How To SPOT & DEAL With Narcissists! (Overcome The Narcissist) | Lewis Howes

Think about seeing a toxic person. I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives, and this is why toxic people are so challenging, because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use, this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my single biggest fear, and it was an issue for me when I first started writing it. Is I'm gonna be honest, you can use this book for manipulation.

Yeah, of course.

And that scares me.

And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then start using it.

It scares me.

So how can you tell the difference? The subtle cues. These are very subtle now.

Very subtle, yeah. So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you can, if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control. And if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, non-verbal, verbal and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, non-verbal and vocal. And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knock it out of the park, like they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt. that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.

Okay, what are those cues?

Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll let's talk about as many as we can. So...

This might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Extremely successful, they could be successful, they could seem credible, trustworthy, but might be super narcissistic underneath.

Yes, so there's a couple danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right? So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping. So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book. And I was like, you haven't heard of that news yet. I also talk about Britney Spears in the book. 'cause there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. Yes. So Lance Armstrong, in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping, and he does what's called a lip purse. So lip purse is, okay, when we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture. So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back, or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go, And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie, a lot of the time-- so we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called Lie to Me. So I have youe Lie to Me. Play this Lie to Me game. Diagnose your own tells. It's very important to know your own tells because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And one of the-- you- should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your mind. Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies, that was one of the biggest indicators. So in Lie to Me game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference. If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one? Man, that'd be interesting. Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again, right before someone's about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story, they go, Okay, and they lip purse right before they're going to do it, and that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's going to get us into trouble. So we're like, stop it, stop it, stop it, and we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, how much do you weigh? And she'll go, mmm. Like literally close those lips because no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture. And so that's the first thing is you want to look for some of the bigger cues, withholding gestures. Lip purse is one, a sudden distancing behavior. So we also noticed that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie, like as if it's smelly. so like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures, oh it was so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative. It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like, and they do a shame touch, the universal shame.

Touch is when people touch their fingers.

To the side of their forehead.

This happened to me.

Oh gosh, I'm so embarrassed. So they usually tell the truth and they do like this. Yes, because they're actually embarrassed, right? So these are all good, like congruent, right? Right, we're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative, nonverbal, and people shaking their head. I can't believe that happens, right? Like they, oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes, we're seeing fear, we're seeing sadness, congruent, right? Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories, we often see people will lip purse and they try.

To get away from it.

So they'll say a statement and then, you know, and then, and they're literally like as as far away, I hope I'm not messing up my audio there, as far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back, they'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair, and that's because physically we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like. So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing, and there's a lot of cues that we can't control. So blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is liars have higher blink rates. They blink more. Yeah, actually, in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I actually break this down on my YouTube channel, so you don't have to read the book if you want to see it, where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started. So very, very full of cues because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked a very difficult question and she, all of a sudden, her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate. So she starts to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, oh, I know a very narcissistic manipulative person who has a very high blink rate.

Interesting.

Because they're literally trying to block out the lie or the manipulation. And so they'll sound really good, but they're really processing a lot. And you're like, why are they blinking so much? And it's because they're trying to process.

Oh my goodness.

So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them. And I do think I really think manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep that up.

Yes.

And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them. But for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at, you know, Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes. So spoiler alert, Theranos did not go well. I feel like I always have to say that. So one of her interesting cues is I don't know if you've ever seen her talk. She has a really, she uses a really deep voice, like, fakely deep, like, down here. And people used to say, like, is that real? It's because she read in some Q book, it wasn't mine because my book wasn't out then, thank goodness, she read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register. When I'm talking to my toddler. Right, right. When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here. You know, hey baby, how are you? But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. Right, right. You wouldn't feel competent. No, and it wouldn't, people would go, I can't, I'm not taking her or taking her seriously. So she read that study obviously. And went an octave higher. There you go. and went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone. It was like one step lower than her voice tone. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this and you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your Spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural. And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register.

Wow.

So there are cues that they will eventually bring.

Don't drink alcohol.

No, I'm not drinking. And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol.

Or you're gonna get caught.

So like you can't keep it up for that long. It is that she was faking that cue, we think.

I think you're also just, your body is out of integrity. Like the more you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I felt this from the past 'cause I've been out of integrity in my life at different times from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right? For little white lies to bigger stuff hiding from my parents or whatever it is. They feel bad. So you're like, oh, like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you gotta like keep the lie up and you're like, eventually you're gonna explode or you're gonna have a heart attack or something?

It's gonna leak.

It's gonna leak. It's gonna leak.

Like, those are the cues. You leak those cues and like those are the cues that we're looking for. Like, I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad, like even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed.

Right.

Just then. Yeah. Because when you think about, oh, I'm like, think about seeing a toxic person. I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives and this is why toxic people are so challenging. because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now we can do it.

What do you mean? We got to be nice to them or something?

Yeah. So like if you have a toxic person and this is the thorn and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most competent self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic People. You have a colleague or co-worker or family member that you don't like, right? And you have to break out the fake warmth cues.

Oh, hi.

How are you?

Oh, right.

And so what do we do? We fake smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to see you.

Right?

And like, you know, don't look like it, right? Or we say, oh yeah, somehow, oh, that sounds good. Congratulations.

Right.

Now your LA roots are coming back to you.

And that's why Toxic People challenge us, is because they come into our lives. We know we're supposed to be warm. And so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and it makes us feel bad and then we're trying to overcompensate for it. And so you know what the antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect.

Of the book is like, don't keep them around.

Yeah. Keep those people around because it will leak and so set boundaries around them.

So what do you mean it will leak? Like your integrity will leak because your Constantly trying to be nice, but they're.

