How Josh Peck LOST 100+ POUNDS & Overcame ADDICTION For Success | Lewis Howes

That was my dream and I was sort of doing that. I had my own show with my name in it.

It's crazy.

It's crazy. Like who gets that? And yet here I was also knowing that I was introducing myself to the world in a body that I wasn't quite comfortable in.

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness. Really?

Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

You are a child acting phenom star and you're still acting and booking movies with all these famous people. But you also had some struggles as a kid as well, right? And you went through a weight loss journey in the middle of a show. Isn't that correct? Yes. You were filming a season for a TV show and you lost 100 pounds in one season. Is that correct? Or over a couple seasons?

Maybe season and a half. Season and a half. Two years.

Two years, 100 pounds.

How old were you at this time?

I was 17. 17. What made you realize that you wanted to lose the weight? And was that a big challenge during a two season process as a character to change that much?

Well, I think what made me realize I wanted to lose weight was girls. Girls helped.

Yes.

Isn't that every young boy's motivation is like, I wanna learn this musical instrument, I wanna do this, lose weight for the girl.

Oh, for sure.

That was my life as a kid.

It's like admonishing fathers and Party girls have probably been the driving force behind a lot of men's greatness throughout their lives, I would imagine.

Was it one specific girl or just the fact that-- It's the idea of.

Maybe being an actual teenager and going out on dates and going to parties. Because I was living sort of this dichotomy, whereas I was getting to do this incredibly cool job, one that I was so lucky to have. And I dreamed of being an actor doing this kind of comedy. At 16, it wasn't about being on SNL, it was about being on all that, which was like the kids version of SNL on Nickelodeon. And that was my dream and I was sort of doing that and I had my own show with my name in it.

It's crazy.

It's crazy. Like who gets that? And yet here I was also knowing that I was introducing myself to the world in a body that I wasn't quite comfortable in. And that people tend to marry themselves to the first image that they fall in love with. Steve Carell is one of our greatest actors, right? But for many, he'll always be Michael Scott from the Office. And that's great, because the Office is so beloved. But I knew that I had my work cut out for me. And I knew that I was holding myself back in certain ways. And that food and body had sort of been a menacing force to my family. And that if I just continued to wait, that I had sort of missed out on my teenage years, and I would miss out on my college years and more if I didn't get this thing under control.

What was the driving cause for you gaining the weight or using food as a soothing strategy?

Your guess is as good as mine. I would imagine food is delicious. There was probably some epigenetics there. I was inheriting some trans-generational trauma because I come from a family of bigger people. And so it was obviously a coping mechanism before I actually got to enter the world. for people who came before me. And then, you know, it was like my first foray into overindulging in something, which gave me sort of a numbing effect, which kind of turned my insecurities down and kept those voices at bay. The ones that woke up a few minutes before I did every morning that told me why I'd never be enough and why things weren't gonna work out.

Wow.

Yeah.

Why did you feel like you would never be enough?

I don't know.

I mean, you had your name in a TV show. You're getting, you know.

But this was far back. I mean, this is as far back as I have memories. of like seven years old feeling terminally unique when I probably should have only been worried about Power Rangers. Right, that's something. Yeah, I'm like contemplating the abyss. When I talk about how eventually as I got older and it sort of shifted after I lost weight into sort of drugs and alcohol, I was like, if you saw me at eight or nine years old, sort of painfully insecure, hyper worried about what you thought and what my place was in the world, you would have been like, get that kid a drink. I think he needs to cool out a little bit.

Really?

But I found that at the bottom of a gusher's box or fruit by the foot. Pretty much any fruit snack.

Exactly. Was there a big wound that was, you know, you were trying to numb out or was there something... Out of the ordinary?

I didn't know my dad. My dad wasn't in my life. I never met my pops. And so I imagine that maybe set the stage in some respect and then Also, you know, my mom is the greatest and as many single moms have to sort of contend with, she had to provide for us and I think there was a lot of financial insecurity growing up. And then, you know, at eight or nine years old, I was so lucky to have this talent and sort of like this proclivity for musical theater and singing and dancing and all these things, but at nine, There's not a lot of social currency to that. It's not dope.

Maybe it is today with like shows like Glee and other things that have kind of made it more mainstream I guess. But back then, we grew up in the 80s and 90s, it wasn't cool.

Nah, it's not.

If you can't hit a ball, you're not crushing it. I was in choir and I remember feeling like worried that people saw that I was in choir.

Really?

Yeah. Were you doing that in addition to new athletics?

Yeah, I was playing sports, but my dad insisted that I did the choir because he was an opera.

Wow.

He and my mom met singing opera at Ohio State in like opera class or whatever it was, yeah.

And was he too an athlete?

He wanted to be an athlete. He was a musician, he was a singer, played classical piano and sang incredible voice. But he also played sports in high school, but he was never good enough to I think play in college.

So your dad is me, and you're like what I do to my son, which is like stop it, we're gonna, you're going for the sports, right? And then like, but if he ever gets like super adapt, I'm gonna be.

Like, but learn the piano. Exactly. I wish. My dad sent me to one piano lesson, and I kicked and screamed, and I never went back.

I wish I would have learned a musical instrument then.

Oh yeah. Wish, man.

It's the ultimate thing. How many instruments do you play? I play piano. I mean, I'm not like, I can sound really good for five or ten minutes, and then you'll start to see sort of holes in my development as a musician. But yeah, I mean, you don't ever want to be the guy who's like, oh, there happens to be a guitar here.

Oh, right, right.

But it is, like, if you're around, like, a nice bonfire, man.

Powerful, man.

Oh, my gosh.

That skill can bring people together.

Like comedy, which I learned at an early age, but being a great musician, it's like a magic trick.

Magic.

And when you can do it, well, people just want to see it again.

Over and over, man. And it creates moments. It creates memories. It creates magic like you said. And I think when we can develop those skills, you know, for me and as an early teen, it was like I need to become great at sports because I didn't have any other skills. I wasn't good in school. I didn't have the musical talent yet. And sports was the way to get the girl. But yours was losing weight, it sounds like. You had the comedy and the acting. Was that attracting you what you wanted and kind of relationships or with attention from girls at that point?

Maybe, but I do remember one thing specifically. I don't know why this sticks out, but there was like this girl who was like totally adorable and we were 15 and she just was like, now in hindsight, I'm like she was giving you all the signs, Peck, you were blind. But I was so wrapped up in self and insecurity that I was just like, who's this nice girl who always texts me? Or like, Who's this nice girl who always offers me a ride home with her, you know, from her mom when, you know, we're done hanging out at the mall with our group of friends. And yeah, I was totally oblivious.

You didn't see the sign, yeah.

No.

Now, so you were, what, 15 to 17 when you did the show?

I was 14 to 19.

14 to 19 when you did the show with your name in it, which is crazy. On Nickelodeon, is that right? Yes. Yes. And on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the happiest, most secure human you could have been, like self-love, all those things out of 10. One being you hated yourself. Where were you on that scale when you had your own show with your own name on it? On, I guess, the biggest kids network that there was at the time. Where were you on that scale?

Oh, I mean, it depends on the day, right? like there were moments where I felt pretty content. I didn't love being so overweight, but otherwise my life was really full. And despite sort of the challenges and the things that I've gone through, I've had some very baseline human needs, very much taken care of. My mom always gave me a deep sense of love and decency and security. Even when we were super financially secure, there'd be moments where we would you know, we wouldn't know where we were sleeping that night. And yet, like I knew, I was like, well, Mom will figure it out. Like, 'cause she always does. So there were certainly like moments, snapshots throughout that time where if you asked me then, I'd be like, I'm not a one. Like, I feel utterly hopeless and uncomfortable in this moment. But it was, but I think you have to sort of like, if I'm looking at it now, from my 35-year-old mind, if I look at the factors at Bay, it was like, it was probably, it was, I don't want to say it was like shallow or artificial, it just was like, I don't know. I think you could look at a lot of teenagers and who have a very middle class, very traditional family structure that in any given moment, if you zoomed in on their life, they'd be like, yeah, the world's ending, duh.

