Master THESE TRICKS to Have a Leg Up in Life!

You don't have to be aggressive. Secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage.

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We're in la.

Yes.

There's a great guy here in town. His name is Tom Girardi, voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the Bar Association. He gets voted top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page, they say, again. So he comes in and he's a guest of my class at usc. And I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's going to be an attack dog because I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class and he says, you know, the key to negotiations is being nice and gentle. Now, what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard. And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent, and that's why he's so successful. And he's ridiculously nice about it. Like, he smiles and he chats with people, and he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. You get into an argument with him and immediately he'll bend it, where he's talking with you about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now or in the future, which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does. Like, if you're barricading a bank, I'm going to say my first goal is to get you out of there alive. Well, I picked a point in the future that we can collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively, and he's just super nice about it. I mean, like, you either you're going to cooperate with him because you like him so much, he's never going to let up on you, or more than likely you're going to say something accidentally and he gets people saying stuff accidentally. And then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally. He lets you say so many things accidentally.

What do you mean accidentally?

Well, he loves to get people uncovered emails that they never should have written. If you send Tom an email saying, tom, let's go have lunch together, he will not email you back saying, okay, because he doesn't put anything in emails. Because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit. Somebody who's done something wrong is going to put it in an email. And Tom knows if he's nice to the other side long enough, he's going to figure out where those emails are. So. And that's what people do all the time. You know, lawsuits are uncovered. People get into trouble with what they put in emails. When they say, hey, they sent an email to somebody else, they say, hey, you know, we, you know, we shouldn't be doing this. And a person sends an email back saying like, yeah, it's okay, nobody's ever gotta find out.

Oh my gosh.

In today's day and age, people put stuff in emails. And so Tom knows he's just relentlessly nice, relentless and the most charming guy you ever met in your life. Wow. So you don't have to be aggressive. Secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now I'm coming at you as a very control oriented negotiator. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage.

Because then you feel like you're in control and you don't have to try to gain it anymore.

Right? Right. I'm more than likely going to start dropping my. If I'm a control freak guy, if I want to talk all the time, I'm a control freak guy. Control freak negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you want to get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control. So you did a real nice job with that. Now the only thing, another thing that we teach is, see, you're not going to give me a car. And you try to make it sound like you Were going to. Now I teach how to say no. And then you want to feel other ways of saying. Because the real answer to that, just like at the very beginning of my book, you're supposed to look, look at me and say, how am I supposed to do that?

So points it back to a question, right?

A how question.

An open ended question.

Well, not just open ended. How, okay, how is the key to life. Yes. Is nothing without how. So you never find. And you could also start talking about how without talking about yes, so to.

Say, would I even say.

You could say, how would I do that?

Would I say I'd love to get you what you need. How would I do that?

Just how would I do that?

How would I do that? So give them the control to figure out the solution.

Right, right, right. How am I supposed to get you the car in that time frame? Because that's what you're trying to express. There actually is a time problem here, right.

In 60 seconds, how am I supposed to get you a car?

Right, right. That's different than we can get a car. We just need 60 more seconds.

We need more time. Yeah, yeah, right.

Because now I think, now I think you're ducking me. But if you instead you say like, how am I, you know, of course the cars are out here right away. But first of all, I got to tell everybody what we're going to do. I don't need anybody to get surprised. Let's talk through the details of how this is going to get done. In the meantime, what got you here in the first place, how do you find yourself into this kind of a situation? How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of how questions. How am I supposed to promise to get you a car if I don't know that she's going to come out alive? You take what you want and make it the path to what I want. How am I supposed to get you in here if it doesn't benefit me also? So as soon as in any negotiation, what I want is now a means of getting what you want, then that changes the dynamic right away.

So how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want? They're very controlling Alpha, and it's their way or no way.

Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list. First of all, being in control is number one on their list and that's emotionally satisfying. The second thing is the alpha type, which is, we refer to that as the assertive. The One thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from. So. And it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, you know what? My boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out, or she heard me out. I. I can live with the direction we're going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion. And so the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respectably, that you respected them and that you knew what they were coming from. And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want.

If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and demanding.

Right, right, right. Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me.

Right.

I want you to know how important I am.

So how do you meet that person? Just come to them with respect or with calm.

You could say, look, you're impressive. You're phenomenal.

You've thought, it's all out. This is very.

Yeah. I mean, clearly, you know where you're coming from. You know what you want. I'm lucky to be talking to you at all. I mean, if were I to sit down with Donald Trump, I would, in fact, be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him.

I'd say, stroke his ego.

You're an American icon. You know, you're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah. You know, stroking our ego is not a bad thing. And, you know, it's a version of empathy because that's how they see themselves. And, you know, the emotional recognition, like emotional currency, is not going to solve every deal. I just don't want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency.

I'm saving my money with emotional empathy, Currency intelligence.

Right, right. My money's too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction. So, yeah, I'm enormously tight with my dollars.

And so many people, especially men in business deals, I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want, and so somehow they'll. They'll lose money because they're not able to have empathy or they're not able to, whatever. They're not able to drop their ego.

Yeah, a lot, a lot of, a lot of money's left on the pay on the, on the table over stuff like that or what they value themselves out. Like price is the most, Price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price. But if I can get you to value yourself in another way, put you on a magazine cover, stroke the ego.

In some other way.

It used to be you get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted to. If you put him on a cover, you know, imagine the amount of time and that used to be his deal. If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the COVID and then he would knock himself out. For the people doing the articles on Access, anything, answering questions, imagine how valuable his time was. They got a cover to the magazine anyway, they got put somebody on it. Now they're trading something that costs him nothing. And he's giving them dynamic interviews and.

He'S promoting them hard and he's sharing them with everyone. He's framing it everywhere. Interesting.

So you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition.

So what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field? And also how do those translate into the business and relationship world just in.

General outside of, well, let the other side go first.

You know, most people have are. So they're burning with their argument, here's why you should make this deal. And they've got that memorized and they're not going to listen to a word you say until they get it out. So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic because they're rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic and so you just can't get through to them. So you let them go first. And another guy, Ned Colenti, former GM of the Dodgers, friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator, he's lectured in my class at USC also. And Ned always likes to let the other side go first. He did the Barry Bonds deal, he's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, well, in a two hour phone call, there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold where the person I'm talking to, based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used, he's got an instinct for it he couldn't identify. He just always say this, 90 seconds of sock gold. And I'd say, what Is that. And we talk it through, and he says, well, yeah, it's going to be a change in the tone of voice. It's going to be a different kind of adjective. So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what it's going to take to make the deal. What they want, right?

Yeah.

What they're burning for or how they characterize what they have or what they're.

Not saying, too, maybe.

Exactly. Right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said, which is why I give it a little thought in advance. All right. What are they going to say if they've got this? So I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said, what's glaringly missing. And that's going to take. I'm going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out of me.

Okay. Okay. Who are the most difficult people to work with then? Would you say it's the alpha people, or would you say it's the uncertain people, or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with?

You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match that has a tendency. It's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal. Like, I don't like liars or I don't like. The most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through, which is as bad as a liar, only their heart's not in the wrong place.

They don't know what they want specifically.

Or they don't know how they're going to. They don't know how they're going to get this done. Which is. Again, we go over and over again. I go over and over again, yes. There's nothing with how. And the person who thinks like, yes, is going to make a deal. Well, yes, is not going to make a deal because you got to have how. How are we going to put this together? And someone who doesn't think things through, a lot of times they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises. And so when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them. They take it back to their company. Their company goes like, no, we're not doing this. This is a stupid idea. We can't do this. And that happens, I think, in a private sector. I've heard from a Number of companies that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company and the company says no, that violates our terms and conditions. We can't deliver on that basis. So you're dealing with someone who just doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side. A lot of people like that.

When you're making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying yes? Let's do it like, here's the deal points, here's what you want. Here's what I want. Okay, should we sign it right away? Should we give it 24 hours? Should we take it to our team? Should it be a week? You know what's kind of a standard?

You think unless you've got something in line ahead of time. The company name is a black swan group. Because we believe there's black swans in every negotiation, which is something you didn't know that as soon as you found out, it's going to change all the parameters. The deal.

Gotcha.

So you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns. And it's impossible to research all the unknowns plus a lot of the unknowns. I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you.

Right.

And I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes.

For example. What do you mean something you'd want to ask?

I'm speaking for a long time client and they have another firm that I've been affiliated with doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could suddenly reach back through my network to find out what the competing partnership firm of mine is, what they're charging. Or I could just flat out ask them. Well, I need to get the information. A lot of information you got to get by not asking. You got to trigger it. The phrase ask good questions, it's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know or if there are other ways, hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions.

What's the formula or process to get people to do things just because they feel like it.

Well, you know, it's really. It's gonna sound stupid. Yeah.

Smiling. Being nice.

So smiling Neuroscience. Behind a smile. If you smile at somebody, you actually hit their mirror neurons. You start a smile in Their brain.

Wow.

Smile is an involuntary response. A mirror neuron, mirror neurons in their brain. It's the same as if the doctor hits your knee with a little hammer and your leg kicks forward. You didn't choose to have your leg kick forward. It's an involuntary response. So somebody sees you and you smile, You've instantly hit their mirror neurons. You started a chemical change. Now, they might fight it. And sometimes you can give them three smiles.

Right.

By a third smile, you get them smiling too.

Yeah.

So you've already started the process. And then your inner voice betrays your outer voice when you say, how are you? To somebody at Starbucks? Your inner voice is saying, I'm trying to make your day better. I want you to be a happier person. They're gonna feel it. If your inner voice is saying, like, how are you today? I need my Starbucks coffee, and I.

Need to get out of here.

And I hate this line, and I hate how long. You guys. If that's in your voice, they're gonna feel that. They're gonna be pouring decaf in instead of the other kind. So your entire approach, the neuroscience, shows us the person is picking it up and responding. And so your body language, your tone of voice, the greatest negotiators in the world really maximize that, because it's an invisible skill.

Yeah, but it's in a skill you can teach. It sounds like.

And learn and learn. You can teach it. You can learn it. You can practice it. All you got to do is get your repetitions.

And.

John Foley's a Blue angel pilot. I heard him speak about four years ago. He talked about, how long does it take to build a habit? How much training do you need? He called it grooving a putting a groove in your brain. The Blue Angels, you know, they got to build their habits before they get up in the sky. Otherwise, the jets crash.

I was in a blue angel two years ago. It was crazy, man.

That had to been an adrenaline.

I threw up twice. I was sick the whole time and sick for three days afterwards was I, I've got a weak stomach. But it was unbelievable. At the same time, they needed to.

Know what they were doing.

Oh, for sure.

They can't learn up there, right?

Amazing to watch them so close, just, like feet away from each other at.

Mach 1 or however fast, 4 or 5, whatever.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah.

All right.

So Foley said, how do they get that good? They practice. He said, 63 to 64 repetitions to put it in your brain. And another guy wrote the talent code, Daniel Coyle. He talked about perfect practice. You could go excruciatingly slow as long as you do it right. And the first time you try any skill, you probably go slow. You come to one of the training sessions that my company puts on. I'm going to say, say this word for word, take your time, and then react in the moment. We have a. One of the negotiation tools is what we call a label. When I say something to you, I want you to label it. I don't care if you have to stare at me for 10 minutes.

Label it.

Label it. It seems like it sounds like it looks like a label is a verbal observation, but I need you to use those exact words. And if I say, I love teaching negotiations. Now label my emotion, your motion, the emotion that I displayed when I said I love teaching negotiations.

Label that.

What do you say? The three things it seems like it.

Sounds like or it looks like label.

Say all three of them.

Pick one of those three.

Say.

All right, I'm going to say it again, and I want you to say word for word, it sounds like and then fill in the blank.

Okay?

I love teaching negotiation.

It sounds like you love teaching negotiation.

Yeah.

Now that's enough. Now, to start with, what just happened is you demonstrated it perfectly, okay? Because the important part is you have to say the first three words that actually fires the brain. And you did exactly what I thought you would do was you said, it sounds like you fired the brain, and then you opened yourself up to whatever your brain put in. That's why I wanted you to actually say the words, the actual, specific words, because your brain will kick into gear and say something.

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Now your first label. Every time you fire the synapse, you get a little bit better. There's a substance called myelin. Your brain wraps a substance. It's an electrical synaptic connection in your brain. And anybody you know, if you know anything about electricity, every time you insulate.

It fires a little bit better.

Fire it 63 to 64 times, according to the blue angel pilot. And you get a nice circuit belt and it'll fire quickly and then you'll start to hear it. So we'll fire it again.

Okay?

And I want you to label it again. I love teaching negotiation.

Sounds like you love teaching negotiation, right?

Now dig a little bit deeper.

Explain it more.

