How To Set Boundaries In a Relationship (Try This!) | Lewis Howes
This is a YouTube video titled "How To Set Boundaries In a Relationship (Try This!) | Lewis Howes" created in May 2023. It features a multi-speaker conversation including Lewis AI, Nedra Tawwab, Melissa, Jonathan Haidt, Brene Brown, and Esther Perel discussing family dynamics, setting healthy boundaries, acceptance, and emotional well-being in relationships. The dialogue covers personal experiences, therapeutic insights, and practical advice on managing dysfunctional family relationships and improving communication and self-care.
Chapters
Often we want the other person to do something about it. The person who has exhibited, you know, all of these things, why don't you start being more nurturing? You don't call me more often. The acceptance of that is this person is whatever this thing is. How do I be in this relationship with them or choose not to be in this relationship with them? How do I create closeness? How do I create distance? What can I I do.
What do people, it seems like people have a lot of dysfunction in families.
Because parents are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Siblings are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Aunties and uncles, human beings, have no clue what they're doing. We have an expectation based on their role. We think, oh my gosh, once you become a mother, all of these things. Once you become a father, once you become an uncle, like, you'll know how to communicate with kids. No, I don't know how to kid, you know, like, so these things, these expectations, not that they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it. They don't grow up. They have their own, you know, demons. They're fighting. They aren't emotionally mature. They're not reading a ton of self-help books. They haven't been to therapy. So our expectation of people, sometimes they can't be met. And that's a tough pill to swallow that although this person is a parent, they may not be nurturing. Although this person is a sibling, they may not be supportive. Although this person is your grandparent, they may have another favorite, you know? All of these things that happen in family, I think we think of dysfunction as abuse, neglect. But it's also, you know, when someone dies and everybody's fighting over an inheritance. It's also, you know, having issues with your in-laws. It's also sabotaging your sister's wedding. It's so many things. And that's why I think people identify because You know, so many people in a family, I mean, pick a person. It's like- Someone's messed up, but- yeah, yeah, somewhere. I mean, it's not the nuclear family, but gosh, those cousins. It's somewhere.
Yeah. I love in your dedication you say, We are the answer, not the people we can't control. How do we learn to self-soothe in dysfunctional family relationships? Mm-. Because one, you're talking about addressing, you know, as an adult, the parent or the person that maybe you caused upset or pain, right? It's addressing it and having a conversation, writing a letter. We may not get a good response. Hopefully we do, but we may not. How do we learn to self soothe and mend and heal even when the other person attacks us or blows us, blows up even more?
Acceptance.
That's what I was, yeah. All about acceptance.
But it's such a process. I was talking to a friend the other day who was talking about her relationship with a family member who isn't what she wants that person to be. And she said, I don't know if I accept her. I said, you do, because you don't invite her into spaces that you know she won't fit in. We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better when in actuality it is seeing a person as they are and knowing that you are powerless to change it. So this is my mother, this is my mother and father, this is my sibling. You can want something to be different until the end of time, but this is the situation. Given the situation I have, what do I want to do about it? Often we want the other person to do something about it. The person who has exhibited all of these things, we're like, why don't you get sober? Why don't you start being more nurturing? You don't call me more often. You're not doing this. I had a game and you didn't. It's like, the acceptance of that is this person is whatever this thing is. How do I be in this relationship with them? or choose not to be in this relationship with them. How do I create closeness? How do I create distance? What can I do to change this situation? Because we're often trying to change people who aren't interested in changing. They aren't going to therapy. They aren't reading these books. It's like you getting the enlightenment and being like, oh, they need to change now that I know this term for them. It's like they're a gaslighter. They must change. It's like, they're not reading that book. You're reading the book.
And maybe they don't want to change.
They don't want to change. They're fine with their behavior. So what will you do when they continue to do these things?
Acceptance and boundaries is what it sounds like, right? I remember for years I used to be kind of frustrated with my mom when I was an adult, after 21, let's say. It took me a while to become an adult, but I'd say after 21, I get frustrated with her because I felt like she kept treating me like a child. And I didn't like that feeling and I wanted her to change. And I don't know, 10, 15 years went by, she didn't change. And I expressed my frustrations and all these things didn't change. She looked at me as her little baby, even though I was a grown man at the time. And it was frustrating. and I had to learn to accept her. It wasn't until maybe like five years ago where I fully had like acceptance of my mom, like this is who she is. It's not gonna change, but I can create boundaries and make sure I set a boundary for myself so it doesn't affect me as much and just love her for who she is. And it's been a beautiful experience for me. I feel a lot more joy thinking about my mom, knowing that this is the way she is. And it's okay, as long as I put boundaries in place. But why do you think it's so hard for us to accept the people we love the most?
Because we would rather put the duty of doing the work on others. In the situation you just described with your mother, if she would have changed when you were 21, the easiness.
So much easier, right?
So much easier. But if you had to place a boundary, ugh, the work you had to do. Oh my gosh. We get so upset at people for making us. Why are they emailing me on vacation? Because you're responding. How do you stop responding? You know, the work that we have to do in our relationships with people, it is, it's almost like we get upset with them for making us do the work when really they're just being themselves.
Yes.
If you don't want to be treated like a child, how do you become more of an adult?
Create boundaries.
You create those boundaries. So when your mom is like, tell me about your girlfriend, you're like, I don't, I don't want to talk about it. And then your mom is like, oh, he doesn't have to tell me everything anymore. So it's, it's you doing that work. Your mom can always ask, and you can always place that boundary.
Exactly. Just say, I don't want to talk about it right now, Mom was talking about something else or whatever.
And I need you to wash my clothes. I don't need you to figure out what I'm doing with my, you have to be the person to say that because your mom is operating in the capacity that she knows.
Absolutely, yeah. That's beautiful. What else do you think people get wrong about family dynamics? Siblings, parents, kids, And what else do we need to know about this?
One of the things we get wrong is that if we are honest about what the relationship is, that we will lose our love for the person.
Can you give me an example?
