If You Want To FIND YOUR PURPOSE In Life, WATCH THIS! | Jenna Kutcher

Sometimes I think that people get really lost because they're like, well, yeah, if I knew what my passion was, I could go figure out a way to make money, but I don't even know what my passion is, right? And sometimes I think knowing what you don't want is just as important as knowing what you do want.

Right. And sometimes I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

You were a full-time wedding photographer still, I think, and then you were just kind of getting into teaching a little bit and coaching and things like that. And I think maybe you created one course or something at the time. And now it's been an amazing evolution of six years of building a massive podcast, courses, you did events for a while, but just being a nomad entrepreneur. You travel the world, you live in different locations, you're a mom, and you're able to build a business that is designed around a lifestyle, which is what I've always talked about and tried to live by my life is like, how do I live my life and then build a business around that? Not where I'm trapped by it. That's something you've stood by since day one. Truly. So it's really inspiring. And I remember, yeah, when you were in the mastermind, I was just like, Jenna, get this. I was like, you got it. And you were just like, okay, yes, I'm gonna do this and execute and then just get results. That's been your journey.

You know, it's crazy getting ready this morning because I was just like, I really am awake to life in that this is a pinch me moment. And I don't miss that. I don't miss that in even the mundane everyday life with my kids. I just am awake to like, wow. And it was crazy because I was just thinking about my journey with you. And I remember your email coming through announcing the Mastermind. I remember jumping on it. I mean, I filled out that form faster. than you can imagine. But I also feel like there's times in your life where there's this line in the sand where there is a very clear before and after, right? Where you see a massive transformation and joining your mastermind was the first time I really invested in myself in a big way. It was so scary. I remember writing the check and I couldn't even tell Drew, my husband, The amount because when you bet on yourself, it's like, I better prove myself right, right? Like you're like, I better make this a worthy investment and holy cow, but it is so cool to be with you here in this setting. Think of like how far we've come in like even just our relationship too over the time. It's like we've done a lot of life together.

A lot of trips and masterminds and- It's cool. Ups and downs and everything in between. And it's so fun to watch your journey because I remember Just thinking like, oh, if you just start keeping consistent, great things are gonna happen. And they've been happening. You've got a book out now, how are you really, your podcast again, all your courses, everything is just all very inspiring. I'm curious, what was kind of a pivotal moment after the mastermind where you realize things can take off financially and in business and you don't have to overextend yourself? You know, because there was probably times where you may be overextended for a while.

Oh, yeah.

But when did you realize you could do both?

Yeah. Okay, so there's actually a story in the book about your mastermind, which we'll talk about. But it was kind of crazy because being in the mastermind for me, as someone from the Midwest who lives in small town Minnesota, I had literally never been in a room with people who could say, like, I desire wealth or I desire freedom or I desire flexibility. Like it was so crazy for me to be around people who were unapologetic about their pursuit, whatever their pursuit looked like, whether it was financial or lifestyle or flexibility. And it was the first time that I was around people where they were just like, here's what I'm going after. And I was like, whoa, like even to speak those types of things, especially in the Midwest, you know.

Sure.

It's like people think you are crazy.

You didn't talk about money or how much you wanted to make or none of that. How much you were making.

So it really opened my eyes to like this new world because I feel like before joining your Mastermind, I was so lonely in the pursuit. And I also felt like, am I greedy or why do I want these things? Or am I hitting my own ceiling, my own glass ceiling? And when I was in your Mastermind, I was in the heart of a really big pivot because I was a wedding photographer. I had experienced my first loss of pregnancy. So I remember at the first mastermind you had is get up front and just say who you are and one thing you were working on. And I remember I got up and I'm not a nervous person. I can speak wherever. And something overcame me where I decided to share about that loss. And I was just like, I really want to be a mom and this isn't happening right now. And you had everyone in the mastermind write on a slip of paper, like if they could help you with whatever that goal was, just write your name and phone number down.

And past like how they could help or something, right? Yeah.

And Dr. Laura Noelle was in the mastermind and she had written on a piece of paper and it said, I will help you with your fertility.

She was a fertility expert, yeah.

Yes, and I remember getting that piece of paper and thinking, I don't need help. My loss was a fluke. that's really, really sweet, but whatever. But for some reason, I held onto that paper. And in the course of the following year, we ended up experiencing our second loss. And I found that slip of paper, literally days after our second loss that said, I will help you with your fertility with a phone number. And there's a story in the book about how I joined a mastermind thinking, For one thing, I'm gonna explode my business and all of these things. and really it exploded my life. So to get back to your question of, you know, when have there been seasons where you've overextended yourself or gone in the opposite direction? I think a lot of us achievers are prone to do that. It's like the cycle. But I've recognized time and time again that success shouldn't look a certain way, it should feel a certain way. And when I stay in alignment with how it should feel, I am so much more at peace and not like in the pursuit of like this frantic pace.

What should it feel like?

For me, it feels like peace and it feels like no urgency. Like when you say no stress, you mean it. You know what I mean?

Sure.

My team and I, we have this thing where it's like we literally start every message with like, this isn't urgent, but here's what we need. Because it's like this reminder.

I'm not gonna get it done soon.

Well, but it's like, really, it's like, don't worry, but if you're in your life, be in your life, but when you come back on, this is what.

I'm waiting for, but it's like, Right, we don't need this right now. Don't stop your whatever you're doing, but get back when you're back in the work mode.

Interesting. That's cool. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, it's been interesting, but it's, you know, it's just crazy to think about, we often say in the business world too, it's like, Sell people what they think they want, but serve them what they need. And when I look at my experience and specifically my experience with you, it was like, I joined the mastermind for this one thing, but I ended up then ended up working with Dr. Noelle. She helped me and I really, truly attribute a lot of my ability to carry a successful pregnancy to my work with her.

Which is kind of crazy.

And I met her through you.

That's beautiful. I'm sure you would have met someone eventually like that, but I'm glad that they brought you-- I'm not taking credit. You were a good father. I'm the reason you have a child. No, I think, you know, people, you attract the things you need, you're looking for things you need, and people will find their way to you. That's really beautiful. Then why, you also said back then that you would never do a book.

Yes.

You were like, I'm never doing a book, so why did you decide you wanted to do a book? And what's the messaging intention behind it?

Yeah, so I remember because you were launching Race Exhausting. The second book, the Mask of Masculinity, and it was coming out, and it was basically kind of launched right around your event, right?

Yes.

Yeah, we got our first book.

It was like right afterwards, yeah.

Yep. And I remember we each got one question to ask, and I remember looking at you and being like, why would anyone do a book? So I remember being, I don't understand it. And I said for many years, I will never do this. I'll never write a book. And We were in a season with our family, so we now had our first daughter, Coco. I was gonna get pregnant with my second child, hopefully. And it's a long story and it's a part of my book in the epilogue, but it was in the middle of the pandemic and it was when things were like slightly creeping open again. And it was mine and Drew's 10-year anniversary. And I was like, we can't really go to a fancy dinner, whatever, but I booked us massages. and it was in Northern Minnesota, a town of 1200 people. There's this place called Lutz in. And I booked us massages, and I go in for my massage, and the woman there, her name is Thea, and she's like, I'm a medical medium. And I was like, interesting. I don't know what that means, but cool. Let's go get the rub down. So I go down, get my massage, have my mask on my face, and after the massage, she goes, can I tell you what? what came up for you today? And here I'm just booking like a 60-minute massage. I'm like, sure, I'm very open-minded. What came up? And she goes, there's something you need to do and you know you need to do it, but you're avoiding it. You're turning your hips away from it. And when you were laying on the table, I just wanted to hold your hips down and say, follow the path. You know what you need to do. She didn't say, like, you need to write a book, but you know what? I knew right away.