Right.

Like, I got a crappy grade or she doesn't like me.

All teenagers, yeah.

My mom will let me they have these dope jeans. I don't know. I don't know what's going on now. But yeah, I think there were certainly moments, but overall, I don't think I was plagued by this and trauma. I lived a nice life. I just had these challenges.

Sure. What would you say you're at now from one to 10?

I mean, the goal for me in life is five. I try not to get too high or too low. You know what I'm saying?

Sure. I don't wanna-- 10, meaning not like you're too high, but more like you have inner peace. You love yourself fully. you accept yourself. Yeah. You're not shaming and like putting yourself down.

Oh, it depends on the day.

Interesting.

Where are you at right now? May I?

Of course, you can ask me anything. Man, I'm always, there's room for growth type of person. But I truly feel I'm at a 8.3 to 8.5 range pretty consistently, especially in the last year. But I've also, like I've talked about on my show here, I've been doing every other week, deep emotional accountability therapy work.

-Wow.

-With someone who supports me, navigating the emotions of life, the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions of life, and allowing me to go back in time and heal any wounds that are yet to be healed. And that has given me more inner peace consistently. It doesn't mean there's not moments where I'm frustrated when something doesn't go well or I might be triggered by something here or there, but pretty consistently it feels more of like a eight range where it used to be like a four or five up and down some days eight, some days four or five, but now it's more consistently in the higher range. I think it's because I'm willing to consistently do the emotional accountability work and things are just really good in my life right now. But I say that also with my dad passing two months ago.

Wow.

And I have deep sadness and grief, but I still felt like in the weight of everything happening, there's a lot of stuff that happened during that time, and COVID and all these other things, I feel like I'm able to keep my inner world at around an eight. And I think that's all we can control. As our friend Ryan Holiday says, where he talks about stoicism all day long, the Stoics talk about it's not what happens, it's how you respond. to what happens. And so it's in a constant emotional accountability of responding moment by moment, which makes me feel like I'm more in the eight range, which means I still have room to prove and grow and doesn't mean tomorrow to get me off track potentially, but it's the consistency which has supported me.

So, yeah, my buddy always says like, your life should be like the stock market and that if on any given day it could have fallen a thousand points or it could be skyrocketing. But if you look at it trending over time, it trends up. And I would certainly say that that's been my life for the last 15 years.

That's great.

And isn't it interesting too, to your point about your reaction to things, how like so, and I think Ryan Holiday talks about this as well, is how little of a reaction is necessary for most things.

Another friend of mine talks about everything in life is a neutral event.

Yeah.

Things are happening. It's neutral. It's how we interpret the event is based on whether we give it a lot of value or weight or stress or pleasure. You know, it's our interpretation of the moment. I'm curious, when you had this, you know, big success kind of into fame in your team years with this show, how did you manage your mindset with the early success where we see and the news, kind of the younger actors who are rising to fame kind of had these breaking moments throughout history is what it seems like. How did you manage your mindset when all this success, money and awareness about who you were came to light?

Well, I think especially as it applies to sort of Drake and Josh, which was sort of the impetus of that, I the silver lining to be overweight was that I never got to impress with myself. So it was like constantly reminding me that, yes, you get to do this very interesting, unique job. And yes, people are giving you a lot of compliments, and you're. You're getting so much more sort of prestige and reinforcement than one human should ever have. And yet, because I was constantly sort of being ego deflated by how I.

Wasn'T enough, looking in the mirror and seeing something you weren't. happy with at the time.

Totally. So it was like, I never got too impressed with myself, luckily.

Huh, that's good.

In addition to, like, look, for every Zendaya or even Shia LaBeouf, there are thousands of kids who perpetuate that sort of, I don't even want to call it a stereotype because it's very true in many ways, right? We see these child actors who sort of have this crest and this apex moment, And then inevitably, for many of them, they crash and burn. And so I knew that informed the collective opinion. And I didn't want that to be me.

You were aware of this at that time, when you were a teenager?

Yeah, I was certainly aware of the stereotype, especially coming off of a kid show, right? This is pre-social media. So you weren't on, if you're a kid on Stranger Things and it premieres Friday night, by Monday morning you have 20 million followers on Instagram. Crazy, overnight. overnight. And now, whether the show is, you know, goes 10 seasons or not, you have these followers you can bring with you to your next project, or you can sell them something, or they're behind you. But you didn't have that in 2006.

Right.

So the moment the show was over, not only were you also facing a lot of, like, sort of preconceived notions of who kid stars were, but you didn't have that sort of value property that would sort of travel with you.

Interesting, so how did you navigate that? Where did your value, was it based on landing the next gig then I guess?

Totally, and you know in kids TV like there's no residuals and I talk about it in the book and I only talk about it to sort of create what is I think a misperception you could say about kids shows during that time which was like We were making over five years about, you know, 100,000 bucks a year. Like all said and done. Now, that's like a really great middle class lifestyle, and I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that you're certainly not set for life. You wouldn't expect that of anyone that they could just quit tomorrow if they made 100 grand a year and not have to work for the next 50. But I think because of that sort of, you know, collective misnomer, There was this idea that if you were 19 and you did a show like that, and then maybe you went on to do something else, or maybe you just did something to pay your rent, that you were failing. People would think, would you blow all the money? Would you make a mistake? Why are you doing this? You're set. But I knew that it was time to get to work, because I had this mom who supported me, and I knew in my heart I wanted to be able to take care of the family. and I also knew that the thing that at eight years old that saved me from myself, from my thoughts, from my circumstance was TV. It was the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and Ace Ventura and Billy Madison and these characters that were my friends. I talk about how I kept the TV on at night so that the room would never get dark. It was my teacher, my babysitter. Becoming an actor feels like someone going to work for the hospital that cured their cancer. You know, like I feel indebted to the business. It's a thing that I've loved. Before I was worried about paying my bills or what you thought of me. I just did it for fun. And so it's a thing that's driven me my whole life. And I know how lucky I am to have that now because not everyone is that clear about it.

So when did you understand the power of social media. And since you didn't have it with these kind of earlier shows that you're on, when did you start to realize, like, oh, having a show or being in a movie is helping me build this following now. And there's this other element to the industry, which is social media.

Yeah. I mean, it was 2013, and I, you know, I was lucky to sort of I mean, we've been alive during the renaissance of social, or it's not a renaissance, it's a creation of social media, right? And how many different sort of advertising avenues have there been over the last 500 years? Like it was print, and then radio, and TV, and TV movies. Billboards and then, yeah. Yeah, and now it's, you know, it's the internet and social media, but that's like six over 500 years. And we're alive during the beginning of it. And so I was 24, 25, and there was this app called Vine, which RIP, miss it, it's best.

Yeah.

9 million followers, gone.

Oh man, that's tough. Who cares about 9 million followers?

Come on, guys.

It doesn't matter.

You know, you know.

9 million followers, yeah.

School of Greatness.

So 9 million followers, so you were like an OG on Vine, you and Logan Paul and a few of those people.

