How To SPOT A Narcissist When DATING! (Watch Out For This)| Ramani Durvasula & Lewis Howes

The bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love? Is that possible?

Besides loving themselves?

Lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, I love this person. Oh, wow. Many people are gaslighted. We'll start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist, maybe I have a mental illness.

And at that point, the gaslighting. I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes. Why is narcissism such a a big topic, especially right now in our society. It's interesting, it wasn't for a very long time.

I mean, it's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it. Like, I was like, you,'re like a nerd when you were like, I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. Everyone, for I was literally back room of a lab and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. I geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. You know, if anyone ever asked me, this is my theory on it, is I think It's interesting, there's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lasch called the Culture of Narcissism. And in that book he really gets, and this is the 70s, okay? And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. This has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media happened.

We had to witness it all.

Yeah. And we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now.

Political dramas and fights and... Lots of.

And materialism was on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media, and reality TV, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self-promotion. was about validation seeking. Look at me, no, look at me, no, look at me. My life's better than yours. And it was that, I will never forget the day, actually. I was, when I, someone told me about social media. It was in that space between MySpace and Facebook.

Facebook, yeah.

And I had small, small children at the time, and I think I was up late and somebody said, you, gotta look at this thing called Facebook, right? And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so I, at the time I was even married, so really no social life. And I look at it and I'm, and it It's that moment, that penny drop moment, where I could feel that dread in my stomach as though like a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, oh my God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it, if you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house. Right? Like no one was gonna, you had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work. especially men in that era. And then other people would get it by going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something. But it was a different game.

Going to the gym, maybe.

Maybe going to the gym, but now all of it, excelling at something visible, like sports or performing or singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are going to be able to get validation just sitting at home? And I thought this narcissism thing's going to blow up. That was 2008. When I had that revelation, I started telling people, you know, people said like, oh honey, you're running off in your head, get some sleep, like you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no, this is gonna blow up. And then it blew up. And at around that time, we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows like, you know, Survivor and things like that. I'm like, this is interesting. And then we'd start seeing more and more and more of the attention seeking reality TV, housewife type shows and that. A bachelor. A bachelor. And I thought, oh no, no, no. And then the political winds changed. And the word came into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied, nobody cared about it. Nobody cared about it. And then all of a sudden it became mainstream. And then the word changed and it became mainstream. Exactly. But another thing that was happening too is this, I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics. and they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say, and they would look frazzled and I say, hey, what's up? And they'll say, some of these patients, they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. And what we came to find out was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good health care to other people, they themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them so they're not getting good health care. And then a few years later I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. They kept, it's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism because this is clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you, once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced, some were splitting up, some were saying, I'm going to set boundaries. I mean, it was insta change. And they said, we were in couples therapy for five years and always about Marriage is hard. You gotta communicate. I'm like communicating with a narcissist is, I don't know, it's like impossible.

It's not hard to scream into an abyss. Like there's no point. Is there hope for people in marriages, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist to actually heal the relationship and improve it? Or is it just gonna be hard.

The rest of your life? Going on a probability basis, the answer is no. I think it's gonna be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. but the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic. I mean, we're talking about daily commitment. On the person who is a narcissist. On the person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever is on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with many, I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice.

For a long time now, you know, have been narcissistic. Why would they even come to work.

With you if they're narcissistic? Because something's going wrong in their lives. Their marriage is blowing up. They're having some sort of public shaming. Their career isn't going well. They have to assent. They feel the world is against them. And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy, in some ways wanting to complain. Right? Every so often they're given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone, maybe they get caught in an affair and then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, We're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand because if someone else is telling them to do it, even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change.

Personality doesn't change. Unless you're like doing therapy every week.

And holding yourself accountable and even then. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served.

Right.

It's like I put in more reps. Yes, I put in more reps. So I'm like, now I know I can do this thing, right? But it's not that. I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person.

That's just who I am. When is our personality shaped?

Well, there's two pieces to personality. We're born, the sort of the genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament.

Our temperament. Our temperament.

You're born and you're either a cryer or not a cryer. I can make it ultra simple. Like, you know, there's some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments. They're born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent. They're kids who are difficult to soothe. To make them stop crying, to help them sleep. As time goes on, they're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy, fighty. They get to school, they can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them. So these kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down, stop that, don't do that. And there's even this vibe these kids get.

Like nobody really wants to spend time with them, right? Because they're real, handful. Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five.

No, you can't, but the difficult temperament is a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk, but it's definitely when we tell that story backwards, every narcissistic client I've ever worked with, without exception, had a difficult temperament as a child. So that either they, every so often I'd get lucky, We'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they'd ask the parent and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real, 'cause you had siblings, right? So they'd compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great, easy temperament. It's not quite, so temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to them.

That's the genetic side.

And the other-- All the rest of it is shaped by the world.

Environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you're exposed to.

Exactly.

So if you had a, let's say, a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to, you know, I guess shift your personality into a different style with environment?

I think so. I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at. So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy. and you get them into athletics. Yes. Or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that. And you really are with them. Instead of saying, you,'re being so bad, you're so difficult. Like, whoa, look at that rocket you built. Or like, oh my gosh, you ran 10 miles today or you threw the ball or like, this is great. Like, let's do it together. And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've heard of some, this is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climbing mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus of energy. And then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them, might go hiking with them or whatever. So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver.

