prisons back in the 1990s when the war on drugs was a big thing. And growing up in a small town in Ohio, I didn't know anyone else who had went to prison as an eight year old. And so it was a traumatic experience for myself, our entire family that this happened to one of our family members. And I remember going to the prison almost every weekend to visit him. There was visiting hours and we could go and see.

Good for you since then. So I've been see you the healer. You show up.

I try to do my best.

You show up.

Yeah. I have been to a prison here in near Los Angeles a few times as well to work with inmates to help them take off the masks that hold them back, the emotional masks.

You change dead lives.

I do. I'm doing my part the best. And I, when I was there, I realized that some of these men who are have a life sentence in prison, who are not going to get out, have found, have found peace and healing within. And they are in a prison for life. But they have found a way to, to create peace in their mind and not be in a prison. And yet there are some of us in the outside world who have certain freedoms physically, but mentally we're in a concentration camp or a prison like you mentioned. Why do you think we put ourselves in a mental prison?

I think some of us do not think that we deserve so when it's good, it's bad. They don't even know how to really enjoy something. They. I call these people yes, but. Yes, but, yes, but. And I say give me the but. I give you an and yes, and you know, I Clean up people's English. That. Yes. And furthermore, you know, and it's not why me? But what now I can only touch you now.

What advice would you give to someone who is experiencing some type of traumatic event? No matter. And not to compare trauma, but when someone goes through a breakup or a loss of expectations, which might be traumatic, or a near death or a death in the family or any type of event, abuse, emotionally, sexually, physically, what advice would you have for them from the moment they have that trauma, on what they should be doing next? What steps?

I think the work that I do has to do with three grieving, feeling, and healing. You cannot heal what you don't feel. Don't medicate grief ever. It's not clinical depression. You know, when I teach at a medical school, that's the first thing I say. Please don't medicate grief. It's a natural reaction to a loss.

Yeah.

Grieving, feeling, healing and healing and healing.

And it's a lifelong process. And grieving has to do with acknowledging that you expected one thing and you got another, and you were told one thing and then it didn't happen.

Yeah.

And it didn't happen.

How do we learn to grieve better so that we don't shame ourselves for grieving or shame ourselves for not being more positive when something traumatic happens? What's the. What's a good process that we.

Oh, just cry. Crying is healing. Because what comes out of your body doesn't make you ill. What stays in there does. So what we do with anger, we either vent it, suppress it. I like you to dissolve it. Anger is not a dirty word. It's okay. It's okay. It's how long you're gonna hold on to it. But don't deny it. Don't run from it.

How do we express anger in a relationship from a lost expectation in a healthier way where it's more dissolved? As opposed to, you did this and you did this, and you were wrong. And because some people might interpret that and say, well, I'm just expressing my anger like Dr. Edie told me to. But how do we communicate anger where we don't suppress it, but we get it out in a loving, healthier way?

When in English language, someone says, you, you're gonna be dumped on, just remember, you're gonna be dumped on. Now you think of me, I'm on your shoulder, and say to yourself, the longer they talk, the more relaxed I become. You take the negative stimuli immediately turned it into positive. I am practicing my low frustration tolerance level.

Okay.

I'M not a shrink. I'm a stretch. You know, you stretch your comfort zone. That's what I learned in Auschwitz, to stretch the comfort zone. Only children blame. While you blame, you're still a child.

Wow.

I don't care how old you are, you can be 20, 40 or 80. You did this to me. You made me angry. Try to make me angry and I'm gonna tell you, I'm very selective. Who's gonna ever get my anger?

Do you feel anger today? And how do you personally express it? If someone says they're going to do something, but they let you down. If you don't see something in the world that's happening that's unjust, you know, how do you express this where it's not that thing having power over you, but you expressing your feelings, what you.

Can really do with another person. You let them know what their behavior, what effect their behavior has on you and how you feel and what would you like. Instead you go to solution, not defensiveness. Then you learn to negotiate and compromise. If you're not willing to negotiate and compromise, don't get married.

That's good advice.

Yeah. Because there is no such thing as truth. There is my truth and your truth.

And all relationship is going to have compromise and negotiation.

