How To LET GO, MOVE ON & HEAL From A Toxic Relationship! | Dr. Ramani & Lewis Howes

One thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers because I think what people say, I don't want to be triggered. I'm like, nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system. It's always going to be quicker than you. So because it's always going to be quicker, we have to be aware.

I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes. We were talking about this beforehand that this is one of the biggest challenges people face in modern society is understanding and navigating narcissism. How to understand if you're a narcissist, how to understand if there's people in your life life who have these tendencies or personality traits and really how to create healthy boundaries the best way possible. First, I want to talk about with you is because the previous one, we kind of went through unpacking what a narcissist is.

Yeah.

The different types of narcissism and how to, how to spot it and how to see it. And I think a lot of people got through, went through breakups since then. You know, a lot of people probably ended relationships that they realized were very toxic and unhealthy and not a vision for what they wanted.

Right, right, right.

And so for people, the first question I'll ask you, for people who have ended relationships with a narcissist or narcissistic personalities, what's the best way for them to enter a new relationship without PTSD or without the remnants of, are they gonna lash out at me? Are they gonna gaslight me? Are they gonna do these things that I've experienced in the past? What's the best way to overcome that? and enter a new relationship without bringing that baggage in a new one.

When I work with survivors in my practice and when I speak to them in a subscription, like a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month, the one thing I say is you got a way to beat. The temptation is I'm going to throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser. I'm like, you know what? Sit with that dirty palate for a minute because you need to do this work in you because I think the challenge is that When people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life, right? Or both. And so what happens is that if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you. A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you. You have now been living in someone else's reality, right? If people forget, Do I like pepperoni pizza or do I enjoy this TV show? Or what temperature do I want the house at? Like you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are. You lose sense of reality and your own perception of things. You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person. So I tell people, listen, my gold standard is a year. Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time and everyone will be like, I'm like, you know what? Take care of your own business, but a year. I understand that feels like a long time, but here's the thing. These relationships get so much into someone's head that in a year a person can re-coalesce and they can unpack it and they can start putting down some of the rumination. You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?

You don't want to bring that.

You don't want to bring that in. And you can also learn what you like, what you don't like, so that when somebody encroaches on that and says, they say something contemptuous, oh, who eats that? And say, okay, this is not, this is not okay, I'm not doing this again. You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right. But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle. You need that separation. You need a break from anniversary dates. You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take, you've gotta go live a life without them. And once you, because otherwise you're so, again, caught up, you might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm. So, now I know a lot of people say, a year just feels too long. I'm like, I got you, I get it. A year is optimal. And the folks who've done it said, I don't regret doing that at all now. But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months. But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship, where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, oh my God, I didn't think of them once today. That's a good day.

That's an amazing day.

And I want, not just one of those, I want a person to have a month of those. A while of those where they're just, you know, sure something might remind them or something, but not that like, what are they doing? What are they up to? Almost to the point where you've detached, it might even be a moderate indifference, like, oh, whatever. Let them do them.

It doesn't trigger you.

It doesn't set you off in the same way, but I do caution people, depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those echoes years down the line, even if they've fallen in love with someone else. And someone will say, does that mean I'm not over them? Not at all. It means that the way the trauma systems and the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you. I've been through this and I gotta tell you, to this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past, I can think of a few... You have a response. Oh my gosh, beyond a response. I actually think I would have to It would almost, it would be akin to panic. And I honestly do not care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would be really upsetting for me. It's not that I'm not over it, it's just that my nervous system is.

Just like danger, danger, death, danger, danger, death. Get away from this experience. Yeah, interesting. Wow. So the optimal is nine months to a year, but it's really more like taking the temperature of allowing your nervous system to heal, see if you can have a few days in a row and a month in a row where you're not thinking about that person or it's not triggering you. consistently before you enter into a new relationship.

And that you're clearer on who you are. You're not because in a narcissistic relationship, you're defined by the relationship. Are they happy today? Are we having a good day? Are they happy with their lives? It's everything is about them, right? So now for the first time, you make things be about you. Like, I'm good. Like, no, I want to pursue this job. Yeah, no, I'm moving to New York and not like, oh, is this gonna work? You for a minute, you. And when you meet your person, capital P, and it's healthy, they might say like, ah, you know what, for about six months we can do this long distance or I can work remotely, I'll come to New York, we'll figure it out. You'll start to see that there's a possibility for compromise. But I do think that a lot of people after a narcissistic relationship, their trip wire is a bit more sensitive. and they may throw back a few fish that are big enough to keep, and that's okay. I'd rather that they, people overcorrect than undercorrect. And they might say, am I, and this is where, again, when I work with clients, they'll say, am I being too intense about this? Is this too big and ask? Nine times out of ten, Louis, it's not too big. Like they're right on point with the thing they're sensing feels red flaggy to them or doesn't feel comfortable or something doesn't, isn't sitting well. And I'm teaching people, listen to that.

It's so funny you're saying this because when I got into my, my relationship with Martha, my girlfriend now, in the beginning, I was like, listen, part of, I think I specifically said to her, like, I kind of want you to run away from me because I want to be so authentically myself that it either draws you into me because you accept and receive who I am, or it kind of repels you away from me of, like, my truth and my vision and my mission and who I am in this world and my being, right? My what I want to create in this life. Because I think I gave in so much in previous relationships to please others and to be changed who I was and morph to make sure they were okay and happy, which is all my responsibility for doing that. But I was like, I'm not changing who I am just to make one person happy, right? I'm going to, this is why I am if you want to hang out and be friends and see how it goes, cool. If not, that's cool too. But I'm not going to change myself to try to get you to like me and make you constantly happy. Or anytime you're upset at me for doing something, I'm gonna stop doing it just to make you happy and be right. And I'm so glad that I did that. Part of me was like probably some PTSD in the beginning where I was like, I'm just doing this to protect myself.

-Right.

-Because I'd rather be single. -Correct.

-Then get into a relationship that's unhealthy. -And that's the key, right? I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy.

And that's the, that's because that's, that's what people are afraid of. -Yeah. And I was like, I'll be single the rest of my life. If it means I'm not going to be in this type of relationships that I've been in the previous. And it's creating a new standard for myself. You know, what I'll allow in and what I want to allow. what boundaries I'll create and making sure that it's in alignment with my partner as well. And I'm glad I did that. Even though in the beginning, she's like, you might add a little PTSD still from the previous relationship. I'm kind of glad that I came with that. I would call it, I was very courageous in my communication about this is my truth. And it may scare you away. And I have to be okay if you're not correcting it. I have to be okay if you don't like me. Correct. And here's like an amazing woman that may not want to be with me and I have to be okay with that. Yes. But it's not giving in anymore. Right.

It's not giving in.

And I think that that's the key. Yeah, and it was a beautiful experiment for me entering a relationship that way about being honest about this is who I am, this is my values, this is my vision, this is what I'm aligned to and what I'm not aligned to. If this is something you want to explore, then let's keep dating and exploring it and seeing how it goes. and I think that was a beautiful experience for me to witness the receiving of that on the other side and just being consistent with my word. This is what I want, this is what I not want and being in that place. But how can we make sure, but in the beginning, I'll probably say there was a little PTSD reminiscence of it. How can we make sure we don't bring in that energy? Is it just waiting for a year and nine months and doing the work on the healing process, but how do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships?

When you say bring that past past relationship into new relationships, what do you think that looks like? What do you mean by that?

The traumas of the past relationship, the trigger responses, the things that you did in previous relationships to protect yourself, how do you continue to keep an open heart and open minds and not go back into the default?

Right. So one thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers. Because I think what people say, I don't want to be triggered. I'm like, nah, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system. It's always going to be quicker than you. So you are, it is because it's always going to be quicker. We have to be aware, for example, sometimes we even feel it. Like I know that for people in a relationship, something will happen. They'll hear something and they'll feel that tightness in their chest, that funniness in their gut. Right. The key then becomes is to say, okay, I am uncomfortable. Let me hear through that. That's where the mindfulness, you almost got to try to punch through that. Let me be present with what they're saying, even though, you know, it's almost like trying to listen to someone in a noisy bar at that point. You know, when you lean in, you're like, okay, I'm fully concentrating on what this person's saying, because oh, it's chaos around me. But so that's that chaos, that sympathetic nervous system turning on, is like the noise in a bar. So now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them. I know when I have that response, I literally watch their mouth, because I'm like, okay, I can shape out the words, and it almost gives me a totally mindful to watch them shape the words. It's almost like you can think of it in a movie when they go right into someone's mouth. And so now I'm really paying attention to what they're saying because the danger of the trigger is that we don't hear. Right? So it's to be aware, we're in freeze mode, our eyes become wide, the whole nine yards. We feel that and then we start to name it and say, I can feel that I'm getting activated like I did before. I've really gotta listen. I'm not gonna, 'cause we can't, you're not gonna turn that off. That's my point is that people say, I've gotta wait till I can turn it off. I'm like, then you're gonna be 117 and that's when you're gonna start dating again, which I'm sure you're gonna be, you know, there's a great dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt, but at that point of the other 117 year olds, but no, you can't, you, otherwise you're forever, then you're living in, and you're still living in service to that relationship. And the whole idea is to no longer live in service, to your narcissistic relationship.

To the past relationship.

