Karamo Brown: "I Don’t Use the Term ‘Coming Out’!”

I don't use the term coming out. I think it's antiquated, as I don't think that's actually the act. I think we should be inspiring people to understand that the act actually is letting people in. Because when you come out to someone, you're giving them the power to accept or deny you, versus when you're letting someone in, you're saying, this is my choice. I'm empowered to let you in or.

To tell you that you don't deserve to be in. Gravel Brow.

TV personality, author and actor. One of the stars of the Netflix show Queer Eye. Everybody give it up for Karamo Brown. What's up, man? How you doing? We all remember a time that we needed someone just to respect us. I say to myself, it's different. I remember being there, and I remember going to my family and expressing a part of who I am and wanting them just to respect me. And so when my son says anything to me, I go back to that place in myself and say, well, you know what? Doesn't mean I'm not gonna have conversations, but I'm damn sure going to make sure that you feel respected because I know what it felt like. to not be respected. That's just what it is to be a human being. We heard that from early on. Do unto others as you want done unto you. Because this is such a time in our history where we see anti-LGBTQI legislation, we see rampant hate, we see what people are doing, I just wonder, if that was your own child or if that was you, would you want that?

Very excited to have you here because you have been leading the way and really in culture and humanity and helping people live more authentically in their lives through your story, through your message, through your own talk show, and through, again, the way you live your life. So again, I want to thank you for being here and thank you for living authentically.

I appreciate that. Can I share with everybody what I just told you?

Sure, go ahead.

I'm a big fan and I spent the last year I spent every morning waking up to you, which for me, as someone who grew up in a Christian household where we woke up and we read the Bible, to have somebody that you want to replace that sort of like the sort of connection that I got through feeling connected to spirituality with your words and your guest. Powerful. So I'm so happy to be here.

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'm curious, you know, one of the things I appreciate about you is your authenticity. and I'm curious, when do you think that became very important for you to live an authentic life and to speak into this for others? And also, was there ever a time you felt like you were very inauthentic in your life?

Yeah, ages five to, it is five to 23, pretty much inauthentic, inauthentic all the entire time.

Really?

It was a survival mechanism because I started to identify as gay. early on, and I grew up in a immigrant household. So I'm first generation American. My family is Jamaican and Cuban. There is there was a lot of homophobia back then. We grew, you know, I went to predominantly white schools, even though we were poor. My father used to do the sort of like redlining where he'd find the apartment complex that was zoned to the right school, the the the the richest school that had the most funding, the whitest school, so that we could have sort of a better education, he thought. And so that just caused me to have, like, complete identity crisis. When you're coming into school with your lunches being curry goat and not peanut butter jelly sandwiches, you learn very quickly you gotta figure out how to make people like you. And my authentic self at that time was not cool enough to people, and I wasn't strong enough to be my authentic self.

Really?

I had nicknames all through high school, through elementary school. It started off with, unfortunately, racist teachers who...

The teachers would call you nicknames.

They would immediately. They would find, they would say it was difficult to even try my name. So within the first day of any class, it'd be, Camero, Cucú, Cacá. You know what? I'm just gonna call you KK. I'm just gonna call you KB. I'm just gonna call you, at one point I was called Jason, and it's not a lie. Anybody who went to high school with me from freshman year, to junior year might know me as Jason. So, what's that? I'm not joking. And don't ask me where Jason came from. You know what I mean? I also was known as junior, and I'm not a junior. Like, my father's name is not Karamo. I'm not a junior. But it was just because everyone felt that some other version of me was the better version.

Really?

And I was not confident enough to tell them that the version of myself, just who I was, was enough. and I didn't have language to know that. And I think most people, as you know, still deal with that where somebody in your life tells you some part of your authentic version is not enough. And it is your job to have to understand that you have to fight against that. You have to practice behavior so that you believe it, and you have to let them know because that was the piece that was for me that was missing. Because as I started to find myself, I was like, But I still got all this yo, know that I am enough and that you don't get to give me a nickname. You don't get to tell me that my lunch is wrong. You don't get to tell me that my authentic self is not enough. And so after that, it was on and popping because at that point I.

Was like, I have nothing to lose now. Right. Was there someone that inspired you to step into that authenticity and knowing that you were enough? Was there a moment? Was there a breakdown where you said.

I'm gonna own who I am fully, all parts of me? I would say that it was hip hop culture in the 2000s which might sound weird because, I mean, hip hop culture in those early 2000s wasn't so embracing of the LGBT community. But for me, you know, young 23 me, who was putting on a do-rag and a 4X white t-shirt, felt very confident in who I was because of watching these hip hop artists ascend to success, be confident. I found an identity in that. I found strength in that and I walked through this world with those sort of like, you know, like, this is who I am. And so it wasn't a person, but it was these individuals that were like, these are the communities I'm coming from. And even though they weren't my communities necessarily, I was inspired by it because hip hop just made me feel like I was invincible. And when you feel invincible, you then can start to think, well then, if nothing can touch me, then your words don't matter. And what you are saying about me doesn't matter because who I am is going to walk through this world and be enough and be successful. Right.

Wow.

Yeah.

What affected you more? Words that people said.

Looks, you know.

Energy that they brought to you, just disapprovals of certain things about you. What was the thing that that affected you or hurt you more?

It was definitely not the disapproval because you've never been an immigrant household. Like, this was like a running rampant. You know what I mean?

It was like, never a problem.

Yeah, it was like, no, no, a here. You know, what are you doing with your life? You know, like, so I was like, like, kind of immune to disapproval from people. I think it was. I think it was probably the words. I I turned 6'2 in the ninth grade and got a full beard by 10th grade. Wow. So I was kind of fine, you know, like, back then, I was kind of. I was kind of killing it. You know what I mean? Like, so I had this sort of, like, weird confidence from that. I'm joking. Like, that's objective, but. I had a confidence in that. So like people didn't really look at me or, you know, in those ways, it was more so like as I would just start to share my truth, I was very keenly aware of their responses. And I've always been a great listener. When I was growing up, my grandma used to tell me, you got two ears, one mouth, you're supposed to be doing one of those double time. And I still believe that today. I do more listening and asking a lot more questions than I do talking. And so because I was so keenly aware to what people were saying, I would analyze it and let it seep in.

Really?

Oh my God.

So those words would affect you deeply.

I still like, you never had this. Were you just in the shower or somewhere and all of a sudden you cringe? I call them cringe moments. And all of a sudden you're thinking about something that happened 10 years ago and you're like, Did I do that? Oh my gosh, why didn't I say something? And you just, You start to play a moment in your life that should be out of your memory, but it just pops up. Has it ever happened to you?

Of course.

Yeah, happens to me.

And like, what was the thing that you remembered the most? That was the cringe-worthy moments, the memories that affected you years later that still impacted you 10, 20 years after the fact.

I think a lot of it is like when I didn't stand up for myself, like the moments that I knew or I didn't stand up for someone else who was similar to me in identity or expression. and I saw that I had the power in that moment that I could have said something to change it and I didn't, or I allowed someone to say something to me and I laughed it off. Like those are the moments when I cringe a lot and I'm more aware because like, you know, people say stuff and you're like, if you're one out of a thousand in a corporate environment, a school environment, and your family and someone says a joke and everyone else finds it funny and you have to kind of like, yeah, you know, kind of laugh with it. Those moments now for me, I cringe on them and they'll pop up like the weirdest times and I'll just be like, I can't believe I let that, I can't believe I let that ride. I can't believe I let that slide. But I've gotten through those days because I practice a lot more patience and grace with myself. Yeah, self-compassion and self-love. Yeah, I practice those things constantly.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the self-love scale, if you were to assess yourself, where would you be? 10 being you love and accept yourself fully for who you are today. Yeah. One being you hate yourself completely and have no self-respect and no love. Where would you be in that scale in this moment?