If I say my mother was unkind, that means I don't love her. No, that doesn't mean you don't love her. It just means she was, unkind? Maybe sometimes, maybe all the time. I don't know. But you could still love people who do things to you or who cause you to feel a certain way, and sometimes we don't know that. We think if we say anything bad about someone, it means that we don't love them, that we're betraying them. And both of those things can exist. When I find people talking about their parents, they will say all of these nice qualities because they're trying to make them not seem like a bad person. When we talk about our partners, we'll say, you know, I really love this person. They've been there for me. They always listen to me. And then, you know, like we are trying to say, I really love them, and I don't want to say anything bad about them. And we don't have to protect the truth. We don't have to protect the person from everything that we feel about them. One thing we've been practicing in our house, I have two daughters, and they are at that age where they bicker all the time. And oh, she's annoying. And I say, Everyone in this house is annoying. You, your sister, your dad, the dog, the TV sometimes is too loud. This is normal in relationships. We're not gonna always get it right. And if we have an expectation of perfection, In a relationship, sometimes I'm going to say the wrong thing. And I want you to be able to, you know what? Sometimes you say the wrong thing. Sometimes you're unkind. Sometimes you annoy me. Sometimes, that happens in relationships. And we should be able to talk about the totality of the relationship, not just the good parts. And, you know, they're really amazing in these ways, but, you know, I felt neglected when That really hurt when you said, I wish you would have done more of. Those are also things we should say. Normal part of relationships is having some sort of conflict. We can't watch a movie without a little bit of conflict. I mean, yeah, even a good old rom-com, you need that conflict. Yeah, so it's a part of being in relationship that it doesn't have to be perfect to exist. We can talk about, all parts of it, it doesn't mean that the relationship is bad or we don't want to be in it. It just means that we're being honest.
Where do you struggle the most in your relationships in terms of how you interpret relationships, how you react and respond? You're in this work constantly. You're working with people who are in breakdown, who are struggling, who are, you know, coming to you for guidance. But where do you see that you could grow the most personally in relationships?
I think having more understanding for people who are unwilling to do the work. Because I'm around people constantly who are doing the work. I'm a therapist, so everyone that I see is doing the work. A lot of people that I talk to on podcasts or, you know, in my online community, they're trying to do the work. So to be in personal relationships, where they're like, I'm fine, it's you.
It's hard to be compassionate about that.
It's like, what? We have all of this information available. Yeah, so that piece, that holding that grace of it hasn't always been easy for me. And it takes a lot of self-compassion and grace to get to a point of saying, you know what? I did mess up. And I have to remember that. Because everybody's not in that space. And so some of those personal relationships, it's like, yeah, they're not in that space. And that's okay. I haven't always been in that space. How dare I look down on someone? Look at me now. I'm in a better space. It's like, I get it. It's tough because I wish sometimes I could unsee stuff. You know, it's like, I wish I didn't care about things so much anymore. Like, gosh, I wish that thing didn't make me sad because it was a good life. to not feel some things. Relationships, they were bad, but they were better because you had them. So I think that, you know, this knowing sometimes is like, oh, it's tough.
The awareness.
The awareness.
Consciousness. Seeing it. I hear you. Well, I'm excited about your book, Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. I think a lot of people can relate to experiencing this now or at some point in their life dealing with someone in their family that was maybe unhealthy or just they struggled to really mend certain things. I want people to get this book. You've also got another book that's amazing as well. Get both of them. But again, get this, get this for your whole family so you can go through the practices, the guides, all the tools in here that'll support you, create more emotional peace, create more love, more joy, in your relationships. That's what I believe we're all seeking. We all want, we want more of that. Even if it's familiar to be in chaos, I don't think that's our true nature. That's just familiarity and a comfort zone. But it's time to break free of that. It's time to become drama free and break free of the unhealthy relationships. So I'm very excited about the book. And I want people to get this. Also, where can we go to support you, follow you, Get the book, learn more about these things.
My website, NedraTawwab.com, everything is there. From there, you will be connected to my socials, to workshops, worksheets, everything that I'm doing.
Okay, cool. NedraTawwab.com, we'll have it all linked up. Your Instagram is amazing as well. I love everything you post over there. So make sure you guys go follow on social media as well. I asked you this question before, but we were virtual, so I'm curious if there's a different response. It's a question I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth, many years away. You live as long as you want to live, but it's the last... 200, 500. Doesn't matter to me. And you experience life on your terms. You create what you want. You have the life you want. You write more books. You help more people. Whatever you want to do, you live that life. But for whatever reason, all of your work and your message has to go with you when you pass. This book, social media, AI, whatever you create in the future is gone. So we don't have your words anymore, your message. But you get to leave three lessons behind, three things you know to be true from your experience that you would share as lessons for the world to think about. What would be those three truths for you?
I would say live authentically, create your life and be present.
I love all three of those. Live authentically, create your life and be present. Before I ask the final question, Nedra, I want to acknowledge you again for your light. You bring such a light to the world with your work, with your teaching, with your one-on-one practice, but also the messages you bring to all of us. and I'm so grateful that you are here to be of service to humanity because we need people like you. So I really acknowledge you for your gifts, your unique experiences, your perspective, and your ability to serve in the unique way that you do. It's beautiful. So thank you. My final question is what's your definition of greatness?
Definition of greatness, you know, I think love. Love is the definition of greatness. Without that, you know, what is life?
What do you think are the boundaries that people fail to set the most in these relationships that don't work and that continue not to work over time? What do we fail to set once we realize there's massive breakdowns?
Yeah, I mean, I think, and this is the real challenge, is that when you're in a relationship breakdown or things aren't going well, and I hear stories like this from thousands of people all the time, right? Where it's like, I, in heterosexual relationships, the wife is doing all of the household management and all of the childcare, and the expectations are only placed on her, and it's like she is the default for everything, and she has to ask her husband to help and pitch in, babysit his own kids and she comes to me and says, I don't know what to do in this situation. The challenging thing is that at that point, you can't solve that with a simple boundary. The boundary has to be, I am going to go to therapy myself to explore what my options are. Because at this point, the way this relationship is working is not working for me. But if we go back to some of the things we've talked about even earlier on in a relationship, I think setting a boundary, like right away in a relationship, immediately, even before you start dating, can be a super good litmus test for how well you can communicate. So it's like we're talking about going on a first date and it's like, oh, by the way, I don't drink. So I'd love to meet you for happy hour. I'll just have like a tea and see if there's pressure. See if that is weird. See if they give you like pushback on that. Or you can talk about, you know, before you get intimate, like by the way, you know, this is what I said to my husband, like by the way, you're wearing a condom. And until we both get STD tested and swap tests, that's gonna continue. And if that isn't respected, that's an immediate relationship ender for me. That's it, right? So I think it can be helpful early on to set boundaries and relationships just to see how you discuss them, how you each view them. Do they see it as selfish? And if so, can you have that conversation? Do they push back? How do they handle when you navigate that push back? I think that can be really important.