To the past relationship. So the trigger then becomes, to me, triggers are communication. Your nervous system saying, Whoa, something dangerous is happening. And you're kind of saying, I get it. I need to listen. This is new. Because when you think of what post-traumatic stress is, right? It's a programming. So if you use a classical example, I know a person got into an accident on a particular stretch of the freeway, right? So they avoid that road, right? And let's say then one day the Uber driver takes that road and their heart is racing because that's almost been sort of imprinted in. But you know what? You go down that road enough times, you don't let the racing heart say, I can't go on this road. Something terrible is going to happen. You say, okay, I'm going to tolerate this. Maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time. So you can't stop living. but you can also hear those triggers happening. And in the new relationship, give yourself permission to communicate, not say like, I'm being triggered and I think you're cheating on me. That might be a little heavy. And say, you know, I need a minute. In my past, X and Y happened. So at these moments, I know it just takes me a minute. Can you, it's hard for me. My trust was betrayed. So I'm going to need time. to build that trust. I always say that in some ways people coming out of narcissistic relationships are at an incredible advantage because if you can really be honest with yourself about saying, I'm going to ask for what I need and if this person ain't going to give it, then maybe this isn't my person and time is a big one. Narcissistic relationships are usually like this. Fast, fast, fast, right? Let's do this. We're in love. This is the best thing ever. Let's move in. Let's do this. Let's go to Paris for three years. Like whatever. kind of over-the-top stuff. But time is usually a way that people can build trust. You can see that there's a new way to respond. A loving, kind person will say, We're good. We're going to take this really, really slow if you need that. Because then that's telling you that this person's hearing you on one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do. And maybe because I'm older, I think and say these things. is that, you know, this, forgive me, this is going to sound so off color, but I'm just going to say it, is the, I call it the swiping test. I need you to look at this person, you know, everyone's young and beautiful and dating. I want you to fast forward to your 85 or maybe 90 and you've, you snapped a hip or something. This person going to wipe your and be loving about it. And if the answer is yes, it's probably a keeper. But if you think like this person's going to sneer or doesn't want to be in the hospital, No, not your person. And I know that but if you're really thinking you're going to go the distance with this person, are they going to stay up all night with a kid who has diarrhea? Are they going to wipe your... Are they going to be okay if when things are no longer okay? Because that's where narcissistic relationships fall apart when real life comes along. So, try that test. I'll tell you now, ain't no narcissist and we're going to wipe your... I promise you that right now.

Yeah, I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story or a love partner and a life life partner, right? Where it's like you could have romance and adventure and crazy sex with a love partner, right? But are they gonna be a great life partner for you during these times you're talking about?

Correct.

There's also kind of like the, someone else mentioned this, I can't remember who, the 10, 000 meal test. Do you want to have 10, 000 meals with this individual? If every other meal they're exhausting to be around and they're ungrateful and they're, gaslighting you or whatever they're doing. Do you want 10,000 of these?

I love that.

For the rest of your life. Can you imagine sitting down for 10,000 meals with this person? So, that's why I think 10,000 meals, life story, you know, all these things I think are great. But I feel like, I'll speak from example. I used to get caught up so much in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the early relationship moments, right? I used to think this is incredible, this fielding, this love, right? And then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to unwind and realize, well, what are we? Do we have the same values and are we in alignment of what life looks like together and our lifestyle? And then you try to, I tried to make it work, right? So it was always out of alignment from the start. And you mentioned something off camera about, you know, when we find someone who is quote unquote boring. That's a great sign.

Especially for people of histories of trauma.

Yes.

I mean, I think that for some folks, you know, it's the, again, the activation, the trauma bond, the sort of hot and cold is what equals love, that I need to earn love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill becomes equated with love. That's the love equals chaos kind of thing. So the person where it's kind of.

Like- It's not healthy love.

It's not. Flatness though, and I think I even hate the word boring where as much as it's not volatile. It's calm. Right, it's calm.

It's calm.

Run towards the calm. Calm is, those are what long-term relationships look like. But I think people, they want the chaos. They want, the chaos becomes, it's equal, it's not even that they want the chaos, it's that chaos equals love. They want love. And so it's a rewriting of that, love is stable.

Why do they, why do people, you know, I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this. Why do people feel loved or think it's love when there's explosiveness or there's chaos or there's someone screaming at you and then apologizing? And it's just this pattern. Why does that feel like love? Is that because we maybe saw this as a model as our childhood from our parents? Or why does that, why do some people feel that's love where others conceal, that's not healthy, I don't want that.

Well, I mean, part of it goes to this concept of trauma bonding, which is sort of the core of the narcissistic relationship. And in the trauma bond is formed by a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low. So in a way, you're sort of chasing a high because where there's a bad day, guess what's going to come again? Makeup sex or whatever makeup looks like, right? Because as a kid, what it was was that you'd live for those good days. despite all the abuse, then there'd be a fishing trip. Despite all those bad days, then your parent would do something, there'd be something so quirky and fun about them. Or you're like the day they do something good, now you could go back to constructing the narrative that I come from a normal, happy family. That is the origination of that trauma bond. But then in order to keep the mindset that the relationship's good, you have to justify, justify, justify. you have to make sense of those bad days to fit the good days. So the justification and the denial become big parts of the trauma bonded theme. Now obviously that trauma bond is going to play out a lot more powerfully in somebody who has that in their backstory because your entire childhood was wired around how can I get this parent to notice me? How can I be seen? How can I be heard? How can I be cherished? It's about a chase because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing they had to earn that, or even worse, their needs were shamed and their parent resented them for having needs. So they learned, well, if I'm going to be in love, gotta be quiet, can't bring up my needs. There's going to be bad days, but then there's going to be good days. And those bad days are because, well, maybe I was too demanding or, you know, maybe I'm expecting too much. So a lot of it becomes self-blame focused, and that becomes a really profound.

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It's not to say though, people who, not everybody who gets into a trauma bonded relationship has that history. They're by far the people who are going to be more vulnerable. But because narcissism is about such a good front game, right? The charm, the charisma, the love bombing, you feel like you're in something really, really special. But the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there's enough good days to confuse you. And the good days are good. Right. I mean, they're really, really good.

They're over the top.

Yeah, they're over the top. they sort of feel perfect and remember-.

You- try to go back to that, right?

And you go back to it but the thing we got to remember is sometimes those good days even stay in there years later. You know that it's whatever that moment is and narcissistic relationships are all about alignment. If they're having a good day, right? For whatever, maybe they had a good day at work or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym, you don't know what it is. Then- the narcissist. The narcissist. and you are having, happened to have a good day, something good happened to you and you're both, then you're like, they get me and they love me. No, it's just coincidence, a fortunate coincidence. And then, because the narcissist could just as easily have had a bad day, their car got dinged in the parking lot, their friend got the raise and the promotion and they didn't get it. Angry, angry, angry. You had that same good day, they will invalidate, they will criticize. So it's all about alignment and timing and that alignment is what makes people say, ah, we have such a great relationship. I'm like, it just sounds like we're connected. We have great chemistry. Yeah, it's like you thinking like roulette can be gamed. I'm like, you got lucky on the double zero there.

It's so funny you say that. I mean, I'm gonna start having flashbacks now in memories, like I did in the last interview, where I remember a time for a few years, I had this dream of going to the Olympics. And making the USA-- first it was making the USA national team. So I had the opportunity to go to the Olympics.

Oh, when you said go to the Olympics, I'm like, to watch. So you see your dreams are up here.

This was 2008. 2008, I watched, I just got in a surgery playing professional football, broke my wrist, had a cast on my arm from here to here for six months in this position, just got it off, and the Olympics came on. And so I was kind of down in the dumps because I couldn't train, I couldn't play football anymore. but I was watching Olympics getting inspired and I see this sport at like 3 a.m. in the morning that I'd never seen before in my life called Team Handball. Oh yeah. It's not well known in the US but it's a big sport in Europe. It's kind of like water polo on land. On land, yes. With no water. And I watch this and my mind is blown. I'm like, this is incredible. This looks like the sport I should have learned growing up. Like I'm built for this. I'm the size, I got the speed. like, this is my game. And it gave me this opening into a new possibility in my life. Like, let me research this. Maybe there's a USA team. Maybe I could make the team. Maybe we could qualify for the Olympics. This is what happened in about 10 minutes of watching this sport in 2008. 2000. 10 rolls around. I moved to New York City to play for a team. on Team Handball, the top team in the country. New York City's got the best team in the USA for the club teams. I moved there to literally to go learn this sport for a year. I meet a girl and this girl we have this chemistry, this connection, all these things in the first month or whatever, right? But then I start to see the signs later, but I wasn't aware of it. and she knew that this was a part of my dream. And I've been training this whole year for this chance to make the USA National Team. They'd select 16 Americans, the whole population, to be on the USA National Team. I've been planning this for two years, training for a year, moved to a new state, new city to practice every week. I get an email and I'm with the person I was with at the time. I get an email that says, you've been selected to the USA National Team.

Congratulations.

I'm kind of excited. I get it. Because I was thinking about it, right? Like, this was something the email was waiting for. You've been selected. You're going to the Pan American Championships with the national team to compete for our country. And I'm reading this. I'm literally, like, so vulnerable and in tears, like, thinking about this when I'm reading it. And I was with her. She was in the other room, and I take it to her. I'm like, you're not gonna believe what happened. Look at this email. I'm like so excited. And right away she goes, Man, I wish my career was doing better right now. There was no congratulations. There was no, it was like, God, I wish she went to a depression, kind of. Yeah, yeah.

It was like a depression of like.

Oh gosh, I wish I could do this with my career. I wish this was happening. And, and so I put my attention on her to make sure she was okay. When I'm like, I've been dreaming about this for two years, but I'm busting my ass like, telling you about this in my mind, but I was like, well, let me just make sure her needs are met in this moment and I'll get back to celebrating me one day. And it wasn't even an acknowledgement of like, congratulations, right? Anyways, this happened multiple times in many relationships, similar situations like that, which I didn't even know that was a sign, right?

I was just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't know until I talked to you whenever this was six months ago or something. but how, you know, let me remember where I was going with this, but just, I think like the good days, it's like they had a good day.

Talking about alignment.

Right, so if they have a bad day and you have a good day, they're gonna kind of try to take you down, is what you said, right?

And your story is so interesting too, because who knows if she was having a bad day or not, but your good news is always a threat to a narcissistic person.

Why is that?

Always. So, you know, it's funny, why is that? Because it, remember, At the core of it, narcissism is about insecurity. Deep, deep insecurity. We always think of these people as having really big self-esteem. They have what I can only call inaccurate self-esteem. They have this sort of falsely grandiose vision of themselves, but at this unprocessed, deep, unconscious level, it's not like they walk around thinking, I'm really insecure, so I better be grandiose. The insecurity is unprocessed. They're not even aware of it. They're not even aware of it. It's almost like this nagging thing that's always in the background. So anything that activates that sense, like it's almost like it starts to percolate up out of the groundwater. That's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you were up against, sullenness, resentment, sometimes overt aggression, because they're trying to protect themselves against the threat that this insecurity will pop up. that's the dance, right? So when I've worked with folks who are in narcissistic relationships, listen, people who have been married a long time or in long-term relationships or have kids, it's not so easy to say just break up and follow your bliss. It just doesn't work that way. And so I'd say, okay, I'm gonna have to give you some strategies to stay in this. And I always call it the good, bad, indifferent rule. Never, ever share, never, ever let the narcissistic person be the first person you share your good news with. Never. You should have called your bestest person at that point.