Right now? Yeah.

Today.

I feel cute today. Like, you know, my eyebrows is all fleek. I was talking about a cute nine right now. Nine and a half. You know what I mean? I wouldn't say 10 because one of my biggest things, I always believe that we have to keep growing. And so, like, I never want to hit the peak. I think growth is always great. But one of the things that you've heard me say that I consistently try to teach people is that you have to practice. No one told me when I was, no one told me my entire life until I figured it out that you have to practice your self-esteem. The same way you get up in the morning and you walk into the mirror and you want to tear yourself apart immediately. You're like, oh, this isn't fit. This doesn't look cute. Oh, I don't look great right here. And look at my skin here. We practice saying negative things, but how often do we practice saying positive things? And so I practice my self-esteem consistently. So when I get a question of like, how much do you love yourself right now? It's always going to be higher because I have now become an expert at practicing my self-esteem. But it doesn't mean that there's days that I need a little bit more practice. I need a little bit more effort in that practice, just like any you know, you could play against a team and you could beat every single one on the sports team. And then you get to that one that's like, hold on, we know what it is to challenge you. And that's the day I gotta practice more. And those environments happen. Like today, I haven't had any, but there's been moments that I walk into, you know, networks and they'll say some BS. And I'm like, okay, okay. If I let what you say to me get to me, it's going to destroy me. So right now I have to practice in the moment of saying, positive things about myself.

You have a high level of self-esteem, but for those that are struggling with self-belief, self-confidence, and believing they're worthy of more great things, what are a couple key things that they could do on a daily basis to practice believing in themselves more and actually feeling it and owning it? Because it's one thing to say an affirmation in the mirror to yourself, but if you're like, well, I'm actually don't believe this. How do you turn that into belief?

Yeah, so one of the things that I don't like them affirmations really too much, I promise you. I don't give a lot of affirmations out. People always like, Give me an affirmation, I can see in the morning, and I'm like, Girl, I got one for you. And the reason being is because affirmations remind me of those, you know, those Live Love Play things you get from Marshalls. Yeah. And like, those are cute to be on your wall. You'll look at it once, you'll feel like, oh, happy by it, and then you forget it. and that's usually the way affirmations work, in my opinion. So for me, the first step always, if you're on that journey to find that self-love, is we got to first figure out when did you lose it? What was the cause? Like, I don't know any person who has ever solved a problem in their life without going back and figuring out what the first number meant and what the second number meant or what the first word meant or what the second word meant. Like, you have to figure out where that started because that's going to be the key for you because I understood quickly that the first time that I didn't feel enough about myself came from my home life.

Really?

It wasn't from outside of my home, it was in my home. I realized that having family members who told me would give me these contradicting messages of that I was, I can do it, you know, that, you know, like you're gonna succeed, you're gonna be better than us, but at the same time criticize and critique so much about who I was that I started to lose a belief. And I realized that mixed messaging was part of what my self-esteem issue was because I allowed myself to be in companies or around in company of people that sent me mixed messages. And until I figured out that that was the area that started my journey of not loving who I was, I then was able to identify. And then when I got, I then started to say, okay, now that I know that's where it started, and that took some time to get there. So anybody listening and watching, you should reflect first. Reflection, reflection.

You're going to see, okay, where did it start from?

And it started from seeing the criticism. And it takes time. It took a long time for me to be able to identify that because sometimes, like when you have your family trauma, your whatever trauma that you have dealt with that has led you to this place, I think we don't realize that if it took, if you're 30, 25, 50, and that trauma happened a long time ago and you haven't identified it, it's going to take you a long time to backtrack.

So be patient with yourself. If it was more recent trauma, you can handle it.

Yeah, I know that.

Yeah, it's true. It must still might take you time.

Exactly. But be patient with yourself. And so impatient, I took some time to do that. And then once I figured it out, then I started to figure out what were versus the tools that I needed and who were the people I needed to support me. Because I think that, you know, when I think of healing, I think of sort of this triangle of, like, I'm at the bottom supporting it, but I do need sort of this support that's going to cover me from tools that you can receive from people like you and I, books, and also people in my immediate circle who I could trust. And once you have that, that was what allowed me. And so I would focus on like, okay, what are my tools? What book can I read? What podcast? What can I go to to tell me how to deal with conflicting messages? Then what can I do? What people around me are going to be able to identify them because I don't have the best identifier. I don't have the best identifier because if I did, I wouldn't have spent the last 15 years allowing this to affect me. So who could help? And I think if people could just take the time to do that, figure out some tools, and figure out the people they trust who have identified or can identify for them, I think that's the first step on going on that journey. And then the easiest day-to-day step is just wake us up and practice saying something nice to yourself. And in the moment when you say something mean, again, going to those people that you implored, I always tell people, get you a little army of people who can love you louder. I have an army of people who love me louder. That when I don't feel good, I literally will say, please love me louder. I don't need you to give me a plate of food, which is nice sometimes. I need you to tell me that the messages I heard are wrong. and that I am enough. I need you to love me loud and publicly because that does something to our souls. When you're, think about it, you walk into a room, people start applying to you, you are, the endorphins arise, you know, you're like, I'm here. So have people in your life to do that for you. So it's an easy practice just to say, I'm good enough. Find one thing on yourself you love. One, one. And if you can't, find some people who can love you love.

What I'm hearing you say is that criticisms you heard, conflicting ideas, you can do it, I believe in you, and you're not enough. And however that was said at home and certain people close to you was conflicting. Can I really do it or am I not enough?

Exactly.

How can we learn to take coaching from people we love, parents, siblings, partners, friends, without looking at it as criticism and feeling like we're never able to make it. How do we learn to decipher the information, the words, and not let it affect us so deeply?

That's a difficult process and I'm not gonna pretend. I think sometimes we try to give easy solutions and that is not easy because especially if you have trust issues. So are we speaking to people who have trust issues or are we speaking to people who don't have trust issues? Because if I have trust issues, it's going to take me a while to discern if your words or if your coaching, as you said, is really for my benefit. And what is the barometer or what is the scale that I use to allow myself to get in deep and to maybe get hurt, but know that I can pull out versus someone who doesn't have trust issues and it's easy, you know, if you don't have trust issues, it's going to be easy. It's like, go ahead and just tell somebody, clearly your boundaries. Tell them, this is what I need to hear, and this is what I don't need to hear. Those things work for people because then you're able to take coaching because you know if they walked over your boundary. If you have trust issues, it feels like everybody's walking over your boundaries. And so when someone's trying to coach you, whether it's your mom, your sister, your cousin, their impact, their intention and impact, we know about that. People have taught that on your show, intention versus impact. You know, like it might be your intention to one thing, but if it impacts me a certain way, It doesn't matter what your intention was. And so if you have trust issues, that's out the door immediately. And you can't just say to them, well, set a boundary, because I got trust issues. And if I set a boundary and you even blink wrong, I'm cussing you out. You know what I mean? It's just the real of it. And I've dealt with a lot of people who have trust issues. And I think for them, it's more of an individual process. And I'm leery to give, Individuals with trust issues. Sure, sure. Advice without knowing exactly what's going on.