Actually out of integrity because you don't want to be.

Is that right?

Right.

That's exactly right. So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this person.

That's right. And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with yourself. Yep, exactly. With yourself. That was a question you asked. That was a question. And I'm like, Yes, it was. Yes, yes, yes. That was perfect because you were asking a question I knew. Yes, is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries, we have to have some of.

Those people we deal with. But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and.

You have to fake niceness, and that feels really bad.

What happens if, let's just say there's a person you don't like.

Yeah.

Maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like and you don't like being nice to them. You don't like being nice to them.

Because you feel like, why am I.

Spending, I just don't. Nothing wrong with them, they're just not my person.

Yeah.

Totally. Let's say you're in a work environment.

Yeah.

And you're at a company, you got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here. Yeah. Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person? friendly, fake, how are you interested? Even though you've been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don't like them. Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months and say, you, know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I've been fake. That I don't connect with you, I don't like you. I think you're out of integrity, I think you're inauthentic. And maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd.

Rather be honest with you and fake nice to you. Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? Sure. So, I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So, I try not to give, like, fake it. I don't roll that way. I just think it's exhausting. I think it's going to leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So, if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them, right? You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So, that is something that you can be authentic about because To do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting. So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff.

Don't go right into competence.

Yeah, right, like stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need a fake sitting with you for coffee, but you know what.

We can get stuff done. You know what, we align on goals.

We create boundaries around the, hey, let's go have coffee. I'm so busy, I'm so busy today.

But you know what, let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So get back to the mission on the task on hand, the competence. And maybe you've just got to be like, okay, this is someone where 20 seconds a day, I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake, la-di-da with everyone, and I'll just wait and see. I'm going to get stuff done.

And then I'll move on to the next one. That's it. Exactly. Because at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. And also, even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be, listen, I'm not really into connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us, like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster. That's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's competent?

What can you highlight about them that's competent? What if you don't feel like they're warm or competent? You're like, this person on a team is just, they can't get anything done, they're not smart, and they have fake.

Attitude around me all day. I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it.

Like, you've got, like, go to your boss.

Right, and say, Hey, I just-- Can you put me on a different team? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say, like, I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done and they are causing issues on the team. Like, I don't like to ignore that stuff. Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is.

Not warm nor competent and doesn't treat.

You with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, Set a boundary or get help.

Give them my number.

I don't live with it. Yeah, don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fake warmth.

Right. What's been the, I think I asked you this last time, what's been the charisma strategy?

Yeah.

Do you want to call it a strategy?

You weren't sure about that. You weren't sure.

I don't know what the word is right, but what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months? that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this.

There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft because I just learned it. And this is actually brought to me by one of my male readers. And I'm so curious. Okay, do you agree with this, Lewis? Okay, here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding, affirmative nods, upside down, right?

Are yes.

I nod all the time. Yeah, yes, you're an nodder. It's really high warmth. We love it. We love it. Is it good? Yes, nodding is great. Because vertical nods, and by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they'll nod, they nod sideways. Sideways. Sideways. That's different. Okay, so just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's yes.

In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer. That's cool.

That's why you're a good interviewer, is because you'll not be like, keep going.

Keep going, keep going. I'm just kind of like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, yeah, it's.

Just gonna be like, a very slow, like, I'll pause and be like, okay, cool. Okay, well, actually you're right. Slow nodding is tell me more. Fast nodding is finish up. Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Okay, I got it. I got it, right, right, right. Okay, so that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three, triple nod, like I got it. If you want them to keep going, an introvert, uh-huh, yes. Uh-huh, okay, so that's the difference. That's number one. So I shared about this, I taught it, and then a couple of my male readers said to me, you know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret nonverbal cue between guys. No, I don't know what this cue is.

Here's what they said.

If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him, guy to guy, you nod up. Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you.

Hey, good to see you. Oh, wow, that's so true. Is it true?

That's so true.

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, good to see you. Yeah.

Good knowledge. Good to see you.

Yeah.

Hey, what's up buddy? Okay.

Yeah, it's so true. Okay, so this was, so I snuck.

It into the book. Wow, that's fascinating.

I wonder, is that like biology? Is that- Yes, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking. I started watching men. I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends. And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body. And we're saying, I know you, I trust you. Look, I'm opening, I'm acknowledging you, and I feel trustworthy.

Yes.

When you don't know someone, but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your job.

You go, I don't know you, but I see you.

I got you. I got you.

I'm here for you, kind of.

You can't see my jugular, but I'm here for you.

I'm gonna protect myself.

But I see you, bro. Exactly. I think that that's where it comes from. It's like a, do I know you or do I not know you? So in that sense, yes. That makes sense. This is a high warmth cue.

Hey, buddy, what's up?

Right, it's high warmth, you're showing your jugular. This is a high competence cue. Hello.

Let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core. Okay, the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them, the inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed. a sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving. Serving.

Insecure.

Deeply insecure, lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors, And those are presentations, charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also-- Can you have those.

Things and not be narcissist?

You can't.

'Cause I'm a very curious person. I care, you know.

So here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious and when you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold to them. They are the unicorns of the human beings. Like, you know, someone who is confident and charismatic. When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I literally, I'm like, okay, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look googly eyes, 'cause I'm thinking, and then of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find out what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing, the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers. I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous up front. It's all a front game, right? So what happens then, the curtain comes down across all your common sense and.

You miss the amazing.

Yeah. And people, and if you, either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it.

You justify, well, yeah.

Yeah, you know, he's got a big job, or she's really stressed, or she doesn't mean that, or that's just their culture. I was listening, I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean?

Like dismissive interrupting? Dismissive like, okay, all right. You know, you're talking and then I.