No, no, no. Just another label, but use another adjective. It sounds like teaching. Sounds like X. I love teaching negotiation.

Sounds like you're passionate about.

There you go. See? Perfect.

Yeah.

Now you came up with another word. Now it stumped you for a second.

Yeah.

And you. You kicked in.

You.

You know, you. You let that supercomputer come up with another word and like, yeah, I am passionate about it. Now, interestingly enough, this is a way in a business negotiation because a great business deal is an alignment of core values, just like a great personal relationship is in alignment of core values. I'm sitting on a plane flying in here this morning. I found out more about the guy sitting on a plane next to me than he's told anybody in 20 years with the same kind of an exercise. What do you do for a living? What do you love about it? And when he tells me, I now know the guy sat next to on a plane. He's got an adopted daughter. She was adopted when she was six months old from China. His mother struggled with bipolar, manic depressive. She committed suicide at age 17. He was raised by his grandparents. His grandfather survived the Depression. His grandfather at one point in time, going into the depression, owned 11 banks that all went bankrupt. He had to start completely over again. His grandfather used to tell him, I lost 11 fortunes. His grandfather loved to live off the land. They love to make things by hand. This guy's a very successful contractor here in Los Angeles, and he's constantly, constantly, constantly working on improving himself. Married to his first wife. They're business partners.

They work together.

They work in different aspects of the business. I mean, I lost track of the number of things I found out about this guy. I know about this guy from when he was three years old to now. Now, in the space of what sounded like a normal social conversation, I know this guy's incredibly loyal. He's very practical, he's very hard working. I just flew in from Vegas. He was in Vegas because he was in a competitive poker tournament. He likes reading people. He's a very hard worker. From what I know from this guy, from what this perceived social conversation, I know that we could do business together. And if we run into trouble, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from him and how to deal with those problems. If we run into trouble with the very sort of the thing that you and I did just now, you know, you start.

So when he stuff out. So when you ask him a question and he says something, you would use one of those responses. It seems like it sounds like. What was the third one?

Yeah.

Or it feels like.

It feels like.

Looks like it could be. It looks like, because I might be reading your body, like it looks like.

You'Re not that interested into it, even though you said you were. Your body language tells me something different.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then, and then see if you see that in somebody's body language. Your point before about Starbucks, about actually seeing a person, the same thing is going on and they might not even know it. You know, every now and I get. People go like, yeah, you know, I've been struggling with this for a while. Really, I'm really conflicted about it. And they find themselves opening up because, you know, most of the time, if you see conflict in somebody, most people say, ah, it'll be fine, just keep working hard, it'll be fine. It's all part of the journey.

Right?

Instead of actually being a great sounding board for somebody and helping them sound it out, consequently learning a lot about that person.

At the same time, it sounds like you're going through a lot right now. Now it sounds like you're having a hard time with this.

It sounds like exactly or. And that's exactly right. And you start to become a tremendous sounding board for people.

So what happens to that person when you respond in one of those three or four ways of. It sounds like, feels like, looks like. What does that person feel on the other side when you're showing that type of compassion or empathy?

They feel connected with. They feel very connected with. They feel seen, you know, they feel like they're a person on the planet. They feel like suddenly they're not just another part of the thundering herd that nobody's Paying attention to. Yeah, they feel at least that last week we're doing a training with some. Some. Some pretty tough business people. And one of the guys in this exercise is saying, like, I found myself talking about stuff that happened when I was seven years old.

Wow.

He said, I gotta tell you something, I feel transformed right now. And so we stopped the group at that point in time and we said, all right, so now, based on Larry talking about that sort of a change, what kind of a guy is he to deal with? He's a pretty decent guy. Yeah. You now have gotten a glimpse into him as more as a total human being, which means if he does something that you perceive to be a negative move, he did it accidentally or you misinterpreted it, which means it's okay to go back to him instead of letting the rage build up in you because you misinterpreted something or did it by accident. He's a decent guy. If he slighted you, he did it by accident. You can go back to him and bring it up and say, hey, I gotta tell you, I got a problem with this. He's probably gonna open up because just based on his real. This three minute exercise you found out.

About, you opened up then. So you'd probably.

Yeah, he's a decent human being. And every human being is gonna hurt you, principally inadvertently. So you go back to him and find out what's behind it and make him aware, because they're going to want to know.

Yeah, every human being is going to hurt you.

Everybody, one way or another, is going to do something accidentally on purpose that's going to hurt your feeling. We're going to. We're going to interpret it as negative the vast majority of the time.

Yeah.

When in fact, it was probably a complete accident. There's a really good chance they got no idea they hurt your feelings.

Right.

You need to know which one it was. Did they do it on purpose? Do they know they did it? The numbers are that they did it by accident. And other numbers are there's a really good chance they didn't know they did it.

Right.

You know, I went.

I went to, you know, a landmark forum a couple years ago.

Yeah. Talking about making amends with people.

Talking to people have hurt you. And so one of the young ladies.

Did you go through the whole program?

Yeah, one of the young ladies in. It was like, you know, when I was seven, this a girl who's my cousin. You know, they bullied me. You know, he said something or hurt me. You know, it's 30 years I haven't let go.

Wow.

So we talked about it. They talked about it. And she said she went. She decided to go to the person and just. Because to forgive. To forgive is to let go. You know, not forgiving is like taking poisons and hoping the other person dies. Right. You've heard that.

Yeah.

So she goes to this girl and she says, I want you to know I forget. The girl didn't even remember. She got no memory. She was just being a stupid kid at the time. She had.

You know, they were stupid at seven, right?

Yeah.

They're.

They're.

They're joking around and they're.

And wow. So held onto it for that long.

30 years, the other person doesn't even know it. So by nature, we're joking around with somebody and we accidentally say something that wounded them. If they don't feel they can talk to us, they're going to carry it for 30 years.

Yeah.

If I heard. If I hurt somebody, I want to know.

Yeah.

You know, I. Because I'm gonna be like, I'm an idiot, you know? Yeah. I had no idea I did that to you.

Yeah.

I had no idea.

Was there anything from the emotional intelligence training at Landmark that added to your curriculum of negotiations that you didn't already know or use before?

Well, not, because it's all interwoven. The biggest thing that jumped out at me is it occurred to me that somebody hurt somebody else without even knowing they did it, like in a master class thing, you know, they did a great job. The master class people are phenomenal.

Yes.

So we're wandering into the very tail end of it, and they got me talking about this guy that bullied me when I was a kid.

You?

Yeah. Yeah.

And.

And I had.

I had.

I had literally never told anybody about this.

Wow.

So, you know, it's. And it happened when I was a little kid. I literally had never told anybody about.

It, not even through Landmark or anything else.

And they get it out of me in masterclass. They catch me off guard over it, you know, and it's to. To this day, this is one of the reasons why I hate bullies. You know, I want to become an FBI agent because, you know, we. We want to go after the bad guys, because the bad guys are bullies. And there's nothing I like better than getting a bully that's victimizing somebody else. And I think it was instilled in me in what happened when I was. When I was a kid. But then I started comparing that to this. This interaction. I heard a landmark where Somebody bullied somebody else, they didn't even know they did it. And then I began thinking about, like, how many people have I hurt that I didn't even know?

Right.

Like they would come up to me today and said, I've carried this for 40 years and I have to have done that to somebody.

Right. Have to. I know I have. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, you know, this, this forgiveness thing is a two way street. And all on also being, being, you know, who do I need to go back to that I could think of that I, and, and say, look, look, since I know that inadvertently I'm a.

Jerk.

Then I, what did I do? I'm sure I did something. I had to have done something. Then it's an, it's an interesting dilemma. All sort of part of, you know, being a better person anyway, which I know is what you're dedicated to.

It's almost, it seems like it's really hard, especially if you're a public figure that has an audience that you're gonna say something or do something that's going to offend or hurt someone.

Right.

At all the times.

Yeah.

It's like you're always going to be offending someone. If you have a voice, if you're sharing something, your point of view.

Right.

Your point of view is going to reach a certain audience's point of view, but not the rest of the world's point of view. So it's like you're always hurting people, aren't you?

Yeah.

And at some level you're like offending, hurting or frustrating.

And their hurt's going to be defensive in reaction.

Yeah.

Or they misinterpret. Or you, you hit a button with them that you didn't even, you had, maybe you didn't hit the button, but you came close to a button that's been hurt before.

Close.

And you know, and interestingly enough, we see this a lot with the procurement people that come to our training. I'm really careful to say, look, look, I know you guys fear procurement. And, and this is about dealing successfully with procurement. And we had one person in the training go, I work in procurement. And you criticized, you said procurement people were bad. I said, as a matter of fact, that's not what I said. But I came so close to your hot button that it hit it anyway.

Yeah.

And I spent some time with this woman and she was afraid that that was what I meant and, but didn't know how to approach me.

Yeah.

And when it came up subsequently, I said no, as a matter of fact, procurement has one of the most difficult jobs on the planet. You guys are both. You spend your days either herding cats or getting chased by villagers with pitchforks. Right. You know, it's one or the other.

Yeah.

And she was like, yeah, yeah, it's really tough. I was just afraid that that's what you meant. It was that amygdala that we were talking about before, the 75% negative.

Yeah.

We're all equipped with that. And when someone even comes close to a criticism, then we're afraid that that's what they mean and they're hurt.

How do you take criticism?

Not well.

I've never really been good at it until. I wouldn't say I've mastered it. I think I've gotten better over the last six years. I started to really, like, say, okay, let me not react to this criticism. Like they probably have some good intention. They're trying to tell me, and maybe there's some truth there. So let me start to listen to the feedback or the criticism and say, okay, how can I be better? Is there any truth in there that really resonates, or are they coming from a place of anger of their own thing?

Criticism is mostly fear driven by the person criticizing. Right? Yeah, yeah. And you criticize that. In point of fact, you've been hurt, you've been disappointed, you've been frustrated. You know, there's a lot of sayings that, you know, never take advice from anybody. You wouldn't trade places with. Criticism is a form of advice. But you're afraid to tell people how to do stuff. So you just criticize what they do some people. And then they get. It becomes an addiction for some people. Criticism is not a great behavior. I know you've heard the phrase, nobody's doing better than you will ever criticize you.

Right.

They'll mentor you.

Right.

So first of all, how do I take criticism?

It.

I got to take a step back and understand if somebody's coming at me with just a criticism, Even if they ask permission to criticize, they got some. They got struggles that are worse than mine. Right.

And if they ask you to give you criticism, I'm.

I be. You know, they are an open wound at that point. So I'm not gonna. I'm going to say, yeah, sure, go ahead.

Right.

I'm gonna. They've already told me they're probably coming from a difficult place.

Gotcha. Gotcha.

So what I'm going to try to do is just kind of take it easy on them and understand where they're coming from. A blog I'm a big fan of Eric Barker, writes this great blog, Barking.

Up the Wrong Tree.

That's great.

Eric told me one time, for every, every hater, there's going to be 10 people that are on your side. So when a critic comes up to me, I see that as there are 10 people, you're indicating to me that I'm successful with nine other people. And I'm not going to get down on this person because it's very easy to get down on them because unfortunately they're coming from a negative place.

Yeah, gotcha. That's good enough. What's a role playing exercise that anyone can do with a friend that would make them a better negotiator?

Try to get whoever you're talking to to say the magic two words. That's right. Which means you got to summarize where they're coming from. If you, in, in any given interaction, if you got a point you want to make. Yeah. Before you make it your trigger, you're not allowed to make your point.

So give me an example. And you want the other person you're role playing with to say, that's right.

Okay. So you were telling me about critics.

Yeah.

You're a high profile guy. You're about helping other people, which means you get criticized a lot.

That's right.

And when you get criticized, I mean, I, you know, I wouldn't say you're empathic, although you are. I would say you're probably more compassionate. Those are two different things. Empathy is. You have to have empathy to be compassionate. But empathy is not compassion. Compassion is the next step. Empathy is a compassionate thing to do, genuinely understanding somebody. But there's a real fine line there that distinct things. And I think you have a tremendous amount of compassion for people. So you know that when someone criticizes you, they're attacking you. But you also know that they've been hurt and they're struggling. So you want to know how to respond to them and have them better as a result of the interaction instead of coming back and making them feel worse. And you struggle with that because you're under attack and you try not to, try not to fire back at them.

Right? Yeah, that's right. So you want to have a conversation with someone.

If you could summarize their point of view. First summarize the other person's. Would you summarize the other. What the other person's struggling with in.