Yeah, yeah.

What it is.

Just to be honest. Sure, sure, sure. What's the big, I mean, you've had an amazing career.

It's hard to- you- asked me to highlight is right here being on the School of Greatness. Yeah, I'm letting you know right now. I just told you I started my.

Morning with you for a year, okay? You've had an amazing career though in the last, you know, really 20 years. and it's hard to really make yourself known in LA and in Hollywood on TV. It's really challenging. And you've done it in a lot of different formats with your own talk show, with Queer Eye, which has taken over the world by storm in a positive way.

Thanks.

But I know behind the scenes there had to be some challenges and adversities. You know, public facing, everything looks like you're on top of the world and you have this positive life and you're impacting all these lives. But what has been the biggest challenge over these last 20 years that you've had to face, whether it be personally or professionally?

Oh, managing the importance of other people's opinions.

Really?

It's constant. I mean, it goes back to exactly what my beginning issue was, and it sticks with you. And I can only imagine what studies we'll be doing in 10 years for this generation when it comes to managing the importance of people's opinions, because as much as we hear everybody on social media say, It doesn't matter. Don't look at the comments. Don't do this. Don't do that. you know, it affects you. And in this business, the comments and what people say, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. And so I think that's the thing that has always gotten me, because even before it was comments on social media, it was industry professionals.

It was the critics, the press, the ratings.

Ratings, critics, yeah. But also, like, your team members. who will say things to you that could be just the most hurtful and the most- Team.

Like what would they say?

So they think they're being helpful. I've never had anybody, like I play football. So I had coaches critique my body and it felt normal because they were building my body to be able to compete in this sport. Being in television, for some reason, the commenting on our bodies, when we're not doing anything physical, like I could understand if I was in WWE and, you know, was on TNT every night, you know, whatever. Talk to me. You're my agent. Talk to me about what my physical body looks like. But if I'm going in for a role and the casting director likes it, why do you feel the need to critique? You know, like, why do you feel the need to say something? And, And it's, that's the thing that just gets you because you have to navigate the importance of like whose voice matters. And it took a lot of practice and time for me to figure out how to be louder than other people's comments.

Really?

Yes. It took me a lot of, it took me time to learn how to speak up when I hear other people's comments. It took me time to not internalize other people's comments because You know, there was a moment when I thought, like, I was so healed, like, if you.

Would have caught 32 year old me, you thought you were healed.

Like, nothing could affect you. He was Superman. Really? Oh, my gosh. It was like, you say something to me. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna tell you, you're wrong. You're wrong. This is not who I am. You're not gonna critique me like that. And then I'd go home and it'd be running, like, a broken record in my head. Because it was like, once it penetrated my subconscious, it was done. Because it just connected to some other memory that I had. And it just said, you know, the word trigger triggered it. And so that has been the hardest part of constantly, you know, I'm at a place now where it doesn't really matter that much anymore. But it's still days that, you know, what people's opinions and I mean, not just on social media, how it affects me. And I literally have to sit myself down and take, I have a notes in my phone I can show you later and I will write down what it was that is lingering, what their words said, and I just do the work. you know, I do the work on my self-esteem I do the. I do the homework to figure out why these things are bothering me so much.

What's the thing that bothers you the most?

What used to bother me the most? What used to. And what's the thing that bothers you the most?

Because, like, right now, like I said.

I'm in a good place. Like, now things are like, I'm pretty. Yeah, like, you have a, you know, it's one thing to be on Netflix and have a show. Once you get on daytime TV and it's five days a week, People got everything to say about you. And so I think, people used to challenge my Blackness, which is weird.

How so?

Well, you know, I understand people's-- in this-- I'm just gonna be real with you, I know this is not like-- but this is, because I had a white partner for ten years, and there's not a lot of representation in LGBT community of couples that are of the same race. And for a long time when I was, you know, 23, I was on MTV's Real World, it was my mission to make sure that I'm putting out a certain image. And then I hit 30 and I fell in love with somebody who was the first white guy I ever dated. I had never dated before and I was celebrating my love and sharing it with the world. And then I just started like getting critiqued of like, oh, he's this guy that he don't wanna be around black folks, you know, this or that. Yeah. It's ironic because a lot of people who have different identities get challenged if people feel like they're not living up to that identity. And that was hard for me because it was like my partner didn't define or change me being Black. It didn't define the experiences that it didn't change the experiences that I had walking through the world. But I also understood people wanted to see-- they wanted to see themselves reflected in the world. And I think there was a large amount of pressure that I put on myself of, like, does their words matter more than the happiness I have with this human being? -Wow. -And so, you know, to correlate with, you know, this whole thing, and that was something that, like, bothered me for a very long time. It caused many arguments in my relationship where I was willing-- we were happy, and then I would just almost sabotage.

It because I was like-- Really? -No. -You would sabotage it, but you knew.

That this was-- you- guys were having fun. It was a great connection. Happy, he was a great stepfather to.

My kids, and-- I would sabotage it.

I would literally sabotage it because I would see something online that someone would say like, oh, yeah, here goes another black gay guy, they ain't no white guy. And I would be like, you know what? I'm tired of your, I'm breaking up. And I would sabotage my happiness because of, I couldn't navigate someone else's comments about me. I couldn't navigate and manage what was important. And I couldn't, I could navigate How do you want to, because we're givers. We want to give people what they desire so that they can feel seen and they can feel heard. That's always been my intention. And as I got older, I realized that can be a fine line with people pleasing, you know? And so, yeah. And so it was something that bothered me that then I had to grow through and say, well, how do I define, I have this one life. This is mine. this is all I have. And if I fall in love with who I fall in love with, I would love for it to be what other people want it to be, but it can only be what I. Wow. What it is for me. And I've learned that now. And now I don't put these pressures on myself to live up to anyone's expectations. I, you know, I love who I love, and that's just what it is. And and I encourage I encourage the media when now this is where I've shifted. I encourage them to now highlight, don't highlight my relationship, highlight the ones that are not seen enough. And that's sort of like where I've learned how do you navigate a voice and how do you navigate that like it's not about me anymore. But if I can support you with the small about a bit of power that I have to help someone else's love or they should be seen, then that is what I should be doing here so that that person who needs something to feel seen and feel like they're heard can still get it, but it doesn't have to be on me anymore.

How has things shifted in, you know, being in a different relationship, knowing what you know about the past, sabotaging certain things? Do those Tendencies come up sometimes? I don't sabotage anymore.

Again, my happiness is my happiness, and it feels good to say that. And I tell people that all the time. I'm like, my happiness is my happiness, and you don't get to dictate my happiness. And I don't go home and I don't. I don't spiral over someone's. opinion of my happiness. I don't spiral anymore over someone's. Someone's. I'm even gonna go there. I don't despise anymore over anyone's opinion of my happiness. And it's a beautiful freeing thing.

Why do you think it's so hard for a lot of people in the world to be happy for what they want and not worry about the opinions of others, the criticism, the comments, the or needing other people to do things for them to be happy in a way that they want it. Why do you think it's so hard for people to be happy?