What about with children? You know, as a parent, I don't have kids yet, so I can't relate to that. I can relate to my experience as a kid being obnoxious to my parents and probably driving them crazy and understanding that it's challenging for parents. How do healthy, conscious parents create healthy boundaries with kids without neglecting their kids emotions, feelings, and needs?
Yeah, I think the two are definitely not mutually exclusive. So I think the first thing that you can do as parents is model healthy boundaries for your kids. So it is me, you know, saying to my husband, like, hey, I need a half an hour of alone time. I'm gonna go to my room. I'll come back out, you know, after I'm feeling a little bit more refreshed. Like, when my son watches us do that, he recognizes that, like, in this family, it's okay to say no, that people don't get mad when you say no, that mom's taking responsibility for her own feelings. So we've been modeling healthy boundaries, but I've had boundaries with my son from the very earliest age and I have set boundaries on his behalf. So one of the earliest boundaries I set with him or for him was when you visit Grandma or Grandpa or Nana and Pop Pop or Auntie Kelly and you don't see them very often, you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. We have to be polite and say goodbye and say thank you, but you can hug, you can kiss, you can wave, you can fist bump, you can make a funny face, you can high five whatever you want, but you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. And so we had this issue once with my mom where she was like, I really want to hug. I haven't seen him in such a long time. I only see him a few times a year. And I'm like, I get it, but he doesn't want to hug you. And you need to respect that. And she did. And I recognized that it was disappointing for her, but also what I taught my son was that you have agency. And if you don't want to hug, you don't have to. And so now, I'll come sit next to him on the couch when he's nine, and he'll be like, Hey, do you want to watch Naked and Afraid and do a little snuggle? And he'll be like, I'd love to watch But I don't wanna snuggle. I'm like, cool, that's fine. Yeah, that's good.
Wow.
So we've raised him in the culture of boundaries, and he feels now comfortable setting boundaries with me. And boundaries really create a sense of safety for kids. They do, because they realize that the adults in their household are taking responsibility for their own feelings, that boundaries are not about pushing other people away. They're about creating that sense of family in a way that works for everybody. and I think they feel really safe to my kid.
And what are the biggest boundaries you've had to create for yourself? Healthy boundaries for you individually, separate from family and loved ones?
Zillions. I think boundaries with yourself are so incredibly powerful because they only rely on one person to hold them.
Right.
And you can immediately reclaim your time, your energy, your capacity, your mental health, your physical space and sense of safety. Like that's an immediate benefit from you setting one boundary with yourself. The challenging thing is that if you don't keep that boundary, like what's going to happen?
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Right?
If you say to yourself, I'm not gonna check my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, which is one of my most beloved boundaries and the one that I've set For many, many years and the one that I still hold to, if I do roll over and check my phone before I go to the gym and do my meditation, like nobody's gonna jump out of the closet and slap the phone.
Out of my hand.
So.
But you're gonna know. I will know. And what's gonna happen is that there will be a massive ripple effect to future Melissa.
Really?
I think about future me all the time. Tell me more. What is the decision that I'm making right now and how is it gonna impact future Melissa? 'Cause current Melissa is gonna be so happy to just like stay up late and not start her bedtime routine and just do like one more, you know, show on Netflix. But what will this mean for future Melissa? She's going to be really mad at herself because she didn't get to bed on time. And then she's going to fall asleep late and then she's probably not going to have as good a night's sleep. And then when she wakes up tomorrow, she's not going to be pumped for the gym and she might even skip it because she's going to be tired. If she skips the gym before she does this interview, she was, she's like, not going to be a good guess because she won't feel grounded and centered. Like when I play it out that way, It makes it a lot easier for me to be like, go to bed, because future Melissa will benefit. So I have boundaries with myself where I'm not checking my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, not checking my phone in like the half hour before bedtime. So I'm not checking Twitter one more time or email one more time. I have really strong boundaries. Like when I'm out of office, I am out of office. Unless something is on fire, you do not call or text me and I will not be checking text messages or emails. So, you know, I think I set boundaries with myself pretty often because I know that they can be like an instant sense, they can give me an instant sense of freedom. And nobody else has to even worry about it.
What's the boundary you set in the last two years for yourself that has given you the most benefit?
I think I've become more rigorous about what I say yes to in terms of work opportunities.
It's good.
It's hard as an entrepreneur not to feel like you have to or should say yes to everything. And like, if I don't say yes to this, maybe they won't ask me again. Or who knows what this lunch or coffee could turn into. But I think, I don't know if we talked about this, but like four years ago, I got a concussion. I'm still going through post concussion symptoms that are triggered by air travel events like this, speaking events, in person events, like any kind of stressor can set my concussion symptoms off. And that forced me to become more rigorous. About what I say yes to. So now again, I kind of have this automatic pause before I say yes to anything. Even something that I think I'm super excited about, it's like quick pause. Can you work this into your schedule? Will you have capacity to do this? What else is this gonna push off your plate and is that acceptable to you? What are the things you're gonna have to make up when you get back home? And then once I think about that, I either say yes or no. And if I say no, It's because again, I know I'm serving future me. I can be disappointed, but I can also be happy that I've checked in with my own needs. So that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple of years, and I think it's made a big difference in my overall capacity.
What boundary are you to set for yourself next year that you haven't done yet?
I don't know. I'm not a New Year's resolution person. I tend to just take on these self-improvement things as I stumble across them. Was I cost them? Yeah, like I started my cold shower experiment, like in February, two years ago, just randomly. So I'm not a New Year's resolution person and there is no one size fits all for boundaries. I won't know what my needs are next year until I get to next year. And then I'm in the moment and I go, you know, my context has changed, my capacity has changed, my goals have changed. Do I still, I'm always reevaluating my boundary. Do I still need a boundary here? And if so, is this the boundary that I need? because they should be flexible and I shouldn't keep a limit in place that no longer serves me. So I don't know. Ask me next year.
What do you see since you've been working through this book for a while now? You've heard a lot of conversations from people, single in relationships, family challenges, different things. What do you see that society needs in general to create better and healthier boundaries around you.
Welcome to my favorite TED Talk.
It's just with social media, with work, with, you know, all the political stuff. Just what do people need in general moving into next year, you think?
I mean, we need honestly so much of the root of why boundaries feels like such an icky subject to so many people. And I will say, especially women, especially moms, is because we have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and toxic masculinity, which comes from the patriarchy, and religious influences and diet culture and trauma and the media. We have been conditioned for my entire life, and even going back further than that, to not have needs. To not have needs. To be selfless. Especially as a mom, we are praised the most when we are putting everyone else's needs and feelings and wants and desires above our own. Like we're not even on our own list. And if we're on the list, we're at the very bottom. And then when we do have a need and we speak it, we either hint about it because we've been told we can't be direct and then we're disappointed that people aren't reading our minds or we're direct about it and we're told that we're selfish or we're called a b*** or any of those other monikers. So we have been conditioned to not have boundaries. societally. And I think there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do around what it means to have needs and to have those needs feel worthy. And the fact that, like, you of, you know, your own volition are valuable enough to advocate for those needs and then to remember that we have the power to advocate for those needs in a way that doesn't involve the other person. If I set a boundary with you, it can't Be dependent on what you choose to do. The boundary I set has to depend on me, the actions that I am willing to take in our relationship to keep myself safe and healthy.
Give me an example around that.
We're in an argument and it starts to get really, really heated. And I say to you, Please don't speak to me like that. It's really making me feel unsafe. I don't like it when you use those words. It's getting personal and we're not focusing on the subject at hand. and you are really mad and really triggered and you kind of keep going with that, right? I can't depend on you to change your communication style. The only thing I can do is say, I won't stay in this argument if this is how we're gonna continue to talk about it. I'm gonna take a 10-minute break. After 10 minutes, I'll come back to see if you're ready. So I can't depend on you. If I go to my family's house and they're talking about politics and we don't agree with politics, I can say, Could we change the subject, please? And if they say no, then I have to enact my boundary, which is, okay, I'm gonna go for a walk.
Yeah, remove yourself.
I'm gonna leave the table, yeah. So all of that to say, we have a lot of unlearning to do about what it means to have needs and to advocate for those needs and to speak clearly and what that means as a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a man to speak clearly and directly, right? A man says it and he's decisive. A woman says it and she's aggressive, there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do, I think, before we can get to the point where we don't automatically think of boundaries as.
Selfish or controlling or manipulative. What I'm hearing you say is the boundary doesn't rely on another person's reaction. Or if they agree to it or not, it relies on you. Yes. Removing yourself in a conscious way from the situation.
Yes.
Independent of how they show up.
Correct. Now, I'm initially going to phrase most of my boundaries as a request.
Yes.
Right, because you didn't know I had a limit. So I'm going to say to you, Hey, I need, I could use a half hour of alone time. Would you mind if I go in my room? Or, you know, would you mind taking the dog for a walk or something?
Right?
And if you say no, then my boundary is to remove myself. So I think that's another common misconception is that, you know, boundaries aren't about telling other people what to do or controlling other people. I may phrase my request, in that way as an invitation to meet me in my limit, but I always have a backup plan.
How does someone get someone to trust them? Or is it not about them at that stage and it's about the other person and their insecurities?
Well, it depends very much on the particulars of the situation. You know, so I don't know if there's a generic answer to that. I think that you can establish the ground rules explicitly. and have a discussion about it. Are we going to lie to each other or not? Are we going to tell each other the truth to the degree that we can to make that an actual goal and to talk through the consequences of doing that and not doing it? And then I would also say, whenever a hiccup occurs in the relationship, maybe don't call it out at each hiccup, because you have to have a certain amount of silent tolerance in any relationship to let small infractions go. But if they repeat, my rule is three times. And it's the rule that I share with my wife. If something happens three times that is causing emotional upset, anger, jealousy, disappointment, resentment, frustration, any of those things, anything that you don't want to experience and that you especially don't want to experience repeatedly, then you can call it out. And if you have three examples, your case is much better made than if you just have one. And I would also say that when you call it out, you know, you could say, look, we were at a party the other night and you were, it looked to me, I felt as if you were paying too much intense attention to Dave, there was some flirting going on there. That's what it looked like to me. There was some flirting going on there. And you know, that made me uncomfortable. Well, you don't say, well, you were flirting, stop doing it. You say, well, this is how it looked. This is what it looked like to me. And here was my response. And then you want to think, and maybe I'm a damn fool and blind and jealous and stupid. and I'm misinterpreting, or maybe it was a harmless flirtation of the sort that people will engage in because it adds a little bit of spice to a social interaction. You want to find out. Like it. It's really convenient if it's the other person's fault, except then you're Laden with living with that person. So it really doesn't help you anyways. But it's convenient because then they have to change. But you've got to think about this over the long run. You're going to be interacting with this person on a minute by minute basis for decades. If you're the idiot and that's causing trouble, then you should find out. So you want to say, well, look, this is what I saw. What's your explanation of what's going on? And then they'll offer you their viewpoint and hopefully they'll do the same thing. They'll think, well, this is my intent. and maybe they have to go think about it, but this is my intent and this is what I saw, and I think you're being oversensitive in that situation. And you peel back the explanations layer by layer until you both agree on what happened and more importantly on what you're going to do about it in the future. And that's really hard, and especially if there is something going on that's not straight because that will require quite a bit of digging. It'll probably result in anger and tears and a fight. And that's very unpleasant. It's easier in the short term to avoid that, but hopefully the consequence of that is you don't have to have that fight again. You have to come to a negotiated agreement about that situation and you have to pay attention to your own uncomfortable negative emotions in order to manage that and not pretend that everything's all right or that you're nicer than you are or that you're less jealous than you are or less blind. See, one of the things I learned from Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst about marriage, was that there is a reason marriage was a vow. The vow is that you stick together. Okay, so now imagine that's a vow. Okay, you do not get to leave, period. Okay, so what does that mean? Well, on the upside, it means that you don't have to be alone. It means that your family will have continuity over decades. It means that the narrative of your life won't be fragmented and broken by divorce or sequential divorce. It means that your children can grow up and maybe have their children within a continuing family, it means that your children will be able to maintain relationships with the grandparents on both sides and the cousins. Like it's a big deal to maintain that. There's huge advantages in it. It means that you'll have someone there when you're not well and so will your partner. And it'll means that you have someone to share all of the positive things of life with. So there's huge advantages to it. Okay, so why does it have to be a vow? Well, I don't think you can tell the truth to someone who can run away. Because if you tell the truth to someone and they can run away, then they'll run away.
