If You Want To DESTROY LAZINESS & Master Your Life, WATCH THIS! | Dean Karnazes

What's the longest you ran nonstop?

350 miles.

350 miles without sleeping?

Yeah, in 81 hours.

How does your body keep going after the first night?

I just focus on the here and now, and I just tell myself, this.

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I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes. How many miles total do you feel like you've run? in your life, do you know?

You know, back a napkin, probably 100,000, maybe a little more than 100,000.

100,000 miles.

Yeah.

What is that if you could go around the earth how many times? I don't know, do you even know what that is?

Yeah, it's a little over four.

Four times around the earth running. That's incredible.

And you've been doing it for how long now?

You know, I started when I was five. But I got into hardcore ultra marathoning 30 years ago. So coming up on three decades.

Three decades consistently. When you were 30, you got into it, right? When your 30th birthday, you ran 30.

Miles, is that right? Yeah, I walked out of a bar in San Francisco drunk on my 30th birthday. And I was drinking with my buddies. I was doing what you do on your 30th birthday. And at midnight I told them I'm leaving. They said, let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate right now instead. And they looked at me and they said, but you're not a runner. You know, you're drunk. And I said, I am, but I'm still gonna do it.

Wow.

And I walked out of the bar. I'll never forget, I didn't own running gear, but I had on these silk boxer shorts, like these silk underwear. So I peeled off my pants and just threw them down the alleyway and started stumbling south, knowing that Half Moon Bay was 30 miles away.

And I thought, just run to Half Moon Bay. 30 miles one direction.

Yeah.

And how did you get back? Well, you know, I sobered up about 10 miles down the road. What the hell am I doing? This is not a good idea. But something just felt right. It was the most spiritual moment I've ever had. It was as though I felt like I was supposed to be where I was doing what I was doing at that moment in time. It's like God said, you're doing what you put on earth to do. Just keep going.

What was your vision 15 years prior to that? Within those 15 years where you weren't running?

Yeah, I went to college, I went to graduate school, then I went and got a business degree and MBA, and I thought if I had a great job, you know, and a fat paycheck and stock options, this company car, I'm living in San Francisco, I'm a yuppie, if you remember that term. I thought I'd be just so happy, so fulfilled, and I was just hollow inside. Really? Oh, it was empty. I just, I hated being a business guy. Like, it just didn't, it wasn't part of my composition. It was just so foreign to me. I didn't like doing deals. And I was doing a lot of deals, making a lot of cash, and just was miserable. And I think that night it just came to a head like I --It.

Was a reflection moment. It was her birthday. It was a decade birthday. You were like, do I really want to do this?

Where do I-- yeah, this woman starts hitting on me that I knew. There was friends with my wife as well. You know, I married my high school sweetheart. I've never had an affair or anything like that. And she starts hitting on me and I'm like, you know, I'm married and she's like, so am I. She shows me a ring and then she keeps hitting on me. Oh man. And I'm like, I could see the writing on the wall, like, where's my life gonna go? Am I gonna wake up at 50, you know, with my third wife bald, driving a really nice Ferrari or something, or am I gonna just follow my heart and, like, do what I really love? Wow.

Yeah.

But you used to run when you were growing up, right? Didn't you run in high school, too, some?

Yeah, I was, I was a good runner. I ran as a freshman on the high school cross-country team in San Clemente. So just close by. BeasTtown by nearby. We won the league championships, and I thought, that's as far as I'm ever.

Gonna take my running, you know?

Yeah.

I'm like, I'm over it. So you didn't want to go to college and run or?

No, I didn't harbor any desires. I like cross country. It was kind of a rag tag group of guys.

We were like Skinny hippies and yeah.

Yeah, yeah, hippies is what we were. And the track guys, there was this track guys that were running around the track and they were lanky and had really thin shoulders. We were surfers, a bunch of just grungy guys. We didn't know what the hell we were. We were running on trails. No one knew what that was about. and my cross-country coach, Benner Cummings, was like this sage. I remember at the finals, the league finals, I was cramping up and I said, Benner, what do I do? My legs, I'm not sure what's going on. I'm tightening up. He's like, don't run with your legs. Run with your heart. And I'm like, wow, okay, I'll run with my heart. And the track guys were all about, all right, they're yelling and banging on their clipboards. I'm like, I want to run with my heart. I just want to go run on a trail somewhere. and just thought, I don't need it.

How do you switch from when you're in pain with a cramp in your side or a cramp in your legs, from shifting your mindset to feeling that pain to transitioning it into running into your heart?

Yeah, you learn to embrace the pain instead of running from it and to celebrate the pain and to value it as an emotion. you want to experience the full range of human emotions, the joyous joys, the super highs, the runner's high, and just the devastating lows when you're in so much pain you don't feel like you can take another step.

How do you overcome it if it feels crippling to you so that it doesn't stop you?