They can relax more into that.

And they have success, experiences, right? So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really, like they feel loved no matter what, whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved. And that they have these other outlets.

That's cool.

And that the school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have that things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number of kids I know who got that lineup.

I mean, who had like all the support and love. We love you no matter what. And yeah, it's very challenging. It's interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed, obviously. And he, he said his father one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13. He said he didn't score one point the whole summer in, like, this summer competition league. And he said, my father told me, no matter what, I'm gonna love you. Whether you score zero points or you're the highest score, I'm gonna love you no matter what. No matter how good or how bad you are, I love you no matter what. And he said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm gonna go out and go for it. No matter what happens, I'm loved, is the way he explained it. And I thought that was interesting. But not a lot of people have had like the school support and parent support and sibling support and like the encouragement. But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth, is that right?

So every human being has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting, you know, like again, a safe base, a safe place of attachment, a sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah, their behavior could be called out. Like, no, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. I love you whether you get the 13 points or the no points.

You're still grounded, but I love you.

You're so grounded, you know, I love you. You know, and so that sort of consistency and safety, but it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014 and in this paper they were talking about how do you basically, how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid? One thing we're seeing a little bit right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing.

Celebrated for just being.

Celebrated for like you're just so great. And it's that we, you're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great. means something, right? Great is excelling. So you love a child, you cultivate their strengths, but the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be, they're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over, and you're all that, you're all that, you shouldn't, you're special, you shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood, And the slings and arrows happen and they are not having it. And that's where you see, that on top of everything else can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child. Just overindulge. And what happens is they're almost overindulged for their outsides and you're so special, but their emotional world isn't nourished. So nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. You know, it's a lot of that and that's a dangerous game to play.

Would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say they got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them, you know, discipline, but love and all these things in the way that, the best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? Or how does that actually happen?

So the problem, if someone had all the fundamentals, the safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, the great values, all of those things, supportive educational environment, all of that, you still will have a handful, but you will have dropped the probability from here down to here. It's like a horse race, right? You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Narcissism is creating adult narcissism is a complex interblend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, you know, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse. Because that results in inconsistent caregivers, right? And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adult narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You see, the majority of people. You're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over, like, you,'re so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. that's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love, Kobe Bryant's father, I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now imagine that happening a thousand times, ten thousand times. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you whatever. The child learns that all love is conditional. which is really, that's transactional. Basically, all narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. And attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One, singular. You need that. That person who is there, who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe, it's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism. So if you have a secure attachment.

You'Re less likely to have narcissistic tendencies.

If you don't have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, Then the person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me?

You abandoned me for five hours.

And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style of parenting.

Interesting.

In adulthood, yeah.

Can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them.

So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles. Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitative-ness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement, absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure and they are very insecure. Very insecure. Gosh, that's so true. And lots of feelings of inadequacy. Okay? So, but that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomach ache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like, there's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's gonna get blown off and we're gonna be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh my God. Like if I can't take feedback. Hey, yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt.

And you're like, oh really?

And you start coming at me. I know you got this on your shirt. Yeah, right. I'm not talking about that. Like, I got this and this and this criticizing you. Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against the shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. They're calm. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system. And it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know as fight or flight or freeze. And that fight, flight, freeze, and there's even a fourth part to it called fawn, which we could talk about. But that autonomic reaction that, like, boom, adrenaline got, you know, eyes wide open kind of reaction. That's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I. I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a hundred dollar bill hanging out their wallet, never could I ever. Like, I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about, like, no, you know, because I have a very, probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, They'd clip that and their heart rate would not go up.

They would not think, they just take.

It, steal it, and so they have no anxiety.

No excitement around it.

No excitement, no anxiety, and they're very stress resistant. In that way, that's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're gonna be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, Cut those 100,000 jobs, and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, They're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is, but there is a coldness and a callousness.

Interesting.

Because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.

Interesting.

And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure, and profit, and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopath.

Really?

Yeah. The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy. The psychopaths don't. They're not insecure. They're not insecure. No. I mean, if you see a psychopath get mad, It's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you. Get rid of it. Exactly. Or they'll calmly have someone say, I'll literally look at you if I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like, and I'd be calm, and I'd go, and then I don't know whether that means you should kill them or fire them or.

Whatever, but no problem with that.

And very calm.

They don't have the emotion.

They don't have empathy. No empathy. Does narcissist have empathy? Narcissists have, we tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call, I like to call it, instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is. They know- They use it against you. They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you, but like if they want to get you to do something, oh man, I heard your mom's sick. Oh my gosh, how's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like it's rough, you know, my mom was sick. She was really sick for a while too. I get all that. And then-- It's a rapport, and then they're getting something from you. Oh my gosh. So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them, that's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what the-- they know what's right. Or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it. But they can't be bothered with it. cognitively get it, they can think about empathy. I need something for him, from him. Somebody said his mom's sick, so let me work the mom angle here because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for, so they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you and someone's the next week when they're fully done with you and say, Hey, his mom got sick and be like, so, yes, so what do you want me to do about it? so it's very cold when they're done. So that's why people say, well, don't tell me they don't have empathy, because it seemed like they cried at that movie, or they were really understanding my feelings. Odds are they needed something at that point.

So what was the most, the scariest narcissist, what was it called? Or the most, Malignant. Dangerous. Malignant narcissist. Okay, so can you explain again what that is? So let's talk about, let's view narcissism.

As almost like this inner core, okay? The inner core of narcissism. is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people, or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them, blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving.

Insecure.

Deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations. charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also-- Can you have those.

Things and not be narcissistic?

You can't.

'Cause I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like-- so.

Here'S where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. When you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being. Someone who is confident and charismatic. When I meet the confident charismatic, Empathic, kind, respectful, humble person. I literally, I'm like, okay, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look googly eyes, 'cause I'm thinking, and then of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find out what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, There's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers, I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous.

Up front.

It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things.

You're like this is amazing.

Yeah. And people, either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff. or you justify it.

You justify, well, yeah.

Yeah, you know, he's got a big job or she's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean?

It's dismissive like, okay, all right, you know, you're talking and then I not only cut in, but it's basically like.

You- point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know what's really, yeah. Okay, so you share some of these signs of malignant narcissism.

No, that's okay, so let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. Titleman, yes. Now the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh my gosh.

Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Like I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the, the big charming, confident. I'm the one. I'm the best. No insight, very little empathy kind of, but very like. big sales person, that's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can, they can, and that's a horrific combination. Because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, and when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. big awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the MeToo era, a lot of those folks were malignant narcissists.

Right. So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things, but the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain, pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist.

No.

So trying to change them is not gonna happen. That's a full there. So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out?

Or how does it... How do we navigate that? It's not that simple. Yeah. Right? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children.

What if it's their family of origin?

And they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. and I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go, like you said, rip off the band-aid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse, and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them.

Completely blocking, cutting off.

And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate it.

Eliminate it. You have no more toxins. You have a little bit, you're just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.

It's going to be holding onto it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you.

Have to engage in something that I.

And others have called radical acceptance. This is never going to change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So, and I then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of... It's like you're in a deposition. Yes? No? Okay. Sounds good. Sure. Now... Man. Narcissists don't like that. Because they're going to keep coming and digging and digging and digging. They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And they...

When I tell you, when they bait.

You, they don't play.

They go for everything.

They go for everything that's going to make something else. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up.

They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it.

Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right? And so then at some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist like game on, you know, and they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year and over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, it's this is not, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter. Oh my gosh. And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made a steal. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain. Crazy. To not get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it. Because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number Someone's noticing me.

This person DM me or this person.

Is exactly... Kidding on me. They're always trying to and they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. Oh, there's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. Okay, so jealousy is normal. We are a actually, we're a pair-bonded species, we human beings. We are, we liked, we pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. They said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous.

With one person.

They weren't banging you. They were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. But we tend to be pair-bonded. We tend to be monogamous. So jealousy is a threat to that, think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right, normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person, if somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all the Darwinian stuff, right?

Pathological jealousy.

Pathological jealousy though, That starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and oh my gosh. And negative mood states and all that. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but I always, when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and or worked with individuals and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad because I'm.

Like, yeah, this thing's kind of. Oh, gotcha. Kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were gonna have to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh, he doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, That's, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling like, I still have my dog in the fight.

But it doesn't mean you're like, I, but I'm letting it stress you out.

And like talking to them about it.

Only because we're talking about it. Yeah, of course, yeah.

And so the, what did you say with the, paranoid? Paranoid, the pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy. Yeah.

That's a narcissist.

That's more of an, it's more paranoid.

It'S more antagonistic, it's more about, you must be doing something. You're doing so it's accusatory, it's almost delusional. Gosh. Okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based?

It's partly trauma. It's also that temperament, it is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong and they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world, where every moment being documented and shared and since they've been born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this. So I did not, the only people who saw their pictures were the people actually- your- friends and family- put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing.

Or came over to that house and.

Looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children You know, special moments or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever, 10 years old?

It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown or, you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute, Is this still... They didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So, there's some... I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may.

Not be entirely cool. Yeah, what happens when... -They're not agreeing. -What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these things that their mom or dad.

Posted and they're like, Huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. -But it goes beyond that because even.

When the child is young, there's this.

Sense that things are constantly being done to them. them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and.

Do this and let's post you in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

Or for the validation on line.

Exactly. For the validation a parent is getting. Yes. Exactly, exactly.

And that's tough, 'cause I have friends who never show their kids stuff, and then I have friends who do show their kids. And, man, it's just like, yeah, how do we navigate that conversation? And how do we...

I think we're building this airplane in the sky.

Oh, man.

And so the challenge becomes then that, I would say, it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other, both parents. But also, I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right? Because what does every child want? They want their parents' love.

Love and attention.

All they want is their parents' love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do, but what's not happening is that their interest, what they value may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented. I'm going to be frank with you, as a psychologist, I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to.

Let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. You know, maybe they have a small following, maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family.

Is it kind of a different game?

And or is it the ones that have a bigger following? If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, let's say, not to their friends and family.

What.