Right.
Right. Because you're a mess, man. And not just because of your own inadequacies, but because human beings are so complicated and have such dark corners.
And.
Have had, you know, unresolved problems in their life sometimes that stem back generations and are twisted and bent in all sorts of ways.
And.
It'S very, very difficult to reveal that except to someone who can't run away. Now, that, you know, I'm not saying that people should never separate. I am saying though that it's better not to if you can manage it. But then the other thing too is if you can't run away, then you're motivated in a different way. It's like I'm stuck with this woman and she's stuck with me. And unless we want to have this same goddamn fight over and over and over for the next who knows how long, why don't we straighten it out? and then we can put it behind us. See, the vow gives you a kind of desperation that is another motivation to actually solve the problems. And if you've got a way out, you can always stay hidden. You can guard yourself, you can protect yourself and even protect that part of yourself that thinks that it can leave if things get too bad. Now, the problem with that in my estimation is that you're going to drag your stupidity into the next relationship.
Right, always do, right?
Well, generally speaking, right? And so now you can get very, you can, you can, under unfortunate circumstances, you can get tangled up with someone who's not playing a straight game with you and won't, and it's just impossible.
But.
I'm not talking about the limit cases, you know, I'm talking about the average case, the average amount of unhappiness and trouble. It's still plenty. And then the other. Sorry, just one more thing. I'd add to that. You also have to, in some sense, Shake the illusion that the other person is somehow not you. You're so tied up with them that there's no difference between you and them in some sense, is that what's good for her is going to be good for you and vice versa. One of the things we try to do to the two of us is we try to say yes to each other. Now there's rules that go along with that, which is, well, I'm going to say yes to you, but that sort of means that you shouldn't ask me unreasonable. You shouldn't make unreasonable demands. I'll say yes as much as I possibly can, and then you'll do that in return, and then we get yes out of the deal. instead of no, that's also a huge plus.
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In the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering.
Yeah.
You know, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me, and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders who have the belonging thing completely nailed, because I don't think it is what we think it is. You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis.
Really?
I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, a 15-city tour, millions of fans around the world and you still feel alone.
Yeah, I can feel really lonely.
Why?
And it's really hard because you talk about that book tour, I'm severely introverted, super private, and so I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one, it's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing, But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes.
We're all trying to figure it out.
Yeah.
We're all trying to figure it out.
I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard.
Yeah.
It's still hard. But here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like who's my crew and who are my people, I belong to me for sure, for the first time in my life maybe.
Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in.
Yeah.
You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest and I remember just wanting to fit in just like you did in the, that team. I wanted to fit in, I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered.
Yeah.
Like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like I didn't want to not say anything, you know, I didn't want to stand against them because I want to belong. So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear, was being alone.
Oh yeah, because that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone. The problem is there's, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we fit in, because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable.
Yeah, you start to lose yourself.
You start to lose yourself exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are.
How do we find out who we are?
That's the life's work, right? That's frickin' hard.
Do you know who you are?
Uh, yeah, I do.
Who are you?
Uh, in what way?
If someone just said, who are you, Brene Brown? What would you say?
Uh, Brene Brown.
Mmm.
Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan. I don't know. I'd ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in. Yeah, of course. But I'm a complicated person.
Are you?
Yeah, and so I think I know who I am.
What makes you complicated?
I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex.
You're interesting.
I hope so. Very interesting. I think what makes me complex is I think what makes everyone complex. is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public. I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it. Sure, sure. Yeah. So I think I'm, I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. And so, I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull. And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined.
I think that's, I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, you're gonna be this jock in college. You're gonna be like this alcoholic. You're gonna be in the frats.
Yeah.
All my siblings said this to me, and I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings, a hundred dollars each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, I'm gonna go against everything you think I'm gonna be.
Yeah.
I joined the school musical because they were like, you're just gonna do I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced. I was like, I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall white man, right? That's awesome. I was like, I want to be different. And I think in that process, I was like trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what was fun for me, as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that.
Fitting in, I think. You can lose yourself in the fitting in and you can lose yourself in.
The rebuttal to the fitting in.
Sitting in.
It's true. Trying to go against it all true. Yeah.
Yeah, it's really hard. I mean it's this thing that it's a quote that is Braving the Wilderness is all about this starts with this quote from Maya Angelou that we're never free until we belong nowhere. We belong everywhere which is nowhere which is no place at all. Which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like why are you saying that Dr. Angelo? You're pissing me But then I realized, really, and she says the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think, I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard. I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice.
Wow.
Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that.
You're like a chameleon, you said.
Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like sometimes it's really funny because I always 'cause I travel so much, I have all these miles. I always sit in business class and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too. Sure. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like. And it's so funny because we'll talk about sports usually first or football or we'll talk about politics and he'll say, What do you do? I study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some angry birds, you know, and right that moment, like, I can just, and it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just, so you're saying most.
Men don't wanna chime in and learn more about that?
Yeah, that's usually, if I wanna go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher, what do you do? And you're like, okay. But I think I can be anything.
Yeah, you're adaptable.
I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.
Of course.
But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. Yeah, yeah.
When would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?
High school.
It's the whole journey.
Yeah, it just sucked.
It does suck.
And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch.
Oh, that's nice.
Yeah, and I think it happened because I think she has the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and that kind of, I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter. You belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, It gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?
Because they feel safe coming back, no matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.
