How To MANIFEST Love & Healthy Relationships Into Your Life (TRY THIS TODAY) | Lewis Howes
In this extensive episode of The School of Greatness, Lewis Howes guides listeners through recognizing, escaping, and healing from toxic relationships, offering five concrete signs of toxicity, self‑inventory questions, and practical self‑coaching tools such as the "grant yourself permission" exercise and boundary‑setting frameworks. He then shifts to a broader cultural analysis, framing marriage as a man‑made technology with built‑in trade‑offs, urging prospective couples to treat it like any product—review disclosures, consult a divorce lawyer, and learn from both successful and failed marriages. The conversation expands to gender‑specific communication gaps, illustrating how women often over‑analyze while men default to logical problem‑solving, and provides concrete conversational tactics (favor‑asking, handkerchief metaphor) to bridge the gap. Throughout, Howes emphasizes personal healing, the role of social circles in dating, the necessity of distance and individuality, and the importance of aligning personal growth with relationship choices. Listeners are encouraged to take notes, reflect on three courageous questions, and apply the outlined exercises to cultivate healthier, more conscious love.
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I think you gotta have a dream.
The School of Greatness.
Really? Yeah.
Please welcome Lewis Howes.
Hey guys, Lewis Howes here. And today, I'm very excited about this episode because we are going to discuss how to let go, move on, and heal from a toxic relationship. And I am so excited because I just feel like a lot of people struggle with this. I will raise both of my hands because I struggled with this in the past too many times to count. The right relationship can help lift us up and become the person we've always dreamed of becoming, really becoming our most authentic self. But on the other hand, the wrong relationship has the potential to leave us with crippling self-doubt and painful wounds that we have to deal with for potentially years to come. And again, I'm going to speak from my own experience on this episode. But first off, if you're leaving a toxic relationship, you're probably feeling a lot of different emotions right now. But I want to take a moment and really acknowledge you for having the courage to make the jump because it can be extremely scary. And I know so many people who have stayed in the wrong relationship for far too long, myself included. Just nod to yourself or leave a comment below if you stayed more than six months, a year, two years longer than you probably should have in a relationship. Let me know in the comment below. And that's why I wanted to really take the time to give you the tools today that you need to move on to the next chapter of your life with more confidence. And by these tools, meaning the tools that I learned from personal experience, but also from all the different experts that we've interviewed here on the School of Greatness, who are teaching relationship strategies, who are diving into the research, who are working with couples on a daily basis and sharing the lessons we've learned from them in a nice little package here for you in this video. And by the end of this episode, you will know the five signs of a toxic relationships, how to take inventory of your own relationship patterns and then break them in a healthy way, and also some self-coaching tools to help you take consistent, courageous action in your relationships and in your love life. I'm excited about this. This is stuff that I love learning about and diving in and stuff I continue to learn about for myself by having these different experts on. So make sure to get out a pen and paper. If you're listening or if you're watching, take notes and let's go ahead and jump right in. And also at any moment, if you're enjoying this or getting some aha moment, Feel free to leave a comment in the video on YouTube or send me a message over on Instagram as well @lewisowes about your thoughts on this topic. So first off, what is a toxic relationship? Let's define it. The definition of a toxic relationship is that these toxic relationships are those where only one party seeks control over the other to achieve selfish goals and uses the other party for their own benefit. So again, it's about one getting control over the other for their own benefit. That's the definition that we're using here. So what are the five signs of a toxic relationship? Number one, and again, leave a comment if you've ever experienced this, consistent lying and foundational mistrust. So what does this mean? When to move on, if the other person can't or won't commit to honesty, it might be time to end the relationship. that's when you should think about moving on. If the person won't commit to honesty or can't do it, it might be time to end the relationship. Number two, gaslighting in relationships. We've had some different experts come in and talk about gaslighting, talk about the different strategies that narcissists use in relationships, but this is again to consider to move on if the other person isn't willing to change their ways or give up power over the relationship. And here's the challenge. I actually think when you get into a relationship, you wanna know the full range of emotions, behaviors, actions, and beliefs about the person that you're deciding to commit to. You don't necessarily want to change them when you're getting into the relationship. People are gonna be resistant to change. You want to accept who they are, but if for whatever reason they've lied to you or they've manipulated you and they've said things out of integrity, and then later it's coming out, and they're not willing to change their lives, that's probably when it's a little more toxic. So I'm a big believer of getting to know the full person first, accepting who they are, both being on a journey of growth and contribution to each other in the relationship. But if people are lying and manipulating, that's something to consider when thinking about moving on in this space. That's the second one. The third thing is jealousy and possessiveness. Now, I will be one to admit, In my teens and my 20s, I was more of a jealous person. I was more possessive in a way that you can say, I didn't feel safe or secure with myself. And so I would get jealous and be worried about my girlfriends going out alone or going and hanging out with guys or whatever it might be. It was more of an insecurity for me. Now, I wasn't extreme possessive and like, you can't do this and give me your phone and calling them 20 times an hour or something like that. But I definitely had some jealousy in me. and that was meaning that I needed to work on that inside of me. But here's the thing when to move on. If you feel unsafe or the other person refuses to acknowledge the problem, then it's time to seek some help from a professional and potentially leave the relationship. If someone is extreme jealousy, extreme possessiveness, listen, I get it. We all might have some jealousy or some need of like insecurity in a relationship, but that's typically our own stuff we got to work on. unless someone is really trying to do something nasty or lie behind our back, that's different. But I think we can always be working on that within ourselves. But if this is extreme cases, then make sure to seek some professional help and support on how to navigate, communicate effectively, and again, if you don't see the change and it's not working for you authentically, it's probably time to move on. Number four, when there's no self-care allowed. So it's time to move on if you consistently don't take care of yourself. because you feel like the other person is more important or they're saying they're more important than you or they're trying to manipulate you and try to get all of your time to help them and they don't want you to support yourself with your own mental, emotional or physical health. Then it might be time to speak with a mental health professional or relational therapist to figure out how to resolve this challenge or to move on. And number five, you want to save them. When to move on. Loving someone who's struggling isn't a bad thing. You know, we want to lift people up. We want to help people. We want to support our partners, all these things. And we're going to go through different stages of life that one person might be struggling at a certain time than the other person. This isn't a bad thing, but it can become toxic if you make yourself responsible for their transformation, if you take full ownership that you need to save and rescue them. ultimately, it's out of your control whether someone will or will not change. And it's not worth staying in a toxic situation, holding on to the hope that you will, quote unquote, save them. Again, we want to be there for a partner. We want to lift them up. We want to empower people. We want to be a stand for the masterpiece that is in front of us in partnership, in union, sickness and health. It's not about not being a stand for someone. It's about if you go into this with I need to save them, all they're trying to do is save you. There might be some unhealthy codependency, some unhealthy trauma bonding from that space and need that is coming from you or the other person. I want you to take inventory of where you are. You've heard the five signs of a toxic relationship, but what do they mean to you? Again, feel free to leave a comment below of what they mean to you if one of them stood out to you. if something you did helped you overcome one of these things or if you've noticed these things in any relationships before. Let's take inventory of your relationships and love life by asking a couple courageous questions. And I really think it's important to ask courageous questions of yourself and others frequently. Take time to ask yourself these three questions. Number one, which of the five signs of toxic relationships show up in your love life? Again, Reflect on this, journal on this, leave a comment below. Number two, what would you do if you had to change this pattern in the next 30 days? So just reflect, what would you do if I had to do this? Would I meet with a coach? Would I address something personally? Would I go through a journey of healing? Would I confront my partner in a conscious, loving way and talk about these things? And number three, what is stopping you from changing this pattern? Again, this is for you to reflect on, this is for you to think about. you know, maybe you just haven't been aware of these patterns and it was a pattern and behavior that was unconscious to you until now. And you were just living based on a model of what you experienced from your parents or what you saw your siblings do or whatever. It just became a familiarity of a behavior. There's no right or wrong, good or bad here. There's no shame or judgment. But you have to ask yourself, is this effective? Is this useful? Is this helping me expand myself or is it making me shrink myself? And for me, I had to take inventory over a previous relationship. After multiple relationships kept ending in suffering and pain and sadness, I had to take inventory on how I was showing up, how I wasn't being as conscious and as healthy in certain areas that I could be. and also how I was attracting unhealthy relationship behaviors and patterns in other people. I'm not here to blame or make wrong of people I've dated, but what I am here to recognize is that I was the common denominator of all the different unhealthy relationships I was in. Maybe I was trying to save or rescue people. Maybe I was trying to feel needed or wanted by attracting certain people that weren't coming from a healthy environment. So I had to, in a previous relationship, actually really look in the mirror and say, Man, why am I repeating this pattern? Why have I dated multiple people in long-term committed relationships where I feel like it ends up not being the healthiest way of aligning to a vision and relationship? What is that within side of me? Where do I feel like I need to improve? How can I become better? what do I need to heal in order to stop attracting this and thinking that someone who is potentially wounded is a healthy relationship for me and really get courageous with asking myself questions. So it's one of the things that I did. And for me, what worked was going on a healing journey, finding a therapist, finding a coach to guide me in processing the traumas inside me so that I could create a healthier identity of myself in intimacy moving forward. and that's what really has supported me. And I just think it's a journey, right? It's a journey and it's not an overnight thing. Healing unhealthy relationship patterns can feel extremely scary because no one wants to look themselves in the mirror. No one wants to address, okay, they are in this relationship. They attracted it. They allowed people to do certain things. They allowed unhealthy behaviors to happen. They gave in. They abandoned themselves. They didn't stand up. for what they wanted. It's not fun. It feels a little bit scary when you