Would be appropriate that you think psychologically, in a healthy manner, to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, I think that-- Not mess them up or, you know--.

Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress, someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finally laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finally laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not, it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not, this is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the parks. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation. And I've watched families like practically, I mean literally screaming, we need this life, our grass mask car. No way. And I'm like, oh my God.

Pay attention, look here.

Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism?

That we're perfect.

False self.

Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask.

It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants. Oh, yeah. How the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies. They're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game.

Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity. It's so interesting because four years ago, I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about- Interesting. and I interviewed a lot of psychologists and, and, you know, experts on, on these kind of personality traits and these, these masks that men wear. And I did, I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks for many different years of my life to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by Society, one of them being, like, the, the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry. I would be like moody. I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better. Until I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. and there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong, but it's not the authentic self. Correct.

And that, I mean, that's maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self, because it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right, the humanistic psychologist and other humanists like Abraham Maslow, So these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization. So if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people. And it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger. And they were deeply authentic. I mean, you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. Like one was a man who was a, he was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.

What did that feel like?

Was it absolute serenity? I felt it. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education. who again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy. Like he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what and anyone looking at it, like there's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine authentic, like please come into my, look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, joy. And that man, the Johannesburg man, I'm still not touch with this other man I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him, we were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable. and he was magnificent. And it wasn't just, the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world, he was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right?

In service.

He was in service, the other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more, I want what they have, someone's got it, better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism, no mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves.

Totally opposite.

What a life, like what a gorgeous life.

You mentioned the deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get like your point across if you need to get it across?

You don't. You can't. So sometimes I tell people, okay, but.

Do we, life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Not with them.

So that we should just rip the band-aid, you know what I mean?

Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parent with a narcissist, we're gonna give the other parent full custody. Not happening. State of California, 50-50, all right? Unless somebody doesn't want that. so what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50 of the time, and I don't want them with that influence 50 of the time. So some people will stay. I, my favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the day and then at 18, those kids they're free agents. So there's no, no one can say you have to be here, you have to stay here, you have to celebrate.

This holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots. So how do you, so you just.

Have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience, it's radical acceptance.

Patience is endurance.

Radical acceptance. This thing sounds exhausting. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago. Oh, it's miserable. Are you gonna go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt? No, unless you're crazy. Okay. Why?

Because in February in Chicago, it's cold.

Radical acceptance. Yes, you just accept it. If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to another person. So I tell people, there's another concept I use, it's something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True North are those things that you're gonna fight for because they're so, they're important to your core values. So who you are. For some folks it's their kids. For some people it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language. True North gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then their in. They're just, they'll go at it. It is exhausting.

Nothing good happens to us.

Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romani, so I could live with myself. To know that I fought for my life. I stood up for what I wanted. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or, you know, why were you late to the party or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens though is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there, there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, -huh. That's it.

But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests, Can you actually, can you love.

A narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist?

It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you, it means something different to me, it means different things to the people out in the street. So the, and that's the, the bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

It depends on what you define love as. Besides loving themselves. What is cold to you? Right, you're in short sleeves, I'm in a sweater. Yeah. So, it's a subjective word. So, can a lot of people love narcissists? They do. They're like, I love this person. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it is very representational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are. But we don't know, maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So, again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, There are people out there who will say, I do, parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. Like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them.

Sure.

But love is much more metaphysical.

Yeah, of course.

Right?

So what's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist then?

That they love themselves.

They don't love themselves?

Oh hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. They put it on other people. They project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick.

Oh my God.

They're talking about themselves.

Oh my gosh.

So, you just want to give them a hug. So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable, it's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to.

They have to keep being them.

They have to live with it. The universe wins on that one. They have to keep being them. It is a... Imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this and how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out together. That's a very difficult way to live.

Their nervous system must be always heightened too. Kind of, kind of, yeah, different than.

Their psychopathic cousins there.

He doesn't feel it, yeah.

But narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting a short end of the stick.

And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they, I have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic?

I don't think, let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness.

Dismissiveness.

Dismissiveness, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them. them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage. Rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up. Anger. Anger, but rage like that walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent, probably dealing with with an antagonistic, a narcissistic parent.

Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked in eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to.

But you didn't jump into a relationship.

I didn't feel that way.

You didn't feel But it was like.

6 to 12 months later when I.

Was like- I justified.

Then I justified, oh, let's just get back to where it was.

One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps.

Yes.

There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna do the Sunday workout. You're gonna go to the gym at four in the morning.

That's it. Right.

And so the more in you had this belief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk to them harder. I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make more work.

More loving, more present, more giving.

Everything becomes a work workout.

Oh, my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it would never felt enough. And it was always draining to give. It was never enough. What I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at.

Yeah.

And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. I was. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve, because I'm an athlete, right? I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them.

Not a narcissistic woman. Oh my gosh. But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this.

It doesn't work. And then you just just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better?

How can I improve?

Tell me what I can do. I'm here, I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy.

Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer.

And it's worked for them, they're screwed. It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil, which my therapist talks about, is like I started to really realize, like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this in one of your recent videos, like, the marriage and the relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized like it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work. No, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's what it is.