Not only cut in, but it's basically like, your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know what's really, yeah. Okay, so you share some of these signs of malignant narcissism.

No, that's okay, so let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about.

Titleman, yes.

Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh my gosh.

Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Like, I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best. no insight, very little empathy, kind of, but very like big sales person-y, that's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can, they can. And that's a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, and when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, We're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the Me Too era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists. Right.

So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone, or your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, Check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things. But the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing. But now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not gonna happen. That's a fool's errand. So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out?

Or how does it... How do we navigate that? How do we make it simple? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin? They're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you say, rip off the Band-Aid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking, cutting you off. And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate. Eliminate. Have no more toxins.

If you have a little bit, you're just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.

It's going to be holding on to it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never going to change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So, and then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, you, it's like you're in a deposition. Yes, no, okay, sounds good. Sure. Now, man, narcissists don't like that because.

They'Re going to keep coming and digging and digging and digging.

They're going to bait you. They're gonna bait you. And they, when I tell you when they bait you, they don't play.

They go for everything.

They go for everything that's gonna make you angry.

They start making stuff up.

They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it.

Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?

And so then some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist is like, game on. And they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. phenomenal study that came out this year and over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, it's, this is not, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter. Oh my gosh. And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain.

Crazy.

To not get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me.

This person DM me or this person is kidding on me.

They're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. Okay, so jealousy is normal. We are a. Actually, we're a pair bonded species. We human beings. We are. We. We liked. We pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. Said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. Right. They were still sexually monogamous. With one person. They weren't banging you. They were banging someone else.

You were.

Hate or in a relationship with them, you went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay? But we tend to be pair-bonded, we tend to be monogamous. All right? So jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person, if somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all that Darwinian stuff.

Reproduction.

Pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy, though. That starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and negative mood states and all that. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples, And, or work with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad, 'cause I'm.

Like, yeah, this thing's kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically, on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were gonna have to see, who had hit on him, and this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh? He doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I still have a dog in the fight. But it doesn't mean you're like, I.

But I'm letting it stress you out.

And like talking to them about it. It's only because we're talking about it.

Yeah, of course, yeah. And so the path, what did you.

Say with the paranoid?

The pathological jealousy.

Pathological jealousy. That's a narcissist.

That's more paranoid, it's more antagonistic, it's more about you must be doing something. You're doing such accusatory, it's almost delusional.

Oh my gosh, okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based?

No, it's partly trauma, it's also that temperament, it is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment, it's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong and they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's gonna go down. We're about to see, 'cause what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world where every moment being documented and shared and... Since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data. Because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were-- because I had kids way before this, so I did not-- the only people who saw their pictures were the people actually-- your friends and family-- put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing. Came over to the house and said, look at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So is it, do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever, 10 years old?

It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology say.

Oh, this may not be entirely cool. Yeah, what happens when you're not agreeing? What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool.

I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, There's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you.

Yeah, in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. You're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

What would you say is the main traits of a narcissist?

Grandiosity, really wanting to be the center of attention, this veneer of confidence, being very easily wounded. Oh, wait a minute, you complimented this other person's whatever it is, they get so wounded, like, well, why didn't you compliment mine? Right?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, you think that person's attractive? They'll like ice you out.

Wow.

So super jealous too or no?

Very. But they act like they don't care. Oh, you want to do go ahead.

I have no idea. Like passive aggressive jealous or something, right?

Yeah.

Very passive aggressive. Yeah. Huh. Any other signs that people should look out for if they're like starting to.

Date someone, they're like, huh, this seems very narcissistic. I think that Jekyll and Hyde quality that, you know, one minute you're like this and the next minute you're incredibly cruel. You can be incredibly warm and loving and incredibly cruel. And the two, you toggle between the two in a way that is frightening.

It's like a split personality, huh?

Yeah, yeah. But it's not because the narcissist is doing the thing, you reel them in, the narcissist reels the person in with the charm, with the charm, with the seduction, with the you are the center of the universe, and then, oh, you're getting too close to me, so I'm gonna be cruel.

So it's interesting. So it's like, if you're with someone who's showing these traits and they're just wowing you and they're so nice and loving and grandiose. But then if you truly open up and you want to get to know their heart, that's when they start to do other things or what happens then? Yeah, yeah. You get too close. You get too intimate.

You get too intimate with them. Right. Either you're being too intimate with them. Although they want you to be somewhat intimate with them so they know how to use it against you.

Right.

Tell me your deepest darkest secrets that.

I can use it against you later. I don't use it against you in the moment when you are most vulnerable. Wow. Or they don't want you to know too much about them, right?

-They hide certain things.

-Well, they hide their vulnerabilities. They don't know how to get authentically close to another person.

-Why does someone become a narcissist?

-Oh, that's... You know, I think so many people, anybody who's had experience with someone like that wants to know that. And you'll see that, you know, this is when we talk about we marry our unfinished business, right? So it's the person who grew up feeling very... They didn't get their needs met. They were either neglected or they grew up with a narcissistic parent. So what do we do with parents who don't meet our needs? On the one hand, we rebel against them. We say, I'm not going to be like that. I'm not going to choose someone like that. So the narcissist doesn't choose another narcissist. If the narcissist grew up with a narcissistic parent, they don't choose another narcissist. They choose someone like the other parent who was with the narcissistic parent. And then what they do is they take on the traits of the narcissistic parent. Now, why do they do that even though they were so injured by that kind of parent? It's like the person who grew up with an alcoholic parent or a person who couldn't self-regulate. Why did they become the angry yeller even though their parent was the angry yeller? And they said, I would never do that. How do you get close to a parent who couldn't get close to you? You become like them. That's your connection to them. This is completely outside of your awareness. You don't realize that. But we still, the wish never dies that we can be close to our parents. The wish never dies. So what do we do if we don't process this?

