Parent Psychologist REVEALS Top 3 Parenting MISTAKES (DO THIS to RAISE Healthy KIDS!) Dr Becky

I think when we have kids, we have this unconscious wish that they're going to heal us. Ooh. And in reality, our kids trigger us. She's a clinical psychologist. She's a mom of three, and she's been called the Millennial Parenting whisperer. Please welcome Dr. Becky Kennedy. I'm going to take this very, like, first principles approach to parenting. Like, right, you strip back every assumption, anything that could be assumption. You're like, no, no. And what are you left with? And I was left with one thing. 1. Kids are good inside. And there is a difference between good inside identity and bad behavior. A parent's wor become a child's self talk. If there's one line that would be probably the most healing in people's childhoods.

It'S that you've been called the Millennial Parenting Whisperer. Is that right?

I think Time magazine wrote that one.

How do we learn to make sure we raise good human beings without messing them up when we haven't been taught how to be good parents?

So.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Dr. Becky in the house. Good to see you. Welcome.

Thanks for having me.

Very excited. I don't have kids, but I feel like I had a struggling childhood. And I love my parents, but I also know that they could have done some things differently. And I think there's probably a lot of us in the world who are thinking, I love and appreciate a lot about my parents, but they might have also done some messed up things. And if we can start to do our own healing journey and start to reflect that, okay, maybe they just didn't have the tools. They didn't know any better. Hopefully they had the best intentions and we can try to have some compassion for our parents as adults. Then there's some more integration and healing that I think allows us for us as we grow up. Right. However, how do we learn to make sure we raise good human beings without messing them up when we haven't been taught how to be good parents? And to add to that question, is it possible to raise a child that is not traumatized in some way, no matter how good we try to raise them?

I'm going to try to answer all that. You'll let me know which parts of the question I lose as we go. So what you started with just resonates with me so strongly, and I think it really is the reason I, like, get out of bed every morning. Right. Parenting is the most important job in the world, and it is the hardest job. And it's probably the job we'll have for the longest number of years, because everyone knows it's more than 18 years, right? So. And someone said to me, I'll never forget, it's the only job you care about on your deathbed. Which I was like, okay, that's heavy. But I think that's. I mean, I wouldn't know yet, hopefully, but I think that's true. And it's also, like, the only job that falls under, like, very difficult, very impactful, very ongoing that we literally get no training for, right? And, like, if my friend was a surgeon and called me and said, I'm not doing surgery, right, And I'm messing everything up and kind of messed up this person forever, and I'm so bad. And then I started poking around, and it turned out she never went to med school or never went to residency. I'm pretty sure I would say to her, hey, like, this is not that you're a bad surgeon. Like, that's not what this is. You weren't adequately prepared, and it's probably time to invest in resources. And I just want to say, too, because I think it's important that if she said, don't worry, I got all my tips on Instagram, I'd say, okay. I mean, like, you might want to do a little more in depth than that. You know, I think you deserve a little better, you know, than that. And yet this is what parents are set up for. When I've asked parents the number one reason why they don't get the support they even think they need, the number one reason I get. The number one reason I hear is I should be able to do this on my own.

It's like a shame underneath.

Yeah. And there's. And there's a shame. And I think there's a really strong societal message. As a woman, I can say the maternal instinct is like, a real thing that people think we should have, which really is a way of saying parenting has kind of traditionally been a woman's job. I think they're shifting around that it's great, and it should just be something women have an instinct to do, which is a really great setup for any parent when they're struggling to say, I guess it's me. And I think when we're struggling, I mean, I think when we're struggling with anything, we have two paths. And this is where I think we'll be talking about parenting. But you don't have kids. I'm sure some of your listeners don't have kids. This is in some ways about kids. In some ways, zero percent about kids and parenting. Like, when we're struggling, we can either say, what is wrong with me? And it's my fault? Or when we're struggling, we could say, what resources and support do I need? And they're two completely different paths. One is activating and has hope and. And has a likelihood of change. And one is actually spiraling into an abyss and a freeze state. Right. Of shame, which makes it possible to change.

Yeah.

And I think parents have typically said to themselves, what's wrong with me? Wow, this should be easier. You kind of also see on Instagram, it looks like everyone else got their kid to smile for a holiday card. And you're like, that's not what happened to my kids. You know, and you feel like it's your fault, and then you don't talk about it, and then you fake good. And then the next person's like, well, that person seems to be having a hard time. And then. Then, honestly, we feel small. You know, we don't get those resources. We don't feel empowered and kind of happens generation after generation until. Until. This is not supposed to be depressing. This is so hopeful. You know, what we see at good inside and we hear all the time from our members is, I came here for my kid. Like, that is not why I'm here now. Like, I now ask for a raise. I now can stand up to my partner when they're mad at me. I now know that it's okay for me to go away for a weekend with my college friends, even when my partner and my kids are upset, like, at their feelings. Like, I can have empathy and I can still do the things I need to do for myself. And in that way, I feel like what we're talking about is a lot of stuff you talk about is actually just. I call it sturdy leadership. And what's interesting to me is I feel like we have a lot of models for sturdy leadership in the workplace. Like, there's a lot of thoughts now. Like, you can't really just yell at people and expect them to get better at work. And I even think that's, like, been modernized on the sports field. Like, the best coaches, like, kind of know you gotta connect before you correct. And what's kind of amazing and sad and yet we're there, I think hopefully now is, like, parenting young kids is kind of the last place to modernize where sturdy leadership kind of gets applied and what it really looks like and how it benefits everyone. But that's really what good Inside is.

You know, it's interesting because I don't think I've ever heard that connect board before. You correct. And I just had a flashback to all the coaches that used to scream at me when I would drop a football or miss a basketball shot or just mess something up or I wasn't paying attention or whatever. Whatever happened. And just screaming at me, belittling me, you know, making me feel less than in front of my peers, my teammates, and shaming me to try to get better. And I remember just feeling, like, resentful and angry all the time. Right. And afraid. Now, I would still work hard, but I didn't come from an emotionally good place, so I didn't want that to happen again out of fear of shame, as opposed to someone actually sitting down and connecting with me where I did have great coaches also who took the time to connect with me and ask me questions. And why are you so angry? Why are you reacting like this? What's going on? Why are you so frustrated? Why did you foul that person that way? You know what is going on?

I use sports analogies all the time. And connect. Before you correct. There's a lot of phrases I'll take credit for. That one's not mine. I actually can. I don't know who said it first, but it's beautiful. And it gives you an order of operations, right? Where I think about this all the time. Like, my kid is hitting their brother, or my kid lied to my face about something that was important. Like, I don't know whether they studied for a test, whatever the behavior is, right? And I find out, and I see them hitting, and I just kind of send them to their room. Or I, like, take away their iPad or something, which I always say is, like, the worst thing, because when you're a parent, it really is. Like, now I have to deal with taking away their iPad. I don't even want to do that. I like when they have iPad time. Nobody wins. Why did I do that? But I think about a basketball coach, and I think about a kid who is missing layups all the time. And I think about watching my kid's basketball coach, if that's my kid. And the coach is like, you go to your room and you come back here when you can make a layup. And I feel like all the parents would be like, why? Like, why would that even. What's the theory of why that would be effective? Forget, like, what is my. You think my kid is now going to their room and Googling how to make a better shot? Like, yes, you might have to pull the kid out of the game, but you probably want to say, hey, like, this is not your game right now. I believe in you and like, we're going to get in the gym tomorrow and get to the bottom of this and figure this out. And if that was my kid's coach, I just don't know if the parents would say that coach is really condoning bad behavior. They're really encouraging that coach is making it seem like it's okay to mislead. It doesn't make any sense. But we actually have a system of doing that to our kids over and over. And then we wonder why so many teens and adults feel so awful about themselves. Well, when you reflect back to a kid that they're a bad kid during the stage they're forming their identity that will stick with them for a while.

And it's hard for them to kind of unwire that, I guess, right. And believe that they're actually good and totally possible.

Like, to me, it's like, there's one thing I ever want someone to take from anything I say is it's never too late. It is never too late. Repair is amazing. It is never too late. The parent who's listening now is like, oh, no, I guess I messed up my kid forever. You did not. By the way. I sometimes say bad things to my kids too. We're human. But to me, it's the starting point of right, like, my kid is good inside. That's why everything we do is called that. And to me, that idea isn't just like a phrase that sounds nice to me. It's actually a core principle that is very different from a punishment or fear based approach, which is if I believe my kid is good inside. And I always find visuals helpful. So I look at one hand, I'm like, this is my kid. This is who they are. That's their identity and they are good inside. And then I look at my other hand very far away and say, like, this is their behavior. This is what they did. And I would agree with a lot of parents telling me like, oh, they lied to your face. I would agree, like, not great behavior. They hit their sister. Definitely not great behavior. But those things are different. And it's really important with your hands to keep them separate because you could then look at one hand and say, I have a good kid who hit their sister. And the only reason we want to punish and come down so harshly on our kids is because those hands collapse is because I see the bad behavior and I don't even realize it so fast in my brain, but immediately I assume I have a bad kid, that.

That is my kid.

That is my kid. It's collapsed. And to me, I mean, good inside is more things. But everything else flows from the foundation of, like, actually separating behavior from identity, which I think you get this, but not everyone does. So it's important to name that doesn't mean condoning the behavior. Like, trying to understand behavior we think means approving of behavior, but trying to understand why my kid is missing a layup. I don't think anyone thinks means that. I think it's cool that my kid can't make a layup. They're different. But that separation is the foundation for everything.