Exactly, and I think that that, and I have to tell you a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, It's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no. It's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know that that's hard work, because they sat and watched your French film with you. It's just an uncomfortable moment.

I'm just gonna read my book while you watch your football game.

Yeah, we're good. Yeah, that's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect, every single one. And as long as you got that- Flexibility. Flexibility, no narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs or sugar.

Good luck with that. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship, the person is not a narcissist? Like maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is and you have some pts from those experiences and you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking in eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is this shoe gonna drop? Like when you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out?

About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually that there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great, that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting and are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work. And listen, what's the worst is gonna happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to. But we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport. Oh. Oh, no, no, no, no. What happened? And it just. It's just. I'm not gonna crash. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Oh my God. Like that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing, it's the presence, it's the mindfulness, it's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed. to meet you halfway, to listen to you, and more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So, not to be threatened by your own success. So, if you go up to this person and you're like, Hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, Not just narcissists but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road and you're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams. Oh my gosh. That's bringing back so many memories to me. Yeah, that's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in... I'm going a little off topic but you're an off topic guy. You can handle it. I love it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? Should we move closer in? Because I see, or you know what could be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you, ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. Like it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

That's a good thing.

That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

That's a good thing.

It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that. Because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, Go be your best you, is secure enough to say, I'm not gonna lose you.

Right, right.

Like I see all the good in you.

And that-- and I want the best for you.

And I want the best for you and I believe in you and I'm here with you and that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. Never, ever happen.

What's the opposite of that?

Narcissistic relationship.

In the previous, I would say 10 years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing Specific people because I was always like I saw the masterpiece. I said, I said, you,'re a masterpiece and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts But there was like some insecurities with some of them not all of them and they never were able to see it within themselves They weren't able to see it and then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships not all of them It was almost like they would get depressed or sad and and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking, what they don't have, and wanting to put their intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become to make the USA national team was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball. It's a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple of years of a journey. This was 10 years ago. And I remember I showed her my girlfriend at the time ago, I just got called up on the national team. And I'm like getting kind of emotional just chills now back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into, God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do. And I wish there was this. And I was just like, what?

Bingo.

Right there. Just, okay, well yeah, let me come back and help you. I kind of put my attention back on like, you know, you're gonna get these things going and you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing, I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I hosted this annual event called the Summit of Greatness and a relationship out of time made it all about them at the event. That I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what? Let me pause on my event for two hours. to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece. But it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me.

Right, yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that that ego... And it's interesting, not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low-grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by. Right? So, all insecurity doesn't mean narcissism, right? Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there then you again, it's talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people like they really see, they see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you.

Because it's just draining. If it's just one person, right?

It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.

So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you.

And she's happy for you.

She's happy for me.

It has to be a two-way street.

She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful.

It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key though, because that ability to sort of co, like, again, to have that co-located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will, you're, in essence, You're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day and you're both sculpting that for the other. Oh my gosh. But that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. So they can be the only great one in a relationship. Really?

Is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

I actually love when that happens because it kind of gets to both of them. apply for everybody else. Let go.

Because they're both miserable with each other.

They like to work for each other. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy, but in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship, One partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them, it all looks good together.

They complement each other.

Ish complements a strong word. The first time this one though might look someplace else, 'cause this one's a narcissist, this person, the powerful one, is narcissistic, may notice someone else, this person's gonna blow up, because they're doing their beautiful thing full time.

And they're like, how can someone be more narcissistic? If you're not looking at me obsessive.

Then you're not giving me all the attention. Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, lots of me-me-me, lots of egocentricity, lots of on social media. It's like, I'm so blessed, love my person, best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that 'cause I'm like, yeah, there we go. Another narcissistic, super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship. very superficial, very volatile, no empathy, there's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's are, as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real mess.

You're a mess. You're traumatized.

It's a really empty way to grow up, those kids that grow up either they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults?

It's not a good look. I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. What's the percentage? What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even?

Okay, so here's where it gets interesting. Let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you have been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging and I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder.

Okay?

And P D. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship or I've got this boss and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down sister, okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'll be honest with you, five or a client in my office, usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with.

-It'S there. -With a disorder.

-Because you could have narcissistic personality traits. -Correct.

-Different than a disorder. -And it gets into the weeds in.

Terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to get into. -It could be like more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to. -It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis and the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, DSM in order to give someone a diagnosis. That person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress, like depressed people. They're like, I'm miserable. I can't, I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of.

Right?

It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around like, I'm the one, I'm the guy, I'm the one, I'm the best. Look how great I am.

I've got money, I've got success, I've got the girl, whatever it is.

It's working for me. So, everything's working for them. So, that's not subjective. Nothing's wrong with that. No. Yeah. Social and occupational impairment, Now, in some cases they may be having trouble at work and then yeah, sure they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work, they got a partner and a side piece, like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives. We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social, we can't say that they have social and occupational impairment. because they're, someone else is bothered by them. Make sense? Yeah. It has to be in the, it has to be that the person is saying, I'm not, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's It's okay. So now let's go to the numbers because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%. Okay? That's people who are diagnosed with this. Okay, so they've gone into research studies.

Most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions.

And so what do you. The million dollar question.

