How To SPOT & Deal With Narcissists (1 Out of 5 People Are One!) | Dr. Ramani Durvasula

If you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. This is a disorder of self loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves, but then they put.

It on other people, projected onto other people. So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable.

Miserable.

Today I am joined by one of.

The world's leading experts on narcissism and narcissistic abuse. She hosts the award winning podcast, Navigating Narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Darvasala. So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?

It's not easy. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early. If you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from it. This is dangerous.

But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's unfortunately a one in five. You date five people. What are the odds?

Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible?

The bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

So the.

Welcome back, everyone, to the school of greatness. We have Dr. Ramani in the house. Very excited. Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

You have been doing intensive work on psychology and specifically about narcissism more recently. And really your content has been blowing up online.

Thanks.

You've got an amazing book out called don't know who I am.

Don't you know who I am?

Don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in an era of narcissism, Entitlement and incivility.

Yeah.

And why is narcissism such a big topic, especially right now in our society?

It's interesting. It wasn't for a very long time. I mean, this is. It's fascinating to have been studying something where nobody cared about it. Like, I was like, you were a nerd when I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. And everyone drive was literally back room of a lab and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. I've geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. You know, if anyone ever asked me this is my theory on it is, I think it's interesting. There's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lasch called the Culture of narcissism. And in that book he really gets. And this is the 70s, okay? And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. Like, this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media, you had to witness it all. Yeah, and we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now.

Political dramas and fights and lots of.

And materialism was on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media and reality tv, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self promotion, everything was about validation seeking. Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours. And it was that. It was. I'll never forget the day, actually I was, when I. Someone told me about social media. It was in that space between MySpace and Facebook.

Yeah.

And I had small, small children at the time. And I think I was up late and somebody said, you gotta look at this thing called Facebook. Right? And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so I, at the time, I was even married. So I've really no social life. And I look at it and it's that moment, that penny drop moment, where I could feel that dread in my stomach as though like a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, o God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it, if you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house, right? Like, no one was gonna. You had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men in that era. And then other people, like, would get it by, like, going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something, but it was a different game.

Going to the gym, maybe, maybe going.

To the gym, but now all of it excelling at something vis, like sports or performing or like singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are going to be able to get validation just sitting at home? And I thought, this narcissism thing's going to blow up. That was 2008. When I had that revelation, I started telling people, you know, people said like, oh, Honey, you're just, you're running off in your head. Get some sleep. Like you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no, this is going to blow up. And then it blew up. And at around that time we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows like, you know, Survivor and things like that. I'm like, this is interesting. And then we'd start seeing more and more and more of the attention seeking, reality TV housewife type shows.

A bachelor. A bachelor.

And I thought, oh, no, no, no. And then the political winds changed and the word came into the, into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you study, like barefoot, nobody cared about it.

And then all of a sudden it's mainstream.

It changed and it became mainstream. Exactly. And but another thing that was happening too is this. I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics. And they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say, and they would look frazzled. And I'll say, hey, what's up? And they'll say, some of these patients, they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. And what we came to find out was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good health care to other people. They themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them, so they're not getting good health care. And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients. Over and over again they kept. It's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism because it's clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you, once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced, some were splitting up, some were saying, I'm gonna set boundaries.

Wow.

I mean, it was insta change. And they said we were in couples therapy for five years and always about marriage is hard. You gotta communicate. Like communicating with the narcissist is, I don't know, it's like it's impossible. Screaming into an abyss like there's no point.

Wow. So is there hope for people in marriages if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, to actually heal the relationship and improve it, or is it just going to be hard the rest of.

Your life going on a probability basis? The answer is no. I think it's going to be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic. I mean, we're talking about daily commitment.

On the person who is a narcissist.

Then the person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with, I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice for a long time now have been narcissistic.

Why would they even come to work with you if they're narcissistic?

Because something's going wrong in their lives. Their marriage is blowing up, they're having some sort of public shame, their career isn't going well.

They have to do.

They feel the world is against them. And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy in somebody's wanting to complain, right? Every so often, they're given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair. And then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, we're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand. Because if someone else is telling them to do it, even if someone. Even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change.

Personality doesn't change. Unless you're, like doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable.

Listen, I'm. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served, right?

It's like I put in more reps.

Yes, I put in more reps. So I'm like, now I know I can do this thing right? But it's not that I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am.

When is our personality shaped?

Well, there's two pieces of personality. We're born. The genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament.

Our temperament.

Temperament.

You're born and you're either a crier or not a crier, or you're.

I can make it ultra simple. Like, you know, there's some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments. They're born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent. Kids who are difficult to soothe, to make them stop crying, to help them sleep as time goes on. They're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy fighty. They get to school, they can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them. So these kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down. Stop that. Don't do that. And there's even this vibe these kids get, like, nobody really wants to spend time with them. Right. Because they're real handful.

Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five.