Yeah, but I benefited from that it had just started, right? So the algorithm was sort of, it was in the fashion in which it was at that time, which was like it really rewarded you for consistency. Of course. And my friend who works at Instagram always tells me like, we only win if you create. We don't win if a post does poorly for you. We don't want you to do badly. Like our social media, the entire industry works if you keep giving us stuff to post. And so I'm a big fan of Vine and my wife who was my girlfriend at the time goes, why don't you make a video? Just try it. And make one and then make a couple more and suddenly I have a couple thousand followers. Then over the next few months I have a couple hundred thousand. And I remember I was at this inflection point where I knew that I could really lean into this thing or I could let off the gas and people would forget that I ever did it. And I got a call from my agent and manager at that time. And they were sort of like, what are you doing?

Like in a good sense, this is cool or why are you doing this thing? This is like hurting you in the industry.

Sure, I mean, I think they were worried about the optics because remember this is 2013, so the Rock doesn't have 300 million followers and Kevin Hart and Jack Black and all these A-list people, they're not on social yet. And I remember specifically them saying, We're trying to make you not just the goofy guy from Drake and Josh. We want to make you a leading man. Do you think this hurts us? You making silly videos on your phone?

Six second video clips, yeah. Yeah.

And luckily I had a real apostle at that time, my buddy Rami, who worked in social media early on. And he said to me, let me tell you something. Don't let anyone tell you they know what this is. Because even I don't know, and I work in it. He's like, but being able to go directly to your followers, having hundreds of thousands of people who are telling you what they like, what they don't like, and everything in between, that's powerful.

Powerful.

So do this. Do it every day. And up until this point, I had always been at the mercy of the gatekeepers. You know, five people had to sign off for me to get a job. A casting director, a producer, an executive, a director, all these people. and this was the first time in my life that I didn't have to ask permission. And I think that was why I was so sort of enchanted by this idea of like going directly. Like I felt empowered. Like finally I don't have to ask anyone's permission. And then inevitably a year later when branded posts started happening and these Fortune 500 companies start sort of flocking to social media, I was like oh this is a whole different level of security that I can accrue from just doing this thing that I've always done. I just can't have an ego about the way in which I do it.

Wow, it's powerful. So was there a moment, so did you build the following from just being consistent on the platforms or did you start to notice, oh, I'm getting a big influx when I'm doing a show or movie or something's happening? in the industry as well?

I found that the greatest thing was collaboration. And so Vine had sort of taught me early on. I mean, and these were kids who, you know, these weren't people who were coming out of the industry. They were, you know, college graduates. They were kids from their hometown, not from coastal cities, from, you know, from Toronto and from, you know, Logan Paul's from Ohio. Like, shout out Ohio. Absolutely. You know, like, I mean, you know, Mr. Beast is from North Carolina. They didn't have to be in a coastal city. They didn't need a manager or an agent. They didn't need any nepotism, but they all moved out here because they had found their own followings. And I leaned in and I didn't have an ego about like, well, I've done some stuff, you know, or I had a show with my name in it because I was like, for what? Like, these kids are making something that really is connecting with an audience. And I remember we would all get together. A lot of the guys on Vine moved to this building.

Yes.

1600 Vine.

Yes.

And we would sit there.

So you lived in there?

I didn't live there, but I... You'd.

Go there and collaborate?

I would collaborate and I just enjoyed creating. And you know I know a lot of people who got into the business where it's revealed over time that they like liked acting, but they really were in it for the billboard.

Right. For the fame, for the accomplishments, the notoriety.

Yeah, the red carpet, you know, but like I'm a drama geek.

Sure.

And so this idea of we got to all sit around and come up with an idea and then we pitch jokes, we top each other, we'd shoot it, and then we'd go on to the next person's video felt better than sitting in my apartment questioning my value on this earth and wondering why my agent hasn't sent me an audition in two weeks.

Sure.

And that's why I really leaned in. It just felt warm. It felt like a warm place.

Because it seems like there's like you mentioned the Stranger Things crew. It's like they were nobodies and then that next week they all had like 6 million followers, right?

Sure.

Without creating content on social.

Sure.

So some people that build followings because they have a project that is known to the world and then they draw that project, those followings over to their social. But you were known to the world but you said, I'm just going to create this and build it from the platform.

Yeah, you make a great point. I think certainly if you can, you know, there are a few things a year like a stranger things that really triggers the zeitgeist. And I think also, you know, kids at that age are on social media, so it's not far-fetched why they would get this huge following out of nowhere. Or if you have like great abs, you, you, you, I don't.

Right, yeah. I don't actually don't have abs. I don't think I've ever had abs.

Really?

Yeah, they're semi there, you know, but I've never been like shredded.

Come on. You need one good stomach flu.

You know what I mean? You can't just give it a 15 pounds and get away with it.

Yeah, it's gonna be washed for it. But I, you know, so certainly there are those hacks or like just people that are very much sort of in the zeitgeist.

They're in the cultural.

Yeah, pop culture. But for me, I was sort of more creator focused. I was like, I And I was lucky because I came from a super, you know, broad comedic background that in some ways hurt me when I would try to go do more legitimate things or things that weren't that sticky and big. But in creating a six-second video, it was sort of the perfect formula. So I felt like I had had good training to be effective in that format.

Sure.

Yeah.

You mentioned also about how, you know, food was something that I would say you were, I guess, addicted to or indulged in and had an unhealthy relationship with, let's say, for a period of time, but then you lost the weight and then you also talked about different drugs, alcohol, isn't that right? That you lean into some of the other substances, let's say, non-food substances. Where do you feel like you're at now with food substances, alcohol, and everything else? And how did you learn to get to a healthier place? with all substances?

Well, I'm 14 years sober, luckily, and it works really well for a guy like me, sort of abstinence from drugs and alcohol or anything like that. I do drink caffeine. But I think the food thing is very interesting. I feel really lucky in that I've seen my mom, I've sort of had a front row seat to people really struggle with, if your thing is food or sex or things that in theory, I mean food certainly, but sex as well, that is part of the human existence that you need. I imagine that is such a challenging thing to face because you're dosing out a little bit of this thing that can be pretty haunting in the wrong dosages. But for me, so I was able to sort of like completely abstain from those major things. And then the food thing is the thing that I'm just thoughtful about. It's reassuring to know that I don't know if anyone isn't thinking about food. I think there's a very small percentage, but especially the people that are in incredible shape, I think they're probably thinking about it more than anyone wants to.

Discussing about it. Yeah.

Everyone is. Everyone's worried about it. And so I just, I rarely wake up in the morning in the mood for a salad, but I've had enough data to support that if I eat that salad, I'll feel better than a lot of other things. And then sometimes I black out and eat like a bunch of White Castle hamburgers.

Oh man, those are good.

Wake up, I mean, you're familiar with that.

Ohio man, White Castle.

Wendy's and White Castle. It's a good life. Sometimes you gotta do that. I do it constantly. But I also, you know, I fell in love with working out and being active and just like the endorphins that come from you know, getting those sort of good chemicals going.

Absolutely.

So I'm able to sort of even it out, but, you know, you might find me at the wrong time.

You know, at six White Castle hamburgers, Baskin Robbins. Oh man.

Like, Josh, good to see you. I'm like, I'll act like we never met.

Right. I'm just eating my ice cream. Yes.

Let me have this moment.

How was, what is the biggest misconception about fame, you feel like? people have. And what is the difference between TV slash movie fame and social media fame?

I think the difference between social media and, and traditional TV and movie fame, the difference is becoming more and more slight. Like, and I think by the time my son is a teenager, he's three now, I don't know if there will be a separation because inevitably, i'm not sure that the people that he watches on my ipad are any different than if we go watch, you know, a movie in the theater.