You know, there are levels of pain and levels of where I go when I'm confronting pain. And, you know, some of these runs I've done, I've run hundreds of miles nonstop through multiple nights without sleep. And when the pain gets so intense, you just want it to stop. When you're struggling, you want it to go away. And you start thinking about where's the next aid station, where's the next fuel stop. I mean, you just ran a marathon. You're at a point, you're counting. There's mile 13, we're at mile 14. I'm looking for mile 20. We're at mile 20. Everything. So I just turn, I just put on the blinders to the future. Anything in the future is irrelevant and I don't reflect on the past. I just focus on the here and now and I just tell myself, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Okay, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Don't think about when the next ADHD is coming. Don't think about the finish line. Don't think about anything except your next footstep. And so it's almost zen like. It's like you're almost in a trance where you're just saying next footstep. next footstep. And I'll do that sometimes for five or six hours, where that's all I do.

Where you're in pain though.

You don't feel anything. You go someplace else and you just say, take your next footstep. And it takes some discipline because your mind wanders. I mean, our minds are so active. We're always thinking about this or that and I don't let that happen. I always bring myself back to my next footstep. Yeah.

Is there a period of time where you're like, okay, Let's say you're experiencing pain in your legs or your lungs for a half an hour and then you get into this trance, you get in this state. Does it eventually the pain just goes away where you feel nothing or you're just so present you're in a runner's high or what happens? How do you transition that pain?

I think by being in the present, the here and now, and taking your focus away from the pain just to your next footstep, it just kind of It amorphosizes. It just kind of goes into the ether.

You transcend it.

You transcend it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's almost like a numbness. You don't feel necessarily good. You don't feel necessarily bad. You just are there. You're just a presence.

Yeah. So what would you say you were on a scale of one to 10 on your 30th birthday before you started that run in terms of self-confidence and self-love? Being 10 being at the highest, one being at the lowest. Where were you that day? before the run?

I was confused. Yeah, I didn't feel a sense of purpose. There was no meaning in my life. I think I was maybe depressed. I mean, now that we understand a lot more about depression, I think that there was an emptiness, a hollowness that just was with me all the time. I couldn't necessarily pinpoint it. You know, I thought I was supposed to be happy. You know, I had a great house, you know, a great car. these things were supposed to bring me happiness. And I think I was so comfortable, I was miserable. So, you know, my self-esteem was not very high. I mean, it was a turbulent time. So were you not running or working out at all?

Were you doing like a couple miles here and there? Were you lifting? Were you doing just kind of hanging out? What were you doing? Yeah, I got into windsurfing.

So I was windsurfing, you know, and I was living in San Francisco. Good wind. Yeah, good wind up there. So I was windsurfing. I wasn't a slacker. But I had a little punch, you know. I wasn't in no cardiovascular health whatsoever. I remember walking upstairs and I'd get winded.

Yeah.

So you were comfortable, you were making money, you had the physical things on the outside of what the world was looking for, but you felt like you had no meaning, no real desire and no purpose. Is that right?

Yeah. I mean, my life was rudderless. Like, you know, where is this all leading to?

Just kind of wandering. Do you think it's possible for us to be fulfilled without a purpose?

If you're highly enlightened, I think so. If you're a monk, yeah.

Unless that's your purpose maybe, yeah.

That's a good point. Yeah, maybe that is your purpose.

Do you think if someone's doing activities in life that doesn't align with their unique talents and their unique desires or their unique vision of life of who they want to be, can they be truly fulfilled?

I don't think so. No, I don't. I think that everyone has a desire to be something. And I always tell people like when they say to me, I don't know what I want to do, what I want to be, I just say, just take out a pen and script your perfect life. Just say, tomorrow morning when I wake up, I can be and do anything I want. Just write down free form. Where would I be living? You know, what would I be doing? You know, get very granular. What kind of car would I be driving? What would make me like what would I really love to do if I didn't have to go to work tomorrow and I could just do whatever I wanted and you know like I did this with my son. He's like oh yeah, I'll be at a Tahiti at a beach drinking a Mai Tai and then he thought about.

It and he's like after a month it gets boring.

Yeah, he kind of thought about that. He's like, you know, I want to be a sportscaster like I really love sports and it's like I that's kind of what I want to do. I'm like And why are you selling commercial real estate? But until you have that kind of blueprint, if you don't know where you're going, you're never gonna get there. So at least you have some idea of like, my perfect life would look like this. And you have some idea of the direction you wanna move.

So from 30 to 40, you took on a lot of ultra-marathon running, right? In the first decade, would you say? Was that where you did a lot of it?

Yeah, it's been, I keep thinking, you know, I'm gonna age out of this. I mean, I just ran 100 miler in Patagonia a couple weeks ago. So it's, yeah, it's still going.

The first decade of doing this though, what would you say was the number one thing you learned about yourself from 30 to 40 doing the ultras?

That I was better than I thought I was, and I could go further than I thought I could. I think that running teaches you that your limitations are all up here. Because if someone had said to me, hey, you're gonna go run 100 miles, I would say, what? Over how many weeks? Or where are the hotels you sleep in along the way? And you prove to yourself that, wow, I did it. I did something that I thought was impossible. And for a lot of people, it's a marathon. People hear, I say to them, you should run a marathon. It's other people that run a marathon. It's never me. I'm like, that's why you should run a marathon.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I did it. I was, I just turned 39. I remember thinking to myself, it'd be good to do one before I'm 40, right? Just to say I've done it. Cause I've never won, I've had no desire to do a marathon. I've always been a sprinter like we were talking about before. Played football, basketball, all that stuff. And three miles was a lot. I would do it as a workout, but I didn't enjoy it.

Yeah.

I was like, why am I gonna push myself for 26? You know, it seemed like just not fun or enjoyable.

Yeah.

And then I switched it. I watched the LA Marathon a couple of years ago and I was just so inspired by all the body types, all the age ranges.

Yeah.

And people going at every pace, you know, I was like, okay, I don't have to win this thing. I can just enjoy it my first time and see how it is.

Yeah.

And see what I learned in that accomplishment of whatever the five or six hours.

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It was a powerful lesson to see, you know, how far I could push myself. And I think the challenge is when I would run or try to do longer miles, five or eight miles, which is not long, that's a walk for you. That's a warm up for you. But when I was trying to do those five or eight milers before, I didn't have a strategy. And so I would kind of burn out quickly. I would run it like it was a sprint, get tired, need to walk and think, how am I going to do this marathon thing?

Yeah.

And it wasn't until I created a game plan of saying, I don't need to win, I'm just going to take it at my pace and complete this and have a game plan. It would have became more enjoyable in the process. And I think for anyone who hasn't done any distances, creating the game plan first and making it more enjoyable, not about the suffering or the pain. And the pain definitely came, but I had a game plan on how to manage it and that allowed me to get through it. So that's what worked for me at least.

Did you have a time goal or just to just break six hours?

I wanted to break six hours, which again, it's very, it's like you can walk a marathon and do that. But I, for a big guy, you know, 6'4 240. I was like, my goal was to not get injured. That was the main goal. I was like, I want to be able to walk the next day because I had done 29-0-2-9 where I kind of tweaked my hip because I pushed it too hard the first time. Then the second time I was fine. I did it. I was like, I want to be able to walk and be able to work out within a day or two. And I want to be able to finish it within six hours. And I don't want to be in extreme pain where I'm pushing, because I know my mind will push through an injury and I'll hurt myself. If I'm committed to it, I'll finish it. But it's like, I don't want to be injured and regretting it. So it's kind of like, let me just get through this and enjoy it. I also said I want to smile on every mile. so I'm gonna smile every mile. And literally, I was just like so happy to be there. I was like just smiling at people, high-fiving people, I was engaging with the moment. I can remember at 8, 10 miles, I was like, oh, this is fun. You know, I brought joy to the experience, not this scary suffering, you know, thought that I had had for so long. And I think that allowed me to get through it a lot easier.

Yeah, it's, you know, for you to run a marathon is tough because just your size. I mean, you know, The more weight you carry, the bigger you are, the tougher it is. And I mean, I really admire that you stuck to it. And you're going to do New York now? I'm doing New York.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe I'll try to get, if I could break 530, I think that'll be a win.

You know, it'll be a huge win.

New York's tough. Yeah, it's a fun journey though. I'm glad I did it because I said I'm only gonna do one and then I'm done. And then that week I was like, you know what? My legs feel okay, let's sign up for New York.

Yeah.

And at least do New York and LA, and you know, we'll see from there.

I think you gotta do like a 50 miler as well. In LA in this area, there's some great, even a 50K, which is 31 miles. That sounds more reasonable to me. On the trails, it's a different game. It might take you eight or 10 hours.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The hills are so steep, even the elite athletes can't run up some of the hills. They're what they call unrunnable.

Whole mountain.

So you power hike up, yeah. So you hike, so it's gonna take eight hours? take eight hours. And you're out there by yourself a lot more. Like the LA Marathon, San Francisco Marathon, New York City Marathon, you're surrounded by humanity. When you do an ultra on the trails, there's a lot of time you're out there by yourself just in nature. It's a different experience.

It's probably a lot harder because you don't have the cheering and the support and everyone running with you. The solo runner.

I don't know. You have moments with yourself when you're in nature. you know, you can get enough of most things in life, but never nature. You know, that's one thing you just can never get, me at least can never get enough of.

What was the biggest lesson you learned from 40 to 50 in that decade of running?

That I could still keep it up and still keep be competitive, you know, I was still, I mean, I won the world's toughest foot race we were talking about, the Badwater Ultramarathon, I was 42. Yeah, and I mean, that's the most elite of the elite in the sport. you know, you hear about, like, Nadal, who's 35, or 30, I think he turned 36. He was just like, amazing. He's been going for so long, which is amazing. But here they're ultra marathoners in their mid-40s that are, you know, winning these races. Yeah.

And then how old are you now?

I'm closer to 60 than 50.

Closer to 60. So in this decade, from 50 to where you are now, what's been the.

Biggest lesson from running itself or just. that the history of ultra-marathoning has been around a long time. So I'm 100% Greek and I started studying classics and I started learning about the ancient Greeks and how they had these foot heralds called him of the roomie that were essentially a faster internet. The Greeks realized that in the mountainous and, you know, rocky and steep and hot terrain of Southern Greece, a man could outrun a horse.