No, you can't. But the difficult temperament's a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk. But it's definitely. When we tell that story backwards, every narcissistic client I've ever worked with, without exception, had a difficult temperament as a child. So that either they. Every so often, I'd get lucky. They. We'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they don't ask the parent, and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real. Because you had siblings. Right. So they'd compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great easy temperament. It's not quite. So temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to them. That's the genetics of it.

Okay. And the other.

All the rest of it is shaped.

By the world environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you're exposed to.

Exactly.

So if you had a. Let's say, a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to, you know, I guess, shift your personality Into a different style with environment.

I think so. I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at. So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy, and you get them intact athletics, or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that, and you really are with them. Instead of saying, you're being so bad, you're so difficult, like, whoa, look at that rocket you built. Or like, oh, my Gosh, you ran 10 miles today, or you threw the ball, or like, this is great, let's do it together. And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've heard of some. This is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus of energy. And then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them. Might go with them or whatever. So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver. They can relax and they have success except experiences. Right. So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really, like, they feel loved no matter what. Whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved. And that they have these other outlets. That's cool. And that the school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number of kids I know who got that lineup right.

I mean, who had, like, all the support and love. We love you no matter what. Yeah, it's very challenging. It's interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed, obviously, and he. He said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in, like, this summer competition league. And he said, my father told me, no matter what, I'm going to love you. Whether you score zero points or you're the highest scorer, I'm going to love you no matter what you do, no matter how good or how bad you are, I love you no matter what. And he said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm gonna go out and go for it no matter what happens. I'M loved is the way he explained it. And I thought that was interesting. But not a lot of people have had, like, the school support and parent support and sleeping support and, like, the encouragement. But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth. Is that right?

So every human being has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting, you know, like, again, a safe space.

Yes.

A safe place of attachment, a sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah. Their behavior could be called out, like, no, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. You know I love you. Whether you get the 13 points or the no points, just grounded.

But I love you.

You're still grounded, you know? I love you. You know, and so that sort of consistency and safety. But it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014, and in this paper they were talking about, how do you basically, how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid? One thing we're seeing a little bit right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing, celebrated for just being. Just celebrated for, like, you're just so great. And it's. You're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great mean something. Right. Great is excelling. So you love a child, you cultivate their strengths. But the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be. They're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over, and you're all that. You're all that. You shouldn't. You're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood and. And the slings and arrows happen, and they are not having it. And that's where you see that on top of everything else, can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child. Just overindulge. And what happens is they're overindulged for their outsides, and you're so special. But their emotional world isn't nourished, so nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. You know, it's a lot of that. And that's a dangerous game to play with.

Would you say, with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy Family, let's say it's. They got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them, you know, discipline. But love and all these things in the way that. The best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist, even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated, or how does it actually happen?

So the problem, if you. If someone had all the fundamentals. Yes, right. The safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, great values. The great values, you know, all of those things. Supportive, educational environment, all of that, you still will have a handful, but you will have dropped a probability from here down to here. Okay, Right. It's a chorus race. Right. You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Narcissism is creating. Adult narcissism is a complex inter blend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood. Narcissism, at the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, you know, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse. Observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers. Right. And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adulthood narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You still have to. Majority people are talking about factors you could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over like, you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards traumatic. I'm sorry, that's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love. Kobe Bryant's father I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now imagine that happening a thousand times, ten thousand times. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you. Whatever. The child learns that all love is conditional, which is really. That's transactional. Basically, all narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. And attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life, it requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One singular. You need that. That person who is there who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe. It's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment, that as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism.

So if you have a severe statisticist, if you don't have an attitude, if.

You have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, then person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me?

Abandoned me for five hours, just in case.

And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with a narcissistic style in adulthood. Yeah.

Can you break down the differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them?

So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles. Okay? Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. Okay. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement. Absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then, what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure. And they are very insecure. Very insecure. And lots of feelings of inadequacy. Okay? So. But that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomachache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like. They're. They. There's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's gonna get blown off, and we're gonna be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism. Oh, my God. Like, if I were to take feedback. Hey. Like, yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt, and you're like, oh, really? And you start coming at me.

I know you got this on yours. What are you talking about? Me criticizing you?

Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a Hedge against a shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system. And it's, it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know as fight or flight or freeze. And that fight, flight, freeze. And there's even a fourth part to it called Fawn, which we could talk about. But that, that autonomic reaction that like, boom, adrenaline got, you know, eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I, I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had $100 bill hanging out their wallet. Never could I ever, like, I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, no, you know, because I have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate wouldn't.

They would not think. They're just nothing, take it, steal it.

And so they have no anxiety, no excitement around it. No excitement, no anxiety. And they're very stress resistant. And that way. That's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, cut those hundred thousand jobs and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell is breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is. But there is a coldness and a callousness.

Interesting.

Because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.

Interesting.

And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure and profit. And mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopath, really.

Yeah.

The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy. The psychopaths don't they're not insecure. They're not insecure. No. I mean, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you.

Get rid of it.