Any type of deal making, in any type of deal, business deal, relationship, buying coffee, upgrading, whatever it is. Right before the interview continues. If you feel like you're not living your most authentic life, not leaning into your purpose and not living the life that your future self would be extremely proud of. I've written a new book called the Greatness Mindset and I think you're going to love this. Through powerful stories, science backed strategies and step by step guidance, the Greatness Mindset will help you overcome all the different challenges in your life to design the life of your dreams and then turn it into your reality. Make sure to click the link below in the description to get your copy today. Okay, let's get back to this video. So how do we learn to reframe our mind or rewire our mind and so that we can have inner peace when there is trauma or pain around us?

Brilliant question. It's a skill that we learn. So that's really nice to know. The sooner it is never too late to start, but the sooner we start, the better. So I have four adult children, they learnt this, they grew up with this stuff and as I've learned new things, they've been my lab rats. So they've been trained and literally at my husband and they all work for me by the way.

They're either, they're either all amazing kids or messed up kids.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to ask that question. Well, Dominique's my producer so I think she's sort of doing okay there. But yeah, no, the thing, the biggest thing with the mind and managing mind Lewis is to accept that depression, anxiety, even the scary words like bipolar and schizophrenia and then going to the more sort of things like that we can accept grief, anger, etc, these are not illnesses. This is the biggest message that I probably have. The second biggest, the first is that mind is the source and if you don't get mind right everything else, you can read all the great books you want and go to all the great seminars and self help, but unless your mind is right, you won't even use that stuff. It's just data. And so there's another step missing and it's understanding that autonomy, that sense of agency that we have to manage what's going on around us and to accept part of mind management is not to make the bad stuff go away, but to know how to live in the bad stuff because it's not going away. So despair, anger, depression, anxiety, these are all completely normal responses. In fact they're very helpful. They're helpful messengers and warning signals as opposed to being scary illnesses. They are not neuropsychiatric brain diseases like we've been told they are actually responses. And because they are responses of our mind in, in the world, we only use our brain and body to express them. Because we've got the mind has to have the brain and body to, you know, build the thoughts, then we use that to speak. We're using our physical to store what we've processed and to convert and then to speak. So obviously if our mind's a mess, our brain and our body will be a mess. But because our brain's neuroplastic and if we manage our mind, we can change our brain, we can change our DNA literally. That's what I've shown in my research. You can literally change your DNA, your blood markers, literally, if you change your mind. If you change your mind, you can immediately influence your biomarkers. So for example, if you in acute trauma, for example, and you go just, okay, let me explain it in a very simple way. I've been testing out a glucose continuous glucose monitoring device and for some research purposes and I happened to, while I was wearing it, because you wear it and then, you know, you track your levels. And I wanted to see, for, in terms of mental health and the neuro cycle that I've developed, I wanted to see the impact and I happened to be going through experience a very acute trauma in our family over December. And in the moment of the trauma, I happened to see on my glucose monitor that my glucose had shot up to 240. Now that's heart attack level. And I immediately managed my mind through the neurocycle, which is the concept that I've developed, which is just a system, anyone can learn it. And I dropped my glucose levels within seconds back down to a normal level. And as it cycled up, it cycled, I could manage it. And if glucose is at that level, your cortisol's shot up at that level, your DHEA has dropped, your homocysteine. All that means is that your immune system is going crazy. Exactly. You've got a cytokine storm like we talk with COVID And in fact your, your brain's immune system and your body's immune system will recognize that traumatic event or that established trauma or that mismanagement of whatever, that it will recognize that as an invader, like a virus, like Covid. So you get the same response to a mind thing, a thought, which is the consequence of mind. Think, feel, choose, you build thoughts. Thoughts are made of roots and trees, branches, which are the memory. So thoughts are made of memories, like trees are made of branches. And this is toxic, it will stimulate the same response in the immune system. As if I had Covid or if I had a flu virus, or if I had measles or something, or any kind of damage in my body, the immune system sees that as threatening survival. Because we, we are wired for survival. So this is not survival. So your immune system says, hey, that's a threat, let's send out the army. T lymphocytes, B lymphocytes, macrophages, let's go fix this thing. And it creates inflammation, which is a temporary state of healing. So initially inflammation is to isolate. Exactly, isolate. And then you're supposed to, you know, fix this up and sort this out and find the root cause and then this goes away and then the anti inflammatory factors come in and the inflammation goes away. But if we don't deal with the stuff and we don't deal with our past traumas and we don't deal with those patterns in our life that we are enacting, that the constant arguments or these certain, you know, we all have these toxic patterns, no one's immune. And the signals of those are things like depression and anxiety. And those are simply telling you, hey, there's a pattern. It's either trauma based pattern or it's a toxic habit you've developed. But that pattern is actually putting your body under tremendous stress even to the point where your DNA is affected. And I showed in my research that if you think of the DNA ladder, if you pull out a chromosome, it looks like an X. And where you see my fingernails, pink fingernails. For those of you that are listening, the pink fingernails would then represent what we call telomeres. And telomeres are a proxy for how you are managing your mind. Very interesting.

So aren't they also based on how long you'll live as well if the ponies are longer?

Exactly. Totally correct.

So once you're under attack and dying, you're probably physically going to die as well.

Exactly, that's exactly what I showed. So we had subjects at the beginning of, in my clinical trial that I put in this book, we had subjects and I've actually got a picture of this person's, one of the subjects brains, this is inside, looking inside their brain. And the blue represents someone who's totally depressed. Flatline, brain flatline, literally. And this person's, all their biomarkers were up there in cortisol, inflammation, etc, but this shows that the energy levels in the brain are very flat. Blue means a very, very depressed. And this person was, their narrative was tremendous torment in their life. They were offline, they were battling with Work, relationships, a lot of stuff.

Everything was off.

Everything was off. Sleep, you name it. They were at like ready to check out.

What page is this on?

This is on page I should tell you. I should know the page of my heart 161.

Okay, cool.

You've probably got it in black and white in that version that you've got there. So this person's telomeres, when we looked at their DNA and we looked at their telomeres, they will tell you how the shorter they are, the weaker your cells, the shorter your life span, the more vulnerable you are to disease. So they were sitting. So that will show in terms of your biological age. So their telomeres were short and unhealthy. They, their ages were in the of this particular subject. And we had a group like this as well that similar. They the biologic. The chronological. The actual age was in their mid-30s, but they biological age 70 or something. Yes, a sickly 70 year old crazy with crazy within 9 weeks of mind management. Note I didn't work on. I don't use drugs. I do talk about diet and stuff. But in this particular clinical trial it was pure mind management. Just the neurocycle. Just get your mind under control. And that gray means that the brain stabilized, that the brain waves that they were actually managing. So here they were saying, I am depression, I am hopeless. All the biomarkers, DNA here they're saying, I now know why I feel depression. I'm not depression. I now know why. And depression is simply a signal of an underlying cause. It's not who I am. It's not an it, it's not an illness by 63 days. And these numbers are very significant. They were actually seeing behavior change in their life. They were saying, okay, so I know I'll still get depressed, but I know why and I know what to do. And there was changes in their behavior. They were back at work, they were back sleeping. 25% improvement in sleep. And I mean all kinds of like the relationships not suicidal anymore. And I mean that's. I can go on and on and on. Wow. This subject over here was in the control group. So they got no mind management. And what you'll see is a lot of red and a lot of chaos. And that red shows complete brain. That is like a tsunami in your brain which the biomarkers were terrible. This person's DNA telomeres were very short. And so with mind management in nine weeks we showed how you can literally change your telomeres which are your markers for aging and for health. Mental Health and physical health. That's pretty unusual because most of the work on telomeres is. Has been done around diet and exercise, which are very similar.

Like, you know, leafy greens and plant based.

Exactly. Which is significant. And also there's been some work on meditation, but there's been. No, I think this is the first study that's been done on actually doing deliberate, intentional mind work to change. And then we saw significant drops as well in inflammation markers and blood markers and. But the biggest thing was the narrative, the person's story. So if we go away from the biology for a minute and we listened to the person's story, that person was offline, they were online, they were living again. And even though. And they had also had this acceptance and this is what I wanted to kind of circle back to when you started was life and managing your mind doesn't mean that it's going to be one big rosy, you know, put on rose tinted glasses. That's crazy. It is actually the ability to be okay and at peace with having moments of depression and actually looking for the message and seeing them as helpful. We have this really weird philosophy, which has been about 40 years in the west now, where we look at depression and anxiety and those kind of things as illnesses and neuropsychiatric brain diseases and as bad symptoms that we must suppress, like cancer symptoms, you must suppress. So it's been lumped. Our misery of life has been medicalized, to quote a brilliant psychiatrist and Joanna Moncrief. So we've got to really watch out for that. But actually, the real truth is that those depression and anxiety are not illnesses. They are just survival instincts. It's telling you, hey, pay attention, there's something going on. You need to go, and something's not.

Working, something's not working, something's not working.

And it's manifesting as a pattern that needs to be addressed and that'll block the greatness.

So are you saying. Am I hearing. Did I hear you say that there isn't a mental health disease? It's more of just a pattern or something that we should be mindful of. But it's not an actual disease.

No, it's not a disease. And I know this counters the current philosophy, but if you look at the science, there's a large body of science. In fact, if you interpret all the science around this field and you really look at what's being tested, you actually will see it's not a. They've been looking for the neurobiological correlates. They've been Looking for where in the brain is depression. And for years we've been told about the serotonin imbalance causing depression. I mean, that's not even a theory. Never proven, great for marketing for, you know, for selling drugs. And also the simplistic way of telling someone, hey, you're depressed, don't worry, it's chemically imbalanced. Let me give you a drug to fix it. You know, we want this quick fix mentality. So as medicine has advanced and technology has advanced, so we've become very caught up in the quick fix. But life's not like that. Mind is not like that. Mind is separate from brain and body. You can apply that kind of thinking, not quick fix, but you can apply a symptomatic diagnosis, treatment, approach to body, to physical brain and body. But when it comes to mind that, that there's this gravitational field, this force, this think, feel, choose thing, it's not going to go, you know, medication is not going to change how you're thinking, feeling and choosing. It's not going to get rid of this. It's just going to numb your brain. So maybe you don't feel this for it while it's working, but at the same time as then when that drug weighs off, this is still there. This is still being recognized by the immune system of your brain as a problem. So this is increasing your vulnerability. The longer it's there, the more you increase your vulnerability to disease. Oh my gosh, you know, and this is what gets you stuck. And these are the patterns. So no, it's not an illness. It is a normal human response. Here we all know that everyone's going on about the next pandemic is mental health. Mental health has always been an issue. From the beginning of time. Mankind has battled with life, with issues, with death, with fighting with war, with whatever. So mental health's not on the rise. But the mismanagement of mental health, making it a disease has created a whole new problem. So here, so here we sit with before the pandemic they started doing a population study in the mid-90s. And this is when I was still practice, early days of my practicing, sort of 10 years into my work and I started seeing this trend of, and, and I was watching the study where people were with the decades long trend of people living longer. So we know, we all hear this message. What, this is what we've heard. People are living longer because of the advances in medicine and technology. None of us question that. But something happened in 96 that did start questioning that by the mid 2000s. It was an established, researched fact that we don't live longer anymore, that the trend of people living longer has actually reversed and that we have a pandemic of deaths of despair where people are dying from preventable lifestyle diseases and the age group most being affected but are between 24 and 65. So people at the beginning of their career, in the prime of their career and through that, that age group are being, are dropping down dead like flies. And it's death considered deaths of despair by preventable lifestyle diseases. So we have to look at the lifestyle disease means that there's something in our body that's, that's weaker. Why Lifestyle which is mind driven. How am I eating, drinking, sleeping. But more than that is what's my mind behind all of that? How am I actually managing the day to day moments? How am I managing the patterns, the traumas, the established toxic habits? What am I doing about that stuff? And that's when we ignore all of that because this current trend of science is saying, oh those don't matter. What matters is the symptoms. Let's just look for the symptoms, checklist, diagnose, label. When you label someone, you chop up to 10 years more of their life. You know, it's like it's adding on. They've shown studies, but people with a mental health diagnosis have chopped their 20 years off, up to 20 years off their lifespan. People on psychotropic drugs because of all the complications and the changes in the brain and the body, chopping up to 25 years of their life. I mean this is serious. So here we had this already existing. Then the pandemic hits, now another year, they say that there's an additional year being chopped off people's lives. But there's such a contradiction because they're saying, hey, there's this adverse circumstance, grief of loss of people, uncertainty, medical and not knowing if you're going to live or die and how long is this isolation going to go on and economic impact and whatever the whole lot that's trauma. And they're saying that when they're saying, but this is the way to treat it, let's label it, let's diagnose this, let's medicate it. So here we've come into Covid with a problem with that stupid philosophy that's created such a lot of problems. And scientifically this is all being researched and shown and now we've got the pandemic and now they want to carry on that system that didn't work to this, which is going to make it even worse. So we've got to shift our narrative completely and we've got to stop. Stop saying that mental illness is on the rise and that there's 1 in 4 people on antidepressants who are depressed. 100% of people are depressed and anxious and concerned about this COVID pandemic. 100% of people in the world at some point in their life have and will be anxious and depressed and in grief and sadness and terror and disorder. And one of the others, a large percentage of the population, and I'm not sure the exact percentage because no one's really done this kind of research, but estimates it's probably 30, 40% of people will have extreme trauma from abuse, war trauma, that kind of stuff, where they'll go down the continuum to sort of the minus 9, 10, 8, 9, 10. If you look at a continuum of 0 to 10, 0 to minus 10, and have things like psychotic breaks and hearing voices and extreme states of distress, mental distress, which are still not diseases. They are simply in that traumatic situation, you're having a traumatic response. Think of someone who's a war vet. I just interviewed a Navy SEAL the other day who was trained snipers. And I mean the things that he had to do and that his teams had to do, you know, they come back and try and we all know the problem of trying to, you know, reconcile back into civilian life after you've got, I mean, you know, this is what they experiencing all day long stuff that's completely against survival, completely against our human nature. And now they, instead of them being allowed to process this trauma, they're coming back and being told that they diseased. And he would tell me that what they do with a lot of. We don't hear this sort of thing, but he told me this. They will inject things like risperidol, which is an antipsychotic into the spines of war vets because they're a bit psychotic and they psychotic for a reason. It's their coping. How do you deal with this? Of course you're going to be angry, you're going to be frustrated, you're not going to be able to love like you did. You have to be able to embrace, process and reconceptualize. Giving them a drug is not going to make it, not going to help it. In fact, it constrains the brain, it restricts the brain. You can't, there's no chemical cure for that. That's not, that's just going to add fuel to the fire because your mind's got to work through the brain. So now you put chemicals in, and now that's not going to. That's not going to facilitate change. We have to do something. So it's like a narrative.