What would you say are the three biggest mistakes of modern parenting today?

Is it okay? I. For some reason, the reason mistakes that, when I think about feels very, like, shame inducing, so it feels like final. So, like, what are the three things that I want? Like myths or things I'd shift?

Yeah. What are the three things that you think parents could do differently today to have a better connection with their children?

I think that would be number one. Number one is that trying to understand your kid's bad behavior is the foundation for effectively changing their behavior.

So understanding it first.

You can only change what you understand.

What if you don't understand it?

That's a great thing to acknowledge.

I don't understand why you're doing this.

That's exactly what you're doing it.

Right.

And if a parent said to me, I've been like, really? I'd be like, louis, that is so beautiful. We know exactly where to start. And this goes back to not having the skills. Like, why would you understand a kid's behavior? It's very complicated. And so it would be like a surgeon saying, I don't understand how to do this surgery. And I'd be like, yeah, of course. Well, you don't go to medical school. Like, let's get you into medical school. Like, there are places where you can do that. Like, really? So we have to understand before we intervene.

Okay.

Right. I think that's like a principal might.

Have to learn research, ask questions, get, you know, feedback from other people, whatever. It might be. Right.

100%. There might be experts, might be the right community. There's courses we can take. There's so many resources. There's the book. We do a million workshops. Right. Like, the reason I do workshops is because I was like, I. I have this private practice where I see a very limited group of people, and I was like, Honestly, at the end of the day, I kind of have some version of the same, like, 10 to 15 sessions all day long. They're always about the same topics. Right. Slightly different story, but same core things. I was like, I would like to democratize access to that. So that's what my workshops are. They're just things that would come up in private practice, but to more people. So there's so many resources. That's number one.

Okay.

Number two is that our job is not to make our kid happy. That is so important and so countercultural.

Why is our job not to make our kids happy?

Because when we focus on making our kids happy, we actually start to make them fearful and less tolerant of all of the other emotions that will inevitably be part of their life into adulthood. And so when our kid says, make this up, like, I'm the only one in my class who can't read, it's like, the most painful moment as a parent. Oh, I feel my kid's pain. Right. And maybe, let's just say it's true. It really might be. We have the urge to say, everyone reads at their own pace. Or, but you're amazing at soccer, but you're so good at math. I want to make them happy. All that does for my kid. Because during childhood, kids are not just learning about a situation with a parent. They're taking interactions and they're making generalizations, not for one moment, but patterns about what emotions are safe, what emotions can I deal with? What can I tolerate? And what emotions, as soon as I feel them, do I need to, like, turn off right away? And so when a kid says, I'm the only one who can't read, the truth is, when our kid is an adult, they probably won't say that, but they'll probably say, I'm the only one who, whatever it is, didn't get a job yet. I'm the only one of my friends who didn't buy their own house. Right. Whatever it is, we're always gonna feel that way. And so when we make our kid happy, what we actually say to them is, I am just as scared of this emotion you're feeling as you are.

Wow.

And so then what they do.

I don't want to deal with this emotion.

I'm terrified. I want to run away from it. I want to do anything but this. And so what a kid's circuit is, I feel. Let's say it's this. I feel less than or could be. I feel jealous. I feel sad. I feel disappointed. And what gets layered next to that in the circuit is my parents fear, my parents avoidance. Those things get put together. The irony is when you make happiness a goal of childhood, you actually set a kid up for an adulthood of anxiety because they have a range of emotions that they've encoded as wrong and fearful. And to me, anxiety actually isn't a feeling. It's the experience of wanting to run away from a feeling. And if avoiding it, yeah, it is. And you can't really run away from a feeling inside your body. That's what anxiety is. You're like, wait, this is not going to win. And so to me, the idea of we want to help kids become resilient, resilience over happiness. And resilience comes from being able to tolerate and sit with the widest range of emotions, not constrict ourselves.

I interviewed a brain surgeon on here who's also a neuroscientist, a PhD in neuroscience, but also had done a thousand brain surgeries. And I said, what's the number one skill you wish every human being could learn to be better humans? And he said, emotional regulation. Like, from doing a thousand brain surgeries and studying neuroscience, the mind. He was like, emotional regulation will support us in being healthier, happier human beings. And it goes back to what you're saying, which is learning how to navigate all of the emotions and be with them and feel uncomfortable and sad and know how to manage them, not avoid, run away, be distracted by them.

Right, that's right. Because, like, when I, you know, I always joke, when I was in private practice, I saw a lot of, you know, 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds, and not one of them came to my practice saying, Dr. Becky, like, I had the best parents. And, you know, those emotions other people feel, like, jealous and sad and like those hard things, I, I got rid of them. My parents got rid of them. I've never felt them again. Like, that's never. That obviously has never happened. But what happened over and over, even though no one said it, but their stories and behavior really exemplified it, was, I am now 23, I'm now 45, and I'm literally no better able to regulate frustration and disappointment and sadness than I was when I was a toddler. Wow. But the stakes are higher.

Way higher as an adult.

Way higher. So emotion regulation, that is the goal of childhood. I mean, that's the goal of adulthood too, by the way. It's still the goal. We're all working on it.

You've been called like the millennial parenting whisperer. Is that right?

I think time Magazine wrote that one.

Time magazine called you the millennial parenting whisperer. I've had Cesar Millan, who's the dog whisperer? On. And, you know, people come in to say, hey, how do you fix my dog? And he fixes humans, essentially. He teaches humans how to lead themselves better. And it sounds like parents come to you and say, how do I fix my kid? And you're coming to them and saying, well, you need to learn how to be a better leader and heal and reprogram yourself and learn how to regulate your emotions so you can manage these situations. Would that be accurate?

That is completely accurate. And I think, you know, I double down on that and say, I think when we have kids, we have this unconscious wish that they're gonna heal us.

Ooh.

And they trigger us. Oh, that's what happens when you have kids.

So I say it again.

We have an unconscious wish that our kids will heal us. And in reality, our kids trigger us.

Why do we think our kids will heal us?

Because I think, in general, we all have to wish that something in the external world, something we can gaze out at will finally give us the comfort and the sense of safety and security that we've always been yearning for. And part of adulthood, I think, involves learning to gaze in not from a place of it's my fault, but from a place of actually, like, I have the power, and it's hard, but I have the power to do that myself.

Wow. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so wanna get to the third thing? Yes, let's go to the third thing.

The third thing I want parents to know and, like, to me, this is. I should have said it's the first thing. I messed up my order. Save the best for last. Start over.

But the second thing was resilience over happiness.

Yes.

And. Well, I want to ask you, before you get a third thing, how do we raise resilient children?

Okay, then this is. I'm excited. I'm excited. We can put the third thing out there. We'll leave everyone with a cliffhanger. What's the third thing? If this one's important, if that one's even more important. Okay. So I think, first of all, again, we have to understand before we intervene. So how do we build resilience? Well, what is resilience? Right. And we have to really understand that. And I think that resilience really is our ability to tolerate hard things. And the word tolerate is important because we all think it's the ability to, like, get through it. The getting through happens when it happens. And the Truth is, the longer you can tolerate something, not something toxic, that is so not what I'm talking about or abusive. But the longer you can tolerate something hard, then the success is gonna find itself and it's gonna be more likely cause you were able to stay in the hard place.

Can you give me an example of what this would be like for a parent and a child?

Sure. I can give you two different examples. Very concretely. Right. So this is something I teach to a lot of parents in one of my favorite, my frustration tolerance workshop, which is relevant for school, for everything. So let's say, and let's say my three year old is doing a puzzle. I can't do it. You do it for me. You do it for me. A good example. Right. And as a parent, I get it. You got home, you're like, this is like the last thing I want to do.

Tired, I want to relax.

I was going to have a nice night with like, you know, my kid. I get it. But I'm really driven by impact. And so like I actually get this like sick joy when my kid is on the verge of a meltdown.

Really?

Yes. Especially when I've been working a lot because I'm like, if I'm going to spend 20 minutes with my kid, I'm going to make it count. And like, it's nice if I'm there for a pleasant 20 minutes, of course. But if I want to have impact, I like literally can picture my impact on him.

So you're like hoping when you come home that you have like a breakdown and that temperature, because that's when there's gonna be a big breakthrough. Right.

But in a way, I think that's a really important reframe. Interesting. Especially if you're a parent who travels a lot or you're not around a lot to be like, wait, I can have impact. It's not easy. It's certainly not convenient. That's the one word parents need to know. Having kids is not fun or convenient in most situations. It's not at all. And this is like your, it's like your super bowl right now. I guess this is your opportunity, you know, because my kid and how I respond to the puzzle is not gonna remember anything about the puzzle. Their body, not from that one time, but from patterns, is going to be developing expectations around what can I do when things get hard?

What can I get away with? Right.

Or yeah. And what, what should I expect? What is my self talk? A parent's words become a child's self talk.

A parent's Words become a child's self talk.

Wow. Yes.

So what your parents say to you over and over again is what you.

Say to yourself, especially when paired with an emotional situation. So when I'm frustrated, did I have someone come? And I always say, like, frustration is now, like, super bright. Do I expect someone to come and turn off the light? No frustration. Or do I expect someone to come and, like, by the way, they're present with me, they dim. They dim the light. So it's just not so blinding, not so intense. Emotion regulation.

Interesting.