Really?

Yes.

Huh.

Literally.

How is that possible? Because a horse would just get too tired, too big?

Yep, yep. I could run a horse. I've done a 100 mile foot race in Vermont against a horse, and I beat the horse. Because of course it just got tired and stopped. The horse, you know, they can't dissipate heat. There's a lot of theories about it. They can't dissipate heat because they have fur in our hair where we breathe and we can sweat, you know, and we get that evaporative cooling where they don't have that. So that's one reason.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously a horse can out sprint us, but in the long run a man can outrun a horse.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So the man in Greece would run and what was the process?

They were like literally the faster internet. So they could dispatch these heralds all around to like gather intelligence, disseminate information. So if they got invaded by like the Persians invaded at Marathon, you know, in 490 BC, Instead of the Persian cavalry being able to get out there quicker, they sent this Greek runner, Pheidippides, that outran these horses and got to Sparta. And if you've seen 300, you know the-- so he tried to recruit the Spartans to come help the Athenians. And he ran 153 miles. And Herodotus says he arrived the day after setting up, which is like sub-36 hours. And I thought, how could a guy do this 2,500 years ago? you know, he didn't have hokas.

No shoes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was eating, you know, figs and he was foraging all along. He didn't have a headlamp at night. I mean, how did he navigate? It was just amazing to learn about the, you know, the history of endurance.

Wow. What would you say is the, the thing you think about the most when you go out on your runs today? What's, is there, is there a reoccurring thought that brings you Joy? Is there a thought that makes you suffer? Is there anything you think about more consistently?

Well, I mean, I've come to the age where it's just gonna suck when you start out. Just getting going.

And for anyone, just getting going.

And anyone realizes that, you know, sometimes the biggest challenge is just to get out the front door, you know, so-- Put the shoes on and start going. Yeah, and I've got the self-discipline now. I can get out the front door, but I just know that, okay, this first mile is gonna hurt like it never used to. Like, used to be springy on the first mile. Now you're gonna have to warm up. I really, I've never warmed up. I've never stretched. I've never done foam rollers. I haven't done anything. And so now there's just kind of that expectation that's going to hurt a little bit when you start out. But the joy is still there. I still feel the magic of running. And it's that high that it's like a drug, but it's a good drug, right? There's no repercussions, right? I mean, there's no withdrawal symptoms. kind of withdrawal symptoms, you just miss it. But it's not like, you know, an actual drug where you, you know, you're going to the, to with actual withdrawal. So I don't see any downside to running, you know?

What about the, there's some science coming out there saying that running that far in your body older in life is going to hurt yourself. It's going to make, you know, give yourself more pain or hurt the joints or the the knees, the hips, these things which could be harder to extend your life. Have you heard any of this information out there or seen this science?

No, I mean I've heard of, you know, telomeres extending when you are an endurance athlete. Really? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, it's one of the best ways to preserve your telomeres is through, you know, aerobic exercise.

What about joint functionality?

I don't subscribe. Some people say you only have so many foot strikes in your life and then your joints are gone, but I don't subscribe to that at all. I mean, I know that's not true. So, I think that when you go to the LA Marathon, for instance, if you stood at that finish line long enough, you'd see 70, 80-year-olds coming through the finish line. That's amazing. And compared to their peers, their joints have less osteoarthritis, they have less rheumatoid arthritis, they're in much better shape. I think we're made to move, made to run.

Are you doing any lifting as well or any other type of exercise or mostly running?

No, I mean my whole day is exercise, literally. I view my life through the lens of being the best animal I can be. That involves my training, my cross training, my sleep, obviously my interpersonal relationships, which I think are really important. I think that a lot of athletes overlook that if you have turbulent interpersonal relationships, ships, it impacts negatively impacts your performance. So I try to optimize all of these things. And one thing I've learned is that I do not sit down. Like my, when I'm at home, I mean, I had to sit down here because I had to get a flight and then fly down here. But during the normal course of a day, when I get out of bed, I don't sit until I get back into bed.

Even for meals?

Nothing. Yeah, my whole house and my home office is all engineered for standing. So all my writing is done standing. And then I have this hit training routine I do, which mainly body weight with pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, chair dips, squats, and burpees, which I know. So I do those, I probably do five or six, sometimes seven sets of that throughout the day. It's about a 12 to 13 minute hit routine and it's, you know, the pull-up bar is right outside my house. So I like to exercise outside. So I go do body weight exercise mostly. So not so much weights. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, and then how much are you running a day? Just depends on the day.

It depends on the day. Yeah, it depends if I have a training block, if something's coming up. But, you know, a lot of times I'm racing so much that I'm kind of racing and then I'm recovering and then I'm kind of tapering for the next race and then I'm racing. So it's always like, every weekend I'm running a race.

Did you always know how important sleep was for performance and recovery in your 30s or was that something more you've learned in the last 10 plus years?

Very much the latter.

Right.

Yeah, I was kind of known as a guy who like sleeps three to four hours a night.

Wow.

And I would do that for months on end and sometimes I feel tired and I just think that's because you haven't exercised enough. So yeah, I really-- Push through it. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Push through the sleep by exercising.