Well, most people haven't made the choice to be happy. And that's just the truth. I was doing this speaking event the other day, and for some reason on my heart, I just asked the audience, how many of you are choosing to be happy? How many of you wake up in the morning and make that a choice that you make the same way you choose what shirt you're going to put on and choose what outfit you're going to wear and choose what cologne or perfume or whatever it is, you know, how the same way you choose to put gas in your car, how many of you choose to be happy? And most people don't. Like I told you, when I said I was listening to you every day, that was part of my regimen to choose my happiness. It was like, what is going to feed me this moment so that I could get the fuel I needed so every single day I could go out there and choose happiness? and it sounds so woo-woo and you know, like, you want me to choose happiness? And the answer is, yes, I really want you to choose happiness. Because if you don't choose happiness, the world will choose something else for you. The world will choose stress for you. The world will choose being overwhelmed. The world will choose sadness. The world will choose all these other things for you if you don't choose happiness. And when you start to practice choosing happiness, you'll see how many things you'll walk away from. You'll see how many things you won't allow affect you. And so I think that's the first step that people have to do is start to choose happiness. And I'm not some guru for saying that. It's something that people have been telling us for years, but no one is telling us that it is a daily practice. Wake up and choose happiness because you deserve happiness.

Absolutely. Amen to that. I can hear you say this and I'm in the same frequency. This is something that I do consistently. It's a choice for me. Even when I feel overwhelmed or stressful moments, I shift into happiness pretty quickly because I have perspective. I just got back from Guatemala. I was in the jungle around kids that really have nothing. We're building schools out there and they're just happy to have a place to go and learn. They get maybe a meal a day, 10 huts, eight people in one room, but they're happy. And so having that perspective allows me to, doesn't mean I still don't have challenges and problems and things happen, but Shifting the perspective and gratitude allows me to choose happiness a lot better. For those listening or watching who are thinking, this sounds great to choose happiness, but I'm broke, I'm in debt, I'm in a really toxic relationship. I'm a single mom, I got four kids that I'm taking care of. I can't even manage my own life, let alone everything else. What do you say to people who are in those situations that are struggling to choose happiness because it just feels like there's so much chaos in their life?

Well, first of all, I acknowledge the chaos, and I think it's important that we don't give some false perception that when life is hard, that we can't acknowledge that it is hard. I have been there. Like, I remember when I got out of depression, you know, I had a suicide attempt, and then I became a father too quickly of, you know, my kids were 10 and seven, and. I did not know how to parent. I didn't have no money. I was choosing whether I gave my kids gas money, I mean, gave my kids lunch money or putting gas in my car. And things were difficult. The relationship that I was in was bad. It was unhealthy. And so I understand all of that list you just said. And back then I didn't choose happiness because of course, like you just expressed, you don't know how. You know, when there is darkness around you, it is very difficult to see it. And I acknowledge that. And so I don't want somebody to feel alone and being like, well, maybe I'm just because you'll end up getting into a cycle of being harder on yourself and you start beating yourself up because the world is beating you up. And in that moment, what I did is realize I get to say that this is the world. This is the world that the circumstances I was born into or situations that I found myself in because of choices I didn't know. The first way I used to choose happiness is I used to say something. There was a song and I wish I could remember the artist's name. She'd say, I'm a young soul, I came to this strange. You know that song?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm in the lyrics, but I know.

Yeah. I don't matter who that was, but I used to give myself some grace and I would say, you,'re a young soul. You're. You're. You don't know. You didn't know. And that one statement that came from that song gave me just a bit to see that I could choose happiness because of the fact that I realized I didn't know this all. So now I know I'm a young soul. I didn't know it. So, okay, so these things are happening. What can I learn from each of them? And when I say, what can I learn from each of them? Was my next step of saying, learning is me choosing happiness in this moment. So I think we have to understand how to define happiness in our darkest moments or redefine happiness so that way you can then feel better. Because learning for me, acknowledging that I was young soul and I wasn't supposed to know everything was made me just a little happiness. It was a redefinition. Me then deciding to learn how to, I remember the first book I got on how to be a better parent. I was like, I'm so happy right now because I'm taking a step to learn. Yes.

You're getting a tool.

I'm getting a tool. Back to that little triangle. I'm getting a tool. And that tool for me made me happy. So I just spent the next couple of years of redefining over and over again what happiness looked like in the moment I was in. And I think if more people can do that, instead of looking at happiness is supposed to be on the beach, happiness is, you know, smiling kids. I don't know what's happiness supposed to be for you because like, Some days I'm like, okay, these kids just got out of school, went to school on time. You know, like, I didn't get a call from a teacher. I am happy. Like, I redefine happiness to that milestone. And then later on, I was like, oh my gosh, now I'm working on my career and I'm doing this. And then I redefine happiness again. So I think the redefining happiness for you and wherever you are is going to be a helpful tool of like you said, practicing that gratitude and recognizing happiness.

Speaking about your kids, what's been the greatest lesson that your kids have taught you?

They don't teach me anything, I'm joking. I mean, it's a million things they teach me. My son's making me a better communicator. My kids are the best mirror for me if I allow it. And that's a big thing because a lot of parents don't allow it. They don't allow their kids to be the mirrors that they need. And it wasn't even sometimes with the words they said, you know, I worked in social services for many years and I remember just coming home and being impatient because I was so stressed from work and my kids' problems just seemed so small. And there's nothing like being like, you know what? Just look at all you have. Be happy for what you have. Saying that to a child, and them looking at you like, what did I do? That you learn really quickly, like, wow, I'm being impatient to your young life. Of course you don't know what's going on in the world, so this is your world.

And they're a young soul.

Yeah, you're a young soul. This is your world. And you're in your world. This is a big problem for you. And so I have to have empathy towards that.

It may not be a problem for you because you overcame a 20 year- 20 years prior.

And so with them, they just taught me, like, be introspective in that way. Like, you know, I watched this YouTube video today where this guy was in a mall and he was being interviewed by some YouTuber or, you know, tick tocker and someone walked past them in the camera. And the guy who was interviewing said.

Look, look at this.

Look, he just walked. He so wouldn't. He walked past us while we're filming. And the other guy speaking to him said, well, maybe we don't look at it as he's being malicious. Maybe he's in his head because something just happened. And maybe, like, we have to just understand that, like, he's a human being going through a lot of stuff, and maybe he's just unaware, like many of us are unaware as we walk through this world. And like, and it's like, wow. And my kids did that for me. The same perspective he gave, my kids gave me that to me. So when I'm talking to someone, I always stop myself and I say, they're going through their own stuff. So right now, I need to be empathetic to where they're at. And I'm not gonna be impatient because they're not growing at the pace that I want them to grow at, or I'm not gonna have this expectation of where they shouldn't be or what they should know. because I assumed that they should know it. And my kids definitely taught me that. And that came from me just looking at my, how I reacted to them, realising that I need to react in better to them and I need to react better to the world around them. -Wow.

One of the big challenges I see a lot of people face with is figuring out relationships in general, but typically intimate relationships.

-Yeah.

-And I know you coach a lot of people on your talk show and also on Queer Eye. you guys work with people in their relationships, in their intimacy and how to really become better human beings. Why do you think people struggle so much in intimacy? I know you and I have struggled in our past.

Yeah, we talked about it beforehand. Yeah.

But why do you think it's so challenging just for a lot of people to create, like, Harmony, peace in a relationship, not a perfection.

Most people don't have the models of it. and the models were given, you know, is so dated. I mean, like, people have said this a million times over, but, like, think about it as kids, you know, as much as I love the New Disney movie, Haley Berry is. I'm Halle Berry is, or Haley Bailey is just killing it. I'm like, the first model we gave to little girls was, like, give up your voice for a man. You know, like, we, like, drop a shoe behind, you know? I mean, like, I remember the first time I went to a guy's house and I left something behind, it was like, that's toxic. And I did that because Yo, Cinderella told me, girl, you leave a shoe behind, he gonna come find you. He's gonna invite you back, and it's not true.