Yeah, exactly. Or they'll calmly have someone say, like, I'll literally look at you. If I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like. And I'd be calm and I'd go. And then I don't know whether that means you kill them, hire them or whatever, but no problem with that, right? And very.

They don't have the emotion. They don't have empathy.

No empathy.

Does narcissists have empathy? You ever walk out of the grocery store or fill up on your tank and just think to yourself, how is everything this expensive? Feels like prices are going up everywhere. But how great would it be if just once, just once, something actually went down in price? It'd be pretty amazing, wouldn't it be? Well, at Metro, that's exactly what's happening. They're lowering their prices and are giving you a five year price guarantee on talk, on text, and on data. One line now 20% lower. Family plans also lowered. Oh, and you also get a free 5G phone, all with no ID required and no activation fees. Stop by your neighborhood Metro store, visit metrobyt-mobile.com or call to find out about their amazing offers.

Narcissists have. We tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call, I like to call it instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is.

They know they use it against you.

They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you, but like, if they want to get you to do something. Oh, man, I heard your mom's sick.

Oh, man.

Oh my gosh. How's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like, it's rough. You know, my mom was sick. She. She was really sick for a while too. I get all that. And then, you know, it's a rapport and then they're getting something from you, right? So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them. That's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what the feel, they know what's right, or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they Got it. But they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something from him. Somebody said his mom's sick. So let me, let me work the mom angle here because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for. So they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you, and someone's the next week when they're fully done with you and say, hey, his mom got sicker and be like, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done. So that's why people say, well, don't tell me they don't have empathy because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings. Odds are they needed something at that point.

So what was the most, the scariest narcissist, what was it called? Or the most dangerous, malignant narcissist? Okay, so can you explain again what that, what that is?

So let's talk about, let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? And the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy. Usually a lack of empathy, okay? Entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they, they come at them, blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what, you know, what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self serving, insecure, deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it. It's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy. So nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well, then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm and then I'm all that, right? But it is actually fascinating to watch that moment, if you could put it in slow mo. When the shame gets activated. I don't know, they don't get the girl or they don't get the guy, or they don't get the job. And the rage, it pops out like, that guy is an idiot.

I feel like I'm so reactive to this. Not in a negative way, but I feel I'm remembering many things, things in my life, in many relationships. I have always wanted to do therapy with people, and in multiple relationships, they were resistant. They never wanted to do it. They said, no, I'll never do therapy. So resistant. Eventually getting into therapy. So it's so funny you saying this, because I feel like, I don't know, just having these flashbacks here, but. And everything you're saying here, it just seems like crazy to me. So I feel like maybe I might have been with some narcissist, maybe I haven't with everyone. But I'm wondering what attracted me to maybe some people that had this when originally I didn't know they had this. It didn't seem like they had these things. It seemed like, you know, they were loving and supportive and kind and generous. But the more you say these things, I'm just like, okay, that's interesting. Just noticing.

So with a narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are our presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also.

Can you have those things and not be narcissists? You can, because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know?

So here, here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. And when you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being.

Someone who is confident and charismatic.

When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I literally, I'm like, all right, everyone. And I. I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look goo goo eyes. Because I'm thinking. And then of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm gonna find what's wrong with it. Every so often, I find it and I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers and I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous up front. It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all Your common sense. And you miss. Yeah. And people. And if you either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it, you just. Well, yeah, you know, well, he's got a big job, or she's really stressed, or she doesn't mean that, or that's just their culture.

Oh, my gosh. You just said that someone I was with was like, well, this is my culture.

No, no.

Unless you're called meaning, this is my culture. I go, no.

And I probably no empathy.

Like, it makes no sense to me.

Like, I've heard that excuse. And I get to say this because I'm from a very different culture. And I'll say, oh, no, I do not know. A culture where meanness is permitted. And to say to that person, if that's your culture, then go with God.

Exactly. Because working at someone and being angry and not regulating your emotions is not a culture.

That's not a culture. And. But yet. But yet. I'm amazed at how often I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, and they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only. It's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean?

Like dismissive interrupting. Dismissive. Like, okay, all right, you're talking, and then I not only cut in, but.

It'S basically like your point of view doesn't matter, or. Yeah, you're an idiot. I guess I know what's really. Yeah, yeah, Interesting. Okay, so you share some of these signs of malignant narcissists.

No, that's. Okay, so let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy. All that stuff I talked about.

Yes, yes.

Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh, my gosh.

Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard. And they're like, I'd be writing notes up there. Because what we have then is the classical narcissist. The sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big, charming, confident, I'm the one. I'm the best. No insight, very little empathy kind of. But very, like big salespersony. That's the grandiose narcissist.

Grandiose. This is someone who says when you meet them on the first day, I love you. Yeah, they're often like, we're gonna be together forever.

Once in a lifetime love story. This is magical, right? Is that.

Oh, man. Flashbacks. For me, Grandiose. Okay.