Oh my gosh. What do you think that did to your body for those years?

I think I could have, hindsight's 2020, right? I mean, I think I could have done a lot of things differently that I would have been healthier. I mean, I used to think that when I first started ultra-marathoning that just any sort of calorie was a calorie.

Pizza, ice cream, cookies, didn't matter.

Yeah, I mean, I've never lived down the story of ordering a pizza. You know, I was doing this 12-person, 200-mile relay race. But you ran it by yourself. I don't have 11 friends. So, yeah, so it stuck out in the middle of the night on this backcountry route, and there was no food.

There was nothing around, but I had.

A Motorola flip phone. Remember those? Oh, you don't remember those?

Yeah, yeah, of course, now I remember. And a credit card, and I ordered a pizza and had the guy deliver it to me. And you know, you said, Hey, I'm running on this highway, drop it off here in 30 minutes.

I told him where I should be at. He should be here. Yeah, I'm like, I'll be on, he's like, what house are you in? I'm like, I'm not, I'm running. He's like, well, how will I find you? I'm like, I'm the only guy.

It's 11 o'clock at night. It's hilarious. With a headlamp running on the side.

Of the road on this backcountry road. So, wow. So, he delivered it, whole pizza, did you eat the whole thing? And did you run and eat it, or were you walking? No, I mean, I told him, Don't slice it. and make it with a really thin crust. So you could eat a lot easier. Yeah, and I said also Hawaiian style. I know it's kind of controversial these days with pineapple on my pizza, but I said, I thought pepperoni would be too spicy. So I ordered Hawaiian style and I.

Just rolled it into this big Italian like burrito.

That's amazing. It just ate it so good. It came all over me, but it was so good. Yeah, I had a whole pizza, but I mean, people say, how do you eat a pizza and run? I was running for 45 hours. You know, when was the last time you ran for 45 hours? There's only so many gel packs you can eat.

Right.

Your stomach is, yeah. You need that thing. 45 hours you ran.

Yeah.

What's the longest you ran non-stop? I mean, without stopping to go to.

The bathroom, but not stopping. Well, I mean, in one, like I've run across America, so I've run 20.

3200 miles, but I've run- Without sleeping, I should say.

350 miles. 350 miles without sleeping. Yeah, in 81 hours. 81 hours and 44 minutes.

350 miles. How far is that? That's like LA to San Francisco? What is that?

It's pretty close. It's like Ventura to San Francisco. Wow.

That's incredible.

It was interesting because the second night, what is that?

Three, four days?

It was three nights without sleep.

Three nights without sleep. How does your body keep going after the first night?

I can run through one night without sleep, no problem. I can run through two nights, no problem. The third night got a little dicey.

Yeah.

You're getting loopy probably at that point, right?

Well, I woke up one time in.

The middle of the road. I'm like, why am I running down the middle of the road? Like, I know better than to do this. So I kind of meandered over the shoulder, and then it happened again. I'm running down the middle of the road.

I'm like, oh, you weren't even, you fell asleep running.

I was asleep. Holy God.

I willed myself to keep going.

Yeah.

So your eyes kind of fell asleep.

While you're just jogging? While I'm jogging. And you weren't even aware where you were. No. Remember cramming for like a final?

Yeah.

You know, you did the head bob. It was one of those things.

I'm just running and I'd wake up going, Jesus, I'm running. How do you train your mind to push through three nights of no sleep and 350 miles consistently? How do you go to a place in your mind that says, I'm going to keep going even though this seems crazy?

Yeah, I mean people say, what do you think about? And I don't. I mean thinking is what gets you in trouble. Because you start thinking, you start doing the math, you start thinking this is insanely impossible. Like this will never work. So you don't think. You just execute by taking your next step.

And you do that for 80 hours. How do you not think for 80 hours though? Do you look and see the landscape? Are you thinking about relationships in your life or none of that comes into place. You're just thinking next step, next step for 80 hours.

Early on, you think about all the things you just mentioned. You look at the landscape, you watch the beautiful sunset, the moonrise, you see all these things. But as you progress, you start seeing less and less. You just start being a presence. I mean, you literally lose your ego. You lose every sense of being. You're just something moving along down the road. The third morning that I, you know, after sleep running, it was dawn and the sun's coming up. I'm still a little groggy, as you can imagine.

Of course.

And I see like a praying mantis down below my feet. I'm looking down at this stick figure, this bug, like an army man kind of moving along. I'm like, what the heck is that? And it dawned on me, that's me. I think I had an out-of-body experience. It was as though I was in a helicopter or a hot air balloon looking down on this thing and I'm like, that's me.

So you'd actually see a praying mantis.

Yeah, I'm looking, there was no praying mantis. It was like this figure between my feet. It was a hallucination. I was like, and then when I tuned in on that image, it was.

Like, oh, that's me down there.

You were truly out-of-body experience. Yeah, I think so.

Wow.

Yeah.

What is the most spiritual experience you had while running?