Do you feel like there. I mean, is there such a thing as a chemical imbalance in some people? You know, when they say, oh, I have a depression, it's a disease, or bipolar, or I have this mental health disease, or I have a chemical imbalance, I was treated with this. Don't try to say I don't because this is who I am. Is that. Do some people have that or is that.

That's a result of.

Go ahead.

The narrative of I have a chemical imbalance and my depression is from chemical imbalance is a narrative. That is the only explanation that people have been given. They're not given an alternative reaction. I mean, an alternative narrative. So the most important thing is that anyone listening to this podcast, I want to validate your depression, your anxiety, your grief, your despair, your ptsd. Whatever label you've been given, I want you to. I want to validate that. That doesn't need to be validated with a disease label. You're not diseased. You're not a broken brain. You aren't. Your brain isn't effective. You are going through something. So you aren't something. You aren't that. You are going through something.

You're experiencing something.

You're experiencing something and you're experiencing. And you've coped in the only way that you could cope in that moment. So it created this adverse response because it was an adverse situation and you were just trying to cope. So what we have to do is go through a process of embracing and processing and reconceptualizing. So the important thing here is to recognize that chemical imbalance isn't the cause of your distinction despair. The cause of your despair is what you've gone through and what you're going through and learning how to. Not knowing how to manage it and how to deal with those thoughts that are driving you crazy and those flashbacks and the trauma of the flashbacks and going back into those situations of the rape or the abuse or the war trauma or the. That it will drive a person crazy. And that's not crazy in the sense of illness. It's crazy in the sense of your mind is like this erratic tidal wave around you and it's going through your brain and you've got these and your immune system and everything screaming out you and saying, hey, let's fix this. So a disease label invalidates it. And for A moment. It might be nice to know, okay, well, there's a label to how I feel because it kind of gives us a bit of. Feels like we've got a bit of control. So initially that gives you comfort, but don't see yourself as that. It's better to say I'm experiencing post traumatic stress issues because of what I've been through versus I am ptsd, or I had the sickness of ptsd. It's better to say I'm experiencing symptoms of bipolar, these intense swings because of my whole story than saying I have bipolar, I have a chemical imbalance. I mean, just researchers coming out the other day showed that we've got to stop saying this. The top psychiatrist that lead this field will tell you we've got to stop saying this, that these. There's no ways that serotonin imbalance, you can't even measure that. There's no gene for. There's no genes or serotonin imbalance causing it. It's what you've experienced that's the cause. And then that moves through your brain and your body. So obviously your brain and your body respond. So we will see changes in the brain and the body. We will see neurochemical chaos. Not necessarily serotonin imbalance. That's just one. Sometimes it's dopamine. And if dopamine's down, serotonin is often then in anandamides, often. I mean, I can give you a list of big chemical terms, and that's going to change every function in the structure of your brain and your DNA and your telomeres and 1400 neurophysiological responses are off. So, you know, that's the response, though. And that doesn't mean that you have this thing hidden inside of you, the scary thing that's controlling you. And that invalidates. If someone comes back from war, someone's had a sexual trauma, to tell them that the depression or anxiety they're feeling is an illness is an insult to what they've gone through. But if I say. If I say to you, gosh, that's terrible, tell me about it. I want to hear your story. I want to support you. Your depression and anxiety that you're feeling is a signal that there's stuff going on. There's an origin story, there's a source. So can I listen? Can I help? Can I support you in trying to recognize the signals and go through the process to find the origin story and then to reconceptualize it? And that takes time. It's not a 15 minute appointment where I can give you a label that takes time, that's not also not the conditioning kind of treatments that are in place, that some of them work if they're used in the right place. But to try and. To try and put a veteran who's gone through something back into the situation to try and condition them. You can't condition. You have to reconsider construct. So it's kind of like an algebraic equation. X is. Is the situation. Y is how you should want. You want to function for mental peace. So you've got X plus Y. And so here we are in our X situation where we are the sort of human experiencing life. We're supposed to be at Y. And you put the two together. And what the current treatment says is that, okay, now we're going to create Z, we just going to ignore X and Y. We're going to create a new thing. And that new thing is udz. But that doesn't work. It's actually X plus Y equals xy. X is what you're going through. Y is where you want to find mental peace.

What are those few things that you would see? We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen, social cues or behaviors?

So it's interesting. Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the lie detector. Like, you just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Louis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Like typically the. The lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation, and as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the US Secret Service. We'll make you a recruiter.

Okay, give it to me.

And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to. I say to you, Lewis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at. Are there any shifts? Are any changes? Do you change the direction?

No.

People are usually not that obvious. You know, they're. But you can see. You can see something. You can feel it. It's also feeling people. I think that gets dismissed quite a bit that it's not just see here, you know, it's like it's also. You can feel. Feel another human being. Yeah, you can. And it's intuitive. And you. We should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that Down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions? The same way is your, you know, let's say if I said, louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions, and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, louis, did you. Have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now, something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay. He said, no, no, no, for everything else. But here he said, absolutely not.

Interesting.

Why is it a bit more emphatic?

He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth? He doesn't want that to be.

But I will notice that it's different that you did something different. Even if you. Now, it could be a very subtle thing, or you might not give me anything. There are some people, and I've had those people where it's just like poker.

Face all the way through some people.

But they'll. I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case, and they're guarding their. The truth really hard, and you have to try to figure out what that is. Or some people come in and it's. I swear to God, God. God knows I would never do such.

A thing on my grave.

Those are usually red flags. Unless it's a culture or person who typically does it. If so, if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language. Or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit. But if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for. Rather than. We have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like, everybody does this, everybody does that. Now, are these things I'm talking about indicators? They. They are, but you may do them and I may not. I may do something else.

What do you do when you lie?

What do I do when I lie?

We all lie at something, right?

We do. I do. I do.

Small or big?

My husband's like, did you, you know, have a donut this morning? No, I don't have a donut.

What do you lie about? The most professional or personal? And what in each. Each category?

Maybe, like, if I'm mad because I have a pretty. I have a pretty bad temper. So it's like oh, no, I'm fine. You know, and I'll. Because sometimes I'll know. I'm like, you know, I have a temper, and sometimes I know I'm being irrational, and I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm okay. I'll leave it. Because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think, what do I. I lie about maybe work if it's a project I don't want to do. But usually that's what you have agents and managers for, because they do it for you.

Sure.

They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it. Like, usually for me, it's like. Because I'm like a. You know, I like donuts and I like things. Cookies. So my husband's like a health fanatic. So, like, how'd you eat today? You know, this was okay. I was pretty solid, you know. Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to say.

Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time?

No, I don't. I've never. I've not come across that. But I think. Here's the thing. It's okay to lie because. Have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with a person and then felt afterward? You know, I don't. You feel a bit exposed, and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person afterward. You kind of have that remorse, because we feel like it's a. It's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so I may. And it may not be a lie. So by omission. So in a meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking. Talking about something, I don't like it, or I don't like the direction it's going. I may not say I don't like this. I may say, thank you. You know, let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to say, no way, I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that. That technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you, and let me think about that. But I know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have to protect your time, your space, Energy.

Yeah.

And that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly. No is mean. No is hurtful. So I can say, thank you so much. I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that. Find alternative ways to let people down.

Why is that?

Want to preserve the relationship?

Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally.

It stings, right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way, and it just. It depends. Like, do you care about the relationship? And if you do, your no, your hard no can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm going to think of a different way to say no. That's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So, for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, louis, you're a liar, or, louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, louis, I know you're not being truthful with me, Louis, you're holding something back for me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We don't. We throw our words out, and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads. Heads, wondering, why did this conversation not go well?

It's.

This person's the problem when we don't have the ability to think about, how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you want to say no to this, you want to think of a great way to say no. Do we want to think about, how do we let people down without hurting their identity? Going back to identity.

Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the truth?

Oh, my God. You just reminded me of this case.

You're just like, I know this person's lying to me. But at the end of the day, everything said was pretty true or almost 100%.

This was.

I've never.

I had. It was such a simple case. And it was. It was not even for a lot of money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs and he was taking. Stealing money. Somebody would Go in, use their credit card. He come from behind. Take money, very simple, on the atm.

Like, put them up with, like, a gun or something.

No, no, no. Just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine. So when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well. And then you could go. There's all these different scams, so. But when you go to the atm, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him, his face. He's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy.

All right.

You know, I've got it. All I gotta do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat.

Wow.

So I start speaking to him. I don't take out my evidence. Right. Because I'm saving that. Because you knew this is a slam dunk. This is a slam dunk. I was like. And he didn't even steal a lot. $500. It was something small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And, sir, you took the money. No, no, miss, I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this. So I'm doing this with him for, like, 15 minutes, and this is a mistake on my part.

We have evidence. We have proof. We have, you know, video footage of.

You giving him everything. No, never me. Never me. And I pull out. I think I'm being slick, and I pull out my photo of him. Boom. Right on the table. Who's that, sir? Right? And I'm sitting there, I'm all smug. I'm like. I got this guy. And he takes it and he looks at it. He's like, looks like me? Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me. I was like, what? That's you? He's like, it looks like me. That's not me. Same hat. New York Knicks hat.

The guy wearing the hat right now.

Yeah. No. And I. It was a craziest interview. And I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.

Why?

Less guilt.

Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically.

Yes.

They might have hurt them financially.

Yes. I'm at home. I'm sitting behind my computer. I'm in My fuzzy slippers.

Yeah.

Or even if I'm doing it at the atm, I'm not stealing from you. I'm stealing from the bank. Yeah, but it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's. There's that level of guilt when. When it's money and especially if you steal it from an institution. Zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get, but, yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget. I started.

Was it him or was it not him?

It was him. We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get. It's always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence, you've got this.

The person said it, but he never agreed to it.

No, no.

He said it looks like me, but it's not me.

No, same New York snake hat.

Yeah.

I don't know. I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just. Nothing. And you could see his face. Looks like me. I got nothing from him.

Really?

Yeah.

So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact him.

Who was him? I mean, we had evidence, we had prints, all that stuff. But, yeah, no, he, you know, to the end. No, not me.

Could you tell, like.

I couldn't tell.

You couldn't tell he was lying or not?

I couldn't tell. No. He was so believable. But I knew going in that he was my guy.

Right.

So that's why I was like, I know it's him, but it was just, like, stoic. And there's a moment, I'm like, is it not him?

Right?

They're so good. You're like, my scene is right. Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him, it's him, it's him. No, no, this is you.

So some people are that good.

Some people are that good. They will. Some people. And I think this is. Look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes. And he was used to it.

He was used to get out of it.

So certain people who are. Who lie a lot usually become better at it, or they. Or they don't feel bad. It becomes. Become better at masking it. You obviously have a great conscience, and so it bothered you. And so all your tells were shown. You couldn't conceal it.

Yes.

Your heart is bumping. Like, your chest is tight, your throat is clenching.

You're like it bothered you.

Yeah.

Which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you. We tend to see in people who are. Who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care.