But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff. Lack of empathy and all that other stuff. But they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can. They can. And what would. That's a horrific combination, because then that person's real charming on the front end. And then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary. And when we see controlling. When we see manipulative narcissists. Manipulative. I'm sorry, Malignant narcissism. We're seeing people who are often. They're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories a lot, especially a lot in the MeToo era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists.

Right. So how do you and Tyler. If we have a whiteboard in there, can you bring in one with a Sharpie or with a erase. Dry erase marker? I think we have a small whiteboard if you find one, or see if Matt has one. So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss. Didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things, but the first six months seemed great, or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out, and we're not feeling good about the relationship that we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship. We've spotted it.

Yep.

What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not gonna happen.

That's a fool.

Therapy so doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band aid and get out, or how does it sound?

That simple. Right? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin? And they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off for my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Survive a Relationship with a Narcissist? And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the band aid. So if you're. And neither path is easy, but. Right. In an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse. And they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact. Like having no contact with them.

Completely blocking, cutting off.

Because it's almost like a toxin. Right. If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate.

If you have a little bit. You're just gonna be feeling a little bit of pain consistently, it's gonna be holding onto it.

Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest. If you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So. And then I tell people I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you and if you can remember you really are keeping it tight, it's a lot of. You're in a deposition. Yes. No. Okay, sounds good. Sure. Now, man, narcissists don't like that because they're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And they. When I tell you when they bait you, they. They don't play. They go for everything, for everything that's.

Going to make something else.

I'm making stuff up Kids, they start making stuff up. They go after your friends, they draw.

Your friends in it, threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?

And so then at some people, people take that bait. And then the narcissist, like, game on, you know? And they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio Boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year. And over 450 studies, they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. There's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fight.

Oh, my gosh.

And they want the fight, so they bait you. You gotta be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage. Crazy to not get into the fight.

Yeah, I won't. I want to speak names here, but in. In a previous relationship, I remember I learned to let go of jealousy in my 20s. When I was in my teens and 20s, I was jealous. And, you know, if my girlfriend or the person I was dating was with other guys, I was just didn't know how to handle it right. I was, you know, afraid. I was like, oh, what's happening? It was just, like, jealous. Then I remember a friend of mine was like, you've got to kill the jealousy monster inside of you. This is not serving you and your relationships. If someone cheats, you're gonna find out about it, and then you move on or whatever. But being jealous about something that's not happening is just making you anxious and worried, and it's hurting you and it's hurting the relationship. So it took me a while, but I Learned in my 30s and in a specific relationship, I was with someone who got a lot of male attention, let's say a lot always. And I was. I never was insecure or jealous about it. I think I was just so confident. I was like, you know, whatever. I mean, this person was getting a lot of attention in public and in line or whatever they did. And I was just like, okay. Like, it never bothered me. And I don't know why. I think maybe it's just because I'm older and I'm into maturity, and I was just. I felt so confident. I was like, okay, if they want to go, someone else go be with them. If I'm not the right fit for you, why would I be jealous and insecure? But it's almost like they always wanted me to react to something and I was like, okay, if you want to be with them, go be with them.

All right?

So, you know, and I never reacted. And they are always trying to be like, oh, this person took my number today. And this person. I was like, okay, well, what do you want?

There's a name for that. And that thing you're talking about is called triangulation.

Triangulation.

Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship. Whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me.

This person DM me or this person.

Exactly.

Hitting on me.

They're always trying to. And they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're. Or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is normal. We are a. Actually we're a pair bonded species. We human beings. We are, we like, we pretty much are about, generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. Said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous with one part of that time. They weren't banging you, they were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay, but we tend to be pair bonded. We tend to be monogamous. All right, so jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person. If somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring. Right? That's all that Darwinian stuff, reproduction. Pathological jealousy, Psychological jealousy, though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and oh my gosh and negative mood states and all that. Like, jealousy doesn't feel good. But it. I always, when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Like, because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and, or worked with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous. When people notice my husband, I kind of feel sad because I'm like, yeah, this thing. This thing's kind of. Kind of done.

I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Yeah, but that's. We're talking about pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner ironically, on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the drive room, like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. And I'm like, huh, he doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking that's. And I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling like I still got a dog in the fight.

But it doesn't mean you're like, letting it stress you out and like talking.

Only because we're talking about.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And so the paranoia, Jealousy is some.

I mean, that's a narcissist thing.

This is where. Yeah, okay. So I remember in this specific relationship, it was like she would make things up. She'd be like, oh, this person is hitting on you. And I was like, no, I don't even know this person is. And then would just be like, used against. And then was like, well, I'm not speaking to you for a couple days because I. You're. You're lying. You must be lying to me. You must not be telling me the truth. I'm like, what? It's just like it kept going on and on. So, yeah, if you want to use this, if you have any examples next time.

We have been.

Yes, I think this will be. This would be cool to show on YouTube. People love this.

Yeah.

Okay, so there's a little bit of jealousy is normal. Means you care. But the. What did you say?

What's the paranoid paranoia? The pathological jealousy.