He might think Mr. Beast is more famous than, you know, Jim Carrey or something, you know, based on. Yeah, he, you know, he's probably going to be watching an iPad or an iPhone more than a big screen. Totally. Where we grew up, it was like going to the big screen was a big deal.

It was such an event.

And they were big stars, but now you see you know, Mr. Beast or, I don't know, a Dhar Mann video with these, you know, younger actors in his videos, you might think they are, you're more connected to what you're seeing consistently, right?

Totally. And I think, too, like, the way we saw with TV shows, you know, when you let someone into your home and you watch something with your family, like, it's a very special relationship. And I think now with social media having access to these people that you.

Love, Yeah, not style.

Yeah, you're invested in their life and I think you're so much more inclined to buy their thing because you're like, I want to support them or I know I have a shorthand with them and they wouldn't lead me astray. I mean, you have to be careful, right? The things that you do sell them have to be of value because you'll lose that quickly if you steer your audience wrong. But yeah, I think that's very true.

How have you managed it yourself? like the idea of fame over the last, I guess, 15-20 years?

I'm not... Listen, this is when I really like fame. Really like it. I do these college gigs where I go and I'll go speak at some college and recently I was at Bryant University in Rhode Island and listen, I'm not gonna hide it. I stay at a Marriott Courtyard. Nice.

Yeah. Yeah.

In a lot of these places, I'll want to maximize time with my son, so I'll take the red eye in. You get in, you do so much speaking stuff, you get in at 8 a.m., 9 a.m., and you're like, what am I gonna do? I'm tired and you want to go crash at the hotel. Check-in's not till 2. So I go to the Marriott Courtyard, and if I see the, and it's like 10 a.m., maybe 11 now, and.

I get that free breakfast over there, the Continental, man.

Are you kidding me? Make your own waffle?

Absolutely.

Where else are you gonna do that? But if I see that the person behind the desk recognizes me, I go, I'm checking in early. That's about it.

There you go.

No, I mean, yeah, I don't know, I don't implicitly think about it a lot, except in where can I be useful? You know, writing this book, right? Like, I wanted it to be a self-help book, hiding as a memoir. And I realized that I love a good self-help book, And by that I mean I don't read them, but I put them on my bookshelf.

Of course, yeah, you buy them.

I want you to think I read them. And sometimes I feel like self-help books or even memoirs can be written by people who feel like they're at the finish line, and the people who have summited the peak, and so it can be hard to relate. But for me, I was like, wow, a lot of people grew up watching my show. And if I was saying to them, that time when you were watching me, where maybe you were assuming everything was perfect, I was actually going through this.

Wow.

That's special. So to me, it's like, okay, if I have this specific thing that's unique to me, how can I sort of help people in a way and use that to their benefit, ideally, while enjoying the spoils of getting to check in at the Marriott Courtyard?

Exactly. Why are happy people annoying to you?

Well, I think I made a snap judgment for a lot of my life thinking that happy was this thing that was inherited by attractive people, the generationally wealthy, arena football.

Yeah, I was making 250 bucks a week playing arena football. Watch out, watch out. Yo.

How much smaller is the field than arena football?

It's 50 yards and about 25 wide.

But the athleticism is insane.

And it also-- It's freaks.

It's violent.

Extremely violent. I mean, you're playing on like concrete essentially with a little slab of carpet. You're getting hit by either a wall or the concrete every play or another human being within no space to run around.

So they're just smashing into you. So I played a quarterback in this movie Red Dawn, remake of Red Dawn.

Okay?

It's one I'm pretty proud of. Yes.

I'm not.

And no, I could have been better. I'm sorry. It's a good movie. I wish I was better. And I'm playing, you know, I'm 21 and I'm playing this this quarterback, so I go to football camp for two weeks. And with a lot of former arena football guys or current arena football players, some college athletes, and they were so lovely. And I remember we're gonna show some plays to the producers, right? Like, this is what we've set up for a couple of the different takes in the movie. And I line up behind my center, a guy named Reggie, who I'd been with for a week and a half. He was about 300 plus pound black guy, the best.

Like a real center in life, yeah.

Yeah, total center. And I yell, hot, and then I realized that I'm now behind a 220 pound white guy named Mike. I lined up behind the wrong guy.

Wow.

On the first play in front of the director, in front of the producers.

No way.

And I just was like, I've I give up.

I give up with this role. I'll never be enough.

And your brother-in-law's a quarterback, right?

Yeah, my brother-in-law played for Fresno State.

And my father-in-law played for the Jets. You didn't know them then? No, thank God.

That would have been good to get the training though.

I think they've seen the movie. They don't bring it up at Thanksgiving.

Thank God. That's good. Something you mentioned beforehand, which I thought was really inspiring, is that you've had this career as an actor very consistently since you were in your teens, you've built, I don't know, 30 plus million followers on social media, you speak, you've got the book now. But I heard you say before, which I think is really inspiring, is that your next chapter, you wanted to be about impacting people and service. That's what I heard you say before we jumped on the camera. Why is that something that excites you at this stage of your life? You know, being of service in a bigger way?

I just think I sort of know I guess I've heard it said before, like there's no true altruism because when you're doing something for someone else, did you say that? You came up with that? No, I was just pointing back to.

Yourself as it always makes you feel better. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I was pointing at me saying, makes you feel better. Yeah. I'll give you credit for it. No, no, no, no.

But yeah, there's no true altruism just because it's this idea of like you're instantly repaid the moment you do it, especially if you don't get caught doing trying it. You try to do good things for other people and don't get caught doing it, I've heard. So yeah, whether I believe it really deeply in my soul, which I believe I do, but I also know it's kind of like the only free high in life. And it's the only way for me to pay back how utterly overpaid I am in my life.

And.

Again, throughout my life, even when we talk today, when people say, what are your next goals or what's the rest of the year looking like or the next five years? It's like, you know, when I interviewed Neil Brennan for my podcast, Male Models, I interviewed him and he's a brilliant comedian, helped create the Chappelle Show and I'll never forget what he said. He's like, you know, you'll probably get what you always wanted, just not in the ways you were expecting it. And then he said, actually, you'll probably get what you always wanted, but by the time you get it, you won't want it anymore. and I found that to be incredibly true. And so everything in my life, I could not have sort of expected it or set it up in the game plan, but it's been exactly what I needed at the right time. And I think that me using all of this goodwill that I've accrued to sort of help people is sort of like the only, it's the only thing to do.

Yeah. What's the thing you got that you really wanted that you realized when you got it wasn't that. Wasn't all that after all?

Oh, man. That's such a great question.

Is it landing some big show or getting some award or something that you thought was going to change the way you felt about yourself or give you something that you didn't have?

I think there's, look, I went through years really struggling. I was having a great part of my life in social media and speaking gigs and writing this book for three years. and then, but I was not really working as an actor. And that was so ego deflating.

Really?

It was this thing that I'd done since I was nine. And I'm like, and I'm dealing with this idea of like, but I'm taken care of and I feel like ungrateful to be pissed, but, and yet, like, there's this thing that I, my identity is wrapped up in it. And if I am not this, then what am I? And, you know, I would audition, I would get close to certain things. So I'm like, okay, like I'm in the ballpark, but it just wasn't connecting. And then I finally, once I had sort of let it all go, right, which people had told me my whole life, but it was like the destination without the directions, which was like, oh, when you stop caring, that's when you book the big job. I was like, well, that sounds great, but that's like a bumper sticker.

Yeah.