start to face and address these things. But pursuing beauty and greatness in your relationships is always worth it. Pursuing the ability to feel deeply and open your heart and feel a sense of authentic conscious love is an incredible feeling that I want every one of you to experience. And I feel like it really hasn't been until the last couple of years when I've truly been able to feel it consistently. from a conscious way. So I want you guys to be able to get there as well. And again, this is not like I figured it out and I'm perfect or something, but I feel like I've been able to experience it a lot more frequently because I've been just doing so much work over the years by interviewing these experts, by diving in with coaching, by allowing myself to grieve and heal and transform from the inside out. So a quote and idea from my book, the Greatness Mindset, which is really all about unlocking the power of your mind. about healing from the inside out so you can see the world differently and see relationships differently inside of you and in front of you and make better decisions with the relationships in your life. A quote from the book says, it will mean giving it your all, taking courageous action, but then letting go of the results, which is a hard one for a lot of people. The results may not be what you expect them to be, but they may be better. or they may just be different and that's okay. That's on page 12 of the Greatness Mindset. If you want to learn more about that, make sure to grab a copy. Again, this will give you a lot of different tools from the experts we've interviewed over the last decade to support you in the healing journey, having a better relationship with yourself and also therefore having better relationships in intimacy, love and romance. what does taking courageous action look like to heal your relationship pattern? Because for me, I believe it's about healing a pattern. It's creating a new meaning around a pattern that you've been showing up as. And to answer that, I want to share more about setting healthy boundaries and what I call the granting yourself permission exercise. So boundaries are huge. And a lot of people and experts are coming out talking about boundaries. There's tons of books. bestselling books about boundaries because most of the time we've been conditioned to give and sacrifice and over sacrifice to everyone around us without taking care of ourselves. And I'm all about being of service and helping your friends and community and your family, but making sure you also create a good relationship and boundaries with you so you have an abundance of energy that you can help others as well. And healthy boundaries are the foundation of healthy relationships. And in my mind, having that inner peace and a harmonic relationship with yourself internally, which is huge. That environment of harmony, of resonance, of congruency with self allows you to create better healthy relationships with others. And we can't just create them, we need to communicate them. You can't just expect someone to know your boundaries and you can't yell at someone and say, don't do this, I don't like when you do that. These things are unconscious ways of communication. We yell, we react when we have a wound, when we're triggered, when someone hits a button inside of us that we don't like to feel something. So we get to take responsibility for our communication, for our language, for our tone, for our energy, and for our intention when we're connecting with our partners. We need to make sure the people in our lives are clear about our boundaries and express ourselves the moment that they are crossed. I can speak from personal experience that it was very, very hard for me to communicate boundaries because I didn't want to upset people. I didn't want people to be mad at me. I didn't want people to be frustrated with me or to get hurt. And so I would keep myself quiet and just continue the process. Then I would resent the people who were crossing my boundaries when I didn't communicate my boundaries because I lacked the courage emotionally. So again, I had to face myself. I had to address these things within me that were causing me to feel insecure about having these conscious conversations. It takes courage to talk to people that you care about and say, Hey, I know you've been doing this for the last five years, three years, ten years, and I know I haven't said anything about it. So this is not a blame or a make wrong and I'm not mad at you. I just want to take responsibility for myself and realize that this doesn't work for me anymore. I want to make sure I don't abandon myself in this area anymore. My request is that we don't do things this way anymore. My request is that when I need alone time, you don't interrupt me or whatever it is the boundary you need for yourself. Just doing it from a calm, loving, conscious way. Again, when you attack someone to try to create a boundary, it's going to make them a little off for a second, make them feel a little what's going on? Resistant. Just try to do it from a conscious way. I know it takes courage. the more you practice it, the easier it will get. And again, this is a... I want to close from this part from the grant yourself permission exercise. This is from again, the greatness mindset. So, this is an exercise called grant yourself permission. There are two pages in here that I want to cover page 224 and 225 in the greatness mindset that allow you to create this process for yourself. And again, step one, you want to figure out what your goal is. What your goal is with this relationship, what your goal is with communicating this process, what your goal is in creating this boundary or whatever it is that you want to create for yourself. So either write down the goal or define the goal with the person you're talking to. Step two is to identify the criticisms. And when you think about chasing after the goal that you named in step one, what doubts come up? Think about the doubts that might come up in having this conversation or the goal around this boundary. Okay? Using the outline below, write the self-criticism preventing you from working towards that goal. So again, if you go to the page right here, you can see it and you can write it down for yourself in the book, but I'll just give you the prompt right here. Write the self-criticism preventing you from working towards your goal. Number one, I am not blank enough. Number two, I am too blank. And it is too irresponsible or selfish to go after this goal because blank and fill in the blank there. So again, I am not what enough. I am too blank. And it is too irresponsible or selfish to go after this goal because blank. Now also to continue this, in my past, I experienced what trauma? So write down what trauma. So maybe in my past when I tried to create a boundary with this person, I experienced and then define and write in what you experienced with that response. That traumatic feeling, the stress, the overwhelm, the resistance. Whatever it was, write that down. And that makes me afraid that what? When I communicate this, I'll get the same response. That'll get shut down, that I won't, I'll be met with resistance. Write that down. and I should not feel what? So again, this is all in these pages right here, page 224-225 of the book. And there's also another step to this process which is crafting a permission statement which is giving yourself permission to take this action. So again, I want you to grant yourself permission first and follow these prompts. Again, it's page 224-225 of the greatness mindset. If you get yourself a copy, there's tons of tools in here and also in my opinion on page 201, it's one of my favorite graphics and really explaining points about what it means to be in a powerless mindset versus a greatness mindset. And when we think about toxic relationships or unhealthy, unconscious relationship choices that we make or that we are in, a lot of times we feel powerless in a relationship when it is toxic. Again, if you talk about those top five things that we addressed previously, we feel powerless when we don't feel like we're able to take care of ourselves. We feel powerless when someone is possessive and jealous and controlling of our time and energy and all the things we do and who we hang out with. We feel more powerless. All these different things we talk about in the book on how to overcome the powerless mindset and then transform into the greatness mindset. It's a set of tools, strategies and beliefs that you can shift into that greatest mindset so you can have just a healthier, more conscious, loving relationship with your partner. Again, that's what I want you guys to have. You've got it all inside the book, the Greatness Mindset. Now, I know this can be a pretty deep and heavy topic to discuss and go over and talk about, but I hope the strategies that we went over are kind of just defining what these five keys he's are giving you some tools to help get you started, will support you and bring you a sense of peace and healing as you set out in this next chapter of your life. Again, whether you're in a season of singleness and you're not in a relationship, whether you're in a relationship that might feel like other, some of these things, not all of them, but some of them don't feel as healthy and conscious and there's some toxicity in there, maybe it's coming from you. Maybe it's coming from your partner or maybe you're both caught up in this toxic behavior. This is not a blame and a make wrong, but this is about looking yourself in the mirror and having the courageous conversations with self and with your partner to address how to get out of these things and just create more harmony in the relationship. It can be stressful, it can be challenging, it can be confrontational. But I want to remind you before you jump into a relationship with another person, again, if you're in a single season, be sure to attend to the relationship with yourself first. Make sure you're giving to you your self-care, your love, your health, your physical, mental, spiritual health. Give yourself the attention you would want from a romantic partner. Give it to yourself first. That way when someone gives it to you, it just brings more joy and happiness, but it doesn't make you happy alone. with it. You want to make sure you're in control of your happiness, that you are doing things to bring you joy. And then when you meet someone in a relationship, they should add to your joy, add to your happiness. My girlfriend Martha says to me, it might sound harsh at some times because it's not romantic sounding. She goes, Louis, you don't make me happy, but you make me happier. She's already a happy person before she met me. She's happy with me, whether I do things or not for her. but she is happier getting to experience love with me, with a partner. And I want you to feel happy with where you're at and happier with the person you're with as well because you're experiencing life, you're experiencing love, you're experiencing these magical moments and feelings and adventures together. You're creating a beautiful bond together. That's what I want you to take away from this. I wish I was able to receive some of this information 10 years ago, 15 years ago, heck, five years ago, three years ago, because I lacked the courage to address that I made poor decisions by choosing relationships that were unhealthy. We never want to look at ourselves in the mirror and say, oh, I made a wrong decision. I made a poor decision. Or I didn't make the best conscious decision. We never want to face those things within ourself. And so it's hard to hear certain things if you don't want to point the finger back to you and say, oh man, well I'm really the one to be responsible here. I'm the one to blame. I'm the one who's got to take full ownership of my decisions because I choose this and I did things out of sexual chemistry or attraction and not out of spiritual alignment. And so you just want to make sure you figure out where you are currently in your life. and really connect with someone out of that spiritual alignment, that spiritual connection over a trauma bonding experience, over a just sexual connection alone without making sure you're in alignment with all the other values, vision and lifestyle that you have for yourself as well. So again, wherever you are, whoever you are, thank you so much for listening, for watching, for being here. I appreciate you and I just want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. Make sure to pick up a copy of the Greatness Mindset. Leave a comment below if this was a powerful episode for you. And if you want more lessons on relationships, on overcoming unhealthy, toxic challenges in relationships, if you want us to do more research and have on more guests where I talk about some of these things that I've learned as well, leave a comment below, share this with a friend, Make sure to get a copy of the book. Thank you guys so much. We'll see you next time. If you enjoyed that interview, then I know you'll love what we have coming up right now. You were talking about before we started that marriage is a technology.