Pathological jealousy?

Yeah.

That's a narcissistic.

That's more of an. It's more paranoid, it's more antagonistic. It's more about you must be doing something you're doing. So it's accusatory. It's almost delusional.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Just so much is coming up for me. And what would you say again, are the main causes. What are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based? Today's show is brought to you by Apple Watch. Knowing how you sleep is a game changer. When it comes to overall well being. But for many, sleep and sleep quality are a mystery. The new Apple Watch Series 11 provides an easy way to track and better understand the quality of your sleep. The sleep score on Apple Watch helps you better understand your sleep routine and help to make it more restorative. Dive into factors like sleep duration, bedtime consistency, how often you wake up and time spent in each sleep stage. Apple Watch takes you from not knowing to knowing. Find out more@apple.com Apple Watch Series 11 iPhone 11 or later required no, it's partly trauma.

It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment, it's lack of secure attachment, it's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong. And they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's gonna go down. We're about to see cause what Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world. Every moment being documented and shared since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're gonna be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are gonna start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're gonna see what happens if you were. Cause I had kids way before this, so I did not. The only people saw their pictures were people actually friends and family, put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing.

I came over to the house, came.

To the house and looked the actual baby. But this is a, this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents lives. Like look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So is it. Do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's, you know, special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever 10 it's a super interesting area.

There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown or you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as oh no, it's so cute Is it still. They didn't consent. It's a vulnerability. Right. So there's some. I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool.

Yeah.

What happens if not agreeing?

What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these, like, things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me.

But it goes beyond that, because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you in a public way.

And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their employees importance to their parents is their social media Persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for.

Them or for the validation.

For the validation.

For the license engagement.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Man, that's tough. Cause I have friends who never show their kids stuff, and then I have friends who do show their kids. And, man, it's just like, yeah, how do we. How do we navigate that conversation? And how do we.

We're building this airplane in the sky. Oh, man. And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other. Both parents. But also, I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media. Right. Cause what does every child want to. They want their parents love and attention.

Love and attention.

All they want is their parents love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interests, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful. And it doesn't all have to be documented. I've been with a psychologist. I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost. And they're going to what?

Let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. You know, maybe they have a small following. Maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family.

That's kind of a different game.

Or it's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, I'd say not to their friends and family. What would be appropriate that you think psychologically, in a healthy manner to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, I think that not mess them up or, you know.

Being present with your children emotionally being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress, someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finely laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not. It's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not. This is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the park. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need best life our grass mask car.

And I'm like, oh, my God, pay attention. Look here.

Look at them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach and it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self. And what is narcissism? False self?

Narcissism is the false self. Yeah, it's a mask.

It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants, how the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures, they have the same bodies, they're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game. Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity.

It's so interesting because four years ago I wrote a book called the Mask of masculinity, which is about. And I interviewed a lot of psychologists and experts on these kind of personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks for many different years of my life, to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. And one of them being like the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry, I would be like moody. I would be frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better, until I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's, it's not the authentic self.

Correct. And that, I mean that's. Maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self. Because it's such a big conversation when we look at the work of Carl Rogers, the humanistic psychologist and even other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanistic universe, this idea of authenticity and self actualization. So if you're ready to view human growth as a mountain, self actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime I've met five self actualized people and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self actualize when you're younger. And they were deeply authentic. I mean like you, you did feel like you were in this, in the, in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. Like one was a man who was a, he was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.

What did that, what did that feel like? His experience?

It was like absolute serenity. I felt it. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty. Not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was Joy. Like, he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what. And anyone looking at it would be like, there's not a lot happening here. But it was this genuine, authentic, like, please come into my look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was. Same thing, Joy. And that man, that Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man, I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life, and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him. We were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer, and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable. And he was magnificent. And it wasn't just the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right? But he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of, someone has more. I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. What a life. Like, what a gorgeous life.

You mentioned the. The deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage. Don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get, like, your point across? If you need to get it across, you don't. You don't.

You can't. So sometimes I tell people, okay, but do we.

Life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Not with them.

So that we should just rip the bandage. You know what I mean?

Not necessarily. We can't. Right? So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce, family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting with a narcissist, we're going to give the other parent full custody. Not happening. State of California. 50. 50. All right. Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time, and I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the day, and then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no. No one can say, you have to be here. You have to stay here. You have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots.

So how do you. So you just have to have extreme patience.

I feel like it's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance.

This thing sounds exhausting.

Is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago.

Oh, it's miserable.

Are you going to go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt?

No. Unless you're crazy.

Yeah. Okay. Why? Because in February in Chicago, it's cold. Radical acceptance.

Yeah. So you just accept it.

Right. If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to an artist. So I tell people. There's another concept I use is something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument true north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're so. They're important to your core values, so who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language. True north gets activated. And they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just. They'll go at it. It is exhausting.

Nothing good happens.

Nothing good happens. Right. But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Ramani. So I Could live with myself to know that I fought for myself. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or why were you late to the party, or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, it's. You know what happens, though, is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there. There's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, huh, Dead.