Yeah, and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four, and fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader, Or you were on the drill team, and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French Club. You know, I would have been in debate, or those kind of things. Newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, photographer for the yearbook. But those things did not have a lot of value. Really?
Not, no. Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile?
No, it's just, cool was the number one, Value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, you know, that just goes bad fast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?
Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it. Yeah.
You've let it go, you've processed it all.
Oh yeah, 'cause they read my books as I write them and they're like, shit, this is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher. But no, that's the miracle of my parents. My parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like they keep growing and exploring and learn, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up. Really?
No, no, no, no.
Like, yeah, like our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips, you're in the car for five hours, that's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over, like suck it up, hold it. Like we were tough. We were tough. Like we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say, like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball. You know, like, yeah, like we were tough. And so, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done. And so, however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents. in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16. You know.
Was he able to process that or no?
No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball. My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world, but everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up because it was the 50s and she was divorced. And so my mom became the head of the drill team and the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they did what they knew how to do. and they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life where the parents don't grow and change and they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents who lean in and say, tell me more about that. I have a funny story. We hear a funny story about my dad. It's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So like we know a lot about child development from our just from school. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices. Like, Louis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice.
Right.
And so one night I was talking to Ellen, we were at my dad's house in Santanego, and I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed. And she's like, mm-mm. And I said, Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV, or I'm gonna get it up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up.
And turn off the TV, you're gonna.
Lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Yeah, that's your choice. So do you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me, and he's like, Ah, damn, sis, what are you raising? A hostage negotiator? And I was like, Dad, and he's like, Seriously, Renee? We had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen, and he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio, and he's sweating. He's like, Ellen, you have two choices.
You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice.
So I was like, wow, you're so close.
You're getting there. You're getting there.
But you're getting there. My parents are amazing in that way that like, they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say, I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change. There are no take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker.
What are the challenges that come up over and over again? that you see.
So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?
A thriving one.
Yeah.
What can go wrong?
-Huh.
And how do you fix it? Okay, so you started with the middle question.
What goes wrong?
I think there's a number of things in a relationship that.
That.
That become just the. The kind of cornerstones of the demise. Okay. And I'm not going to list them in order, but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important. I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them. What they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about. They don't care.
You've lost interest.
But it's more than losing of interest. It's also when you are doing different, you degrade the other person, they're less important to you, they don't matter. And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me. You want my well-being. You're proud of me. You want good for me. you're benevolent, all of that. When you are indifferent, that whole thing goes. And then you start to this, that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect, that. The second one is neglect. Neglect. When people just basically take each other for granted, you know, they take more care of their car than of their partner, their dog or their dog, anybody, their yard, anything, anything gets attendance.
They're business.
They're business for for sure. Their business for sure. You know, everything gets priority, everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to, 260s, you name it, you know, new input. My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating, and then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tied the knot, it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore, and they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just gonna live on its own. Right. Like a cactus.
Right.
Violence. Violence. The abuse, the level of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship is deteriorating. Why is that? Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it because it's family. And family is this kind of this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily. So you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal that is phenomenal. So that kind of violence. I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big, big things.
You're talking about aggression or resentment or all of that. Yeah. all of that, you know, passive aggressiveness, all those things. Yeah.
All of that. And then, and then contempt, I think, is the top one.
Yeah.
Contempt is the killer of them all. Because in, in the contempt, there is a real, there's the degradation of the, is that, that complete this, you're nothing. You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up there, you know, do you, who do you think you are? What are. and that's it. You're done. You're done.
So how do we even get to this place of these places?
After having been so in love and so romantic, right?
Is desire reflect that or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories? Or does that not play into... Look.
The truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you. and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this. No. You're the only one. And now we go back in history. And I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really right. It is. the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking, all these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home. We also learned jealousy and all these things.
Possessiveness, vengeance, you name them.
The beauty and the not beauty.
Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the love, we saw the, you know.
We saw the coldness, the lack of intimacy. The intimacy, yes. and we bring that with us. And we often promise ourselves, I'll never be that one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this. And we find ourselves often much closer to the apple.
And then resenting ourselves. We resent ourselves. We're like, how do we do that? Why do we get to this place?
And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner. that's just one of the ways. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit.
Right, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. Where does sex play in all this and desire?
So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time. For most of history and in still the majority of the world, sex is for procreation. Sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere. In a very short amount of time, we're talking 60 years, we have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction. from mortality, from death in pregnancy and in childbirth, sorry, all of that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.
In 60 years.
In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power, the gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality, the fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stop having sex with others. Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to them. Okay? All of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter. Commitment, because I'm attracted to you, because you give me butterflies in my stomach, and the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in wanting only desire. I feel like it. I want to. Not I have to. Not we want many kids, after two kids, the only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it.
It's pleasurable.
It's pleasurable. We connect, it feels good, it rounds our relationship.
It deepens our relationship.
The whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other, because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home.
Right, exactly.
So this is an amazing revolution.
It's sex that is confusing all of us.
And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire, because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind, where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful and we live twice as long. Go figure.
Right, exactly. for 60 years, you're going to be with them or whatever it is.
It's an amazing ideal.
So how do we navigate this? If we're going to choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?
I think the first thing, both men.
And women, because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and, you know, vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?
Look, we know. that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.
Wow. Is this a factor?
That's research. That's not just fact. That is men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested. And maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself. And he has a partner there. Women's Desire post-marriage really.
Wow.
And it's always been translated as Well, that's because women care less about sex rather than it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn-on for the woman, often disappears in the long-term relationship.
It.
It's like when people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around, you want to do it, you're up for it tonight. Now, this is really not, this is not very much of a turn on for most women. And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing. Right. Which for her is not the real thing. The whole, the real thing is everything else.
So it's essentially the game.
Yes.
It's creating a game.
It's a It's a plot, it's a coming close, it's a tease. Mystery. It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me, and then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of pacing, and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets. But we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are. But women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security in their lives.
Stability and security, family, someone to protect, be there, right?
So what people do, look, this is, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay, that's the grand ideal. Okay? I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it. As if it's a...
Right?