Really?

I, with utter clarity, she goes, Do you know what I'm talking about? And I go, Mm-. And I come home from that massage and I have like the ring of the table on my eyes and Drew's like, How was your massage? And I was like, I'm writing a book. And it's really wild because people have described the process to me at times and they're like, Once you know, it just pours out of you. And I'm like, that is bogus. Like writing a book is a lot of work. And what's crazy is that exact night, because you know I execute really well. I opened up a Google Doc and.

I wrote the first half of the book in a night.

It was crazy. And it was funny. So I intentionally did everything in the book process backwards on purpose. So for me, the times in my life where I've grown or evolved have been when I've allowed myself to be really creative. And whenever money or a paycheck or a deadline gets involved, my creativity is stripped. And so I was like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it my way. So I wrote the book without telling a soul, without a book deal, without an agent, with no commitment or deadline or paycheck. So I was like, if I'm going to do this, I want to make sure that I'm doing it for the right reason. And I want it to matter to me first. Have you ever had someone, has this happened to you, where I've been approached by people and they're like, this is what your book is about. And I'm like, no. Or like, I can't wait to read a book about this from you. And it's like, that's not what I wanna write about. So I wrote the entire book. I gave myself a deadline, December 31st. So I started it at the end of August, December 31st, finished it December 31st. And then I went through, the process after that. And it was really cool because I did what I wanted to do without any feedback, without announcing it to the world. Nobody knew about it, not even my family. I just really kept it close to my heart because for so long I said, I'm not gonna do it. So then I was like, if I start telling people, then I'm gonna feel commitment that I have to do it, and maybe it's not the right time or the right thing, but it turns out it was.

And what does it end up being about then?

Yeah. So what's crazy and a good lesson for all of us is I wrote a business book at first. Now, my book, How Are youre Really? is not a business book, but I thought, you know, I run the Gold Digger podcast. I'm the marketing person. I love all that stuff. But I do business and marketing so that I can live life in a way that other people can. And in the marketing business book that I wrote, there were a lot of stories that were way deeper than just strategies. and so when I finally got my book agent and she read through the whole thing and she pulled out chapters for my proposal, because she had the entire manuscript, the proposal was not a business book. So when I did all my editors calls and stuff, they were like, you know, this is great, but like, we're not talking about branding. We're not like, you like, this is a book that we need, and we're in nine to fives. And so it really expanded it. And for me, too, it was like, Where do I want to see it on the shelves at Barnes & Noble? Where do I envision it? And it wasn't in the business category. It was beautiful because as a former photographer, it almost felt like I was widening the lens. I was zoomed in and I needed to back off, but it also meant a lot more work.

Exactly.

So we scrapped a good chunk of what I wrote and maybe someday I'll write a business book, but I'm so proud of what it is. Naming a book is really hard. You and I were actually just talking about that and I hate naming things. Like my first course was the Jenna Kutcher course because I literally couldn't think of a name. And so we had all these different working titles throughout the process and it was 10 days before I gave birth to my second child and we were like, we need a name. And I kept voice texting people asking advice and in the voice messages I would say, You know those conversations where you're like, how are you? Oh, good, great, busy, fine. And then you feel safe enough and invited to lean in and be like, but how are you really? And someone was like, why don't you just call it that? And I was like, really? And it became that.

There you go.

That wild.

It's beautiful. The whole process is beautiful, I think, of coming up with an idea, launching it, making it a name. But a lot of people are afraid of putting something out there. Were you afraid to create it? Or were you afraid beforehand that you just never wanted to do the work of it? Or why do you think a lot of people are afraid to put something out there?

Yeah. I was never afraid of the work, but to me it never made sense in my life because I remember telling you this and being like, why would you spend two years on a project that doesn't necessarily provide a really bountiful paycheck when you could spend like two months building a course, launching it, getting it out into the world, and like reaping the rewards. And I really genuinely feel like there is a tipping point in our lives where there are seasons where it's like you will hustle and trade your time for money and then there becomes this time where all of a sudden time is more valuable. Like you will trade money to claim back your time. You've talked about that a lot. And so it became this thing where it was like it has nothing to do with the money. I mean, I wrote the whole thing without a Penny promised. And so I was never afraid of the work, but it's fascinating because I really kept it close to my heart. Like, I didn't let people read it. I didn't want opinions. And so even my own husband texted me the other night because he has a copy and he's reading it and it feels so vulnerable.

Because you don't know what they're thinking or feeling. Yes. What are they gonna say?

Yes. And like, or what's gonna impact them or like, I was talking to somebody the other day and it's like, you and I have lived many shared experiences together. But we could be in the same hour segment sitting side by side and our takeaways could be totally different. And when you're putting out these stories and being vulnerable and sharing different things, it's like, whoo, it feels like a piece of your heart. And one of the biggest lessons I've learned in this process is, My book is a piece of my life's work, but it's not the only thing. It's like just a piece of it. And so it's like a very important piece to me, but there's a lot more beyond it.

What do you feel like has been the biggest challenge for you in the last couple of years then? The face.

Yeah, so I feel like when people ask me, how are you really? It's like, I'm experiencing the fullness of life. And I mean that in a way of like, I want it all. And I've had to define what it all looks like. And I want to be a present hands-on mom. And I also want to have a great career in like the dichotomy of like chasing both of those things simultaneously coupled with things like mom guilt and all of that. It's like you're constantly questioning like, am I in the right place?

You mean if you're being present with your...

If I'm working, I'm thinking about my kids. If I'm with my kids, I'm thinking about work.

Really?

Always.

How do you shift to just being present to one or the other?

I have to literally ground myself. I have started this practice and I do it all the time now, but when I enter the threshold of a room, I have to consciously be like, I am all here right now. Because it's easy. Like, here's a story. So I read a lot of books to my three-year-old. I mean, she is-- she loves reading. There will be times when I'm literally reading a book, but I'm thinking about, I need to do this for work. I need to do this. And one day we were reading a Dr. Seuss book, and there's a line where it's like, the curtain in the Jordan, like, you know, they have weird rhymes. And Coco goes, What's a gerund? And I was like, what? And she's like, what's a gerund? And I had read this book hundreds of times to her, and yet I wasn't like there. Do you know what I mean? Like she's in my lap, I'm reading the pages, and yet I'm just in autopilot because I'm thinking about other things. There was like this massive wake-up call of like, you want it all, but like you could miss it all so easily if you're not where you are. And so it was really funny because she's like, what's a gerund? And I was like, oh my God, I am reading this book and I've read it so many times and I don't even remember this page because I haven't been fully there. So I've really had to work really hard because my brain is such a-- I mean our brains are so powerful, but they're always spinning, right? And it really takes me just as much focus to calm my brain as it does for me to speed it up.

Where do you feel like in your life you need the most support?

Yeah, I mean asking for help is the worst, right? I have a chapter in the book about like, like I had Pride's utter chokehold of like, I want to do it all and be it all and all these things and you know, my husband desired, deeply desired to be a stay-at-home dad and in our struggle to grow our family, I felt like such a Worth failure because he had this vision of like being a stay at home dad and like here I can't carry a pregnancy all the way through. And it felt like I was like dropping the baton because he had supported my entrepreneurial dreams. And now I'm like the one that's like not allowing him to live his dream. And it's crazy because like him and I like we just have to be a team. And so asking for help in that way is like massive and keeping really open communication because like, I am so driven, but I'm also so grounded. And, and trying to, like, live into both of those things requires someone keeping you in check, right?