How do I do it? But I had to like really face that thing of like, can I be okay without the things that I thought would make me all better? Like, can I allow a good life to be the result of good living instead of like, but I need these trophies? I swear to God, once I get this award, I'll be fine. Or once I have X in my bank account, then I'll be okay. I had to be okay with like, I have a wife, I have a kid, I can pay my bills. Like, I feel like I'm a good man. Like, I gotta be okay with that. And the rest has to be icing. So I got a really great job. I became the lead in this Disney+ TV show called Turner & Hooch, which is very canceled, but it was very good for the time we made it. And I love doing it, but even in that moment, you know, I'm standing on set and I'm like, I miss my kid. You know? And I was like, if you had flashed forward or flashed back six months ago, I would have been like, to be the lead of some big fancy show would be the only thing I'd want in the world. I loved every second of it and I would have loved to keep doing it. But certainly in those moments, I'm like, well, there's always something. You know, you're always sort of, you're never all better.

Yeah. That's interesting, that's good perspective. Speaking of your kid, how old is your kid?

He's three.

Three years old. What has been the biggest lesson of fatherhood so far for you?

Oh boy. I think it's much like we were chatting, I'm not sure whether we were chatting on camera about it or it was before we were rolling, but lack of reaction and how much that will serve me.

Not reacting to things. Why is that?

Because so much goes on in a given day with my three-year-old son. And I would eventually guess most three-year-olds where you are so overwhelmed by this joy and meaning and value as a human being, and then you feel utterly frustrated and hopeless because like, why doesn't this kid listen to me? And you're like, oh yeah, he's three, it would be ridiculous if he bent to my will. He's figuring out his place on this earth too, and he's pushing limits and trying things. And I've learned that from my wife, really. I always imagined that I would puff up on my kid. and be like, here are the rules, and we're gonna be like, and I'm gonna teach you how to be a man. When in reality, it's about me being non-reactive and just, you know, gentle, giving him gentle guidance about what's right and what's not. And obviously you still have your bottom lines, like, hey, we're not gonna act like this, and if we do, we're gonna go into a time out. But there's no need to sort of.

Be-- explode or react or something like that.

And my wife leads by example in that way.

That's beautiful. What's the biggest lesson your father taught you by not being here?

You know, there were sort of two things about my dad that I realized. One was this idea of, in my 20s, I would sort of have these relationships Throughout my teens, it was initially with men in my life that I would turn men into these father figures without them knowing.

Older male figures?

Yeah, and these sort of COVID contracts that I would make with men that they had no idea about.

Just like TV executives or managers or agents or...

The doorman of my building.

Interesting. Really?

Random guys that if they were nice to me or I just would put them on a pedestal and basically set them up to disappoint me.

Of course.

And then it would just breed resentment. And then eventually with women in my life, what I found was, you know, I'd get into these relationships and like, you know, these are typical of the relationships you have in your early 20s. Like it wasn't these super long-term things, but, you know, I would be dating someone and then there would be a natural conflict as is just natural in relationships, especially early on. and I would just head for the hills. Because I wanted to, what I didn't know was that I was sort of perpetuating the bad behavior of my dad. Because what I was doing was I was saying, listen, he left, so obviously nothing is forever, right? Like if 50% of your parental system can leave, well then you know, there's a chance no one will stick around ever. So I'm okay, and actually I'm gonna prove to you how okay I am by leaving first, right? So-- Wow. And like, she would be left going like, we were literally like fighting over-- Nothing.

Yeah.

What we were gonna order for takeout. For takeout.

Like-- Wow.

It would just be these like little triggers that instead of being like, oh, these are the natural conflicts that if you walk through as a couple, you become closer.

When did you realize that was a thing. And how did you learn to shift that energy from leaving to, okay, let me have the uncomfortable conversation and figure out a solution?

I think it was, you know, I think it all sort of stemmed from recovery and getting sober and being aware of, like, the work. Like, you'll never know what the thing is that wakes you up to this idea of life is constant inner work.

Right.

And you talked about it early on, like, you're doing your therapy, like, It's like, how can I hold myself more accountable? Even if you have the best parents, there's always going to be some blind spots, some gaps in your rearing where you have to do some self-parenting, and usually with the help of others.

Absolutely. That's interesting. So have you been doing a lot of self-parenting for your life recently?

Well, I just think it became this idea of whether through recovery, through other people, through traditional therapy, It was like, how can I look at these things, these negative patterns, and try not to allow them to completely run my life? And then I learned it from my wife, because when we started dating, we would get in, you know, we would have a conflict or get into a fight, and I finally understood that family doesn't leave. And so she made me understand that, like, oh, we can fight. We can even go to bed angry. But family doesn't leave. So where am I going? We'll figure this out today, tomorrow, or maybe in a week from now. But family doesn't leave. So when we're ready, I'll be here to figure this out.

You take some time if you need to to go have space, but then come back and we'll talk about it.

Yeah.

And that was revelatory for me because it reinforced this idea, but her family structure was so healthy that that was natural to her. And it wasn't even though I have this great mom who was so there for me, I was so influenced by this guy simply by him just not being there.

What was the positive lesson that him not being there taught you?

The positive, I think, I don't know, I think it all being full circle with me having a son. And I think it might not sound positive, but it allowed me to have closure with him, which was, Having my son and totally getting off on these mundane things of, you know, putting clothes on my kid or bathing him or walking him for miles while he slept in his stroller. I started to feel bad for my dad.

Really?

I was like, He missed out on all this. You know? And I think once you can have empathy, it's nice. Because, you know, I think for most of us, the initial is just anger and resentment. And when it can evolve into empathy eventually, it's like, oh, this is less corrosive to my spirit.

Yeah. That's a beautiful perspective, man. I've got a couple of final questions for you before I ask them. Happy people are annoying. You look very happy here on both sides of the book.

It's a beat and switch.

Right, exactly. Make sure you guys get a copy of the book, the Unmemoir Memoir. Self-help, teaching a lot of stories about here that Josh has gone through and lessons and inspiring things. So make sure you guys pick up a copy of this. It's going to be really insightful stuff. You're all over social media. I think you've got 30 plus million followers. It's Josh Peck everywhere. Twitter, Instagram, Josh Peck official on Facebook. What platform are you spending the most time on and excited about the most right now?

I think it's Instagram. I'm actually Shua Peck. I know. I'm all over the place with these hands. Okay. I'm a mess.

Got you, I read it backward. This is dyslexic, I see things backwards, but I see it.

Shua Peck, yes, on Instagram.

But, yeah, I would say TikTok and Instagram, for sure. TikTok as well. You're going hard on TikTok, huh? You gotta love it. I mean, it's like buying. Do you, I don't, we're posting stuff on there. I know from the show, I think we have like 1.5 or 6 million followers. I'm sure you got like 30 million on there, but. No, I mean, not crazy. Yeah, just like 20. But I like it. I don't go on there that much because every time I go on there, I'm on there for like an hour just seeing what are the trends, what's happening, what's the new stuff out there? And so I try not to look at it for like a week or two at a time and then I spend like an hour or two just down the rabbit hole. It's fun. Oh yeah, it's too much though.

The algorithm knows us better than we know ourselves.

I get just motivational speech after motivational speech. Do you? That's awesome. that's all I like to watch, really. So do you find.

That's interesting because, like, I would. I would also guess that at certain times you're like, enough motivation. Like, this is my business.

Yeah.

Sometimes they need a release.

Absolutely. I mean, they throw in other stuff that I like, too.

I can.

I mean, just like, I have a cat, so there's, like, different cat stuff or animal stuff. It's always fun for me to just. Got a cat.

Mmm.

Yeah. Love it.