Or beauty and the beast, let me.

Make you a prisoner. Let me make you abuse you. Abuse you. And then have you fall in love with me. Fall in love with me. I mean, come on. And so we don't, most of us don't have the right models. We never got them. We might not have seen in our home. And if we did see it in our home where it was really healthy, most of the times our parents didn't really tell us the struggles because every relationship has issues. And the ones that are perfect have stayed together for 40 years, 50 years, usually aren't as transparent as they need to be about the struggles they had. I remember Michelle Obama, you know, a couple months back got in trouble because she had said she's been with Barack for 30 years and 10 of them were bad. And she said, I'll take those odds. And a lot of people were like, what, you're taking 10 odds? And she wasn't saying 10 consecutive years of, like, I'm being abused. She was saying within that, there are a lot of times that you have to work a little bit harder. and you have to communicate a little bit better. And I think most of us don't have the models. So for me, what I've started doing now to have healthy relationships is from day one, date one, and this is a cute thing you should do.

Day one or date one?

Day one or date one. I say to my partner, the five things, or the person I'm talking to, the five things that I think I need in this moment, to have a healthy relationship. And I asked them, what are the five things they need?

What are those five things for you?

Oh, I need communication. I need sensitivity, sensitivity slash empathy. I need adventure. I need sexuality and sensuality. I need a lot of that. And I need a lot of vulnerability. which is different than the sensitivity empathy for me. And those things right there, it's like, let's just get this out the way. Do you understand what those five things mean? And if you don't, I can give you some time to explain what those things are. So when I say I need adventure, it doesn't mean that I'm trying to, we need to be jumping out of planes every weekend, but it does mean at least once a month, we need to be a priority and we need to find something that's out of our everyday life to do together. because I don't ever want to get into a routine with you. When I see, say that I need communication, that means that in the hardest moments of our life, I need to know that you're not going to walk away, that you're going to talk to me. It doesn't mean that I can't give you space to cool off or to, you know, get your time, but even that is a little bit of a deeper conversation of like, what is that space and time? And I think too many people go through the happiness and the joy and like, oh, the excitement and endorphins of it all. And then when those moments come, you have no baseline to say, well, I told you these were what I needed. And I don't know what you need either because you never told me. What are the things that are important to you? Because I think the more you can be honest and transparent about what you need and not being like, well, I need somebody who's got, you know, money and I need, like, no, like, because it's really more of that emotional and mental thing that you need that in the hardest moments is going to what's going to make you or break you.

Yes.

Can you be sensitive to me being sensitive? That's a big thing for me because I'm the Scorpio and I'm sensitive as hell. You say the wrong thing and I'm like, hold on, I'm over it right now. And I'm like, hold on, do I strike back or do I go into like, cry right now? I don't know. And so can you be sensitive to that? Is that too much for you? And I think that if more people could have those conversations from day one, to create a foundation and understand that those things could change and you got to check back in on those things.

Yeah.

Because in three years, that might not be what I need anymore and it might not be your list line that be what you need. But are you really having those conversations? And if you're already deep into a relationship and you see that there's areas that, you know, you need to work on, go back to the basics and say, what are the five things you need? What are the five things that you need that are going to make you feel? Because, like, sex, you know, sensuality and sexuality and that stuff for me, a lot of people get older and or even young relationships and it starts to become not a priority for one partner or for both. And that could break people up or make them start to cheat. So we have to come back together and reengage, like, what is the level of sexual intimacy that you need so we stay connected? Yeah.

So you, you come to these five things day one. This is what we did with your current part.

Day one. Now, I told you the day me and my partner met, I thought it was a booty call.

Yeah.

And then we spent eight hours together, not even a single drip talking. And that was on the list of.

Things we talked about.

That's one of the things you talked about.

He showed me his bank account on their first night.

Wait, the number to log in or how much he had in the bank account? He showed me his bank account. Oh, wow. And it wasn't something that was like, I'm showing off.

It was, we were having a conversation about financial stability. I think that's so important to talk about all the, maybe it's not day one for everyone in every, like, dating.

Experience, but I think it is so important. Why can't it be day one? Let's have our conversation. Why can't it be?

I agree because this is what I did with Martha, my girlfriend. The first day we had a lot of these conversations. And one of the things that we talked about was priorities. This wasn't day one, but this was pretty quick within our dating experience before we got committed exclusive. She was like, what are your priorities in life? The old priorities question that every man gets eventually, right? And I said, Are you sure you want to hear the truth?

Yeah.

Because in the past, I felt like I had to skirt around the truth because there would be triggers or fear or reactions. I said, are you sure you want to hear it? She said, yes. I go, you may not like what I'm about to say. And you may not want to hang out with me anymore. So just be aware you're asking for this.

Yeah.

She said, what is it? And I said, my number one priority is not you. If we get into this committed relationship. and no woman wants to hear or no other partner wants to hear, you,'re not number one. Now there's context around this.

Yes, of course.

My number one priority is my health, my spiritual, emotional, physical health.

Yes.

Because if I have bad health, I'm not gonna be good for you. So for me, that's why my health is my top priority, so that I can be of service to my number two priority, which is still not you. Doesn't mean you're not a top priority. but the number two priority at this season of my life is my mission, my purpose, what I feel like I'm called to do at this season.

Yes.

And that is what I'm up to currently. And it doesn't mean I'm not, I'm going to neglect you. I'm not going to have time for you. But you need to make sure that you don't pull me from my mission, that you support me and elevate me in being of service to my mission, because it's important to me. And if I feel like I'm pulled from it, then I'm probably to resent the relationship. But if you are a full alignment that my number one and number two priorities and what they are, you're gonna feel like the biggest priority in the world. You're gonna feel like number one. You're gonna be have more time for me than ever before. You're gonna get the best of me and you're gonna have everything you want. Let me tell you something. This is why I was listening to.

You every morning for a year. Let me tell you something. You ever been to a black church? Did you come to a black church and come and drop this knowledge? 'Cause you just, the pastor just came out in you. That is amazing.

But I think, you know, either I was attracting certain people or that weren't able to hear it with the context. Again, most people don't want to hear, I'm entering a relationship and you're not gonna be my number one or two priority. But it's again, building the context around it. Make sure that you support me in going to the gym, doing therapy, doing things to support my growth. you support me in my mission, you push me to go do it. And I'm gonna give you all of me.

So we are in line to what we're doing. We immediately told our partners what we need. And then there from there it starts to expand. I would tell you to stop prefacing with you might not like this.

Right.

Because that you're already setting them up for something that you're unconsciously telling them and it's like they should like this. And they should then learn from it. Oh, that's why you're together.

Right away she goes, yes, she told me like, yes, because she goes, every person I've been with didn't have a purpose. Maybe they had some skill or something they were doing, but they didn't love it.

Yeah.

They weren't fully invested in their mission in life. And they made her their purpose. This is what she told me. They were like, you,'re my purpose. She was like, no, I don't want that.

Yeah.

I want you to go do your thing, and then we can do things together.

Together. Amen.

And so, you know, she was on a healing journey, so she was more conscious in that way that she wasn't insecure if her partner was out in the world doing their thing.

But I think having those conversations like.

We did early on, for me, has set me up for a lot more peace and harmony. Again, there's misunderstandings and we got to go through stuff all the time, but it's harmonious in those misunderstandings. I have to go reevaluate my list.