So if we process it, then we know...

If we process it, then we know, okay, I have to watch out for that. I have to find another way to grieve what I didn't get growing up. I have to really go through that grief process and I'm going to have that loss is going to live with me, but it's going to live with me in a way that isn't so sharp. So you really have to grieve it. But if you don't grieve it, you repeat it.

You take on the trait of one of your parents or something.

You take on their traits because that helps you feel close to them. Oh, I'm going to feel close to you in this way. This is not in your conscious awareness. Wow. And then people don't realize it. They think, oh my gosh, one day someone says to them, you are exactly like your mom, your dad. And they go, oh my god, I am.

Right?

If they're not, if they can get past sort of like the narcissistic protection.

Yeah, of course.

Which would be one.

I don't hear it.

I'm not like my parents. No, I'm not like them at all. I'm not like them at all. Like if you could take a videotape of a scene from your childhood, and you take a videotape of how you're acting now with your own child, you would be stunned. Wow.

So how does someone, if they're, okay, they've realized they've, maybe there's narcissistic traits or that's a full on narcissist that they're in a relationship with, what are the next steps they should take? Is there a way to actually, I mean, you can't really change someone in a relationship when I'm hearing you say, you can't, no matter what you do, the person's not gonna change. Right? So do you need to change in order for them to change or is it just, if you're with someone who's diagnosed narcissist There's no hope for actually healthy growth in the relationship.

Well, someone who has narcissistic traits generally doesn't come to therapy because they don't think they have a problem.

They're like, no, I'm good.

Right.

So how they come in is they're having some relational difficulty.

Right.

And the relational difficulty is either they're coming in for couples therapy because the other person dragged them there.

Yeah.

You know, so often we say that, you know, the reason that people come to therapy is to deal with the people who won't go to therapy.

Right.

You know, you're coming to therapy to deal with the person in your life who won't come to therapy.

It's funny that, yeah, the three previous relationships I was in, I was like, we need therapy. We need to like, we're getting to a point where I was like, somebody's not working here. Let's go to therapy and like try to work this through. None of my partners wanted to go to therapy. They resisted, resisted, resisted. And I was like, what? We're not figuring it out on our own. Like, I'm trying, you're trying, it's not working.

Let's go.

Let's have someone look at it. No, it's like so much resistance. I was just like, Right.

And so in that case, I'm not.

Saying you were all narcissists, but there.

Was a lot of- no, no, no. So I'm not even talking about, so let me differentiate. So there's, if a narcissistic person, meaning diagnosed narcissistic, or even people with narcissistic traits, they tend not to come on their own to therapy unless they actually agree to come in couples, and they're coming because their partner is making them come.

Yes, that's the only reason.

Or, and then you kind of see like how flexible are they with their story, right? Because everybody's coming in with their story, both people, both perspectives.

Right.

The other reason, like and maybe you should talk to someone, John, right? When I talk about him, he's this guy who's in his 40s, he's married, he has some kids, and he is incredibly insulting to me from the minute, you know, he walks in the door. Everybody else is the problem. You know, in fact, the chapter is called Idiots because he says everybody else is an idiot, right? Why can't people, why aren't people as as smart as he is, why aren't people as competent as he is? Why can't people do things right? Why does he, and he's like the beleaguered victim. You see that sometimes, right?

I'm so talented and smart, I'm the.

Victim, 'cause nobody else is. And the victim of all these other people are causing so much anxiety in my life. Like why are they doing things the way that they should be done? Why are they complaining about all these things? Not realizing that he's the one doing the complaining. About everything, yeah. Right, right. You know, we call it complaining from the victim position. You know, or being offended from the victim position.

Sure.

Now everybody else is the problem. Or the reason that people are cruel to another person is they say, you know, like I was the victim, so I can hurt you twice as much. So if you hurt me, I have a right to hurt you.

Back.

Right, right. I'm doing this to protect myself.

Right.

So when John came in, he was, you know, you very much say, a lot of people would say, I don't want to treat somebody like that because I don't know how much progress they're going to make because if they can't self-reflect, well, you have to be able to see yourself. In the book, I talk about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. So, idiot compassion is what we do with our friends. So, your friends say, like, listen to what my partner did or my mom or my kid or my sibling or whatever it is. And we say, yeah, that's terrible. You're right. How dare they? You're right. They're wrong. It's just we just back them up blindly. because we think we're being supportive. But if you actually listen to your friends over time, you might hear that there's a pattern that they are kind of complaining about similar types of things. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. Don't say that. In therapy, what we offer is we offer wise compassion. And in wise compassion, we hold up a mirror to you to help you to see yourself in ways that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And compassion is the key word here because we're doing it compassionately. So, someone who comes in and they're not able to self-reflect, they're not able to see the reflection in the mirror and say, Yes, oh, I have a role in this too. Yes, it's true the other person does this, but I have a role in this too. So, when you are asking about change, when people come in for couples therapy, I always give them an assignment before they come in. And the assignment is this, because normally the first thing that will happen if I don't is they're going to come in and they're going to name all the ways that their partner needs to change, and then we get nowhere. So I say to them, I want you to come up with how you can make this relationship better. I want you to come up with what you're going to do, what are you going to be working on to make this relationship better, even if your partner never changes. And they each have this assignment. So from day one, they come in, and even though they might have a lot of reasons that things aren't working out that they think are their their partner's issue, their goal in therapy is to work on the one thing or the two things or the three things that they think they can do to make the relationship better. And it changes the whole course of the couples therapy because it's not about changing the other person. The magic of this is that they say, well, what's the point of doing it if they're not going to change? Well, first of all, again, going from the me and the you to the us is things are going to go more smoothly. because you're going to be doing something to improve the relationship. But the other part of it is, and where the magic comes in is, you can't change another person, but you can influence change in another person. So when you do something differently, you are helping the other person to change. No one changes because you say, I want you to change in this way. That doesn't really happen. They might do it, they might pay lip service to it, it doesn't really last. But if you start changing, if you make it easier, you help them to change by making it easier for them to change. So, let's say they really need space. Give them some space. Let's say you try to control them less. Let's say that you don't engage in the same familiar argument over and over and over. Maybe you do something kind for them. And then people say about that. They say, well, why should I do something kind? Why should I go first? If they would be nice to me, I'll be nice to them. It doesn't matter. You need to go first because Someone needs to do something. Someone needs to change the dynamic. It's like a dance. And so if you do something nice for them, you might notice that they, not because it's a tit for tat, not because they're doing it because you, it's because they feel safer. They feel more loving toward you. They feel like, oh, that was really nice. I really liked that. Now, I actually want to, on my own volition, want to do something nice for you.