Loved, loved dogs. I probably love dogs more than cats, but the amount of responsibility of having a dog is too much. It's too much for my personality because I put so much love and attention, and I want to be around the dog all the time. I want to walk the dog all the time. And then I. So I lose myself in, like, the rest of my life because I put so much on the dog. Right. Because my heart is too big for these animals. So, cat, I love cats, but I can leave and I don't feel as bad. Right. I just got back from a trip for a few days and I was missing my cat. I was like, I have a little cat, like a camera that watches to see when the motion is in there.

That's awesome.

Oh, how's my cat? My cat's name is Grady. Grady the pod cat.

If we were in high school together.

Grady the pod cat.

I would look at you and I would be like, that guy. He's got it all. And I'd be like, Athlete, handsome. I wasn't handsome back then.

Trust me, you weren't. That's what all hot people say.

They go, you, should have seen me in high school. I'm like, I'd like to see that.

I was goofy, man.

Listen, you should see me in high school. I've seen photos of you. It's in reruns. Just check out Team Nick. And who would have known that you would have been a future cat guy? And that would have really humanized you to be a cat guy, man.

Yeah.

If I had known in high school you'd be a future cat guy, I'd.

Be like, that guy's all right. That guy's not bad. He's not too cool for school. Exactly. You're the big teen star celebrity up in here. You're too cool for school. Happy people are annoying. Make sure you guys pick up a copy, get some for your friends, share it out. Follow you over all social media. This question I asked these two final questions. This one I asked people at the end. It's called the three truths question. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on Earth, many years away. You live as long as you want, but eventually you got to pass away. And you get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. You live a healthy, happy life. You've got the family. Everything happens the way you want it or envision it or better. But for whatever reason in this world, you've got to take all of your work with you. So all the reruns that you're embarrassed by, they go with you. The books, the content, the social media, anything you share into the world no one has access to anymore. All your message. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons you would share with the world. What would be those three truths for you?

It takes no courage to critique. It takes courage to create. Allow a good life to be the result of good living. And the bad times are here to teach us, and the good times are here to remind us what we're fighting for.

Mm. Sounds like you've had that memorized for a while. That's so good.

I hope everyone has the opportunity to meet John Stamos once, because he's as handsome in person.

I'm sure.

That would just be like a footnote.

That was like 3.1. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

He lives up to that.

The hair, huh?

It's great. It's great.

The whole thing.

The whole thing.

Oh yeah. The swag, the smile, the hair.

Dude, you should smell him.

He smells like a man.

Ooh, smells like an old book.

Ooh, smells good.

An old book.

Yeah, like the inside of a drawer.

Cedar.

Cedar. I like this man. I want to acknowledge you, Josh, for a moment for the journey you've been on. I think growing up, I don't know what it's like to not have a father growing up. I couldn't imagine that. growing up and turning out to be a decent human being, but also having these kind of different shadows in your teens and early 20s that you learn to face and overcome. I think it's really challenging to face the big challenges in our life. The unhealthy addictions, losing the weight, losing 100 pounds, that seems almost impossible for people when they think of that task, if they've gone that far. So to do that and overcome all the other challenges and also overcome the fear of abandonment and not running away in intimacy and relationships. I think that's probably the thing I'm wanting to acknowledge the most for, for diving into committed relationship, marriage and not running away. I think it's really beautiful journey that you've been on. I'm excited to see what you create in service with all this as a foundation moving forward. So I really acknowledge you for this man. And excited to see what you build moving forward. My final question, what's your definition of greatness?

Oh man. Oh my God. I should have been more prepared for this one. Definition, what's my definition of greatness? It's how you affect others.

Yeah.

What you do with the great things that are given to you.

I think. That's good, Josh. Thanks, man.

Thank you, brother.

Appreciate it, brother. I want you to stick around for some more powerful content that reminded me of this interview, and I know you're gonna love it. If there are three things that everyone could take away from the Stoics to improve the quality of their life right now, first, what would that be?

I got some good ones. So, one of the questions we ask ourselves when we're afraid of something, when we're thinking about, we go, but what about me? What would I do if?

Right?

Like we're worried. And Marcus Aurelius goes, you'll meet that with the same weapons you've met all your other problems. So remembering that like, hey, you've been scared before and you're still here.

Right?

So we often, often what our fear is really doing is underestimating or under counting how good we actually are at what we do. Like you're not suddenly tomorrow gonna be a helpless loser. you're the same person you are today. And what will you do? You'll figure it out. Just like if you quit your job, you'd be like, I'm quitting and I'm gonna go find a new job. But if you got fired, that suddenly feels like disempowered, whereas the other one feels very empowered. So remembering what you're capable of to me is really important.

Okay, that's one.

Number two, the Stoics say that we should always be training. So one of the reasons I think it's important to have like a physical practice, one of the reasons it's good to seek out adversity and difficulty is so when stuff happens, you're right. Epictetus, one of the early stoics, he's actually a slave and he says like, you want to get to a point where when stuff happens, you're able to say like, this is what I trained for.

Right.

Like you knew this could happen and you did the work.

Yes. Before you go into the next one, it's, it's, Right when the pandemic happened, I was like, this sucks. And yet I've been training for this for the last 12-13 years of my life.

Yes.

Because in 2008, well in 2007 I got injured and had surgery, and then 2008 the housing crisis and there were no jobs for someone like me without a college degree that was ignorant from school. I was like, I better develop myself so that when this happens again in 5, 10, 20 years, I'm ready to take on any adversity. Maybe it's not fun and it's still challenging, but I'm prepared and ready. And I spent 13 years training for that moment. And I felt a sense of, kind of weirdly, I felt a sense of peace that gave me the energy and the clarity to take action and shift where I needed to and lead from a place of courage as opposed to, and I wasn't perfect, but lead from a more calm, peaceful place as opposed to a frantic, fearful place.

Well, look, preparation makes you brave, right? You prepared so you were ready. And then I think also because you remembered what you felt then, you were also in a position to lead and understand what people who were not as prepared to hear.

What they're experiencing. It sucks. So you can have empathy like you talked about, you can connect with people in that way. Okay, so always be training, always be learning something new. training yourself physically, mentally, emotionally.

And the third one would be this stoic exercise of Memento Mori, which basically means remember you will die. I actually carry a coin in my pocket that says this. But I think when you realize like, hey, life is already short and fragile, like, I don't need to, if I'm spending my time cowering in fear or worrying, I'm acting as if I have a certain power over things that I don't. There's this famous stoic story where like the emperor sees this stoic philosopher who he hates and he's like, I'm threatening you to death or I'm sentencing you to death. And he's like, I was already sentenced to death.

At some point.

Yeah. He's like, you have no more power over me than life itself.

Than mother nature. Yeah, just completely powerless.

Exactly. And so realizing that life is fragile, I think sometimes people can miss this. Like, momento Mori doesn't mean like, oh, like, don't wear a motorcycle helmet or pretend the pandemic is not real. That's not what it's saying. But it's saying like, hey, focus on the parts of safety and concern that are in your control. But if you're wasting your time being afraid, that's something I thought a lot about in the pandemic. It's like, look, I don't know, especially early on, we don't know where this is going, don't know where it means, don't know what is ticking clock is in anyone's body, right? What pre-existing condition you might have or bad piece of luck you got. So you take it seriously, but within that, what are you doing with your time, right? Like, what are you gonna spend your time on? So if you're spending that time worrying, stressing, watching the news all day. Yeah, what you're actually doing is rejecting the life that you have in front of you.

