Psychologist REVEALS How To Develop MASSIVE CONFIDENCE! | Amy Cuddy & Lewis Howes

So saying I'm great when you feel self-doubting in a way is the worst thing you can do.

What's the best thing you can do?

Well, here's one of my favorite tests.

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness. Really?

Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes. I'm curious, what have you learned in the last year and a half about getting back to like just being a confident human being in the world? Not even like performing well, you know, in a sport or business, but just like how do you Just walk around with confidence?

I think, well, I think that in the first couple of months of the pandemic, people were in this phase that psychologists call the emergency phase of a long-term crisis, where, you know, adrenaline's pumping basically, and the threat is concrete and people have shared goals, and they're really working well. It's sort of like in a war, it would be like the first battle. Yeah. And so, People study combat soldiers and find that during battles, they perform really well because they're on the same page. That's the threat. This is what we're doing. Teams work well. Good leaders are great leaders. So that's how people were for the first couple months. They're like, I can do this. And then you deplete what psychologists call surge capacity, which is this sort of network that keeps us going during acute threats. And so we depleted that. And then we all sort of went into this regression phase, or, you know, I mean, at different times. It had a lot to do with the depleted nervous system, but also just the lack of control. We lost control of our lives. I mean, there are external forces that we couldn't control. And that lack of real power, I think, translated into a lack of the feeling of power, of this more internal sense of agency and power. And so people, you know, really started kind of shutting down. So for me, I think as we kind of reemerge, and it's not going to be like, this is the end day, let's go celebrate in the streets. We know it's not gonna, it's this, we're in this constant flux right now, which is also draining. But as, the only way we're gonna reemerge is if we regain that sense of personal power. I mean, people have to feel that they have the ability to make change in their lives, to do things. I know it seems so simple, but We talk a lot about well-being and we're usually talking about happiness and good physical health and lack of stress. That's like high well-being. But I think another component that's really important is this feeling of power. And I don't mean power over others, personal power. Not power over others, not zero-sum power, but just personal power.

How do we get to, what does that even look like? What is personal power and how do we start to build it?

I think, you know, it is the feeling that you are entitled to bring your best self to challenging situations, but that also involves knowing who your best self is. And that's difficult too. But it's like, so, I think often we don't even feel that we sort of deserve to be there. And so we can't fully show up. So personal power is the feeling of sort of being in control of our internal resources, to bring our skills and abilities forward, to be the most sort of generous, open-minded version of ourselves. That's personal power.

But if we don't believe that we are deserving to have power, How do we get there? How do we change the belief to deserve it and then start to have that?

Let me say first, I don't think personal power is not a substitute for skills and knowledge. And I think that sometimes people mishear me when I talk about this topic and think that I'm saying you can just, you know, you can just fake it. You can't. For me, personal power is about revealing the skills that you already have. But it also gives you more bandwidth to build more skills. So it's self-reinforcing as well.

Because there's a lot of people that already have developed skills, but they don't believe that they're deserving or they don't know how to effectively communicate those skills. Interesting.

That's right.

There's so many people that I've heard from that say they've had a dream for 5, 10, 20 years and they have the skills to do it but they don't have the courage to put it out there. So is personal power connected to courage as well?

I think it absolutely is. And sometimes they say sometimes we have to get out of the way of ourselves so that we can be ourselves. Like we get in our own way. But I'm now writing about social bravery, not physical bravery, but social bravery, like standing up for people who are being abused, who are being mistreated, and it is hard, and it's harder in many ways than physical bravery. There's not a lot of glory that comes with it. You're risking being kicked out of the tribe, but think about it in terms of like bystander intervention, like the studies of when do bystanders intervene in an emergency? The best predictor of adults intervening when another adult is being bullied online is sense of power. So, yes, so when people feel powerful, they also feel more courageous. And so I think that's, yes, I think these things are very, very similar. And I think that we are in a collective sense of powerlessness right now. And so I just think it's everywhere. And people seem like agitated at each other, they turn on each other. We are turning on each other. I mean, you see it at the sort of group level, but also at the individual level. And that's what happens when people feel powerless.

So what is the thing that we should be thinking of first? Is it, let's focus on healing the wounds of our past that have made us feel powerless? Let's work on Developing new skills to make us feel more confident and competent. Let's focus on knowledge.

It's hard to say what's first for-- it's idiosyncratic to the person. So certainly for many people, powerlessness comes from trauma. And obviously, there are different parts of the dealing with trauma process, but part of it obviously is understanding what happened and where that came from and that that's not who you were born as, right? And that you are that are allowed to undo this, right? So there is that, and I don't want to neglect that people who are suffering from post-traumatic stress, they have to be able to deal with that.

What happens if we never undo or heal the traumas of the past, whether it be little micro traumas that just continue to build or bigger traumas, abuse, accidents, big breakups, things like loss.

I mean, they just, they build on each other. It's sort of that simple. You know, traumatic events, the idea of triggers is that when something reminds you of that traumatic event, that sort of neural pathway gets activated and all of the feelings that went with that trauma that happened when you were 12 are now being activated when you're 40.

Yeah.

And they're not helpful to you now, right?

They make you more powerless.

Right, they might have helped you to kind of survive when you were 12, but not now. So, you know, I think that we, I'm sensitive about this because people have just endured enormous trauma. And so I don't, some of it you just never get rid of, but not addressing it, I think, only shuts us down more and probably Makes it harder for us to know ourselves and many others. We become afraid of ourselves. And that makes it, I think, harder for us to be a good partner in a relationship, a good member of society, to be somebody who's helping others.

What do you think we can do to reveal ourselves to ourself better so that we can fully accept who we are or what we've been through or had done to us or done to others or whatever it is the shame and guilt we're holding on to. so that we can have more personal power in an authentic way moving forward in those relationships.

Well, I think one, I mean, this is just a simple exercise.

So.