Yeah.

And what if, what if someone says, I'm gonna, I'm gonna improve all, you know, 3, 5, 10 areas that I know can improve. And after six months, the other person's like, yeah, I deserve all these things, and I'm not gonna give any more.

Then what?

You keep coming back. Have you seen that where people come back to therapy? It's like, okay, I've done this, I did this, I did this, and they're still not happy. They're still upset, and they're still not.

Shifting in certain ways. Well, first of all, I think that what they engage in then What I call the pain Olympics, which is like, whose pain is greater? You know, like, I'm working so hard, I'm working 12-hour days. Well, I'm taking care of the kids, or I'm doing this, or, you know, like, I'm doing all of this kind of labor in the relationship, and you're doing all of it. It's, there's no, there's no winning the pain Olympics.

Like, let's just say that you're both.

At a 10, okay? You both win. You both are in pain. You both lose. But you both lose if you keep trying to compare it. The point is, you're both struggling. And what's really interesting about couples is that couples don't tend to tell the other person exactly how they're struggling in a relationship. Instead, they act it out. They act out their fears or their disappointment or their hurt in other ways, but they don't directly say, this is how I'm struggling. And so if you're in couples therapy, you're gonna start talking about those things. And if you're not, then you're not really doing couples therapy.

Right.

So, you know, I mean, I think that your therapist will tell you very early on, like, this is the work that we're doing and this is, I think some people think that couples therapy is you come in, you download the argument of the week or the struggle of the week, you leave, you come back the next week and you download the new thing. No, that's like talking to a friend. There's no point to that.

What should the point of therapy be?

The point is that you want to be doing, most of the therapy of couples therapy takes place outside of the therapy room, meaning what happens in between sessions. So we came in, we talked about this, you learned something new about yourself, you learned something new about your partner, and then we always say insight is the booby prize of therapy. That you can have all the insight in the world, but if you don't make changes out in the world between sessions, the insight is useless. So then, okay, you have this insight, you learn something, what are you going to do with that knowledge? Use it. Why are you wasting your time and your money coming in here every week? -You're not gonna use it.

-What'S been the thing that you've seen as a therapist where you realized, oh, this is something that I have done in my relationships or oh, actually this is a really great lesson for me because I used to do that and I don't want to do that anymore or something like that. Has there been anything?

-I would say all of it.

-Really?

-I mean, I think that that's what makes makes relationship so interesting and people think that it's only happening to them. They're like, you only do this, you know, it's really interesting that they think that. You're the only one that does this.

My friends don't do this.

Nobody does this. Their partners don't do this or I only act this crazy around you, right? Like I don't do this and nobody else elicits this kind of response in me. Well of course they don't elicit that kind of response in you because you're not in an intimate relationship with them. They're not Bringing up all that unconscious stuff that comes up when you're in that intimate relationship. So, I think that the good news for couples is that anything they bring in, I've seen it before. I've experienced probably some of it before. And so universal. And if people could stop being so, people can blame and shame. They blame the other person, they feel shame themselves. and then they don't really make progress because they're afraid to really look at these things because they're really uncomfortable talking about them. But when they find that, oh, this is just the human condition, and this is what happens when we get scared. This is what happens when we feel threatened. And maybe it's not even your partner who's threatening, but it's something about being this close to someone or there's something your partner does that reminds your nervous system of something that happened earlier. Who am I talking to right now? Am I talking to the child who had to come up with a way to protect yourself from whatever was happening? And it was very effective. It was ingenious as a child because you had to. You didn't have agency. Or am I talking to the adult who has agency and doesn't need to use that way of protecting yourself that is actually creating some conflict in your relationship?

How do people manage that? if they're in a relationship with a.

Narcissist, I don't know. I think they gotta get out. That's the only solution that I can think of. I mean, I'm not an expert in narcissism. I've never had any success. But I tell you something. So, there's not very many therapists who can successfully treat narcissism. It takes a very special person to be able to do that. 99% of therapists will get nothing done, but there is something that does reliably help narcissists.

What's that?

Being in a genuine love relationship. That actually diminishes narcissism.

So tell me, what do you mean by that? Not being in a relationship with them, but being in a relationship with someone else?

If they are in a relationship where they truly love the other person, it's not that they just see the other person as a source of narcissistic gratification. The other person is not just someone to be drained. that they truly love that person.

But a narcissist would never do that, right?

It happens. It happens.

Really?