Yeah.
Now, what does that mean? What is the technology of marriage?
I think anything that's designed to solve a problem is a technology, right? So, I mean, this mug is a technology, you know? And what is the problem to which this technology is a solution? Well, it's the problem of I can't hold hot tea in my hands. It's a problem of I don't want to use and kudos to you for using non-disposable ones, that zero waste, you listen to it. And the truth is that it's designed to solve a problem. So, the next question is who has that problem? Well, you know, anyone who wants to drink a beverage has that problem, you know? And the next question, and I think the most important question is, What problems does it unintentionally create? Okay, so every technology is a Faustian bargain in the sense that it solves a problem and it creates a problem.
Now you gotta clean it, you gotta.
Use water to store it.
Exactly, you have to find stylish ones. I mean, you went, you know, classic plane, but you gotta find ones with witty sayings on them and it can break and now my favorite mug was broken and how am I gonna replace it? I mean, again, some of these problems are silly little problems in exchange for really great benefits. But most people never ask themselves the question, the technology of marriage, which is a man-made technology, a human-made technology. We got together and said, Hey, let's create this legal contract.
Governed by a state.
Right, governed by the state. Let's come up with something that let's turn a lover into a relative. You know, let's find a way to turn this into a legally binding contract. And people just go and sign up for this technology. And they spend more time thinking about what cake they should serve at the ceremony, then thinking about what did I just sign on for and why did I sign on for it and what are some problems it might create for me in exchange for the things that it solves for me? And by the way, will it even solve the problem that I'm trying to have it solve? And one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, if you got married to solve the problem of being alone, you might be alone still in your marriage. Like if you solve, if you got married because you want to have you want to have more sex. You know, being married is no more a guarantee of getting sex than living near a restaurant is a guarantee of getting fed. You know, it doesn't mean just because you're in it, you're going to receive the benefit that you think you're going to receive of it. And how many couples before they get married really sit down and say, hey, we're going to sign up for this technology. What do you want to get from it? What should I be wanting to get from it? How will it change over the years? That just doesn't happen. So if that doesn't happen, how are we then surprised that it doesn't work? 53% of the time.
53% is now the standard. Is the divorce rate. The divorce rate, then more probably still don't work, but they're in it.
Exactly.
So that's the part, and it's funny that you go there, because that's where I go with it. So 53% is already terrifying, right? If I said to you there's a 53% chance when you walk out of this room, you get hit in the.
Head with a bowling ball.
Yeah, you're probably not gonna go out.
Or you're gonna wear a helmet, at a minimum. Yeah, exactly. At a minimum, you're gonna wear a.
Helmet, but you probably wouldn't go out. Now, let's look at that number though.
53% end in divorce. That's US or global?
US. US. US only. Okay.
Now think about what percent stay together for the kids. That should get divorced, but stay together. They can't stand each other.
But they stay together. That they stay together 'cause they don't upset the kids, or they don't wanna.
Give away their stuff. I would say another 75% stay together.
Stay together even though they want to get divorced.
Okay, so let's say 20, another 25% of married people, let's say. So now we've got a technology with a failure rate over.
75%.
So now what percentage stay together for religious reasons? Probably a declining percentage over the years.
But let's say more.
You know, 5%.
That might be the same as kids and you know, might be the same.
So if I say there's a technology with a failure rate of 80%, Toyota had a 0.0001% brake failure.
Nice save.
On their, thank you. A 0.001% brake failure on one of their vehicles and they recalled all the vehicles. So if I said to you 80% of technology, you, we still use it. Not only do we use it, we celebrate its use.
Yeah, it's part of our culture and we're shamed if we're not married on it.
Absolutely. Well, because it's, it's considered a sign that you're not mature in forward thinking.
And we're ashamed to weren't divorced.
Right.
But now we're being celebrated to get out of marriages if it's not what.
We want or if we're not getting what we want. That's a trend that's definitely starting to change. So, I think-- It's like leave him, divorce him or whatever, you know.
Right.
Well, I think it's self-actualization, you know, became more of a thing and after the 1970s, you know, people started thinking about like, you know, themselves and their happiness. It wasn't just about the unit anymore. It was about finding yourself, then yeah, it became more acceptable to be self-interested. I'm not gonna say selfish because not all self-interested people are selfish. But it became more acceptable to say, I'm not happy. I married this person when I was 20, and now I'm 40, and shockingly, I'm not the same person at 40 that I was when I was 20. And now I'm a different person, and it's no longer a good fit. fit, you know? I mean, the analogy I tell people is, is if I said to you right now, you can have any car you want. What car would you have? Well, I just got a Tesla.
I have a Tesla, too. Yeah. I actually don't care about cars. I don't have a big car yet, either. But I got one for tax reasons, actually. Okay.
Cool.
And I had a 1991. I still have a 1991 Cadillac El Dorado. Okay. They had, like, 60, 000 miles on it. Okay. Just. I Uber everywhere. I don't really use a car.
Yeah.
If you have any car you want.
But I like the Tesla. I like the Tesla because it's fuel efficient.
It's, you know. I just wish I had a bigger budget. You're a pragmatic guy. You ask most people that question. They're gonna get a Ferrari. Ferrari Lamborghini. I want a Maserati. Yeah, yeah. Now if I then said to them, okay, you get one car though, whatever car you pick, that's the car you're gonna have for the rest of your life. Suddenly, a Lamborghini is a terrible idea. You can't put a car seat in it for a kid. And you can't, you know, when you're 80 years old, get into that car, right? So if you are only allowed to have one car, you got to find a car that not only makes sense when you're 20 and 30 and 40, but when you're 70. And when you have kids. And when the kids have gone away. So again, like a minivan that might make sense when you got three kids. When the kids go off to college, that minivan no longer makes sense. Well, marriage is a technology where you're signing on with one person and saying for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be with this person. And that's a very challenging thing. But here's the thing, I actually think people give more thought to the car they're buying than they do really to the technology of marriage and what about it specifically they like or don't like.
What training or information do you think, do you wish every couple would go through before signing up for the technology of marriage?
That'S a great question. I I think, you know, if you buy a house, you get a lead paint disclosure, you get a HUD disclosure that talks about the loan, you get all kinds of disclosures, right? You sign a will. There's all these pages that explain to you in great detail. You know, what's happening when you sign that. Well, you get married, you don't even get a pamphlet.
Yeah.
You don't even get, like, a one-page brochure.
This is, by the way, this is.
The most legally there's no significant thing other than dying that you will ever do legally, and you don't get any information about what just happened. So the first thing I would say is I think everybody who's gonna get married should have an hour consultation with a divorce lawyer. Absolutely.
So they should go into your office.
Yes, but for a different reason.
For a different reason.
Proactively, yes. They should come in proactively and learn about what's about to happen legally, what's about to happen to my rights, you know, what's about to change in terms of how I property, the financial obligations I'll have to this person. I would also say one of the best things they could do is talk to someone candidly who's been married for an extended period of time. You know, that's not something we do. We're not encouraged to be honest about our relationships. We're not. I mean, one of the things you talk about masculinity that I loved is about particularly for men, but I think it's true for women, too. We don't share candidly what's really going in our lives. We're in a very curated society where you put up on social media the best picture and the best vacation photos and the best of everything we're doing and we don't share with each other the challenges, we don't share with each other even really relevant information. Like when I meet a couple who's been together for 20 years, you know, I want to know, I mean, I love the story, oh, how did you meet? And you know, how many times a week do you have sex?
Who initiates it?
Do you ask the shiz? Do you always do the same stuff? Because you've been together for 20 years and you know what each other like or do you try, do you call an audible every once in a while and just do some wacky thing? What is it really like, the day-to-day of your relationship? And so many people, I mean you've been in relationships, I've been in relationships, so many people just don't talk honestly. Even when I'm with my guy friends, do we really talk honestly about the day-to-day of our relationships? the way we talk to the women in our lives, like the nickname they have for us or the nickname we have for them. Again, it's private to some degree information, but if we could share that stuff a little more, we'd have a lot more accurate of a perception of where our relationship stands in the scheme of things and how we're doing. You know, because I really think there's this perception that people have of, you know, oh, we're only having sex. this many times a week. It's like, well, okay, is that a lot? Is that too little? You have nothing to compare it to. Right, right. So in marriage, there's no way to know if you're doing well at it. Because you can't say, well, we have fights every now and then. Well, okay, people have fights every now and then. But if you have a fight every week, that might be a lot. But how would you know? What would you compare it to? So I would say one of the best things you can do to people who are considering getting married is put them in a room with people who've been good at that technology, who've managed to not only endure marriage, but endure it and still like it. -And thrive.