What do you. How many do you think.

This is my number. This is the Dr. Ramani number.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm going with 20 to 25%.

Oh, of the world or of the U.S. or of the world.

One in five to one in four.

You think it's 50-50?

One in five is probably. And I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. so 18 and above 20 that would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major Metro like La, I'm going to 25. I think that just the pressures of New York, especially New York, La, La being an entertainment City, the nature that sort of the, the, it's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25 here. So that's one in five. So, buddy, if you know five people, One of them's narcissistic.

When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess, the real qualities?

It's empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation, managing, this is more of the emotional regulation, managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. That's a good one. Yeah. Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are, having a solid sense of values, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.

It's nice to be around those two people.

Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life. I feel like I've got to do it. But I'm very careful. Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't, and I've made them as recently as this year, I've let.

More than a few in.

So it happens. You let narcissistic friends in. Yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's unfortunately at one in five, what are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, one of them. And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.

So even you, you've attracted people in your life.

100% and I know what my vulnerability I'm very aware of that. What are they? My personal vulnerabilities are things like a, I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boil it down to one simple thing is that I feel like I'm not good enough. Because I feel like I'm not good enough, I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect.

Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself?

It's to fully love yourself to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent, but I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough, kind of thing. Really? Yeah. And I know that, and that's my work in my own therapy on that. consistently. And, but it's a, I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's great, it's interesting. I've got, my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. This is what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs. They're like, We feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, Good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, I mean, these two are Gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women.

What's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't... So that when we see someone coming in, we just say, nah, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life.

So, let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives. That we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy? Right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know? And that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's- who said this? Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Ramani says, and many others I do believe say, we're energy. Like, who judges energy? It's like judging the sun. I guess we do, like we wear sunscreen. You're right, right, right. But you know what I mean? Like, it's a, these conditions of worth whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough. Those conditions of worth, I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying, you,'re lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable. all of us, not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive, it's not, or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were were taught where they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough.

And I get attention when I excel in something that they like. And so, let me do more of that to get more attention. Exactly.

And if I lose at that, then.

They'Re not going to love me.

That's exactly right. So, it all becomes like people think like, if I do these things, then I could be loved rather than you're just lovable. And so that's where most people lose the plot. And I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change or some, I just got to get to know them better or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it. But if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw? Not okay. That entitled behavior, not okay. And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this.

So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?

It's not easy. I mean, I think that they... Narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away. They'll be like, right, you,'re not an easy mark anymore. Right? So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them. This is dangerous.

But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

Yeah, but I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So it's a, because charming, charismatic people, I would say that always make sure they have humility.

There you go.

If you have the humility back.

That's the unicorn. That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble.

They're all that. They're incredible. And they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. There's a humble... That's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or you can see how they're talking to other people, their interests in other people. They're not not talking down to people, maybe because let's say they're in a service position that evening, right? That they're not, and not in a smarmy like, oh, the server is my best friend, but like they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status conscious. That kind of humility. You know, that they don't brag, you know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that they are. That's cool. They're not talking about, oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my... Nah, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because, again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic.

Self-Actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid. Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us?

I think that one in five of.

Your friends is a narcissist.

I mean, again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just in, I mean, it's a spitball number and it's just sort of boiled up in this world and it may be a urban myth, I don't know. It's hard to get good data. on this, right? You know, it's the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology because who's going to be honest about it, right? There's all these back doors we try to do to figure it out, but I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Tell me more about that. Because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focus on the.

Narcissist, the question is, what if I've.

Just been through this? Is there a sense of PTS that you're going to face a lot of pts. Yeah. You'll see it's a. There's confusion, self-doubt a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore. Sort of sense of, like, I can't be bothered with life, rumination, regret. Yeah. Something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part? I'm like, no, because that part wasn't really real.

It wasn't real. It was like this explosive.

It's when people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors, we call them. Things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically basically, like, completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships.

Because they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this?

What was I thinking? I'm an idiot, you know? Worst part. It's the self-blame and the self-shame because the self-blame is, this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known. I'm, I'm, I'm an. And then I, I'm a fool. And then they, a lot of people go back.

Why?

Right.

So here, why?

Because they think Let's talk a little bit. I want my whiteboard. Yes.

I got to use the whiteboard.

So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Okay? Step one is something called, I'll write it down, I'll lift it up. Love bombing. Okay?

Okay.

Love bombing is that big seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex.

Oh my God.

Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, Princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month. My lease is up. Love bombing. It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive. What it does, it's a narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags because you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep. That you're all like, or the unreal sex you're having or these amazing like constantly being these text messages or going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, red flag, what red flags? I'm having sex with a narcissist. It's incredible, yeah. The minute the narcissist knows they've got when you kind of let down your guard, because some people are like, this seems too good to be true. And then they're like, okay, I love you too. I I I'm. Boom. That's the day. They got you. Devaluing starts. Okay? Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs, like. Oh gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Or, oh my gosh. You know, it's like the digs. It's little, it's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like, where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves. Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

Now then, we're going to go through my life right now. Okay.

We go to something called the discard. Now, the discard is not always a breakup.

Is this where they won't speak to you for two weeks?