I think that we can really have a relationship that is based on commonalities. Look at Romeo and Juliet. We married people we don't know. Most marriages are based on faulty expectations. There is a gap between expectation and reality. And then you have to look at expectation whether you are realistic or unrealistic. You cannot give me what you don't have. See, sometimes we women think that he's going to be giving me everything and anything at any time. And there is no such one person. We limit it. I can give you in my limited capacity. And that's why it's good to ask for what you want and let the other person know what's in it for them. And you make a deal. If you do this, give you that, if you wash the dishes, we'll have more time together. You know, make it so that the other person really would like to give of themselves rather than waiting for someone else to make you happy. Nobody will make you happy. You make yourself happy. Because self love is self care is not narcissistic. Narcissistic people don't like themselves. Do you love yourself? I want you to get up in the morning and look in the mirror and say, Louise, I love you. I honor you. There never be another you. That's exciting to me very Exciting that you're one of a kind diamond in a rough.

Yes.

Yeah.

You have a lot to look forward to. You were victimized, remember? It's not who you are. And I'm so sorry. And yet I'm so grateful that I'm talking to a brilliant interviewer who is sharing himself with me. That's really a gift to me.

I appreciate that.

I'm going to really cherish this interview because you are your. You. You put yourself into it and that's what it's all about.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

And I want to follow up to the conversation we're having about happiness just now. When we expect someone else to bring bring us happiness in a relationship, what does that do to us? And how do we learn to love ourselves and find happiness whether the other person brings us joy or not? In your opinion?

Beautiful.

Dependency breeds depression. If I wait for you to make me happy, I'm never gonna be happy. And what is happy? Who is happy now with all this turmoil and when children are being taken away from the parents, when we have all these millions of people who are unfortunately falling into that terrible COVID 19. You know, I mean, what is. It's such a general word. I don't really know how I want to use that word. Am I happy? Well, I'm cheerful. I do the best I can, but I don't know this word. Happy is me. Very general.

You mentioned about Auschwitz as the best classroom for you.

For me, yes. As the best classroom, my best education. You know, there is an EQ and an iq. Thank God I have both because I did graduate with cum laude. But the work I do has to do from one survivor to another. And together we're going to be stronger. So I hold your precious hand and we're going to revisit the places where you've been and you're going to tell it to me as if it would happen now. See, when I would work with you, I would ask you to be 5 years old so you can really feel that feeling that you're powerless. And you don't even think that there is something wrong with it either. Because anybody who touches you and it feels good, you know, we'll build that way. But it's very important not to suppress and keep that secret. Secrets are really unfortunately running in families and that's not good at all. Yeah, I hope this is a time out when people can share and get it out. What comes out to your body will never make you ill. What stays in there does. Yeah, maybe you can run groups for men. Yeah, maybe you can do that and you can meet and recognize just how much you have in common. The man's brain is very different from our, you know, the hemisphere, the left and right hemisphere is different in a male than a female. That's why men want to understand everything. I want to feel something and I come to the feelings.

How do you.

I don't ask, how can I help you ever. I say, how can I be useful to you? Because I'm not doing it for you, I'm doing it with you.

So should I stop asking, how can I support you and say, how can I be?

How can I be useful to you and how can I help you? It's like Humpty Dumpty. I'm gonna put you back together again. There is no such thing. I'm not Humpty Dumpty. And I cannot do anything with you unless you're willing. That's a very good word. Willing to be willing to revisit the places where you been. But I'm there with you now. You're not there. You're here with me. You're safe with me. I provide the atmosphere. I had a 14 year old young boy who was a member of David Koresh in Texas. So he came to me and said, I'm a boot boy, you know, I know nothing about boots. But I looked at his boots and I acknowledged it. And then he got up and he put his elbow on my desk and said, hey doc, it's time for America to be white again. I'm gonna kill all the Jews.

Wow.

Using the N word, all the mescans and all the chinkos. See, if I would have reacted, I would have dragged that boy into the corner. I would have stepped on him and tell him, how dare you talk to me like that? Because I saw my mother going to the gas chamber. But you know, I spoke to God in Auschwitz. My spirit, my Tinkerbell, my spirit. Because people don't come to me, they're sent to me. And the most obnoxious person is your best teacher. So I asked God, what is the meaning of this? And God told me, find the bigot in you. And I said, it's impossible. I came to America penniless. I worked in a factory. In 1949, they gave me seven cents a dozen to cut off boxer shirts. I became the breadwinner because my husband ended up in a hospital. But when I went to the bathroom, one of them said, colored. And I didn't realize that in America we have prejudice. Prejudice means to prejudge and so I tell God it's impossible. You see, I'm not a prejudice because I came to America and I joined the NAACP and I marched with Martin Luther King. It didn't do any good to me. God said find the bigot in you. And not until I created the environment for that 14 year old young boy who lost all his freedom to this David Koresh joining the white supremacy neo Nazi group. And I said tell me more. And he never knew because I created a loving environment of the mother he never had. And so this is it, you know, creating the environment for anyone that you are with that they can truly trust you and put even their lives in your hand. But it was very difficult in Auschwitz to put your life into the Nazis hand. So you know, you have to be selective and think you can now create the young people in America to be, for something, to be, for uniting to be good role models. And I think you're a wonderful role model.