-Right.
-And still say, you know what? I'd sign on for this again. Like in a room full of people.
I'd still pick this person.
-Yeah, that's cool. -And how many of those opportunities do.
We really get to talk to people that way about their relationship? -Not many, yeah. -And maybe also talk to someone who's been through divorce and ask them what.
Didn'T work and why didn't it work and where did it break down? -Exactly. See, one of the principles principles that inspired me to write the book was the idea that, you know, again, I hate using car metaphors because I'm not a car guy, but it's the best analogy I can think of in the sense that if when you bought a car, you did every bit of preventative maintenance that a mechanic told you to do.
You changed the oil every-- Everything. Two months or whatever.
Yeah, my sister's a dentist, you know, and she always says to me, By.
The time your tooth hurts, it's too late. You're screwed. Prevent it. Yeah.
Loss every day, not after you have any. all the stuff she tells you to do when you go see her, your teeth are gonna do well. So it's for me, who knows more about how a car breaks down than a mechanic, right?
So.
I know people are in my office and I get a very candid view of them and I get to talk to them and I have been very blessed that people trust me with tremendously personal information. And so what I wanted to do with that information is just find a way to leverage that into some kind of wisdom that people could use and say, you know what? Just don't do what they did. When we were talking about titles for the book, it was a hilarious escapade because one of the first ideas was, well, we'll call it everyone screwing everyone. Because it was about how people just abuse each other in the process of divorce and how they're really taking advantage of each other. And then we said, well, no, that's too pessimistic. And we said, well, maybe we could just call it vows and talk about the promises that people make. But it's not really the promises that are interesting, it's the way that people go in with good intentions with those promises and they just can't keep it together.
Can't keep it, yeah.
So I really think that for me, the best thing we can do with anybody is to show them a model of success and show them a model of failure. You know, and look, you've said it a million times on this show that you learn just as much from your successes as your failures. You might learn more from your failures to some degree. So we don't have those role models. We don't have relationship role models, you know. And you know, one of the things you talked about masculinity when you're talking about Neil Strauss and his marriage and how he says, look, it was my stuff. It wasn't like I said, oh, I don't like marriage because I don't like this about it. I don't like that it would force me to do and forced me to do that. And really what it was is he just didn't want to look at his own stuff. And he felt like to have a good marriage, you'd have to look at his own stuff, which is absolutely true.
Yeah.
And most of what my book is about is about, yeah, you gotta look at your stuff. If you want to be successful in this technology, you gotta look at it, own it, and share it with this person.
Be aware and be honest with the person about who you are and what you want, what you don't want. Now, you were married for how long? I was married for 12 years.
12 years.
Got divorced. Yep, got divorced. While you were a divorce attorney. Yes, while I was a divorce attorney. So you're hearing these stories every day.
And going through it. Going through your marriage. But you know, my, yeah, my marriage I think benefited from my experience as a divorce attorney.
Because you knew the cues of what.
Not to do or what was gonna work. But it was hurt by the fact that I what I do for a living and was so consumed with it that I worked constantly. You know, my ex-wife who is one of my dearest friends to this day, she's remarried to an amazing guy who's a great stepdad to my sons who are now older, they're both in college. But I'm very blessed. I mean, I've had an experience of divorce where I'm still close friends with her, I'm friends with her husband, You know, and I'm very lucky for that. Because I look at it like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to.
Sure.
And she's one of them. She's someone I love. She's someone I appreciate who I think is just an amazing person, but we don't have the exact ingredients that you need to be successful in marriage. Because we met when we were 17.
Mm-.
And what we wanted when we were 17, 18, 19, 19-22 when we got married, 24 when we had kids. When we turned around and we're in our 30s, we went, you know, we don't actually have that much in common. And so either I'm gonna have to stop being who I actually am. Like, I love to travel. You don't love to travel. You love, you know, I mean, from silly things. You love shabby chic furniture. And I like very zen aesthetics. You know, like, you love this kind of movie, and I love this. kind of movie and you reach a point where you kind of go, well, do we white knuckle it now because we don't want to quit something that isn't working? Or do we say, you know what? Let's call this. Let's call this and let's find someone who feeds us in the right way and see if or just be alone for the right reasons, you know? And I'm very blessed that the person who I was married to was mature enough to see it the same way and to have that painful but really wonderful conversation that so few people can have. And that is to say, look, this thing was successful. We both are leaving this better people than we were when we came into it. And we're leaving it with two kids that are the exact chemistry of the two of us, and they're made up of the two of us. But we're gonna kind of take our different paths now. And let's still love each other. Let's still respect each other.
It's not just uncoupling, that's all right.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the term that's been handed to it. But you know, the truth is, is I think people have been doing it for years. You just don't hear about it. It's not that, my divorce is the least interesting thing about me. It really is. Like if I said to you, like, you know, tell me 10 things about yourself, the fact that I'm divorced wouldn't make a list because the fact that I tried to marry someone and stay with them forever and it didn't work out. Isn't that interesting? It's not that unique. You know what you hear about the people who talk about their divorces incessantly are people who were wounded by them.
Yeah.
And now they've been victimized by their divorce and so it becomes a tremendous part of their identity.
They hold on to it for a while and they talk about it and here's what happened.
And so, you know, they're the silent There's a huge number of people that had divorces like mine, where the marriage just ended, it ended in a friendly fashion, they continue to co-parent successfully together.
And they both live their lives. There's not this pain and resentment for years. No.
You know, and I have to tell you, as a divorce lawyer, as a practicing divorce lawyer, a huge, I would say more than 50% of the people that I represent, it's that kind of transaction. It really is that it's just two people that their time is done, and now we just have to figure out how to divide up the things they have and work out the schedules with the kids.
That's kind of a norm. 50%.
Yeah, I would say at least 50%. That's good. But the thing is, the other 50% are louder. Are so much more interesting. I mean, so much it's like, 'cause really, who wants to hear about, like, oh, I talked to my ex-wife yesterday and she's lovely. She's moving to Rochester soon.
Like, that's her life.
It's the drama on the train wreck. She threw a bat at me. She set my car on fire. It's way more interesting, you know?
Oh man, do you feel like, you know, marriage, I hear this all the time, it's something that's not gonna be easy, right? There's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be fights or arguments, and there's gonna be some things that you're not gonna agree on. If you ground everything awesome, but it doesn't sound like there's many marriages that are always perfect and always smooth. After 10, 20, 30 years, there's gonna be some conflict.
Mm-.
So does that mean in your opinion that we should just be like, you know what? Let's throw in the towel when it gets too challenging or, you know, it's getting challenging, that's when we got to dive in deeper and like come together as a marriage because we signed up for this.
It's a great question. I would say the following. I think one of the most common things people will say to you about marriage is, you know, marriage is hard. Marriage is hard. I don't know that that's true. I think if you consider paying attention hard, then marriage is hard. If you don't consider paying attention hard, then I don't think marriage has to be hard. I think that it's again, not to use the metaphor again, but losing weight is harder than maintaining your weight. And I really think, look, you're gonna have challenges. You're not necessarily gonna have fights. You're gonna have challenges. Life is gonna throw challenges in your way. Illness, adversity, career issues, day-to-day miscommunications with each other. If you're not paying attention, those things get huge. And then the big, big things happen. So people come in and they go, I'm getting divorced because he's sleeping with his secretary. you are. That's a great reason to get divorced and that's a legit thing. He's sleeping with his secretary because there's something wrong in the marriage. If you don't want to look at that because you have some culpability in that and it's easier to just go oh, this harlot came and took him away and it's a lot easier to say that. But the truth is you stopped paying attention. This is the question I find myself when I have a minute with a client who I've been some miles with. And we're sitting outside of the courtroom waiting for the case to be called. And I have enough of a rapport with them and we've been enough of a distance together that I feel like I can be candid with them. I'll say to them, was there a moment where you realized your marriage was over? What was that moment? And you would be amazed at the insight if people think about that question that they give to you. I had a woman who said to me, and it was a to me, a very powerful example. I discussed a little bit in the book. She said there was a kind of granola that she liked, and you could only get it at a certain store, like a Whole Foods or something like that. And her husband used to always buy it. He used to buy it whenever she was running low. She would just open the cabinet and there'd be another bag of it there. And she loved that because he didn't say, oh, look, honey, I bought your granola. I get credit for that. You know, like, he just.
But do it.
He just saw that this was something that he was paying attention. He just saw that there was this little thing, it was this little kindness that he showed her that let her know she was important to him. He was still kind of trying to woo her without being obvious about it, and he was still paying attention. And she said, then one day she just ran out of the granola and it wasn't there. So she thought, oh, well maybe he's like busy and he just didn't notice. So she kind of left the bag out and, you know, Sure enough, he still didn't replace the granola. And she said she had a tangible memory. It was about a year before the actual divorce. But she said she had a tangible memory where she thought, okay, this is over. You know, this thing is over now. And I think that that's the thing. That's kind of, if you boiled my book down, one of the things I say to people is, there's this thing in every relationship, some little thing that you did for your partner or some little thing that you just had to tell them, that at some point you just stopped telling them.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know if it's just in the morning saying like, God, you're so pretty when she walks by, or if it's her saying to you like, you know, I love your strong arms or whatever it might be. Like there's just those little things like we just want someone cheering for us. We just want, why do we get together? We want connection. We just want connection. Like there's no other reason to get married other than wanting connection. So those little disconnections, that's the ad, you know, and that's it's death by a thousand paper cuts, you know? And that's the challenge for me is that's what people need to sort of find their way to connect to again.