It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be, sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point, like the not narcissistic Person loses.

Like, I'm out.

I'm out. I can't do this. And then comes a phase.

Oh my gosh.

Called hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, they try to woo you back. Try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Now love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, seductive. It's a, Baby, what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me. This could be because they cheated on you. And they say things like, you,'re so much better. And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic. That idea, very edible, that you're the favored child, that you're the favored one. And the hoovering is, I'm choosing you. Then in the part of the hoovering, Is a dynamic called, you,'re going to love this one, it's my guess after the way you've been putting future. Future faking.

Okay.

Future faking is, no, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to or I'm going to get therapy or I know, let's just put it off for another six months. For sure, I'm going to do it then. They keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like, they're promising the thing you want six months. We're gonna have kids. We're gonna have kids. Yeah, for sure. You know, like, I just need to get my career established, and now you're 50 and you don't have kids. Or, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there, and I know you said there's some better opportunities for you. You're waiting. Or, I'm gonna get into therapy. I'm gonna work on these anger issues. And then if you push it, God, you know what? You're really impatient.

You're big, you are not a nice person. Can't you see what I'm going through.

In my life, and I need time? Yeah. that's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done. And so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered because then it goes back to.

The cycle goes again and again and again.

So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in. Oh, they bring you back in. and they'll do that if let's say they're the one who left you, okay? And you finally start getting your life in order and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up or you're in a good place, but don't want a job you want. They don't want you happy. They don't like losing and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination.

Oh, my gosh.

So I tell people, like, maybe you could get a good A good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out. And then get out, like before you get in too deep.

But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you and then you're like, you know what? They're gonna get mad. I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me. Like it's not you, it's me. I'm not ready. They're gonna get mad. So either way, once you get it.

Once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're kind of sunk. Yeah, because they actually want to get out. You want to get out. You want to get out on the first weekend. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. And it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway.

Oh my gosh.

And that's actually been documented in research.

So a narcissist is a bad driver?

Bad driver. Dangerous driver, not bad, not like dumb driver. Fast, cut people off, Hong Kong road rage driver.

Anything else we should talk about?

Last thing.

Yes, give it to me.

Gaslighting.

Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a question.

Gaslighting is the word of our time, and if nothing else, I want your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here.

So what is gaslighting?

Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking apart of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything, and I were to say, and we, we had our time. We were going to meet the date. And I said, you never said we're meeting on that day. You'd be like, what? And then you go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute, say, Did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself. Okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. and they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. No, no, no, you did. You really did. Like you said that. Or, I'm not being too sensitive. And now you're getting more and more worked up, right? Correct. Yeah. And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes, somebody is a little bit crazy. Like, have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing? Not only they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they close it by saying there's something wrong with you.

Oh man.

And you start believing it. Oh wow. Many people are gaslighted, will start wondering maybe I'm the narcissist, maybe I have a mental illness, maybe I need to get help, there's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person.

Oh my gosh.

That's the process. And so, but initially the gas, the person who's being gaslighted gaslighted, has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together, maybe this is a family member, maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You've got to have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, you say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're.

Meeting and don't ever do that to me again.

The gaslighter's probably going to move on.

To a new target.

They'll stop with you. Yeah, because yeah, so they'll say like, oh, this is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one. Right? But so early on when a person or a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now.

I'm going to stick with that.

That's what I'm talking about. That's a good one. Right? So, and then the gaslighter will probably lose interest and, but they'll always get their last digging, they'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But you, but just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gas. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday, literally three hours, all gaslighting, because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work, it happens in families, it happens in relationships. It happens from the world at large. large. Like, no, every, everyone can, every, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, it can't be equal. It's like, yeah, good job.

So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say without them saying? Because I feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like they bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, you, this, this, this. this and I'll be like, well, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.

That's gaslighting. That all that exhaustion, it's very exhausting.

It's like, let's just focus on this thing.

So a great example, a gaslighty thing that people will do is they will say something like in a relationship. And, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person. And there's been a lot of communication between the two of you, like, It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to me. This feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like, this isn't okay. They'll hit back with, let's go back to when you were in college and you're like, wait a minute. And then you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard. Say, okay, I'm gonna table that. Let's, we'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it. Let's go back to the original. So keep going back to the original.

There's a personal issue.

Until they have a discussion and resolve.

Don't get mad.

And they won't discuss.

They won't discuss.

So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve. In these relationships. There's no resolve.

There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance. So you just gotta accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's gonna be their way or the highway. Correct. And they won't be flexible. and you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time or you can choose to move on.

Right.

But being in an argument is only going to make your life worse.

Correct. And you might say like that seems lonely, yeah. And so I have worked with people who have stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships, who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really.

Build friendships, Unless the narcissist tries to.

Control them hanging out with their friends. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissist, it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community, some people do this in online communities, if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way, develop hobbies they care deeply about, garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music, something like that. I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that and they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched and they're like, you know, I know I'm not, and they said, like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they found, everyone's got someone, everyone finds someone and they find there's someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things, finding their way, finding their way to get that support. on the, when they're not being, when they have to stay. Because that's where you get ungaslighted, right? Person saying, no, that's not okay or this person's conduct isn't okay. But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't. Stop trying to fix it.