There'S this research on what we call self-affirmation. And I don't mean, like, in, I don't know if you remember the old Stuart Smalley skits on Saturday Night Live. He was like a motivational speaker and he'd say, like, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, doggone it, people like me. It was Daily Affirmations with Stuart Smalley. And by the end, he'd be in a suit, shame spiral. So he'd be trying to talk himself out of it by saying, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great.

That doesn't really work.

If you don't believe it. Exactly. In fact, then you're just lying to yourself and now you trust yourself even less. So saying, I'm great, when you feel self-doubting, in a way, is the worst thing you can do. What's the best thing you can do? Well, here's one of my favorite tasks. The theory of self-affirmation in psychology is not about saying, I'm great. or, you know, I'm gonna win this event, whatever.

If you don't win the best.

It is about affirming to yourself what your values are, who you really are, like what makes you you. So the task is so simple, and there's so much research on this, that doing this simple task helps people perform better in totally unrelated tasks. So the task is, to first list maybe the top three things that you care most about, that really, if I took them away, you would just no longer be yourself, right?

What would those be for you? Couple things.

I have a kind of pathological optimism. I think I am upset when somebody does something that hurts someone else in a way that some people might think is naive. But I'm glad I feel that way. I am so hurt that people behave badly. I'm troubled by it. And I'm glad that I'm troubled by it because I'm gonna keep on trying to change that. I think it's a kind of earnestness that people find it irritating, but I'm totally okay with earnestness. And actually this is one of the things that Amy Purdy and I have in common. She is like this too. She's just sad when people are mean.

She's got such a great heart.

Totally, but she does stuff. She's not just sitting there being sad. Anyway, I would say that that is one of the things that makes me who I am. And somebody said, you,'re naive and you really can't move forward in life if you hold onto this belief that people can be good. I'd be like, well, then I'm no longer who I am. So the task of self-affirmation is you list three of these things, and then you rank them. And you may maybe only ranking them based on how you feel today. But then you take the top one, you write a paragraph about why it matters to you, and then you write another paragraph about a time when you were able to express that value, that belief, and what it felt like to do that. That's it. That's self-affirmation. And so, you know, some people might say, you know, being creative, like art is important to me, or you know, helping people in my community, whatever it is. When people do that, they then are less anxious in stressful situations and they perform better. So for example, college students who do self-affirmation at the beginning of the semester perform better on their midterm exams and, you know, have lower levels of epinephrine than students who don't do that task. So Self-affirmation is basically you shoring yourself up. And what happens is that when you go in to take, like, say, this calculus exam, you know that no matter what happens during that exam, you will still be you when you leave. Like, no one's gonna... How you do on that calculus exam is not gonna change who you are.

Your value...

Exactly. I'm still gonna be this person who wants people to be nice to each other.

So whether you win or get an A or get an F or you lose...

Right.

Either way, you still have that value.

Exactly. Exactly.

You're affirming the value that you love about yourself.

Right.

Not related to the result or the outcome.

Exactly. Exactly. But if you said like, oh, I'm going to say that I love calculus, and then that would never work, right?

Right.

So it's about knowing who you are. You can't be great at everything, sorry. You can't be perfect at everything. And that's okay.

Yeah.

Right, you will still be, you are allowed to be you.

Absolutely. It's interesting, it reminded me of a, I had Kobe Bryant on the show and he mentioned that earlier in his kind of basketball years when he was a teenager, he, one summer he was like playing in a basketball camp and he didn't score one point. And he was like 13 or 14, I can't remember exactly. And then four years later, he's in the NBA, right? So he was like 12 or 13, he didn't score one point, and his dad before he went to this kind of basketball camp said, you know, whether you do well or not, I'm gonna love you. Like your results are not determined based on like my love for you. So like, I want you to do well, but just have fun and get better. Just improve every day and work hard and your your value is not based on the results. And he scored zero, but he felt like, okay, I just want to go back and keep playing because I love the game and I want to improve.

That's interesting.

Not because I'm looking for approval from my father.

Wow.

And I think it's as friends, partners, parents, if we can continue to instill that value of the person, not their results, then I think that it's going to help people want to get better results. So without feeling like they're never good enough.

Right. What do you think? What would you list?

So the thing of my values or the thing that I want to get rid of or what do you- no, sorry.

No, your values. Like if you were doing self-affirmation, I mean, what would you feel? Like what's the thing that, you know, makes you who you are?

I think that I really care about people, like having a big heart. I really care about people. I want people to feel good about themselves. I want people to have the confidence and the courage to go after what they were uniquely built and designed for. And having, you know, the curiosity to explore what it could be. Yeah. For me, it's, you know, we were talking about this beforehand that it's, I wasn't the biggest, fastest, strongest, but I had dreams and I pursued them to as far as I could in sports.

Yeah.

And I have no regrets where there's a lot of guys that I knew that I played with were way more talented than me. that didn't have the courage. And I felt like, man, but he kind of wasted this potential. Just like to see what could have happened. Whether you failed or not or succeeded, it doesn't matter for me. But it's what was I able to create in that process? And I want the world to be able to do that for whatever it is for them. Whatever that dream is for them, it can be, it doesn't have to be some grandiose dream of being some top athlete, but whatever that is, you're unique in this world. Can you go and have the courage to figure out what that is? It's scary.

Yeah.

So I care deeply about people overcoming those challenges.

I love that. But imagine how it would feel if somebody was like, I'm taking that characteristic away from you. Like you no longer have that.

I would just be like, I don't know. Egotistical.

But you know that you would be a shell.

Yeah, it'd be tough.

And so you know that. So the great thing about self-affirmation is it's kind of the flip side. I'm telling you that that's never going to be taken away from you. You can always be that person. You will always have that value. And so that helps you then to be more present and less anxious and to perform better in other situations.

Why do you think people are so afraid of the pressure of not performing well or failing or getting made fun of or embarrassed or laughed at or being said, I told you so, you shouldn't do this, you're not good.

