If You Want To BUILD DESIRE In A Long-Term Relationship, WATCH THIS! | Esther Perel

We are not by nature biologically evolutionary monogamous. It's a practice, it's a choice. The good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history, but there are very few.

Because... What are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer end? What are the ones that What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?

So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?

A thriving one.

Yeah. What can go wrong?

Uh-huh.

And how do you fix it?

Okay.

So you started with the middle question.

What goes wrong?

Yes. I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the kind of cornerstones of the demise, okay? And I'm not gonna list them in order, but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important. I'm not talking about big violence, microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.

You don't care, you've lost interest.

But it's more than losing of interest. It's also when you are doing different, you degrade the the other person, they're less important to you, they don't matter. And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone, you care about me, you want my well-being, you're proud of me, you want good for me, you're benevolent, all of that. When you are indifferent, that whole thing goes. And then you start to, that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect, that. The second one is neglect. Neglect when people just basically take each other for granted. You know, they take more care of their car than of their partner. Their dog or their dog, anybody, anything, their yard, anything, anything gets attendance.

Their business.

Their business for sure. Their business for sure. You know, everything gets priority, everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to, 360s, you name it, you know, new input. My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating. And then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tied the knot. It's like now they don't have to do squat anymore. And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own.

Right.

Like a cactus.

Right.

Violence. Violence. The abuse, the level of. Of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship operates. Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it. Because it's family. And family is this kind of thing that doesn't dissolve so easily. So you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal. that is phenomenal. So that kind of violence, I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big things.

You're talking about aggression or resentment or... All of that. Yeah.

All of that, you know.

Passive aggressiveness, all those things.

Yeah. All of that. And then contempt, I think, is the top one. Contempt is the killer of them all. Because in the contempt, there is a real, there's the degradation of the relationship. that complete this, you're nothing. You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up, you know, who do you think you are? And that's it, you're done, you're done.

So how do we even get to this place of these places?

After having been so in love and so romantic, right?

Is desire reflect that, or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories. Or does that not play into a...

Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this. No, you're the only one and now we go back in history. And I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really... It is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking, all these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home.

We also learned jealousy and... Possessiveness, vengeance, you name them.

The beauty and the not beauty.

Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the.

Love, we saw the, you know... We saw the coldness, the lack of intimacy. The intimacy, yes. And we bring that with us, and we often promise ourselves, I'll never be that one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this. And we find ourselves often much closer to the apple.

And then resenting ourselves. To the tree. We resent ourselves.

We're like, how do we do that? Why did we get to this place? And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner. That's just one of the ways. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit.

Right, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play in all this and desire?

So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably One of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time for most of history and in still the majority of the world, sex is for procreation, sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman, nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it and men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere. In a very short amount of time, we're talking 60 years, we have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death in pregnancy and in childbirth, sorry, all of that. And for the first time sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.

In 60 years.

In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power, the gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stopped having sex with others. Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to them. Okay? All of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter. Commitment, because I'm attracted to you. Because you give me butterflies in my stomach. And the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in wanting only desire. I feel like it. I want to. Not I have to, not we want many kids after two kids. The only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it.

It's pleasurable.

It's pleasurable, we connect, it feels good, it deepens our relationship.

It deepens our relationship.

The whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other. Because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home.

Right, exactly.

So this is an amazing revolution.

Sex that is confusing all of us.

And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful and we live twice as long. Go figure.

Right, exactly. For 60 years you're going to be with them or whatever it is.

It's an amazing ideal.

So how do we Navigate this. If we're gonna choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?

I think the focus Both men and women. Yes.

Because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and, you know, vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?

Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.

Wow. Is this a factor?

That's research. That's not just fact. That is men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested. And maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire post-marriage.

Really? Wow.

And it's always been translated as, well, that's because women care less about sex rather than It's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn-on for the woman, often disappears in the long-term relationship. It's like when people look at each other at the end of the day, and you want to fool around, You want to do it? You're up for it tonight? Now, this is really not, this is not very much of a turn on for most women. And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing. Which for her is not the real thing. The whole real thing is everything else. So it's essentially the game.

Yes. It's creating a game. Seduction. It's a plot.

It's a coming close. It's a tease.

Mystery.

It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me, and then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of pacing, and it is an essential, playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets, but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex. Rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are, but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security in their lives.

Safety, security, family, someone to protect, be there, right?