Stop trying to fix it. It's just not gonna work.

That was probably my challenge, is I wanted to fix, which again, your athletic background, it makes makes sense. I mean, there are people who have had a track record of being able to get things done. They're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.

I think I was attracted to it and then one of the things that...

It's attractive.

And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place.

Correct. Correct. And it's, it's very, it is very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No, a relationship is being unselfish. Yeah. Being on selfish. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this, this dinner? for work and you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work because you care about them and even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously and the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about grinding your teeth and being irritated you have to go, but really that giving with grace. But I'll be frank with you, it really comes down though to finding somebody who has a good personality. And I keep using this word agreeableness. Being agreeable. Agreeable. And that's actually a personality style.

So, how do you know when someone's agreeable?

All those things I talked about, flexibility.

And warmth and kindness. Just the time, just seeing it over.

Time and seeing their words for their actions.

Agreeable men make less money.

Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly. Bless their hearts. And so, for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's.

Gonna be agreeable is a lot lower. So, you just need to find a unicorn. Someone who's agreeable and who has money.

I have not.

You've never seen that.

I know, yes I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head.

Okay.

Billionaire. Most agreeable man in the world.

Sweet, sweet, handsome.

Married to a raging narcissist. Do you care? Oh man. He's a darling. Darling.

But just gets walked all over in his relationships.

Oh my God, beyond. Walked all over.

But in his business, he can go and have- He killed it. He can be assertive and yeah, I've.

Met a few agreeable rich folks. I mean, really, and we're not just rich, like really good at what they do. They, unicorns, like they definitely, but what was interesting, you know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy, at the end of their career, they got taken down. They got like people in the company, they were a soft target.

They were the vulnerable targets. So we're gonna make them scapegoat and they're gonna take the equity from them or they're gonna be the one to blame.

They got a group of people who.

Were willing to fight for what they-.

Well, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.

They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs or whatever.

And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation.

It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show. that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a healing journey of the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things, and to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative. and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in and channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, the Masked Man. Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that men just don't talk about it. And then they hold it in and then they become angry or reactive or rageful or dismissive or whatever it is, they put a mask on. And that shame causes that mask. At least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So for many years, I had to learn how to unwind and heal that process. It's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. It got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled, and I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30 to I just want to collaborate and I just want to support others and work together. and it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling.

What do you think the function was of trying to win?

Oh, to get love and be accepted. To get love and be accepted.

I was gonna say maybe to be safe too.

Yeah, to get love, to be accepted, to feel like I was, yeah, to fit in, you know, 'cause I didn't feel like I had any friends growing up. So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me. Right, right. And I'm desirable.

Right.

If I lose, then who wants to.

Be, you know, around me? Yeah, and then the shame gets activated, but it's also safety. That's why if I win, I'm safe. That's the ultimate get for any human being. I'm not alone. I'm not alone if I'm accepted, I'm safe.

If I'm loved, I'm safe. And it's funny when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like over the last eight years.

Because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people. You're helping each other accelerate together. Right, but there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade.

And then, yeah, I'm at the top.

Of the mountain, everyone else is down. Yes, if they leave you, it's not even the, it's not the collaboration that's.

The issue, it's the potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then and I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind.

Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody and that man, that agreeable billionaire, was collaborative from the day one of his career.

So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of?

It's not easy. It's with the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense? It's a good defense. You better have a good Defense.

Get your contracts in order. Get everything.

Contracts in order, document. Don't put your head in the sand. I mean, the reason narcissism is proliferated the way it has is enabling. People keep giving it a free pass. Oh, come on now, you know, don't hate the player, hate the game. It's not how that works, right?

It's a player.

And yeah, so it's a player. Yeah. No. So like it's a, we have all this kind of culture around, and in some ways people like want to see.

They.

The best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic, we know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic.

Want to believe they're... We want to.

Believe that they're going to be... We want to believe that this charismatic person is really is real. That someone this larger than life is larger than life. rather than an ordinary person who just has ordinary things and could fall and we want superheroes. That's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.

You've got some great books.

Thank you.

Don't you know who I am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I stay or should I go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist, it just feels like the best way to set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow, learn the person, Learn as long as you can, spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos, very inspiring. So if you want to make sure you learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.

Learn the person, take it slow, and don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck, And it quacks like a duck. You know, scorpion sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got, it's gonna sting you. So, walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't.

Pick it up again. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books?

You do workshops now? I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram, we often put, you know, we put the let people know what's coming up then. We're gonna have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements. Every day we have a new video coming out. So, you will be 365 days wiser.

If you just keep watching.

Yeah. Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?

Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere. Everywhere, there we go. Okay, cool. A couple final questions. This one is called the Three Truths. That's what I asked everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on Earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?

If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.

Those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramani, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, who have gone through a lot of this, who have always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university on an academic level, and now to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life.

Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor.

Absolutely it is. And it's gonna keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's gonna keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.

There you go. Dr. Ramani, thank you. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

What should the adult be saying or doing for the younger version of themselves that is having an emotional human experience that is not their age in this moment. What's the conversation or the...

It's exactly what they wished at age eight that someone would have said to them.

We all know what that is.