There's a lot of, like you kind of answered the question in the question because they are afraid of being told that they're afraid of not doing well because they're afraid of being ashamed, like of being ridiculed, of being, that I think, like it's mostly about how others perceive them, like the fear of being rejected, the fear of being kicked out of the tribe, which is a terrible feeling, right? Like, people are more afraid of that than they are of, you know, physical injury. I know. And it's, you know, it's sort of related to what we were talking about before the camera started rolling, which is that, you know, this idea of bumbleRs and pointers, which a psychologist named Dan Gilbert just casually talked about once on Twitter. He said there are two kinds of people, bumbleRs and pointers. The bumbleRs are the ones just trying. Even if they don't do it well, they're trying. And the pointers are the ones making fun of the people who are trying. And he said, I would rather be a bumbler. I would definitely rather be a bumbler than a pointer. But people are afraid of the pointers, right?

Yeah, the critics that aren't actually bumbling.

Exactly.

They're not only fumbling around in the world.

They're bumbling because they're not doing anything.

Except for critiquing.

Exactly. And I think it doesn't divide quite as easily.

Right, right, right.

But, you know, But why are we.

So afraid of pointers? People pointing at us when it's like, why in general are people so afraid of like, it's two people or one person that's holding them back from a dream they've had for years?

It's, I mean, you know, I can make an evolutionary argument that we're attuned to that kind of rejection because it would indicate that you're at risk of being kicked out of the tribe. And if you're kicked out of the tribe, then you can't support yourself. Right, exactly.

But that's not true in this world, right?

No, right. So we still have, like, you know, some sort of primitive responses that are no longer adaptive. And, you know, we're not, like, for example, and I'm sort of moving away from the shame a bit to fear, you know, when we go into that fight, flee, or faint mode, that is adaptive if you're being chased by a tiger. But usually we're not being chased by a tiger.

Getting pointed at by someone on the internet is not that scary.

Exactly.

I mean, psychologically it is.

Well, it is.

Physically it's not.

At the same time, I don't want to dismiss the emotional damage of actual abuse and bullying. Yes.

But criticism.

Criticism is not actually deadly. But our nervous systems feel like it's deadly.

Is there a psychological strategy that you've seen or research that's shown how to actually practically overcome this?

I mean, there are little, I'm very much about the micro, like what are the little things that you can do? I mean, I'm not a clinical psychologist, I'm a social psychologist, so I can't speak to therapy. But I do think it's about the way we carry ourselves, realizing that how we carry ourselves, physically how we move, how do we interact with people, how do we carry ourselves? that shapes who we are.

Physical body language.

Physical body language and even just how we choose to interact with, say, someone who's serving us a drink at a restaurant. Do we choose to look them in the eye and say thank you and recognize them as human, or do we not have the time for that? Carrying ourselves in a way that is sort of both kind of powerful and also, you know, with grace, I think, makes us more powerful.

Yes.

And makes us kinder people.

Yeah.

Sorry, I got onto a different sort of... Sure.

You're talking about the micro instances on how to overcome this if we're feeling like we've got something we want to put out in the world, but we're afraid of one or two pointers, critics that aren't gonna physically beat us up or kick us out of their lives, but how do we, what's a way.

To get them to, like, let's take an actual, you know, I often ask people, what is your biggest challenge? Like, what is the situation that you approach with dread and that you execute with anxiety and that you leave with a sense of regret?

Oh, wow.

And so if you look at all, so dread, that is you projecting yourself into a future that's not gone well. So you're borrowing trouble, basically. Oh, wow. You know, the anxiety in the moment is you thinking more about what the other person thinks of you than what they're actually just thinking. You're worried about what you said a minute ago or what's going to happen afterwards. You're not able to be in the present. And then regret is, or what we call post-event processing. You're going over it, wanting to do over, going, I didn't show, I wasn't seeing, they didn't see who I am. You know that feeling like, oh, they didn't see who I am. And you want to go back in and like in a rom-com you get to have a do-over.

Right, right. In life sometimes you don't.

So that sense of regret becomes like a piece of baggage that you carry into the next similar situation. And then you're worried because you don't.

Want to do the same thing, so you put more pressure on yourself.

What if we could approach with the sense of, you know, composure and execute it with a kind of calm and grounded confidence.

Yes.

And leave feeling satisfied. Even if we don't get the outcome that we want, we know that we did everything we could to show up. They saw who I was and it wasn't the right fit or whatever. Right. And I can accept that outcome. So you can both accept the outcome and not have that extra piece of baggage.

I was watching a TikTok recently about A mom like asking her daughter to go and I can't remember, do something by herself in a store. And this was like an 18 or 20 year old. I think she was going to like rent a car or buy a car or something like that. But she was an older, you know, teen or early 20s. And she was franticing. She was like, I cannot go in there alone. Will you come in there and do this for me? Will you come help me? I can't do this alone. The sense of like, social interactions online, but the inability to actually be in front of someone and be rejected or looked at funny or learning how to navigate in-person social interactions. Do you feel like people are going to be struggling with overcoming these fears more because of the internet and social media? Or how can they continue to navigate that fear of the tribe in person, not just online?

I don't even know where to begin with the, it's because there are also, first of all, if I make any statement about where I stand on that, there will be a million people telling me I'm absolutely wrong. Got it. And the truth is complicated, right? And in some ways social media, so my son's on TikTok, and I can't believe the, the courage he has now to just put a video out there. And, you know, sometimes it goes and sometimes it doesn't. And he's fine if it doesn't go, if it doesn't move. So I think that that's actually been really good for him. He doesn't feel rejected. He just feels like, well, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I'm never gonna know if I don't put myself out there. So I think in some ways young people have become more courageous. at trying things. I mean, you know, yes, I would like them to spend less time on it. And I like that he's doing music. You know, he's like putting out my kid's doing quality content.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

No, but I think that in some ways it's actually given young people an opportunity to be brave.