You know, this gets a little sentimental, but I had a kid sister who was like my best friend, Perry, and she was killed in a car accident on her 18th birthday, and I was a couple years older, and I still, I talk to her a lot. It's funny. That's the only time, like, I really, like, seem like I'm connecting with her.

Really?

Yeah, vividly, vividly.

Your kid sister?

Yeah. And this is, you know, I mean, I was 21, so I'm not, I said I'm closer to 60 than 50 now, so this is many, many decades ago, and we still- you- have a conversation with her? We have a conversation, yeah.

What do you talk about? All kinds of things.

We talk about, she knew my wife Julie, 'cause Julie was my high school sweetheart. She asked how Julie's doing. She said, Are you worried about mom and dad?

They're getting up, 'cause my parents are still around. this is your younger sister? My younger sister.

Oh, wow.

She died when she was 18, was that? She was 18, I was 21. Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So you have these conversations with her?

I have these conversations, yeah.

That's beautiful. Would you say every week you have these conversations or?

No, no. This during longer runs and it's usually when, like I said, I was just in Patagonia running a 100-mile race and, you know, it's South America and it's very different than running like in the San Gabriel Mountains or anywhere around here. And we had a lot of conversations, you know, like, wow, look at this. I mean, so different here. I saw some, I thought they were llamas, they're alpacas. And I said, you know, these things are so trippy looking.

What is the biggest lesson she's taught you in these conversations?

To do what you love. It always comes back to you. She's so proud of me. You actually did what you love and you're still doing it. Yeah, because she always used to, she was very whimsical. and I thought she was impractical. I'm like, come on, you can't conduct your life like this. But she was like so smart, but she never studied. And she was so like wise. But yeah, she was like a force. And I didn't know how she got through a day. She was just always like looking at flowers and I'm like her mind is somewhere else. And she's so she so appreciated beauty. She would look at things and say, wow, isn't that beautiful? And I was like, yeah, it's a tree. Come on, let's go.

Yeah.

Wow. Was it just you and her, or.

Did you have other siblings? I have a brother as well.

Yeah.

Yeah, younger brother, a year younger. But we weren't as tight.

Like, he's a different kind of guy than me. Sure. So decades later, you still have these conversations. That's pretty interesting. Would you feel like you're more connected.

To her spirit now than when she was alive? You know, I mean, I do, and whether this is a construct in my own mind, whether I'm actually connecting with someone, but I've kept her alive, you know, and she's always, she hasn't aged, which is so funny. I'm always talking to this 18-year-old. She's 18. Well, she's like Socrates and she's 18 years old and it's the same figure, yeah.

Yeah.

That's pretty interesting. I like that. I mean, my, You know, something's coming up for me because my father passed in February this year and I feel like I'm more connected to him now than when he was alive. And I have conversations with him when I speak to him. But I never had anyone close to me pass away until recently. And so it's been interesting to have that experience and see the best of him consistently in that spiritual space. So that's kind of interesting. Does she just come to you? Is it more she's running alongside you or she's just kind of in your thought while you're running?

-Now, we have actual conversations. -And it's not... -She's with you. She's like, yeah. -She's with me. And I don't know why it happens. Like, I don't, I kind of, because I'm like thinking to myself, am I crazy? Like, am I losing my mind? And this is where, am I heading for the insane asylum? Like, where's the finish line here? But I don't, she just pops in. Like, it's not, I'm trying to think, Am I set, is there some kernel that I'm planting that's like bringing this on, but it doesn't, it just randomly happens at times when you would otherwise not think it, you know? It just, yeah. I don't know why it happens, yeah.

That's pretty cool, usually on the longer runs.

It's usually longer runs, and it's always in the wilderness, you know, in the mountains.

When you prepare for a big race, a big ultra, 100 plus miles, even though that might seem like a, a 5K to you now, 100 miler. But when you're preparing for something 100 plus or a day long plus, how does your mind prepare? You know, the week before, the day before, right before the, the start of it, where do you go mentally? Or is at this point you're just so automatic, you just, I know what to eat, I know how to train, I know how to sleep. I just show up when I just, Do it?

No, I still think about it quite a bit. Yeah, and I try to prepare. A game plan, a strategy.

Yeah, a game plan.

You know, you plan for the best, but I mean, you hope for the best, but you plan for the worst. So I'm always, worst case scenario, do you have a backup? Like this running Patagonia, this is crazy, but I took three flashlights, three headlamps.

Because if one goes down, you're screwed.

Yeah, you're screwed. All three of them, like two of them didn't turn on. No way. I couldn't believe it. I'm always like, have a backup plan for your backup plan. Okay, here's my bag. No worries, I got another flashlight. Did not work. Yeah, and then-- All three? All three of them.

Didn't work.

Did not work.

Did you check the batteries beforehand and.

Make sure they were good? I did everything. I mean, I did every-- I charged, like two of them, one was two of them were with batteries, and the other was you charged it. So I charged it in the hotel all night, so it was fully charged. I knew to do that. None of them worked. Wow.

So what did you do? When everything goes wrong, When you have a backup plan and that goes wrong, how do you keep going?