Sure, sure.

Like, hey, set the phone down. Close that off. Like, you know, but asking for help, too. In the chapter of my book, it was talking about how for years as an entrepreneur, I wanted to just do everything. And I thought, no one can possibly love this the way I do. No one can. possibly do anything the way I do. And how many of us have felt that way?

Yeah.

And in that chapter, this girl named Caitlin had reached out to me two different times, and she supported wedding photographers. And she had reached out and was like, I live in your area. I love your work. I'd love to support you. And basically I said, thanks, but no thanks, both times. And she reached out a third time, and it was on the day, the exact day that we had lost our second pregnancy. and it said, Just checking in. I know you said you're good, but, and she had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. And finally, for like the first time in my life, I like literally said, like, I need help.

Wow.

Because I was like in the fetal position and I had built a business that literally required me to show up or I didn't get paid. And it was like this huge realization of like, yeah, I built a successful business, but if I am not upright and showing up, I'm not, It's not learning.

You're not learning.

Yeah, you're not learning anything. And so the chapter in the book is like how when we accept help and when we like learn how to ask for it, we are so enriched. And there's so many people in our lives that like they love just being the helper. And when I say just being the helper, I mean like being the helper is transforming lives.

Yes.

And it's really interesting because I feel like I've discovered that in business, and this goes for you as well, is like there are very few things that only Lewis can do. You have to be the face and the voice and the vision, right? You are the visionary, but your team are like the missionaries. Like they are the ground workers, the copywriters, the people helping spread the mission. And so for me, it felt like I was white knuckling things. And when I finally released it like opened my hands to what's possible.

What was possible?

Building a massive business and having support and creating systems and inviting people in to do work that they're passionate about that I don't want to do. It's like that whole thing, it's like, yes, I could create the graphic, write the caption, but should I be doing that? And those shoulds have gotten real small over the years.

Because you were so talented, I mean, you were and are so talented at doing so many of the creative and writing, creative services, marketing and social and everything else. The strategy, you could do it all essentially to a high level, you know? And so letting go of something that you do really well, that you know you love and like and comes out the way you like it, without having to tell anyone how to do it or teaching people, it's hard to let go of. It's almost like when you're really good at a lot of things, it's harder for you.

It's like a platter. It's like when you go to old country buffet and all the food spread out and you're like, how do I decide what I want? Feels like that sometimes.

Yeah, but when you start out, you have to learn everything if you don't have the resources. So it's kind of like, a good thing, but then you have to learn how to let it all go quickly.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaking of letting go, this is an interesting topic, I think, a lot of women would love to learn the answer to, the solution to. Yeah. You and your husband, Drew, was like one of the nicest guys. I love hanging out with this guy. He's awesome. You decided you wanted to be building the business and he's gonna be a stay-at-home dad, essentially, right? And support you in other ways of the business as well, but mostly stay home dad. How can women learn to navigate that if they want to be the driven entrepreneur? Can you be a driven entrepreneur woman? Find a husband who's also a driven entrepreneur or does one of you need to have some less drive on their career and business to be able to support if you're trying to have kids? What's worked for you? What doesn't work?

Yeah.

What would you do differently if you started this over again?

Yeah. I honestly wouldn't do anything differently. And I think what is fascinating about this is like, especially in the Midwest, it is still very traditional.

Yes.

I cannot tell you the amount of times.

You're probably on the coast also, but yeah. Yeah, I mean.

But no, I cannot tell you the amount of times that will mention something about our lifestyle and the person will look at Drew and say, what do you do? and then he'll say, oh, I stay home with my daughters. And then they'll look over at me and be like, well, what do you do? And we always have this joke because it's just like, still, it's so inbred in our society of, like, clearly the man must have a really successful career. And I get it. I mean, I've made assumptions as well. What's really fascinating to me is that we've been married 11 years. We've been together since 2008 and we are very different people than we were when we got married. Very different. I mean, you wouldn't recognize that version of me. And it's beautiful because I think we are so resistant to change and we are so afraid to contradict ourselves.

Because you probably never thought you'd have a business or be an entrepreneur. Never.

Right.

Never thought I would do that in 2008.

Any of these things. Like I wanted a corporate office. and power suit and high heels. The visions I held had zero chance of entrepreneurship in them.

And what did he want to do? What was his vision?

Drew has done so many things. He could sell ice to an Eskimo. He did cell phone sales, billboard sales, insurance sales. I mean, he's sold pretty much, you name it, he's sold it. But he never felt fulfilled. It was like always on this quest of fulfillment. And I always just like encouraged it because I wanted him to be happy. And his final job before he retired to be a stay-at-home dad was in wine sales. But really, he was just like a glorified stockist. And in my book, I tell a story about how when I lost that second pregnancy, not only did I feel the grief of the loss, but I felt like I was holding him back from this vision, this dream that he had.

Interesting.

And he could have groveled and grumbled his way through, and he just went out and stocked that wine in that cellar. I think a lot of times people are sitting in these waiting seasons and they're just wasting them. They're angry, they're mad at things aren't happening for them. And I look at him with such admiration of like, he had this bigger vision for his life, but it wasn't happening. It took three years for him to actually be a stay-at-home dad. And he still, he worked so hard and he never complained. So I'm like, great reminder for people. I mean, it's the great resignation right now. One in three people are looking for a new job or quitting their job. That's massive. But while I admire that, I'm also like, are we giving up too soon or are we just angry because things aren't happening? Can we still do the thing while we figure out the next idea? I don't know. I just challenge people on that. But back to your question about the relationship and stuff, something about Drew that used to drive me crazy that I now very much admire is his contentedness. He is so contented.

Because you're driven.

I am driven and ambitious and I sometimes want more and I, you know, I want to go after these things. And he has this beautiful, like this guy would just be so happy to get in a workout, mow the lawn, and give the kids a bath. Like, he truly is just like grounded in that contentedness. And to me that looked like complacency before.

So that's why I drove you crazy.

Drove me nuts. 'Cause I was like, Don't you want more?

So how long did it drive you crazy for?

I mean, when I say it drove me crazy, I just didn't understand it. Like, I was just like, yeah, you're.

Not screaming or anything.

Yeah, but yeah, it's like, what do you want for your life? And like, he was just so happy. And to me, I feared of like, oh, like, are you just not driven? Or like, what is this? And now I'm like, well, what a valuable balance for someone like me. to be reminded of like, oh, this is enough.

What if he was extremely driven and.

He was like-- I think we'd be battling each other for that.

If he was driven and he was like, I'm building this thing and I don't have the time to be at home as much. I'm gonna be gone more. I'm gonna be back after seven every night.

It's so hard for us.

How would you navigate that and what advice would you give to women who are driven, who have married into a driven partner, who doesn't wanna be a stay-at-home dad? How would you navigate that? as a mom.

Yeah, I mean, so something crazy about us is like our oldest is three and a half and like we've never had help with our children. We have just really, it's just been a personal choice of like we're all in on parenting.

Grandparents though, I mean, I mean my.

Mom is the only person that has really like watched her and it's not consistent. So it's like we're just in it.

Right, right.

We've just decided that.

So is it like once a week, once every few weeks? Yeah.

If we're lucky.

A half a day or a few hours.