To express themselves.

Exactly. And to sort of to be rejected and see that they've survived. Right?

Yes.

But rejection, the rejection that I'm talking about is a video A TikTok video not going viral, it's not that it's net, which is not the same as nasty comments, like being rejected and trolled. That's a different kind of rejection, right? And that's not the same.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. What about the just the anxiety of putting yourself out there, whether it be going into a store and just interacting with people, whether it be going, giving a speech online, putting up, you know, something human interaction in person and feeling embarrassed or rejected or made fun of. How do we learn to overcome that anxiety or stress about it? Is it as simple as just you gotta practice it and just know that you're alive?

I hate to say something so simple, but yes, like I am, I am just not afraid to embarrass myself.

That's good.

And I have to sometimes, like, Hold on to that, like because I think it's, I think it was really important for my son to see that. Like to me modeling that was really important.

Not being embarrassed.

Yeah, being like, you know, making mistakes, being goofy, like doing something goofy in the grocery store.

And being okay with it.

Yeah, another one is, it's being okay with like chatting with a stranger. And maybe they don't want to chat and that's fine, then you move on. But like why not try? I think doing those things, first of all, I think it's great to model that for kids. But I also think it's good to do it just to see that, oh, you've survived. You're fine. No one's going to hurt you. Exactly, no one even cares.

I'm not remembering this for the rest of my life.

You might have made somebody smile.

Right. Right.

So...

I'm all about social, like creating social challenges for yourself. Like if you're terrified.

I think that's a good one. I mean like chat with someone on the train, and I know it's hard right now.

Right, right. But do something consistently.

Yeah, or like ask someone, ask, you know, if you're, I don't know why grocery stores seem like places where lots of silly things can happen. You know, if someone's like checking, out checking you. What do you, the, checking you out? Checking you out. That sounds funny. Checking you out.

You know, checking out your groceries.

And they are looking down and they seem, you know, grumpy. Instead of deciding they're not friendly, consider the possibility that they're having a bad day and literally like pause and say, how are you? You know, or like try to connect with them. without being intrusive, make eye contact with them, thank them, make eye contact. Maybe they'll just be annoyed and not make eye contact back, but I feel like that kind of thing is really important to try. And those are things that create sort of social benefits for others as well.

Absolutely. This is something you've been studying for, I guess, decades now, which is just mastering confidence, body language, overcoming these challenges, what's been the biggest challenge for you in the last 10 years that you've had to overcome? Knowing the research and practicing these things and talking about these things yourself, what's been the challenge for you? Whether career or personal or...

I think the challenge for me has been adjusting to, you know, being more well known than the average academic, right?

Right, right, right.

And actually, you know, leaving academia. You know, I still teach, but I'm not, you know, I'm not full-time.

No.

You know, I teach in executive education at Harvard, but I'm not a professor. You know, I'm a lecturer when I lecture. Leaving was hard. Really? So, I mean, it was a big leap to leave that security, but it wasn't, it just was not the right world for me. But I think the biggest challenge really has been dealing with becoming higher, sort of having, becoming higher profile and the kind of backlash that I endured as a result of that. Criticism. Which is not, yes. And well, yeah, I mean, criticism's fine, but bullying is not, you know? And I know that this is common. Like this happens to, in fact, it happens to a lot of junior professors who give TED Talks. Really?

Yeah.

It's funny, somebody just wrote to me yesterday, she has a popular TED Talk. And she, you know, she said that at her university, people started calling her Ted Girl and like sort of talking down to her.

Even though it was a popular, well-respected TED Talk.

Because it was popular, right? Like it's like if it had been, if it had not really hit the radar, it would have been okay.

Really, but because she had some success.

Yeah, so people had to sort of diminish her in a way, you know, and I experienced a lot of the same stuff. So, what became hard for me was talking to colleagues, right? Like standing up for myself. And you, you know, the truth is we need to stand up for each other, right? When people are in an acute bullying situation, they really can't stand up for themselves. But I'm still figuring out how to engage with other people in academia who weren't necessarily bullies, but might have been bystanders who didn't do anything. But to be able to say, I still deserve to be having this conversation, I deserve to have the beliefs that I have, I deserve to defend this massive area of research on body-mind feedback, of which I contribute a tiny bit to, just because these people don't like it doesn't mean I can't. say, well, here's why I do believe it. That's really hard for me. That is the thing that I would approach with the most dread, I think.

Were you able to implement and integrate some of your own practices and teachings when those things happened to you? Whether it be criticism or bullying or any of the stuff you were facing, were you able to actually integrate the body language for yourself?

I mean, for me, the thing that works the best is, I mean, certainly I do, like I walk expansively, like long strides before this kind of stressful thing. I won't sit down with my hands in my lap. Like even putting your hands behind your chair, this is a bit of a thing.

It kind of opens you up a little bit.

But it forces you to open up just doing that. But the thing that works the best for me is breathing. and I know there is so much on breath work now and I don't wanna, you know, I'm not an expert, but the relaxation response that's triggered by certain breathing patterns is incredibly effective for me. And so basically it sends your nervous system into this rest and digest state, which is the opposite of fight, flee, or faint. And so the one that I like best is called 4-7-8 breathing. and we can do it right now. Yes, do it. So basically for four counts you inhale, for seven you hold your breath, and for eight you exhale. So I'm gonna count and you do it.

Okay, four inhale.

Seven, hold it, and eight exhale. Okay, all right. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Six, seven, eight.

And you repeat that a few times?

Three times. Like one time you feel it. It will put me to sleep at night. If I'm relaxed, it makes me sleepy. But if I'm anxious, it calms me down. So that just, I mean, there's just so much research on the relaxation response and breathing. But what I think is interesting about it is that that kind of breathing is expansive. What I talk about, you know, like expansive posture, that's expansive. You're breathing deeply and slowly. You're taking up more temporal space. You're expanding your, you know, like your physical body more. And when we expand, we tend to feel more confident, more powerful, more calm.