I made-- with two guys who found me out there, who didn't-- my Spanish is horrible. These guys didn't speak any English. I did, you know, hand signaling, and they said, Sure, and they kind of escorted me. So we all ran together with the power of their headlamp behind me. You know, they knew how to do it. And I'm talking about 10 miles through single track in Patagonia in the middle of the night. So it was, you know, it was really skilled because, you know, I wanted to go a little bit faster than they were going, but it's like, I'm not-- But you had to go slower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm so grateful. Anyway, they got me to the next aid station and they went and started talking to some people. And there was a guy there who, another aid station volunteer, was a mountaineer. And he had a headlamp. And he just gave me his headlamp. I mean, these are people out in, you know, these are not rich people. I mean, I don't know how long it took this guy to work to buy this headlamp. So I tried to give him my headlamps. Like here, these are good. He wouldn't have it. He would not, and I just, at a point I said, you know what? He's giving to me, accept it. And he gave me his headlamp, and the thing lasted through two nights.

Wow.

I couldn't, yeah, it lasted, just three batteries were in there, it lasted through two nights.

And all three of yours didn't work.

All three of my, go figure that. So anyway, that's a long-winded answer to your question. I do plan, but, you know, when I'm at the starting line, I used to get very nervous.

Really?

And now, yeah, I mean, even at a marathon, I get nervous. But now I just have the same commitment that, you know, I'm going to be the best that I can be today. Like, I'm going to lay it all out. I'm not going to leave anything on the course. Like, I'm going to be the best dean and I'm going to give it my all. And even if I fail, I'm going to not fail because I'm going to have given it everything I've got. There's going to be no compromising.

But you're one of the most incredible runners in the world. How do you still get nervous?

I think it's a good thing. I never take it for granted, you know?

Yeah. Wow.

That's incredible, man. So you're still nervous. How do you calm your nerves then before a big race? I just, again, it's just coming back.

To the fact that I can't, there's so many things you can't control. It's very, you know, it's maybe stoic, but you know, you can't control the weather, you can't control the competition, control yourself. So my commitment is just, Dean, you're gonna give it your all today. Whatever happens, you might win, you might fail, but you're not gonna walk away without giving it your all. They're gonna carry you out of here on a stretcher. You're gonna fight to the very end.

Is that what it takes for you? To stop being carried out on a stretcher?

It's happened before.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's my fight. I'm not a UFC fighter. you know, I see what those guys do. I couldn't do that, but I will run until it beats me or I beat it.

Have you ever broken any bones in your legs, your feet?

Just a rib. Just a rib.

Running?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I had a little skirmish with a tree root. I got my stock foot stuck under one and went over the handlebars and landed on a rock in Colorado.

Okay.

And it just broke one of my ribs.

But have you ever fractured your feet or toes? Or just like swollen?

You know, it's funny, I've never had a running related injury of any sort.

You get on a bicycle though, you get hurt, huh? Yeah, I tried to drive a car, I'd get hurt.

I don't know, I sold my car like 10 years ago. Really?

Yeah.

You just run everywhere.

I run everywhere. Grocery store, you run to the grocery store?

I have different size packs, depending on what I'm gonna do, like what kind of errand I'm gonna run.

Yeah.

But you don't run in a car, you actually run the errand.

I run the errand. You run the errand, yeah. And I mean, I used to think people would think I was weird. Like, if I have a meeting in San Francisco, I live about an hour and a half north in a place called Marin County. So I leave an hour and a half early and I just, you know.

Use a bathroom, kind of sponge off.

An hour and a half run north, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I run into San Francisco, have a meeting, and I used to think people would think it's weird that I'm walking in, kind of sweaty, you know, with a running pack. and they're like, you ran here? No, I'm like, yeah, yeah. And then I run home. So that's amazing.

Yeah.

So no car. Do you do a bike anywhere or. No, no.

I mean, I have this thing called an elliptigo, which is like a standing. It's like a standing bike. Elliptigo. Like, it's kind of weird. Yeah, it's like a. It moves, but it. The handlebars are like bike handlebars. Right. You. It's more like a running motion.

Yes.

Yeah. I know. I've seen this. Yeah, they're kind of weird. They look like a big praying mantis, but I ride one.

It's more like a running motion. It's a good cross training. So you do that and you run and you walk.

Yeah.

And you'll take a plane. Yeah.

And a taxi every now and then. Well, I mean, I was sponsored by Volkswagen. And it came time to renew our agreement. And I'm like, you know, guys, I don't feel good about this. Like, why? You're killing it. And I'm like, look at the car. It's got 2,000 miles.

I've had it for a year.

It's got 2,000 miles. And mostly I was just driving to.

The airport and back.

I'm like, I don't feel very good about this. I can't promote a car if I don't drive. And I thought, we all talk about what we can do for the environment. Here's something tangible I can actually do, is I'm not going to drive. And people say, I could never do this. It'd be so inconvenient. Yeah, it's very inconvenient. Yeah, but I've adjusted my lifestyle. to make it that way.

-Right.

-Yeah.

When you think about failure, how do you overcome the thought around failing and anything you're doing?

I think again, it's that commitment that just, I'm going to give it my all and I'm going to go out fighting even if I fail. Yeah. -And do you ever doubt yourself?