Yeah. It's like going on a date night. Sure, sure, sure. But we made that choice really, like specifically for us, because our values are just really like to cherish this time, this window of time where they're little is so small, and these years are so important. And so if he was, you know, driven or had this brilliant idea or had these things, you know, honestly, I would feel a responsibility to pass the baton to him because he has supported me in exceptional ways over the years. But I think I'd be reluctant to hand it over. Right. I think it would be really hard. I really think that his role is often overlooked. And so for your listeners that are the stay at home parents or the people who are, you know, giving this season of life, to be at home with their children or to help raise their children, it is the most overlooked and underappreciated job on planet Earth. And it's crazy to me because what I do and what you've watched me do over the last few years is literally only possible because of him and his support.

You have support.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he cooks, he cleans, he does it all.

With a smile.

With a smile.

He's happy about it.

He's happy about it.

He's just a happy guy.

Yeah, he really is. And so, yeah, if both people are driven, I think that there has to be a season where there are handoffs. Like, I always just picture it as like a relay race where it's like, I'm sprinting and you're waiting, and then you're sprinting and I'm waiting. And there has to be conversations. And I think a lot of women have this deep desire for change or growth or evolution or trying something new. But they don't even know how to express it. They don't even know how to say the words like, imagine you and I are together, which, whatever. But like, Louis, I know that I've been this way for you. I know I've supported you in this way for so long. But I have to change. I'm going to change, and I'm inviting you to enter this change with me. It might be uncomfortable. We might have to figure it out. But here's what I really want to do. And I mean, if you're with a partner, that loves you, I would sincerely hope that they support you.

Sure.

But it's crazy. I do think that a lot of relationships benefit when it's like one person's driven and the other one kind of brings them back home to earth. And I think there are seasons of trade off with that.

That's interesting. So when did the thing that drove you crazy about him?

Yeah.

Switch to being like, okay, it doesn't drive me as crazy. And now I'm actually really grateful and appreciative that you're in that energetic space.

Yeah. I mean, even today, he's home with two kids, sending me updates of them going on walks with the wagon and things like that, and him just saying, like, we're good, and you're doing great, and I love you. Like, that's massive to me because I already put enough pressure on myself. So if I was worried, like, I'm gonna go home to, like, a grumbling husband and my house is tore apart and my kids. need a bath, like that would be hard. It doesn't drive me nuts anymore because it's brought me like back to earth in a way of this season that I'm in is busy, but it's not crazy and it's very thoughtfully busy. Like anything I'm doing in my life right now is by choice, not necessity. And I have learned and really like embraced this idea of like I can pump the brakes on certain things. that I know I could soar at, that I know I could crush it in. And I say that with just confidence. I think more women need to be confident. But I'm saying no to so many things because I trust that I can hit the brake and know where the gas pedal is. The gas pedal is not going anywhere. And so for the next few years, things are just going to look a little different for us because I really want to be with my kids.

Yeah.

And so a lot of people, I think, are lacking this. belief in themselves of like what's gotten me this far will carry me forward, but I don't need to believe the lie of like momentum and have that keep me on the hamster wheel. You know what I mean?

Sure. It's interesting because obviously I don't know what it's like to be a woman or in your position, but there's been obviously a movement for decades for women to be more driven and really go after what they want. Career, business, goals, dreams, aspirations. And at the same time, there's probably judgment for going after those things when you have kids and not being there for the kids. So there's this push for women to go be more than what you were told maybe as a child you shouldn't be doing or something, right? Like don't be more, do what you want, chase your dreams, live a career life, have kids later in life, all these different things, wait to get married, whatever it might be. But then doing it, there's probably judgment around it also of like, well, now you have two kids and now you have a responsibility and now you should be at home more and how are you raising them and you're letting him raise them and why aren't you, you know, there's probably this judgment. So how do you navigate the guilt, shame, judgment from others, maybe internally, for living this type of lifestyle?

Yeah. You know, it's crazy because oftentimes, and I say this with respect, I ask myself, would my male counterpoint CEOs have to worry about this or think about this or do this? And I had a massive moment. So I'm here with you, and this is the first time I've been gone from my family in nine months. So it's not like I'm on the road all the time. I'm actually never on the road. And I had this moment two nights ago when my three-year-old woke up in the middle of the night. screaming for me and I had her monitor on my nightstand in the hotel room and for an entire hour I sat on my phone and helped her breathe and I just said, smell the flowers, blow out the candles, smell the flowers, blow out the candles. And I got her back to sleep while I'm here in California. I'm sitting here and I'm like pumping because I'm nursing my kid back home, talking to my three-year-old and and I have to wake up and do multiple things the next day. And I was like, would any of my male CEOs be expected to have a baby monitor on and do all, you know what I mean? And I say that out of, there's so much expectation around women and it's like we're supposed to work like we're not mothers and mother like we don't have careers. And like, that's a problem. And it's fascinating because I don't necessarily feel guilt. I want my daughters to like see me doing my work. And actually, when I first had Coco, and it was like this three-year long journey, and I just like freaking prayed for like this miracle, and here she comes. I never wanted her to see me working. I had a weird thing about it where I was like, I want her to never see me like on my phone or my computer. I just want- why? I just wanted her to never feel like second fiddle, even though she was a baby. But like, I just, wanted her to see, like, Mommy's present. I I feel like there's this huge pressure for presents where it's like, don't blink, you're gonna miss it. You know, and it's like, I literally remember, like, feeding her and, like, looking at her and, like, counting her eyelashes and being like, am I gonna remember this moment? Because it was just like, I know how fleeting this all is. And as she's gotten older, I want her to see me working, and I want her to understand my work, and I want it to. be something that she's proud of. And I want it to paint possibility because the lifestyle she's living is possible because of my work. And so when I was writing my book in the dedication, it says like, To Coco, like, thanks for being my biggest muse and like my greatest inspiration. Also, thank you for sitting next to me and making me play baby shark in the corner of my computer screen while I was writing my book so that we could sit together because she would literally be by me while I was working. I watched Baby Shark a lot of times. And, you know, it's fascinating 'cause as she's starting to like understand more and stuff, obviously her scope of what's normal in terms of a career as a woman is very like enlightened for seeing what I've done and what I continue to do. But it is so much pressure because it's like, you know, no dad is asked like, Oh, you left your baby at home to go do a work trip.

Right.

Like that, it's just a different thing. And even on the way here to your studio, I had a Uber driver. We were in a minivan and we're like talking about family. And I was like, yeah, you know, I have a little one at home. And he was like, oh, how did you leave? And I was like, you don't think it was hard enough? Right. You know, and it was like, I'm like, there have been 10 times on this trip where I've just been like, book me a flight. I'm going home. But I truly believe I'm still working at a pace that is super sustainable. And in a way that it's like, no, I'm home, and when I'm away, you better believe I'm getting stuff done.

Right, and you're gone for a limited time and you go back. I'm curious about money dynamics. I don't think this is talked about enough. Well, I also don't think there's a lot of models out there maybe that I've seen. where the female partner and a male-female dynamic is the breadwinner, is the one earning all the money, majority of the money, 90%, whatever it is, and responsible for most of the money. Two questions here. One, how did you learn to believe you were able to earn more when you kind of had a set amount you were making for so many years? Obviously it was increasing, but to really exponentially grow to abundance financially, that's number one. How did you believe that you could earn more? And what was the deciding factor for unlocking more for you? And then number two, how do you manage the money dynamic in the relationship? And how does that work? How does that communicate? And how do people believe in their worth different stages?