It's kind of like a longer eclipse. It's like there's an eclipse that's happening. We don't know what this is, but you could sit there and worry and fear for those five minutes of the eclipse or whatever, or you can look up and enjoy it and do something with your time and make the most of this and prepare and strategize and organize your time.

Yeah, James Stockdale who spent seven years in a prison camp in Vietnam who reads the Stoics. He says, you know, he gets there and he goes, I never lost sight of the fact that I controlled the end of the story.

Right?

So if he got out, that he would control the end, he would decide what he said, and that I could turn this into something that in retrospect I would not have traded for.

Isn't that crazy?

That's incredible.

It's like Mandela as well. It's like 25 years or something.

So, I think we have, it takes courage to say, this thing happened to me and I wouldn't have chosen it, I didn't want it, but now that it's here, I'm going to face it, I'm going to apply all my training and experience towards it, and then I'm not going to waste my life being bitter, resentful, afraid, passive about it and I'm just gonna get to work turning it into something.

Yeah. I'm not sure if this is 100% true or accurate, but I heard someone say that Bhutan is like the happiest country. Really? I'm not sure if you've heard of this. It's because I don't know if everyone does this or just some people do this there. They focus on their death five times a day. They think about their death five times a day. And so there's an app, I think it's called croaked. Or you will croak or something like that where five times a day, I had it for a while, it sends you a reminder you're gonna die with an inspiring quote that has you reflect on your death five times a day to remind yourself. Do you have this on your phone?

No, no, did I give you one of these? This one I carry in my pocket.

Let me see. Oh, nice.

You should just carry that. It's like a nice way to spin it and the idea is you could.

Leave your, you could leave life right now.

And the rest of that quote, so Mark says, you could leave life right now and he says, let that determine what you do and say and think. And so to me, the power of meditating on your death is that it puts everything in perspective. It doesn't make things meaningless. It actually makes them meaningful because.

It.

Says like, if this doesn't matter, I shouldn't be doing it. And if it does matter, I should be doing it as if it is the last time that you get to do it. Right. Like, I think one of the things, I don't know about you, but like as like an ambitious or driven person, I find myself like rushing a lot, right? Like, like gotta go here, gotta go there. This is taking too long. I don't want to wait. I haven't found myself, like, like my son, he often like naps in the car. so it's like, you're in the car as long as he's asleep. And I'll find myself like, you're behind a slow driver. And you're like, I gotta get around this. And then I'm like, I'm not going anywhere.

Right?

Like, I'm rushing. And so what I've started to remind myself is like, what are you rushing towards? You're rushing towards death, right? Not just 'cause speeding is unsafe, but you're rushing towards, like as you're rushing out of a moment, you're rushing away from life. Seneca talks about, he says, don't think of death as happening in the future. Think of death as happening right now.

Really? Why?

Because the time that passes belongs to death. So when you die, you're like, you've lived 80 years, but also that's 80 dead years that can never come back. So if you think about the time that passing as being death happening, like every minute you're getting closer to death, You don't want to rush through a moment. You want to fully experience the moment.

Even if you're waiting in line or behind a car or impatient.

This is life. And when you're rushing, you're rushing away from it or you're rushing toward death. And so you slow down, you go, okay, I've been alive 34 years. What do I have to sh-- Was I alive for 34 years?

Or was I rushing? Right.

Or was I rushing away to to get to 35, but maybe I die at 35.

Right?

You don't know. So if you just go like, the present is here, I'm going to be controlled enough and courageous enough to just, this is enough, this is it, doesn't need to be anything or anywhere else. I'm just going to be here and I'm not going to rush away. And kids have really been helpful for this because you're like, oh, not only am I rushing potentially towards death, but you're at the very least they will never be this age again.

So.

As you're trying to get this over with, you have to miss those years. Yeah, and eventually you're gonna be like, oh, if only they were five again. But when they were five, you wanted it to be over.

The screaming, the crying, the pooping, or whatever it is, it's like, oh, I wish they could do this on their own, but you look back and you.

Don'T really want that.

Yeah. So you want to stay there forever? You're like, what a capture this moment. Yeah.

And that's, this is true even for the shitty stuff. Like, even when you're stuck in traffic, even when you're home with the flu, even with, like, so true.

It's like, I don't know if you think about this. I mean, you've always just been, like, talented and successful your entire life, unlike me, where I struggled and went through pain for years. But I feel like especially the years after my dream was over playing football. And I was like, well, who am I? What is my identity? What is the value I add to the world if this was my value? How can I, you know, just survive and thrive in this world without that value or identity anymore? I remember just being in a state of uncertainty for a while and wanting to get out of it, wanting to have a job, wanting to launch a business, wanting to have money, wanting to have an audience, wanting to have a book, all these different things, wanting to have something. And when I look back and I'm like, man, those moments were really meaningful of what I was living and learning moment and day by day. The struggle, the pain, the adversity. Like, I'm recreating that in other ways just by trying to get to the next level, but I'll never live that aspect. Those moments again, the specific time, Well.

And when you got those things, was it as magical as you thought it would be? It never is.

It wasn't, yeah, I mean it wasn't as fulfilling. It was cool to see like a full circle and reflect back, but it was never like, oh, this is, I've made it, you know?

You never feel like you've made it. And so that, like, I talk about this a little bit in some of my stuff where like, what will happen is you get to the metal stand, right? New York Times bestseller, Olympic gold medal, you know, all American, whatever the thing is, right? And there's an anticlimacticness to it.

After 10 minutes, you're like, Now-- we.

Talk about this in the School of Greatness. You're like, Now what? So the problem is people can learn, you can go two ways. You feel the now what? So you can go, Now, oh, I gotta find something really meaningful.

I gotta go bigger.

Well, no, no. So you either use look at that and you're like, oh, it was never about accomplishments. It was always about being present and meaning and connection and the friends you made along the way. Or you go, oh, it's that I have to do it again. Or, oh, it wasn't a million dollars, it was a billion dollars. And so you can see why that moving of the goalposts creates really successful people, but they are rarely happy people.

Happy or fulfilled.

Yes.

And peaceful inside.

Yes. And I think it's funny, the journey I'm on, what I'm trying to do, I would like to be proof that it is possible to be world class at what you do and come from a place of contentment and fullness, not have to do, not being like, I just need this, then I will be good. Because you're never ever good.

There's always gonna be some writer better than you or someone that writes a book in a way that's different than you or some whatever. This could be Someone more talented, more successful, richer, you know. Of course.

I mean, you meet someone, there's a story about Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut. Kurt Vonnegut wrote Slaughterhouse-Five, Joseph Heller wrote Catch-22, two of the great writers of the 20th century. And they're at this party, and you've been at parties like this where you're a much richer person, right? Like one of those, you're like, why am I here? And Kurt Vonnegut is teasing Joseph Heller and he says, you know this guy made more money this week than your book will make in its entire life. And he says, yeah, but I have something he doesn't have. And he's like, what could that possibly be? And he says, I have enough.

And.

It'S not that that guy just wrote Catch-22 and then he sat on his ass. He wrote other great stuff. He did great work. He just wasn't coming at it from a place of craving. Like, you know, we had that word thirst. Like, he wasn't thirsty. He was quenched, but he was doing it because he actually liked it. I remember the first time one of my books hit number one, I was mowing the lawn at my house. And my agent, Steve, called me and I was like, Now I have to finish mowing this lawn. You know, like it was like, okay.

At a 10-minute moment, I saw here, like, pushing this thing.

And then you realize, I was like, oh, it's never gonna be. I don't know what I thought it was gonna be, but I didn't think it was gonna be that. And I feel grateful that I didn't think, oh, I have to have back-to-back number ones. That will be it.