Who's gonna celebrate you?

Who would have been like, oh my gosh, we all got him, right? Like the good thing happens and you're like, I gotta tell this person. And they're like, oh my gosh, 20 bottles of champagne, we're having a party. That's who you tell first. Then you got your other people who are gonna be happy for you. And then and only then do you tell the narcissistic person. Because at that point, you felt that your good news was held and cherished and celebrated and you just feel happy. You shared it with people who are able to mirror it back to you, that feeling of goodness. That's what parenting is about by the way. Your kid says, Look, Mommy, I got an A on my exam. Honey, that's so great. Not like, I'm too busy to deal with that right now. And that's what kids who have narcissistic parents get a lot of like, I.

Don'T have time for that right now.

-Right.

-Success is never enough.

It's never enough. -Yes, it's never enough. What else do I need to do to get the attention? But in adulthood, that mirroring matters. And then once you do that and you roll up to the narcissistic person, like, I wish my life was like that. In some ways, you've been so buoyed that it'd be like, you know what? Like, you don't even, some people are like, whatever. You know, like, I hope it is too. I hope that works out for you. You feel good, you feel seen. And that's the good, the bad, same thing. Never go to a narcissistic person first with your bad stuff.

What happens when you share bad stuff?

They'll either feel inconvenienced, frustrated. What do you want me to do about this? Oh, my gosh. Like, oh, I'm under. I have so many things are being asked of me. They go into their victim thing. Yeah, you figure it out. Yeah, you figure it out. Like how. And you feel, let's say it's, like, really bad news. Like, I found out my mom is really sick, or I, you know, it turns out they're going to be downsizing my division, and I'm probably going to be in that first round of layoffs or whatever it is. You know, you find out your friend is ill or you're ill or something. more often than not, the narcissistic person, it's almost like they don't want to hear that there's, like, real stuff that happens in the world that has nothing to do with them. Your mother being sick has nothing to do with them, so they're really not that interested. And that you might interrupt them and bring some, like, negative Juju into their life. They don't want that. So I always say to people, have your people to take your bad news to so people can offer empathy, compassion, emotional support. practical support and only as an afterthought will you say, because now you've been held, you've been supported, you might have the strength to say at some point, like, yeah, my mom's sick and they're going to have whatever foolish, you know, unempathic response they have, but now you've been supported. So that takes us to the indifferent. I'm going to tell everyone in a narcissistic relationship, keep it in your phone, make a little list of completely vacuous topics, the weather, They're building a new house across the way. Can you believe that new grocery store is coming into town? Go back to the weather. You avoid anything that's a third rail, that's a sensitive issue, or where their negativity could hurt you. So then you can kind of keep the trains running on time. Like, can you believe this heat? It's great. I live out in the San Fernando Valley, so I always say, can you believe this heat? Every, in fact, all the narcissistic people out there are going to know now, I think they're narcissistic because that's how I always start the conversation. Can you believe this heat?

But because there's nothing else to say. So what do you say with the narcissist then? What can you talk about? You're like you've taken out almost everything you've been talking about. But if you live with someone and.

You have kids with them and you have to interact. Procedural stuff. And I think that what happens is people want a real partner. They want someone to share stuff with them. Like you don't, you're never going to have that here. Within our society. You're never going to have it, so give it up. So you're just going to have to recognize it might be things like who's taking him to soccer today? And if they say, I'm too busy to take him to soccer, realistic expectations, of course they're too busy. Say, piece of cake, I got it. I always tell folks if you're in a narcissistic relationship, you need to plan.

A, B, C, and D because they are always going to let you down. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you mentioned a little bit moment ago about there are certain situations where you're not going to be able to get out of a relationship and follow your bliss. Yeah, no, you can't. But is there a world where you could at some point, as opposed to saying, I've got to live in the next 30 years with this person or 10 years with this person, that sounds like a free prison sentence. You're in the free world, but you're living a prison inside in your own home. That doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

It's not. Because I work with such varied audiences, I'm very, very mindful of how painful it is for people to say, if you don't go then. Now, I've said to them, if you don't go, there's limits to how far I can take you on this growth process because you're still constantly having this echoing voice that invalidates you and reminds you of that invalidation in the next room. So there's only but, there's only so much, but there's still a lot of growth. I mean, your life almost becomes a series of silent acts of rebellion. You know, some people literally, I know some folks told me, you know what? I was inspired by what you said. So I just went to an online university and I got my degree and I never told him. Wow.

And I was like, that's inner victories. Yeah, inner like that's a triumph. It's like everything's a little game for.

Yourself to like find your own joy. Correct. And they, or they volunteer in their community and what they recognize is that the volunteering was joyful. The narcissist would say to them, why would you want to help a bunch of people who are too stupid to help themselves? They, if anything, they'll say their horrible negativity only reinforces that I'm totally right about them. I'm not wrong about this. I'm not a bad person for recognizing that they're toxic, and I can go out and do something that fills my soul. But you're right, it's only a partial victory. But if you can get out, get out. Right.

Okay. So let me ask you this. So again, I know there are certain cultures and situations and countries that probably have harder restrictions of removing yourself. So, but it, okay, so let's figure this out. It's gonna be painful to stay in the marriage if there's with the narcissistic person. It's gonna be extremely painful to leave for potentially years where you might have to find a whole new community, move, you know, build friendships and relationships again, be on your own, all that stuff. But if there's light at the end of the tunnel when you leave, you know, three, five, seven years out, as opposed to being in the relationship for that time. Is that the better solution?

You know, I don't, I think that here, and it's so hard to say because if you, somebody said to me, tell me the best solution, take away all the contextual factors. It's obviously not to be in such a relationship. When we talk about how people manage themselves in these relationships, there's all these forms of contact you can have. And the most extreme is no contact, which means done. You block them, you cut them out, you don't speak to them, you don't take their calls, nada, nothing. And you know what? There's places, I've actually seen the hard data on this, everyone will say, no contact, awesome. Like I feel so much better now that they no longer exist in my life. But it's a really limited strategy. If it's your family member, if it's someone you co-parent with, It's somebody you might still have professional contact with. So that's such an extreme that it might work like somebody, let's say someone dated someone and you don't have a ton of mutual friends and you move away physically, no contact can happen. And let me tell you, I've done no contact. Whew, it's good. Okay.

Yeah.

Then there's low contact. Now low contact can be done in a couple of different ways, but it tends to be, you know, what I'd say more perfunctory. you don't really engage with them. It's just really like, just sort of, let's say it's a family member, you've decided like, okay, this person's so bad for me, I want nothing to do with them, but your beloved cousin's getting married. You may just say to beloved cousin, just whatever the opposite side of the room preceding me is, I'd appreciate it. Maybe they come and talk to you and you give them very simple yes, no, kids are great responses. You go to the bathroom a lot when they approach you. People are going to think you some sort of digestive problem, but it's a great out, but you step away and if it gets to be too much, you give yourself permission to leave. So it is, you know, low contact doesn't mean like they come to you and you don't speak to them. You might say, oh, hi, yeah, mm-, kids are great, yeah, mm-, it's been a long time. Yeah, I actually got to run to the restroom. It's one of those. And so, or I got, I got to run, I've got to call or whatever. So you find your ways to maintain, and then you won't have contact with them maybe for 10 more years until there's another wedding or funeral something like that. So that's more of the low contact. And then there's all these techniques like gray rock and yellow rock, all these techniques to figure out ways to communicate. But the tool I give people, and I think maybe I talked about this last time, I don't remember, but it's something I call don't go deep with them, which means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize. And it's a mantra, like don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

What happens if you do any of those?

If you defend, you're going to get in the mud with them and they like it and you get dirty. So that doesn't make sense. So you don't want, if you defend, it's just going to escalate and gaslight and fight and, and there's no point because you're not going to end in any kind of sane, rational place. When you explain, they will definitely gaslight you. So there's no point to that. Engaging means don't get into a conversation with them. Do not ask them what they think of something. Do not tell them that good news and don't personalize. this isn't about you. They do this to anyone in your position. They're going to manipulate. It's what they do. And so they're going to lie, they're going to gaslight. It's just how their personalities are organized. It's not about you. There's nothing you can do to change this. Not you, not me, not anybody. And so that's the, it's a really fun, then that's what we call radical acceptance and nothing you can do. It ain't gonna change and that's not because... and a lot of people say, well, it's not gonna change because I'm not enough. It's not gonna change because it's not gonna change.

No one's ever enough for them. So, okay, let me ask you a practical question. There's different stages of being in a relationship, right? You meet someone, you go on a date with them. That's a certain stage of a relationship. You date for weeks, months, however long before you say, We're gonna be committed or exclusive with each other, right? Then there's a, you know, a marriage commitment and that type of relationship. What would be in your mind, the key things that an individual would should really focus on seeing or experiencing from the person that they want to date before they say, I want to get committed and exclusive with you, not before marriage, but just, okay, I feel comfortable enough to be an exclusive committed relationship with what are those key things you would need to see or experience to make sure you feel comfortable taking that step?

Watch how they respond to stress or frustration. If you only had one thing you can do, it's that. Because that's the test, right? Do they start, do they become really dysregulated, impulsive, say really awful things and then, you know, I was just really stressed out. you know, because if they did it, they're always going to do that because they're on their best behavior in this early dating relationship.

They'll do it worse in the future.

How are they handling themselves in a, in a traffic jam? How do they handle themselves when you get to the restaurant and they say, oh, we've lost your reservation, you know, because you really are looking for the person who says, you know what? You up for a fast food? Because there's a place across the street. And you know what? It could be the dinner where you fall in love with that person over your, you know, over your cheeseburger. Yeah, exactly. And so, but if that person makes a, do you know who I am? Oh, let me tell you, Yelp review, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna be sorry, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, and I think those situations manifest pretty early on. And the trick is because everything else is sort of new and sparkly and fun, people want to say, oh, they just had a bad day.

They have bad days all the time.