Like, that's the best it gets. There are drugs that will do that better for you, but they have, you know, that's not what we recommend for people long term. Like, when we're talking about true emotion regulation, we're talking about a dimmer. Because it's impossible to deal with something when it's a 10 out of 10. Even nine out of 10 is really hard. Once you get to an eight or a seven, it's not pleasant, it's not convenient. But you, you, you start to be able to tolerate it. And from there you can, you know, get maybe to a 6 or a 5. That's the goal for our kid. So I'll model this. My kid is freaking out about the puzzle. Now, to be clear, are there some times that I'd be like, I'm giving myself permission to do the puzzle because I can't deal with this? Of course, I'm a normal human. Everybody has to give that permission themselves.

And so, Dr. Becky, you're not a perfect parent.

Like, zero. No, no, no, no. Everyone listening to what I'm saying, don't think, like, I actually do this all the time.

You're not every day. You come home at night after a long day, and you're just like, okay, what do you need right now? And you're stressed out. Okay, I'm gonna do this puzzle with you. Yeah.

And that will eventually get to point three. And I wouldn't wish Dr. Becky, as a real parent on any kid. It's just like, you learn the most. I'm sure you too, in life. You learn the most from people who struggle and repair. Of course. Right. So, but here's this, like, moment, and I can go through an older kid example too, because it's not as obvious, but my kid is frustrated. My kid's gonna be frustrated for the rest of their life. In higher stakes situations, they're gonna be given something from a boss. Be like, I don't know how to do this. And, like, I actually don't. First of all, I definitely don't want my kid, when they're 25, to call me and be like, can you do my project for me? And definitely don't want that. I don't want them to be indignant. How could this person have. I want them to have some type of weight. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I have a feeling I can just think this through or get a little further. So if that's what I want there. That is not unrelated to the pattern of how I interact now. Wow. So I could say, here's the piece. Once in a while I do that. Not great for long term resilience. So here's what I might do. Okay. And I'm gonna. My kid is starting to have a tantrum, and even he's saying, do the piece. I can't do it. I'm saying, sweetie, sweetie, this is so hard. This is so hard. And I know. I have real kids. It's not like they are gonna say to me, oh, that's so helpful to hear. No, it's not gonna happen. They're gonna still freaking out. But their reaction is different than the power of my intervention. Also, two separate things. I might say this. I might say, oh, so many pieces. I don't know where it goes. Does it go here? Does it go here? Does it go here? And if my kid is like, do it for me. I really. And I've said this to my kid, listen, sweetie, I'm not gonna do it for you. Here's why. I know you're capable of figuring this out. And the best feeling in the world is the feeling you get when you think you can't do something. And then you wait a little bit and you see that you can do a little bit more. And I'm not gonna take that feeling away from you. And so I'll take a deep breath with you. We can take a break. But, like, I know you can do this. Okay. And when I hear people be like, does that work? Yes. I mean, doesn't that work for adults? Imagine you're you having a hard time at your job, and you saying to your manager, like, you do this one. If they're like, listen, I'm not. Because I know you're capable. And, like, it's okay if it takes some time. It's okay if you take a break. I can be here to, like, kind of think about where could that piece go? Ooh, is that an edge? Ooh, edge is in the middle. Probably not in the puzzle. Where do. Oh, you're right. Edges go on the outside. Look at you. My kid experiences the win and what their body learns is when I get frustrated, I don't look for the answer. For someone to take that away from me and give me immediate success, by the way, if we really want to get into it. If you want to know what entitlement is, Entitlement is the accumulated experience of feeling frustrated and then having someone else give you immediate success.

Wow. That's what it is without you having to do it.

And I'll never forget seeing this family of 16 year olds who was like horrified their kid had a full on tantrum at 16 because they weren't flying first class. And they were like, oh my gosh, every parent's nightmare. And they're like, how do we get an entitled kid? The most well meaning parents, but this was a kid every time something didn't go his way. And I think money makes this more complicated because you can buy kind of your way out of kids frustration. You can. So it's almost hard to resist that if that's an option. But every time it was like frustration, success, frustration, a new option, frustration. I figured it out because someone else did something for me. Well, when you finally get to the point at 16, if that's your circuit and then you're frustrated because something's surprising, it's not really about first class. Your body actually is like, wtf? I literally was not built to tolerate this and then it ends up looking awful. But really, it's really vulnerable. Right?

Super vulnerable.

Super vulnerable. So I want to give you one more example of resilience. There's three lines I think every parent needs to know. And I honestly can almost reframe that saying. I think every person in a relationship needs to know whether you're in a romantic relationship, a work relationship, it's the same stuff. Because another resilience building moment I can imagine is kind of like what I said to you earlier. Let's say your kid's a little older. I'm the only kid who doesn't know how to read chapter books. Or I'm the only one of my friends who didn't get into honors math.

So teenagers.

Yeah. I'd say that I'm the only kid who didn't get into honors math. I tried out for the lacrosse team. All my kids, my friends made it.

And I said it and I didn't make it.

Yeah, everyone, me included. Okay. My first instinct is to, quote, make my kid feel better. Oh, you're gonna make it next year or you Made varsity soccer, and none of them made soccer. Right. Whatever. Whatever the thing is. Or we say, you're gonna see. It's not a big deal. Okay? So here's the image. I'm big on images where this is.

Gonna matter in 20 years. Or whatever you're.

Yeah, we say.

Right.

The truth is we kind of say it because we're uncomfortable and we're just kind of making a kid a pawn in our game. But, like, if you picture your kid on a bench, and if you picture, like, them kind of in a garden, that's what I like to see. That's like the parable for life, the garden. And there's a bench. And essentially when your kid says, I'm the only one who didn't make the lacrosse team, let's say they're sitting on the bench of what is it? Disappointment? Or maybe it's embarrassment or both, or feeling surprised and let down. I don't know. It's something like that. That's the bench. And as parents, we tend to have two instincts when our kid is on the bench. Kind of some type of distress. We either want to tell them that their bench isn't their bench. That's not a big deal. Even though they're like, but I'm.

But that's how I feel.

But I'm on it. Yeah. Or we kind of see a sunnier bench, and we're like, just come with me. Right. But like, you're the best at, you know, at soccer. And so we're like, right. And both of those reduce resilience. Because resilience is kind of like your ability in that garden of life to, like, whatever bench you find yourself on, you're able to sit in it. Not drown in it, but sit in it. Cause when you're there, you inevitably will be. You're not terrified of it. You're not spending all your energy running away from a bench. If you saw that, you'd be like, dude, just a bench. And so how do we help our kid feel essentially, like, it's okay to be them no matter what bench they're on. Or really, it's okay to be you even when you don't make the lower cost team. Cause that's really the essence. That's the core thing that resilience is about.

So how long should they sit on that bench of emotion?

Great. So to me, these three lines will play that out. So to me, as soon as your kid says something distressing to you, we have those two urges. We have to recognize them. We're not Bad people just, I always say, say hi to them. Hello. Urge to make it better. And here to me is the first line every parent needs in their toolbox. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.

To the child. Say that to the child right away when they're stressed out, when they're angry, upset, shameful, any. Any unsettling emotion that you don't enjoy yourself, say back to them, I'm so glad you're telling me this right now.

That's right. I'm so glad we're talking about this because. And again, if we think about it in an adult context, if I was like, I'm so mad at my husband. He never. Whatever, Whatever it is, he never is home for bedtime and he forgot the one thing I said. And if I was like, hey, like, you're never doing anything around the house. And I'm really frustrated. If he said to me, you know what, Becky? Well, you're upset, but like, I'm so glad you're telling me about this. Like, you know, relationships, I'd be like, I think we're good now. Like, I don't. I don't even know what was I upset about. Because what someone's really saying to you when they say that is this feeling in you that you're feeling is real. And I still want to be in a relationship with you when you're feeling that way.

Yeah. I still love and accept you.

That's right. And so our kids need to absorb from us from a resilience perspective. My parent can tolerate this part of me before I learn to tolerate this part of me.

Wow.

So that's line one. Line two. I believe you. I always say, like, if there's one line that would be probably the most healing in people's childhoods.

Wow.

And the most confidence building from childhood. It's that. And it's so simple. Like. Cause when you say to someone, what.

If you really don't believe them, though?

Well, there's always something you should believe. So. Right. Because like, they're like, I didn't make the lacrosse team and like, I'm never going to be able to go to school again or something. Like, it's so embarrassing. Right. I'm not saying, I guess you can never go to school again. That's not what I'm believing.

Right. I believe that's how you feel.

That's right. You don't have to say that. Because underneath our kids extreme verbalizations, we get very caught up in their words.

Yes.

They represent a world we Believe the world. And so even though, like, I'm never going to school again, I would say, like, I believe it feels that bad. And because I do, it does. And it's like, it just. It is like he's on that bench, like, Right.

I especially have someone at that age who doesn't have the skills of emotional resilience. So they're building it still, and they haven't figured out how to manage those emotions. It seems horrifying.

That's right.

It seems terrifying.

That's right. And if my kid says, I'm the only one who didn't get a chapter book, you know, I got this picture book and everyone else is reading chapter books. It's so easy to say, you can't be the only one. We actually say to our kids all the time, which terrifies me. I don't believe you. And if we wonder why people don't trust their emotions, it's because when they felt emotions that were strong, they received not one time over and over a message of, I know your feelings better than you know your feelings or just.

Suck it up or it's not that big a deal. Or just kind of undermining their emotions.