You know, it's interesting. I remember Steve, when Steve called me, because we're the same agent, and when I hit number, I didn't hit number one, but I went hit the New York Times with a solo list, and I remember for, like, an hour just being like, wow, this is something I dreamed about, but then After an hour like calling everyone and be like congratulations. I was like Did anything change like nothing really changed I think yeah, there wasn't like opening up the gates and money dropping down or people calling me It's like a few people noticed and a few okay, you do one post on Instagram and then people compliment and then people move on well, so on this time moves on you know it's on this book.

I'm actually thinking about that because you know when you do a book There's this whole lane of prioritization of like how do you get on the list? Yes, and it takes a lot of your time and energy And why do you do it? It's obviously there's some business reasons, but part of it is, if not ego, it's this like people said that's important, so you're like, that's as good a target as any. On this one, and I'm a little bit of a thing with my publisher where I'm like, no, I just want to like get as many books in people's hands as possible, so I'm like ignoring all that. But there is a kind of a fear there because it's like, the one benefit of that strategy is that the success is clear and objective and recognizable by other people.

Yes.

So like, The book's gonna come out, I know it's doing well. I already know the track that it's on. But like, I'm not saying I'm gonna get condolences, but there are people who are gonna be like, oh, I guess it didn't work as well.

You know, like, so, so-- It's kind of been like all your books, they like didn't hit right away. It's like two years later, now it's number one.

And it's crushing. Just the idea of like, hey, I, you have to determine what success is to you and to not base it.

On what other people-- that's so hard.

That's courage.

It's hard to do. Tell you what, for me the last, Two years, I've been working on developing a new book, but I've also been like, gosh, do I do the traditional publisher thing? And I've been having these conversations, but I'm like, I just want to let that go and just write a good book that people are impacted by.

Right.

But it's like, oh, do you worry about the advance and what people are gonna ask you about it? Or do you not care about that at all? Self-publish it and just try to help as many people as possible. Is there a balance? And literally, it has been holding me back until the last six weeks. for the last couple of years, I've been in this limbo. I think one, because I've been trying to build my business in the pandemic and shifting, but this has been on my mind, this conversation for two years during all this. And it's not until now where I'm just like, okay, I need to get clear, I just need to take action and do it from the highest level place possible, do things that are smart as well for business, but also just do what's gonna help as many people.

Well, it's a safety net, right? To do it, to do the conventional, like this is how it's done, is safer. Because like, then no one's gonna be like, what an idiot.

Or like, oh, he's falling off the wagon.

Yeah, he's a loser, it didn't work. You know, he's on the decline. And so the decision to do stuff that you care about, that requires sort of like burning the boats behind you and just going like, I'm on this journey. And I think it's particularly hard in today's world where, you know, there's view counts and likes. Like there's so much more public quantification of what's done. And like when I talk to sports teams, I sometimes say that I'm a little bit jealous. It's like it's obvious whether they're doing a good job or not.

You're jealous?

I love the clarity of sports.

Win, lose, win, lose. How many points? Did you get the height or not? Yes.

But the reality is in the world that the rest of us exist in.

It'S like a committee and how many people like it?

You're running your own race. Like you have to decide what success is.

Yeah, I know.

And that means criticizing yourself when you fall short of your own metrics. And it also means congratulating yourself on a success that perhaps other people don't recognize.

Right. The success could be just, I'm proud of this chapter I wrote in this week or this month, even though no one's gonna be able to see it. No one's buying this, but I'm proud of the work that I'm putting in, the effort, the energy, the process.

I've tried to get to, I would say that on my first book, I was 10% this is a success because I made it and it was the best I was capable of, and 90% let's see what the results are. Let's see how it does. And I would like to think that as I've gone forward, that slowly flipped and that I'm now 90, it's already a success because it exists.

Even if no one buys this, it's my best work. I put my best work. Yeah, yeah.

And then 10% like bonus, like hey, it worked, won awards, got recognition.

But isn't it, like we talked about in the beginning, there's kind of like three levels to like a book. There's the mastery of writing the book, which you've become one of the greatest writers of our time in distilling wisdom, ancient wisdom, and creating practical examples on how you can actually do this for today's life. And millions of people have read your books. But you could master writing the book, but you also have to master doing the marketing and promotion and now putting yourself out there and communicating it, and then master being patient. Maybe put out the great book, and no one cared about it right now for a few years, but then you'd be patient and people start buying it.

Well, I think you want to rank them. So the stoics say that their first task in life, the most important task in life is what is up to me and what is not up to me. Like separating things into the category of is it in my control, is it not in my control. So as I look at like any project or business or whatever, I prioritize based on like what's most in my control to what's least in my control. So like the first mastery of the thing itself, like is it the best album, the best video, the best, you know, live event it could possibly be? You have as much control over that as you're gonna have of anything. That's yours. So like there you have the ability to get most of the win before it's even out. Then marketing and promotion and communicating and talking about it, that's more something you have influence over as opposed to something you control. Because it's like, what's happening in the world? How on point or trend is your thing? But it's also, are you willing to put in the time? Are you willing to... So many people just think they're better than that and so they don't do it. And then the third part is the patience or the time. It's like you gotta, the audience will like it. Imagine you're Herman Melville, you write Moby Dick. It gets savaged. Everyone's like, this is not just not good. This is horrible. We're offended that you did it. And then only towards the end of your life and after your life does it finally get the recognition you deserve. So that part's the least in your control. and you have to be somewhat detached from that. Because if you're sitting, if you wake up every day and you're like, is this the day that people finally recognize me for all my contributions? You have handed your happiness over to something that's not up to you.

It's true. It's funny as you were saying that, I grew up in a religion called Christian Science that a woman discovered this religion and wrote a book called science and health. And this is the same time back in the late 1800s when Mark Twain was around. And they were kind of like frenemies, I guess. And Mark Twain wrote an entire book trashing this woman, Mary Baker Eddy, and her findings of the science behind healing. It was essentially like the science of Jesus' healing. Here's how it works. Here's how the mind works and how we can heal ourselves. And he wrote an entire book bashing her and the religion called Christian Science, which was like this critical of her work because she kept writing the same book with expanded updates every year, like so many different editions of the same book. And it kept hitting number one. And he had to write new books all the time. So I think he was just frustrated that this woman kept writing the same book over and over with like, Here's more finding and research and of how the mind and body is healed through the mind. And it's funny, like she just kept going because she was focused on the work and healing people one at a time and the message spread. But I think it's interesting that.

For.

The reason that came up for me, because the more you put your work out there, the more criticized it's gonna be open to. There's more people gonna be wanting to criticize it. And I think a lot of people aren't ready for criticism. They're not trained to deal. No one teaches you how to deal with criticism when you have an audience.

No, no one teaches, because it's a champagne problem that a lot of people never get to.

Yes.

So there's not like a lot of instructions, but it is inevitable. And like, you have to realize, I've realized a couple of things. One is like, critics are almost always louder than your fans. Like, people who dislike something are much louder than the people who are like, why is that? That's pretty good.

Why is that?

I think it's one feels more strongly than the other. Like the stuff I like, I'm like cool.

Right?

You know? But then when you really hate something, you're like, I need them to suffer how I am suffering. So a lot of times I think you're just different levels of enthusiasm. Even if, you know, even if 10% of the people hated it and 90% of the people liked it, you're gonna hear more from the 10%.

There's nothing, there's nothing scarier than knowing there's something in you that could push the nuclear button at any time. And wait, and you can't stop it?

I mean, I have no control over my own life. Right.

So whatever you say could make me do it.