I would say that's your, especially that early in the game, that's your first few months. A runaway kind of like, kind of, or not even runaway to say, eh, just sort of slowly start distancing. Some people need to see two of those events. Okay. So great. There's your, you'll get your second soon enough. And so I would say that's a really, that's a big one. I think other things you want to look at are things like are around, equity, equitability and balance in the relationship. How often are you knocking yourself out for them? So in other words, you're shaping your schedule to them, you're shaping your preferences to them, you're giving up things for them, and yet they still make it sound like you give up maybe, I don't know, you're invited to a old friend's birthday party, it's gonna be a girls night out, and they doubt your commitment like, oh, really it's your friends instead of me. and then you end up canceling on the friends and you go out with them and they'll say, isn't this so much more fun? So they make it seem like your sacrifice was actually good for you. That's something else you could say early in the game. Especially narcissistic people do tend to like to control the narrative. So there will be some isolating happening. If you feel that you're not, you don't feel comfortable saying, I'm gonna go see my friends, this is a, I want to spend time alone with my sister or something like that. And they pathologize that, especially when it's early. This is sort of a process for you. And if they're trying to annex all of your time, that's a sign too that you need to pay attention to.

If they're trying to take you from your friends and family.

But sometimes it's not even that obvious. It's more of a, why am I, why can't I come? Or they doubt your commitment. And so it's not as like, you're not seeing your friends. It's, you know, you spend a lot of time with your friends. Like, you know, maybe this just isn't the right time in your life for a relationship. I get that. I got that. So they play that game. And then you're thinking, oh, I'm kind of really into this person. But I'm angry at you. No, they doubt your commitment. And because people want to prove their commitment, right? And they know I'm really committed to this. Okay, you know, it just, I find it interesting that on a Saturday night, that's what you chose. Even though you've told them weeks ago, and then you give in.

So look out for those two things. It's interesting because every time you say something like this, I'm reminded of the past of like, okay, all these stressful situations, but with Martha, I talk a lot about Martha on the show because she's been amazing for me, but with Martha, we had an experience where we went on a trip within the first month of kind of knowing each other and dating. And we were supposed to go to Vegas and we had flights booked but for whatever reason, all the flights that day got cancelled and we couldn't get there for the event. We were going to see an event until the next morning on the flight and we were gonna miss it. And so I'm coming to her kind of bringing a little bit of this PTSD remnants of like, hope she's gonna be okay, is she gonna be upset? The flight's this, and I bring in and say, hey, the flights are not, you know, happening. We could try to take a later flight, but we may not make it in time for the event. What do you want to do? Let's just drive.

Yeah, I was gonna say, if this girl's got it going on, she would always drive.

Oh, it's no worries. Like, let's just drive.

Yeah.

Where I'm so used to people being like, well, I need first class and I needed this, and, you know, this kind of, like, don't you know who I am type of mentality. She was Let's just, you wanna drive? Kind of like fun with it? And I was like, you sure you're okay with that? And she was like, yeah, let's go. And I was like, cool, let's jump. So we jumped, we just grabbed our bags, we packed, we went in and we drove, and it had the most incredible five hour drive. There was traffic and it was on a Friday night and it was like, whatever, stressful, but we had so much fun. I was like, this girl's got something. Yeah.

You know? She's got something going on. And it's, and I think when you travel with someone, you can see these stressful experiences. Yes, yes, I do agree that if you travel with someone, you can see a lot, and that's what I'm saying. that stress can come out there too. But I do think it's almost a way to create a living lab and set up a trip in the first three months of the relationship. It doesn't have to be elaborate. It could be something as quick as a weekend getaway. It could be a weekend trip. It doesn't have to be like two weeks somewhere. Watch how they do. Because I will tell you, that's the test. Somebody who can be chill while they travel, done. That's one of, it's almost like a final exam. Really, before you get committed. Before you exclusively commit. And again, for people to know, this doesn't mean you have to air tickets and this, it could really be like a road trip, it could be a camping trip, it could be any number of things but like a few days where it's really just you and them and there's because when you travel inevitably it's something, right? And to watch how you manage that, it's a great test because if it's a narcissistic person, if everything isn't just so perfect and the thing is you got to watch how they try to gaslight it away If you start getting a little leery on, this is not okay, they're going to make it into, Don't you understand? I wanted to make it perfect for you. Okay? I just wanted it to be a great trip. You know, and so, because if you might be pushing back and saying, you know, the way you were acting under stressor, I just was trying to make it right for you, and now you're feeling so guilty because they were trying to make it right for you. So, I will tell folks this. If you're noticing there's some of those early patterns, and you decide to distance from this relationship because it feels like there's some red flags, don't tell them the why.

Really?

Yeah, this ain't you. You ain't their teacher, their life coach. You're trying to get out of this relationship because if you tell them the why, they're gonna gaslight you.

They're gonna say, well, I was stressed.

I was trying to do something nice for you. You're being unappreciative. You're unappreciative. Exactly. You're sensing a red flag. you can make it about yourself and say, yeah, you know, whatever your reasons are, I think work's getting to be a lot for me, or maybe this isn't the right time for me to have a relationship. And people say, well, Dr. Romani, isn't that a missed opportunity? No, they ain't listening to you. So, it really, if you say to them, this is why it'll be Gaslight City and you're going to stay in it, because I think people feel like, well, I need to tell them and maybe they'll improve. They're not going to improve. That's the radical exercise.

What about if someone feels just stuck in a relationship? Maybe there's narcissistic tendencies, maybe not, but they feel stuck in a relationship. What's a good conversation that someone should have with their partner to evaluate where it's at and how they can get unstuck? Whether there's narcissism or not, what's your opinions on that?

It's a different scenario, right? Because I think in a narcissistic relationship, you're working for survival, right? So you may not even, I have to tell you, people in narcissistic relationships may not initially feel stuck. They may be like, okay, it's like the MacGyver of relationship situations. Like, what kind of duct tape do.

I need to use to fix this thing? Right?

So you're doing, doing, doing. Where people feel stuck in a narcissistic relationship is when they get into too deep, share a place, kids, marriage. That's where the stuckness happens. Because I think by and large, and then honestly, there's one big interesting thing with narcissistic relationships is the fear that the narcissist is going to change for the next person. Because there's a lot of stuff they like about that person. They're really attracted to them. They have great sex with them. They're charismatic. They have shared interests. People love them. They've got a really amazing career, job, status, whatever, whatever it may be, there's a lot of magnetic qualities. And so that idea that the new person is going to get, you know, Mr. Magnetic is actually really overwhelming. But in a sense of stuckness, it's an interesting issue. And it's something I've encountered even with couples I've done therapy with. And it's, you know, listen, there is the, you know, there's sort of the, kind of the standard advice around like, how do you start dating again in this relationship? How do you keep that piece of it alive? How do you keep giving it some level of priority status? How do you make sure you do communicate, make the time? Part of that is, I mean, mindfulness has such an important role in human relationships, not just intimate relationships, all relationships. Everybody's talking about mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness. It means paying attention to what's in front of you. And that means that it can be the littlest things about, oh my gosh, that's right. He had an appointment. He had a meeting at two. You text him at three, like, Hey, how did that meeting go? I was just thinking of you. That stuff becomes the stuff of the relationship. And then saying, Hey, you had a tough one today. Let's cook this, go here, pop the champagne. that idea that someone's noticing you. So mindfulness can be one piece of the stuckness. The other is, do you have shared vision? I mean, we talk about this in the workplace all the time, but is that there? And that doesn't even mean there's something wrong with someone if they don't have shared vision. But sometimes if you don't have that, that can contribute to the stuckness because you're not working towards a common goal. Right? If you have a company and one person's like, I want to sell lots of hand lotion, and the other person's like, I really envision us as being a salsa company, you're gonna be stuck. Right, right, right. Right? Someone's chopping tomatoes, someone's like putting on all this lotion, so you're gonna be stuck. So it's the salsa hand lotion of it all. Like one of you may be wanting to work towards family and children, the other one wants to travel the world, both people are afraid to talk about it. And so, how do you get unstuck? You actually go to the edge of the cliff and recognize that if you open up and they go, because that's the fear, that fear of abandonment, that fear of being alone, that fear of loss, that if you can go to the edge of the cliff and say, this is actually what I want and can tolerate that early in the game, especially if you don't have stuff like kids and commitments and all of that, where you spoke in your truth and they can say, that's not what I want and not personalize it. Because as kids, it's almost like the equivalent of bringing our picture to our parents and say, Look what I drew and the parent not caring. Or even worse, the parent saying, you,'re not my kid anymore because that's a bad job.

Oh my God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the idea that we could bring our truth to someone and they'd say, Yeah, no, that's not what I want. It starts becoming the sunk cost fallacy, which kills most relationships. That's the idea of, I've already put all this resource into something. That's how people get stuck, is the sunk cost fallacy. And you've got to remember, behavioral economics often does have some of these answers. You've already put the money in, you've got a human experience, don't put more into this. And so then you have the conversation. And I've actually seen some people have beautiful ends to their relationship where they say, I still have this, I'm not ready for X or Y. I don't want to do X or Y. That's not the direction I want to go in. And they managed to salvage friendships and genuine curiosity in each other. And then that's that. But it's scary.

It takes a lot of courage for someone to end a relationship. No matter what type of, you know.

And I wouldn't even say it's ended. I think It takes a lot of courage to speak your truth in a relationship. It's not even the ending. It's saying, what I want in this relationship is I want us to set, I want to have kids. I want to live, I want to move out of the city. I want to put our focus there. And the other person might say, I don't want those things. And that's when you say, okay, then we're on very different paths. But it's so easy for me to sit here in a studio and intellectually say this, I'm, let's say I'm a 39 year old woman. That's not the, what then? What then? Yeah. You know, now you're thinking, oh my God, I want a child. This is, this is what's in front of me. But I'm good. Then they start doing the math.

I'm gonna meet, how many years?

Now I'm 42.

I want to find someone. Is there someone better than this? Yeah, all these things.