'Cause I'm gonna have to tell Carlos. My new number one, Carlos, is me. I'm too codependent for that. It's not happening. It's not about, like, me. No, no, I'm messing with you. I'm messing with you. But no, I joke because I actually think it's beautiful and I think it's something that should be taught more. And I think I unconsciously know how to do that already, but I think the language that you provide in that is why I just said amen. More people need to hear that is because that is such a powerful thing to be able to admit to someone else that my health and who I am is a priority. And I think it's beautiful because it just sets the tone. And you and I now are in a healthy relationship. We're both praying that we continue to grow with this person. the people that we're with, but at least it's healthy where we're at because of the fact that we made the choice to be honest and direct about what our foundation is. Absolutely. And I just wish more people could do that.

I didn't do it for, you know, my teens and 20s and early 30s. I didn't know how to do that because there was more of a chemical connection.

Yeah.

That was fun and exciting and interesting, but I didn't have the courage to have those conversations. I lacked the emotional flexibility, awareness, vulnerability to really dive in spiritually first. And that chemical bonding created a heightened emotional experience. I was like, okay, let's just have more fun together. Let's just hang out. Let's do this adventure. Let's do this. As opposed to having those conversations. And one of the early exercises we did, the first day we met each other, I was actually like, listen, I'm on a healing journey and I'm going to continue on this journey for the rest of my life. and we made an agreement early on before we got committed that we would do therapy together in the start of the relationship. Doesn't mean we're going every week or something like that, but just having someone we can both go to and just talk about our values. It is the best. Our vision from the beginning.

Yeah.

And it has given us so much peace because we create agreements. There aren't expectations, it's agreements early on and creating alignment around agreements.

Yes.

And for me that has given us just more it gives me peace of mind. Yeah, more energy in my life. So that's one of the things that I feel like a lot of people, if they started to do these exercises early on, it would save them pain later.

I 100,000% agree with you.

We did another one where I said, let's do an exercise on values. I want you to have a notebook and me have a notebook. I'm going to give you, you know, 5 minutes. I put some, you know, meditative music on. I said, I want you to write your values down. Don't show them to me.

Mm.

I let her do this, and then I did it for myself. And then we shared them together without me seeing them first and be like, let me write down her value.

And.

Say, do we truly have alignment? It doesn't have to be a perfect match, but are we in alignment on our values? Because if we're completely off, I mean, I might like you, we might have connection, but that might be a struggle in the future. It doesn't mean we can't work, but it just may be, It's just information.

How often do you, how quickly did you do the values? I did the values thing with Carlos. We did that in the first month.

Yeah, same.

We did it first month, yeah.

Yeah, it was powerful. Yeah, it was powerful. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Keep going. Oh, you're good.

Yeah.

The values exercise was a great one. And for me, you know, the foundation really starts with values, shared vision and shared lifestyle, you know? And if, if you can get, it doesn't have to be everything perfect and the same. She grew up in Mexico, I grew up in Ohio. You know, we, she grew up in.

A different religious background, but we have similar values. Yeah. And I think that's what has allowed us to, both feel peaceful at this season of life. You know, it's funny, 'cause we had that value conversation, like I said, within that first three weeks or whatever, and Carlos, though older in his 30s, had not let his family into his life regarding his sexual orientation. And so, none of his family members, except for one brother who was also identified as gay, knew that he had any boyfriends prior. Never.

They didn't know or they just didn't.

Choose to say-- They didn't know. 'Cause he had never talked to them. He never let them in. I don't use the term coming out. I think it's antiquated, as I don't think that's actually the act. I think it's-- I think we should be inspiring people to understand that the.

Act actually is letting people in.

And I think when you change-- Not coming out, not cutting out. Interesting. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out.

-Cutting out.

-Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out. -Cutting out you need to stay out. It's more of a protection. And also, I've never come out of anything. And I don't know where that closet is. I don't know where that closet is.

You haven't been hiding in a closet.

There's a closet. There better be a pot of gold in there for all the BS I've been through to pay me back. And I'm gonna burn the closet down after. So I say letting in, but Carlos had never let anyone into his life, not ever. And so when we did that values conversation, I said, family is important to me. My family and I, travel, we do every holiday, it is big. And I was like, it's also extremely important that your family is there because I'm not one of those individuals that like, I want my partner to be just absorbed into my family. I want to absorb into their family as well. And I said, is that a value that you have where family and family bonding and love is important? He said, it is. And I said, well, I'm not going to pressure you to let anyone in because that's not my journey. But we have to figure out how do those values aligned? And I fell in love with him because he literally went home, called me two days later and was like, I've thought about it and I think it's time that I started making the steps to let my family in. And literally a week later, told his mother, literally, I'm the first, told his brother, I'm the first partner his family has ever met. And they are at my house, every, our house, every Christmas, Thanksgiving, everything. because it was a value conversation we had to have and I wasn't afraid to have it. And he was mature enough to know that he had to do the work. So I'm with you on that value conversation.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Just a little personal story about my life.

No, it's beautiful. It's interesting because I like this conversation around letting people in. And I think, you know, I can't understand your experience and what you've had to do to let people in with that conversation. But I think a lot of it ties to maybe a shame around society or where you might feel like you don't fit in or where maybe people might shame you or they might judge you for something that you've gone through or you're experiencing.

Yeah.

And I lived with the shame for 25 years. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know.

Yeah.

And for 25 years, no one knew because I wouldn't let them in.

Yeah.

Again, I wasn't in some closet hiding, but I wouldn't let people in because I felt if people knew this about me, no one would love me.

Yes.

No one would accept me. I'd be kicked out of the family. My friends would laugh at me and make fun of me. You know, growing up as a straight white man in Ohio, if I, and I was very affectionate with my guy friends. Like, I'd put my arm around them. I wanted to hug people. When I met you, we hugged each other. And I'm like, of course. Like, don't let go. Let's hold each other longer. Yeah. But I would get made fun of for just putting my arm around a brother of mine, right? or I'd be called names or I'd be pushed or whatever it was.

Yeah.

And so I was afraid if people knew this about me, no one would accept me or love me.

Yeah.

And it got to the point where I started to open up about it.

And also, we live in a society where you express that all of a sudden, they start to label you as every bit of gay, whatever, whatever, yes, that comes with it.

Exactly. And I remember as I started to. To explore opening up to my family about it. when I was 30 years old, 10 years ago, I talked to a therapist friend of mine and I go, I'm really afraid to tell my family this because I don't know how they're going to react. Do you have any advice on what I can maybe do and approach? And she said, before you essentially let them in, set the context and ask them a question. And the question is, is there anything I could ever say or do that would make you not love me? and then see how they respond. If they give you some hesitation, maybe you don't share, you don't let them in. If you feel like they are willing to receive whatever you're about to share with them, then maybe you can open your heart and let them in. And that was a powerful exercise for me to do that with all my family members and then eventually with my friends, which actually scarier with friends for me, of course, like guy friends, they really get to accept me. My family has to accept me, right? But our friends get to accept me, you know, in the business world, all these things. What's a great approach that you think people can use today to let people in with whatever thing that might be they're afraid of? Whether it's a shame, an insecurity, something about their identity that they're afraid that people won't accept them, what's something they could do to feel ready to let others in?