But that's. I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests.

Can you actually. Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist?

It's a subjective, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. And that's the bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

It depends.

Besides loving themselves, what is cold to you?

Right? You're in short sleeves, I'm in a sweater, you know, so it's a subjective word. So can a. Lots of people love narcissists? They do. They're like, I love them, this person. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it is very representational. We love what they stand for, we love what we believe they are. But we don't know. Maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do. Parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them.

Sure.

But love is much more metaphysical.

Yeah, of course.

Right.

So what's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist?

That they love themselves.

They don't love themselves.

Oh, hell no. This self loathing, this is a disorder of self loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves, but then they put.

It on other people that project it onto other people.

You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. They're Talking about themselves.

Oh, my gosh.

Sometimes you just want to give them a hug.

See, narcissists are miserable.

They're miserable, miserable, miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people are like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them.

They have to live with it.

The universe wins on that one. Like, they have to keep being them. It is a. Imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that, and they have that. How come I don't have this? And how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them. Wow. That's a very difficult way to live.

Their nervous system must be always heightened, too.

Kind of. Kind of, yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there, obviously.

Who doesn't feel it. Yeah.

Yeah. But narcissists, really, really. It's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like. They always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

And so what are the signs then? If you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see, like, oh, maybe they might have one parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic?

I don't think, let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're middle school or high school. Selfishness. Inattentiveness. Real inattentiveness.

Dismissiveness.

Dismissiveness. Devaluation of their emotions. Shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean? You don't want to go to Harvard or, like, ugh, you want to go to that college? Like, any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior.

Wow.

Rage. Rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought.

Anger.

Anger. But rage. Like that. Walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent, probably dealing with an antagonistic. Like a narcissistic parent.

Yeah. I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life. And then things Started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet, or I hadn't learned to.

But you didn't jump into a relationship.

I didn't feel that at the beginning.

You didn't feel it at the beginning.

But it was like six to 12 months later. When I was younger, then I justified. Oh, let's just get back to where I was.

One of the great. I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships. Give it to me. Is your history as an ass. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. Why is that? And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps.

Yes.

There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna do the Sunday workout. You're gonna go to the gym at.

4 in the morning.

Right. And so the more in, you had this relief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just got to talk to them harder. I'm going to be more clear.

I'm going to more loving, more present, more giving.

Everything becomes a workout.

Oh, my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years in every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it would never felt enough, and it was always draining. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at, and they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my. Like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve. Because I'm an athlete, and I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted you. I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them, not a narcissistic woman. Oh, my gosh.

But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become. Right. And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away.

No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just. It drains your energy.

Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer. And it's worked for them. They're screwed.

It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist talks about is like, I started to really realize, like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this one of your recent videos. Like, the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized, like, it shouldn't feel like. It should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work.

No, it wouldn't.

Otherwise, I'd rather be single, if that's what it is.

It's like, exactly. And I think that that. And I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy, where therapists say to them, it's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know. That's hard work. Because they sat with and watch your French film with you.

It's just an uncomfortable moment.

I'm just gonna read my book while.

You watch your football game.

I guess we're good.

Yeah, it's fine. I can show up for a few hours.

That's not hard work. Hard. You know, and the other person's kind. Right again. And every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect. Every single one. And as long as you got that flexibility, flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work so they're always going to be hard work. Because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that.

Oh, my gosh. It's just bringing me back to so much, so many realizations. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist? Like, maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is, and you have some PTs from those experiences and you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is the shoe gonna drop? Like, when you know the person isn't a narcissist. How long does that take to find out? This episode is brought to you by Facebook. Finding the perfect secret Santa gift can be stressful. You want it to feel personal and unexpected, but not random. That's where Facebook comes in. Facebook is all about turning small moments into real, meaningful connections. Just like giving the perfect gift, it brings people together in thoughtful ways, helping us show we truly see and appreciate the people around us, whether they're co workers, friends, or family. And you can check someone's profile to see what they're into. Explore marketplace for unique gifts or join groups to swap creative ideas and inspiration. Facebook connects you with people who are into the same things as you and helps you find something that truly fits. Making the perfect find feel more special and personal. And I've actually seen this firsthand with my own community. We have a Facebook group for everyone who's ever attended my summit of greatness event. And it's incredible to see how people stay connected long after the event is over. They share updates, support each other's goals, and celebrate wins big and small. And it's a reminder that when people stay connected, great things keep happening. Let's reconnect this holiday season. Explore more with Facebook today.

About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists. Actually, there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person. Watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great. That's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work. And listen, what's the worst is gonna happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out.

To make the most of the.

Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to, but we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport. Oh, oh, no, no, no, no. What happened? And it just. It's just not gonna curse, right? But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Like that kind. That's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the. With somebody, you watch them. And that doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing, it's the presence, it's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you so not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, and not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away. And you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road, and you're like, oh, my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams.