And it's not even like, or not even better as much as somebody who's more on my path. This is how it happens because We do forget that there is a sort of a biological piece to all of this. I mean reproductive technology is changing that and some women out there and women close to me have said, you know what, I want the kid, I'm not so sure I want the relationship and should I fall in love with someone, I don't want to fight with them over custody. So women are having their own children without a partner and saying, now motherhood's out of the game, it's actually easier to date. And now I'm going to meet a man either he wants a woman with a child or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he's not my guy. But I'll never have to fight this guy for custody of this kid. It's a new world and people who are making allowances for not wanting to get stuck in toxic relationships are going different path. And I know men who have done that too. Men who have gotten surrogates and said, I want to be a father. They look, they find a, they find this, I'm going to get donor eggs. They get donor eggs. and they find surrogates and they're like, I want to be a being a father to me was foremost. If I meet and fall in love with someone super, but I want to be a father. It's not cheap, though. So these are very privileged folks who can do this. But the fact is that there are paths forward in a way. And I think that the amount of damage, Louis, that people being raised in toxic relationships, having to witness toxic relationships, maybe one of the biggest psychological crises that most people bring into adulthood.

So I think making sense of how we were raised, and not breaking the cycle. We have crappy blueprints. Very crappy. I have this, I don't know if I want to call it a formula, but just some steps that I've been developing through my own healing journey and reflection of previous relationships and now being in a very, I would call conscious, healthy relationship. I would love for you to either pick apart or validate or add to or whatever you want to these kind of steps that I've been putting together myself that I think have helped me in this transition towards what to create when stepping into a new relationship. The first one is for a conscious, healthy relationship. The first one is you working on your healing journey before you get into it. Or if you're into it, start it while you start the relationship, being in a healthy, focusing on a whole healthy body, mind, spirit and soul, healing the past and being on that journey. Step one. Without that, I feel like it's not a strong foundation, right? Because you're going to be more susceptible. Step two is, I don't know if this, for me, feel free to pick a hole at this. Step two would be to do the love language test with the person you're dating. and to see if you're in alignment with the way you receive and give love naturally. I think in previous relationships, for whatever reason, I chose women that didn't receive the love that I naturally gave. They liked acts of service and gifts. I was like, I don't care about giving someone a gift because it doesn't, it's not value for me. I like praising someone and touching someone.

Words of affirmation.

Yeah. And touching them and giving affection and telling them how much, you know, appreciate them, like, but they wanted a gift to feel loved because that was their blueprint. So I was always doing something that was more work for someone to feel loved. And in the current relationship, we have, like, identical love languages in order. So we both naturally show up who we are and feel loved by that person. So it's just less friction. I don't have to think, I need to buy a gift or I need to do this every week.

Right.

But I normally wouldn't want that you do. That's number two. Number three, four and five is getting clear with your honest truth about your values, your vision and your lifestyle. Kind of like what you were saying. Like if your values are out of alignment, it's going to be challenging. If your vision is, you know, I want to make hot sauce and you want to make shoes, we have a different shared vision of our relationship. And if you want to live in the city and I want to live in the country with the lifestyle, there's going to be some friction there. Number six, for me, this was a non-negotiable entering this current relationship. Maybe this is too tough, but for me, I was like, we need to enter a relationship in therapy. And start the relationship in therapy so that we can communicate in a conscious way with a third party about agreements. There's going to be things that come up, there's no perfect relationship, you're going to have a different lifestyle, this and this, but can we create agreements together so there's alignment on our communication, our agreements to just minimize some friction, not have expectations, but get clear on agreements and a standard we both have. And then with that, going through those first six things, choosing to fully accept the person for who they are, once you've gotten clear on all these things over a period of time, saying, okay, I'm not I'm expecting you to change into a potential in the future. But do I accept who you are from your values, your vision, your lifestyle, your healing journey. We're doing therapy together. Can I accept this person? My girlfriend, she's an actress, so she does movies. She's on set. She's kissed guys on movies in the past, and maybe she will in the future. I had to be like, do I.

Accept this is who she is?

Or am I gonna need to change her and say, you can't do this anymore?

Correct.

So I said I fully accept you, you know, and this process has been very powerful for us. I'm sure from my personal experience, what's worked for me. Is there anything that you would poke a hole in or add or remove from these kind of seven things that I've been, you know, kind of playing with myself?

So it's almost like I'd make a step zero.

Okay, give it to me.

And a step zero is addressing legacy issues and your own traumas and all of that. Right? Because the word healing is so ephemeral and it's so sort of non-specific. But when I think of hundreds, probably not thousands of people whose narcissistic abuse in intimate relationship stories I've heard, it was a-- they went into the relationship-- and actually, I take that back because some folks enter this relationship confident as can be. It's not like they entered in in deficit territory. But it was for a lot of people, for many people, their own backstories shaped what they thought they even deserved in a relationship. And I will tell you this in that part of that step zero is how do you reconcile yourself with societal messages? You had said something earlier that made me think about this too, which is this idea of the romance and how we view relationships early on. We're very programmed. Whether we like to think that we are or we're not, we can, you know, everyone brings up the Disney movies, but it's beyond Disney movies. It's about what a love story is supposed to look like, what a, at least a heteronormative relationship is supposed to look like. You know, we have these, and this is where we get this idea of a gift. Like, what do you, how many people say, you mean he didn't give you anything for Valentine's Day? And I've had to say that, and I'm in a relationship, I said, if He brought home something home for Valentine's Day. I would slap that man silly because, I think, what are you wasting your money for fool? But the day after the candy's off 50%, so you're welcome to go to CVS and grab me a box, honey. So it's- Because your value was something different. Right, yeah. And so it's that, but beyond that is that we get this message of what it's supposed to be. And when it's not that, we think, well, there's got to be something wrong with me. And so I do think that it's a, it's, there's some, there's some pushing back on existing sort of societal messaging. There is being aware of one's own legacy issues. What are you trying to work through? One's own history of trauma and those kinds of adverse experiences from early in life. To me, those are sort of like the step zero before the step one.

So being aware of those things, talking to your partner about them or just.

I know, I think that's the word. Step zero is almost it's almost like before you ever met any partner.

And part of me is thinking, you know, the healing journey is being aware of those things, addressing them, you know, reflecting on them, and then starting to integrate it, some type of therapeutic healing process.

And then I think that the other thing I'd say is the going back to that societal message is the abyss of it all. I think a lot of people would hear a list like that and be like, homie, you're high. Like, if I do this, I am.

Going to be alone for the rest.

Of my damn life.

But I was willing to do that. You were. Because I felt so much suffering inside from the pain. I was like, I'd rather be alone with a cat and dog.

Correct.

Be peaceful.

Right.

Than be in a relationship where I have to, you know, give up who I am every day and walk on eggshells.

But that means that people have to understand that giving up who I am means that they value the who I am, that that's actually something to give up. And I think that what, what I'll. I wish this happened in school. I wish that a significant part of the curriculum was on who am I? What am I about? What do I stand for? What matters to me? What are my values? I got a text from my daughter two days ago. She's in college right now, still trying to figure out her major. And she texts me and she's like, Mom, I've decided I'm going to pursue a career in the arts. And I text back like, that is absolutely magnificent. And she texts me back, said, no mother ever. Do you realize that I'm probably never gonna have a lot of money? I said, Girl, I've been broke since I was 15. So I said, and I wasn't happy. So I said, if you wake up every day excited about what you do, you're good. And so what my daughter was doing was she was unfurling herself in front of me. Now inside, am I thinking like, you know, rice and beans and- You wanna have a studio apartment? You wanna have a studio apartment? Okay, yeah, you could do that. You could do that. That's all. But you know what? If you're doing what you love, that rice and beans in that studio apartment is gonna be A-OK. It's gonna feel like a filet mignon, you know? It's just loved. You know that this is not like, how dare you take this expensive education to say, you are loved and I want you to be you and I want you to find your path. You know, that's definitely not how I was parented, you know, and that's not how a lot of people were raised. You're loved if you do what we.

Tell you to do.

You're loved if the word doctor is in front of your name. They're like, I don't care what damn way you get to that. You're gonna be a doctor.

Here's the funny thing, you, the doctor is in front of your name. Do you feel loved or did you.

Feel loved after you got that accomplishment? No, and I think I became the wrong kind of doctor. I think they had the whole MD thing in mind. But you know, I also understood where they came from as immigrants in the generation that came, they really did believe they said no one in this country is going to take you seriously, you know, when they look at your face. So they said at least with the doctor you're going to get a little respect when they say your name. So I'm like, okay, I could work with that. But the fact is I did think like, oh they're going to love me more if I do this. No, they had their own story. But I think that for, and then I'm bringing in my daughter is like, she's trying to figure out who she is. Who are you? What do you stand for? And that idea, what are your personal values? Like, I do leadership training with folks and they actually take a values deck of cards and you realize, like, whereas you're, if you and I did that exercise, we should do that one. We should have that episode. I should bring in my values. Bring them in. Let's do that. Okay. For sure. I'm gonna bring them in and we're both gonna do it. and then I think you put your top 15 and you take a look at them, right? And so ours are gonna be completely different. And yet I adore you, you're a friend of mine, all of that, but we'll have very, and you know what? I'm gonna get your own deck, take it home, do it with Martha.

Well, it's funny you say that because before we got committed, and maybe you think I'm high because these things were like important for me because I was like, I'd rather scare her away. from being intentional about my communication and my values and my vision and who I am or what I want to create in this world, then attract someone on a false foundation.

So, I want to push back on your language there. I want to scare her away. How interesting that you still- I don't.

Scare her away, but make sure that we're the right match.

Right, but language matters. I'm gonna scare her away. The real Louis is scary is sort of that and that- Right, right, right. You know, there's a certain ingrained assumption that if I'm me, that is going to scare her rather than simply I'm going to show her the real me.

True.

And let's see if that's a fit. So I hear some unconscious bias within you.

-I like that. I like that. I'll start correcting myself. That's good. So I wanted to share her with the real me and be honest about all these things that I wanted to create in my life unapologetically. Let's say that. I want to be unapologetic about what I wanted to create. And so before we got together, you know, got into a committed exclusive, you know, dating experience, we had. We had had an amazing few months already, like, so many trips and things, and it was just, like, peaceful.

Right.

And so I took her to Sedona, and I took her up a. A vortex, right? Like, this kind of little mountain. Vortex in Sedona. And I had a workbook for us, a journal. And I gave it to her, I put some music on and I said, Listen, I want to do a values exercise with you.

Good for you.