Yeah. So the first part of the question is actually gonna be very different than I think what you're expecting. So I, I remember the day that I hit six figures. And for me, that was a massive goal.

Like, you had six figures in one year. You brought it in. What year was this?

This would have been my third year as a wedding photographer. So 2014.

Okay.

So I built a six-figure photography business in three years flat.

It's big.

It's big.

In the Midwest.

In the Midwest, it was like, basically. physically condensed to six months of shooting. I shot every weekend. I had no time off. I missed weddings. I missed time with my family. And I remember the day that I hit six figures, it felt like crap.

Really?

I was empty. I was burnt out. I remember, like, standing in the shower and being like, why aren't the angels singing? Where is the confetti? Because I thought this would feel different. And what's interesting is, is I was just so tired. Like I was like the bone deep kind of tired. And I had built this business and hit this goal and it felt terrible. And Drew came home from work the next day and I said, I thought this is gonna feel different. I'm not even enjoying the money I'm making because I have no time. and I said, I'm going to propose something that's a little crazy, but I just want to see what you think. And I made this color-coded spreadsheet and he sat down and I said, I was a lot happier when I made $50,000 a year. So I can't do this again. This isn't sustainable. I'm ready to chuck my camera out the window. And I said, Would you support me if I said I want to go back to making $50,000 a year? But I want more time. And it was really weird because I like expected him to kind of be like, you know.

Was he making a lot of money then or was he making some money?

He was 50. I mean, we were both like we were just both the Midwest average. And I thought he was gonna be kind of like, and he looked so relieved. Wow. Like it was just like, yeah, let's do it. We know we can. We know we have. Like if we go back to eating ramen noodles, Great. So I made a super, super clear boundary. And at the time, I had been shooting 30 weddings, and I was like, I am only gonna book 15 next year. I'm gonna say no to everything beyond that. Line is in the sand. I'm not gonna cross it. Because I was a yes girl. I was taught to be a good girl. Say yes. Don't disappoint people. And so the next year, I cut it in half. And something insane happened when I did that, which was Not at all what I expected. But when I got my time back again, when I got margin back, it was when I was creative again and curious again, started listening to podcasts, started taking online courses, started learning other things. I would have never, my eyes would have never been open to any of this world if I would have stayed on the hamster wheel and just kept working more and more and more. And it was crazy because literally I went, I was like, I don't care about money, give me back time. And when I freed up my time, I ended up figuring out ways to unlock how to make more money. And there's also a story in the book inspired by you, because there's a chapter called, what Is yous Enough Point? And you actually probably don't even know this, but when we were in Puerto Rico on one of our trips, you had brought along a photographer. And we were up on the rooftop.

Taking photos. I still have selfie photo from that.

Yes. We were up on the rooftop and he comes over to me and he.

Was like- Did he ask you this question, Taylor? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he goes, you, used to do this, didn't you? And I said, Yep. And he said, How did you get out of it? How did you become the person that's not behind the lens, but the person drinking the champagne on the rooftop watching sunset? Right. And I said, oh, I bet you.

Want me to like, give you like.

A- Some golden ticket, yeah. And I said, you need your time back. And I said, you have to establish what is your enough point? Like, what do you need to feel safety and security? And you need to draw a line in the sand and not book a single shoot or session beyond it. And I told him, I was like, it's not sexy, but like, you need your time to figure out what's next. You don't even have the bandwidth or the energy to think of anything. And I remember, I feel like he was like disappointed in that answer because it was like, no, no, no, there's no magic. But like so many of us are just like, we keep filling up our plates at the buffet and we're so full, it's like we can't even think of the next meal. It's like we're working so hard right now that like how could we have an idea or a vision or do research or curiosity when we're so overwhelmed with what's already in front of us? Yes. And so, you know, it's wild to me because it's like I only unlocked the potential because time was more important than money. And every single time I've done that where I've claimed back time, whether it was, you know, after having my daughter, I blacked out my calendar for a year and said, I'm saying no to everything. I'm not speaking anywhere. I'm not doing anything. And then I unlocked these other ideas. And it's like, you know, it's like every time I've like valued time, I've done that. to answer the second part of the question about, like, what is the dynamic and things? Like, it's really interesting because I just see his teamwork and, like, so to me, it's like, it's ours. Of course, this business is mine. I've built it. You know, I have thoughts around, like, when people get divorced and someone takes half, I'm like, okay, but they didn't necessarily build the thing and things like that, but, like, I worked at Target when we got married. So like he literally has been behind this thing since day one. But it's fascinating because he, there's the business's money and then there's our money. I pay myself from the business. So I still live off of a pretty meager salary because I want to invest in my wealth in different ways and I'm a huge saver and things like that. So we don't We don't really argue and stuff about money because we grew up in families where, you know, at the grocery store we would buy like the off-brand Cheerios because they were cheaper.

Discount coupons.

Suave was the shampoo and, you know. And so the fact that we can live a life now, the part that feels most exciting to me is like when we go to a restaurant and you don't look at the prices.

Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah.

Or we can just buy a meal for anyone.

Yeah. Like that to me is the exciting part of the movie.

Is that crazy?

Crazy.

I remember.

Nothing big and like earth shattering.

I was remembering, I mean, even this morning, I never forget like the things that I went through, but I remember that this morning, I don't know what triggered it, but I was walking out of my building that I'm in here in LA and I was just like, man, 12 years ago this would have been not even possible. To be able to be in a building like this.

Vision, probably.

To be able to be in a building like this in a city like this. paying the amount of rent that I'm paying, I was like, it's crazy what is possible if that's something you want. I'm not saying more needs that. But I just remember thinking that and also not being able to pay for, like going to meals with friends and being like, looking at the check and be like, okay, I only bought this much and here's all I can give. Yes. Where now it's not even just look, you don't have to look at the.

Check, you know, that's like financial freedom to me. I'm at a place in my life where like, Financial freedom is being debt free by choice because my parents really struggled with being in debt and I was very aware of it growing up. And if money can fix something, it's not a problem in my life. And so the tire blows, whatever. We buy a new tire. But if we haven't learned anything these last few years around how valuable our health is, how valuable our happiness is, how life is meant to feel good and not just look good, then we really missed an opportunity. Yeah. So, yeah, it is wild, though, because, I mean, we grew up in a family where, like, Red Lobster was a real big deal. Yeah. And you get no beverages, no dessert.

And you split a meal. Well, you get the beverage, but it's got to be a refill.

Yeah.

And then you just, you keep filling it up to get as much out of that restaurant you could. It's just like Dr. Pepper land.

You just keep filling it up. Yeah. Yeah. Free refills.

Where I went.

Yeah, so it's exciting to like live in a life where it's like, yeah, I can buy the $10 green juice. To me, that feels like success more than any other thing.

Yeah, that's interesting. And so how does the money, the psychology of the money then influence the relationship in a certain way? Now that you have been the one, you both kind of at the similar level, and now it's like, okay, your business has been earning Yeah. An abundance of wealth for the family.

Yeah.

And you're the one who's been creating and generating that, not him. How does that dynamic work?

Yeah, I mean, he has access to everything. He has passwords to everything. It's just this level of trust in a, you know, we have a lot of conversations around it, but they're not like heated where it's just like, here's where we're at. He's on all the investment calls. He's a big part of like figuring out our will, like, So, it's really, I mean, it's really not a thing.

It's not an issue, there's nothing.