Should we always, not always, should we be frequently be in an expansive postural state when we're, you know, kind of nine to five-ish out in the world doing our activities.

What we should be in is is having good neutral posture. So it's before stressful events, you know, that's when I say find a private space. I think I said in the TED Talk, find a bathroom stall, which I honestly think just like I thought of at the moment, but I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who are like, I was in a bathroom, you know, or like people who see somebody in a bathroom with their arms up in the air, like, are you power posing in there?

I think in Ted Lasso, it was saying she goes to the bathroom and does that, right?

I know, I loved it so much. It's okay. You can't imagine, like I love that show and I had no idea. You had no idea it was coming.

I was like sobbing. I was like, oh my god. What's so cool that you, Brene Brown and Esa Parrell, who I've had both.

Of them on as well, were all featured in there, and I'm just like, that's amazing. I know, and I think all of us were absolutely thrilled. Like this is cool. I mean to have that, and I know I was telling Brene this, but the first time I saw that show, at the end of the first episode, I turned to my husband and I said, I love Ted Lasso. And he goes, that's because you are Ted Lasso. And I was like, well, I guess I had good self-esteem then, but I am Ted Lasso. And so are you.

Yes, exactly.

It's funny because Brene says that she's Roy Kent.

Yeah, I guess she's Roy Kent. You can see a little bit.

But anyway, yeah, so before these stressful situations, the ones that you approach with dread, that's when you find some space and really make yourself big.

Expansive.

Like whatever feels comfortable to you, expand. You know, in front of other people it comes across as really aggressive and domineering and off-putting. But if you're in, you know, the privacy of your own bathroom stall or office or whatever, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to worry about cultural norms or putting people off. In our everyday lives, we spend so much time like this, you know, with our phones. And that is really bad. First, it's bad for us, just our posture, and it's creating this sort of fixed thoracic stoop. Physiotherapists used to only see in elderly people, and now they're seeing it in 15-year-old boys from gaming, things like that. And that's something, like you can't just be like, oh, I'm gonna sit up straight. You have to work that out.

You've got years working it out. You've got to align your body.

Totally. But so it's not only hurting our posture, but I believe that it is affecting our mood. And so even just set up your workspace so that you can be more expansive. But we neglect our body language when we're alone because It's language. And if we're alone, we're not talking to anyone.

We're talking to ourselves.

But we're talking to ourselves, right? So it's really important, I think, for us to be minding our posture. Also, there have been a couple of meta analyses recently, which basically are just studies that look at all of the studies on a topic and come up with a sort of an average effect size. Like they say, yes, this is a real effect. and this is how big the effect is, right? So studies that have looked at meta-analyses of power opposing studies show really clearly that it affects the way we feel. Like, so expanding our body.

By shrinking our body.

Shrinking versus expanding.

Affects the way, whether in a positive or.

More expansive, more confident and more powerful psychologically, shrinking less powerful, less confident. But what's interesting is that there are two meta-analyses. One of them shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between neutral and expansive. The other one shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between contractive and neutral. So I'm not, we still, in short, there's evidence that both of those things matter. But certainly neutral is better than contractive.

Shrinking, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And it's probably, even if you were doing a meditative breathing technique, if you're closing your body off and breathing, you're still probably limiting yourself. So you can be breathing and trying to relax the nervous system, but you're closing your body off, it's hard to feel more alive and confident and calm, I'm assuming. Absolutely.

It's funny, this woman wrote to me, she said, I teach people public speaking and I had this student who was really stressed out, this man, So I got into power pose for a minute, and he said it made him feel worse. Really? And she said, but then I watched that we watched the video. She said, I videotaped him. And we watched the video, and I was like, Were you breathing? He said, no, I didn't breathe. I held my breath the whole time.

Oh my gosh.

He's like, well, that's not gonna work. Exactly. So he had been like completely still in this power pose and she, I mean she was laughing about it, but yeah, you have to.

How long should we be in an expansive postural states for?

You know, it's funny, I really emphasized two minutes in the TED Talk because that's what we had done in those first studies. I think actually less is more. Like we've gone out to five minutes. I think that it just gets awkward. It's that silly, you feel weird, but also like your body, you get sort of stiff. So, I, you know, I just think it's, I don't even think you have to be still. I think you can be moving in an expansive way.

--Yeah.

--You know, I think there's, it's the whole, I sometimes wish that I hadn't called this power posing because it was so, it's such a sticky idea, right? It's got alliteration. It's like, --Great branding. --Exactly. But at the same same time, people got fixed on standing like Wonder Woman or in the victory pose. And it's not it's being expansive is more expansive than this.

--Yes.

--You know it's in whatever way works for you.

--Yeah. The tighter you are, the probably less likely you'll perform relaxed. And football training before games and in practices, they would always tell us to be loose. You know to move our body to be flexible, to be expansive, but in a loose state of mind and a loose body, not like rigid or you can't catch the ball if you're like too tight. So it's how can you be expansive, confident and relaxed at the same time? Yeah. And practicing that in life with the power poses, I think is great. Yeah. And Ted Lasso, she did a great. She was like, right?

She's like a monster pose or something.

It's amazing.

Yeah. She read this facial expression that I.

She's a great actor as well.

I wonder if that was like so if they were like just do a power pose and she made it out.

She probably did.

I just feel like she was great.

She was great. When was there ever a time where you didn't implement this strategy and you realized oh I had I could I should have done I could have done better had I done this, but I just thought I had it figured out.

Only, you know, so I really love public speaking and it doesn't It's like my favorite professional thing to do. It doesn't make me nervous.

That's good.

So, for me, I think a lot of people assume that speaking is the thing that makes everyone nervous. So for me, it's not that.

What makes you nervous?

You know, interpersonal conflict, like one-on-one, or I get nervous in smaller groups. I don't-- Isn't it interesting, like five.