So it's kind of like the value deck, but I said, I want you, I put some music on, some gentle music. We're up, the sun is setting. We're on this energy vortex. I said, I want you to be so honest and authentic with what your core values are. And RIS is lists as many things that are part of your values. in your life, you know, and I take five, ten minutes, right? I'm not gonna look at it. I'm not gonna, you know, you do your thing. I do that. She writes it. I then I, I said, give me a blank piece of paper, and I take it and I do the same exercise. And I said, now I want us to look at them side by side without a bias, without me seeing it first and then me writing down the same things, because I want you to think I have the same values. Are we in alignment? Is there alignment? Not perfection, is there alignment? Sure. And 80% of the things we wrote down were the same.

Right.

And the 20% that was different, it was like, okay, cool. That's nothing against that here and nothing against here. And it felt just more organic, right? It felt because we were honest about it.

Right.

I don't think there were many relations in the past where I talked about values and vision and lifestyle until it was too late.

Correct.

When we're breaking down and it's like there's frustration and we're like, what are we doing? Right. But we've already chemically bonded and we've already like gotten deeper into a commitment. And you're like, well, we just lacked the, I guess, emotional courage or intelligence.

To have those conversations early. And I just don't think a lot of people live their lives from that examine standpoint. Like, what are my values? What do I stand for? You people like, what do you mean, what do I stand for? I can't afford gas, you know? And so that, and I understand that, right? I'm surviving. You surviving, but there are certain things you that you're willing to fight, really, really fight for and be and that you actually do need. You're like, for some people, for example, spirituality may really matter. You cannot minimize that. And if a person for whom spirituality matters enters into a relationship for someone who doesn't, it's not an indictment of either of them, but that may not be a language they can use with each other, which might leave both of them frustrated. But there's, there's some things that you're not going to fully map on to someone else. Someone may say, I'm very comfortable with your spiritual world. I'm simply not going to participate in it. And then that will work. And they'll say, I can see how joyful it makes you. But what the struggle here though, the main sort of pushback I'm going to have on your list is your list is predicated on two healthy people.

That's why step one is both need to be healing. Yeah. And so- and both need to be in a therapeutic journey together. That's why for me, if one person is working on their healing journey and doing some type of therapy consistently with accountability and emotional intelligence and integrating that process, and the other is not, I feel like it's going to be challenging. That's why it's going to be impossible. That's why I said enter the relationship in therapy, which again, this is maybe.

Hard for people to do. I think it's great to enter a relationship in therapy. It's just not a typical third date activity. Hey! I get it.

Instead of going out for drinks, you.

Want to come to therapy.

After a few months.

But even still, I think that there's some, there's some, there's a business for me to open, like third date therapy. But here's the thing.

What's the alternative? Getting in a relationship where 50%, you know, get, go through divorce within however many years. And then, and then those that stay together more unhappy, and then you're suffering and you're feeling trapped and you feel stuck. And it seems like very few in their first marriage make you know, create a peaceful, thriving life with, you know, challenges and bumps along the way, but it just seems like it's rare. And so if you want that, if you want a healthy, thriving, long-term committed relationship, not perfect, but a healthy one, I mean, I feel like it's rare. You got to do the extreme or the different things that people have never done. I don't know.

Right. But you also have to value yourself. And that's the work, right? Is for a person to be able to say, I am valuable. And if a person can get there, all relationships in some ways have a fighting chance, not toxic ones, but because they do value themselves. So they're willing to set a boundary. They're willing to extract from unhealthy situations. They're mindful and aware of what another person, you know, they're self-aware. They're able to and also aware of another person. and can make judgments and statements and all of that about the, you know, in an informed, aware manner. And then above all else, they have empathy, right? And either you got it or you don't. And in the absence of empathy, your whole system goes away, right? Without that, this-- Passion and empathy, yeah.

And I think that there's, you know.

I think that a lot of people right now in the world are engaging in pseudo healing. And I think it's just narcissistic navel-gazing and they're actually actually not really healing.

What does that mean?

I think is that they're doing whatever they're doing. Like, I meditate 75 times a day and I do mindfulness this and I ayahuasca that and blah, blah, blah, blah. And they do all of that, but they're still really going through the world in a rather monstrous, entitled, dismissive, contemptuous way. But it's sort of like, you know, what I call healing porn or recovery porn. Like, look at my recovery. I'm so recovery-ish. It's like a spiritual bypass. Exactly. It's a spiritual bypass. And that gives me pause. So you can't even just say, oh, they're doing all this work on themselves.

I don't care how much work they're doing on themselves. How are they showing up? How are you showing up? What's your thoughts on plant medicine as a professional, you know, in terms of a therapy?

In terms of helping people heal. Right. I'm always, I tread so lightly here because as a licensed person, I always have to recognize that my feedback will always carry weight. I am not an MD, so I can't prescribe medication. I do believe this though. What's happening in plant medicine, what's happening in the psychedelic world is the future of psychiatry. I do. I think that there's things happening there. The early clinical trials on MDMA and PTSD, we're seeing some really extraordinary things starting to happen. And I'm enough of a cynic, and I don't know, maybe I look like I have a tin tinfoil hat right on right now. But I do believe Big Pharma doesn't want this to happen because I think that there may be a lot of answers lurking there. But folks, this is not about you going home and going to a rave and doing some MDMA and saying, oh, I'm treating myself with PTSD. No, no, no, no, no, no. The treatment protocols for this have to be done with licensed people in controlled settings. Therapy is happening while the person is using the psychedelic. This is under the most, it has to be done under the most clear formatted protocol. So this isn't just like party drug time and look at me, I'm treating myself. This is not self-medication. It's none of that. This is highly controlled. The dosages are controlled. But I do think there's a tremendous future there. I would be arrogant for me to say otherwise. And when I've talked with folks doing this kind of work, work. It's impressive what they're showing. I'd like to see more data. I'm not, when it comes to what I do from a practice perspective, for example, I can't say to someone, you need to be on Zoloft. I have to say, I'm going to give you a referral to a psychiatrist. You will work with that psychiatrist and they will make whatever medication recommendation they have for you. But I can't, the way my license works, make clear recommendations. So if a client of mine says, I want to explore this. I'll say if you do, we just simply need to make sure you're doing it with a licensed, you know, so somebody who's doing this in a very legitimized, thoughtful kind of a way.

Yeah, I have a. I feel like I. I feel like I have an open mind to a lot of things, but for whatever reason, I. I'm gonna be intentional with my words here. I've met a lot of people. I have a lot of friends who've done a lots of different, you know, Ayahuasca and plant medicine Journeys and experiences and. and all these things that swear by it, right? And people I respect, people that I love and I appreciate and nothing wrong with it. But years down the road, I don't see it having the healing effect that I'm like, okay, well you keep going to doing it. But where is the progress? There's like a week or two of this euphoria. You know, but then you're still struggling in your rela- you're still being a bit bad per- you're still, you know, and it's not for everyone that does this that I know, but I've just experienced that where people swear by it as this euphoria experience, but then six.

Months later they're suffering again. Right, it's the bi- if there's the bypass though, right? Because the work and I've worked with narcissistic clients, Louis. It's not like I'm only on the survivor side. I've worked with many in my time. And let me tell you, I mean, that's, I feel like Foreman in the ring and mercifully I'm actually really good. And you know, actually more like Ali because I can get him against the.

Ropes and exhaust him. You probably created an energy field so.

You'Re not like... Yeah. Or I can take the... Actually, no. Foreman gets him against the ropes. Ali can take the punches. I can take the punches. And so it's a... But what I would see is I would say, because here's the thing. What would be really interesting being in the room with a narcissistic client who actually saw through the therapy. They didn't drop out. One of the interesting things for me, I was fortunate because I had so, I had no spots in my, my practice and I've completely downsized it and mostly have ended most of it. But I, back in the day, I'd say, you don't show up, you lose your slot and you're not in this practice anymore. I'm like, well, I don't wanna lose my slot, right? They don't like that. So they'd show up. But the fact is, is that when they'd show up, they would sometimes say, like, I would say, gosh, that thing you just told me, you said to your wife, like, How did she feel? And how do you feel? No, no, they'd be like, I didn't really think about it. I'm like, let's think about it, shall we? And that's something called mentalization. When you have someone reflect on what they think, how they think someone feels, how they think their behavior is affecting someone, like put yourself in that headspace. So I said, how do you think your wife felt when you did X or Y? Oh yeah, I guess that wasn't cool. Okay, so what might you want someone to do for you in that circumstance, right? And get him to do it.

That's good.

And they would sometimes say, yeah, you're right, that wasn't. So they weren't punching me in the face. They were just kind of like, okay, that wasn't cool. Would they keep making the same mistakes? Yes. Me repeatedly saying, what do you think she felt? Or sometimes I'd even say, that's not cool. I would often say, How would you feel If your wife saw the text that you sent, I divorce her. Really? And I said, do you see you have a double standard? Here's my point though, Louis, and one of the most, you know, and this is gonna be sort of a composite of multiple people from a confidentiality perspective. But I do remember working with a series of people to the end of their relationships, and a couple of them said, more than a few said, you're telling me to make my marriage work. I gotta listen to her talk about her emotional stuff. You know, she's getting old. I don't even like to look at her that much anymore. You're telling me that I can't like. All right, so I'm having. I'm just having sex with this other person, but you're telling me it hurts her. And they're like, I mean, I'll be like, okay, so you're telling me I've got to listen to her, and I have to care about her feelings. And. And then. And you're also telling me I have to do this with this other woman I'm having sex with who thinks I'm gonna have a relationship with. Please. Oh my gosh. Like that. Okay. So you know what? I remember one of my more successful, you know, some of the more successful cases, they come back and say, I divorced the wife and I dumped the mistress. Like, if this is, I don't want to be causing this much harm. They weren't sadistic, you know, but, and after the therapy, they're like, okay, if that, if this is never gonna change, I don't, I, I, it's very clear I want to do what I want to do. And I thought that was a win. They're like, I'm not changing. They were even aware they weren't gonna change. Like, I'm not listening to her nonsense. and I don't like looking at her and I don't think she's attractive anymore. It's like yikes.

It's a win for her and for.

The other people who have been released.

That's big.

Most folks, most narcissistic folks or people with these personalities don't stay in therapy. They're not great candidates for therapy and my guess is to your point about these people who all slide backwards, there ain't enough ayahuasca in the world to turn these people around. I can tell you that right now, there's not enough MDMA, There's nothing. I think everyone's looking for the empathy pill, right? That's what there's that it's not how it works. You know, there's just no such thing.