Yeah, psychiatry has been more pessimistic about personality disorders than we should be. And borderline personality disorder is another example. In the past, we've been very pessimistic. Now we're extremely optimistic and we think, oh, borderline personality disorder, there's an enormous potential for improvement. I hope someday we'll get there with narcissism, but it's more malleable than we thought.

Really?

Yeah, but not through treatment, it's through life. See, what's at the heart of narcissism is radical insecurity, massive insecurity.

Yeah. Huge insecurities.

Right.

Massive wounds.

Yeah.

And they don't feel like, what, they don't love themselves.

No, they don't. They feel that they are utterly unworthy. They might not be aware of it, might be unconscious, but that's what it is, that they're utterly unworthy. And so there's this hole inside of them they're constantly trying to fill, and they fill it with other people. And that's why it's so horrible being with them, because they're just sucking out of you, trying to fill this hole. The thing is, though, that if something real actually happens, like they do have a real relationship, or even graduating from college or getting a good job diminishes their narcissism, because suddenly they're not desperately empty.

Interesting.

But wouldn't it never feel enough? Like, well, I don't deserve this. I've got this great person in front of me, but I'm not worthy enough of deserving this. So I'm going to sabotage it. I'm going to suck. I'm going to blame them for everything.

Still, but how I feel. That's what I went through. It is not fun. Yeah, yeah. I'm not an expert in this. And as I said, what I'm talking about are studies that look at statistics.

I would agree with you, though. I think there's some narcissist. It's not going to work. what's the difference between a narcissist who is, feels like they don't deserve, they have a massive wound versus someone who's just feels unworthy, who's not a narcissist?

Yeah.

So like me and you growing up.

I know.

Yeah.

Who wants to suck the life out of people and blame everyone versus someone saying, I I'm. I know I feel unworthy. I take responsible for I'm responsible for these things. Yeah.

It's a question of where the pain goes. The narcissist puts the pain outward on others, right? The person, because I think they're unconscious of their unworthiness. Person who is aware of their unworthiness, pain goes in.

Wow.

And people tend to like them because, you know, they're always trying to please others.

They are, yeah. That was me. Yeah. That was me. Saying yes to everything and then resenting it later.

Yes.

It's like, yeah. That's fascinating.

But those people tend to be more successful in life, right? The narcissists are kind of alone and miserable because nobody wants to be with them, right? The guys who are always trying to please people, well they get depressed.

They get taken advantage of, yes. So what do you see for the future of the brain, dopamine, and creating happier, more fulfilling lives for ourselves when it seems like, and the statistics are showing that life expenses is actually dropping, at least in the USA over the last, I think, five to 10 years, it's actually dropping now where access to foods and things that are unhealthy for the body are making us needing these addictions more and more, cigarettes, whatever me, alcohol, plant medicine, all these things that people are doing to feel something. Social media, the phone, the addictions, all these different things, what do you see as the future of where we're going? And if someone truly wants to live a happier, more fulfilled life, what can they do in the face of the next decade of just distractions?

Yeah.

I don't think it's going to get easier for anyone with the accessibility to addictions, things, access the now gratification.

Yeah.

You know, think back to our prehistoric ancestors. Can you imagine going out on a hunt for a woolly mammoth? How much fun that must have been.

Be scary, fun, exciting.

Yeah, like you're with your buddies, like the tribe. you all depend upon one another, you all got a role, it's life or death, you could come home dead, you're gonna bring home meat. I bet that we don't experience anything like that our whole life that was as much fun as that. Related to that, like everyone I started out life poor, as a poor medical student. And now I'm financially more comfortable. And there are things I miss about being poor. Isn't that interesting?

Have you noticed that? I was sleeping on my sister's couch.

For a year and a half.

No money, broke. Eating mac and cheese and leftovers from her. I didn't have a car, so I'm walking everywhere and just like living by, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks a month. And there's something about that time that I'm like, God, it was so exciting to see, like, what could I create from this space of nothing?

Yeah, you're strategizing.

Yes.

Little wins are huge.

Huge. Someone said yes to meet with me. It was like all these things.

So as our society progresses farther and farther away from scarcity, we lose those opportunities to have these incredibly big wins that are gonna change our life. And so we overeat on junk food. We spend time with these trivial nonsense pleasures on our cell phones. because the big things are no longer in our life. It's no longer about finding sources of food to survive. It's now about, you know, how many views am I going to get with my latest post? It's not the same thing.

So what can we do over the next five, ten years as these distractions are going to become more prevalent?

We've got to think about meaning. We've got to think about what is meaningful. So for me, you know, writing books has become so meaningful and it's nice and hard and sometimes it makes me miserable, which is good. You've got to find something that's hard that will involve failure because that's how hard it is. You can't choose an easy life.

Really?

Yeah.

What happens if we choose an easy life?

We become miserable. We become miserable, bored, fat, sick, diabetic, all of those terrible things.

Do you have a chapter or a place in here that talks about meaning and finding meaning?

It's my next book. That's the next book.

That's the next book, yeah.

What is that one about, the unconscious mind? It's about the unconscious mind, yeah.

And what is the unconscious mind versus the conscious mind?

A lot of people have seen these pictures of the mind as an iceberg, right? Where there's this little teeny part above the surface and huge masses below the surface. That's the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind is responsible for everything that goes on inside our heads, that we don't have control over. Emotions, excitement, enthusiasm, interest. Most people don't think about this. You don't control what you're interested in, you know?

I mean, really?

Do you, somebody like football? Okay, I personally don't like football. There's nothing I can, well, I kind of do, but not that much, but there's nothing I can do to make myself passionate about football.