Why is it you have the credibility to give so many women advice? You're only 27, right? And why should they listen to you when, you know, you're a man, should they even trust you? You know, you're not married, right?
No, no.
And you're currently single, I believe, right?
Single.
So why should they believe what you're saying has validity?
Firstly, that you're right in the sense that being a man gives me no extra credibility whatsoever. I always cringe when a journalist says to me, well, this is so great because you're a guy, so you can give them insight into guys. I think what a stupid argument that is. It's like saying you're a woman, so you know all women.
Right.
How many women are exactly the same?
Yeah, yeah.
You know how many women do you get in a room and they agree? agree on everything. The, the same is true of men. I'm not, I don't, I'm not here to speak on behalf of all men. Sure. I might be here to relay a message that I constantly get from men or something that I observe with an enormous number of men. I mean, I, I say to women, I only started working with women a, because they asked me to. I, I didn't. When, when I was coaching guy, I coached nearly 10, 000 guys, and women were saying, when are you going to do the same thing for us? And I, I he said, I don't know because I don't really know you. I know men. Not because I'm a guy, but because I've just coached 10,000 of them over the last three years. I said, so I have something to say about men? I said, But I don't know you. And they said, Don't worry, we don't.
Want to know more about us.
We don't want to know about men. So I said, well, that I can do. And I sat down and I started talking about some things that felt obvious to me based on what I'd learnt from men, but weren't obvious to them. You know, a very simple thing would be that there were so many women out there that were saying, well, I, I want a guy who has the balls to make a move on me.
Right.
And, and if he's interested, he's already coming over to me. And there were certain, there were massive dating books out there for women that would say this, like, if he's not coming over to you, don't bother going up to him, because if he wanted to be there, he would be this defied everything that I'd ever seen, not just from every man I'd ever coached, but from growing up around men and what and, and, and even for myself, this is an area where my personal experience does relate to that lesson. I was terrified. I was terrified. The idea of walking up to a woman and saying, I like you or I think you're cute. I got brought up by my mum to be a gentleman, right? That, that was, I was brought up to, You know, buy flowers, buy the meal, don't ever let her pay, don't ever let her carry her bag, open her door. So at school, as a teenager, I got mauled by women for being that way. You know, I got walked all over. They liked me, they thought I was a nice guy, but I was the one holding their bag while they got with that guy. So it didn't translate. And I knew as a guy, as a teenager, something wasn't clicking. And something about what I'd been taught about attraction by my mom, who taught me treat every woman like a princess. Yeah. Something about that advice wasn't translating and wasn't working.
Now, I.
Then when I started hearing from these books written for women, if he's like, if he likes you, he's already talking to you. I. I looked at that and I thought, God, you know what? I'm not. I'm not a loser. I'm not someone who's got everything going wrong in their life and is like, you know, oh, that's why he hasn't got the confidence. No, I was like a guy who had some great things going for him and yet still I would look over there and go, no way. I'm not doing it.
Scary, man.
Terrifying. So, you know, I started to say to women, listen, firstly, guys, even the guys you want are nervous about coming over to you. So you might have to do a little more to make this a possibility.
Because they feel good about themselves, comfortable to come over.
Correct. And women will say, well, no, that's not true, mate. you know, there are, there are these guys who always hit on me when I go out. Yeah, but it's the same 5% every time. Yes.
Right.
There's five to 10% of guys who will hit on everybody who walks in the room.
Yeah. Right. But that's not representative.
And they're not getting the girls.
Right.
Very often they're not. They're not. There's a percentage of those who are like players who are good at it.
Yeah.
Who know how to do it. But the game, actually, most guys aren't in that mode. Most guys aren't good at doing that. And, and actually don't wish to do that because they don't want to be sleazy and they don't want to seem like that guy.
So.
I started saying, women, you might have to do a little bit more. And don't assume, because in a seminar, any woman who comes to my seminar will see this, I'll say, put your hand up if at some point or another you've said or thought, well, if he doesn't have the balls to come and approach me, I don't think he's my type of guy anyway. And like 90% of the hands go up. So I say, here's the thing, as a guy, when you live in a city, you probably see 30 women a day that you're attracted to.
Yes.
Right?
You can't go up to every one of them.
You can't go up to every one of them. Every one of them, nor would you wish to, nor is it convenient to, and sometimes you just see a woman standing with her friend and you're like, oh, do I really want to go and approach her in front of her friend and have the possibility that she's got a boyfriend and I'm gonna have.
To do it again? Would you get rejected? You don't want to go do it again. It's horrible.
So I would like, I would say to them, if out of those 30 women that a guy sees in a day, he's gonna approach the one that makes it slightly easier for him to approach her than the other 29.
One that says, It's okay for you.
To talk to me. Correct. However she chooses to do that and that doesn't mean you making some big grand move. It just means I call it, you know, I call it dropping the handkerchief. When you, you know, women who say, I'm old fashioned, I don't make the first move. I always say, then you're not old fashioned. Because a hundred years ago, a woman would walk past a guy, drop her handkerchief and keep walking. The guy would see it, he'd say, this is an extraordinary opportunity to be a man. He'd pick up the handkerchief. Rescue the girl. Walk it over to her and say, Madam, you dropped this. and she'd say, did I? And they'd now have a conversation. Now he thought it was his idea.
Yes, and she was clumsy.
She chose him. So I say to women, listen, this isn't about reversing roles here and you suddenly doing the guy's job. It's about you doing what women have always done and dropping the handkerchief. You just need to know how to do it in 2015.
So that's, so what are some ways to do it? What are two or three ways that a woman could do this? to create an opportunity for a conversation to happen.
Right. So one of them is really, really simple. There was actually a book written by a guy called, I think, Richard Wiseman. It was called 59 Seconds. But one of the studies in the book that wasn't done by him, it was done by, I think, Jocker and Landy, was about the psychology of favors. And what they found years ago when they did this study, they were looking for the obvious, right? If I do you a favor, you'll like me more.
Yes.
What they actually found was, if I do you a favor, I'll like you more. Because we like people that were able to help in some small way. The only caveat was that the favor couldn't be something that was difficult to perform. If you ask me something that's difficult, I could get annoyed, right? And frustrated. If you ask me something that's easy for me to do and I get to help you in some way, I actually end up liking you more. So the The psychology when done in the direction of man to woman is much more powerful because men have these two instincts, provide and protect. So now when a woman comes up and asks for a favor, he immediately gets to cater to those two male instincts that make him feel important. So the advice goes like this, if you walk up to a guy and you say, use this one first line and it will work time and time again. You say, I could really use your help with something. That one line is gonna have nine out of ten guys immediately receptive to whatever you say.
Because they wanna provide and protect.
Yeah, anything. Tell me how I can feel important right now. So I could really use your help with something now.
It could be answering a question, it could be anything. Right.
Directions. Let's say you're in a bar and you say, Could you hold my jacket for two seconds while I give these drinks to my friends? I'm running out of hands here. You then take your drinks, you give them to your friends, you come back, you take your jacket and you say, Thank you so much, you're a gentleman. How's your evening going anyway? Now, the beauty of this is rather than having to go up to him randomly and saying, How's your evening going? which makes it feel like you've really chosen him. In this Example, he's doing you the favor. You're just politely asking how his evening is going after he's already done the favor for you. So that's an easy way for women to drop the handkerchief in any environment and never have, they never have to risk rejection with that because there's nothing for him to reject. It's just a simple favor.
Wow. Okay, so that's number one. So that's maybe one more.
That's number one. Let's think of a good one here.
This.
This kind of goes alongside it. I mean, you could ask a guy's opinion, for example. You could say, you know. No, in fact, here's a good one. When you're with your friends and you see a group of guys, simply walk up to them and say, we're trying to guess what people's jobs are by what they're wearing.
That's cool.
And then start guessing. Everyone loves this game because you have fun guess.
You could.
And again, you can, you can start in a funny way and say you're a spy, but whatever it is, play with it a little. But then the nice thing is they, they immediately know how to carry on that conversation because they're gonna do it back.
Now, for guys who are experiencing this and they see a woman who creates an opportunity to talk to them, and now it's their responsibility to kind of continue the conversation, right? And to show that, okay, now I am interested.
So this is a really important part. This is really important because there is a mistake people make here. And I realized this early on because I was giving women this way to go and be proactive with guys in a way that they hadn't been before. But they were making the mistake of staying in there too long.
Oh, right. So don't stick around.