That's right. And so when I think about. I believe you. I do. Like, I have a daughter. I have three kids. I have a daughter. And like, I don't know why. I always picture, like, she's at some, like, college party and some, like, kind of uncomfortable situation. Let's just say.

How old is she now?

How old she now? She's nine.

But let's just say she's nine in the future.

She's 20. And someone's like, I don't know, come back with me. And let's just. If she wants to, great. But let's say she doesn't.

Yeah.

You know, those situations be like, it's not a big deal. You know, do I want her self talk to be. I do have a history of other people knowing what I'm feeling better than I know what I'm feeling. Or do I want her to be like. Like, I know I don't want to go home. I, like, I want to cry. Like, I believe myself and I. This person is telling me I want something else. But, like, how could this person know? Because I know what I'm feeling, and those things are completely related. And so that's the second line. Wow. And then the third line is equally simple. It's just, tell me more, tell me more. Oh, and then. Oh, so they posted the list on the pin. Wait, so Everyone was. Oh, my goodness. Everyone was there. And let's say I knew my son had a crush, and someone. Oh, that person. Oh, that person was there too. And you were, like, so excited you were gonna, like, be on the lacrosse team. And that person saw.

Saw that you failed and.

Exactly. So I'm just, like, fleshing out the story. And now at all these moments that my kid was in pain, which, by the way, part of the pain was probably that they were alone. Kind of infusing myself in every moment, I'm adding connection. I'm adding leaving.

Interesting.

And here's the thing about the bench. In my experience, when you kind of go through this, your kid gets off the bench before you do every time.

Really?

And then you're like, oh, I guess. Where are they going next? And when they need you to come back. Yeah. Or you find them on that next bench.

Interesting. So they'll get off this bench faster. Of emotions. If you go through one or all three of these questions or these phrases. Right.

We really do. And look, we can't just say them. Like, if I'm sitting at my kid, I'm like, I believe you. Tell me more. They're gonna be like, what are you doing? Did you hear that on some podcast? You know, so that won't help. Right. We process intention and tone before language. So that has to be there. And, like, I don't wanna say it's some magic. And to me, when do kids get off it? Like, I don't know. We all feel feelings for whatever amount of time, you know, but if, like, I get it, like, parents are sometimes worried, like, am I gonna stick them there? Like, feelings don't give us problems as much as feeling alone in our feelings give us problems.

Feeling alone in our feelings give us problems.

That's what makes us stuck.

Interesting.

We're literally stuck because we're alone, like humans are. We're beings of connection and attachment. Attachment is what's driving us. So we're always attachment seeking. And when we're not getting the attachment we need, we. We will get stuck and frozen. Like you were kind of referring to you're frozen. And so it's interesting. We have such a fear of, if I connect, I'll keep them there longer. It's actually aloneness that keeps them when they're longer and actually makes them intensify things. Because when we don't get our emotions taken seriously by someone, everyone forget being a kid. Adult, too. You escalate the expression because you're that much more desperate to be taken seriously. Which usually makes people be like, I can't. You're so dramatic. Okay. You know, now they have to escalate even more. Yeah, exactly.

Until you pay attention to me.

Exactly. Which is why the I believe you. And it can be healing, too. And repair. Like, hey, you know, like, you're still stuck on this lacrosse thing. Because I get it from a parent. Like, they didn't make lacrosse four months ago. Talk to your.

Still talking about it.

Right. But if you just assume and it's not right, but it might be effective. Right? Like, there's a million ways to interpret things. I always say, like, you can be right or you can be effective. Like, I urged the effective. You know, so just say, like, you know what? I don't feel like I ever fully understand how awful that day was. I'm just gonna sit in your bed. And the idea of sitting on a bench, like, I think that's usual. It's like, sit on the bed with your teen or, you know, and I'm just gonna listen. And I would say to your kid, not listen to judge or give you an idea. Because actually, that's not listening. Listen, understand. And that just means I want to hear you. I might ask things to clarify, but what I've never said to you and I should have said is I believe you, that that day felt as bad as you said it did. And, like, not like normal bad. Not like, I went to my favorite ice cream store and got an ice cream and it dropped off my cone. Not like a billion times worse than that. And I just. How parents. I feel like parents would be like, my kid really, like, my kid started crying or my kid, like, something released and they softened, like, and you know, this, like, at our core, we are desperate to be believed. That's like our most core need.

Yes, it's true.

Just believed and seen, seen. And like, so, so many of these times when a parent feels like my kid is stuck in that. The thing that we need to shift is actually taking the opposite approach. We usually, like, you don't need to feel like that anymore. That was four months. It's actually sticking them more. It's just like, wait.

Staying in the emotion more, saying, let's talk about it more. Tell me more about this.

Yeah, just tell me more. I must not have understood something. And then, of course, it's helpful to have language. Look, this was super, super helpful. Like, kind of. I wouldn't say this to my kid, but we're going to time box this. You know, like, things that, you know.

And, you know, thought about it for what, 30 minutes? And then.

Sure. I always, like, talk when I used to work with adults who are really kind of looping in their anxiety, like, we're never worry window for the top of an hour for 10 minutes, you're gonna literally just focus on everything you're worried about. And if you ever have a productive, hopeful thought, you're actually gonna say, sorry, no worry time.

No, no, I'm only negative stress only right now.

And I'm gonna write it all down. And then during the other 15 minutes, you're gonna say, hi, worries. And don't worry. It's kind of like when you have multiple kids, you don't even want my attention. Now you don't have my full attention. You're gonna get my full attention at 2 or 15 minutes away. And our feelings, actually, they kind of do respect that, and I think kids would too. So I want to talk to you about lacrosse. And I want to be honest, I want to talk about it. I haven't been the best listener. I really haven't. I'm going to do that differently. You're going to see I'm not going to be perfect, but you'll see a difference at 110. That's what I'm going to call it. Not because you're not allowed to have feelings after that, but feelings are tricky. Like, it's super helpful to know them. And it's helpful for feelings to know they even have a boundary. And so at that point, you know, like, we're going to do something else, or at least I'm going to do something else. Yeah, we could do that.

Now, everything you say here makes a lot of sense to me, and I fully believe and understand that this is a great approach to building relationship with anyone. Right? A partner, a child, anyone. But I think about, you know, our grandparents generation or our great grandparents generation that didn't have the conveniences, the ease, the speed of things that we do, the flexibility, the just pay for something and you have a solution done in seconds. The distractions. And I could see them saying, you know, what are you guys talking about? This just. What do you mean? Have all these loving conversations and really sit down for 30 minutes and let them talk about nonsense or whatever. You know, I could just think about our grandparents generation, some of them thinking, what does this even mean? Because we don't have that luxury to do that. Yeah, we've got to work hard. You know, there's wars happening. We've got challenge. We're all this stuff we're dealing with. Than trying to deal with a simple little emotion. I'm all for not ding. Being that way. I'm all for having loving, vulnerable conversations. But again, what I'm hearing you say is learning how to prepare individuals to be resilient is going to be one of the greatest skills that they can learn. But it seems like it's really tough these days to build resilient children into young adults and adults with all the ease, flexibility, and distractions we have.

I mean, I think you're absolutely right. It is really hard. I think it doubles down on the reason why parents are like, okay, where's my school? Where's my resources? Because, like, this is a hard world. So there's a couple things I say. Like, if someone ever said to me, like, becky, this does not make sense. Like, this is like. It's like, oh, you're talking about lacrosse feelings forever. Like, I really mean this. Like, if they were in the room saying that to me, 0% of me would even want to be like, here's my argument back. I really. Like, I'm a deeply curious person. Like, I really am. I'd be like, oh, like, well, and what would that lead to? Like, what would you be worried would happen? Like, what would we be missing there? Oh, that's a good point. Or, oh, I see it this way. Like, I would. Actually, there's nothing I love more than engaging in people who have very different opinions from me, not because I see it as a match. Like, I actually learn a ton. So I have deep respect from people who don't think that way and would say that's the way the conversation would go. One thing I'll say, though, is we have this idea, and it's been passed on to us generation after generation, that, like, feelings are soft. It's just, like, bananas to me. Like, no part of me, like, when I think about my style, my approach, like, the word softer, people actually say to me often because there's whole field of gentle parenting. Like, tell me about gentle parenting. I don't even know exactly how you define gentle parenting. Gentle is like, one of the. Is the lowest on the list of adjectives I'd use to describe myself. That doesn't mean. Mean. There's a lot between. But gentle, soft, like, that is so not me. Right? That's just not my style. It's not my approach.

What is your style of parenting?

I call. I mean, if I had to put a name to it, and I hate boxing myself in, but it would be like, the word sturdy is it? And to me, Sturdiness is your ability to both be connected to someone else and stay connected to yourself at the same time. And the irony, and this is what I think is so interesting, we feel before we think. Our feelings are what give us basic information about survival, about danger, and about what we need. That's what our feeling is like. Anger is a feeling. Most of us haven't learned to manage it. That's a different topic. But anger is a feeling that tells you what you need. That's useful information to live a life in line with your values. Like feelings being soft. Like, I feel like someone said that thousands of years ago and for some reason, like, it. It doesn't. Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. It's the first thing. What? First thing in a circuit is soft. It's primary. It's literally primary. Now, most of us were not raised to manage our emotions, but the way I see it from the start is kids are born with all of the emotions and none of the skills to manage emotions.

Wow.

And for generations, we've said the emotions are the problem. The lack of skills are the problem.

Right.

Because the emotions, they're gonna beat us every day. They're inside of us. You can't get rid of them. If you can't beat em, join em. Like, that's soft. It's like something we justify to ourselves so we don't feel weak.