What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of? Maybe. Or people believed you and more than just, oh, I'm having a good day. Lie.

You know what I did? I could probably confess to this. This was so long ago. I went and got. It was back in the day, I got a money order from Western Union, the post office.

Post office.

And, you know, I was, like, young. I was a kid. I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like, 399. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see 499, and I'm like, oh, 100 bucks. 100 bucks. And I took it. And to this day, I remember it. It bothered me.

Really?

Yeah, it bothered me.

Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys gave me money?

No, I took the money. Yeah, I took the money.

It bothered you that you lied about it?

Set your limitations? I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was. I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story. We went.

Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something like money when you were younger?

You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview? I'll tell you that I. When I applied for the job, when I went to. When I went to college, my parents and I love my family. They weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. Like, they didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it.

Right.

And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork to go to college. Yeah, they didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own, but either way. And so I lied. When I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid? And so I went back to the school later on, and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out. I. Yep, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph.

I was like, you told them this is what happened.

I said, I lied to get financial aid because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me the tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree with my decision to go to this school to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life. I was just like. I was like, I'm going to college.

Yeah.

And I lied. But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something, actually. I said it before they hooked me up, and I said, look, I did. I lied about this. I did this. You know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school, so I was okay. I got the job.

Wow. How many things did you tell. Did you confess to before you took the polygraph?

That was my biggest thing.

Yeah.

That was my thing. Drugs. Like, I didn't. I never had. I. Despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it of that around me, and the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably would have been the opposite. If nobody did it. I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans.

I'm sure it's fine.

Yeah, I paid back all my loans.

When you're. When you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview with any situation. What's the best way to build command authority and credibility?

Yeah. So you can do very simple things, like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right, so I'm in this subtle way, I'm telling you to go to the bathroom, and you're gonna go because of the way I said, why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go. Before we get started. Right. You just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink? Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to drink.

We're gonna be here for a little bit. Have some drink.

So now I'm planting these little seeds, telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where. Where to sit. Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics.

Where would you like to sit?

Yeah, where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later. You're going to try to push me on something later.

I gave you something now. The law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

Exactly. But also autonomy, though it's not. It's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control. Because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control. I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control and where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it. We can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? I never wanted an innocent person to confess to a crime they never committed.

Oh, man, that's sad.

And I was always very, very, very careful. I actually aired on this side.

This is.

I actually aired more so on the side. I gave more people benefit than the other way around. Because to me, it was worse to.

Have someone in jail who didn't do it.

Yes.

That is, like, the worst thing. It's got to be the horrible for that person.

That was like, something that I was very, very, very aware of.

How many people you think are in prison or jail for something they didn't do? Right now?

I think quite a few. And I think we see it when you look @ now, the DNA testing that we do, the scientific testing that we do to see who gave false confessions, to see how people were manipulated and maneuvered. And it's not. It's not always because the interviewer is bad is because they tend to think again. Law enforcement tends to think most people are deceptive. You come in. Lewis is my guy. I know Louis is my guy. So now, no matter what you say, My, my. Even when you're trying, even when you are saying things that are. Are showing your innocence, I'm still focused on, you did it. So it's confirmation bias. No matter what you say, I'm gonna make it fit the narrative I want, which is, you did it. So that was a. A very important thing, because I had seen it. I knew, yeah, that's tough how you could do it. And I had people in the room, if they're young, if they're mental health issues, or sometimes you get people in weak moments, or sometimes people see you. Your law enforcement, you're. You're the authority, your police. I'm supposed to trust you. And they do. And they don't realize that the law allows for police and law enforcement to use deception in the room to get you to confess. It is legal. So I could say to you, what if. What if I told you I have fingerprints? Oh, I got no fingerprints. What if I told you I have fingerprints? What if I told you that? What would you say? I'm lying. I'm using manipulation. And so some of that stuff, it's not. You know, there's a lot of research and science on this now. Like, it's not good. You don't. You don't want to lie to people. You want to try to stay. You really want to try to read them, understand them, and just get them to talk to you. And that's also important, not just with solving cases, but when you interview victims and witnesses. Sometimes the inability to interview somebody properly affects whether a case gets solved or not. So if I don't know how to effectively interview a witness or a victim, I can get bad.

Information. How tall are.

You?

5.

2. 5 2. Mighty 5 2. When you went into.

The, when.

You went to be an agent, I'm assuming it was a lot of men when you were there in the start, is that correct? Mm, much taller, bigger in general, right? More than five'.

Two?

Yeah. Did you ever feel insecure or intimidated or a lack of self confidence being in the position you were.

In? No. And I don't know if it was maybe my dad, like, even though my parents, like, I had certain issues, but I don't know. Like, I never thought about that. I never went in thinking I shouldn't be here. I never went in, oh, I'm a woman. I went, I'm like, oh man, I'm the only woman. Good for me. I really had a different mindset. I was proud that, oh my God, there's only, like, there's no other women. I'm like, good for me. If I went to a meeting, yes, I was proud of that fact. So I never looked at it as a negative. Why I'm the only woman. I was just like, I was just like, good job. So that's how I took it. And I, I was proud of that. And so that kept me going. I didn't think about my gender. I. I just did my job. And if, and look, will people treat you differently? Will that stuff happen? Yes, it will. Whether it's gender, race, that stuff happens. I don't care what anyone says, it happens. But I cannot alter myself and I cannot let you, who I know you're wrong anyway, impact me and not. And not do my job well, because now psychologically you're in my head. I remember I went to. I usually don't share these stories, but I went to the Air Force Academy in Colorado. President Obama was going to go speak, and I was the agent in charge of the outside perimeter of the stadium. And then I was there with several other agents and we're meeting the head person that he was a colonel. Lieutenant colonel. Colonel in the Air Force. I don't remember. So it's me. All male agents. There's about several of.

Us. You were in.

Charge. I was in charge of the outer perimeter. Yes. I was one of the two people in charge. There was. The other agent was in charge of the inner perimeter. Then everybody else worked for us. Not worked for us. They were supporting.

Us.

Yes. And so the Colonel comes and he comes in, and so let's say, you know, here's. Here's everybody. Here are all the agents. I'm in the middle. And the Colonel comes, and he's like, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. This legit happened. I'm right.

Here. And it's like, no, he did.

Not. Nice to meet.

You. He skipped.

You. Nice. He skipped me. And you were in charge, and he was. You know, it shouldn't have even.

Mattered.

Right. And so it took everything in me to not be like. To not blow.

Up. Went over.

Your. He went, no, he did not. Skipped me. He skipped.

Me. The guy next to you. You. And then the.

Two. He assumed I was either a.

Secretary. Oh.

Wow. Or staff or something. Because he's like, hey, let me talk to the other. Oh, wow. I remember that. And I was just like this. Just. Guy do this. I'm like, this guy just did this. You know, I'm having an internal dialogue with me. I said nothing. I said nothing. I was like, doesn't matter. I was like, he's gonna find out who's in charge in a couple hours. And he did. Hi, I'm the agent in charge of your outer perimeter. Who's my counterpart and who do I speak.

To? So you didn't take it.

Personally? I didn't look dumb. He looked dumb, I think. Why would I take it personally if somebody is ignorant enough to do that? And why would I want that person's attention or respect? I. In my mind, I was just like, you can keep all of.

That.

Right. I'm gonna go get. Do my.

Job. I'll do my.

Job. Yeah, that's exactly. So I. You can't. At least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like, I have a job to do. I have a mission to do. And if I get people. If I allow somebody to get in my head, people will die. No, I'm not doing.

That. Right. Were you ever nervous in interviews or.

Interrogations? In the beginning, I was worried about. I was worried about not being respected. I was worried about. Because I didn't want to be an interrogator. I did not want to be.

One. Not being respected by the perpetrator. Perpetrator, not.

The. Yeah, you're interviewing. Oh, the.

Team. Not your team. Secret Service.

Team. No, because at that point, when I became an interrogator, I went to specialized training. They were scared of Me, because then I started doing the polygraphs for new recruits. And so they would tell me all their personal bad stuff that they.

Did. I had it.

All. I had all the goods. And then six months later, they see me in the hallway, and I'm like, hey, how you doing? And they're just like, oh, my God, she knows all my dirty stuff. So, no, after that, people were kind of like, hey, good to you. Almost like, repel.

People. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, you never speak about that stuff. When people expose themselves like that to you. You don't do.

That. Right. So you got nervous a couple times. In the.

Beginning. In the beginning, I didn't want to be an interviewer or an interrogator because I thought nobody would respect me. I was like, these guys are gonna see me, and they're gonna be like, the perpetrators? Yes, the perpetrators. Because you're dealing with sometimes really hardened people. And they see you coming in, they're like, this.

Girl?

Yeah. And I was like, I really had in my head the image of something else. And what you see on television, I didn't know. And afterward, I realized that the idea that I didn't look intimidating and that they were not expecting me. They're like, oh, this is a piece of cake. And they sit back like, what do you want to talk about? Let's talk about anything you want. And then, sure enough, admission after admission, after admission to the point, like, hey, do you mind just writing all that down for me? Here? Right here. Thank you. You have a.

Confession? You probably did it. I mean, you're probably easier. You're less intimidating to look at, maybe in terms of, like, this big man that you see on tv, like, in your.

Face. That stuff doesn't work, by the way. None of that works. It looks great for TV in real life, male or female, when you impose yourself on someone like that to that extent, they shut down. They get nervous, they're intimidated. They may tell you anything just to get you to leave them alone. Those are not good tactics. I'm not saying that they're not used by a lot of interviewers and law enforcement. I think they are, because there was moments where I'd do an interview with someone from another department. I'd sit there, and I'm like.

This is not the way to do.

It. It was rough sometimes, but you can't. You can't tell somebody, hey, don't do this. I'm in your house. But there were moments where sometimes it was harder. So I usually would do them with either an experienced interrogator from my own agency because we knew how to work together. It's only like 30 of us. So you would, you know, I would say, I want this person for this. If it was like a child pedophile case. We had one guy who I knew was great. I'm like, I want that guy. If it was terrorism, I'd say, I want this guy because he's really good. And I say guy because they're mostly. Mostly guys. Not all, but even the female interrogators. We had some good.

Ones.

Yeah. And so what was the time where you felt like, oh, I'm in. I'm in trouble. I said the wrong thing. I messed up. Like, it's about to go down the wrong way. Was there ever a time like that, or were you always pretty much in.

Control? I never felt like that. Because it's a conversation. I let it flow. It wasn't very rigid. If I have just an agenda and I have to go from here to here to here to here, that's where adaptability comes in. I didn't go in saying, here's my plan, here's my agenda. And I have to follow this because I have to allow the person to go where they want to go. So I may ask them, what did you do last night? Tell me about your night. And now they're telling me about, you know, how every night they go to karate and, oh, let me tell you. I started doing karate. They're telling me this whole other story, and I'm thinking, I don't want to know about how you started karate. I want to know about last night. But I would allow them that ability to do that. Or sometimes you have somebody who's worried about it, who's maybe angry that they're there. And I would have to allow them to talk about what they wanted to get off their chest, why they were angry, why they were there, what they were scared of, so that they could get it off their chest and then talk to.

Me. Interesting. Were the people that were angry mostly innocent or.

No.

Mix? Mixed.

Yeah. It was a mix. It would go where sometimes. Usually innocent people would be like, I'm done. I'm leaving. But then sometimes you'd have innocent people be like, no, if I keep talking and I tell the truth, they'll. They'll see it. So I can't say it was one or the other. But guilty people tend to like to stay in the.

Room.

Why? Because I gotta convince you. I gotta get you off my back. Because I'm not. Because you're not. Gonna go away so you can get up and leave the room. But the investigation's still open. Yeah, yeah, I'm still looking at you. So their goal is to get you interesting, to convince you, don't look at me anymore. Go look at this other guy. Let me. Let me throw some other people your way. And so that's the goal. So they would stay in the room. It's like the car salesman. Always think of the car salesman. Working hard, working hard, working hard. I don't want you to look at me anymore. I want you to look at someone else because you're going to keep on coming back. If I could get you to look at this other person now, I'm good. So that's why they usually stay. They usually would not leave. Guilty people would.

Stay. And how would you influence people to trust you and believe you and like.