No, no, no. There's a, think of it this way. In order to give someone the opportunity to hit on you in the first place, you need to close the gap. So when a woman goes in and says, I mean, there's another one I'll give you. If you're, you know, this one's always pay attention to what's going on around you. And if nothing else, say the obvious. So you could be in a bar, you know, lining up for a drink. And you say to the guy next to you, oh, my God, it's so busy in here. All right, that's it. By the way, you're not saying it's so busy in here. you're saying it's okay for you to talk to me. That's really what you're saying. So in that moment, again, if you wanted to make it more flirtatious, you'd say, oh, my God, it's so busy in here. It's you with your big shoulders move. And then you'd push him, and then you immediately you're gonna have some great tension. He's gonna feel manly. But the. The key thing is, don't then stay in there. I was in LA recently, and there were. I was with two buddies, and three women came over. and started talking to us. Now, I can't fault that because that's why I help people to do that. I think it's important. I think they did the right thing. But what they could have changed is when they came over to speak to us, they stood facing us with their feet pointed towards us in a circle, and then there was no sign of them leaving ever.
They were just committed to being there.
You know when someone's body language says, I'm not going anywhere.
Yeah.
And it immediately makes you nervous because you sort of think, Oh, you're like, how am I gonna get out of this situation?
You're not interested in them. You don't wanna be in it.
And a woman knows this feeling much better than a man, because when a woman is approached by a guy, she can't even concentrate on whether she's attracted to him if he's too much in her space to begin with. He needs to give her space to observe him and decide she's attracted to him before he keeps just going and going and going. So these women would have been better off to maybe a minute in, just turn and talk to each other again. They don't have to go to the other side of the room and make things difficult, but just turn and talk to each other. Or, God forbid, there's another person there that they turn to and ask something of. What they've done is close the gap, but then recreated space. So the second step of recreating space is very, very important because when they recreate space, it gives us a chance to observe them A chance to miss them and a chance to think, oh, how do we get them back over here? So now when we go over there and say, by the way, I was thinking about what you said just now and keep talking for them, it's like, ah, okay, that's like now they've made a move. Now they've chosen to be in the situation instead of us just choosing to be there and never knowing if they were really attracted.
That's what needs to happen for women is they need to field chosen as well.
Correct. Correct. So it's kind of like you, you're choosing him to begin with so that you're not just randomly choosing from the pool of guys that are brave enough or obnoxious enough to run up to you. But at the same time, you're not, you're giving it space so that he can choose you and you can be confident in that process, whether you're dating.
Or in a marriage and creating day apart, days apart, weeks apart. And has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay growing, if it's months apart or something.
So the first question is how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David Whyte this week when we had a conversation together. And he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.
Not always having to speak or...
Yes, or the importance of being able to be with yourself. while being in the presence of the other.
What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the room.
Could be that, could be that you go away for a few weeks because you want to go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in. It's the notion that, or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself, but that you stay in dialogue with yourself and a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.
When you mean silent with yourself, do you mean like not speaking at all for part of this time? Or you just mean...
But you're taking it literally. It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it. So, I'll explain the context. Our conversation was called, because that's your question about how important is distance. I would say distance is very important in a relationship. But the way I define it is this: every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness, connection and independence, every relationship. In every relationship there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness. One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both, but we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality.
It might evolve seasonally, too. Completely.
So we need connection and we need distance. We need the things that are joined and together and we need the things that are separate. The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship. So when you ask how long can we be apart, it depends what you do with the space in between. If you keep the space in between alive, we are away, we have been together five, six years and you have to go do a project and you're gone for three months. but during those three months you have a whole letter writing experience where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication. Every two days or so at night you sit down and you write a letter, not just what you've done, the catch up of the day, but then you create an aliveness to that space in between that can be even richer than when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every morning.
That's interesting. That's powerful, yeah. What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships that you had to face yourself?
Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband Jack when I was 22.
You're what, 35 now?
Yes, I like it. And actually 35 years together, yes.
Oh, really? 35 years together.
Married, married. Wow. Together even more than that.
Wow, that's powerful.
You know, but I probably swallowed the romantic ideal quite a bit as a young girl too. Are you gonna meet the right man with this man? If you meet the right person, you will never feel alone again. You will never feel lonely. You will never be sad. Seriously, you know, whatever you feel, you will feel again. until some of it you may feel until you drop dead. But if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths.
How long did it take for you internally to let that go or evolve or heal those minutes?
Ah, yeah, I would say the first decade. you know, it's slowly over time you begin to, you know, you begin to realize that I think, you know, he was, I looked up to him. I still look up to him. He's a very smart guy. And I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him.
Interesting.
Is this smart? Is this good? Can I publish this?
Getting approval.
Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.
Interesting.
That was the first ten years.
Yeah, no, maybe a little bit less than ten, but certainly five years.
Okay.
Certainly five years. I really needed him to validate. Check everything I would write and to validate and say it's good. Because he had the PhD. I don't, you know, the whole... And then finally I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write. He said that. I'm not gonna be your priest.
You gotta work here, yeah.
And I was just like, oh, who's gonna help me? Who's gonna help me? And beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition. Mating in Captivity was written completely on my own.
Without his approval of every chapter.
I had an editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer It was not an emotional dependency. It was a professional relationship. So that was a major transition. I think also understanding the difference between equality and equity.
What is the difference?
It's not 50-50.
The relationship is not 50-50. No. No relationship.
No, it's a hundred to hundred, you know, and complementarity. There are certain things that I will never do that I rely on him and certain things that he will never do and he relies on me and they balance each other out. And there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity, you know, if I want to go do something, it's just go do, enjoy, be the best, you know, this complete generosity. And that generosity towards distance or freedom or individuality, this is a very important thing. So here's a question for you and for your listeners as well. Ask yourself, you can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love. To me that was a very important question. I understood early on that I needed freedom. No, I remember it differently. I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.
You needed freedom. I needed more than insecurity.
So I understood early on that I'm gonna be self-employed. Meaning, I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is gonna come from, but I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation.
This was back in the 80s, right?
Yes, yes. This is my 20s, early 20s. But then I applied it to relationships.
Interesting.
I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, go do your thing. And someone who says to me, go do your thing. More than someone who does this.
But back then, that wasn't really, you know, thought of that much, was it? It wasn't really as acceptable or maybe, I don't know, people didn't really think that way, or did they? Look, maybe the US was different.
No, but you also need, you know, the same way that I said to you, sexuality changes in a relationship. when you have contraception, well, freedom changes in a relationship when you have economic independence for women.
Interesting.
Otherwise, you know, if the woman cannot conceive of her life separately from her.
Partner, then what happens?
And that, at that time, primarily male partner, but I would say all partner, then you cannot talk about freedom because that means you can't leave. It means that you continuously depend on the person and the law supported that. It's a legal issue. It's not just a psychological issue. Economic independence is an economic dependence on the part of women and mothers was legal. It wasn't just a statement of her ambitions.
Interesting. Do you think more people are able and wanting to get divorces now because both parties have economic independence and you don't need to stay because someone is providing or paying certain bills that you can provide for yourself and either party.
So divorce went up in the United States when women entered the workforce in a way that they could support themselves economically.
Was that because the law changed? Was that because they were more independent financially or because they were off doing other things and other there were maybe distractions.
Because of economic independence, which would allow them It's a few different things legally. It's alimony so that children continue to be cared for.
Right.
And she's not entirely responsible for them or she doesn't lose them and they go with the father. So now we're in the reverse side and you know, the tension is on the other side, but it's a few pieces. It's being destitute, it's losing your children, it's not having anybody to care for you. and it's not being protected by the law. Those four things need to combine with having an economic independence that then allow you to not be destitute, be able to take care of your children, not rely on your partner in case they don't support you or can't support you, et cetera. So that is the history of divorce. You can't separate the history of divorce from the economic changes and the legal changes around family policy.
How long do you think people should date before they get married? To really know like if they're giving themselves the best chance for not divorce, let's say.
Depends how they date. If their dating is a, you know, service level. Exactly, a parading of the best things of me, then it doesn't matter how long it doesn't change. You know, but I would say that the dating, The most important pieces of dating, I think the dating is really bizarre at this moment because most people, because you date and you date alone. You see the person alone when in fact you learn so much more from seeing people in social situations.
You mean with their friends or family?
Bring your person on date too to people. You know what I did? I had a dinner at my house and it was a bunch of single people. And then one of them at one point said, I actually need to, you know, they were talking about relationships and long term and how do you know all these questions that you're asking me? And at one point one of them said, well, I actually need to go because I have a blind date. So I said, where are you going? Exactly. What are you gonna do? Sit in a noisy bar where you can't hear each other? Bring them over. You know so much more. And anyway, she was really bold. She did it. The guy came too, so everybody's doing their part. And there's about 12 of us there.
And.
He shows up, and we just tell him, we're in the middle of this conversation.
That's crazy.
And then I, you know, but the point was, you know how much we learned about this guy? She learned about him, but we all did too.
We learned a lot.
A lot.
Who he was, in the family, where he's from, and he's thinking about couples, and he I mean, seriously, he... And.
He was adventurous, he was willing to come and be a part of this experiment.
The whole thing. And I actually ran into this woman a few years later.
Were they still dating or not?
No, they didn't date, but she never forgot it, and neither did he, and neither did I.
Right.
You know, bring people you meet in your circle. First of all, your friends see things that you don't see.
Yeah.
And they often don't want to tell you, see it and they know you. Second of all, you'll see how a person interacts with the social circle rather than in this kind of dissociated space. So I think that this notion of we sit alone, we sit alone, and only later do we begin to introduce.