Well, the funny thing is parents, they don't like the emotions of the child, but they can't manage their own emotions a lot of times.

Well, that's actually what it is when we say. Let's say my kid is melting down. Because classic. Let's say toddler, I cut their grilled cheese in half.

Yeah.

You know where I cut it in a triangle instead of the rectangle.

Or you're gonna cut the. The edges off.

Exactly. That's easier. At least I can now do that. Or I did cut the crust off. Now I'm trying to, like, tape it back together or something, you know? Right. So my kid's having a tantrum. And we say to ourselves, and it sounds convincing. My kid is so difficult. We're not reacting to our kid's tantrum. We are reacting to. To what happens inside of us when our kid is a tantrum. And the only reason we want to shut down the tantrum is because we want to shut down this feeling we don't have the skill to manage.

And so again, that we're inferior.

Yeah. Like, we actually, like, we're like, you have to stop because Our body actually is like, I don't know how to tolerate the feeling in me. In me. Which kind of why it all goes back to our. Not our fault, but our skill building.

And our ability to heal.

Our ability to heal and kind of this reframing. Like, I would love someone to come out and someone, like, more, you know, stereotypically masculine to be. Like, maybe emotions aren't soft. Maybe they're pretty. Pretty tough, those things, you know? Like, maybe that's like, our core. It is our core, you know, like, and the other thing about being soft, and I just. I always have to say this. Like, I think about the situation where we, like, dole out random punishments to our kids. Like, my kid is having this tantrum, and I'm like, go to your room or no iPad for the week or no dessert. That is freaking soft to me, really. Like, that is desperate. No parent is doing that from a place of groundedness. Like, I'm the CEO of my company. Like, if one of my employees was, like, acting out in some way, and I was like, go to your room and no lunch for a week, do you think everyone around me would be like, becky is kicking ass. Like, what an amazing.

They'd be like, wow, she's breaking down in front of us. He's breaking down.

Breaking down.

She just seems like a leader.

Yeah, Literally, she's desperate.

Wow. Is that what they said to you last week or.

No, but, like, when people ask me for that, it's like, guess what? I lead with the same principles. Like, my job as a leader in that situation is I might have to set a boundary, which is something we could talk about. Because I love talking about boundaries, and I think most people get them wrong. And I might have to connect with that employee after. Maybe the employee's always interrupting me or something. But, like, sending someone away or, like, taking away something random, like, it's just. I don't know why that's a sign of, like, awesome leadership. It's a sign of desperation. And in that way, I think that way of parenting is super soft.

So what's the best way to. To. I don't know if you want to call it punish your children, but what is the best way to create a lesson within them through either punishment or something else.

Right. And I wanna ask your first question. Cause it's what I get. So my kid did this saying, what's a good punishment? Or how do I give up good punishment? Or, I don't do punishments, but I do do consequences. Whatever they say.

Right, Right, right, right. Boundaries Whatever they say, that's right.

And to me, this actually gets to the core of why I started writing. Right. Because I was trained in a very different way of working with parents. It was all punishments, timeouts, rewards, sticker charts, ignoring praise. It's kind of like praise the good to get more of the good, punish or ignore the bad to get less of the bad. And when I went through this very esteemed program, to me, it was my first reaction. I was like, this is amazing.

Because the program taught you these strategies.

Yes. This is, like, probably still the gold standard out there to teach psychologists for how to work with parents who work with kids 100%. And what happens is it lights up the left part of your brain because it's so linear and it's so seemingly logical. I don't think it's logical when you break it down, but you're like, that's right. Like, I'm gonna get more of the good behavior. I'm gonna get less of the bad behavior. And so it all kind of, like, made sense at the time. But then I think what happened in my private practice is, like, I would be. I would. I was like, teaching parents these ways. You know, they'd come to me, and my kid is, you know, doing something that would deserve a punishment. I'd say, okay, I'm gonna teach you how to give a timeout. Here's exactly to do it. There's a protocol, and here's the sticker chart program you're gonna put them on. And this. I want you to give them praise in this way. And when they do this, I just want you to kind of ignore them. Like, they're not there. Like, it's this whole, like, behavior. It's like raising kids through behavioral control. Like, people don't say that, but it's kind of what it is. But I taught this, and while I was teaching it, so having my own kids, it sounds like it's kind of.

Like training animals, though.

Except it's. What's really interesting is I've started to. I said that a couple times. And actually, some of the more modern people who do animal training are like, please don't say that. We actually don't. I mean, we don't train dogs that way anymore. And I was like, wow, we've elevated dogs. Dogs.

Dogs are beyond that now.

Yes. Yes.

Isn't that crazy? Like, that's beneath our dogs.

Yeah. Because our kids are our most, least respected citizens. Right. We don't realize that they actually have the same needs as us. I guess dogs do too. But so I was in session one day and honestly, for probably the last six months, the way I would say is, I was saying this and my brain was like, yes, timeouts, yes. Makes so much sense. I'm helping these people. And it's so clear. It's just so clear. And when kids do something bad, I'm just gonna say, feels it does feel good to give a punishment or a timeout. Cause you're like, I just did something. And you kind of get to like, vomit your frustration onto them. Like, that's all it really is. You're like, now I don't have to feel bad. I'm just gonna put it on you. So I get it. And I was teaching it. And this feeling, I just couldn't describe it. It's like my body was just like rising like it was first. Like, I don't know about this. And I was like, okay. And like, becky, I really don't know about this. And I was like, well, what else is there? And I remember having. I was like, I don't know. I don't know what else is there? So I kept having these sessions. And then one day these parents came and I was teaching them how to give a timeout. And like, it truly was one of those, I would say out of body, but it was a massively in body experience. That, like, that feeling got so loud in me. That's the only way I can describe what actually happened. That I couldn't finish the teaching. And I just said to them, this is gonna sound really weird, but I don't believe what I'm telling you, literally. And I'll never forget their look. And they were just like, seriously, like, you came very highly recommended.

Yeah, we paid you a lot of money for this session.

We paid you money. And I was like, I will give you back your money. And they're like, yes, you will. And I was like, of course. And I was like, and come back in like a couple weeks. I just have to figure something out. And they were like, we will not be coming back. I was like, and I do not blame you. Like, this is a very weird experience. I'm sorry. It's actually funny. Like, with everything I've done now, I keep being like, I think they're going to reach out to me one day.

They never have.

Not yet. I don't know. But it just was like, I didn't feel right. And there's all of this evidence for it. I'm a believer in evidence and I love science, but it's always interesting. Like, it works. Like, works. What does work mean? And I think this gets to the core of your question. Like, does work mean my kid has an intense reaction? Does work mean that if I happen to have a people pleasing kid who's very attentive to my gaze and hates to disappoint me, that they'll change their behavior for that reason? By the way, they will have a whole host of other problems by the time they're adults.

Really. I mean, what would those problems be for kids like that who just want to please their parents constantly, that that's.

The form of an attachment they formed. And so they end up going to adulthood not only being with, but actually seeking out and being attracted to people who are like, tell me I'm good. Tell me I'm good for you and what I want, what's going on for me doesn't matter. My safety comes from making sure you are pleased with me.

Wow.

I don't have to tell you the type of relationships and Right. But that and it's not so like, and that's what's gonna happen. Never too late. But like that, that's not something I think every I'm gonna say, especially like mom I know and woman I know is trying to like undo a lot of that. So, you know, and I'll never forget a clinical supervisor saying like, you know what else would work for kids? Because I remember he earlier than me was skeptical about all these like timeouts. He's like, every time my kid did something bad, I made them sleep on the New York City street. Like, but I don't know if I had evidence to show that that worked. If that's evidence to brag about, I'll never forget it. I'm like, not. That's a good point. Like, what do we mean when we have to be a little more critical? Right. Of. And I just remember in this session being like, I know there's evidence and I don't just count all of it. And it's not like all so bad. I'm not a rigid thinker, but this sounds so cheesy. But like, what about the evidence in my body that this is wrong? I don't know. I don't think it's superior evidence. It's not. But like, what about that? And what about the evidence I have for my private practice with adults where I watch them change their lives based on an approach I use with them that is a 180 degree difference from what I've been telling parents to do with their kids? Like, what about that? And like. And then what ended up happening is I was like, I'm going to take this very, like, first principles approach to parenting. Like, right. You strip back every assumption, anything that could be assumption. You're like, no, no. And what are you left with? And I was left with one thing. One. Because there's all these assumptions. If you don't punish a behavior, it's like you're saying it's okay. Exactly. When kids do bad things, you have to punish. And I was like, I think that's an assumption. Like, that's an assumption again. Because, like, if I wasn't my nicest to my husband and he's like, I have to punish you, I'd be like, I don't think anyone would be like that.

I'm not gonna speak to you for a week.

Yeah. I don't think I'd be like, you have a wonderful husband. No one would think they'd be concerned for me. And so I was left with one thing. And it was just like, kids are good inside. And there is a difference between good inside identity and bad behavior. And I've always been very attracted to gaps that don't make sense because it's where you can, like, think and wonder. And I just started asking questions. Why would good kids do bad things? Why would good people. Why do good people do bad things? And then I came up with this phrase, like, well, what would be my most generous interpretation? And to me, this is like, a massive skill in adulthood, too. Like, what is my most generous interpretation of why my employee is coming in late? What is my most generous interpretation of why my kid is jumping on the couch? Even though I looked at them and I said, please stop jumping on the couch. And they looked at me and they.