I think first practicing that, practicing, which is my key word, I should get it tattooed on me, practicing understanding that all parts of who you are are powerful. All parts of your story are not shameful. They're not ugly. They're beautiful. All parts of your story. And I've learned that through my life. Every part of my story, I love. I love every part of my story. The darkest parts, the lightest parts. And I think practicing understanding that gives you sort of a power and an understanding to know that there's not a part of my story when somebody 300 years from now opens your book and reads it, they're not going to be like, oh, I hate this part. Rip this page out. They're just going to read it and go to the next page because they know it's a story that's continuing. And that perspective has given me the power to know that there's no part of my story that's wrong or right. It's a journey and I'm on this journey and it's harder in the moment to think that because we never know what the next page is going to be. But then also trusting and discerning that I have enough power and understanding of who I am to know who's going, who's best for my life. And I used to tell myself consistently like, if a stranger came to my front door, would I open it? if a family member that was shady came to my front door, would I open it? And they say always, your body is your temple, a temple has a door. Would I open it for this person? And understanding that I've already had discernment and clarity about who I let into my actual physical front door, that it gave me the same thing that I know who to let into my emotional and mental front door. Because everything that's inside this house, some things might be a little screwy, a little loose, and some things might be beautiful. But I love everything in here because I'm living here again, going back to that initial piece, and then understanding that. And I think I say that because it's empowering. And it takes it, I think what your therapist said is great. That would be my third step of like, focusing and practicing understanding who's good for your life. But I think the first step is empowering yourself to believe that you have the discernment and understanding of what's best for you. And I think that's why, and I'll particularly to speak to people who are in the LGBTQIA community or on their journey in that area, whether it's their gender expression or their sexual orientation, is you have to empower yourself first and you have to feel empowered. before you start to let people in and understanding that you already are empowered. Because I think we spend a lot of time waiting for other people outside of us to empower us. And that's why this whole coming out idea was something that was like, that spread like wildfire, because it was easier for people to say, let me come out to you. And if you accept me, great. Now I feel empowered because my mom loves me. Let me be empowered because my aunt said she wants to go to pride with me. And it's like, Nah, that's a great addition, but you've got to be empowered by your own story first, and you have to be empowered by your own journey. And if you have to remember, there is no part of your story that is wrong. There is no part of what has happened to you, happened for you, or happened with you that is wrong. And once you start to learn that and you start to empower yourself, it makes it easier to then look to that people of your own mental health and say, I don't think I want to let you in. And there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with the fact that I don't want to let you in because that says more about the person you don't want to let in versus me. And so even with you on your journey of expressing and letting people into that, the fact that you are sexually abused, some people don't have the maturity, some people don't have the language to understand that. And I didn't hear shame when you told me your story. I didn't hear shame at all. I heard someone who was figuring out, who can I let in? Right, right. And I think when you reframe language to understand that, it helps us to feel more empowered about making decisions for our own life. You made a decision when you were ready and you didn't need to make it a day before. And the reason we know you didn't need to make it a day before because you made it when you made it. And you're gonna let somebody into your life regarding your sexual orientation, your gender identity when you're ready. And the day you do it, it's because that was the day it was supposed to happen. You didn't, it wasn't supposed to happen 10 years before, one has to 15 years before. It happened. The day it need to happen because you started to trust yourself and you started to feel empowered by yourself. And I think that's for me, what I want to encourage people to do. Those are the steps I want to take. The third step, again, I agree with that therapist. Look at those people. If you are scared about the discernment of what you can trust in other people, look at them. Ask that question. That's a great question. But first, take some time and feel empowered by yourself.

I love that. and I'm curious for people that have been in relationships with friends, family members, peers for a long time. And then they, but they haven't let them in on whatever, yet they start to feel that empowerment themselves and they start to share with others and let them in. What if someone close to them for a long time has just ignorant, uneducated, afraid, confused about your empowerment of yourself now after 10, 20, 30 years of knowing this person. And all of a sudden, now I'm empowering myself to be fully authentic and share with this with you into me. How do people navigate when someone is ignorant, confused, shocked, embarrassed for the person that they've loved for a long time or, and disempowers them in that process.

Well, understand no one has the power to disempower you. No one has that power. You, you're actually making that choice. So again, it goes to that journey we talked about earlier about people's words and how they affected me early on. I realized you don't have the power to take away my happiness or to give me the happiness and make me feel strong. And I think, again, not to reiterate it, but that's why I think that this term coming out is antiquated. Because again, it just says to people, this person has the power to cheer you on or not.

To accept you or not.

To accept you or deny you. And it's not about them. It has nothing to do with them. It's all a self choice and self journey. And so if someone that you've been friends with or family members, 10 years, 20 years, two years, two days, and you feel like, I want this person to get it. I want this person to understand. If they don't, it has nothing to do with you and it says nothing about you. It says everything about them. So I remind myself in my own life when people, I let people into parts of who I am and they have a negative reaction, I always stop and I'll say it now because I'm empowered and I'll say, so that has nothing to do with me. That's all you. And you should see the shock people on their face where they're like, what? And I'm like, well, your reaction has nothing to do with me because I'm over here loving myself and in my space and empowering myself. The fact that you have a negative reaction shows your own personal growth. It shows where you need to be in life. And I think the more people remind themselves of that, can say that out loud, and to go back to that home metaphor, if someone knocked on your door and you said, please come in, I have some great music, I have TV on, I got some food on the stove, and they said, no, I don't want to come in there. You're going to go inside, you're going to turn your TV on, you're going to watch your TV, you're going to eat your food. And I think it's the same thing for when you're letting people in. Like, you would then close the door and say, well, they didn't want to come in. You're going to pick up your phone and say, well, who can I call? who does want to come in, who I love and trust and who wants to enjoy the beauty of the home that is me. And that's how I react. And I think more people need to practice reacting that way because we don't practice our reactions enough. Everything in life is practice. It's practice, practicing your self-esteem, practicing your reactions, practicing your communication. So when I let people in and they don't want to come in, I shut the door and I don't lock it because again, I'm a forgiving person. So if one day you do the work to do the journey, the door is unlocked. I'm gonna open it back up for you.

Yeah.

Some people do get locked, but you know, for the most part, you know, but I go find people who do want to come in and if in that moment I need to go into my house, I'm gonna find the things that come for me and I'm gonna cry and I'm gonna grieve that journey that they're on. Again, I'm grieving the journey they're on. I'm not grieving me not having them. I'm grieving the journey that they have to be on. Right. Because I'm sad for them.

Should we want everyone to accept who we are authentically? To like, this is my expression of myself. This is what I'm about. This is my identity. Should we want the world to accept us?

I think acceptance is a word that gets thrown around too easily. I do believe we should have everyone should respect us. And I believe that is just the core thing. And I think when it comes to respect, that means respect means you're not doing something because of your power to harm or hurt me. And I think that's the key thing. I'll give you a prime example in my own personal life. My son is an atheist and I'm someone who goes on Instagram and prays. Okay, so we have very different views. Do I accept my son as an atheist is a tricky thing to say. I damn sure respect him as an atheist, and I respect his choice to make decisions for his life, and I respect him enough not to force him into situations where he has to feel like he has to conform or not be his authentic self. And so when we're at family gatherings, and my son was here right now, he'll tell you, people will be like, we're gonna pray, and they'll be like, Jason, you're in your aunt's house now, you have to pray. And I said, no, no, no, no, you have to respect him, And if he wants to join us, then that is his choice, but you will respect him because he's not doing anything to vocalize negativity against your choice because he's respecting your choice.

He's not making you wrong.

He's not making you wrong, so don't make him wrong. Right.