Thank you.

So I hope that this is your calling. This is not my job. Because if you have a job, you want to make the most amount of money with the least amount of work. Right? But your calling. I never look at the clock. I don't do this 45 minute hour. I don't really do that. And I don't see one person after another. I give as much time, time, time. That's what love is. T, I, M, E. It's a four letter wonderful word. But you need time with you see what your head is telling you. Your body talks to you all the time and the body never lies. Yeah, I guarantee you.

What was your body telling you in Auschwitz? Did you feel like you had any hope at all? Was all hope gone?

Turn hatred into pity.

How did you have that wisdom at 16?

I think, I think I had a loving God. I called Tinkerbell the free spirit that, that I still had a choice.

Do you think that's what kept you alive during that time? Was having.

That kept me totally alive? Because they took my blood a lot. And I asked one time, why are you taking my blood? And he spoke to me in German that I'm taking your blood to aid the German soldiers so we can win the war and take over the world. Watch that. Especially America. I didn't yank my arm away. Of course I wouldn't be here telling you. But I said to myself, you stupid idiot, I was a coming ballerina. With my love, with my blood, you're never going to win the war. So I had my humor within me, not sarcasm or cynicism, but Kind of philosophical humor that I still had my spirit telling myself that I know better. My blood is not gonna ever help you to win the war. So you see, again, the choice, the choice.

What are some of the greatest lessons you learned during that year? Some of the mental practices you discovered yourself or maybe that you witnessed from a friend or someone who was in there with you?

With me was a lovely girl from Yugoslavia. And we were both very proud nationalists. I was a very proud Hungarian and she was a very proud member of Yugoslavia. And she told me that we going to be liberated by Christmas. And Christmas came and we were not liberated. She died the next day. Don't set yourself up to something that has to happen. Have as many choices as possible. That taught me tremendous amount. How not to think black and white, all or nothing. Look at all the options. The more choices you have, the less you feel like a victim. It's a very good question you ask. Very good question.

Thank you. Thank you.

You're a great interviewer.

Thank you. How do you create multiple choices when all of your choices are taken away?

In theory, in Europe, we used to ask, is it good for the Jews? You know, but you can ask yourself, is this the best I can do? And chances are that's not the only thing that you can do. That there are other choices that you're willing to maybe settle for something different. Hopefully that you are realistic, but not idealistic.

Realistic, not idealistic.

Idealistic. Because when the idealists don't find what they're looking for, they become sarcastic. Cynical. Hungarians are cynical. Very sarcastic. Very cynical.

And in your book. The book is amazing. And I want everyone to get it. But you talk about 12 imprisoning beliefs. Yes, and I don't want to go into all 12, but can you share one or two that really stand out for you? And then I want to talk about a couple of tools that you use that I like.

Are you evolving or revolving? My daughter calls it Edism. And I had someone who went to a marathon and somehow in the middle she stopped and she thought she not gonna be able to make it. But then she ran to my office and said, Dr. Eager, I did it. I did it. I said what you told me to say. Yes, I am. Yes, I can. Yes, I will. So you're going to find that somewhere. The other thing I told you that there is no forgiveness without rage. You got to go through that rage and see whether you are ready to forgive. Because it's not up to me to forgive you. It's up to me to be actually Able to before myself and for myself needs to be free. That I give myself a gift. See, I don't have any godly power to forgive you or anyone else, but I do what's humanly possible and then hand it over. So that. That would be a good one. Forgiveness would be very, very important. The other is to how do you find hope in hopelessness? I think that's very important. Very, very, very important. And seeing, you know, don't cover garlic with chocolate, don't put paprika on whipped cream. You know, it's just. See how you can find balance between working, loving and playing.

You have a tool or an exercise where you create a chart. And I love your exercise on forgiveness where you ask the person to write two letters to someone who hurts you. Can you share what those two letters are?