So what people do, look, this is, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay, that's the grand ideal. Okay? I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it. As if it's a... Right? And no Victoria's Secret is gonna solve that. Yeah. Right? So then there becomes, what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this: I turn myself off when, I turn myself off by, not you turn me off when and what turns me off is. You're gonna hear I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel thriving, when I'm not alive. You will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, I turn myself on when or by, I awaken my desires. Not you turn me on when and what turns me on is, which is, i.e., you're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music. It's stuff that gives me pleasure. that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul. Not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds. It's, I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, i.e., they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down on me and sad.

They're not needy. They don't need me because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti-aphrodisiac.

So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?

You calibrate it.

So sometimes you're...

It's the same as when you walk. You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our own rules, we can stay home and not go to work at eight o'clock.

Right.

And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. We are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens. It's that. It's very small. I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all that, I see who is here with their partner. Because you can see them, they're engaged, they're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch when you actually have energy. You know, and in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer. It's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it and you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache? And just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just gonna happen. Because whatever is gonna just happen already has. So you're gonna make it happen. Because you say, We matter. We're important. Let's do this. Let's spend. It doesn't mean if you're gonna make love or have sex, it just means we're gonna take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment. But just you and I to be together, to check in, and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen, probably will, doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love, right? The citizen, the commitment, the care taking, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too.

Exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk taking, right? Exactly, yeah.

There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front, is that I bring something else to you differently. from differently from the way I typically present myself.

Sure.

You know, how can I do this? What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me, right? Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us. Right? And you check every time, you know, how often do you just go on the tried and trodden, as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough.

Right.

So, why does it mean it works generally?

Right. What about the people listening who are saying, Man, that sounds like a lot of work. That every day you have to change to do something different and unique and.

Be... Not every day. Not every day. Not every day, but what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. You know, is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up? It's small, it's really small. Here's the thing. There is work and then there is the creative work. you know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you. You feel. You feel taller. You just feel like you're engaged. You feel awake rather than this. This is the other seated position. It's comfortable, it's great, but nothing happens here. Sure. This. This is alert. Here is the essential word is curiosity. When you're curious, you lean forward and you watch, you're open to the mysteries of life. This is, please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share, you know. And this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much work, I basically say, look, you If I was to say this in your business, would you say this is too much work?

Right.

Or you would say, that's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees.

Exactly.

It's like, Excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that. Never. You have a reward system. You have incentives.

Bonuses.

You have bonuses. But there is no incentivized system in the private domain. So people just think, why bother? And that's the difference, is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentive system.

What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or are effective for long-term relationships?

I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you: please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop Thanking their partners. Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts. Thank you for, you know, making you feel appreciated. Yes, appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude, acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life. Not, did you do this? Did you call? Did you pick up? Do this, you know, half the time.

Expectations.

Expectations. Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. But the expectation comes the fear of it's not gonna... Tank person, first of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat. You're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable. And with the divorce rate that we.

Have... What's the rate at right now?

About 50 on first and 65 on second.

65 and second, wow.

It's not good. It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's just, it's like, okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or the idea is that we can do better. We can do better in general. I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. No, but he's gonna write, you know, you worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week, and, you know, no, they're gonna say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game. He was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma, not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded. Go an extra thing on occasion. Just do something for the other person just because it matters to them even if you couldn't care less. Rather than, I don't, it's not important to me. I don't need this or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge. Because admiration is also that you can really see the otherness of the other person. Don't try to make you partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster.

We used to have a village of people to do that, and now we just expect one person to be the village, right?

Yes, yes, yes, one person for the whole village. That is a unique, it is. And then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate. And that's the more important. Like, I can't talk to you. You're not supportive of me. You're not excited for me. Excuse me, find other people.

-Right. -I can't be everything for you.

-No.

-Relationships seem to be some of the hardest things for people to figure out. I have my friend Matthew Hussey who helps women find men. And every girl that seems to be that I know is always like, Louis, can you help me find a good man? It seems like women are just trying to find the right partner, find great relationship partners. And then when you're in a relationship, it seems to be like people are always struggling in relationships, whether it be intimate or work related relationships, business partnerships. Why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most to feel alive, to feel happy and feel.

This is the million dollar question, you know. I'm a relationship therapist for 35 plus years. I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co-founder, colleagues, co-workers. So love and work, the two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And if I could just say, why is the simple feeling of loving or caring Not enough. Because the entire human drama is really complex. The same way as nature is complex, so is human nature complex. And I spent my whole career studying what is changing in relationships. Are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today? Have our expectations changed?

And.

That I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so, why, you know. But I do know.

Is it more complicated now, relationships than 50 or 100 years ago?

Yes, absolutely. Why is that? Why, for a very simple reason. For a long time we live, and we still in many parts of the world, live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules.