Investment Expert: The THREE KEYS To Making More MONEY! | Bill Perkins

I think a lot of people look at money as the goal, and it's not even close to the goal, right? The goal is a fulfilling life.

What do you think is the biggest psychological crime someone can make when it comes to their money?

People fear running out of money instead of fear of wasting their life. I think people worry about embarrassment, what other people think, judgment about their lifestyle or them failing in the future, etc. As opposed to worrying about like, I don't want to waste this ride. You don't retire on money, you retire on memories.

Wow.

That's your retirement. And so I'm like, am I investing enough in experiences right now for my retirement?

You've been around a ton of wealthy individuals.

Yeah.

Billionaires, mega billionaires. And you've also been around a lot of broke people. What would you say are the three keys to really making more money and also being fulfilled with the money you have?

Okay, so I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring hiring Bill Perkins in the house. My man. Good to see you, brother.

Great to see you.

Great to see you, man. For those that don't know you, you have done amazing things in business and financially over your life. You have, as a hedge fund manager, trading mostly natural gas, you've brought in over 2.2 billion in profits for your businesses. You've personally brought in over $600 million to you individually over the years. And you've had an incredible experience unlocking financial freedom for yourself and showing others how to do that as well. And a lot of people struggle around the idea of money, the idea of how do I make money? Am I deserving of more money? Is money good? Is it bad? What do I do with my money? Do I save it for a rainy day? Do I keep it all until I retire when I'm old and can't move? Do I give my money to my kids? Do I give it to charity? What do people do with their money? You've had an inside look around some of the richest people in the world, some of the biggest celebrities in the world, massive personalities, and you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, and you've also experienced the good, the bad, and the ugly around what money can do for people. Now, I'm curious, where did your fascination with wanting to make more money come from originally? And what do you believe was the true unlock for you from not having a certain amount of money to it becoming an abundance that started to come your way? What was that moment where you started to see it unfold in a lock in a bigger way?

I think it was when I was younger, when I didn't have any money and I was out trying to conquer things and I was having, you know, lots of what is it all for? What does it all mean? I was a screen clerk, which is basically a peon, assistant, assistant peon. And when you're in Manhattan, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a millionaire, right? Very rich people. But when I was younger, I was like, oh, they're old now. They were younger than the age I am right now. I'm 54, right?

But when you're growing up, I was.

Growing up, I was like, oh, gosh, what are they going to do with the money? Buy another car and drive their kids to school? Like, what is use of it?

Right?

For me, it was all about the girls and the parties and stuff like that. things that a 21 year old or 22 year old would think. But the more I thought about it and books I read like youe Money or youe Life, which was a very influential book for me, the money wasn't the goal. The life was the goal. The fulfillment was the goal. And so once I realized- I remember.

Money was the tool.

Yes. Money is it's like hammers and saws, right? You can keep buying hammers and saws, you can go to the hardware store, but the hardware store, the tools that you get out of there, that's not the goal. The goal is the house and the things you build. And so money is the tool to build your life, to give you the experiences you want with your friends, or hedonistic, or charitable. It doesn't matter the type of experience. Money is just one of those tools in your toolkit. And so once I started to think about that, that I wanted to have an adventurous life, a life with scars, a life with mistakes, a life with risks, you know, money had its place, right? In, in building the life that I wanted. And so I think that's when I started to unlock kind of my fearlessness, my risk taking. I'll go anywhere to, to try and acquire this tool to build the life I want. But really, it's about building the life I want and, you know, trying to figure out what kind of life I want, you know, like, you know, a lot of times I think I'm building the life I want, but it was really what was advertised to me. You know, you're young, you're impressionable. It's like, oh, I want my life to look like a rap video, or I want my life to look like this, right? And then I do it. I'm just like, oh, I don't, this is not really me. This is not really fulfilling to me. And so I've had many journeys about what will fulfill me and what the money's for, but ultimately it's just one variable out of what I would call the three variables, your wealth, your health, and your time. Like, how do I allocate those resources?

Right.

Over my over my life to get the most fulfilling life. And so I think a lot of people look at money as the goal and it's not even close to the goal.

Right.

The goal is a fulfilling life.

And so is there a calculation or a formula on how to develop a fulfilling life where money is a part of that equation?

Yeah, I wouldn't say there's like a formula like do this multiplied by that X, Y, Z, but there are mental models. Right. Like how to think about it. Like what the first unlock is like what tools, you know, I'm in this organic spacesuit, right? And I have a finite time here on Earth. What tools are at my disposal, right? Well, I got my health, right? But this spacesuit is going to decay and die, right? So that's how much time I got my health. And there are things I can do. There's many great books, many great authors and things you can do to maintain this spacesuit as long as you can. and be healthy, right? There's time and time management and mainly the time to the grave, but also the time in between seasons of your life, right? Because as you start to pick out the experiences you want to have in your life, they kind of obviate other experiences. I use very crass examples, like the time to be going out to the clubs and dancing with glow sticks is probably before you get married and have kids. And so if in your life over the totality of your life, you want to have that experience, it probably goes into a time bucket pre-marriage, right? Not after marriage in order for you to get the maximum fulfillment score. And then the spending of money, right? Like when I go to work, I try my best to attribute what am I working for, right? What is the money for?

What do you think about when you're doing that, Tim?

Well, I think about one, survival and the lifestyle that I have, the things that I normally think I'm going to be doing for now until the day I die. But I think about the activities, how they will change as my life changes, right?

I mean, give me some examples in the last five years to where it'll be different five years from now.

The going to the club in close six days, they're fading. I still go. I like to be young, but they're not as like every weekend, boy, where we going? Like, what's going on? Right. So those dollars are spent. you know, they're pretty much useless, right? And I like hiking, I like traveling to different places and seeing different cultures. And so I do a lot of like physical activity while I'm there. You know, when I used to go, when I visited Paris and I was there for the summer, I used to take a leisure learning class and I'd put my books on my back and I'd walk to class about three or four miles and then walk around the city with the students, Etc. I cannot do that enjoyably today. Why not?

My back, my body's deteriorating.

I can do six miles, like I can do it, but it's not enjoyable. It's not that I can't do it, it's not as enjoyable, it's not as fulfilling to me. Yeah. And so a trip to Paris, walking around eight or nine miles, my knees start hurting, a little swelling, et cetera, I don't get the same exact fulfillment that I did some time ago. We could just draw the line out. That's gonna shrink and shrink and shrink. Right. And so I know that trips that involve that type of activity, I need to be spending that money today, not in the future. Right. Right. And so these are the type of things, you know, I think about like, okay, the physically demanding trips and fulfilling things now, I need to be doing those now, getting those experiences under my belt now and not be pushing them out until I'm 66, 72, 81 if I make it that far.

Right.

And so I think a lot of people will look at that, you know, on autopilot are not thinking about these things. They think they're going to retire one day and then their life is going to look like a carnival commercial.

And they have perfect health when they're 60.

No.

Yeah.

No.

Well, I mean, even perfect health when you're 60 is a lot different than perfect health when you're 40, 50, 20, 30. Right. And so as your health declines naturally, the activities that you can do or that you will like change. And so you don't need money for those experiences in the future. You need them now. I imagine if I'm anything like my parents and my ancestors, I'm gonna enjoy just visiting grandkids, talking about the old days, etc. And so what I'm trying to do is create what I call memory dividends. Having an experience now not only do you get enjoyment from the experience when you do it, you get a piece of that enjoyment every time you bring it up. Every time you discuss it, like I went on this trip and this happened and we got stopped by the security guard and we had to sleep overnight and we met this other couple and it was great and we had a good time and you tell that story and that creates another experience which also gives you joy. And so when you invest in experience, not only do you get the joy of that experience and the fulfillment experience, but you get what I call the memory dividend every time you access that experience through your memories.

Right.

And much like investing in a bank or a stock that pays dividends, investing in experience pays a dividend. And so these mental models, right? Like, you know, it's a lot to remember, right? Like, oh, what do I do? I do an experience now. I just come with a formula, formulaic way of thinking, not a formula of like, okay, how do I think about the totality of my life? What experiences belong where? And what will be the most fulfilling.

For so if someone's in their mid 20s, early 30s, right? And they're in this kind of 10-year range, how can they start thinking about this? Maybe they've just said, you know what? I'm just hustling. I'm going after money right now or a career just to make money that I'm spending at all. I don't really have much in savings yet, but I know I should be investing. But how can they start to think about the formula for their life in terms of maximum enjoyment or fulfillment? these memory dividends, which makes a lot of sense to me without being broke the entire time.

Right.

So for each person in each profession, right? Like there are certain situations where people have pensions, guaranteed jobs, et cetera, and career progression, right? Where their salary is going to be going up and they're also going to have their own health, right? Like they're very healthy, not that healthy, et cetera. And what they're trying to do is thinking about, okay, what experiences in the 20 to 25 bucket or 25 to 35 or whatever, any way you want to break it up. What experiences belong now, okay, that I should be doing now and gifting the memory dividends to my future self.

Interesting.

Or what things am I doing now that are robbing my future self from stability, you know, and causing worry, right? And so there was a period in my life when I was in my 20s, I was a seesaw, right? I was like saving too much. I was borrowing from my poor self to give to my future richer self, which did not make any sense, right? And then I went from the I'm going to party and going crazy and I'm spending every single nickel I made, right? To creating future instability for myself by not saving. And now, so for each person, their career path, their earnings potential, et cetera, that will be different. But the thing is to get off autopilot and be thinking about it.

Right.

And maybe you're fumbling your way through it for a year or two. You're like, okay, I'm not sure what it's going to be, but I'm paying.

Attention to what I want right now in the future. Right. So people will have other experts like a financial planner. A lot of times a financial planner is about let's maximize the money. It'd be like that's not the ultimate goal. The goal is to maximize fulfillment. And so they will keep you safe and maybe you'll save a certain amount of money, but you're the driver. you are responsible for your own life. And so if you want to be intentional and get the most out of your entire life and each time period, you have to think about, okay, is backpacking now through Europe? Is this the period to be backpacking through Europe or is it 20, 30 years from now? Is this a trip or an experience or, you know, a charitable thing that I need to be doing now or is this something that I need to be doing later in my life? Right? Just that thought process. by ordering your life properly will help you have a more fulfilling life.

Yes. What do you think is the biggest psychological crime someone can make when it comes to their money?

I think the biggest psychological crime is people fear running out of money instead of fear of wasting their life. And so, you know, they have this fear of embarrassment, of like, I'm gonna run out of money and I'm gonna be broke or I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z instead of feeling like I am wasting my life. I have for the, we were talking about the 20 to 30 bucket. I'll just, you know, this is it. This is the only period I'll be 20 to 30. There are certain activities, experiences that are meant for this bucket, right? People are marketing services and products to you. You, you know that they're there, right? Like, I don't want to do them. Like, go have fun, right? But, but, and you only get one shot, one go around, you know? And so, and they're worried about, you know, in the 30-40 so I think people worry about embarrassment, what other people think, judgment about their lifestyle or them failing in the future, Etc. As opposed to worrying about, like, I don't want to waste this ride. And it's not even the ride for the whole life, every single period of your life. So if you're a parent, with small children, not wasting that period. With teenagers, I know a lot of us would like to waste that period and just be like, -Do we get to be in a spirit? -But that period, and then, eventually, you do not have kids in the house anymore. That is a different period in your life. There are different activities and different opportunities that go. I often say, life is like Tetris. If you were in heaven, let us assume this heaven, and you are about to come down to Earth as a human being, and God is like, Here's the bucket of experiences. And when I use experience, I mean choices, right? I mean it in the broadest sense, hedonistic, charitable, whatever. And you're like, oh, the infinite bucket of experiences. I want to go hiking, I want to go to tennis a thousand times, I want to have sex a jillion times, I want to do all these things. You're throwing them into the experience bucket. I'm going to start a business, I'm going to go to school, blah, blah, blah. And it's full. And God goes, great, you can have all those, you just have to get the order right. so life is like Tetris. You know, you remember the game Tetris? So you had to get the shapes right. Life is that way. Like, if you don't have the experiences at the right time, they run to interfere with each other, or your ability to do them disappears. So you can have all the money in the world, right? When I was in St. Petersburg, Russia, this is before the war, beautiful city. And one of the things about Europe is like things they allow you to do would be completely illegal in the United States. It's not like safety laws or whatever. So you can climb these steps, walk around the churches, and then walk around the balcony. It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's like, wow, I can't believe we still get to do this. And it was like 115 steps. I remember it was an odd number. I think it might have been 111. But, and there were like six or eight tour buses of senior citizens, you know, coming to go see the museum and this church. Not a single one climbed those steps. Not a single one. So their trip to St. Petersburg was entirely different than my St. Petersburg trip. Their experience, the information they got to process, the things they got to see was totally different. I'm not saying it wasn't enjoyable, but perhaps at a city that allows you to roam around and do these things and go on cliffs and overlook type of things and you enjoy it, perhaps that trip should have been taken much earlier.

Wow.

And so, you know, that's an example of getting the order right.

Yes. Getting the order right and making sure you're using your money at the time where you're able to use it the most effectively.

Yes. It's getting the most out of that tool. It's getting the most out of that tool.

Right. The tool of money.

Your ability to convert your money into meaningful, fulfilling experiences decays over time. So, you know, your brain reaches mental maturity around 28. Your body is physical maturity around 33. So if, by and large, if you were in the best shape of your life at 33, that is the top. Then you go into Plateau and decline. I will never, ever, unless, you know, new technology, gene therapy or whatever, but be in better shape than I could have been. at 33, right?

It's over.

It doesn't mean you can't be in still great shape. No, no, no, no.

You're in great shape. But I'm just saying my ability to do certain things.

Like, listen, I can get. I was really.

You're not playing college football anymore. No, no, no, no. Last year I was like one in, like, great shape. I got down to, like, a 9% body fat. My cardio VO2 was over. But my, my lazy 28 year old self will smoke myself in a ring. Really? Like, smoke myself, right? Like, he just doesn't need to warm up. No, no, no, no. Just go. Not stretching anything, right? Like, right. And then on top of that, if I race them, I'm sore afterwards. Like my knees hurt. You need to recover for a week. Yeah, the back is kind of, you know, all those things, right?

He's just hopping around, you know, no.

Sleep, able to do whatever. Yeah. He's just like that guy. He's so lucky. He just doesn't know how good he has it.

Right.

You know? And so, you know, I think about these things and, you know, sometimes they're very small things. Like I was at a place where my friends were going to go wakeboarding at my 50th birthday. I was, you know, I'm generally a lazy guy. I'm laying on the beach. I'm like, I don't want to go. You guys go, whatever. And then I thought about it. I said, when am I ever going to have a chance to go wakeboarding in the future? We're here, we're in the Caribbean. There's a wakeboard boat there. When's the next time there's going to be a wakeboard boat? Maybe two years from now, three years from now. And I thought about my back, you know, once your cartilage starts going, it just keeps going. I thought, this may be the last time I'm able to go wakeboarding and enjoy it and I'm gonna switch to another physical activity. So I got my lazy butt off the beach and said, I'm coming. I did a jump. I landed a jump. I was happy, you know, it surfed and that was the last time I will ever go wakeboarding because of the speed of wakeboarding. And it's so now I wake surf, which is a lot slower speed and I can do it later on in my life. But my wakeboarding days are gone forever.

Wow.

Had I not done it at that time, it would have been years and years before, but I'm wakeboarding. So I got all the enjoyment, all the memory devins of that trip, hanging out with my friends, et cetera. But that's it. The wake border bill is dead.

But now you have that memory dividend. Yes, that's true. That you can tell this story to me and you can think about that story for the rest of your life.

Yes, and I can also use it as a teaching tool, right? So for people who are still, you know, got all their cartilage, all their cartilage, No broken bones, no broken bones or anything like that. Like, hey, you know, the time is coming where whatever activity it is, it will be the last time for you.

Yes.

And you'll be moving on to other activities, right? So I'm a wake surfer, you know, maybe golf, whatever.

Maybe you're just a boater eventually.

Yeah, exactly.

Your book has really taken off in the last few years since it came out. It's called Die with Zero, getting all you can from your money and your life. And I want people to get a few copies of this because I think there's been this misconception of like, make as much money as you can and save it for as long as you can so that you can enjoy the rest of your life when you retire at 64 or 72 or whatever the retirement age is, right? This kind of concept, save, save, save, invest, which I'm a big fan of saving and investing.

Yes.

So that it will pay me dividends now and in the future and so I won't stress or have worry about money. But I think people take it to extremes sometimes. Correct. And they don't enjoy their time and they get the bucket list and the time bucketing backwards.

Correct.

And so why should we be thinking about die with zero? And the idea of having nothing when you die for some people seems selfish. You know, what about leaving money for my kids or for charities or Am I going to leave my family with nothing? What does that say about me and my legacy? So what is your thoughts around these 17 questions I just asked around.

How.

We should be thinking about money for retirement, how we should be thinking about money for leaving it behind, how we should be thinking about legacy and how does having money in the bank when you die connect to legacy? what's your thoughts on that?

So I'm going to go first, which is on everybody's mind. And one of the number one questions I get is like, what about the kids? And there's a chapter called what About the Kids? And it's about charity and kids. And so the same laws of physics that govern your body govern your kid's body. Okay? So they're going to grow. Their brains are going to eventually mature. Trust me, parents, their brains will eventually mature.

How many kids do you have?

I have two. 16 to 19. And their bodies will reach physical maturity and then they will plateau and start to decline. So if your body is unable to convert the money into meaningful experiences as you age, right? Like your physical ability to either enjoy them or do them goes down, the same is true for your kids. So actually giving a smaller amount to your kids at an earlier age will be more impactful and more fulfilling than waiting to you kick the bucket and they're 66 or 65 or 60. Right. And two-thirds or more of their life has gone by.

Right.

So what I advocate for is that be intentional. You want to give your life, your kids fulfillment, a fulfilling life and choices. So whatever you're going to give them, you know, some people like, I'm not giving my kids anything. They got to make it. I had to make it. They had to make it. But whatever you're going to give them, give it to them at the right time. Timing is important. And so I advocate, you know, somewhere between 25 and 33, right? Different, some kids are very mentally mature and they can handle money when they're younger and, and, and, you know, it's going to be fine and some are a little bit later in life. Right? But at a certain point, it's their life, right? You've done your best to prepare them to navigate the world. They're their own person. If they want to light it on fire, let them light them on fire. If they want to do this, you know, and they're industrious, et cetera, let them do that. But it's their in venture. And so, and that money has the most impact when you give it to them then. And also your legacy, you know, people like, I'm working hard for my kids, you know, they're 60, I'm working hard for your kids. Well, part of the legacy and the fulfillment from your kids is spending time with you. Moments for you, not you going to work, you with them. Memories with them. So in some situations, in a perverse way, you going to work to make more money to give your kids when you're die is actually taking away from the fulfillment and diminishing your legacy.

Interesting.

So we have to be really intentional and think about What are we trying to do when our kids, we're giving our kids money and six-year-olds are not kids. You know what I mean? So I think one of the most asinine things we do or the most autopilot, not living with intention things we do is wait till we die to transfer assets to our kids.

Interesting.

Right.

And that's the same thing with charity. Charity is now. People are hurting now, dying, starving, whatever the issue is that speaks to you, it is now. So, I give kind of examples as like, imagine the people that donated to funds for polio said, I'm just going to wait till I die. And then more kids have polio. There's people, and I just use that as an example. And even if it's into education, the returns on education are a human being educated right now. far exceeds any market return that you can make. So if you are a charitable person and you identify capital that you're not going to use before you die now.

Right. So how do you think about this in your own life then with terms of, you know, you have two teenage kids. How do you make sure that you raise kids to not rely on you for money and you're not giving them too much personally, but you also want to maximize for fulfillment and memories. And you, you know, you have a.

So you're going on a sub question is, do you give your kids money or not? Yes. And that there's books on this. Like, give them, there's books like, don't give them anything.

And there's books like, give them everything. How do you navigate that? Because it's all, you know, you've got an amazing lifestyle, you've got properties, you've got boats, you got planes, you got.

You know, you put them in the back of the plane.

They've got a coach and you're in first class. They take a Greyhound across the country. Like, how do you do it where.

They'Re psychologically set up for success, but.

Also so rich in memories and experiences with you.

So by me, quote unquote, making it, right? I've made my life easier and therefore their lives are easier. And they're in a bubble. And as much as I try and, you know, the exposure, I try and get them outside the bubble. But the main thing I wanted to do is raise strong, independent women who are kind, who can navigate the world. The best I can hope for, right? And as far, you know, the way I look at it is that I have an amount that I want to give them, right? That is for them to do as they please when they're mature enough to get it. So it's not my money. It's in a trust. It's separate because if Bill Perkins goes out gambling in some poker game, you know what I mean? Lose it, they're not gonna get my, it's not my money. You know what I mean? It's their money. So I don't have to worry about the risk to me, et cetera, they're taking care of. but they don't get to use it. It's not like a 16 year old's running around in a Ferrari or something like that. It turns over to them, to their control when they're between 28 and 33. I think mine is between 28 and 30. Yeah.

And so does it unlock every month a certain amount or is it a lump sum?

It's, there's, there's, you know, there's all, we're getting into state and, and trust planning, but, you know, there's a board that has for health support maintenance. They Trust not me, other people can be like, okay, you're going to grad school, we'll give you a little bit of a Sure, I'll give you a little bit of a scholarship, whatever. But all of it unlocks to them at 30. Got it, okay. Because I've lived my life. So I say to my friends, like, me, I live my life. It's their life now. If I'm gonna give it to them, if it's a real gift, it's theirs. Right. When they're able to handle it, you know, I'll give it to them. And they're like, well, what if they can't handle it? It's too late. It's not like at 40, it's gonna help them anymore, and their health is declining, right? So I'm just like, let them have the adventure they want to have with the resources that I'm willing to give them. So I don't tell people, hey, you have to give your kids money or not. I just tell them the when.

Yeah. The when.

The when. The when is very, very important.

Yeah.

And it's your responsibility, I guess, as a parent, to educate, teach, train them to be kind, you know, thoughtful, human.

Exactly.

And hopefully they're able to make those decisions by then. And that's in some way your responsibility as well, to oversee that up until 30 or whatever that time.

Well, I mean, it's, it's, at a certain point, your job is done. Right. And the raise, they're their own person.

They're adults.

They're not gonna listen to you anymore. They're not gonna listen to you anymore anyway, right?

Like, you're on the advisory committee.

Yes. I'm already, I think I'm already on the advisory committee. They call you when they need money. Exactly. And then you're like, advisory committee. And, and you hopefully have done a good job, but your job, that part of trying to control your kids. Okay. is done. You mold through advice from that point on. And so a gift is a gift. And, and my gift is set and it's done. If I want to, if I thought, if I come into a windfall and hit the lottery and I feel like, hey, I want to give more to them, I can add to it. But I'm living intentionally like, hey, this is when my, they're going to reach Peak mental maturity, mental Acuity and physical maturity. This is where they're going to hit Plateau, Etc. This is when it's going to have the most impact on our life.

Right? Right.

It's gonna have less impact on their life because they can't even convert it into the experiences they want later on their life. Right? And so it's their adventure, right? Their adventure to have. I don't want to control people from the grave.

Yes.

Right. Here are the rules. I set forth you must do this. I'm just like, what kind of human being does that? Like, he tries to control another human being with money.

Right?

I I want them like, you've done your training, have the adventure you want to have. Right. And so that's how I think about that. Now, the having the zero part is, you know, one of the 17 questions.

Yes.

It's, is if I spend, I have only, the only thing I have is my life energy, and that's the time I have on planet.

Right.

The, on this planet, the, the minutes, Etc. So if I spend that time going to work, let's say I'm just digging holes. I'm digging holes and they gave me this thing called money. It could be Chuck E. Cheese's token, it could be anything. They give me this thing called money and then I just hold it and then I die with it. I've essentially wasted my time digging ditches, right? I've worked for no reward, right? We can see on his face that that's asinine, right? Like, no, you don't want to go do something that you normally wouldn't do with all the other activities you can do on this planet, right? almost infinite choices. We don't want to go do that for no reward. So we're going to work for something. And a lot of us are going to work, some of it, we enjoy it, we enjoy what we're doing, we enjoy teaching people. But that reward, when we slice up the reward part, that is for us to use as a tool in our tool bucket to maximize our fulfillment. Fulfillment, nobody goes into the hardware. So let me get some hammers and saws and then throws them away.

Right?

Well, I guess there are some people buy hammers and saws, put them in the garage and never use them.

Right?

But, but that's the, that's the, that's what happens with a lot of people is they just save, save, save, save, never use it. Right? And so I'm trying to stop them from doing that and say, Hey, let's think about how we can spend and use all your assets, your wealth, your health and your time or focusing on your wealth. Before you die to get maximum fulfillment and the maximum ride. Yes.

Right?

And so one of the axioms is spend all your money down to zero as close as you can before you die.

Right?

So you do not waste your life working for no reward.

Right.

So in your 20s, you may not have a ton of excess money. So you might need to save a little bit in your 20s, but also experience life and have adventures. but not be broke and in survival mode constantly, right?

There's different things you're able to do, right? Like you're able to go, let's go hiking with my friends, let's go biking. There's a lot of free things. You can do a lot of free things. A lot of free things, a lot.

Of raging, a lot of, you know.

Super saver tickets, back of the bus, house parties, Z pop at the concert. Those are some of the greatest times of my life. Backpacking. Exactly. Camping. Exactly. But you're also saving away for security, right? the one experience we all want and, you know, people push back is like, the experience is survival. We want to be able to survive. Like, if you're out of the game, okay, then there's no fulfillment. Right. So we want to be able to survive and we need to calculate our survival number. Like, we got to pay rent, we got feed ourselves, we got to do these things, right? And we're saving for some sort of calamity where I'm unemployed for a couple of weeks. But a lot of times we're saving for I want to go on this trip. I want to buy this house. I like this car. I want to get the girl the ring.

I.

You know what I mean? I want to take my parents on a trip or dinner, whatever it is. I like to attach the money to activities so they're not just working for some abstract Chuck E. Cheese token that we never cash in.

Right?

You've been to Chuck E. Cheese, so. So.

So. And.

And so it's like, okay, great idea, you know? So I I first like to think about, like, okay, when we're saving for retirement, we're talking about things. It's like, what's your survival number? Right? Because we're working for survival, and then everything else is choices. Everything else is about the grand adventure.

Yep.

Right.

And it's like, okay, what adventures go where in our life? What timeline? Where do they go?

Right?

And what Adventures will I really be doing? in my 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Right now, they're the Jack LaLanes or.

Like, I'm sure you remember Jack LaLaine?

Yeah, the juicer or the. No, no, there used to be a.

Guy when I was growing up, an old guy. The health guy.

The health guy. The health guy. No, the Jack juicer. Yeah, he would have like, he would be like seven years old. Yeah, I'm sure he was raging in clubs and spending money on fire as older.

But like, most of us, you know.

Will be more, have more, more relaxed life later in life. Sedentary life. Yeah. Right. More relaxed lives that, that aren't really high in consumption. And the data shows this, like, if you look at the data, even adjusting for health care costs, because I get, what about health care? Even adjusting for health care costs, seniors spend less money as they age. In aggregate.

Now, you said.

I get asked this question a lot, and I'm going to speculate, they can't.

They can't, they're sitting around all day.

They can't spend the money. They can't, they don't travel, they can't. They don't have, they don't have the energy. They don't have the attitude.

Or the ability.

Both.

Right. It's a pain again, I don't wanna go flying. My mom's that way. We had to basically kidnap her to go to Scotland for her 80th birthday. She loved it. It was great, but it was a kidnapping. It takes a whole year to build up the energy. Energy to get her to the plane. She's like, I don't wanna go on a plane.

I gotta sit.

It's cramped and I'm like it, I'm feeling whatever. I mean, she had the best time in Scotland. Right, right. But they just don't. You get comfortable with your life. Yeah, I tell a story in the book, like I was like, you know, maybe an insensitive gift or a not very thoughtful gift. Like, remember, I'm young and I'm on autopilot. I had made some money, and I was a broker, and I was like, oh, my grandmother's birthday. I would want money. She's been giving me money since I was kid. Like, a dollar for each age, right? I was like, I gave her. I was like, here you go. Here's 10 grand. You know, I gave her 10 grand for her birthday, and she bought me a sweater, and that was it. I owe my daughter a cheese later on. But that was it. I thought she was going to call up her friends. We're going to Vegas, we're going, whatever, with some adventure. And I was just like, I'm an idiot. I was a complete idiot. I just realized, oh wow, the money was almost useless to her. Right? It was useful as a tool to give me a sweater that I probably didn't need. You know what I mean? About to move to Texas, right? It's not sweater weather, right?

What is the most meaningful thing that people who are more seasoned in life want that money can't give them?

Wow. Well, I would say that money, you can't give it to them. It can be a totally enhancing experience. I think what they want is senior people want these relationships, time with their kids, family, loved ones, these adventures. You know, I used to say to people, you rarely see people go to movies alone. We love shared experience. We're wired to connect, right? And so, you know, people have different tribes, different friends, different, Etc. But they love taking their whole family on an adventure. Now, it could just be a picnic, right? And, and a small one, like at all levels, you can do that, but you can make it more fun and, and people talking about it and having, Etc. So I you know, money doesn't give them that. It's their personal connections, but you can make them better. Yes.

Right.

You can, you can make them more fulfilling. You can make it easier for some of your, your family members. Like, I live so far away, I can't afford to go. Well, it's okay. I'll fly you. Right, right. Or I'll pay for the bus ticket.

Yes.

Or I'll drive and come pick you up. Right. These are the things I think that.

Money can't particularly give them, but can enhance the experience. Right. When you you were talking about this generational fear of our grandparents from the Great Depression to our parents to all these different fears that were passed down generationally or conditions around money, beliefs around money, save it for a rainy day, retire with money, all these different things, which seemed to make sense back then when maybe it wasn't as abundant or they were in scarcity or in survival mode. So maybe that made sense for a period of time. for them, but it seems like there's more money available now than ever before. There's more printed physically available than ever before.

That's for sure.

And there's more ways to make money than ever before. There's more side hustles, side gigs, creative endeavors that people can do to make money. What was the actual moment where you broke the generational conditioning around scarcity and unlocked it into abundance for you? Where it converted into money Entering your hands in your bank account.

I think it's weird because I was a screen clerk. I think I was making like $16,000 a year, you know, and then driving a limo at night to make ends meet. And my roommate at the time was a waiter and he was making like $77,000 a year. And I was thinking, I can always wait tables. But I wasn't in it for the $16,000, right? I was in it for a career path to really make a bunch of money. and so that's a kind of weird thing. And I was just kind of like, if I lose my ego, which I had no ego back then. I was driving a limo at night. I was like, if I lose my ego, I can always get a job. I can always get a job. I'm not going to be completely busted, right? I might be poor, and I've been broke before, and I'm okay with that. And I've had great times, right? Like, you know, I'm good friends. We go off, do whatever. But it gave me kind of this. freedom. Like, there's this safety net of, like, I will be able to find something, right? And I remember one of the scms I worked for this guy named Mark, and he was like, I used to be a garbage driver. I know if this. They shut this place down. I can. I can always drive a garbage truck. You know what I mean? Like, so, you know, if I lose my ego about, like, I'm too proud to do this job, right? then I can always go work. You know, there's way more jobs and way more opportunities. And I don't have the fear of, like, moving to another place to get the job or going to another place, Etc. You know, it's painful for a lot of people. People have the fear of going into a new environment and moving, which I think limits them to only local opportunities. But for me, I was like, I'll go anywhere for the opportunity. I'll go to Siberia. You know, I was one of those dumb, young, ambitious people that were like, put me on the moon, I will trade.

Right.

And so like when I got the chance, I was in New York City, I left, didn't know anybody, had a mattress in an empty room and I'll be there, you know, sir, yes sir, let's go.

Right?

And so, and if that didn't work out, so what?

Right.

So then adventure, I want the scars. Like I want, Like a life with no mistakes to me is an uninteresting life. An unfulfilling life actually. Yeah. Like you haven't touched your limits. You don't know what your limits are 'cause you never failed.

Yeah.

If everything's always working out and you prevail, it's like, well, you never touched your limits. You never really sent this thing. Until you run so hard where you throw up and you're about to pass out, which, you know, I did in college when they used to make you run, you know, back and forth.

You don't know your limits, right?

Like you don't know when you're struggling with the weights, right? me physically, but like also emotionally, like until you've said I love you first and you've gone through the break and you've done everything you can for the relationship. Like you just don't know, like this is as much as I can give in a relationship. Yeah, right? This is as much as I can do. This is as far as I can go figuring out this business. I need to bring in help or partners or whatever, you know, like all those things. And so, wanting a fulfilling ride is the goal. right? Literally the money. The money is only a tool to get the fulfillment. Now, I have fancy fulfillment things, right? And they do it. But, and I am learning how to use that tool to drive my fulfillment. But I'm also learning, hey, from other professionals and other verticals in a health Lake, how do I optimize my health? There's time management books. How do I optimize my time? And then even in the web bucket, there's like, how do I get the better deal to get the same experience and the same fulfillment points when I go to Greece? Now, don't do that hotel, get the Airbnb, it'll be nicer and you actually have more fulfillment, it'll be cheaper and you have more money for the trip to Japan, right? So I'm just saying like at the macro level, you know, this is how these things interact and this is how you should be thinking about the arc of your life, but then you can.

Go into each vertical and sub-optimize it. Yes, absolutely. And so, but what was that psychological moment for you where you realized, oh, I'm actually good at making money?

Oh, wow.

And not like, okay, I'm making 16 grand a year and I'm working at nights, you know, driving a limo. But actually, I'm breaking through the generational conditioning that I live in scarcity to now I live in abundance or have the potential to live in abundance. How did you learn that you were worthy and deserving of more money? How did you learn that you were capable of generating Wealth.

Oh, wow. I don't know if I learned it or I just believed it and it became. Really? So I always tell people, like, I think one of my advantages was that I was delusional. And so they were like, what do you mean? I was like, like, I believed I can do it. And that drove my decisions. Now, that didn't mean I was going to be successful. I could easily believe that I was done it and just never have done it, right? Tried a hundred times.

Failed and broken, yeah.

But the fact that I had that delusion and that belief that I can do it, that you could throw me in the desert and I'd have a fighting chance, I'd figure it out, I'd drink my own pee, I'd do whatever.

You know what I mean?

Right, right. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes, I'm just gonna do it. Like, I had this delusion that I could do it. And because of that... the drink of the pee guy. That's great. Sometimes you gotta drink your pee if you're in the desert and you're dying of thirst, you know? Rehydrate. But, you know, eat the bugs, right? That delusion sent me the course to try and to learn. And so when I was learning, it wasn't like I couldn't learn this or I couldn't learn options trading or whatever. It's like, I can do this. I can do this because I had this delusion. And so I think the belief is powerful.

It's very, very powerful. How do you get that belief? Most people don't believe in themselves enough to believe they're deserving and worthy of money, of wealth, of abundance. How did you get to believe you are deserving?

Okay, so I had a very topsy turvy relationship with my dad. He came from a different generation, hard boiled, right? He was pre-civil rights. Dreams were squashed. It was openly squashed and legally squashed, right? Like in this. And I was born post civil rights. Okay. And so one of the things, and I don't want to turn this into a whole racial story, but one of the advantages of growing up in Jersey City being Black is that people in that period, people talk about you. You're accused of this. Why are you people like this? You know, you're inferior. You can't do this or whatever. And so what you develop okay? The good side of that is you don't f*ck what people think. You've been trained. You know what's true about you and your people and your relatives or whatever. We're not bad people. We're not criminals. I'm not whatever. I'm not this. I'm not inferior. I'm not whatever. You just learned to brush that all off, right? And my dad was a badass. And he was like, you can do whatever. Look what all the adversity we have to deal with and we overcome, right? And so that not giving a what people think and only listening to your dreams is a superpower forged in adversity, right? And so, and so like, I just, you just, so, you know, a lot of people walk around like, I don't care what you think or whatever, and they're thinking this about whatever, I'm just like, I don't give, I don't give, and like, I don't care. That's their problem, right? Like, and everybody cares a little bit, right?

Yeah.

To the extent that people's thoughts will interfere with my priorities, I care more. Right. But in general, on the not giving a scale, I'm on the further scale because I grew up in a period where, you know, I was born in 69.

Right.

There's, you know, racial attitudes going on. We're just coming out of the 60s. Right. You know, being, having that. And then just having to deal with that prepares you, you know, for this period of like, I'm not afraid to look like a fool. You guys thought I was a fool. You know, you thought I was full at birth on skin color. You thought I was inferior at birth on skin color. You thought this about me on, you know, on skin color. So you just don't give a.

Right?

And so my dad and the trainings of being a minority in a city during that time period, prepared me for like, who cares? I'm already a fool. Might as well try.

But some people who maybe have grown up in a lot of the similar adversities or worse or a little bit less adversities, they might take that adversity and say, well, I don't have the skills. I'm never going to be able to do this. And they stay stuck in that. They don't say, because of this adversity, I don't care, and I'm gonna go for it. They say, because of this adversity, This is who I am.

I think, you know, I think it's, I think the victim story is marketed to people. And if you don't take that victim story, I think they would have the same experience as me.

Really?

But I don't wanna go too deep in it, but I would just say.

That.

I wasn't conscious, right? You just felt it. You know, you just had pride.

Right?

You're the underdog pride and it came. And I guess some people, they might have, you know, I was lucky. I had a father and a mother, right? Who, you know, two college educated parents, my dad via scholarship and my mom later on in life. And so if anybody was designed to succeed, it was me. But there were, you know, when I was led on my own and it's time for me to do it on my own or, you know, who moves from New York City to Texas to go, you know, like the things, the decisions I made were kind of this, like, it can be done. You know, when I, when I had not that much experience, but I knew I can recruit people to build in to do this solar development project that in, in the Nevada desert. Right. And then sold it to Capital Dynamics.

Right.

And, and, and made my friends and myself a good chunk of change. and also putting solar on the grid. Like, it's just this belief that you can figure it out and you can do it. And so I guess that there are some people who get dealt the clouds of inferiority and it stunts them.

Yes.

And I would hope that somebody somewhere along the line flips it for them, flips it for them and said, this is a badge of honor, man. Like, you got nothing to lose, right?

Right, right.

You got nothing to lose. You got no whatever. anybody expects anything from you.

So when you.

No pressure.

No pressure. No pressure.

This could be your greatest gift. This could be your greatest gift. And so for me, I think it, you know, my greatest gift was, like, not giving and my willingness to look like a fool.

Yeah.

Like, I'm just winging life like everybody else.

Right?

Like, I'm winging it.

Right.

And so. And I'm trying to figure things out, and I'm. I wrote this book for me, and then I figured if I. If I can. you know, save my own life, like not waste my own life. And maybe it will be useful to other people. Yes. Right. But occasionally I get somehow stuck on autopilot.

Yeah.

And I need to go back in the book or my wife needs to remind me, like, hey, hey, hey, you know, let's think this through. Let's get off autopilot. Let's get off autopilot. Let's get off autopilot. Let you know, you're doing these things, you're playing speed chess on life. Like how is this the most fulfilling thing for you to be doing in your life right now?

Now.

It's not. I'm deleting them. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, things like that, right? There's. There's more things that are deeper than that. But I think that early experience and my dad gave me the confidence, seeing him do it in much harder circumstances.

Right.

Much deeper clouds of inferiority, much more hard knock, like, to look at that. And then other people in life, like, I'm like, you know, I go places. and I get inspired by people who make it. You know, a lot of people, you know, they, oh, well, they had this help or they look for the thing that was the one piece of help, but they still overcame a lot. I'm like, wow, I'm pretty lazy. Like, if that person could do it, and look at all the advantages I have, you know, born in the United States of America, growing economy and growing population. jobs, technology. I just was born in such a great era. Like, I'm like, I can ride this wave. I could surf this wave. I can do it.

Yeah.

I'm gonna surf this wave of life and. And navigate it the way I want to go, you know? And so I just had this delusional.

Belief, and it happened to work out. That's amazing. You've been around a ton of wealthy individuals.

Yeah.

Billionaires, Mega billionaires. And you've also been around a lot of broke people who are in a ton of debt or people who've lost all their money. you've seen the both sides of the spectrum. From your perspective at this stage, what would you say are the three keys to really making more money and also being fulfilled with the money you have?

Okay, so three keys to making more money. I would have to say that on the earning part, there's a lot of people who speak better to making more money. But I will speak just more in terms of like psychology.

Yes.

And belief is this, this belief that you can and you're entitled. And so when you think you can, you read the book, you read the business book, you read the so and so, you make the attempt, Etc. I, you know, a lot of people will just sit in the stands. They won't go off the bat.

Yeah.

They won't take the chance. Not only will you take the swing, you'll strike out and you'll do it again and you do it again and you do it again. I was just talking with somebody on Twitter and like, oh yeah, and I break up. I was like, Isn't it great that you're bankrupt and now you can still go out and earn and take another swing? Lose the ego attachment, get the f*** out there and let's rip it again. Yeah. You know? And so that's what it is in America, right? Like there's so many people have failure stories and like Steve Jobs got fired and rehired, you know? Like things like that, right? Like all these learnings that you get like, wow, you went to school, this is expensive school, but you know, let's go. You got subject matter expertise. What's the next thing? What's the next dream on your plate?

Yeah.

And so when you believe you can, you start to take actions that actually develop your ability to do it.

Yes.

And then, and then, so that, that is one. The, the, the, we've already been talking about it. You have to, you know, this is a saying, like, never tell your dreams to your parents that you want to do it, because even though they love you, they saw you as a teenager and you didn't take out the garbage, right? So they were always like, oh, you sure you really want to do that? Is this a safe job? Like, you have such a good thing going on. Like, you can just get a job at the post office or whatever. Like, they are afraid for you, right? To go on your adventure. They want to protect you. And they also seen you in your clown years, right? Not the new bad bald you, right? And so. And then also, you know, As much as your friends and maybe some of your peer group may love you or not, a lot of people behave out of fear. They don't wanna look like an idiot. They had a great idea. They had a thing they wanna do and they don't do it.

They tried it and it failed or they don't wanna do it again. Or they don't do it for it, yeah.

So your success exposes their cowardice.

Right.

Say it again.

Your success exposes their cowardice. So when you go out and you fail, they're like, See, I'm right not to go do that. See what he did? He went out and failed. He told them he shouldn't have done that. That was crazy. Why did he do that? So they feel comfortable in their safe life and their cowardice. They didn't go live their dreams or take the risk or whatever. But if you go succeed, they're like, I'm a coward. Like I had a chance to do, I could have done this. I could have been in the work. I could have grinded for a year or two years or no reward, live then eat ramen and been successful, right? So I always say people like success, but they love a failure.

Right?

They love a failure because it reaffirms that they're doing the right thing and you're not cowards. And so be very, very careful about your mindset that you're getting from other people. Mm.

Right?

And success is not just doing the thing and making it. Success is living a fulfilled life. It is about the ride. You know, a lot of people like say, oh, it's easy for you to say when, listen, I've gone boat, like, busted twice. Like, I've been fired, I've been whatever, and it's been. That has been great.

That has been great.

Losing your money, getting fired, getting fired, getting humiliated, people talking behind your back, you know what I mean? Oh, he's a clown or he can't do this. It's part of it. It's like I learned who my friends were and who weren't. I know who my supporters weren't and who weren't. I learned about myself. Do I care or do I not care? What things really upset me? What mistakes did I, what did I mistakes? Where did I get lazy? Where did I get off track on vision? you know, it's about that. It was great. And then, you know, here I am on this side of the coin, but, like, still wouldn't have been great. You know, I did. I tried to do some huge project in Central America. Went busto, vaporized 10 million dollars. Learned a lot. Like, years, time, meetings, whatever, you know, and. And it's gone. I tried to do an importation project in California, learned. all about permitting in California, the interest groups, et cetera. Gone. The ride, you know? And it wasn't like now we have a bunch of money. It was like, that was a very significant...

It was all your money.

It was like, oh, we might have to come back on staff here, Mr. Perkins. So, you know. And so I think it's like, really be careful about how you speak to yourself and the people you keep around you and who you share your dreams with.

Wow, that's interesting. And the third thing?

Oh man, third thing. The third thing, consistency.

Yeah.

Take it seriously. I hear a lot of people, like they'll have an idea and they're about to go into the execution phase. So ideas are like a dime a dozen, right? There's no market for ideas that I think Paul Graham says, right? You can't just go, I'm gonna sell you this idea. No, you can sell the business, you can sell the execution. So like 90 something percent of it. is the execution. And they go in the execution phase and they don't take it seriously. You know, this is your dream, this is your life. You know, people take video games, simple things, you know, party things more seriously than they'll take their dreams.

Right?

And so if your dream is this business or this idea or take some way of making money, And it could just be like showing up for work on time, right? It doesn't have to be this like, I'm starting this entrepreneurial thing. It just be like, I want to be the best person being consistent and taking it seriously. Taking it very seriously.

I think more money comes to you when you show the universe how consistent you are with what you care about.

Use all your resources as if your life depends on it. And the funny thing is, these are the hours of your life. So your life does depend on it. This is your life. this is the time period and some people don't take, you know, I'll see guys come in with pitches or things. I'm like, did you do this? Did you use this resource? Did you whatever? It's not like they couldn't thought of it. It's not like they couldn't have done it. They just didn't because they didn't take it seriously enough, you know? So use all your resources at your disposal to drive your fulfillment. If your fulfillment is this job and making money or this idea, use all your resources at your disposal to make it happen and take it seriously. And so I think a lot of people are or flip it with their own dreams. I don't know why. And I think it comes down to the, I've done it before too. I've done it in school. It's one of those things where like you have this fear that you can't do well so you don't try your best. You know what I mean? Like they like, oh, I'm afraid of failing, so I'm just not gonna do my best. And so when I fail, I can be like, oh, I didn't really try that hard. You know what I mean? I wasn't really trying to lift it, you know, like that much. I wasn't really stretched out or whatever. And so you're like, you have this excuse that you didn't try hard. so that's why you failed. And so it makes your ego feel good. And I've done that before and I think other people do it too. I don't know if these are the three keys. I don't know what you could take out of that, but I think it's something that people can take home with and see if that applies to them.

I love this. I'm so excited for people to read this. I've got a few final questions for you, but die with zero. It's a new approach to looking at your life and maximizing your wealth, your health, and your time. getting all you can from your money and your life by Bill Perkins. Make sure you guys get a few copies of this. I think it's got over 3,000 five star reviews on Amazon. So get a copy there, share with your friends. I think there's going to be different insights in here that will give you a perspective on your money and your life that you haven't been thinking about. This is some of it we've covered, but there's a lot more in this book. So make sure to check it out. This is a question I asked everyone towards the end. It's called the three truths. Oh, wow. Just ask you three keys to making more money, but this three truths. I'd like for you to go into your hypothetical future self as your last day on Earth. And whether there's technological advances and you live till 200 or it's whatever, it's your last day in this world. Your spacesuit goes into outer space for the rest of time. And you've gotten to experience your life exactly the way you want from this moment until then. you have a excess of memory dividends, adventures, the love. You wrote it to it until it all fell off.

I wrote it well.

But for whatever reason on this last day, everything you've ever created has to go with you. So this book, this conversation, any creation of content in the future, no one has access to it. But you get to leave behind three final lessons, and this is your last day. From all the experiences you've had from the first memory to the last memory dividend, you get to share three final.

Things in this- why don't you ask a softball question?

Make it easy for me.

Are you giving me a softball here? Yeah, go ahead.

So anyway- I call this the three truths.

Okay, got you.

What would be those three truths for you on the final day?

Wow. No matter what the question, love is the answer. Wow. Just on the spot here with these three truths. Always do your best. And I learned that from, there's a book called the Four Agreements. my number one recommended book. But always do your best. And, and your best is different on different days. But if you do your best, you know, whenever I look back and somebody says, what do you regret? A lot of people say, no regrets. I'm like, anytime I have a regret, it's always related to not doing my best. So if I got angry and I yelled at somebody, I didn't do my best. I you're not gonna control myself. If I got fired or whatever, I didn't do my best. I gotta figure that out. I could have showed up on time or whatever, right? Relationships that once arrived, I really didn't do my best. And so always do your best. Oh my gosh.

The.

Final last truth I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get technical here on this one. It's gonna be weird. It's gonna come out of nowhere. It's gonna come out of nowhere. Life is movement. Life is experience. Life is essentially processing information. And the more movement and the more information you process, the more life you will have. Thus, the more fulfillment you can potentially have. So get out there and move.

That's beautiful, man. I love this. Again, die with zero. I want you guys to get a few copies of the book. You can go to die with zero book.com, You go to Amazon, all the different bookstores. You're also on Twitter, BP22, I believe, is your Twitter.

If you want that my hot crazy takes, I don't recommend it, but if.

You want to interact with me, you've got a lot of cool stuff on there on Twitter, Instagram as well, Bill Perkins.

Although it sounds like your social media will be deleted at some point.

But it should be raging, enjoying life, exploring the world. But if people have questions for you, they can go there and connect with you over on social media and message you. and definitely read the book first before you have other questions. So get the book, read it, dive in, and have a conversation with a friend of yours about this book. And just, this isn't to make anyone wrong or make you wrong in your life, but to just question, am I doing things to maximize my memories, my fulfillment, my health, my time, my relationships? Am I doing the things that my future self will be proud of me doing right now? And just to ask yourself, and this will give you some of those perspectives.

Yeah, the book is essentially a fulfillment maximizer. That's what I'm solving for. Here's these other variables. We can optimize for those, but we're really driving net fulfillment.

It's net fulfillment over net worth. Yeah, I love that, man. I want to acknowledge you, Bill, before the final question for your journey and where you're at currently, because I know you've lived a pretty wild life and you've been around a lot of wild individuals. and you have, it seems to me, gotten to a place where you've found a lot of peace, harmony and fulfillment internally. And I think that's hard for people with a lot of money, even though I think a lot of people think people with a lot of money are fulfilled and find peace.

Agree with you.

But not all of them are. And you've been around a lot of billionaires who have more stress than when they didn't have money sometimes. Maybe some of them have figured it out, but not all and I'm not saying you have it all figured out, but you're on a journey of peace and harmony, which is beautiful to watch.

So I acknowledge you for being on that journey. Yeah, I mean, it's work. I'm doing my best. I'm always trying to work on myself, right? I have coaches, I have influences, I read books, and I'm here to make mistakes, you know, and just realize that.

You know, you have to forgive yourself. You're human.

Absolutely. Yes. What's your contract, by the way?

Do you remember?

I'm a loving, forgiving, Caring Man.

Yes, you are. I love it, man.

Oh, man, you pulled out my contract. Out of nowhere. Do you remember? I know loving, forgiving, caring man.

That's good, man.

That's amazing.

For those in the underground who know what the contract is, fours to you guys. The final question for you. What's your definition of greatness? Wow.

Oh, wow, wow. I've known. This is, this is a, you ask the softballs, don't you? So, so I, you know, I've looked at what you, you have in your, in your book, and it's like your special mission, right, in your time, and I would kind of agree with that. I think it's a greatness is a lived in integrity with yourself, with your values, right? When I see something great, it's like, you know, they may not have much, whatever, but it was a life lived in integrity with their values and their pursuits and their dreams. And so if, if when I'm being great, I'm in integrity, all my, you know, my priority is in balance. I'm not skimming, I'm doing my best. I'm in integrity. When I'm out of integrity, I'm not so great. I'm just not so great. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? I'm just not, I'm just that guy. I'm like, oh, breakdown, I've had a breakdown. So, and so, you know, and we see that manifest that in different people. People, you know, they're about forgiveness, you know, I think about Nelson Mandela living in a prison for most of his life and coming out like, how's this guy so happy and forgiving, you know, somebody who believes in a cause and like, I'm, this is a cause I fight for. you know, women who didn't get recognition in earlier times but believed in what they were doing and diligently lived through it. They believed in the cause or whatever they were working on, whether it be physics or women's rights or whatever.

You.

Know, a life and integrity. Why don't people do the stuff that they want to do? I think it's because they can't even hear their own voice. It's the only voice they ears, everyone else's, they can, like, theirs is barely a whisper. And so I think, like, if I had to give myself a goal of what my story or journey or trajectory has been, it's been to make my voice the loudest.