Yeah. Well, the first letter is all the rage that you have.

Get it out. Get it out.

Yes. Yeah, you can. Because you're not gonna just get it out, scream it out, you sob and use whatever you can do. How could you do this to me? And just get it all out, okay? And because once it's out, you're gonna feel better. That's why the opposite of depression is expression. You're gonna feel better, you see, get the vomit out and then you write the love letter. Then you like what you are for rather than what you're against. And so that's why two letter is better than one letter. But the one letter is very essential to get rid of the poison that is in your mind.

So write an anger letter of the things that they did to hurt you or upset you or let you down. Let it. Get it all out. And then write a love letter where your finding things to appreciate about what you're learning from that experience.

And it's okay to be disappointed as long as you don't allow it to lead it to discouragement. And it's okay to be angry as long as it doesn't lead to resentment.

What happens when we hold on to resentment?

It's eating us up. It's not a sign of self love. It's self hate.

Wow. Self love does not include resentment.

No.

Wow, that's a powerful distinction.

It's okay to be angry, but how long you gonna hold on? It's up to you. Because you're hurting you. You have to be a good mommy to you. And good mommies don't criticize. Good mommies don't say yes, but you're very handsome. But you're fat, but you're pimply. No yes, but. Yes. And you're one of a kind, beautiful God's child. And you were planted here as a seed. If I don't water my flowers in my backyard in this heat, it's gonna die. What do you use for water? Did you have a good breakfast? Did you have your protein shake? Or did you have a doughnut with a Coke?

I've got a few final questions for you. I'm really inspired by this conversation, and I hope we can do this in person in the future. What was it like for you when you finally learned to forgive the Nazis and the people that killed your parents and your friends and your community? What was that like for you? The feeling of. Of forgiveness.

I have a feeling that the forgiveness with me at 16 started in Auschwitz. Just remember when we were evacuated and go from one place to another. And I was used carrying ammunition on the top of a train for the Nazis, so they wouldn't bomb. But they bombed anyway. So we went from one place to another. And we ended up in April, somewhere near Austria. And we were put in a German village. And we were told that if we dare to leave the premises, we were put into a kind of a community hall upstairs. If you dare to leave the premises, you're going to be shot right away. But my sister told me, if you don't get some food, I'm going to die. See, she was more hungry than I was. I was skinnier. But I was a gymnast, so I didn't care about that. I went outside and I saw some carrots in the next garden. I had no respect for other people's property. I was still a gymnast. And I jumped and I stole the carrots. Can you picture me do that? And I'm climbing the wall, and I meet the guard with a gun.

Wow. What happened?

I never held a gun in my life. And I heard the clicking three times. And I began to pray. Not for me. And somehow there was an eye contact. And he turned his gun around and pushed me inside. But I had the carrots. I give the carrots to Magda. The following morning, he comes and says, who dared to break the rules? And I'm thinking, who knows? He may kill all of us. I better go. And I'm crawling to him. I can't even walk. I'm crawling. And I said, it was me. German people are starving. He gives me a little loaf of bread. I wish I could find that man. He said, you must have been hungry to do what you did. There were good people. I met the diamond in that garbage place isn't that amazing?

It's unbelievable.

I'm telling you that if I could meet that man today, I mean, I cannot tell you. I don't know how old he was. And I don't know if he's still alive. But please, if ever anybody can hear that story, I want to see that man.

What would you say to him?

He would have killed me because he was told to kill. I would tell him that I want to thank him for my life. Because we never knew when any minute we were told every day in Auschwitz that the only way we'll get out of here is a corpse. So when people tell you anything, all you have to do is put an I in front of it. You this, you that. Just put an eye that. They talking about themselves.

What was the greatest lesson the Nazis taught you?

How to not allow anybody to poison my me. How not to allow anybody to brainwash. And how to question authority and never adhere blindly to authority.

Yes.

Taught me everything I practiced today has to do to be for life and for freedom. Freedom is my word. Freedom from the concentration camp that is in your own mind.

And what does freedom mean to you?

Freedom means to be my true self. To be God's precious, loving seed that was planted here for me to give to the world what can happen when good people do bad things.

So what I'm saying is that addiction is never a choice.

And it's not some kind of genetic disease.

That is total nonsense. What it actually is is an attempt.

To solve a problem in your life.

In your case, you were trying to.

Solve the problem of being trapped, which is based on your chakra trauma, which you.