You? I would be genuine. I would tell them the truth. Look, this isn't my case. And often. Usually it wasn't. It's not my case. I was like, if you didn't do anything, you didn't do anything. If you did. If you did do something, I get it. We'll work through it. And I was like, I'm here to help in any way I can and to help facilitate. And so, you know, if you did do something and you're forthcoming and you tell me, I will talk to the prosecutors, I will talk to the investigators, and I will tell them that you were cooperative. And I would do that. I would keep my word. It doesn't hurt me. Like, it wasn't. It's not personal. None of my cases were personal because sometimes people would ask me, when you. When you were done interviewing someone, did you follow that case afterward? No, I was done moving on. You don't. I never invested myself personally because it's. I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to be. And I really like this, because they taught us this. This in the service. You are an objective seeker of the truth. And I walked into every interview room saying, I am an objective seeker of the truth. So I don't care that everybody here is telling me he did it. You know, I'm going to give this person a chance, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna look at the evidence, of course. And if I have evidence, like, my guy, the hat, who's like, oh, no, that's not me. I'm saying it looks like me. What do you do with that? Where did you go? That was my heavy. I dropped it early, too. You know, you're not Supposed to drop evidence so early. You're supposed to hold it. But that was my heavy. After that, I had nowhere to go. No. Yes, it's you. No, it's not. But yes, it's you. No, it's not. There's nowhere to go. I lost that one. That one I.

Lost. You seem like an extremely confident person. From a scale from 1 to 10, 10, being very confident in general of your life, what are.

You? It fluctuates. In certain moments, I feel very confident and centered. In other moments, I'm like. It fluctuates. I think it depends on what it is, what you're going through, what you're dealing with. If it's family, like, those scales, like, when it's family, like, all these composure things all go out the.

Window.

Right. We're like a whole other thing. I think it depends on the situation, but there are moments where, sure, I may lack confidence, but sometimes, like, I would go in and think, maybe because I was in such a life or death type of job, where I would be like, no one's holding a gun to my head. I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna go home after this. I don't fucking.

Care.

Yeah. And that's helped me more than anything. And my ability to curse, usually internally cursing, has actually given. Gives me a lot of strength, really. There's actually science behind it that when you curse, whether outwardly or inwardly, it actually makes you. It empowers you. You know, so I'd rather be. I'd rather be like, you know, I've always. And I've always had that. Not that it's a good thing, but I always use. But try to use my inside voice. Instead of being like, what was me? This person's picking on me. These people are doing this to me. Instead of, like, inside me and be like.

Them. Right. You feel more.

Confidence, shifts.

It.

Yeah. Instead of me feeling like I'm a victim and I'm being preyed upon, it's just like, who do you.

Know? Screw.

That.

Yeah. I think having that part of yourself and the ability to do that, not. Not to intentionally actually hurt someone, but having that part of you inside, you know, my colonel, right, when he did that, that's exactly what echoed inside my head. You know, I made sure I'm like, inside voice, inside inside voice. But I was like, it doesn't matter. Instead of me being like, if I let that impact me, then the rest of my assignment, every time I see him, I'd feel smaller. I'd be affected. And it was Just like this guy, who's this guy? And that allowed me to do my job. So I think for me that's helped me quite a.

Bit. If someone listening or watching feels like they lack confidence in most areas of their life, what would you say is the way to overcome self doubt and build confidence? Some things they could.

Do. Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with. Take risks, make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive. Indecisive. Indecisiveness is a big thing. And what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should do? And you're asking a person who has no ability to. You're asking someone with no expertise about something. It'd be like, love mom, but it'd be like me asking my mom, hey, mom, do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say? What TV show? Oh, you're gonna be on tv. You know, like, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision. She doesn't have the experience. I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in. But indecisiveness is.

Key. And how does someone build.

Decisiveness? You gotta stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it, fall on your face. The more you fail, the more confident you become. You can't fear failure. I have failed, Louis. I don't even know. I feel it. I feel so much. And every, you know, and I look at it like, all right, and once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing like that. That builds resilience, indecisiveness. Knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop, choose. Don't worry about it, whether you're right or wrong, just do.

It. So we gotta take risks, make decisions, fail often. Choose anything else. On overcoming self doubt that you've.

Seen the way you talk to yourself in your head. Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself. So, for example, I work out. And so there are moments or it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside. I don't want to go to Jiu Jitsu, I'm tired. I want to sit I want to eat popcorn. I don't want to do anything. I want to watch Netflix. I will never say to myself, don't be lazy. Get up. I'm not lazy. There's nothing about me that is lazy. Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say, if you move, get up. Go. And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers, and I.

Don'T want to do this. I hate.

This. Whatever. But I will be putting them on and doing it and then go. But I will never call myself names. And that's something I had to learn over.

Time. Oh.

Man. This is. My entire childhood was calling myself names. You're never going to amount to anything. You're stupid. You suck. Why did you do that? Idiot? You know, all these things, even.

Something as simple as like, oh, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself. I'm like, don't say that about yourself. You're not an idiot. I wouldn't want another human. I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but we don't know we should get mad.

At ourselves for calling us that.

Stuff.

Yeah. What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an.

Interrogator? As an interrogator, I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me and not say a.

Word. What does that mean, shred.

You? Like, you can have somebody be like, I hate you. You're this, you're that. You know, you don't react in the interview room. Especially with the job. I would sit and take it because it wasn't my ego personal.

Too. It's.

Not. It was less.

Personal.

Yeah. But I've been able to. Not always successfully, but even in my personal life, maybe without. With my husband so much, he's probably like, yeah, that's bullshit. But he's an interrogator, too, so it's all right. But typically with friendships, relationships, I'm better at. Not like, I can, you know, I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not.

Respond.

Really? I'm not saying it hurt. It doesn't hurt. And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well, or you have a friend or even a distant family member, and, like, they send you a horrible email that, you know, soul crushing. And you just want to point out, like, just the, you know, the lies or the inadequacies in what they wrote. And I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond. I have my moments, too. But I really think to myself, is this person worth responding to? Sometimes it's hard because it's like, I hear what this person's saying, I see what they're doing, and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you or hurtful to you. Yeah, that's tough because we all go through that. Yeah, Every. Each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate. And you're like, how's this happening? Why is this happening? And you want to give it back. Especially when you've trusted them unconditionally. You feel.

Betrayed. You believed everything they.

Say. You believe you. You. You access the primitive part of your brain, and you gave them all that trust. You didn't give them conditional trust. You gave it all.

Up. What are the three most powerful cues? Body language cues of.

Leaders. Okay, so this is the competence area of the spectrum. Right? So when we talk about charisma, we talk about warmth, competence, charisma, and danger. Okay, so three body languages of leaders. The example that I give, that I really like to teach from is the Nixon Kennedy presidential.

Debate.

Okay. Have you ever heard of this historical debate? We were not around this debate, so I'd be shocked if you seen.

It. So we want to be in the.

High. There you.

Go. The high.

Charisma. There you go.

Yes. We want to be doing those cues all the.

Time. That's right. We want to be in the star. So right now you're talking about competence. You just asked me about leaders. So leaders typically are high competence, and they can go into warmth when they want.

To. High competence and.

Charisma.

Right. Are they high competence and high.

Warmth? Yes, exactly Right. So highly competent cues. If you know that you're warm and you need to dial up competence to hit the sweet spot, these are some cues that will help you. And. But my favorite is from the Nixon President, Nixon Kennedy presidential debate. So this. Have you heard about this debate before? It's kind of remind.

Me.

Okay. You're like, actually, yes, I watched it on the History Channel last.

Night. I mean, maybe you mentioned this before, but isn't one of them was angry or something? I can't remember what happened.

But. So this is. This is why I like this story, is because it created a puzzle, and I like puzzles. So here's what happened during this part in U.S. history. Nixon and Kennedy were running for president, and about half the population watched the. The presidential debate on television. And about half the population listened to the debate on the radio. Everyone who watched the debate was sure that Kennedy won, and everyone who listened to the debate was sure that Nixon won. And it was the first time where there was a discrepancy between the.

Winners, the perceived winners, because one sounded.

Competent, the other one looked warm, one sounded like a leader, and one looked like a.

Leader. Ooh, you match them together. That's the sweet.

Spot. That's the.

Star. Okay, that's the.

Star.

Exactly. So one sounded like a.

Leader. So Nixon sounded like a leader. He had really good vocal power, but he looked like a loser. And I hate to use that word, but he himself said in his memoirs he believes he lost that entire presidential election based on the first few seconds of that debate. First few seconds. He himself said.

That. What he. What happened? So he was kind of like the Shark Tank guy, trying to buy back confidence and.

Warmth. At the same time, he gave away his competence in the first few seconds of debate. So anyone who saw it went, oh, no, no, no, no. This guy is not a winner. And this was before they even spoke. So in the first 30 seconds of the debate, neither of them speak. You see them on camera, and if you were watching, you saw, wow, Nixon looks so weak. And here's why. What most people don't know is that Nixon had just injured his knee on the campaign trail. He had been in the hospital for the week. So he came in with a bandaged knee and a fever. Kennedy had been.

Tanning. Yeah, he was like, nice suit and.

Everything. He was ready to go. And also, a kind of funny thing is the debate was in black and white, and Nixon's suit was too brown. It blended into the background. So I talk about color psychology at the very end of the book, colors. And so that was an issue. One that he didn't pop as much on the black and white. Okay. So he shows up, and he's sitting. What's called the runner's stance. The runner's stance is when someone. So, you know, runners, before they win a race, they, like, go into the crunch position, one leg back. We know this as a readiness position universally across cultures. If someone's about to run away from us, they will get into this position. Right? Like, they're literally about to run away. It's why sprinters start a race like that. Well, Nixon spent the first 30 seconds of the debate in that position.

Because of his knee, because of his knees in pain. He was trying to, like.

Just. He was nursing.

It.

Yeah. But it made it look like he was about to run out on us. That's from just a quick, nonverbal perspective. The first impression was, where's he going? Even though people didn't consciously realize it, he looked not planted. And we don't like leaders who aren't going to stay with us. Whereas Kennedy, on the other hand, he had a really nice, relaxed cross, and he used what's called humility hands. Research calls it humility hands. Humility hands are when your hands are on your leg and they're resting. Humility, humble. So he looked relaxed, calm, here to stay, you know, not.

10. I'm not in a.

Rush. I'm.

Here. I'm your leader. Right. So he looked, quote, unquote, presidential. So first, the runner stance. Second is. This is in the first 10 seconds. They were sitting next to each.

Other. They weren't on a.

Podium. No. So here's your first snapshot of the debate. And you see Kennedy, very humility, hands relaxed, sitting tall. And then you see Nixon, who's, like, gripping his chair arm, ready to leave. And we see these cute. And people already made their decision, but people who were listening didn't see any of.

That. Right. They heard the.

Voice. And so Nixon lost the debate to Kennedy. He lost the election to Kennedy. And he said in his memoirs, that's why is because of the cues I sent. And so for leaders, here's what we want to think about. One is relaxed here to stay. So the more you can settle into your place, the distance. This is such a weird measurement. I want to see the biggest distance between your earlobe and your shoulder. The.

Reason? Not like.

This. Yes. Yes. Because why? When we are confident, when we are winners, we take up as much space as possible. Right? We broaden our shoulders. We tilt our head towards the sky. Winners feel pride. So we look at the distance between someone's ear and shoulder. We're like, oh, he looks. She looks confident. When someone hops on a video call, this is the mistake I see. Hi, everyone. Shoulders pinched up towards ears. And we wonder why people aren't taking us seriously. We wonder why people are interrupting us. Is because this distance, if I'm like this, hey, everyone, happy.

Monday. Well, your tonality as well, but yeah.

Right. Like, if I start a video call like this. So today we're gonna talk about some updates, and I'm gonna go over some different slides with you, and we're gonna wait a few minutes while people log.

On.

Right. So horrible. If I'm on your team, are they. Is everyone just like, yes. No one gives you. Are you just calling each other out on your social.

Pressure? Everyone's a winner on my team. They're amazing, right? Like, we, like. We, like, play music, like. Yeah, right. Of course you can lean in sometimes you can, but in that first impression especially, right? It's like, hey, good morning, everyone. Good to see you. So I want you to think about profile pictures, videos. I love chairs with armrests. Why? It helps our shoulders stay grounded. So that's the biggest one, is taking up space. The second thing that happens that also gives you more vocal power. So if I were to do my. This entire interview with my shoulders up, it would look bizarre, right? I would look.

Scared. You'd be more.

Closed. Yeah, it would be. And so if I tense my vocal cords right now, I'll begin to go into vocal Fry. So, Vocal Fry, have you heard this before? It's when your voice sounds like sizzling bacon. I just don't know. I'm not sure. But, like, I was just thinking about it, and if it's. Oh, my goodness, it's horrible. And the reason why we'll accidentally go into fry is because we're literally clenching our vocal cords, and they cannot get enough breath. Vocal fry, not to be gross, but vocal Fry happens when our vocal cords rattle together. And that's what we're hearing is the rattling. That's why we don't like it. And so when you have space, you prevent vocal Fry. If you hear yourself in vocal Fry, here's the quickest fix you have. Speak louder, Right? So the best way to get rid of vocal Fry is to just up your volume. It will push more air through your vocal cords, and it makes them.