There needs to be a, you know, this could be something that unlocks you and allows you to start processing and bringing up, you know, potential wounds that you could start to heal.

To do that work.

But you've got to be willing to do some other therapies that's not, you know, external focused around like a medical drug or something to fix you. You've got to do the inner work. to continue that journey.

Right, exactly. And that's what I'm saying, that any of the protocols that are showing any efficacy again around things like PTSD and everything have to be done in a managed circumstance. And to your point, I remember once meeting a guy swearing by whatever psychedelic that's swearing about. This is it.

Can I curse on here?

Because I'm gonna tell you right now, can't put out. The biggest a-hole I have ever met. I mean, he was just a jerk. Just a jerk and cold and abrupt. But yet he had the audacity to say, I am so empathic now. I'm like, ooh. You know, like, okay, that's not how it's usually done. And I had no skin in this game. I was just sort of watching this conversation happen. He was talking to a group of people, but he was just a jerk for the full two days I had to spend in his presence and yet was extolling how much growth he had had. And so I don't know what that meant to him. And maybe people in his life thought there was progress. Remember, I mean, if you're starting from negative 10, even getting up to zero is growth. So there is that too. But it's really tough because I do think there was an interesting article in the New York Times, actually. I think it was today or yesterday about this idea of like, does being in therapy make me a good person? you know, and is that what the point of therapy is, to make someone a good person? What really is a good person? So it really raised a lot of philosophical issues. What is that?

Interesting.

And it's subjective to a point, but I don't think it is. I think one thing we do know when we look at personality, in general, I do think we do believe that compassion and respect make for a good person, but we also live in a world where people like that are viewed as suckers. Right.

You have to have discernment around things and not just buy into whatever one's saying. But it's not even that.

If you're just, especially men, this is, I really feel for men having to endure this. If you're compassionate, sweet, and respectful, often it's not, those are not masculine qualities. It's looking at a weak man. Versus the guy who is like a corporate raider who has a ton of money, who drives the fast car, R is somehow viewed as strong. I mean, this is an instant right now that that's right there, the paradox of what masculinity is in our modern age. Until we can make compassion sexy, we're in trouble.

What do you wish every man could learn to develop more of? Empathy.

Being vulnerable with emotion, to share vulnerability, to share sadness, the number of men, for example, who've been sexually abused, We don't talk about it.

One, six.

Yeah, exactly. And for women, there's actually, at least in therapy, I'm talking about the safe space. But I'm telling you for clients I've worked with, with male clients, I remember some of them saying, I don't want to, I have somebody to talk to, can we do the session by phone? I don't want to look at your face. So shameful. You know, so shameful. And I think that, and when I taught abnormal psychology at the university level and I was teaching about adverse childhood experiences like child abuse, child sexual abuse. What I did notice was that some of the male students were really shifting uncomfortably in their seats and I would slow down. I'm like, listen, if you know, can take this topic slow. It felt like the women in the class were actually had processed that a little bit more on the macro, like overall than the male students in the class. So I think that to hold space to be able to feel safe with talking about their insecurities, their vulnerabilities, their feelings to show tears. I mean, there is nothing more beautiful when a person's able to cry because they're feeling a genuine emotion. And I think of how we pathologize men for doing that. We do, we literally pathologize. It'll be the cold open on Saturday Night Live. They'll make jokes about it. There'll be memes about it. It horrifies me. So why would a man ever be vulnerable if he thinks he's going to.

Be turned into a joke? We'd be made fun of. Yeah. It's interesting you say this, and I wrote a book five years ago called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about my journey of letting go of anger, frustration, resentment, and stepping more into vulnerability. The healing journey and allowing myself to be vulnerable. Talking about sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years since it happened. and just unpacking what it means to be a man, how to take off these masks. And in the process of doing this, I would go to events and talk about the book, right? And there would probably be 50-50 men and women who would be in the room. And I would ask at some point in the event, I say, all the women in the room, raise your hand if you once a week talk to your girlfriends or you have a place where you can go and talk about your challenges or insecurities or fears and things like this of life, your body, you know, shaming issues, whatever it might be, you can talk to someone about it. And pretty much every woman in the room would have raised their hand. I said, keep your hands up if you do this every day with your girlfriends, your mom, your sister, and pretty much all of them kind of laugh.

And say, yeah, I call people every day.

And I said, okay, the guys in the room, raise your hand. You know, if, if you do this once a month, you talk with your guy friends and you to be vulnerable and open up about your insecurities and all these different things as well. Maybe two hands out of hundreds once a month would raise their hand. And let's say, are you guys part of a church group that does this kind of like mandatory, like structural thing where you feel safe in this place and they all kind of laugh like, yes. And I go, how many of you do this once a year? No hands. And so I go, ladies, imagine Going once a month, not even going once a month, not even going once a year. Imagine going a lifetime without ever being vulnerable and opening up because you feel like you're gonna be shamed. Just think about the weight. I'm not saying how men act and treat you and this and this is okay or actions are okay, but just think about that. And I had, and I talked to different men throughout this period who said, Louis, I I started the opening up with my wife and after years that she would always say, I wish you were more vulnerable. I wish you would show emotion more, not just be stoic or angry. And some men would say, listen, I started to do this and I got the worst response from my wife, my partner.

Interesting.

Because they weren't available to receive me being, they're so used to me being stoic and this having it all together that when I was emotional, they needed me to be strong for their emotional challenges. Some of these women, I'm not saying all these women. So how do we get women to be to accept of men starting to shift and be to show emotion, to cry, to say, Hey, I'm struggling. I'm really going with some issues right now. And I've got some stuff I got to deal with. How do we get women also to be like, Hey, it's encouraging. It's okay. And keep a safe space. Right. So that men will continue to and not be like, well, I'm never doing that again. She, she laughed, she made fun of me. Like, why would I ever do this? I'm gonna be strong and tough again.

And that's something that, you know, all everyone has to work on is how to say, what are our, our biases about masculinity? Does it, how, how do we, will that change how you view a partner? Would that, you know, I mean, again, we, you and I, I was watching you talk about something recently where someone was talking about masculinity. and feminine energy and all that. I'm not so sure I agree with that dichotomy, to be honest with you. But I do think that it is a, you know, the shaming of emotion and anger being the only acceptable emotion. So men use that. They, they've turned it into, like, the Swiss Army Knife of emotion. I'm sad. I'm gonna be angry. I'm vulnerable. I'm gonna be angry. Angry, angry, angry. Right? It's like, it's just like the one, the One-Stop shop kind of thing. And, and to me, anger is an incredibly acceptable healthy emotion. It's in the whole, but it's meant to be a whole drawer full of stuff, not just one emotion you use for everything. And that's the challenge is that men do have emotion, anger. And that it's sort of switching that up, societally not pathologizing that and women holding space for that. But I think the other piece for men is I want them to have more deep friendships. Again, something else I read, a great article I read about a guy wrote this idea of, How many men out there have colonoscopy friends? And that headline grabbed me, so I kept reading. You know what his point was? I think he had a girlfriend or wife or something, and he said, if she wasn't in my life, there's nobody to drive me home from a colonoscopy, because you can't drive yourself home and you can't take an Uber home. So, a person has to come and get you at the colonoscopy. That's vulnerable. It's very vulnerable. Most men don't have a, and this is like men over the age of 40, which is when you would be getting a colonoscopy. that men often don't have friendships. They have like, let's go play golf, let's go watch a game, let's meet at a bar, but that person where women have been, are really good at that. And in fact, it's why women often fare better later in life after a spouse dies. Whereas a guy, it's sort of like they'll often decline rather quickly. Some women, not because they flourish, but some women actually do flourish. But they often have a stronger support network because women are often doing that, that cultivating of social relationships. And so, because that's part, that's just something that's more validated for them. And so, and I love that analogy of the colonoscopy friend, like the person you call and say, can you pick me up from this and that, mom, I'm gonna go to work. You know, of course, I'm thinking of the friends I have, like, you give me enough notice, of course I'm gonna come get you. And there's dozens of women I would do that. that for. And so when I even ran that by my partner, he got really sad. He's like, I don't think I have any colonel's could be friends. Yeah. And he's like, I gotta work on that. And so, yeah. Yep.

Dr. Ramani, I appreciate you. I want people to get more of your work. Navigating narcissism.

Yeah, you gotta tune in.

Podcast. Powerful. Season one is almost complete. Season two is going to be coming out early next year, but they can go. through 30 episodes of the podcast. If you want more, go there, subscribe, Everywhere Podcasts that you listen to. Also, your YouTube is an amazing resource. They can go check that out as well. Thank you. Subscribe there. You've got an online program for people healing from narcissistic relationships and abuse. If they go to your website, dr-romani.com, they can learn more about that. They can sign up and get that as well. you got great content on social media. How else can we be of service to you today? I would say that, you know, for.

People who want to do the deeper dive into healing, I have that monthly healing program. I know some people say, I don't know. I don't know if I'm getting this in therapy. I may not have the money. It's very affordable. And I'd say to people, you try it for a month. If you don't like it, it's really not that much lost. And some people say, okay, this is working. Or you see there's a community of people who've been through this. So definitely encourage people to check out my healing platform. They can go to my website and find that. And for people who want to hear lived experience, the podcast is great for that too because on YouTube, I teach people about stuff. On Navigating Narcissism, I talk to people who've been through and all kinds of things. They've survived cults, they've survived abusive relationships, they've survived spiritual abuse, they've survived, I mean, pick a form of abuse. We have talked about it. And so it's a real interesting opportunity to hear that conversation happen in real time and the insights people get when it's framed in that way. And like I said, YouTube is like a big old library where if I haven't talked about it, then drop me a line and if it makes sense, and I'll make a video about it. And that's where a lot of our content ideas come from. People saying, could you talk about this or that? so I do that. And then I'd say, you know what? Get out there and be empathic, be compassionate and practice what I call recognition. By recognition is that see other people, feel them, experience them, hold space for them. Because that moment of recognition, for some people, it might be the very first time they've gotten it in years and it can be a real eye-opener. That every time we meet someone, something really extraordinary about them, recognize it.