How do you navigate that when you have such a strong belief in something, whether it's religion or whatever?

Yeah.

You have a strong belief and someone close to you has a completely opposite belief. How do you navigate respecting, loving, you know, unconditionally another human being, whether it's your son or anyone, how do we navigate that when someone we care about has a completely different belief around something?

Well, go inward and ask yourself, was there a time you remember that people didn't love you and respect you? Was there a time that you felt alone, that you felt like you just wanted someone to just respect who you are? And every human being, whether you are a white man, white woman, black man, black woman, whatever race, whatever gender identity, we all remember a time that we needed someone just to respect us. And for me, that's how I reconcile my respect for others, because I say to myself, it's different, but I remember being there. I remember going to my family and expressing a part of who I am and wanting them just to respect me because I'm a human being. And so when my son says anything to me, I go back to that place in myself and say, well, you know what? Doesn't mean I'm not going to have conversations. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to research and I'm not going to be curious about this part of who you are, but I'm damn sure going to make sure that you feel respected because I know what felt like to not be respected. And I think if more people brought things back to themselves and remembered how they felt, they wouldn't want to put that on other people. And I think that's just what it is to be a human being. We heard that from early on, do unto others as you want done unto you. And I think, and you know, because this is such a time in our, in our history where we see the anti-lgbtqi legislation, we see rampant hate, we see what people are doing. I just wonder if that was your own child or if that was you. Would you want that? Would you want people to do that to you? Would you just want that? And I think if people just remembered that feeling, maybe they would start to just show respect as they're on a journey to understand their fellow human beings.

Wow, that's beautiful, man. I'd love to talk to you for hours, but I want to- We're having.

You over to dinner.

You're salsa dancing, we're having dinner. We're doing it. Making some tacos. We're doing it. I got a final few questions for you, but before I ask them, how can we be of service to you today? For everyone listening and watching today, but also this will be on for many years to come. How can we serve you immediately and in the future with what's on your heart and in your life right now?

It's a very happy thing for me to say that I actually don't need anything right now. I mean, I mean, there's this career thing that we all like, watch my show, support it, you know, I mean, tune in to Karamo weekdays, check your local listings and, you know, tune in to Queer Eye, you know, there's all that stuff, obviously, that, you know. But in my own personal life, I have tools. You're one of my tools. I'm so blessed to be here with one of my tools, you know, I have my community. that is loving me louder. I I know how to navigate and trust myself, and so I'm. I don't. I don't need anything right now. And I wish I had something that could be like, hey, I need people to do this for me right now, but I don't. I don't. I just, you know, I don't.

Yeah.

Feels nice to say. That's good. Yeah. You got great content, though.

I want people to follow you on. Oh, yeah. You can go to follow me on.

Social media, you know, go to @karamo. You know, I'm the worst at social media. I I need to ask you who does yours. Because like, I have all these great ideas of like how I want to inspire people on social media and then like, I pick up my phone and then the phone ring and I'll be like, I forget all about it. Oh, you know what I mean? And like, it just like, or I'm at dinner and I have these beautiful plates in front of me. It's just generational because I didn't grow up with social media. And so the phone is usually the last thing I think of picking up in a moment when I'm happy or when I'm excited or when I have a thought. It's weird. And so yeah, follow me on social media, you know, @karamo everywhere, having a unique name, it's easy, K-A-R-A-M-O. You can watch my show, it's called Karamo. You can read my book, it's called Karamo. I mean, it's pretty simple to figure out who I am and where I'm at. Please, you know, support that. But of course, other than that, you know, if someone feels gracious enough to do that, I'm so thankful. But, I don't need it. I mean, I need it, but I don't need it. I just, I think the thing that will service me is just like challenging yourself to be better, practicing your own happiness. That's what I need because I'm tired of walking around and seeing people that are sad because it hurts. It makes me sad and I'm a super empathetic person. I like, people keep calling me an empath and I don't really know what that means. I haven't done the research enough to know what that means to accept that as a title for myself. but I just feel people. And so, like, if someone wants to do something for me outside of following me, go find your tools, go find your community, start to believe in yourself. Do those things for me. That could help me out. Because you do that, you're going to start making better choices for yourself. It's going to start affecting your community, and then it's going to start affecting my life. Because, like, the more you do stuff that is better for and healthier and more full of love, then it starts to affect the way we vote and the way we treat each other in traffic and the way we walk past each other and say hi. It starts to change everything. So that's what I need. I love this, man.

Make sure you guys follow Karamo everywhere and all your shows content. It's all at Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, everywhere. We'll have it all linked up as well. And if you're enjoying this, share your biggest takeaway on the YouTube as well in the comments below. I'd love to hear your biggest takeaway from Karamo.

This is for real because I used to be giving comments on yours. You had no idea. This is kind of cool for me because I'm usually giving comments like, oh my gosh, I took this away from this. This was great. This is going, oh my God, I'm doing this on next season of Queer Eye.

I do that already.

Look at this. I'm having a moment. I'm sorry.

I love it. I want to acknowledge you, Karamo. I've got two final questions. Yes, sir. Before I ask them, I want to acknowledge you for your authenticity. Thanks. For showing up true to yourself, for being on the healing journey as it's a constant journey. It's not like you finished today. It's an ongoing journey. and for accepting who you are and being empowered in yourself and allowing people to see you and hopefully they respect you. Not everyone may accept you, but hopefully people respect you.

Thank you.

So I acknowledge you for showing up and being in service the way you do with your show, with Clear Eye, the way you show up and serve people. I know you are a leader, you're a coach, you're a guide, you're a mentor. So I acknowledge you for all those things, my friend.

Thank you.

This is a question I asked everyone towards the end. It's called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live on this Earth, but then it's finally your last day. And you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish in your career, and you have a happy, beautiful life, and you have the family, you have the things you want. Yeah, but for whatever reason, it's your last day and everything you've created. has to go with you. So no one has access to the book and the content and the shows and all the videos and this conversation is gone. Hypothetical.

Yeah.

But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from your entire life, three lessons that you would leave behind. Yeah. And that's all we have to remember you by. What would be those three truths for you?

You're more powerful than you think. you have the power to change your life, and there's a lot of power and connection. I think that's gonna be it. I would just tell people those things. I'll also tell them that you can, you know, scratch off one mills. I just thought about it now.

Go for it.

I'd also tell somebody, like, General operational trauma actually has to start and break with somebody, and you can actually be the one that breaks it. You really can be. I see that now all the time. Like, you can break it. You can be the one to break it. 'Cause I broke it in my family.

Me too.

Yeah.

You know, it's beautiful. Right.

Sorry, I gave you four.

No, it's great. It's all good. Final question. What is your definition of greatness?

Yeah, I think greatness for me is just a lot of like, it's just never stop practicing and never stop, never stop practicing. I practice, maybe it's the student in me or the athlete in me, I just practice, practice, practice. I'm keen on understanding where my life is and what I need to practice to be better. And I'm not afraid to tell people that I'm in a mode of practicing, that I'm not ready for that game, I'm not ready for this piece of whatever life is giving, I'm not ready because I still need some practice. I'm not ashamed by that. And I try to teach my sons to practice, you know what I guess, I guess practice your greatness every single day. Don't be afraid to practice your greatness. And so if things weren't just for you when you were a little kid, you replicated as an adult in ways of you become competitive with your partner. Because you're trying to find justice. Oh, you know what? I work so much. Of course, you take care of kids and don't tell me anything about anything because this is what's fair.