Hum.

Yeah. If other people on your team are using vocal Fry, just ask them.

To speak up and speak a little.

Louder.

Yeah. That will usually get them out of vocal.

Fry.

Okay. Little secret. Don't. Don't blame it on me. But that's a really easy way to. If you're interviewing someone and they're in Vocal Fry, and you know what's going to drive your listeners crazy? Just be like, you know, the audio. They just can't hear you. Could you speak a little bit louder? It will.

Work. Now, what's the difference between the humble hands on a knees or on a table? I guess right here. Does this work on a table as.

Well? Yes.

Yes. Versus hand over top of the other hand, which is relaxed but also is closed.

Body?

Yes. Versus two hands Two hands, side by side. Relaxed. Not like intense, but relaxed. Side by side. What's the difference between these.

Two? Perfect question. So your book cover. Your book cover is hand over hand, and they're relaxed. And it's a closed posture, but it works, right? And so it's okay to me, as long as your hands are relaxed, I don't care if they're closed or open. Now, I do care about this. So when we protect our trunk, arms crossed. Yes, I do care about this. And why is. Because when we are crossing like this, I know it's comfortable for some people, what research finds is two things. One is we look more closed off, so we never want to look close off. But second, they found that when people are trying to be creative or strategic, they literally cannot generate as much ideas when they are like.

This. What's the.

Alternative? Humility, hands open, posture, holding a drink, typing at a computer, taking.

Notes. Anything.

Else. Anything else but that. Anything else. So I love props. So I. The way that I don't cross my arms, because I actually like to cross my.

Arms. Kind of relaxing, you know, it's kind of.

Like. I know, but actually, if you're thinking or processing, cross away. Right? If you need to, like, take a minute, take a step back. It's a great way to break. So I hold a clicker for presentations and a pen, you know, like for slides. Because every time I think about crossing my arms, I remember, oh, I have the clicker. When we think about getting rid of. I call them, like, bad nonverbal habits. Right? So tics. So ums, crossing arms. Those are all bad nonverbal.

Habits.

Slouching.

Slouching.

Yeah. It's really hard to just say, don't do that. So what I'd rather you do is replace it. Displacement tactics. Okay? So, you know, you cross your arms. Can you hold a coffee mug? Can you hold a pen? Can you hold the clicker? Can you always have a Moleskine notebook? I have a student of mine who always has a Moleskine. He doesn't need.

It. He just holds.

It. He has it. He opens it up and he'll write the date and the meeting name and what he had for breakfast, but that's it. He literally used it. Because if he doesn't, he puts his hands in his pocket or crosses his arms so he has it in front of him because it helps him feel very.

Grounded. It's a replacement.

Tool. It's a replacement tool. So I would think about what are some tools you can use that will help you do.

That. What about, like. What about the finger.

Crossing? So, like, look at the differences. Like this. When I'm white knuckling, you can see that I am tense. I'm trying to keep it together.

Vanessa.

Right. Like this is.

This. So this is called a.

Steeple. The.

Fingertip. Oh, I love a steeple. Yeah. So a steeple is when the tips of your fingers touch. And like a church steeple, it's like.

Mr. Wonderful just does this the whole.

Time.

Exactly. You will notice that when. Yes. When Mr. Wonderful is trying, Contemplating a deal, he'll go like this. Why doesn't it make you feel like you're just in control? And so this is a really good power gesture. It's one of our competence cues. That's why I have it on the COVID of the book, is to show high competence, because it's about getting in control. The steeple. We love it because it shows our palms, which shows we're not concealing.

Anything. Do you want the steeple pointed at.

Someone? Either one. Any of those. Any and all.

Whatever. Up here. Like the.

Diamond. I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be like, hello.

Everyone. Good.

Morning. So here. Or point it at them. It's.

Fine. Totally fine. You'll notice that, like, Mr. Wonderful does it perfectly. He'll, like, go like this. He'll tap it. The only thing I would be careful of is drumming fingers. That looks like Mr. Burns. Evil. Right? I don't love that one. Okay, so, like, don't look like you're.

Scheming.

Right. Like, that can look a little bit crazy. But if you're like, oh, yes, I'm thinking about it now, I want to give a caveat. Please only use cues that you've tried on a few times and feel natural. There are some cues in the book where there's 96 cues in the book that I still don't like. I've tried them every which way, and I do not like.

Them. What's the most powerful cue that you don't like but you know is extremely effective in charisma or connection or trust or.

Leadership? Volume. So research shows that people who speak in louder volumes literally are taken more seriously, but that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And so even on stage, when I'm, like, really excited, I still don't want to be like, let me tell you about something very. Oh, God, that's horrible. I don't like it. But volume. Dynamism is a cue I teach in the book that I have trouble.

With. But the research shows that people are more Trustworthy or more.

Competent. Competent. It is a competent cue because.

If you're soft, it's like you don't believe in your.

Words. It's actually volume dynamism. So it's being able to use your volume to match your intention. So, for.

Example. So tonality and fluctuation at the right.

Moment. Yes, yes, yes. So, like, for example, I feel a little ridiculous when I do this. This is why. This is a cue that I struggle with, which is like, let me tell you about something super.

Important.

Yeah. I just feel ridiculous. But some people do it so.

Well. It.

Works. Oh, it works so.

Well. People are so.

Charismatic.

Yes. When you can get the tonality, the influctuation is that it is of the tonality. They taught this to us in Toastmasters as one of the 10 initial lessons of being a competent communicator. One of the exercises is to give a five minute speech using tonality. It's very. You have to, like, find the cues of when you, like, pause and slow and then you bring it over. It's like, how do you make it.

Authentic? Yeah, so some people do it naturally. They're so good at it. That is not me. That's why I don't have a podcast. That's why I have a YouTube.

Channel.

Right. Like, on YouTube, I can use my gestures and my facial expressions. It's why I don't have a podcast. I feel I am not dynamic enough in my vocal power. And so that's one cue that I'm. I work on, but I have a hard time being in control of my.

Volume. Okay, so we have that. These hand gestures. This is fine. On the table.

Also. Yeah, all good. Relax and.

Go. What about hands open on the.

Table? Okay, so let's talk about palm up versus palm.

Down.

Yeah. Okay. So when I was reaching for the book I was looking for, my favorite are Q's. Hiding in Plain Sight. Those are my favorite. Oh, I just used it. Those are my.

Favorite. Yeah, you did. That was very organic, very.

Natural. I'm really happy right.

Now. It's like you're speaking to a girlfriend, just naturally flowing through, let me tell.

You.

Yeah. Okay, so that was great. It was very exciting. I feel very excited. Okay, so I love Q's. Hiding in Plain Sight. And so I had a lot of political examples, a lot of celebrity examples, and Britney and Lance Armstrong, but I wanted historical examples. And so I was looking at famous paintings and I noticed the Last Supper painted by Leonardo da Vinci has hidden cues in it. You'll notice that the way that it's positioned. Christ is positioned in the middle. So da Vinci positioned in the middle. Okay. Most people do not realize that in that picture, Christ is doing this. He has one palm up and one palm down. It's hard to see it in.

That. Yeah. His left palm is up and the right palm is down on the.

Table.

Right. Now this is very interesting because, like, most people don't look at this right away, but why? Why is he doing.

That? Why would he put his hand like.

That? Why would he put his hand like that? And what do those mean? So let's look at the research. Palms open are universal gestures of openness. When we want something, what do we do? We hold open our.

Hand. Give it to.

Me. Yeah. When we're offering something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. When we are open to suggestion, we show our palm and we have it visible. A palm down gesture is a high competence cue. It shows dominance, it shows directiveness. You might think of, I won't mention them by name, some famous dictators of the past who did palm down gestures. Why that is a very dominant gesture when you are giving. People are giving directives. They often say, be quiet, sit down. Right. I don't want to hear from you right now. It's a very direct, dismissive too, in a.

Sense.

Right. Especially if you shake it at someone. So why would we have these two cues? They perfectly balance each other out. Christ is depicted as the highest, most charismatic person in the painting. And so what does he do? He literally balances warmth and competence. He's showing the universal gesture of openness and giving, while at the same time a universal gesture of direct.

Authority. When Was this.

Painting? 1498. Yeah. So Da Vinci, I think, hid cues that signaled the viewer. Wow, he's charismatic. The takeaway from this, by the way, is if you're giving a directive and you don't want it to be questioned, you're better off giving palms down. You're better off saying, listen, team, we've got to get this done. We've got to be efficient. We got to be streamlined. I need you to do it for.

Me. Just.

Go. Yeah, just go. Just do it. If you want feedback, like, when I take Q and A, I'm like, what can I do? What questions can I.

Answer?

Right. I'm giving open. That's a very, very subtle but very powerful cue. Okay. So that's how Christ is depicted. Balancing. The other thing that he does is if you measure the amount of space that Christ takes up in the painting, you'll notice he takes up the most space. He is literally has the most distance between his shoulder and his earlobe. Yes, because he's tilting. So tilting is a warmth gesture. And so he is the only pictured person who is head tilt with also expansive posture. So there's all these hidden cues that I think paint this picture behind what's happening. Now, if you look at Judas now, if you didn't know anything about this history, Judas would be the character painted with the most intrigue. If you notice, he's also holding a clenched fist. Right. He's the only character in the picture who has a clenched fist and is distancing. He's literally turning his body away from us. And we know, we already talked about that. Distancing is a danger zone cue. So here is the person who is later about to betray Christ. And how does Da Vinci signal that he hides cues? He shows a clenched fist, which shows withholding and anger. And then he shows that he's about to lie, that he literally turns his body away. The reason I show this is because I think that we don't realize there's these cues being sent to us all the time. You know, I do a lot of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of my politicians, and we don't realize even when we look at political campaigns in one picture, there's thousands of cues being sent to us and we should know what's being said to.

Us. The thumb.

Pinch. Oh, the thumb.

Pinch. Obama.

Right?

Okay. He did this all the time, didn't.

He? So here's what's funny is Obama used to be a pointer. We don't like being pointed at. So there's something about it. As humans, it's like, let me.

Tell you what to.

Do. It's kind of a better than. So I think he was coached because all of a sudden he never pointed again. And he only used the thumb pinch. The thumb pinch is a very clever gesture because in Western cultures, this means, good job, thumbs up, thumbs up, good job. Or like, me, like, literally social media, like, right. This is what we see. Like, like, like, like, give me a like. And so the thumb pinch is a very subtle thumbs up gesture. So every time he does it, it makes you think, oh, first of all, it's not. He never.

Clenches. It's.

Relaxed. Just.

Relax. It's kind of like an open.

Thumb because he's saying, a, okay, A, okay. Like, like, like. And he's also saying, this is a point I want you to remember. It literally looks like a bullet.

Point. Right.

Right. I'm gonna give you. A point that you should.

Remember.

Yes. And Obama. I'm gonna do an Obama impression. It's gonna embarrass us both.

Okay.

Okay. I'm not very good at impressions. Obama does this thing that I just. I find so interesting. So Obama uses a downward inflection. So we talked about the question. Inflection, right? So when we go up at the end of our sentences, Obama goes down. At the end of his sentences, he literally slings down his words. And downward inflection we hear is very authoritative. So I'm going to do an Obama impression. Okay? So this is him slinging down his words. He goes, sasha, Malia, it's very important that what we do today is going to be remembered forever. And if we don't do those things, we are going to be in deep trouble. That's a terrible Obama push up. You can hear what I'm saying.

Right? Of.

Course. He slings his words down, and that is very authoritative. So even that vocal cue makes us think, well, he knows what he's talking.

About. Right? It's more authoritative, more.

Confident. It's more authoritative versus if he were to say, sasha, Malia, I have something really important to tell you. It's really important. We do this for our future. Could you imagine if he gave speeches like that? And so even that vocal inflection worked for him because he also creates a lot of space in his mouth. He has a lot of space in the middle part of his mouth. So he talks very deeply in his mouth, and that helps keep his resonance really low because he has a space in the back of his mouth, and that creates a lot of.

Resonance. That's a.

Good. Thank.

You. That's a good.

Impression. You're not embarrassed for.

Me?

Good. No, it's.

Great. It's because he creates this low resonance point, and we like it. So that's. That downward inflection is really.

Important. So many great cues in here. The power of the pause, the pause for.

Power. So a mistake that I used to make is I would pause the end of my sentence before continuing on to my next sentence, and I would get interrupted. Right? So a mistake that people will make is they'll give a thought, pause, and then keep speaking. Now, pauses are quite powerful. Powerful people typically use pauses in their speech. But if you pause in between your sentences, people will interrupt you because they think you're done. You're actually better off using what I call a power pause. A power pause is when you pause right before you give something.

Away. So not the. Not the end of a Sentence. Right in the middle of a sentence before you're going to share something really important. So let me tell you something really.