Here's the thing. I want to challenge you on this and tell me if I'm wrong. I never liked soccer. I played it growing up, and then I stopped playing it when I was a sophomore in high school and I started playing football. And then I was like, I never want to watch soccer. The only time I was interested in soccer was during the World Cup when I was like, okay, I can get behind everyone going out and like watching game and supporting the USA, right? But I never wanted to watch until a few years ago, I was just telling one of our producers here, Mike, that I went to a couple of LAFC games, their LA Football Club soccer team, right? And I was like, this is incredible. The energy, the experience. I got to know the players and I was like, became interested in the sport of soccer. And I was like, I want to go to more games. So how does that like, what does that mean then? If I'm not interested, but then I become interested in something.

Right. So we talked about, we talked about this pastor who took a month off and boom, the idea hit him.

Yes.

That came from his unconscious mind. He didn't dig it up. Right? It came to him. You went to the soccer game and you were given a gift. You were given the gift of excitement.

Yes. You didn't work for it.

That was a gift for your unconscious mind. And that's why trust is so important, that we have to trust that these gifts will come. We try to squeeze our unconscious mind and force it to give us things. It's going to rebel. We've got to kind of go through saying, Look, I've got a co-pilot. Or maybe I'm the pilot, maybe the other guy's, maybe I'm the co-pilot, maybe the other guy's the pilot and in charge. But it's a realization that you cannot control everything, that you have to be open to gifts that come from the unconscious mind.

So it's kind of like being curious about life. I think I'm gonna try this thing, I'm gonna check this out and see how it makes me feel.

Yeah, can I tell the story I wanted to tell?

Yes.

So I did this TEDx talk, right?

Yes.

And it's a big deal.

Yeah.

And I practiced-- Four years ago, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I practiced that every day for a month.

That's great.

Great to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Every day for a month. Every single day-- well, five days a week. When I went to work, first thing I did first thing in the morning is I ran through that speech. All right, so I get there, we do a dress rehearsal, get up there, and I'm giving my speech. I draw a blank halfway through. Nothing. I'm sweating over nothing.

Dress rehearsal.

Dress rehearsal. I got nothing. And I'm terrified and there's a dinner that evening and I skip the dinner. I go back to my hotel room and I'm memorizing, memorizing. So now it's the day of the thing and I'm about to go out and I realized, I say, look, I didn't shirk. I wasn't lazy. I did everything I could. and it wasn't enough.

Wow.

And so I said to my unconscious mind, We're all in this together. Be a pal and help me out. You know, I acknowledged that I didn't have control.

Ah.

And I was happy with how it went. My unconscious mind came through for me.

That was great.

But it came through for me as a friend, not as a servant. I didn't order it, I asked it.

So what happens to people who are extremely controlling in their life versus people that are more in surrender?

Yeah, those controlling people don't do well. Really? And a lot of times, you know, the unconscious mind has a sense of humor. You know, you know about the Freudian slip, right? Yes. A lot of times the Freudian slip will reveal a truth that you were trying to hide, but the unconscious mind says, tough luck. Yeah, you said this. Yeah, yeah. So, people always trying to be in.

Control, their unconscious mind is constantly sabotaging them.

So, the unconscious mind is in control? We share control. We share control. And we need to work in partnership. It is a partnership. And if you try to be the tyrant, like the people who are very much in control, the unconscious mind is going to mess with you.

So, what is the conscious mind versus the unconscious mind? The conscious mind is what every thought I am thinking or saying in this moment or what does it mean really?

Yes, the conscious mind tends to think rationally. you know, it thinks logically. It figures things out. The unconscious mind is very much about words. And it's funny, you know, the Greek word for words is logos. That's where we get logic from. So words and logic are very much connected. The unconscious mind doesn't use words. It uses feelings. It's about emotions. It's about a gut feeling. And people who have a good relationship with their unconscious mind they rely a lot on their gut feeling. So they'll see someone and they'll just have this gut feeling and they'll trust it. And that's their unconscious mind delivering them information.

Really?

Yeah.

Because what does the conscious mind try to do in every situation?

Well, let me give you an example. Think about the last time you said, let me sleep on that. Right? When you say, let me sleep on that, that's an acknowledgement that your conscious mind can't work its way through the problem.

Or it might react or the unconscious mind might react if I- You need your unconscious mind. Okay.

So, for example, think about making the decision about where to go to college. There are too many variables for the conscious, right? So, you visit all the different places and at some point you go, this is the right place for me.

And you don't know why. There's something within your unconscious mind that just has a feeling.

Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone is torn their dress, someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finally laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finally laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not, it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not, this is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the parks. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation. And I've watched families like practically, I mean literally screaming, We need this life, our grass mask comes on. No way. And I'm like, oh my God.

Pay attention, look here.

Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism? That we're perfect. False self.

Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask.

It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants. Oh, man. How the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies. They're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game.

Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity. It's so interesting because four years ago, I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about- interesting. and I interviewed a lot of psychologists and, you know, experts on these kind of personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I did, I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks, for many different years of my life to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. One of them being like the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry. I would be like moody. I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better until I could make sure that you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong, but it's not the authentic self.

Correct. And that, I mean, that's, maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self, because it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right? humanistic psychologists and even other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization. So if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger and they were deeply authentic. I mean, like, you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. Like, one was a man who was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.

What did that feel like?

It was an experience. Absolute serenity. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty, you know, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy, like he was just human joy and it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what and anyone looking at it, like there's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine, authentic, like, please come into my look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, Joy, and that man, the Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him, we were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day and it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable and he was magnificent. And it wasn't just, the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right?

In service.

He was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more, I want what they have, someone's got it better, why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with, and I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism, no mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. Oh, what a life. Like, what a gorgeous life.

You mentioned the deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist? to get like your point across, if you need to get it across.