Smiled and then they jumped on the couch.

Like, I know my least generous interpretation because we come up with that fast. Cause we're like, well, my kid's a sociopath. And it's like, so fast. And every parent's like, I think that all the time. Because we go there and then we of course interact with our kid based on that interpretation, which, of course, you then send your kid to their room. So what is my most generous interpretation? Everyone came back to the same thing. I have a good kid who doesn't have the skills. They don't have the skills. They're struggling. I have a kid who's having a hard time not giving me a hard time. And the pathway you take from having a hard time versus giving me a hard time could not be more different. And you ask different questions. So when parents say to me, what's the punishment? It's like to me a question is like a road you're asking someone to walk down with you in life. That's how I think about questions. And for me, when parent asked me that question, I'm like, I just, that's not a road I'm gonna walk down. It's not gonna lead us to a productive place. Right. Like there's a different road I can walk down with you. Whether it's like, I wonder why we think punishment, you know, is the right thing. But even more practically, let's say it's the jumping on the couch. Like, what's the most generous interpretation here? And I'm not a softie. Again, I'm very practical. I want change for kids behavior. Like I've like, very, like I have like a little window that I can be tolerant. I get it. Like, and I'm all for these wins that last. But then I would just ask a different question. Not what punishment but what skill literally would my kid need so that the next time this happens they actually have a new skill to use as opposed to being punished for not having had that skill. Same thing with a football player. Like your quarterback is like, I don't know, constantly throwing interceptions. Like, I guess you could punish the.

Quarterback or teach them new skills, but.

Like, why then would the quarterback do anything differently the next time they were under that condition? Like, why doesn't you make. That's where the logic breaks down. Or I can in practice be like every time, I don't know, whenever it is this happens. We've noticed your pattern. And so actually in practice we're gonna practice that. We're pause you and we're gonna have you notice what you're about to do. And I'm gonna teach you something else.

You just triggered something in me. It's like when I would get screamed at by the coaches that I felt like were less effective when I would drop the ball if they were like, why did you do that? Catch the ball. It's like you think I'm trying to drop the. I'm not trying to drop the ball. But now I'm going to go out there the next time and don't drop the ball this time. It's like, now I'm anxious, now I'm nervous. Now everyone's watching. Now there's higher stakes, there's pressure and I'm going to try to do my best. And if I drop it again, it's just like now I'm A failure. It's not empowering me to be better. It's not teaching me a skill. It's not saying, okay, the goal is for you to catch the ball. Let's talk about what might have happened for you. What were you thinking? What were you feeling? Do you need more? Whatever skills you need. So I like this approach to addressing the skill or the lesson or something to be taught as opposed to blaming, shaming, or punishing.

Yeah. And again, like, to me, like, it's just zero percent soft. It's just, like, how people change. And to me, the phrase same team.

It'S also called leadership.

It's leadership. And I think same team is a helpful phrase to get in that mindset. I feel like if a coach said to you, louis, we're on the same team. And Louis, like, I know you know you're supposed to catch the wall. You do not need me to tell you that. Like, we don't say, like, our kids know that they shouldn't be hitting. Like, they know so. But if you think about that, that can anger parents. They know better. And frankly, I know better than to scroll my phone before bed.

Sure, sure.

Still do it, right? So if you approach someone like, hey, Lewis, we're on the same team, and I know you know this, and this is like, a helpful phrase even to think there's something that's getting in your way this game. I don't really know what it is, but I do know we're going to break it down together and figure it out. How are you going to feel like.

You feel a lot better. Oh, he's on my side or she's on my side. They see what I'm up to. You know, they're with me in the pain, whatever it might be.

That's right. And I don't think. You think. I think my coach thinks it's fine if I drop the next ball. Like, no one thinks that. You're just like, now you have an opportunity to change. So if we get this jumping on the couc example, because I think it's.

Like a. Yeah, it's a good one.

It's a good one. And it actually brings us to boundaries, which is like, one of my favorite life topics. Okay. Because as much as I like feelings, I like boundaries because this is where we've gone a little too far. Some people. People are like, okay, I'm not punishing my kid. Their feelings matter. But then it's like kids feelings like drive decision making, and that is drive.

Decisions for parents and the whole family. Right.

Equally as bad for kids as sending them to their room. So validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy. I will go on the record and say that.

Say it again.

Validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy.

Right? It's part of the strategy, yes, but.

It cannot be the whole thing.

And also to pause there, because I want to hear the final there. But when parents allow the children to dictate how the family is run, what happens then?

Terrifying for kids. So, like, to me, this is how I describe it. Okay, so imagine you're on a plane and you're a passenger. Okay. Are you actually a pilot? I'm not a pilot. Trained to be a pilot. Surprise me. What else? Then I'm like, I'm gonna pick a different metaphor. Okay, so you're a passenger, and I'm the pilot. And it's very turbulent, and you're looking around like, all the passengers are, like, freaking out. Right? So pilot one would be like, classic punishment, parent. And they'd get on. It's not called a loudspeaker.

The intercom or the intercom.

Thank you. And they'd say, like, everyone back there, stop. You're. You're so dramatic. You're making a big deal of nothing, and you're ruining my flight. Something like that, right? This is what we say to our kids. Like, you're ruining my dinner. Out. Whatever we say. Meanwhile, if I'm thinking about you, passenger, you're like, first of all, does this person know it's pretty turbulent? Like, they didn't even mention that. Cause it is. Second, all it takes is passengers being upset to kind of make my pilot go off the deep end.

That's scary.

You're more scared. Okay? But Pilot 2 is the opposite extreme. Everyone back there is scared. And you know what? It is scary. And I'm just gonna open the cockpit door. If anyone wants to come in here and take over, be my guest. Terrifying. Terrifying where we're like, your feelings were just contagious. And that's what happens, right? Where someone's like, I don't want. I don't wanna. I don't. I wanna watch one more show. I wanna watch one more show now. If as a parent, you think, you know what? I don't care about having them watch another show. I thought about it. I am changing my decision because I made that shift. Kids can smell, and they know. Whether it's that or all of a sudden, they're like, ugh, okay, I guess you can go to bed late, because tomorrow. Oh, okay, fine. And a kid feels like, you open the cockpit door.

You influence them. Yeah. Yeah.

And now they can make big decisions. That is actually terrifying for a kid because they feel like they don't have a leader. They don't have a pilot.

Kids love boundaries, don't they?

They love boundaries. It would be like if your pilot was like, we have to make an emergency landing. And everyone's like, no, I don't want to land in Denver. And the pilot's like, okay, forget it.

We'll just crash.

Exactly. You're like, just right. So the third pilot, to me, is the essence of sturdy leadership, which, to me, are those pillars validating other people's feelings and staying connected to your own role through your boundaries. And to me, the pilot you want to hear there is. I hear that everyone's freaking out. You're right. I hear you. It's very turbulent.

Stay calm.

And even if it's a pilot, you don't think it's that turbulent. You can still say, I recognize it's turbulent. Everyone's upset. You know, you guys do your thing. If you need to scream, it's fine. I'm about to get off and go do my job. I've done this a million times. And I'm gonna land us in Los Angeles. I'll see you on the ground.

Let's go.

Let's freaking go, right? And you're like, why am I calm? Nothing around me changed, but I am calm. And to me, like, you want a leader who sees that your feelings are real and is not infected by them. And the only thing that stops that infection or contagion is a boundary. Wow. And the ability to know I am not my kid. Those are their feelings. And empathy for feelings requires boundaries. Because if you're not having up a boundary, you're not empathizing with your kid. You're actually kind of what we were talking about. You're kind of responding to the way that feeling came into your body. That's not empathy. Right. Boundaries are actually what allow you to say to a kid who's upset about the cock. Grilled cheese. Even though, by the way, you're not making a new one. Or say to the kid, when the TV time is over, I know you really wish you could watch another show. It's so hard to stop. And when they say, so I can, you say, oh, sweetie, no, no, no. My number one job is to keep you safe. Part of keeping you safe is making key decisions. Like bedtime. Bedtime is absolutely now. You can tell me the show you want to watch tomorrow. I'll write it Down. I get it. This isn't what you wanted. Do you see there's like this bouncing. I'm validating. But like I always say, my kids feelings dictate my boundaries. And my boundaries don't dictate my kids feelings. They just kind of. They coexist.

Wow. Why is it so hard for parents to create boundaries with their kids?

So first of all, we don't define what boundaries are when we get it wrong. So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do and they require the other person to do nothing. This is true in adulthood too, all the time. So like with my kid on the couch, this is a good example. And I have a kid like this cause my three kids are totally different. And one of them is 0% people pleasing. And he's just like, he's. I delight in him. Cause he's my third. He's like, he likes to test things out. He's gonna be a leader one day. I get it. You know, But I would look at him and be like, hey, stop jumping. Let's say it had stopped in my house. People jump on the couch. I don't really care. But let's say it was that or it was dangerous. There was a glass table. Sweetie, I need you to stop jumping on the couch. You can jump on the floor. And then he looks at me and he starts jumping and I say, you violated my boundaries. He doesn't respect my boundaries. He doesn't respect me. We always like center ourselves, right? Now if I have a kid who I know is kind of like a pushing the limit kid, not because they're bad, because that's how they're learning about their world.

Their temperament. Yeah. Their personality.