Important. That's.

It. Exactly. So like, so here's the mistake that people make is they'll say, something really important happened in my childhood that I want to tell you about. Pause. It was when I was. Okay. People are like, should I talk to you? Should I ask you another question? What should I say? It actually creates conversational confusion, which is the last thing you want, versus I want to share a really important story from my childhood that creates a lot more intrigue because, like a story. Oh, from your childhood. And I have no desire to interrupt. So that's a very advanced tip. That's. That's towards the end of the book. It's a very advanced tip because if you have trouble with people interrupting you, I would practice switching your pauses and think about that. What's the drama? You can give.

Drama. Create the.

Drama. Volume, pauses. Yeah. And by the way, Obama did that very well. He would deliver a point, right? He would go into his residence and he would say, what this country needs is better.

Systems.

Right. I'm saying nothing. But you're like, what's better? What is it? What is the thing that we.

Need? It's not what you say, it's how you say.

It. That's.

It.

Although. Although how you say it is important.

Too. Well, you need the.

Competence. That's the last chapter. So the last chapter I have to end on is verbal because, yes, we spend a lot of the book talking about non verbal and vocal. But your words matter, as we talked about with achievement oriented words. But man, if you can deliver achievement oriented words with power. Pausing with a steeple. Look out, look out, world can you talk to.

Me? The difference between charisma and narcissism. And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and.

Charismatic.

Yeah. Versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma in their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling, and getting what they want in.

Life. So this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my. This is my single biggest fear. And it was an issue for me when I first started writing. It is. I'm gonna be honest. You can use this book for.

Manipulation. Yeah, of.

Course. And that scares.

Me. And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then.

Start using it, it scares.

Me. So how can you tell the difference? The subtle cues. These are very subtle.

Now. Very subtle. Yeah. So we're talking about big to subtle. Right. There's, like, a range of them. So first is, it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you. You can if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control, and if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about, there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, non verbal, verbal, and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable. There's highly competent cues. Verbal, nonverbal, and vocal. And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knock it out of the park. Like, they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak. Guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot.

Them. Okay, what are those.

Cues? Okay, so there's a bunch, and I'll. Let's talk about as many as we.

Can. So this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot, potentially someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that. Yeah, yeah, Extremely successful. They could be successful. They could seem credible.

Trustworthy.

Yes. But might be super narcissistic.

Underneath. Yes. So there's a couple danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit. Right. So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert. Lance Armstrong was doping. So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book. And I was like, you haven't.

Heard of that news.

Yet. I also talk about Britney Spears in the book because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong and one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping, and he does what's called a lip purse. So lip purse is okay when we push our line, our lips into A flat line. We mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture. So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go. And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie a lot of the time. So we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called Lie to me. So I have you lie to me. Play this Lie to me game. To diagnose your own tells, it's very important to know your own tells, because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And one of the. You should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your pocket. Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies, that was one of the biggest indicators. So in lie to me game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference. If we. If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake.

One? Man, that'd be.

Interesting. Yes. And it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again right before someone's about to lie until they're fake. Embarrassment, embarrassing story. They go, okay. And they lip purse right before they're gonna do it. And that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's gonna get us into trouble. So we're like, stop it, stop it, stop it. And we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, how much do you weigh? She'll go, mmm. Like, literally close those lips. Because no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture. And so that's the first thing is you wanna look for some of the bigger cues. Withholding gestures. Lip purse is one. A sudden distancing behavior. So we also notice that liars in our lab, they wanted to, like, get away from. From the lie, like, as if it smelled. So, like, when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be, like, leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative, right? It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like. And they do a shame touch, the universal shame touch. Is when people touch their fingers to the side of their.

Forehead. This happened in a.

Mouth. Oh, gosh, I'm so.

Embarrassed. So they usually tell the truth and they do like.

This. Yes. Because they're actually embarrassed. Right. So these are all good, like, congruent. Right. We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative, nonverbal people shaking their head. I can't believe that happened. Right. Like they. Oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes, we're seeing fear, we're seeing sadness. Congruent. Right. Like, that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories we often see people will lip purse and they try to get away from it. So they'll say a statement and then, you know, and then. And they're literally like, as far away. I hope I'm not messing up my audio there. As far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back. They'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair. And that's because physically, we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like. So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control. Right. So blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is. Liars have higher blink.

Rates. They blink.

More. Yeah. Actually, in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I. I actually break this down on my YouTube channel, so you don't have to read the book if you want to see it. Where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started. So very, very full of cues because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked very difficult question, and she. All of a sudden her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate. So she starts to. To really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, oh, I know a very narcissistic, manipulative person who has a very high blink.

Rate.

Interesting. Because they're literally, like, trying to block out the lie or the manipulation. And so they'll sound really good, but they're, like, really, like, processing a lot. And you. And you're like, why are they blinking so much? And it's because they're trying to process oh, my goodness. So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them. And I do think. I really think manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep.

That.

Yes. And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them, but for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at, you know, Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes. So, spoiler alert, Theranos did not go well. I always have to say that. So one of her interesting cues is. I don't know if you've ever seen her talk. She has a really. She uses a really deep voice, like, fakely deep, like down here. And people used to say, like, is that real? It's because she read in some cue book. It wasn't mine because my book wasn't out then. Thank goodness. She read in some books that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice, and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register when I'm talking to my.

Toddler.

Right. When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here, you know.

Hey, baby, how are.

You? But if I were to do my entire interview, like, this thing would drive you.

Crazy.

Right?

Right. You wouldn't feel.

Competent.

No. And it wouldn't. People would go, I can't. I'm not taking her taker seriously. So she read that study, obviously.

And went an octave.

Lower. There you go. And went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone. It was, like, one step lower than her voice tone. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this, and you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural. And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural.

Register.

Wow. So there are cues that they.

Will eventually, don't drink.

Alcohol. And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol or you'll get caught. So, like, you can't keep it up for that long. It is that she was faking that cue, we.

Think. I think you're also just. Your body is out of integrity. Like, the more you're. You're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I felt this from the past because I've been out of integrity in my life at different times, from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right. For little white lies to bigger stuff, hiding from my parents or.

Whatever. They feel.

Bad. So you're like. Like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you gotta like, keep the lie up and you're like, eventually you're gonna explode or you're gonna have a heart attack or.

Something. Yeah, it's gonna.

Leak. It's gonna.

Leak. Like leaky cues. You leak those cues and like, those are the cues that we're looking for. Like, I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad, like even, like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone.

Changed.

Right. Just then. Because when you think about. Oh, I'm like, think about seeing a toxic person. And I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives. And this is why toxic people are so challenging. Because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now we can do.

It. What do you mean? We gotta be nice to them or.

Something. Yeah. So, like, if you have a toxic person, and this is the thorn, and I think our work is, I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most competent self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people. You have a colleague or co worker or family member that you don't like, Right. And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi, how are you? Right. And so what do we do? We fake smile, right? So. Oh, it's so good to see.

You.

Right? I don't look like it, right? Or we say, oh, yeah, somehow. Oh, that sounds good.

Congratulations. Right now your LA roots are.

Coming back to you, right? That's why talk. Toxic people challenge us, is because they come into our lives, we know we're supposed to be warm, and so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and then it makes us feel bad and then we're trying to overcompensate for it. And so you know what the antidote Here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's. It's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like, the side effect of the book is, like, don't keep them around. Don't keep those people around because it will leak. And so set.

Boundaries. So what do you mean it will leak? Like, your integrity will leak because you're constantly trying to be nice, but they're actually out of integrity because you don't want to.

Be.

Right. Is that.

Right? Right. That's exactly.

Right. So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this.

Person. That's.

Right. And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with.

Yourself. Yep, exactly. So yourself with yourself. That was a question you asked. Yes, it was. Yes. Yes. It was perfect. Because you were asking a question I knew. Yes is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries. We have to have some of those people we deal with. If you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness. And that feels really.

Bad. What happens if. Let's just say there's a person you don't.

Like.

Yeah. Maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like and you don't like being nice to because you feel like, why am I spent? I just don't. Nothing wrong with them. There's not my.

Person. Yeah.

Totally. Let's say you're in a work.

Environment.

Yeah. And you're at a company, got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm.

Here.

Yeah. Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person? Friendly, fake. How are you interested? Even though you've, like, been around them for six months or a year, and you realize you really don't like them. Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months, say, you know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I've been fake, that I don't connect with you. I don't like you. I think you're out of integrity. I think you're inauthentic, and maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd rather be honest with you and fake nice to.

You.

Okay. That's A and B. Can I give a.

C?

Sure. Okay. So I don't believe in fake it till you make it so I. I try not to give, like, fake it. I don't. I don't roll that way. Like, I just think it's exhausting. I think it's gonna leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them. Right. You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So that is something you can be authentic about. Because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting. So I would skip all the fake warmth.

Stuff. Just go right into.

Competence. Yeah, right. Like, stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need to fake sitting with you for coffee. But you know what? We can get stuff.

Done. You know.

What? We align on goals, create boundaries around the. Hey, let's go have.

Coffee. I'm so busy. I'm so busy today. But you know what? Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick.

Off.

Yeah.

Yeah. So get back to, like, the mission on, the task on hand, the competence. And maybe you've just got to be like, okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day, I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake lady daddy with everyone.

And I'll just wait, I'm getting stuff.

Done, and then I'll move on to the.

Next. That's it. Exactly. Because at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. And also, that's. Even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be. Listen, like, you know, I'm. I'm not really into, like, you know, connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us, like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster. Right. Like, that's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's.

Competent?

Yes. What can you highlight about them that's competent? And.

That'S. What if you don't feel like they're warm or competent. You're like, this person on a team is just that they can't get anything done. They're not smart, and they have fake attitude around me all.

Day. I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it. Like, you got, like, go to your boss.

Right? And say, hey, I just. Look, put me on a different.

Team. You say, like, I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be inauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done and they are causing issues on the team. Like, I don't like to ignore that stuff. Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, set a boundary, or get help, give them money. Don't live with it. Yeah, don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fakely.

Warmth. Right. What's been the. I think I asked you this last time. What's been the charisma?

Strategy.

Yeah. You want to call it a.

Strategy? You weren't sure about that. You weren't.

Sure. I don't know what the word.

Is.

Right. But what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves.

This. There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft because I just learned it. And this is actually brought to me by one of my male readers. And I'm so curious. Okay, do you agree with this, Lewis? Okay, here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding affirmative. Nods upside.

Down.

Right. I'm not all.

Done.

Yeah. Yes. You're an otter. It's really high. Warmth. We love it. Yes. Nodding is great because vertical nods. And by the way, this is different in certain colors, cultures where they'll nod, they nod sideways. That's different. Okay, so just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's yes. In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times.

Longer. Ah, that's.

Cool. That's why you're a good interviewer, is because you'll not be like, keep going, keep going, keep.

Going. I'M just like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, yeah, very slow. I'll pause and be like, okay.

Cool. Okay. Well, actually, you're right. Slow nodding is. Tell me more. Fast nodding is. Finish.

Up. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Got it. I got it. Right, right, right. Okay, so that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a 1, 2, 3, triple nod. Like, I got it. If you want them to keep going. An introvert. Okay, so that's the difference. That's number one. So I shared about this. I taught it. And then a couple of my male readers said to me, you know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret non verbal cue between guys. I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said. If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him guy to guy, you're not.

Up.

Yeah. Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy, but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, You. Hey, good to see.

You. Oh.

Wow. That's so.

True. Is it.

True? That's so true. Yeah, exactly. Oh, good to see you get acknowledged. Good to see you. Hey, what's up.

Buddy?

Okay.

Yeah. It's so.

True. Okay, so this is. I snuck it into the book last.

Minute. Oh, that's fascinating. I wonder, is. Is that like.

Biology? Is.

That.

Yes. Here's why I think social.

Like. Okay, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like. And I started looking. I started watching men. I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends. And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body. And we're saying, I know you, I trust you. Look, I'm opening, I'm acknowledging you, and I feel trustworthy. When you don't know someone but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular. I don't know you, but I see.

You. I got.

You. I got you. I'm here for you. Kind of can't see my jugular.

But I'm here for you. I'm protect myself, but I see.

You. I'm here for you.

Bro. Exactly. I think that's where it comes from, is it's like a do I know you or do I not know you? So in that sense, this is a high warmth cue. Hey, buddy, what's up? It's high warmth. You're showing your jugular this is a high confidence cue. Hello. Good to see you. I look ridiculous. I don't do.

That. How is it that life is. Is the same as chemistry, or.

How is it that life is the same as fundamental.

Physics? You have to look one layer deeper, and when you look that one layer deeper, the kinds of structures you see as being important are what we would talk about in.