And no Victoria's Secret is going to solve that. Yeah. All right. So then it becomes, what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when, I turn myself off by, not you turn me off when and what turns me off is. You're gonna hear I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel thriving, when I'm not alive, you will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, I turn myself on when or by, I awaken my desires. Not you turn me on when and what turns me on is, which is, i.e., you're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music, It's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul. It's not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds. It's I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, i.e. they don't need me to take care of them.
They're not depressed and down and needy and sad.
They're not needy. They don't need me because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti-aphrodisiac.
So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?
You calibrate it.
So sometimes you're...
It's the same as when you walk. You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see Right now, we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our own rules, we can stay home and not go to work at 8 o'clock.
Right.
And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. We are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens. It's that. It's very small. You know, I always think, When I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all that, I see, who is here with their partner? Because you can see them, they're engaged, they're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch. when you actually have energy. You know, when you... And in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer, it's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it and you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache and just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just gonna happen. 'Cause whatever is gonna just happen already has. So you're gonna make it happen. Because you say, We matter, we're important, let's do this, let's spend. It doesn't mean if you're gonna make love or have sex, it just means we're gonna take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment. But just you and I to be together, to check in, and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen, probably will, It doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility, that's the love, right? The citizen, the commitment, the care taking, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too.
Oh, exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk taking, right? Exactly, yeah.
There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front, is that I bring something else to you differently from the way I typically present myself. What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me, right? Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us. Right? And you check every time, you know, how often do you just go on the tried and trodden, as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough.
Right.
So why does it mean it works generally?
Right. What about the people listening who are saying, Man, that sounds like a lot of work. Every day you have to change, do something different and unique and be... Not every day.
Not every day. Not every day. But what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. Is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there just a way that I can show up? It's small, it's really small. Here's the thing, there is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you, you feel taller. You just feel like you're engaged, you feel awake rather than this. This is the other seated position. It's comfortable, it's great, but nothing happens here.
Sure.
This is alert. Here is the essential word is curiosity. When you're curious, you lean forward and you watch, you open to the mysteries of life. This is, please don't bother me with anything, because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share, you know. And this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much.
Work.
I basically say, look, if I was to say this in your business, would you say this is too much work? Or you would say, that's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees. It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that. Never. you have a reward system, you have incentives, bonuses, but there is no incentivized system in the private domain. So people just think why bother? And that's the difference, is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentivized system.
What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or are effective for long-term relationships?
I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop thanking their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts. Thank you for, you know, making you feel appreciated. Yes, appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude, acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life. Not did you do this, did you call, did you pick up, do this, you know, half the time.
Expectations.
Expectations. Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. With the expectation comes the fear of it's not gonna... Tank person, first of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given, nobody owes you squat. you're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable.
Right.
And with the divorce rate that we.
Have, what's the rate at right now?
About 50 on first and 65 on second.
65 on second. Wow.
It's not good, right? It's really, you know, it cost a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's. It's just. It's like. Okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or the idea is that we can do better. We can do better in general. I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody is going to write.
You know.
You worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week and, you know, no, they're going to say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game. He was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma, not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum. just so that they can't be scolded.
Right.
Go an extra thing on occasion. Just do something for the other person just because it matters to them. Even if you couldn't care less. Right. Rather than I don't. It's not important to me. I don't. I don't need this or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need. those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge. Because admiration is also that you can really see the otherness of the other person. Don't try to make your partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a group of people support you. and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster.
We used to have a village of people to do that. Now we just expect one person to be the village, right?
Yes, yes, yes. One person for the whole village. That is a unique, and then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate.
Do you think one, a relationship can truly thrive if one person is developing and working on themselves and processes and learning new skills and the other person is not.
It's very hard, you know, because people, I think growth is very important. I also think that everyone grows at different speeds and they grow differently. So whereas therapy has been very impactful for you, for someone else it might be something different, right? There's many paths.
Because you're doing something.
Doing something.
Right?
And I think that people grow at different speeds. And I do think that you have to love someone as though they would never change. Though the funny thing is, it's like we want everyone to sort of grow, to evolve. But we have to agree.
It shouldn't be on their terms, right? That's what I told her. I said, listen, I'm committed to my own growth. I'm gonna continue to grow and evolve.
Yes.
But you gotta accept me where I'm at.
Yes.
And if you don't accept me where I'm at now, and you want me to change right now into something that's going to make you happy, this is not going to work.
Or fall in love with potential, which is a trap.
I cannot do that.
No, you cannot do that. And also, what defines growth? How do you know that you're growing? Because some people will say, they'll go on a retreat or do ayahuasca or do something and be like, oh my god, all of this. And the other person's like, whoa, and then that doesn't mean that the other person is not growing. So it's like what really, I think growing as a couple is really important.
That's why I said we've got to do, what do you call it, coaching or therapy?
I love that.
Committing to it together.
I love that.
Individual on our own and then together.
I love that.
And she was like, yeah, I'm down. So she has her own coach that she works with every two weeks for an hour, an hour and a half to work on her own stuff individually. I do that as well individually and then we do it together.
I love that. From the beginning. From the beginning.
Which has been huge for us.
Oh, I think it should be non-negotiable.
That's what I said. I was like, this is non-negotiable for me. Yeah. If it's not something you want, then.
Find someone else and I'll find someone else or whatever.
Yeah.
Because guess what? No matter how much work we do on ourselves, we're gonna be triggered. And that inner child is gonna come out screaming and we're gonna be like, you know, a total ass sometimes. And, you know, we're gonna have to apologize. I mean, being in a relationship Relationship means that you have to know how to forgive and forgive often because oftentimes we will make mistakes with the person we love and we didn't even realize that we were doing that. I mean, how many times have you hurt someone's feelings and that was not your intention?
Yeah, so many.
So many. So many times. So I love, you know, if more people, because the problem is that most people enter couples therapy when it's too late.
Probably not gonna work out.
Yeah, when there's just too many problems and too many things to unpack. I mean, yes, it can work, you know, it can help, but if you can do this stuff preemptively, it's huge. Anything to prevent resentment and pain and suffering and frustration. Anything, you know, to foster honest conversations, you're gonna win, even if you end up breaking up. You're going still win, because at least it won't be the kind of break up that destroys you.
Yeah, this flicks.