Or ten people, I feel so-- I'm.

Talking to three people. I find much more stressful than talking to 3,000 people. So I don't like to sit in a room for a long time before I'm gonna get up and talk to people. I don't wanna sit there in a cold room, these rooms are often cold, and you're going like this, and you're totally sort of stiff, and then you get up and you're like, oh. So I had that experience enough times to learn I need to be moving around. I need to be warm, not cold, and come in right before I get up to present or to discuss. So yes, I've had the experience of being still and hunched up for too long.

So we've got the affirmations we've talked about, self-affirmation, affirming who you are, not just making up lies about yourself. We've got What's the actual technical term now, not power posing?

It's postural feedback.

Postural feedback.

And I think the idea is just keep in mind your posture is set, there is feedback to your nervous system telling you either you're, you know, I'm safe or I'm not safe. It's kind of that simple. You're safe or you're not safe.

It's interesting, I learned a technique 11, 12 years ago, about 2009 when I got into the business world world and I started going to events and conferences and networking events. I remember feeling like I'm a nobody. I'm this young kid who was just playing football. I still didn't have a college degree. I was 24 and going into a room with all these professionals and executives. I was like, why would anyone talk to me? I kind of had this feeling early on. And I learned from someone, he said, every time you walk into a door, just act like you're trying to connect the top of your head to the door. and just walk in and stand, like every time you see a door at any time in your life, just practice. You're walking, you're entering a room just with your, you don't have to put your chest all the way out like crazy. Exactly. Shoulders back, just a little bit, your head just a little bit taller, like you're trying to touch the top. Absolutely. And he said, walk in with a smile. And every time I do that, I practice it just all the time now, it's like it just makes you feel a little bit better, more courageous to actually say hi to someone. A smile, a little taller, your shoulders back just a little bit. It really helps with that. So it's something that I learned early on that helped me kind of just gain courage.

Well, in ballet, it's very much like imagining the story.

Like a story, right?

But another technique that I think works really well for me that I learned in ballet is you're looking at the people in the balcony. And that opens you up, right? And it also makes you more aware of this interaction and there's also kind of magic and chemistry in the interaction, right? You're not alone.

And.

That'S a whole other, not a whole other thing, but it's, you know, that ability to be present with people is like, it feeds on itself, right? Like you become, the energy level picks up more and more, the more you can build that intimacy with an audience. And so by opening up to them, you're much more likely to create that intimacy.

Yeah. And so, okay, so we've got the self-affirmation to self. We've got the postural feedback.

If we can start implementing these strategies. Yep, I got another one. Give me another one. All right. I love this one. So this was research done by a woman named Allison Wood Brooks who's at Harvard Business School. She's a professor. And she was like a wedding singer before she went to grad school. Okay. Just didn't get nervous. And she was really interested in stage fright. Like she was like, why? I know it's kind of funny. She's like, this isn't hard for me. Why is it hard for you? No, but she's very confident. But she was really interested in stage fright.

And she realized-- and learning why people have stage fright. Right.

She's a very positive person. And I think that what happened, and I don't want to tell her story for her, but my understanding is basically that she realized that for the nerves, so basically emotions have two dimensions, arousal level, like it's a high arousal or a low arousal, and positive-negative. There's more than that. But think of it, those are the two dimensions and emotions can be clustered around those. So she realized that she was having the same high arousal feeling in her body before she sang. But for her, she interpreted it as excitement, not anxiety. And so she realized that it's not that she really was having a totally different experience. It's just that she was like, I must be excited to do this.

It's the interpretation.

Exactly. So she did experiments. She had people do singing contests using like what was the video game Rock Rockstar?

Might have been Rockstar, yeah.

She had them do debate competitions. I think they did a math test, maybe different studies, but she assigned them to say to themselves before they did the thing, I am anxious or I am excited. And the people who said, I am excited, just said, I am excited to myself. They did much better. So she calls that reinterpreting anxiety as excitement. So reframe it. So before you go on, her name is Allison Wood Brooks, hibernated.

Okay.

And yeah, so anxiety is reframe anxiety as excitement. And this is definitely one of my favorites. And I think that that helps a lot of people. The other one is kind of related a bit is that a lot of times when we go into these stressful interpersonal situations where we know we're being evaluated, and where the stakes feel high, so like a job interview or giving a talk or speaking in class or teaching, whatever. The dread leads us also to interpret other people, to see them as potential predators, as people who don't want us to do well. And the thing is, mostly in life, people actually want other people to do well. Yes, there's Schadenfreude. We sometimes like to see somebody fail, right? But for the most part, people are there because they want to learn something. They want you to do well. And so it's not comfortable to watch people not doing well. And so when I started teaching at Harvard, I had been, you know, I taught at Kellogg for a couple years, and that's an intense place. It's a great school. But there's something about Harvard Business School that has this reputation, you know, that the. And so I got there and I was like, I don't know, 32 or something. And. No, I was. Anyway, I was, like, mid-30s yeah, not that much older than the students.

Right. Right. You could look like you could be a student.

You know, I'm not big and, you know, blonde, I'm a girl, all that stuff. So people were like, you cannot show. weakness. Really? Like you cannot a drop of blood in the water, the sharks will come in for the kill. That's what I was told, right? And so I prepared like crazy for that first class. For these 18-year-olds, you mean? Well, no, no, they're like 20. Grad students. So they're like 28.

Okay, got you.

They're pretty smart.

They're pretty accomplished.

They've already accomplished stuff in their life. Yeah, so I really prepared like crazy. But I realized that I was approaching it with this, like, as a warrior. And like, first of all, that's not who I am.

Right.

And second.

The roller skating warrior.