Each other is months later. Let me introduce him to the family. Let me introduce him after after six months sometimes. And then like, huh, I don't like this, this and this, but now you're already developing something.
I asked my boys, you know, I said, did your friends meet her? Who knows her?
No one.
You know, I mean, you make sure.
They expose them to people quickly. Yes, yes.
And you don't have to go and get them checked. It's not that you can go and to, you know, go to a concert, share some activity together. But you will learn about people not in a vacuum. We learn about people in social situations. You learn about people in how they treat the cab driver, the waiter, the dry cleaner, the person on the street, the homeless person, the policeman, everybody.
And a relationship between a man and a woman, what is the biggest problem that you see today that women face that are holding them back from staying in a healthy relationship? And what's the biggest problem that men are faced with and them being happy with their partner? They're in a relationship.
So, I always talk about healing and I do believe that healing is the number one biggest issue. But I want to take a different angle here. I think that another huge issue that both men and women are facing from women's standpoint is really understanding that men are different in how we think, how we behave, how we're overall wired. And the same thing goes for women, I mean for men. So, essentially men lacking an understanding of the emotional state or the emotional side of women and not knowing how to tap into that or navigate through that. Whereas she also struggles with trying to navigate through his logical side and how he goes about things and disconnect because both sides are expecting the other to understand them where they are, all right. And they're not trying to understand the other person. And so, we get caught up in our own feelings, our own perceptions of things and that creates this huge fight, this huge battle rather than really learning how the other side operates.
This is going to be an oversimplified question or response that you have because each person is unique. But I want you to fill in the blank. If a woman understood X about a man, they would be happy in their relationship.
The simplicity of a man, they would be happy.
If a woman understood the simplicity of a man, they would be happy in their relationship. They would have less stress, they would have less arguments, they would have less pain, suffering. What does it mean to be the simplicity of a man.
So, there's a few things one, a lot of women overthinking, overanalyzing their relationships. And so, a simple example I gave in one of my videos is like let's say a guy says she said ask the man what do you want for your birthday? And he says listen, let's just watch a movie together, have some pizza, drink some liquor, I'm good have some sex that's all I need for the night. And the woman thinks let me get him a wallet.
He's like no, I didn't ask for that.
Exactly.
It's so simple, he's telling you exactly what he wants. The words coming out of his mouth is what he means. The problem is so many women have been conditioned to dealing with liars and manipulators, dealing with men who are playing games that when they are with a good man who's being forthcoming and honest, they don't know how to take that. And also because women are very... They're in the details, all right. So, they are going to see what you need they're going to analyze and say, okay, I can get this for him. They're more thoughtful in their approach, they go deeper, which is why they become so frustrated with us because we don't. When we don't understand that when they said I'm okay, that they really weren't okay, that bothers them. When they told us we don't want anything for Valentine's Day, but they really wanted something and we didn't get that, that bothers them. Because it's like, why aren't we looking deeper? Why aren't we learning them and being more in tune with them? because that's how they are with us. And so again, it's a disconnect of we operate very differently but if they would just understand we're very simple. And the man who wants to be with you, who wants to love you is being very plain and clear. If you would just honor and accept that it would make things so much easier.
And if a man knew X about a woman they would have a happy life.
What's the right word? It really goes back to understand that her emotions... I'm trying to find the right way to phrase this but it's really understanding the emotional side of the woman. And what I mean by that is again, if you're with a woman let's say you guys are walking down the street and she says I don't feel safe right now, all right. To a man we may analyze the area and say well, there's nothing of danger here what's your problem? You're crazy. No, don't do that. If she says I don't feel safe, you have to understand how she feels. That's her emotion right now and her emotion is reality to her. She may not be able to explain it, it may be something within her, within her spirit. But as men we make a mistake of dismissing it because it doesn't line up with our logic. And now it's you're crazy, you're this, you're that rather than no, try to understand she's feeling like this for a reason. and even if we can't always explain it, honor it. Now, the man's concern is well, now she can manipulate you and play you because even when it doesn't make any sense she can say I feel this way. But if you're with a good woman and she's been good to you in every other way, why question that she's playing games now? Give her the benefit of the doubt. So, I think if we would just learn to embrace what her emotions are at the moment we would be able to have more peace because again, a lot of fights come from you're trying to force your logic onto her. She's trying to tell you how she feels right now. And it's like this, no, meet her where she's feeling right now. Acknowledge that say, okay, you know what? I understand it let's handle it from that perspective.
Why is it so hard for... Let's talk about men in this situation to acknowledge someone's feelings when in the man's mind, You might be acting crazy. These feelings are irrational. Why would I acknowledge irrational feelings when there's nothing to be afraid of in this moment? If that's what a man is feeling. How do they get out of that space and say, okay, this is irrational. In my mind, maybe this is seem crazy because I don't feel this personally. How does a man learn to connect on that level so that they feel safe in that moment? Even if it is. irrational.
So, three things it's going to be awareness. Why did I just lose my train of thought for the second one? Awareness, I'm missing the second one and then communication at times when things are not chaotic, all right. So, the problem is you can't be trying to have this full deep discussion at this... If you feel like she's being irrational, if you feel like this is not making any sense, now you're trying to have this deeper discussion that maybe she's not ready to have at the moment. moment, all right. She's feeling all over the place who knows what's triggering her right now. Wait till things are calm and now let's revisit what happened the other day.
Don't fix it when it's not when it's chaotic.
Exactly, it's almost like you know, sometimes a woman doesn't want you to fix it she wants you to listen and acknowledge how she feels. And so, we can talk about we can revisit it at a different time but in that time she needs you to embrace where she's at Emotionally.
What if the man is just like, it doesn't make sense. You're making no sense right now. What you're saying is irrational, maybe it's illogical, it's crazy, none of it makes sense. How do they wrap their heads around the madness of the emotion that is not real to them?
It really is a, this is, oh, it's about practice. So that was the second part. Awareness practice, communication. the practicing of it is just simply understanding listen, it doesn't always have to make sense, all right. What does it hurt you in that moment to just be more compassionate and considerate of how she's feeling even if it doesn't line up with your logic right there? You know I'm saying and again, we can revisit this and use it as a moment to now learn more about each other. But right now is not the time.
So, tomorrow three days later we can say hey, listen, you know that time when we were walking down the street and you were afraid nothing was around can we talk about that?
Exactly, exactly. And now, we can gain better understanding because at that moment it may be easier for her to articulate it. But in the moment of her emotions running all over the place it's going to be hard for her to get it out clearly. Not because she's trying to be difficult it's just she's feeling all over the place it's just hard. It's like think about a child and I'm not trying to reduce women to children, but think about a child being in their frantic moment, something happening to them and you're saying tell me what's wrong. They can't tell you. It's hard for them to say it. But once they're calmed down and at a better place, they can.
Absolutely.
So, we just have to be... We got to be patient as well. We got to be patient with each other and give grace. We're going to have moments where yeah, it may not make sense but again, overall, if you're with a good woman, why act like she must be, she's being difficult or evil right now?
You know, there's a lot of good women. Speaking of good women, there's a lot of good women out there that are friends of mine who are single. They've been single for years. I'm thinking of a few of them specifically in my mind. I'm going to speak to these women's archetype because I think there's a lot of women like this out there. They've been single for They haven't been in a, they've been dating, but they haven't been in a committed long-term relationship for a while. Good women, they make their own money, they're independent, they're kind, they're compassionate, they're loving, they've got their own vision, but they're struggling in finding the right guy who will commit. What do you think is missing from those women? Or is this a timing thing? Maybe it's like, hey, you've been trying this for eight, 10 years and you haven't found someone. maybe it's still timing, maybe they haven't showed up in your life yet. But if they're going on dates, they're doing these things and they still haven't been able to find a partner that feels like a good match, the right match. What's missing from them or is nothing missing?
It's hard to say because you know without knowing them individually the issues can vary. You know, I'll tell you what I've seen as common barriers for women. One of the most common and they may not like hearing this but one of the most common is a lacking of being in touch with their feminine side. And that only really plays a huge role depending on the type of man they desire. If they desire a very masculine man, man who has his stuff together, a guy who can be a leader at least has those qualities then not being in your feminine is going to work against you. You're going to come across more difficult you're not going to come across as someone that's peaceful. And again, I think every man, every man who has stuff going on for himself can say what he needs almost most importantly or at least near the top is peace. Every man needs peace.
Oh, man, I've been saying that my.
Whole life, you know?
Peace.
And so, if he does not view you in that way because again, you project more masculine energy, you project more resistance, more of a difficult difficult nature, he's not... You could be the most beautiful amazing woman it's like... And he may want to sleep with you but he's not going to want to take you serious or marry you. So, that can be one problem. Another thing can be timing, you know, it's a lot of times is you... We have to understand everything doesn't happen tomorrow, there is a process to this. But in that timing what's important is that you don't drag on with the wrong men.
Yes.
A lot of women reduce their time or reduce their window of opportunity staying with the wrong guys. Staying dating even the wrong guys. So, it doesn't have to be a committed relationship, it could just be you're dating and getting to know each other, but you knew after a couple days that he wasn't it. And yet, you're still letting it continue and what... Even though you're not fully committed in this relationship as an official boyfriend girlfriend, you're emotionally invested invested and your ability to now be available to someone else is severely hindered. So, you're not going to be able to meet that great guy or that great guy may come across you here that you're dating this guy and say, I'm not even going to bother with that. Yeah. And so, that hurts you. So, timing is it but you have to make sure you're leaving yourself available.