This is not a boundary. It's not a boundary. That's a request. Because the success of what I said is dependent on someone else. When we make a request of someone, which we have to do, we can't always set a boundary. Right. We have to be in a relationship with them. We have to understand they have the right coping abilities. We have to like know that they might meet my request.

They might decline.

They might decline. Probably not because they don't respect me. You know, like, it's just for other reasons. This is a boundary. And again, this is where good inside is anything but soft after. He doesn't listen. Hey, sweetie, it looks like you're having a hard time getting down off the couch. I'm gonna walk over to you and if by the time I get there you're not off, I'm gonna put my hands around You, I'm gonna pick you up and I'll put you on the floor and you can jump over there. That is a boundary because. And I can even test it. Did I tell my kid what I will do? I did. Does it require my kid to do nothing? It does. And just to get real, like, when I do that with my son, he does not say to me, like, thank you for your sturdy leadership. Like, he does not.

You get no praise, no zero.

I get a tantrum. And on some level, I think again, we wish as parents that when we, like, have these amazing interventions, our kids are gonna, like, clap it up.

I love you, mommy. Thank you so much.

They're not. We have to validate ourselves. Hard for people. Definitely hard for women. I know. I'm doing my role.

Why is it hard for women to validate themselves and not want validation from their children?

Well, we do want validation. Why is it hard.

Why is it hard for them to, I mean, validate themselves when they don't ever get validation from their kids?

That's right. So I think women and many people. So it's not just women, but let's just say, especially little girls. We are taught in families, we were taught by society to gaze out before we gaze in. To me, the essence of confidence is like, your ability to gaze in before you gaze out. Like, what is going on? For me, at least, what do I need? Right? But we are taught to gaze out.

And we are taught it's a validation.

For the outside to say, like, I can fill myself up outside. Who am I? How do you look at me? Are you happy with me? Are you telling me I'm doing a good job? Am I making you happy? Even just, like, classic. And like, I always think about people. I used to see teens in my practice. I'd be like, does he like me? I want him to like me. I hope he likes me. And I was like, what do you like about this dude? Like, by the way, he sounds like a douchebag. And they were like, what? And literally, I remember one being like, what do I like? It was.

They didn't know.

A foreign question.

Wow.

Especially now I'm brought up, like, what do I like? I mean, I guess I like the things on Instagram that got the most likes because they told me those were. That's not what you like. That's not what you liked about the picture. The gazing out culture is just massive now, but especially women. And we don't realize that by the time we become parents, no one says, I need my kids approval. Everyone's like, of course I don't. But we get sucked back into the same circuits. So when we set a boundary and our kid protests unconsciously, what happens in our body is, see, I've done it wrong. And then we look at our.

Because I didn't get the result.

We look for our kids approval. We look for right. And we say things like this, don't you think it's time to go to bed? Come on, you've been up so late.

It's like asking for, you know, permission or approval.

It's like the pilot saying, like, don't you think we should make an emergency landing? Like, right. And you're like, oh, my God. Right, That's. And then that's. Of course, that actually leads to kind of, quote, worse behavior in kids. Not because kids are trying to manipulate us at all. Imagine being on the plane and hearing that from your pilot. There'd be worse behavior from passengers because they feel so much more unsafe.

They feel out of control. They want to try to control some situation.

Yes. Wow.

I'm like, I have so many extra questions I want to ask you, but I'm.

We didn't even get to number three.

Okay, let's get to three. Let's get to three.

Because we don't have to ever get there.

So we shouldn't. So we shouldn't. We shouldn't punish.

So, yes, to me, it's.

And is there ever a time to punish?

I mean, I really am not so rigid. I try not to be so rigid. So is there. But to me, it's like, the question of should we punish? To me, brings me back for another key framework. The same team framework. And to me, again, same thing at work. Same thing in romantic relationships. When you're mad at someone or when you're in a conflict or when you feel like someone did something to you, assuming it's a person that you want to be in a relationship with. If it's not, this doesn't apply if they're toxic, but if it's someone you're like, in general, we have a good relationship. There's two ways approaching it. One is, and it's kind of like how we're sitting. It's me against you, and Lewis is the problem. So let's say, like, I arrived to your podcast studio and you were, like, 30 minutes late. I'm, like, so pissed. And I want to tell you, like, how could you be late? I flew in for this podcast, by the way. It didn't happen for everyone. All right? But let's say it did.

You did fly in, but you didn't.

I'm not. But I'm simulating this same thing. Like, so I could either talk to you, like, I'm looking at you, like you are the problem. And you know what that would sound like. That was so rude, you know, and it can't happen again, or we can talk to someone. Like, me and that person are sitting on the same side of the table, and together we are looking at a problem. And then we'd say, hey, what. What went on there? And by the way, I know I'm coming back next week. And I just, I'm sure, together, like, neither of us want this to happen. Did I not understand the time? Let's just figure this out. So when you say, when I hear parents say, when is time to punish, to me, punishment is a me against you framework. I never want to punish someone I like. I just don't like them in that moment. Like, I've never had the thought. I never want to, quote, give someone a consequence. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't boundaries I'm going to set. But when I hear that question, it makes me think about the mindset they're in. And so to me, the answer is that mindset isn't going to be effective for the goal I think you're trying to achieve, which is change. So we only pull interventions from the mindset bucket we're in. And so when I notice parents speaking in a way that I really feel like is in an unhelpful, ineffective mindset bucket, I don't think, what can we do in that bucket? I think we're in the wrong bucket. Let's get you to a different one.

Right?

Right. I'm happy to walk through what we do instead, because it's not just like Kumbaya. So let's say it's like my kid jumping on the couch. Or let's say it's something more egregious.

Let's say they punched someone or they bullied someone or they. Whatever. Something in the slightly different way, let's.

Say they bullied someone. And I was like, I really had evidence that my kid was, like, going up to this kid and they're like, you're a loser and nobody likes you.

I don't know.

Something like that.

Someone filmed it. Who knows?

Yeah, exactly. Sure. I guess this happened. Okay. First I have to be like, how could this even be me and my kid against a problem? And some. I think the best way I do that, if I'm realistic with myself, is just like, we're all capable of all the things. And I'll be like, what would make me say something so mean to someone? Not say it. What? And I might be like, well, maybe I felt really insecure. Maybe I felt slighted by them. Maybe I've developed this role in a group where I feel like I have to be this, like, tough guy. I don't know. But, like, I guess that could happen.

Yeah.

Then if I punish my kid and I'm like, I can't believe you did that. It's not within the values of our family. And, like, here's your punishment. First of all, our kids respond to the version of themselves we reflect back. So I'm mirroring back to my kid, like, you're a bad kid. Wow. And then I'm asking them to have behavior that would come from feeling like a good kid. Like, you have to feel good inside before you act good on the outside.

Come on, come on, come on, now.

Right. You do. So again, just counterproductive.

You have to feel good inside before.

You can act good on the outside. I know act good isn't like, good.

English, but it just, like, no, it is. That's great. So if we feel bad inside, it's really hard to act good on the outside.

That's right. Like, think about your boss always being like, you're late and you're the worst, and you don't do good presentations. You come to work the next being like, I'm gonna crush it. Like, you're. You're paralyzed by. Because by the way they're reflecting back who you are if they're an important person in your life. Right. So what would I say to my kid? Let me just be clear. I'm not saying. I would never say, oh, that probably was a hard day. And there were reasons why you did that.

Yeah. You wouldn't validate the behavior.

I wouldn't end there and say, now, let's go out to dinner. Okay. I wouldn't, like. I wouldn't be like, you know, cool. Here's what I'd probably say. I heard about what happened at school. Let me just start there, because something happened at school today. Never ask a question to any human being that you know the answer to because they know it's not a question. It's a criticism veiled with a question mark, and that is infuriating. So a question is only a question when you don't know the answer. So I would never start that. I mean, I would try not to. I'd say, I heard what Happened at school and I heard this thing, I saw this video. And like, look before you go further. And I would say this, you might push back. You're a good kid. If I can't hold that I have a good kid who did a bad thing, why in heck would my kid be able to do that? Because in order to reflect about bad behavior and understand it and change, you have to hold on to good identity. If those two things are collapsed, there's no good centered self to do the reflecting about the behavior the bad behavior became. I'm a bad person.

You literally can't learn if someone doesn't believe they're a good person. How do you build a good identity?

I think you have to start by noticing all the ways you use your behavior to define who you are. It's what you did. And it's very important data to be like, what's going on for me? What am I seeking? What am I missing? But if you can't separate good identity, which does not justify bad behavior, it just creates a free framework to understand and change bad behavior. You can't change. So I would. I know you're a good kid. And, like, I know, like, that's not, at least in theory, the way you'd want to talk to other kids. Like, I know that, which lets me know also, like, there's a whole situation going on. I don't know if it's anything about that kid. I don't know if you've had a bad week. I don't know if I'm just making this up. I don't know if you've noticed I've been saying some nasty words to your dads in our arguments, and you've maybe, you know, been kind of stressed about that and picked up on that. Right? Like, let's be honest, they pick up on everything. Or, you know, I don't know, but I know there's a reason. And let me be clear, that doesn't mean it's okay. And I don't even think I've decided to because I know you know it's not okay. But we're gonna work together to actually figure this out. Because I know you're capable of being in a tricky situation with a kid and acting in a way you're proud of.

Wow.

Yeah, that's what I would say. And then I would actually do it. And then I would. What we missed out is I would simulate it. Why would a kid say that? Maybe this kid is a new kid and let's say my son was always best Kid in basketball and kind of head of the group. And all of a sudden, this kid.