-All the time.

-Really? -Yeah. All the time.

-How do you overcome that self-doubt?

-Drive, I think.

Yeah.

-When you doubt yourself, Is it, well, I'm just so driven to make this happen or see if I can make this dream come true that it's more powerful than the self-doubt where it doesn't hold you back or what does that do?

It motivates me. I mean, I've had some success in my life, but I grovel every day. Every morning I get up like, How the hell am I going to make a living today?

Really?

Yeah.

How am I going to have an impact? I'm nothing. get out there and do something, make something of yourself. Yeah, I don't know why you feel that way. Why do you feel that way?

But you've had so many massive successes and broken so many records and impacted so many lives. Why do you feel that at this age?

Maybe it's imposter syndrome. I don't know. I've analyzed it a bit, you know? I think that, you know, success is simple as being all you can be, right? If you really believe you're all you can be, then you're successful. And maybe I think that I could be more, you know, that I'm letting myself down. What more could you be?

Oh, I've got dreams, you know.

I mean, I just finished a movie script. I mean, this sounds so crazy.

Really?

Yeah, it's about Socrates. That's cool. Yeah, so it's a modern telling of Socrates. So you just wrote a movie script? Yeah, but I mean, it is based on Socrates' life. So it's a retelling. It's based on, like, literally Herodotus. So it's based on historic record.

Interesting, but more from modern day or back then?

That's the irony in the thing. When you read it, it's hard to tell because they're talking about democracy failing and how it can be better. And you read about like, we need to free the slaves, women need equal rights. They were talking about this 2500 years ago. And so you read it and you're like, oh, these are the same things we're discussing today. Literally. Yeah, it's the same topics.

Which philosopher and ancient philosopher are you most inspired by? Is it Socrates?

Socrates, or there was a guy named Aeschylus who fought in the Battle of Marathon.

Okay, Aeschylus.

Aeschylus, yeah.

What's his story?

He was a playwright. He was a Tragian, they call him, right in tragic plays. And he just has a lot of great quotes, you know, like men seek God and seeking find him. So it's all about this, you find God when you seek. So, I mean, Aeschylus is, yeah, with.

An A. Aeschylus with an A. Aeschylus with an A. Okay, I'll check him out. That's interesting. What's the greatest lessons that Socrates or Aeschylus has taught you?

Socrates, I mean, I could go on and on about Socrates, but he said the only thing I know is that I know nothing at all, which he just had an open mind like that. He said it's better to suffer wrong than do wrong. He did no wrong. There's no such thing as revenge.

It's better to suffer wrong than to do wrong. What does that mean for you?

That means that it's a theory of revenge. I mean, it's so Greeks were so conflicted because here you have Odysseus and Troy and Achilles trying to get revenge on the Trojans and then Socrates saying, no, you do no wrong, no matter what. It's an absolute. You just never do wrong. And I think if you conduct your life that way, he said there's no pillow so soft as a clear conscience. And I think there's a lot to that.

Yeah, because revenge might feel good in the moment, but then you're doing something wrong. You're trying to right a wrong through a wrong.

Do it wrong, yeah. Sound like a Greek philosopher.

Just not going to feel good at the end of the day. Yeah, exactly. You're thinking about what you did for our friend.

Exactly. And he said, Never tear down others, focus all your energy on bettering yourself. And I think we all have a tendency to get jealous. He had no jealousy. I mean, when you read about Socrates, he didn't know the feeling of jealousy. You really start to that. He didn't have envy. That's like a prison, right? If you feel envy, it's a horrible feeling. So if you don't have those feelings, you just feel better throughout the course of the day. So I don't envy anymore and I celebrate other people, even my competitors. I celebrate their success.

It feels so much better than being envious.

Than being angry or upset.

Yeah, exactly. What was the biggest challenge for you to overcome in the last three decades on this journey? whether it was jealousy or doubting yourself or envy or...

It's the same thing everyone has to overcome, it's themselves, right? It's your own limitations that are self contrived. We all live in a prison with the door wide open, you know?

What has been your biggest limit that you've overcome?

I'm incredibly, incredibly nervous right now. I am an introvert. I could be a monk and I'd be very happy.

Really?

Like, oh, you mean in this moment you're nervous?

Fuck, dude.

Why? You're Dean Kamenas, man. You're the legend.

Yeah, people say that to me all the time. They have no idea how much anxiety I have. Yeah, no, I just, I mean, I'm talking to someone that's so, you're so far beyond me. I can't even comprehend how you build a business like you've done. I can't manage my own life, let alone manage other people.

You can manage your running. you can manage your health and fitness, which most people don't, you know, what is it, a third of the US is now obese? It's like you can manage so much more than a lot of people struggle with.

Yeah, I guess that's a way to look at it. It doesn't really...

Most people can't complete anything. You complete something every day that is more people that people do in their entire lives.

Maybe because it's, some of it comes kind of easy. I don't understand how, yeah, but I get so... I mean, I give corporate keynotes, kind of like you do. You should see me in the green room. Oh, dude. Yeah, I mean, I'm so nervous.