Here's a question do we stay in relationships longer when we haven't fully healed the past?
Hell yes.
Absolutely. I probably raised my hand here for pretty much every past relationship where I have known at different levels like something's not right, something's off. Okay, let's work on it. Let's try to make it work. Still things are off. It's like you have a knowing inside and sometimes you try to force it to make it work. and I'm as one to blame as anyone here. And what I realized is like, oh, I haven't fully healed certain things, and it's why I've stayed in the past in relationships much longer than I probably should have. But I was afraid. I was afraid of hurting someone. I was afraid of hurting myself. I was afraid of whatever. And when I started to learn that, like, this is something you talked about over and over, that the healing process is the key process to build a foundation for the potential for a great relationship, for something to flourish.
Yes.
You want to have, you know, the dream is to have a rainforest of an environment in your relationship where things can grow, things can flourish. There's green trees around you, there's waterfalls, not an environment of a desert where things go to die in the relationship. Yes. And I don't think we can truly allow things to grow if we don't learn to heal. and that's something that you taught me years ago and you teach so many people around the world this. But if people don't even think they need to heal something, how do they do it? They can't.
There's no way you can't overcome an obstacle you don't believe exists.
Right.
You know, I'm fine.
I got this. Nah, I've dealt with this stuff in the past. Like, that was me. Exactly.
And so the problem is most people don't heal until they hit a wall. until something knocks them on their behind and now they have to see things differently and accept the issues that they've been holding on to. But also I think the problem for a lot of individuals is they're not healed and they're in environments with people who haven't healed either. And now those unhealed people are going to validate your issues, they're going to validate your unwillingness to face those things.
This is so hard because whatever guy friends, girlfriends, whoever you are, and you lean on people and say, this person did this, and they validate you and say, leave them, they're no good for you. You deserve better. You don't deserve that. They shouldn't be doing this, right? They start to validate to be on your side, but they're not healed either if they're coming from that place. Maybe they're correct on certain things, but it's learning how to communicate to your friends, in a healthier way probably also.
Well, I think yes, because a lot of people they tell their friends the bad and they don't always tell them the good. So, the friends have a very skewed perception of the relationship or whatever situation that you're facing. But we also have to be aware enough to understand who we're seeking guidance from. Like, I may speak to my friends because I need to at the moment or I want some feedback, but I'm fully aware that they are not the end all be all to this, that they may be speaking from their own hurt place. I still can filter their perspective through the understanding of they're not healed enough to give me full proper great guidance, all right. But they might give a perspective that I needed to look at and that's why I will still talk to them. because I want to hear different perspectives. I want to make sure I'm not missing any blind spots here, all right. So, it's good to talk to different people but only if you understand how to not just take them as oh, well, my friend said this so this is it. No, your friend may be broken too and they're going to lead you down an even more broken path.
Exactly, so the conversations you have with some people they're not healed and they're not helping you fully because they're validating something that you don't need to hear necessarily. Maybe some of it is right, but not all of it.
And not to mention it can happen in other ways as far as like, I've seen people where the friend was in a toxic relationship that they were unwilling to leave. So, now when their other friend came to them about their toxic relationship is oh, you know, give them a chance. Oh, you know, cheating happens in every relationship. They'll come up with all these validations to stay because they can't look themselves in the mirror and tell themselves to walk away. So, how are they going to tell you to do it? All right. Now, some people can do that. Some people can still tell you opposite of what they're going to actually are willing to do. But a lot of people consciously or subconsciously are trying to validate how they would handle things or how they have handled things, all right. So, if it's I would leave because someone called me out there, out my name one time, then I have to tell you that you got to leave for that reason. I can't tell you to be considerate of well, maybe it was a mistake, maybe this can be fixed. Oh, no, no, no. Because I drew that line, you need to draw that line. A lot of people don't understand how to give that unbiased advice. So, that's why you have to be very careful going to friends and family.
Healing is again, a lot of Clarity comes through healing. You'll be able to see things differently in a relationship if you are from a healed place. I think a lot of us, myself included, have stayed in relationships longer than necessary because we haven't healed something yet. And that's why we stayed in them.
So.
Would you say that people who have healed and addressed the past, the traumas of the past, the pains of the past are much quicker to get out of a dating situation when they realize, oh, this isn't for me. Like, I thought it was gonna work out, but I don't need to keep trying for months and years to try to make it work. It's not working, I'm willing to walk away. Would you say people healed are able to do that better?
Absolutely. Basically, the more healed you become or when you have become healed, your willingness or ability to tolerate toxic energy is diminished. You don't know how to operate or how to stay in those environments any longer because now you see things so much clearer. It's almost like like if you were to detox your body and start to eat healthy. Now, you go back to eating some fast food and it will destroy your stomach. So, your willingness to eat that bad food is no longer there or at least it's diminished because now your body knows what healthy feels like, all right. So, emotionally once you get to a healthy place and you know what healthy is, you can't tolerate dysfunction as much anymore. You can't talk someone who does not want to face their issues. You know, it reminds me right now real quick of even when it comes to business or you know what, even when it comes to fitness. A lot of people once they've achieved great success or once they've achieved giving that body they always wanted, they look at those who do not have differently. Before, they may have been in that pool of people that said, my circumstances, there's nothing I can do it's too hard. But once you've achieved it and you knew what work it took to get there, now it's like no, you're just unwilling. You don't have enough desire to push past the obstacles to get the results you're looking for. And so again, when you become healthy your willingness to tolerate this person just can't get past their issues it's like no, because I got past mine. I know what it takes, I know you can get there if you're willing, but so many are not willing.
Let's say you got in a relationship, you got married, you've been committed for a while, and neither of you have healed. But then one of you decides, you know what? This isn't working. I gotta heal the pain from the past. They go on that journey, they get relief, they find peace in their heart, they're not triggered, whatever it is. They've started and have continually been on the healing process, but the other person continues to be in their own traumatic past experiences. What if they're not willing to heal? Would you recommend, like, is that where they should be able to work still? Are you able to find ways to say, well, we still love each other and we have a lot of chemistry and connection most of the time. What would you say about that? If the other person's unwilling to heal?
I hate to say this, But I have to be honest, all right. I can never encourage someone to remain in a toxic situation, all right. I do think that we can take an approach that says let's see if we can work this out let's give them a little bit of grace here. And the main thing is can we achieve progress, all right. Rome isn't built in a day and if we've been behaving or we've been tolerating this dysfunction for so many years We can't expect it to be perfect tomorrow, but are you willing to at least start to walk on that path and make progress? Though I don't want to encourage divorce, I cannot feel comfortable telling people to stay trapped in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to face their issues. If you have freed yourself from that, you have healed, they've got to be willing to make a move. And here's the problem, People are afraid to heal or people are afraid to face the issues that requires them to heal, all right. Because you have to... It's like I remember a quote I'm probably saying it wrong. To heal you have to face the pain or you have to dive into the pain something like that, all right. So, people understand it's painful to go and revisit your past. It's painful to let those emotions you've suppressed all these years come back out. And so, now your fear of of healing or facing the process of healing is greater than your fear of losing this person, all right. And they think because you're married to them, you're not going anywhere.
You're stuck for life.
Exactly, so for that reason, that's not enough incentive to face their fear of facing their issues. The only thing that may get them to do it is the threat of divorce or is the actual divorce happening. Again, it's not that I wanted to get to that point I hope and pray everyone could avoid that. But the reality is some people won't get it together until there's a real consequence on the table and that will be divorce in that situation.
So, okay, let's say someone's like you know what, I feel like I'm good it's never been about me it's been about everyone else it's their problems that why the relationship doesn't work.
I got to stop you real quick because this is like hitting in my spirit, I got to say. The other thing to consider is that some people will never change, they will never heal. And the reality is that the person you're with is the wrong person and the only reason you got with them is because you were broken. Had you not been damaged in the first place then you may not be with this individual.
Because you wouldn't have chose someone like this if you were coming from a healed place.
Exactly, and if you were healed you would have been your true self. Your true self may not have aligned with this individual. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some circumstances where people still end up with the right person when they were both not healed. I do think that's possible to happen. But a lot of people I would argue the majority when you... Because I always say if you're not healed you are 99% likely to choose the wrong person. So, I do you still strongly believe that the majority of people are with the wrong individual? And that's marriage, relationship, whatever. Because that brokenness, that damage...
Attracted something else that was...
Exactly. And allowed you to tolerate it or it allowed you to feel safer in that environment. Here's the thing that people don't realize when you have not healed, if you were to get with a healthy person it would essentially demand of you from the jump to basically heal or step your game up. And again, people are afraid to face their issues. So, to get with another broken person subconsciously it validates me staying broken. It validates me not having to face my issues because now we all have issues, you see. As long as we all have issues, I don't have to face mine. But if you have corrected yours, how can I validate my own? So, when I think about compassion, compatibility. I think about a person who is.
Committed to a certain level of growth.
You are not just going together in the future. You are growing together.
Yes.
And so that love has to be about being committed to the same commitment and a certain level of growth.
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