Exactly. The roller skating deadhead warrior. Yeah, exactly. I like people, you know? So I'm like, why would I assume that they are looking for me to fail? That they're like sniffing blood. That doesn't make sense. They paid a lot of money to go here. They worked like crazy to get in here. they want to have a good experience, not a bad experience. So I decided to go in with blind trust, like blindly trusting them and not try to sort of fake this, you know, badass, you know, personality that isn't who I am. Instead, to go in and be who I am, assume they want me to do well. And so I went in. the first day and I said to them, Here's what I've done. Here's what I love doing. You know, I've not done this before. And I'm a little nervous about this, but I think that we are all in this together and I think we want to have a good experience. So just kind of letting you know where I am. And I feel, I'm in touch with so many of the students from that year, that first year.

I think-- Was this pre-Ted Talk?

Yeah, it was like a year or two before. A couple, three years maybe before my TED Talk. And that really taught me that if I trust them, they give it back to me. You build trust. So I go in with blind trust. I mean, if you think about in life, you can either in these situations trust or not trust. Which mistake would you rather make? Would you rather trust and be wrong or not trust and be right? and be wrong. Like, I'd rather trust and be wrong. Usually it's not that dangerous. I mean, there are some situations where you probably shouldn't trust, but I'm talking about just like average situations. Why not just trust and occasionally you'd be wrong and somebody actually is a.

Right. Right. They humiliate you or they are whatever.

But you move on. Totally, but if you go in and you don't trust anybody, nothing good comes of that. If they're trustworthy, you're not going to build a relationship with them. If they're untrustworthy, you're not gonna build a relationship with them anyway. I would just rather make that the error of over trusting than under trusting.

Wow, that's cool. What did you learn from that first year of teaching at the Crazy Shark?

First of all, they're not. They're people just like everybody else. They've got insecurities too. And 75 to 85% of HBS students at some time feel imposter syndrome. They're insecure as well. They're no more insecure, but they've got the same stuff that they're dealing with. And, you know, there are a lot of really wonderful people in there. And the more you give them trust and get it back, the more they're building trust with each other. So, I just learned to go into every audience and assume that they want me to do well.

That's good.

And that, of all of the things, it's funny because my My son, you know, he gets performance anxiety, like probably every musician. And it's funny because people are always like, Candy, this is your thing. I mean, to me, they're like, how does your son have any performance? Well, he's human, but also I'm his mom, right? So it's not easy to learn this stuff from your mom. Of course. But that's the one that works the best for him. I said, why would you go in to a performance situation, a musical performance situation, and assume they want you to fail. They don't want you to fail. They want to see you do well.

They want to be there.

They really want to be there, right? Exactly. So, he says that's the one that helps him the most.

And just having that thought in your mind before you enter that they want the best for me. They want to have a good time.

Yeah.

Something I was nervous for a long time with public speaking, and I did a social challenge for myself where every week I went to Toastmasters. And the first week I wrote out word for word my five-minute speech, which was called an icebreaker. Breaker. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Toastmasters or if you've been before. And I remember saying to myself, I prepared for two weeks for a five-minute speech. It was so terrified. Again, I was 24, going into a room of really great speakers who were all much older than me, executives, professional speakers. And I chose that one. I went to five different Toastmasters clubs in Columbus, Ohio. Iowa, and I chose that one because it was the scariest for me. Ah, that's... And I was like, I don't wanna go to the easy place. I wanna go to a place that's gonna really challenge me. And it terrified me. I remember I wrote it out word for word, and I practiced it for a couple weeks, and I could not look up the first time. I had to stay here, like looking here word for word, and dripping sweat, just humiliated and embarrassed. But luckily, they're there to give you positive feedback. It's not a bad crowd. Right, they are. That's true. It's not like I'm putting myself myself in front of, you know, critics that are really going to make me feel bad. They're there to say, you know, here's what you did well, here's what you can do better next time. But I did that for a year until I felt like I had the confidence and I could go out and get paid to do it. And for years, I would go speak in front of big audiences and get paid well, but I still had a little bit of nerves. And I was like, why have I not gotten rid of this? And I called one of my coaches. This was probably like five years ago. I called one of my coaches and I said, I don't know why I'm still nervous before these events. I've been doing this for so long, I shouldn't be, now I'm beating myself up. I shouldn't be nervous.

Right.

And he said, the reason you're nervous is because you're still worried about what people think about you. You're still thinking of you, like making sure you remember that joke or making sure you're funny here or you don't mess up.

Right. What if I forget this thing?

You're thinking about- that's the distraction, right? And he was like, if you just put your attention on how can I be of service knowing I'm not going to be perfect. How can I help and add value and entertain or educate, knowing I'm going to forget a joke or knowing that the pause isn't going to be there or knowing that I'm going to stutter, just let it go and just be of service. And when I came from that place, I was like, I'm just going to serve and I know I'm not going to be perfect.

I love that.

And that has helped me let go of those nerves. I still feel like, you know, the excitement feeling Yeah. But it's more like, okay, every time I feel like I'm nervous or anxious, this is all about service. And my friend Rory Vaden says it's hard to be nervous when your heart's on service.

That's so true.

And so I just give your heart to the audience.

That's the sort of, I mean, it's very related to this trust piece, right? Like they want to get something out of this. That made me think of two things. One was that, I once asked the person at HBS who I thought was like the best teacher, I said to her, when did you realize that you, like that you were, it's clear that she knows she's really good at this. When did you realize that? And she said, I went from being a good teacher to a great teacher the moment that I stopped thinking about what they were thinking of me and started just thinking about what they were thinking. Ooh! Right, so I cared about what they, what, what, like I started watching their faces, were they confused about something that I said? Like, so it wasn't about me, it was about the content.

Yes.

And helping them to learn. Yeah. And I thought that was really good. You know, stop thinking about what they're thinking of you and start thinking about what they're thinking.

Why is that so hard for us to do in general?

Well, I mean, it's back to that social rejection piece. That's true. Like it's because we're, environmentally like, sorry, evolutionarily attuned to looking for signals that were gonna get kicked out. Right. And I don't know why we're still like that, you know? And I don't know of a culture where people aren't like that.