That traumatizes you like Yesting Ye Exactly.
Herard full back and forth.
Yeah.
And that's tra you know what? That's trauma, Oh, yeah, huge.
Yeah, A will hold people back from opening their heart in the next relationship.
See it all the time. People are walking round so wounded and so closed.
What is the most unpopular thing or truth about relationships that most people don't want to know.
And I'll tell you straight up that every relationship you've ever had had one thing in common, and that was you. Just like every relationship I've ever had has one thing in common, that's me. It's not that all of them cheat, it's that you keep choosing cheaters. It's not that all of them are narcissists. It's that you're choosing the narcissist. It's not that all of them are this or that. You're choosing them. You're part of that. And it's such an uncomfortable truth because people don't want to see that in themselves, but it is the path to your freedom, 100%. Every relationship we have ever had has been a mirror. and it shows us where sometimes it reflects back to us where we've done a lot of work and it's lovely. Sometimes it reflects back to us how wonderful we are. And oftentimes in their past, if it hasn't worked out, it's going to reflect where our self-worth is, where our immaturity is, where our trauma is, every relationship we've ever had. will reflect back to us the relationship we have with ourselves, period, end of story. And if you can't, if one cannot actually accept that, they're just going to keep repeating patterns, guaranteed. Guaranteed. If your picker is off and busted.
Because... Man, mine was off for years.
Yeah, because, you know, like whatever, you're addicted to the chaos, or daddy did this, or mommy did that.
Which is familiar.
Of course, it's familiar, and this is very real. I don't mean to say it cavalierly. I mean, it's real. But then you have to recondition yourself to understand what a healthy person is and go for that and become healthy yourself. Because most toxic relationships, of course, there are abusive relationships where there is actually a very clear victim and a very clear perpetrator. But most of the time, what people refer to as toxic, which is just an overused term in the current zeitgeist, but when people refer to toxic, it's two people with consistent, because we get unregulated once in a while, that's called being human, with consistent unregulated emotional states, blaming each other for each other's pain and not taking responsibility.
You did this to me. You made me feel this way. What you did hurt me.
And they're constantly unregulated. That's toxicity. Now, I was in my 20s in a horrendous relationship. Talk about chemistry, because once you have chemistry with someone, you're screwed.
You feel this chemical connection. You're like, this feeling, you're intoxicated.
It's a wrap. And the thing is, if you haven't done work on yourself, you're gonna have that chemical explosion with the one person who's bad for you. And oftentimes, the person who's the best in bed is the person who's the worst for you. And usually they're just, you find the sex is amazing with them because there's a danger and then there's also a familiarity. I mean, we can, There's like a trauma bonding. Yeah, exactly. So I remember in my 20s, I was in a relationship with someone for about a year who without question is toxic.
Like there's just, you could feel it, you knew it.
Everyone knows it.
They're like, what are you doing with this guy? He's treating you this way.
Everyone knows it. It's just, it's a fact, right?
But why did you stay then?
Exactly. Where's the toxicity in me, the low self-worth and all of that? Because the thing about being in a very unhealthy relationship is the two people really bringing out the worst in each other.
Not the best, yeah.
Definitely not even close to the best. To the point where that, when that relationship ends, part of getting over that relationship is trying to overcome the shame that you feel for like even going there?
Yeah, I was there. How long of a life did I have with this person? The time and the energy and why would I, how could I do this? And what was I think, the shame, the guilt, right?
Yeah, and also just some of the things that you did. That's like, how did I do that?
How did I react this way?
Yeah, like that boundary that I do, or like that thing that I said.
Yeah.
This is interesting. I ask people this sometimes. And I asked my younger self this now. I'm like, if sex was off the table, would I have stayed in certain relationships? There's no way. Zero chance I would have stayed after a year or two years of feeling like I'm abandoning myself or getting screamed at every week or whatever. I've been like, what am I doing this for? Like, why would I stay in this thing? For whatever reason, that chemical bonds you for a moment, and it's so strong. And then you're like, okay, well, let's have a few good days. And then it goes back into chaos.
And you're like, yeah.
Let's get back to that feeling, right?
100%.
But if you took that off the table or if you just waited as long as you could.
Absolutely.
I'm not saying you have to wait till marriage, but if you wait until you get to experience someone over and over and over again in lots of scenarios and you felt safe and peaceful, then maybe, okay, you can start in that sexual interaction.
And you can make out.
Yeah, of course. Nobody's talking about intercourse, right?
Yeah.
But if you took it off the table and you asked yourself, would I be in this if we didn't have sex for a year?
Probably you wouldn't.
Yes, exactly. If I'm not gonna have sex for a year with this person, would I put up with this behavior?
Yeah, exactly.
Screamed at, would I be yelled at? No, exactly. I don't need this. Yeah, I don't need this, exactly. And people, they don't wanna wait. And I always say, build that emotional intimacy first. Well, what if the sex is bad? You know what, you can work on it. And when you're making out with them, you know anyway, you can have some idea. It's a connection, my friend.
Yeah.
If there's, you know, there's chemistry from a kiss, period.
Exactly.
So you don't have to go there.
I've heard this a lot lately. They're like, if someone is boring, you should run towards them, not away from them. You know what I mean?
If all you know is chaos.
Is chemical chaos, right? You should run towards, that's a safer environment. It doesn't mean he's the one or she's the one to be with for you. But start looking at people that make you feel comfortable and safe.
Yes. Where you can, I tell people all the time who have that pattern of always just dating emotionally unavailable people or people that have been wrong for them. And usually that person doesn't have the self-esteem necessary to be in a relationship with someone who is gonna respect them and love them. But I tell them, just practice, go towards boring. Exactly. Go towards that person so that you can have an experience of being in the presence of someone who you could potentially date and you can just be totally yourself.
100% yourself.
Yeah.
No errors, no strategizing to get someone to be more interested. Yeah, you can flirt and do all that fun stuff, but no strategizing to get someone to be more interested in you. Just just you. And that is, I mean, that's like revolutionary for some people. We don't have many templates for healthy relationship.
We don't see it much in the media at all.
It's a lot of chaos.
And we also, many of us don't.
Have elders anymore either.
We don't have those people who can.
Support us and guide us or who.
Can remind us how to come back to.
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