No. And it's really, and I think too, because we live in a place of like abundance, like where, and not in like a woo-woo way, but like in a way of like we have more than we ever dreamed possible and we're awake to that. It's just like, there's never pressure on me to perform more or earn more. It's like this beautiful, like, and he's.

Not driven to need more.

See, he's happy with-- We're so content.

He's chill, so it's not like he's driven for more. He's happy you're making this or less. It's not a big deal.

We're very much just at peace in our lives. And I think too, the Midwest keeps us really grounded. I'm really thankful we still live there, which for so many years, so many of my friends would be like, what are you doing? Come to LA, come to New York. What are you doing? It's fascinating when I'm in places like this because they really drain my energy. Just the city energy.

Yeah.

I'm like hearing sirens. I'm like, traffic is like, it takes you 45 minutes to get three miles. Like, it's a different way of living. It's not a wrong way of living. It's just not for me. Like, I prefer being in the woods overlooking a lake and like working wherever my laptop is.

So the idea of that is like this fantasy that maybe One day I would like that. But also going somewhere and having no activity after three days, I'd be like, I'm bored. That's what I would feel this season of life. But maybe one day I'd be like, that's all I want.

You know what I think is interesting though about that? It's like, you know, a lot of people, they'd be like, if I had a million dollars, I'd retire and go to an island. And it's like we know ourselves, we like to make an impact. We like to work, we like to create, and I think a lot of times too the thought of like being in a cabin in the woods freaks people out because they're afraid to be quiet with themselves. It's really easy to drown out your worries, your traumas, when it's just busy, busy, busy. And I think what's really fascinating and like part of why I wrote my book is that During the pandemic, a lot of us had to live up to what we said we would do when time slowed down. I mean, how many times have we said, you know, I'll work out more, I'll eat better, I'll write the book, I'll read the book, all when life slows down. And literally life never slowed down for any of us until the pandemic. And I think a lot of us had to look ourselves in the mirror and be like, am I who I said I'd be? Because now I've been given, and if you were fortunate, you were given the gift of time. If you weren't fortunate, you were out there on the workforce still or scrambling to survive. And so I want to respect that. There are different ends of the pandemic and it looked very different, but there is a vast majority of people who are now not commuting, had more time in the day.

Saving their time from that.

Yeah. Who were they during that time? And could they be still with themselves to face it?

Sure.

And so it's kind of that difference between how are you and how are you really in that it's like you're inviting in that breath of like, who am I really?

Sure, sure. Maybe one day. But I've been looking at houses like a little bit outside of LA, not that far, like 30 minutes.

Yeah.

With like a yard, you know?

Yeah. You kind of like, I mean that's what's so wild to me here. It's just like we want space and privacy and woods and quiet and you let the dog out the back door and the kids run around and play in the streams and stuff.

And I think too it's like, that's like my childhood, you know?

That was my childhood.

That's what I was gonna say.

So, the big back yard and the.

Big tree that you're climbing. Climbing them in the stream all for hours.

Picking up crawfish in the stream. Yeah, of course.

Crawdaddy life.

Yeah, oh yeah.

We would go under the bridge like down the road. That was life. Yeah. It was life, but I guess that.

Could be life again.

One day. One day. I'll get you.

Yeah.

No, I'm sure I have a fantasy of, like, wanting to go back to Ohio sometime and getting a place there. But then I go visit in the winter, and I'm like, I don't miss the winter. Then just don't go in the winter. Right. So six. But then the summer, there's mosquitoes and.

Humidity, and I don't miss sweating all day. Yeah. If you're off the lake Superior, we.

Don'T get that as bad. So we're tons of mosquitoes up there, though, right? Not. We haven't had them back. Really? Because we're in the middle of the lake. Minnesota. There's tons of them, though.

Yeah.

Not in general. Exactly. But anyways, I'm really excited about this book and excited about everything you're up to. I think if people are, and really the podcast, which you've been doing for many years now has been about marketing business and building this business around your lifestyle, which I think is really inspiring. I'm curious for people that aren't entrepreneurs or they haven't done entrepreneurial things because you and I weren't entrepreneurs.

Right.

We kind of became one. For me, I felt like it was out of necessity at the season of my life, even though I didn't feel like I wanted to become one. It was never like a desire really. But I felt like I just was kind of forced into it or there's a necessity to it. For those that maybe feel like they might have something they want to put out there and build but they're scared, should they just go for it? Should they test something first and try to get a few do sales on something, what do you think is the best approach now in today's time?

So I talk a lot about how I sometimes don't necessarily know what I want, but I know what I don't want.

Which is what?

Like when I was in corporate America, I sat down at a table just like this, and my boss said, Here's your five-year plan. They never once asked me, what do you want? What's your next move? Where do you want to go? And I wanted to go to corporate. Like I wanted to move back to Minnesota to be in Minneapolis, but here I was in a store, a glorified HR person that had to bring the garbage to the dumpster at the end of the night wearing red and khaki, which by the way, I hate red and khaki. And I, sometimes I think that people get really lost because they're like, well yeah, if I knew what my passion was, I could go figure out a way to make money, but I don't even know what my passion is. Right? And sometimes I think knowing what you don't want is just as important as knowing what you do want.

Right.

And sometimes it's an easier place to start with. Like, I don't want 10 vacation days a year. I don't want to work weekends and nights. Like, you know, and so it's like trying to figure those things out. But the other piece of that is that we have to like start to be open in saying, I've changed. Right. I'm evolving.

Maybe I wanted this thing for a while, but now I want something different. Yeah.

It's like we get so attached to our identities that the thought of like saying, oh, I'm different, or I know I said I wanted this, but it doesn't feel the way I thought it would, and so I want to pursue something different. It's like there's this notion, Dr. Maya Schenker was on my podcast and she talks about identity foreclosure, and it's like the reason why you hold on to jeans that don't fit you anymore, because you remember how you invested in them, or the reason why you get the degree even though three years into you know that you don't want to do the profession. It's this idea of like, so I gotta make it worth something, but instead then we're wasting our future, right?

And so- you- call it identity closure?

Identity foreclosure. Foreclosure. Like as in I'm foreclosing this piece of me. I am shutting it down because I am no longer who I was. And it's fascinating because even being here with you today, having a book coming out, you're seeing a changed mind.

Yeah, you didn't want to do this at all.

I mean, you are the one person who truly witnessed how much I said I wouldn't do this.

Yeah, you're like, just go launch a course and make a bunch more money and have less stress.

Yeah, I mean, totally. And so it's like we are so afraid of changing and not just changing, which is scary and uncertain, we're afraid of people seeing us change. We're afraid of being like, I know I said this one thing, but I don't believe keep it anymore. And I think that change is like growth and evolution and like we're in this thing called Life School, School of Greatness, Life School, where we are learning and if we're not learning and evolving, like what are we doing? We're missing this opportunity. But I would say for those people who are like, maybe I have this idea or whatever, do it as an experiment. Don't attach money to it. Don't attach deadlines. Look at how I wrote the book. Do it in a way that proves to yourself that one, you're capable of taking action, but in a way that doesn't necessarily paint things as like black and white success and failure, look at everything as an experiment. I'm going to try this thing. All it's going to do is yield a result and that result is going to guide my next step. And I feel like nowadays it's like we have to like define, is this a success or is it a failure? No, no, no, no, no. I've done many things and failed. I've tried many different things and been like, oh, that was not like I did senior portraits one year. So I was like, I can make bank shooting seniors. I hated it.

Yeah.