Oh, my gosh. Bringing back so many memories.

To me, that's. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something. And I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy. You can handle it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon, and it's a big relationship theory.

Is there a graph for this? I was going to say, I want to use the chart.

I'm trying the sustained job.

At some point, I want to use this.

So the Michelangelo phenomenon is this idea that the one person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to. Should we. Like, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? Should we move closer in? Because I see. Or you know what can be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business or a partner of yours? Might have said, you ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. It's seeing that something bigger in the.

Person that's a good thing.

That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

That's a good thing.

It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that. Because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, go be your best you is secure enough to say, I'm not going to lose you. Like, I see all the good in you and that, and I want the.

Best for you, and I want the.

Best for you, and I believe in you, and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice things like, you know, I know that you're going to have to go take this course for six months, and I may not see you, and that's okay, because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. Never.

What's the opposite of it?

Narcissistic relationship.

Because I. Man, I think I've. I'm just having so many realizations here. But I. In the previous, I would say, 10 years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing specific people because I was always like, I always saw the masterpiece. I said, you're a masterpiece, and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts. But there was, like, some insecurities with some of them, not all of them. And they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them. It was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking, what they don't have, and wanting to put their attention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become. To make the USA national team was a dream of mine. To go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball, which is a big sport in Europe, not that big in usa. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple years of a journey. This was 10 years ago. And I remember I showed her, my girlfriend at the time. I go, I just got called up on the national Team. And I'm, like, getting kind of emotional, just chills now, back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into God I wish I was doing what I wanted to do and I wish I was this. And I was just like, like bingo right there. Just okay, well, yeah, let me come back and help you. I kind of put my attention back on, like, you know, you're going to get these things going and you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing. I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness. And a relationship at a time made it all about them at the event that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what? Let me pause on my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece. But it's like, I don't know, I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me.

Right? Yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that, that ego. And it's interesting, not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low grade insecurity that so many people are placed plagued by. Right. Insecurity doesn't mean narcissism. Right insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there. Then again, it's talking about self actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you.

You. Because it's just draining.

Yeah.

If it's just one person. Right.

It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.

Yeah, man, this is crazy. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding. The person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you. And she's happy for you, she's happy for me.

It has to be a two way street.

She's like, you're crazy. She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful.

It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key, though, because that ability to sort of co. Again, to have that co Located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. In essence, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day, and you're both sculpting that for the other.

Oh, my gosh, it's beautiful.

But that's. Again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like, everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. They can. So they can be the only great one in a relationship. Really?

Yeah. So is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

I actually love when that happens because it kind of gets a lot of water supply for everybody else. Oh, my God.

They're like, perfect for each other.

Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing, like this kind of. They're all about the. They're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship. One partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It all looks good together.

Compliment each other.

Ish. Compliment's a strong word the first time. This one, though, might look someplace else. Because this one's a narcissist person. This person, the powerful one, it's narcissistic. May notice someone else. This person's gonna blow up because they're doing their beautiful thing full time. And they're like, how can someone be.

More beautiful if you're not looking at me? Obsessive then. And that gives me all the attention.

Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, Lots of me me. Lots of egocentricity. Lots of. On social media, it's like, I'm so blessed. Hashtag lovemyperson. Hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that. Cause I'm like, ooh, yeah, there we go. You know, another narcissistic, super narcissistic. Relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship, but it's very superficial, very volatile. No empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional. That that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's AR as long as none of them have kids, because that's a real mess around the kids.

You're a messed.

Yeah.

You're traumatized.

It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up, either they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good. It's not a good look.

I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed.

Yeah.

How many. What's the percentage. How many. What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even?

Okay, so here's where it gets interesting. So let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the word narcissistic or the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it, because it's a mistake to use that languaging. And I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder, okay. And P. D. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship, or I've got this boss, and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down, sister. Okay. Because narcissistic personality disorder, like, all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me. I'll be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with with a disorder.

Because you could have narcissistic personality traits.

Correct.

Different than a disorder.

And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to experience.

It could be like, more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits. As opposed to.

It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis and the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, the dsm, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves. Like, we call it subjective distress. So, like, depressed people are like. They're like. Like I'm miserable. I can't. I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of. Right. It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around with what's wrong with it? I'm the one. I'm the guy. I'm. I'm, you know, I'm the best. Look how great I am.

I got money, I've got success, I've got the girl. Whatever it is, it's working.

So everything's working for them. So that's growth. Objective discussion. Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work, and then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around on the street, they're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece, like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives. Oh, yeah. We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social. We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Make sense?

Yeah.

It has to be in the. It has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a dui. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's. Okay, so now let's go to the numbers. Because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a mental illness, a given disorder. Gotcha. So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%. Okay.

That's people who are diagnosed with this.

Diagnosed with this. Okay. So they've gone into research. Study.

Most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. And so what do you.

The million dollar question, how many do you Think this is my number. This is the Dr. Ramani number. Okay. I'm going with 20 to 25%.