You don't. You can't. So sometimes I tell people, okay, but.

Do we, life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Not with them.

So that we should just rip the band-aid, you know what I mean?

Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court, and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting of the narcissist, we're going to give the other parent full custody. Not happening. Yeah. State of California, 50 50.

All right.

Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50 of the time. And I don't want them with that influence 50 of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the day. And then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no, no one can say you have to be here, you have to stay here, you have to celebrate.

This holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots.

So how do you, so you just have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience. It's radical Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance. This thing sounds exhausting.

It is getting it.

It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago. Oh, it's miserable. Are you going to go for a.

Run in just your shorts and no shirt?

No, unless you're crazy. Okay. Why?

Because in February in Chicago, it's cold.

Radical acceptance. Yeah, see, just accept it. Right? If your window is facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to another person. So, I tell people, there's another concept I use, it's something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're important to your core values. So, who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have, or they will not listen to I don't know prejudicial language. True North gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just, they'll go at it. It is exhausting. Nothing good happens, does it? Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romani, so I.

Could live with myself.

To know that I fought for my life. I stood up for what I want. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher. or why were you late to the party? Or why were you rude to my sister? Or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens though? When a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there, there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they They get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, -huh. That's it.

But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests. Can you love a narcissist or is.

It impossible to love a narcissist?

It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. So the, And that's the bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

It depends on what kind of love. Besides loving themselves. What is cold to you, right? You're in short sleeves, I'm in a sweater.

Yeah.

You know, so it's a subjective word. So can a lot of people love narcissists? They do. They're like, I love this person. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it is very repreSentational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are. But we don't know, maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So, you know, again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do, parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. Like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them.

Sure.

Love is much more metaphysical.

Yeah, of course.

Right? So.

What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist then?

That they love themselves.

They don't love themselves?

Oh hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves.

But then they put it on other people.

But did I project it onto other people? You're a horrible, lying, disgusting, Lusting person, you make me sick. -Oh my God. -They're talking about themselves. -Oh my gosh.

-You just want to give them a hug.

-So narcissists are miserable. -They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like.

I want to get revenge on them.

I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them. -They have to live with it. -The universe wins on that one. Like they have to keep being them. It is a very imagine every every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this and how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out together. That's a very difficult way to live.

Their nervous system must be always heightened too.

Kind of. Kind of, yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there. He doesn't feel it, yeah. Yeah, but narcissists really, really It's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

And so, what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have one parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main.

Signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic? I don't think when let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness, dismissiveness, dismissiveness, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college, like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage, rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up. Anger. Anger, but rage like that, walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent and probably dealing with.

An antagonistic, a narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, Why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I haven't learned to... But you didn't jump into a relationship.

I didn't feel that at the beginning.

You didn't feel it at the beginning.

But it was like six to 12.

Months later when I was... You justified.

Then I justified, oh let's just get back to where it was. One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to give it to me. Give it to me. is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic but for falling for narcissists.

Why is that?

A lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps. There was always a way to make it better. You're going to do the Sunday workout. You're going to go to the gym at 4:00 More in the morning.

That's it. Right.

And so the more in you had this belief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk to them harder. I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make more work.

More loving, more present, more giving.

Everything becomes a workout.

Oh my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like it would never felt enough. And it was always draining to give. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There's always something to pick at.

Yep.

And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny 'cause I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve 'cause I'm an athlete, right? I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for.

A guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Now they're narcissists. narcissistic woman. Oh, my gosh. But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become.

Right.

And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work.

And then you just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll support.

I'll do this, and then it It.

Just drains your energy.

Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer.

And it's worked for them, they're screwed. It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil, as my therapist talks about, is like I started to really realize, like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this in one of your recent videos, like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized, like, it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like Commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work. No, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's what it is. Exactly, and I think that that, and.

I have to tell you a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, It's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no. It's not, I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know that this that's hard work, because they sat and watched your.

French film with you.

It's just an uncomfortable moment. I'm just gonna read my book while.

You watch your football game. Yeah, we're good.

Yeah, that's fine. I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients: kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, Respect. Every single one. And as long as you got that-- Flexibility.

Flexibility.

No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So yeah, they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar.

Good luck with that. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship, the person is not a narcissist? Maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is and you have some pts from those experiences and you feel like well, I'm supposed to be walking in eggshells, but I don't need to it's kind of healthy Like is this shoe gonna drop like when you know the person isn't a narcissist How long does that take to find out?

About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually there's red flags right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great, that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work and listen. What's the worst that's gonna happen? We'll get rebooked and they're calm. And like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you.

Like, we'll figure it out.

To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to. But we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport?

Oh, oh no, no, no, no.

What happens? And it just, it's just, I keep-- I'm not gonna call it stress. It's just, it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault, entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with somebody, you watch them. And that doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing. It's the presence. It's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also the growth potential in you. So not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go to this person and you're like, Hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity and the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else and not just narcissists but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling there's going to be a lot of women on the road and you're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams.

Oh my gosh, that's bringing back so.

Many memories to me. That's the key and I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in, I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy, you got a hammer. I love it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? Should we move closer in? Because I see, or you know what could be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you, ask the most amazing questions, You need a podcast. Like it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

That's a good thing.

That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

That's a good thing.

It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, Go be your best you, is secure enough to say, I'm not gonna lose you. Like I see all the good in you.

And that-- and I want the best for you.

And I want the best for you. and I believe in you and I'm here with you and that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die. If you change too much, too fast, there's no stability, you go chaotic, erotic and you dysregulate. So how often it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you the two of you? Do you have kids? Do you have little.