Did it for one summer. I was like, never again. Was it a failure? No way. It was just a point on the path that was guiding me forward. And so I feel like getting really open to like trying things. And the other part of that is that every single time I've tried something different, it's always been a side hustle. I've not abandoned the nine to five to jump all in on something, I've used the nine to five to fuel the other something. Then when I did courses, I used the courses to fuel the podcast. So when I did the podcast, you know, it's like they all pour into each other and it's like we're so quick to neglect something because it wasn't the perfect fit. When it's like that can propel you forward if you lean on it and it'll give you this ability to not feel the desperation that makes this say yes to the wrong things or do things that were never meant for us.

-Right, absolutely. What was the biggest identity foreclosure you've had in the last few years?

-Getting rid of my Abercrombie jeans from when I was 18. Truly, I remember how expensive those suckers were and how I saved every pretty penny and I told myself someday they'll fit again and guess what? They don't and they're not even in style anymore. But I literally No, I mean that was part of it, but I think for me, moving back home, which is something, so Drew and I met in college in Wisconsin, lived in Wisconsin for over a decade and moved back home to Duluth, Minnesota, and you know, one, I never thought I'd move home. There was just something about it where it was like, ah, the people that are there are still doing the same things. Right.

Different mindset, stuck in the ways or whatever.

Yeah. And I had noticed too a trend, and I'm curious, like when you go back to Ohio, if you like stay where you grew up, like do you kind of revert to your old self?

A little bit, yeah. I really love it though, because yeah, I do, because I'll hang out at the restaurants and I'll like just talk to the people just like I'm there. Yeah. You know, like I'm from there. Yeah.

It was funny though, because I like whenever I would go home, like in college, I'd find myself sleeping on the couch again and watching MTV and eating Ramen noodles. Things that were not a part of who I was, but there was just this comfort, like, this is what I do. I never thought I'd move back home. And I had this vision after our second loss, I hired someone to help me unpack the grief because I skipped denial and went straight to anger after our second loss. because I just was like, what is wrong with me? Why is this happening? You know, I was very public about our first loss and felt like there was purpose there. Yes. The second one, you were like, this.

Is frustration and anger. Yeah.

And I was like, I got the lesson already.

I don't need this again. Right.

And I was like praying to God, like, where is your Redemption song? Because I want to, like, prove how great you are. And now you've let me down again. And, like, I don't even know where to go from here. And I hired this person. to like help me unpack my grief because I was like, I'm angry, I hate my body, I don't know what to do. And she like led me through this exercise and we were like sitting together and we would get on the phone once a week and every time I wanted to like hit ignore, you know, like I was just like, didn't want to do the call. Didn't want to deal with it, yeah. Yeah, because I was just like, I know this is gonna suck. And we're like on the phone and she's like, okay, we're gonna do a little exercise and I want for you to close your eyes and like breathe. And her name is Erin Trillor and she runs a really cool Instagram called Raw Beauty Talks and it's all about like coming back to your body. And so she's like having me breathe and she's like, I want for you to envision like the most vibrant version of yourself. Like you are happy and energized and alive and it didn't just stop at like the vision. She's like, you know, like put your fingers in your finger slots, like step into your feet. Like I want for you to be there and like feel what it feels to like be fully alive and to enjoy your life. And she said this line and it was like a dial on a stereo. I want for you to turn your intuition up and turn the noise of the world down. And I was like envisioning all of this. And in the vision I saw this little girl and pancakes and a Persian rug and And I was wearing jeans and a white linen shirt. And I opened my eyes after the vision, I was like bawling. And I said to her, she goes, you know, what came up for you? And I was like, I think we have to move. And she was like, what do you mean? And I was like, I love the house we're in, but there's this bedroom and it was always gonna be our baby's bedroom. I could get so emotional, but And I'm like, every time I walk by it, I just think about what hasn't happened. And I was like, I just, this vision of like this long table and like this rug and this baby and like I see it. And I was like, I think we've got to move. And that day, because I'm a quick action taker, you're like looking at houses.

You'Re like, literally finding an agent.

I get on Zillow and I type in Duluth, Minnesota. Minnesota and Drew and I had never talked about moving home. Like it was like, maybe we'll move to Minneapolis someday, like, you know, kind of stay. Where were you living at this time? We were in a really small town in Wisconsin called Fort Atkinson and we had great friends and stuff, but we didn't have the support of a family. And I found this house on Zillow and I text my family text thread as a joke and say, maybe this will be the Kutcher Craftsman, like it was this this beautiful home in Minnesota. We had never talked about it. Drew is out on a run and his phone starts blowing up because my.

Family'S like, Move home. Oh my God. He's like, what?

We never talked about this. Yeah. He gets home. He's like, what is going on in your family text thread? Like, it's going crazy. And I was like, Did you see the listing? And he's like, what listing? And I was like, I saw this house in Minnesota. And I thought he would be like, you know, maybe three years from now. And he's like, Oh, we could do that. And I was like, what? And, you know, it's crazy because I didn't necessarily move because of the vision, but it was like the first thing where I was like, you know, where we are is not working for me. The craziest part is this, Louis. We didn't move for like seven, eight months. The day after we moved in, I took a positive pregnancy test.

Wow.

It was little, it was literally, I like always say I'm like, it's like I would like had to move home and like be grounded at home. Like it just felt like this like crazy moment where it was like I'm home and I'm ready and like this is it.

And that next day you moved in. That's crazy.

It's crazy.

When was this?

April 1st of 2017.

Oh my gosh.

Or 2018.

Yeah.

So it was like, it's like right.

After the mastermind that yeah, I was Yeah. Next year.

And it was like, and here's the thing that's so wild about my journey, because one in four women experiences pregnancy loss, is that when you're in it, I mean, it is dark.

I can imagine.

And I often think about, it's like if you were walking through a warehouse and it's just pitch black and you're literally just inching step by step, like you don't know where you're going. and it's like you have a flashlight so you can only see directly in front of you. And once you get through it, it's like somebody turned the lights on and you see where you were and why you were there. And I hate the line, everything happens for a reason, because when you are in it, there is no reason.

There's no reason.

Yeah, there's no reason why that happened. But our three-year waiting season, I can see now. with hindsight was required for me to build a life that supported what I was waiting for.

Really?

When I first was pregnant with my first pregnancy, I was shooting 25 weddings a year. I remember we were in Hawaii and I looked up the due date and I was like, I can't be due then. I have like four more weddings. I'm gonna like have to cancel on these.

Like I literally was like, you were sabotaging your body.

It was like, I didn't know how I would do it. You know what I mean?

Like, your body's like, We're not gonna let you do it then.

Yeah, like it's crazy. And then the second time around was a huge wake-up call because I found out that I had lost the baby, but my body was still pregnant, and I had to show up and shoot a wedding the next day.

Ah, oh my gosh.

And so I had to pretend like I was the happy, you know, the happy wedding photographer. and so when I look at those losses, they were massive teachers in my life. But by the time I was pregnant for the third time, I had built a life where I was able to move and I wasn't tied to anything and I had no clients to answer to and I had built that. And so there's this quote that I heard from a preacher and it's like sometimes the season of waiting is just as important as what it is that we're waiting for.

Mm-.

I think a lot of people find themselves in seasons of waiting and it's really easy to want to like twiddle your thumbs and just sit there, right? Like just wait and wait and wait. But I think we waste it and it's like I worked while I waited and I don't mean like I hustled, I worked towards the life I wanted for when the time came.

Mm-.