Oh, of the world or of like us or the world?

World. One in five to one in four.

You think it's nuts?

One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids. Okay, so 18 and above, 20%. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you, in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of New York, especially New York, Louisiana, Louisiana, being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the. It's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25% here. So that's one in five. So, buddy, if you know five people, one of them's narcissistic.

When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess? The real qualities?

It's empathy, empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people. Emotional regulation. Managing this is more of the emotional regulation like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment. Genuine curiosity about others. Setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are. Having a. Having a solid sense of values, a conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.

It's nice to be around those two people.

Oh, they're so good. And I, I'm. I feel blessed. I have, I have a fair number of those in my life, but I'm very careful. Like, I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like, I don't. I. And I've made them. As recently as this year, I've let more than a few in. So it happens.

You let narcissistic friends in.

Yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's. It's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people. What the. And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.

Oh, my gosh. So many memories. Yeah. This is for a whole Another conversation off camera about why I think I attracted some of these things. This is fascinating. So even you. You attracted people in your life?

100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are.

I'm ways away.

My. My personal vulnerabilities are things like a. I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough, really. I. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say, maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I am closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, that. If that's. If that's the price of poker, I'm good. Like, I don't. I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boil it down to one simple thing, is that I feel like I'm not good enough. Because I feel like I'm not good enough. I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates. And. And now that I went in, anyone in? Unfortunately, yeah. That's kind of the downstream effect.

Or. I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself.

It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic. Ish. Authentic adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough kind of thing. Really. Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work in my own therapy on that consistently. And. But it's a. I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's great. It's interesting. I've got. My staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. What's so remarkable about it? They actually act like guard dogs. That's great. They're like, we feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. Like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're. I mean, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women.

Yeah. So what's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't. So that when we see someone coming in we just say, nah, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life.

So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy? Right. Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life. You know, we're. And that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's.

Who said this?

Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth, Dr. Ramany says, and many others, I do believe, say we're energy. Like, who judges energy? It's like judging the sun, I guess we do. Like, we wear sunscreen.

You're right. Right, right.

But you know what I mean? Like, it's a. These conditions of worth. Like, whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough that. Those conditions of worth. If I'm. I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. Wow. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable, all of us. Not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive. It's not. Or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of, you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that. And those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like, as a kid, many kids were. They almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of. Well, I'm not. They're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough.

And I get attention when I excel in something that they like. And so let me do more of that to get more attention.

Exactly.

And if I lose at that, then they're not gonna love me.

That's exactly right. So it all becomes like. People think, like, if I do these things, then I can be loved, rather than, you're just lovable. And so that's where most people lose the plot and I think the other piece. Those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change. Or some. I just got to get to know them better. Or they don't really mean that. We enable it. We justify it. But if people really got to learn, like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw. Not okay. That. That. That entitled behavior. Not okay. I. And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this. They're behaving like this.

So how do you create boundaries with the narcissist?

It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people. The. The key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get interest, disinterested, and they walk away. Right. You're not an easy mark anymore. Right. So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from them. This is dangerous.

But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

Yeah, but I'm like. I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater all out. So it's a. Because charming, charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility.

There you go.

If you have the humility back, that's the unicorn.

That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're.

And they're humble. Humble. And they're all. They're all that. They're incredible. And they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. There's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or you can see how they're talking to other people. They're interested in other people. They're not talking down to people, maybe because. Because let's say they're in a service position that evening, right? That they're not. And not in a smarmy. Like, the server's my best friend, but, like, they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get. Or whatever. And they're just really. They're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status Conscious, that kind of humility, you know, that they don't brag, you know that they're all that. And they're not going on about how all that, that they are, that's cool. They're not talking about, oh, tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my. No, they're just, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self actualized to not, to not drink the Kool Aid.

Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us?

I think that that one in five.

Of your friends is a narcissist.

So I mean again, if we're using this number of 20. Okay. Which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just inter. I mean it's, it's a spitball number and it's just sort of boiled. Boiled up in this world. And it may be urban myth. I don't know. It's, it's hard to get good data on this. Right. You know, it's, it's. The assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology. Because who's going to be honest about it? Right. There's all these backdoors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things. Let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Tell me, because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focused on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this?

Is there a sense of PTS that you're going to face?

A lot of pts. You'll see it's a. There's confusion, self doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore. Sort of sense of like, I can't be bothered with life. Rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well, no, because that part wasn't really.

Wasn't real. It was like this explosive of.

It's. People have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They, they might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved like self care behaviors we call them like things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time they just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being you know overwhelmed by them so people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships because.

Then they'll start beating themselves up how could I stay in this what was I thinking an idiot you know worst.

Part it's the self blame and the self shame because the self blame is this is my fault I'm the one who stayed I should have known and then I'm a fool and then a lot of people go back right so here why because they think let's talk a little bit I want my whiteboard.

Yes I gotta use it we get.

To use the whiteboard so here we go so let's talk about.