Powerful stuff. I asked you a couple of questions last time, but I want people to go to our previous episode to see your three truths and your definition of greatness. They probably have changed. Next time I'll ask you those again, but I want to acknowledge you first before I ask you the final question. I want to acknowledge you for what you just said about five minutes ago about how I think it was a week or two ago in your own therapy you realized you're still having a awakenings and growth and creating more wholeness in yourself, which is really cool to see that you're teaching the work, but you're doing the work.

So you have to do the work. It would be disrespectful to everyone I work with if I didn't do the work myself.

Well, I appreciate it and acknowledge you for how you show up in so many ways. You know, in private conversations with people, the way you coach people, the way you're teaching in all the different platforms. So it's amazing. We need your voice. Very grateful for you and appreciate you for-- for learning and using your wisdom from experience on how to teach this stuff.

-I appreciate that.

-You'Re welcome. And my final question, I want people to go check the 3 Truths in the previous episode. We'll link it up. But my final question is if you could go back to your younger self before the first narcissistic experience that you witnessed yourself. You know, you probably weren't even aware of it obviously. But if you could go back in for that. And she was standing in front of you, whatever age that was, what are three things that you would say to her to support her in the journey she's about to experience or to help kind of like, you know, minimize some of the things that she was about to experience. If you could go back with the wisdom you have, what would you say to her?

I would say to her.

Keep.

Getting lost in the daydreams because they are going to happen. And don't be afraid to change course. And especially that last one is don't be afraid to change course. I'm somebody who went a very traditional educational route, you know, Four years of undergrads, five years of grad school, one year of the training, like residency kind of thing, two years of postdoc. And there was a time in there that I thought to change course and I didn't. And then I became an academic and tenure and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And when I was golly, I really didn't change course. I was 55 years old. and it worked out just fine. I landed on my feet, but there was a lot of work that had to lead up to that. There was times I was working three and four jobs, but I would say don't be afraid to change course. I don't know what would have been different if I had changed course when I was earlier in education. I knew probably there was a different path for me. There's a lot of dreams I haven't, I don't know that I might ever get a chance to do. I've always wanted to live in another country and things like that. I don't know if those will ever happen for me had I changed course, those would have. So I'd tell her, Change course. Like, it's okay if in the second year of grad school you would just listen. We end up where we end up. So it's, I think that the path is the path. And, but I, yeah, those are, but I'd say it's going to be okay. And when I look at pictures of myself at that age, I'm thinking of my life exceeds anything that she would have allowed herself to think.

That's beautiful. Dr. Ramin, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

If you got value from that, then go ahead and stick around for more coming up right now. What would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say it's they got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them a, you know, discipline but love and all these things in the way that the best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? Or how does that actually happen?

So the problem, if someone had all the fundamentals, the safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, the great values, all of those things, supportive educational environment, all of that, you still will have a handful, but you will have dropped the probability from here down to here. It's like a horse race, right? You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Creating adult narcissism is a complex interblend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers, right? And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adult narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people, Exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic.

You see the majority of people.

We're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence is over like you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary, my kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love. Kobe Bryant's father, I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now, imagine that happening a thousand times, 10,000 times. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you whatever. The child learns that all love is conditional, which is really that's transactional. Basically, all narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this though comes down to something called and attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One singular. You need that. That person who is there, who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it, you need that safe, it's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment. that as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism.

So, if you have a secure attachment.

You'Re less likely to have an anxious attachment. If you don't have a secure attachment, you have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, then the person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child and then when the child sees the again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me?

You abandoned me for five hours.

And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style in adulthood.

Can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them?

So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles, okay? Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy, lots, okay? The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement, absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure. and they are very insecure. Very insecure.

Gosh.

And lots of feelings of inadequacy. Okay? So, but that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomach ache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like, there's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's going to get blown off and we're going to be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh my God. Like if I can't take feedback. Hey, yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt and you're like, oh really?

And you start coming at me.

Oh no, you got this on yours.

I'm not talking about me.

I got this and this and this criticizing you. Yes, you see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against a shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. They're calm. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system, and it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know as fight or flight or freeze. And that fight, flight, freeze, and there's even a fourth part to it called Fawn, which we could talk about, but that autonomic reaction, that like boom, adrenaline, got eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I, I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a $100 bill hanging out their wallet, Never could I ever. Like I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, no, you know, because I have a very, probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate would not go up.

They would not think, they'd just- They.

Would just- Take it, steal it. So they have no anxiety. No excitement around it. No excitement, no anxiety, and they're very stress resistant. And that way, that's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're gonna be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, cut those 100,000 jobs and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is, but there is a coldness and a callousness.

Interesting.

Because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.

Interesting.

And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure and profit, and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths. Really?

Yeah.

The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy. The psychopaths don't. They're not insecure. They're not insecure. No, I mean, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you. Get rid of it. Exactly. They'll calmly have someone say, I'll literally look at you if I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like, and I'd be calm and I go, and then I don't know whether that means you kill them or fire them or whatever, but no problem with that. Right. And very calm.

They don't have the emotion. They don't have empathy.

Yeah.

No empathy.

Does narcissist have empathy? Narcissists have, we tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call, I like to call it, instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is. They know. They use it against you. They use it to get what need. They don't necessarily use it against you but like if they want to get you to do something, oh man, I heard your mom's sick. Oh my gosh, how's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like it's rough. You know, my mom was sick. She was really sick for a while too. I get all that. It's a rapport. It's a rapport and then they're getting something from you. So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them, that's why so many people think narcissistic people people are charming and charismatic. They know what the feel, they know what's right. They know, or I should say they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it. But they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something for him, from him. Somebody said his mom's sick. So let me, let me work the mom angle here because that's going to help him feel better. What they have is any regard for, so they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you and someone's the next week when they're fully done with you and say, Hey, his mom got sicker and be like, so yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done. So that's why people say, well don't tell me they don't have empathy because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings. Odds are they needed something at that point.

So what was the most, the scariest narcissist? What was it called? Or the most dangerous, malignant narcissist? Okay, so can you explain again what that is?

So let's talk about, let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? The inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them, the inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed, a sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage, a reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them. blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving.

Insecure.

Deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy. So nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity, And they also--.

Can you have those things and not be narcissist?

You can't.

'Cause I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like-- so.

Here'S where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious and when you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human beings.

Someone who is confident and charismatic.

When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I literally, I'm like, And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look Goo-goo eyes because I'm thinking, and then of course I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm gonna find out what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity. There's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers and I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous. Up front. You know, all, it's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things. Yeah. And people, and if you, either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it.

You just, well, yeah. Yeah.

You know, well, he's got a big job or. She's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only it's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean?

Like dismissive interrupting? Dismissive like, okay, all right. You know, you're talking and then I.

Not only cut in, but it's basically like, your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know what's really, yeah. Okay, so you share some of these.

Signs of malignant narcissism. No, that's okay. So let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about.

Entitlement, yes.

Now the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh my gosh.

God all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Like I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best, no insight, very little empathy kind of but very like big sales person, that's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can, they can, but that's a a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary and when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the Me Too era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists. Right.

So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss didn't seem like it in the beginning but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things. But the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. No. So trying to change them is not gonna happen.

That's a fool's there.

So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out. How does it navigate that?

How do we make it that simple? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin? They're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you're saying, rip off the band-aid. And neither path is easy. But in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse. And they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking, cutting off.

And because it's almost like a toxin, right?

If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate it. Eliminate it. You have a little bit, you're just.

Going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently. It's going to be holding on to it.

Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never going to change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So, and I then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, it's like you're in a deposition. Yes? No? Okay, sounds good. Sure. Now, man, narcissists don't like that because.

They'Re gonna keep coming and biting.

They're gonna bait you. They're gonna bait you. And they, when I tell you, when they bait you, they don't play.

They go for everything.

They go for everything that's gonna hurt you.

Make something else.

They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it.

Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?

And so then some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist is like, game on. And they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio and phenomenal study that came out this year and over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter.

Oh my gosh.

And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain.

Crazy.

Get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me.

This person DM me or this person is kidding on me.

They're always trying to create and they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is normal. We are actually, we're a pair-bonded species, we human beings. We like, we pretty much are about generally, normatively, have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. They said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still, sexually monogamous. With one partner. They weren't banging you. They were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You came, you went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay? But we tend to be pair-bonded we tend to be monogamous. All right? So jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly. Right? If I'm in a, if I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy. is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person, if somebody is comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all that Darwinian stuff, movie production. Pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and negative mood states and all that. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but I always, when I've worked with couples, They're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got a skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and or worked with individuals and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad because I'm.

Like, yeah, this thing's kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous.

I feel like I trust the person I'm with. Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically, on my drive here, He was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to have to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh? He doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, that's, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I still got a dog in the fight. But it doesn't mean you're like, I.

But I am letting it stress you out.

And like talking to them about it.

Only because we're talking about it.

Yeah, of course, yeah. And so the path, what did you say?

Paranoid. Paranoid, the pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy. Yeah, that's a narcissistic thing. That's more paranoid, it's more antagonistic, it's.

More about-- you- must be doing something. You're doing so it's accusatory, it's almost delusional. Oh my gosh, okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist. Is it all trauma based?

It's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. Basically, the child can do no wrong and they're so wonderful. I mean, it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because what? Facebook coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world. We're every moment being documented and shared and since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this. So I did not, the only people saw their pictures were the people actually, friends and family, put them in an.

Envelope, mailed Or came over to that.

House and looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're Whatever.

It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the development Mental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool.

Yeah, what happens when I'm not agreeing? What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, Huh, that's not really cool.

I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done.

To them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

Or for the validation online.

Exactly. For the validation of the likes and the engagement. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And that's tough because I have friends who never show their kids stuff and then I have friends who do show their kids. And man, it's just like, yeah, how do we navigate that conversation?

And how do we-- I think we're building this airplane in the sky.

Oh, man.

And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other, both parents, but also I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that their valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right? Because what does every child want? They want their parents' love.

Love and attention.

All they want is their parents' love and attention. So, if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interest, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo off. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented. I've been frankly with a psychologist, I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to kick. Eroticism in a relationship is the quality of imagination, curiosity, playfulness, mystery, risk-taking. novelty that people bring to their relationship. Those are the things that I think bring life to a relationship.