And it was so evident when it happened.

That's inspiring.

It's a crazy story and it's one that I don't tell often. And there's a line in my book that says, okay, I know this story is wild, but you don't have to move zip codes to start living more into yourself. One of the things I realized after that vision was my vision was jeans and a white linen shirt. And I looked down and I was wearing sweatpants and a college t-shirt. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I just start putting on the jeans. Maybe I don't have the baby and the pancakes and the Persian rug, but maybe I can just start dressing the way that I would dress if I was vibrant and alive and healthy. Maybe I just take a tiny step of becoming. I can't control the outcome of having a baby, but I can control showing up as a more vibrant version of myself right now.

Absolutely. You said during the season, the dark season.

Yeah.

That it's hard to think about this is all happening for a reason, right? What do you think we can think about during a dark season? If someone deals with anything dark in their life, how should they be processing or thinking about it as opposed to, oh, well maybe this is happening for a reason?

I don't think that, yeah, I agree. I don't think that language is helpful when you're in it, right? Because there are so many tragedies and things that shouldn't or that you shouldn't have to experience. There's this line in my book that talks about grief because we talk about it. And it says that a lot of times people want to move on from grief. You're waiting for life to feel normal again. You're waiting to feel like yourself. And I say grief isn't something that we're meant to move on from. It's something we're meant to move with. We're meant to pick it up. and carry it with us, even if we're inching forward. Like we're getting stronger because of the things we've been through. You're not meant to come out on the other side of grief the same person you were when you went into it, right? Like what a wasted opportunity for tragedy. And in my life, loss has probably been my greatest teacher, right? Like I look at those like lost pregnancies and I'm like, they were like, somehow like looking out for me. And it doesn't mean that it wasn't hard or that I literally think about those babies every single day. But if I wasted that and like didn't use it, that would be a real loss.

That's the tragedy.

That's the tragedy. And I think oftentimes it's like we sit in the loss and we waste that time When we need to just slowly start moving with it and carrying it with us as a changed person. I don't know a single person who has been through anything tragic in their life. I mean, you lost your dad. You are a different person than even a few months ago.

Absolutely.

And so, I believe that we've got to change the notion of, oh, you're going to be back to normal in a month or this expectation. and it's like we've got to invite people to, like, evolve and move forward at their own pace. And I always liken grief, like, for me, and it might be different for you, but for me, I always think about, like, Lake Superior. We. We have a place on Lake Superior, and there are some days where I can stand on the shore and watch, like, how Mighty and Powerful it is and just stand there in awe. And there are some days where it feels like grief makes me feel like I'm literally getting sucked under in. and I can't even stay afloat. And there's a huge difference between the days where you can be like, yeah, that was hard. And I'm observing, I can see the power of that and stuff. And there are days where you're triggered or something and it's like you are sucked under. And we don't give ourselves enough space to have those different types of days. And you don't know when they're gonna land. There will be, I still think about the due dates of my first pregnancies. or I celebrate a kid's birthday and I'm like, my kid should be that old. So it's like if we don't give ourselves a grace of like, some days I'm getting sucked in, I need a life raft, and some days I'm like just standing there being like, wow, that was powerful. I mean it's all a part of the process of grief, you know?

I hear you. It's been coming a ways for me for the last two months too. I mean since my dad passed, it's like, Some days I feel okay and then other days it's like I hear a song and it triggers me and I just feel really sad or vulnerable or grieving.

Yes.

You know, it's a process. It's a journey.

A lifelong process, I think.

Oh man, I'm really excited for this. Your book, How Are youe Really? I want people to check it out at jennakutcher.com or follow you everywhere on social media @jennakutcher. Your podcast as well, the Goal Digger podcast. if you're thinking of entrepreneurship and business and branding and marketing, go listen to that. It's a powerful, powerful podcast. You've got tons of courses and programs and things for people to help who are creators, entrepreneurs online as well. So they can get it all at jennakutcher.com Is there anywhere specifically we should go for the book?

Yeah, you can go to howareyoureallybook.com and we've got a landing page in all the spots you you can grab it. And, you know, as someone who said, I would never do this, I've never worked harder on something in my life, and I've never wanted it to be in the hands of more people. And so I really am excited.

Yeah, a book is a lot. It can be a lot. I mean, no one does a book and just, like, kind of.

Yeah.

Half-hazardly puts it out there.

Yeah.

It's like, it's so much effort and energy and something we really care about, you know, when we want to launch a book. It's interesting. It's probably why a lot of people are resistant of doing it.

Absolutely. I mean, you know what's interesting is like as content creators and digital creators, the fact that you worked on something for two years without revealing it. Crazy.

Crazy. Crazy.

But you know what? It's been such a great lesson for me of like sitting on something, waiting on it, revising it, editing, editing, editing, like where it's like, you know, done is better than perfect in a lot of ways. And it, in a lot of times, it's good to take that imperfect action. And when you do something like this, you're really taught patience in the process. And it's been a really good teacher for me.

And you could also get caught up in never being done.

Yeah. So someone said to me, you also need a deadline. Yeah. There's a reason why it's called a book release, and it's like you're releasing it out into the because you could literally... -Go for years.

-For years.

You could work for 10 years.

-And they never put it out.

-That'S right.

I mean, there's so many things I could change in my previous books still today. I'm like, I could have added this or taken this out. -Could I always do that? -You always could do it. So, it's a yes, and. It's like, okay, how can I give it the patience, the time, the energy, the revisions and also... -Release it. -Release it. Like there's going to be something that could be changed. I mean, very excited to you. HowAreYouReallyBook.com Make sure you guys go check it out. Get a few copies for your friends. All the bonuses and all that stuff. Jenna Kutcher.com this is a question I asked everyone at the end called the Three Truths. So imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away from now. You live as long as you want to live. You get to do all the things you want to do. But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go to another place. The book, podcast, social media content, everything is gone. No one has access to your information anymore.

Okay.

But you get to leave behind three lessons with the world that you've learned. Three truths. What would be those truths for you?

Time is your currency. Everything is temporary. And you'll never regret the time you spend with the people you love.

Yeah, amen to that. I want to acknowledge you, Jenna. It's been a beautiful journey since I've known you. 2017, since I first met you. Yeah.

It's not wild.

25 years, almost six years now. And the way you show up for yourself, the way you show up for your family, for your kids, for your dreams, for your health, everything. You make decisions that aren't popular sometimes. You do things that are against the norm, but you do them your way. And you do them in a way that works for you, that makes you feel peace and healthy and loved. And so I think that's really beautiful that you're giving and creating and serving serving people and also reminding yourself to make sure you serve yourself in that process and not lose yourself in that process. So I really acknowledge you. Very proud of you.

Thank you.

Very grateful for you and your friendship and everything.

Thank you for having me on this show. And you know, it's, it really is a full circle moment of like, Drew and I often talk about how being a part of your mastermind changed my life in so many ways. And so thank you for being that leader. But thank you for being my friend too.

Of course, yeah. I'm happy. I'm always wanting to facilitate, you know, facilitate experiences for people. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Doing what you love, being with the people you love, but doing it in a way that feels good and doesn't just look good.

Jana Kutcher, appreciate you.

Thank you.

You're the best.

The amount of hours that go towards my business versus my personal, it's definitely business. Sure. But I'm so not conflicted on what is my priority that I would burn my company to the ground in a heartbeat if my husband needed me to. Sure, sure. I would, if he said, hey look, we're starting to fracture, I would immediately stop doing my interviews. I would tell.