Came in and he's a star.

There are reasons why we do the things we do. It doesn't make them okay, but there are reasons. So I might say, look, we're gonna do something. And then I would get a little, like, not harsh, but firm. And if my son's like, I don't know, can I just play Fortnite? I don't wanna do this. I'd be like, I'm just gonna say this one time. You literally have to go through this with me before you play Fortnite. Like, that's not a threat. My most important job is helping you in life. And I know this is gonna help. And so even if you roll your eyes, we will do this. That's your decision. It's firm, but it's not mean. It's a place of help. And then I'd say, we're gonna do something. This is gonna sound really weird, sweetie. We're gonna go to the basketball court, and I'm gonna heckle you. I'm say something mean.

Wow. Put them through the experience.

Sure. Isn't that what we do?

Yeah. You need to, like.

Right, right.

And so I'm gonna prepare for these challenges.

That's right. And what I say to him is, I don't expect you in that situation to go like this. We get these most unrealistic hoaxes.

Oh, I'm happy.

Yeah, exactly like. And I want you to say to this kid, no, but we might. I would prompt him. And what I want you to do. I would get up. Is instead of moving toward me when I say that, you're going to turn your body and you're going to walk away. Because if you teach kids when they're mad to give space, they're going to make. They're going to literally have more time to make better decisions.

Yes.

Okay.

They're not going to react as quickly.

And then if we want to get to the heart of why kids say mean things to bullies or something, they're having a hard time regulating something themselves. So I might give my kid a mantra, too, when they're walking away. Maybe. And I always skip mantras that get.

Calm or, yeah, I got this. Or whatever.

Maybe even, like, write that, or I'm valuable even when I'm not the best basketball player.

Wow. Yeah. Just like, that's good.

Get to the core. And we're gonna practice that and make him practice it with me.

I'm. I'm so glad you're saying this, Dr. Becky, because I truly believe life is beautiful and wonderful, and there's so much magic and awe and so much to be grateful for. There's so much beauty in the world. And I think life is an incredible gift. But I also know life is so tough. And there's a lot of tough moments, tough situations, tough seasons that we all go through from childhood, adolescence, to adulthood. And it can feel daunting, it can feel so heavy, so, so much pressure, so much, so much confusion at times, that I truly believe what you just said is the key to living a beautiful life, is putting ourselves in the most uncomfortable, challenging scenarios and situations and preparing for tough moments so that when tough moments come, they're not so tough. I truly believe that. And I think a lot of people, if parents heard what you just said right now and actually did, that they would raise incredible human beings who are prepared for the sadness and the suffering that happens in the world frequently, so that they could see things as a gift and beautiful and not suffer in the sadness. And I think sports gave me that opportunity, that gift. You know, you hear about Navy Seals, like, they. They have a game plan, but they prepare for all the worst scenarios. They don't just say, we're going to prepare for the best. The best outcome's gonna happen. This is exactly what we're gonna plan for, and it's gonna happen. They gotta plan for, what if I lose my weapon? What if I'm trapped? What if this. What if I'm upside down, hanging, and I can't. I'm unconscious? How do I get out of a situation calmly?

Yeah.

Or with enough where I cannot freak out, but I can make a decision and act. And I think we've lost the ability, most people have lost the ability on how to handle challenging situations and play more of a victim, unfortunately, than a victor in their own life. And what you just said right there, I hope parents listen to that and try it with their kid. It's probably the worst thing to hear, like, I'm gonna take you to the basketball court and heckle you. But coaches would create scenarios where they would put loudspeakers on the fields and be like, we're gonna go into a tough road game, and these fans are not gonna be cheering you on. They're gonna be screaming at you, booing at you, throwing stuff on the field, calling you names, trying to get under your skin. They're going to punch you in bad places. They're going to do bad things to you. And you can play victim and say, Ref. And all these people, why are they doing this to me? Or you can rise above it and be prepared for it. And it's doing it in a loving context, I think, is what we need to do. Not, like just putting them down and diminishing kids, but, like, saying, this is what we're going to create. I love you, but I want to create this scenario for you.

Yeah. And I wouldn't like to meet the heckling. Like, it's gonna be humorous. Cause my son's gonna be like. My mom's, like, saying random stuff. She doesn't even know how to, you know, but, you know, someone. And we. Someone said this to me. It's not, you know, And I think it's so powerful. And I talk about a lot of pilot metaphors, and you were talking about the Navy SEALs that in moments of challenge, we don't rise to the occasion, we fall to the level of our training.

Yes.

And this goes back to parents needing resources. So that in those moments of challenge, their level of training has, you know, risen.

Man, I'm so excited about this. You know, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because I want to be a parent one day. Right. I want to have kids. I want to be a parent. I actually feel like I'm at a season of life where I feel like I've done enough healing work for myself, where I don't think I will repeat certain patterns that my parents unconsciously did. Right. And my parents did a lot of good. But there's also things that I'm like, huh? I don't know if that was the right way to build identity in myself and my siblings. Right, Right. They built great identity in other ways. But in other ways, maybe it was more challenging, and I had to learn how to unwind some of those things, integrate and heal. Maybe that inner child that was still sad, suffering, or insecure. And so I'm trying to have as many conversations to prepare myself not to be the perfect parent, because I don't think there is a perfect parent, but to be the best potential parent that I can be, knowing I'm going to be flawed, knowing I'm going to make mistakes, and knowing I'm going to do something probably that is going to hurt my child at some point. But I think what you talked about in the beginning, having the resources and the tools is the first step for parents developing certain skills. And that might mean you have to get your book and read it 10 times until you start to pick up one or two skills that you've never learned before. So I'm just really grateful that you're here. And I'm grateful that four years ago, you decided to put your content online and bring this message to the masses. Because I think parents. I'm not a parent, but I think parents are scared to raise bad kids. And I think parents feel insecure. They don't feel well equipped, especially with social media and, you know, drugs in schools and shootings in schools and just insecure. All the different stuff that's happening in schools that we don't have time to get into today. But I want people to get your book Good Inside, A guide to becoming the parent you want to be. And I think a lot of people in general never felt like they're a good person growing up. I'd speak for myself, but I feel like there's so many people that are craving to feel good. And so, again, I know that you're a teacher for parents to help their kids, but really, you're a teacher for humans to heal and become better leaders in their life. So I want to acknowledge you for the gift you bring, the consistency you bring to add value to people with your content. With your book. I know you have an app that also helps parents learn these skills and tools with a lot of different AI and all these different things you guys are bringing into it. So I want people to follow you on social media. Your Instagram is amazing. I love it. Again, I'm not a parent, but I love watching your content because I feel like it's relevant for becoming a better human being and a better leader in your life. I want people to get your book Good Inside. I think it's required reading for every parent or wannabe parents. So get Good Inside. And how else can we be of support to you Besides going to goodinside.com getting a book and checking out your app?

I mean, to me, conversations like this are just fantastic. I appreciate. I appreciate this. Thank you for helping, you know, ideas get spread because other people also help spread them. So I love, like, the excitement you bring to these ideas. And this has been amazing. So I have no asks.

I appreciate it. I feel like we're gonna have to have you back on at some point because I have so many other questions I wanted to ask you, but this has been really powerful. Even just those three things you talked about. I'm so glad we're talking about this. I believe you. Tell me more. It's really powerful. And that's also something you could do in an intimate relationship, you know, when you don't want to have challenging conversations. If you actually did that with your partner, man, you're going to feel a sense of peace and relief on the other side because you went through the challenging conversation together as opposed to avoiding it or being distracted or whatever it might be. And that's hard when your attachment style is insecure or avoidant. So you've got to learn to heal so you can have a more secure attachment style in all your relationships with intimacy and with your kids. So much to always learn. But again, we'll have to have you back on and talk about more. A couple final questions for you to finish the conversation. This is our rapid fire. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding.

Should I do push ups? Get ready.

This is a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three Truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want to live. Dr. Becky. But it's your last day on earth, many years away. And for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your content with you, all of your Instagram content, whatever content you create in the future. Your books, this interview is gone. So no one has access to anything you've ever put out in the world. But on the last day, you get to leave three things behind. Three things you know to be true that you would leave behind for us to have access to. What would be those three truths or three lessons that you would share?

Okay, I have two. So let's see how we get to the third. One is that we are good inside and our good identity is separate from any bad behavior. Number two is it is never too late, and the single most important relationship strategy in the world is repair. And three is that the only real strategy you have with your kid is connection.

Yeah, we didn't even get into how to repair, which you talk about in your book. So that's another reason for people to get your book and to have you back on, to really dive into my TED Talk.

Because that's what it's about.

Exactly. It's about really how to repair when there's a breakdown or when there's a upset, when you scream at your kid, when you yell at them. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

I think it's a combination of internal accomplishment and external impact. So if I think about greatness, I think a lot about this concept or feeling of being lit up inside. It's how I feel talking to you and talking about these ideas, putting them out there. But I think greatness is when you feel so lit up inside side by something that it drives you so much that you can't contain it. And so it kind of explodes out of you with joy and authenticity and belief. So much that it ends up igniting something that is in someone else and lights them up. And it has this kind of generative movement.

That's beautiful. Dr. Beckett, thanks so much. Appreciate you so much.

It's important that we go back to the body. That's why when we do these talk therapies, they can be good for an extent of the work that needs to be done. Right. But not necessarily for when we're talking about layered trauma, we're talking about these traumas that have been there for generations and that have these imprints.