You know?

It's not like I can think of a society where people aren't, don't have that happen. Yeah.

So that was one thing you said you were gonna say. Do you remember the second thing? No. That was a great example.

Oh, no, I did remember, actually. It's that people love, okay, so the best performances are performances that have never happened before and will never happen again. So in front of a live audience, like when you go see a show, part of why I Love the Dead, the Grateful Dead, the Dead and Company, is because they have never played the same show twice. Like every single show, thousands of shows, is completely different. They've never played the same Set list for the entire set list twice. They always change it.

Never.

Yes. And --It might be one song different.

And replaced, but that's --No, no it's really mixed up.

Like it's really changed. And there are all these jams in between. So, I mean, there are just no two shows that are even close to being identical. That's cool. And that's part of what people love about it. They don't, yes, sometimes they forget the lyrics. But that's because they've got like you know 500 songs in their catalog. right? So, but nobody cares. In fact, like last year, I mean, sorry, last night at Chula Vista, Bob Weir forgot the lyrics. It just like for a minute. And people loved it. The crowd like roared. They love that.

They're cheering him on to remember it again.

--Yeah, and it's just like you're real. You're here with us. You are being here with us. So, I always say give people an experience that has never happened before and that will never happen again. That doesn't mean you have to rewrite a completely new speech, but know that audience, know who they are. And don't be over scripted. You know, people want it to be a bit raw. And you know they remember the performance where somebody, you know, dropped their guitar pick and had to pick it and didn't have another one. Or that's it's like I got to see that thing.

--Yeah, the mic went out and you had to scream.

--Exactly. Exactly. That's great. So I think that making mistakes actually is not only not bad, but it makes you more human and relatable.

More interesting.

More interesting, right? And more memorable. For sure. More memorable.

Identity came to my mind just now, and I'm curious about your research or just your personal findings on shaping our own identity with ourselves. Shaping our identity, having an identity, and how that helps how that either helps us or hurts us with our confidence and our personal power.

Well, I mean, there's so many different kinds of identities that we can have. I think that when we get, I.

Mean, there's, Is it important to have a specific type of identity? Is it important to have a wide range of identities, the things that we're into?

Tell me what kind of identity you're talking about.

An identity is, you know, I'm a man from Ohio. I grew up in Ohio. I love football. I love park. All these different things that are likes interests and we identify as.

Well, I think that the self-affirmation stuff is all about values. And so your identity is your values. And that, I think, is great. Being true to your values is great. The values I'm talking about are not values that need to be flexible. They can be wide, right? But I think that when we get really identified with a certain group or interest, it can get dangerous. I mean, I think first we stop thinking for ourselves and we start becoming much more concerned about remaining part of the group than about our values, our personal values. Exactly. And so we compromise ourselves to be in the group. And I think that can be really dangerous. We're losing our sense of agency for sure, but also might be doing things that are not good, like not healthy for us or for other people. So that I think can be, I think we need to stay in check around identity in that way. Just because it's what most people in the group are doing doesn't mean it's what I need to be doing.

What is something we can do, I guess, to reflect on or give ourselves feedback on, on a yearly or monthly or daily basis that supports that.

I think, and this is not empirical, this is kind of off the cuff, but I've been thinking about this a little bit lately. Thinking about what are my identity groups that I chose? What are my chosen identity groups? And are there things that have happened in those identity groups that I don't agree with, but I didn't do anything to correct it or I kind of let it slide. Like how can I keep myself honest about these identity groups?

--Right. --'Cause you may like the Grateful Dead, but there may be things that happen at the concerts that you don't acknowledge or you don't like.

--Yes, exactly.

--You don't want to be, well, I'm never gonna watch her the Grateful Dead again because this happened.

That's right.

But how can I make sure, yeah, I can enjoy a hobby and an interest without the identity of that thing?

That's right. And yeah, and so I think that, yeah, there are things that happen at shows that I haven't been liking lately. Like, you know, we talked about this a bit, like people being very territorial in the front space, which is called the pit, you know, about their space and being really nasty to each other. It kind of goes against, to me, the whole sort of essence of that community. And I get angry about it. Part of it feels like righteous anger. I want you to not be that way, but I also need to check myself. I don't want to contribute to the anger either. But it also doesn't, because it's imperfect, it doesn't mean that I have to leave it. Because I get into that trap sometimes. I sort of get into the like, oh, oh, there's something wrong. I probably shouldn't do this anymore. And I need to accept that nothing's perfect. And I'm still allowed to love imperfect things as long as I'm checking myself. Right. Does that make sense?

I feel like I kind of... No, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We talked about this a little bit earlier about the kind of fake it till you make it thing, but it's more of like facing how you reframe a writer.

I say fake it till you become it.

Fake it till you become it. Yeah. 'Cause it's hard to, well, it's, why is fake it till you make it harmful? If it's like, let me just keep faking and hopefully it'll happen.

I think the problem, and it depends on how people interpret it, I realize, but the way I interpret fake it till you make it is kind of like, you know, sort of, you know, the slick salesperson who, like, really does not buy what they're selling, but they're gonna sell hard. Right, right. And, and never, and they're going to be faking that they will, yeah, making it might be, you know, being promoted or making a lot of money, but they're, they're still faking it, right? You, you don't really ever Faking it till you make it means faking it, getting the promotion and continuing to fake it. Fake it till you become it. And it's also about what you're conveying to other people. Faking it till you become it, the way that I think of this, is you're tricking yourself into believing in yourself. You're tricking yourself into, like, incrementally be a little bit more courageous.

Every time, yeah.

And eventually you become the person that you are in your mind's eye as your best self.

Right?

So you're not becoming, you're basically, it's like, I kind of think of it visually like, you know, you're this, you know, we're not just shells, but think of yourself as a shell and you're sort of half full. You know, faking it till you become it is sort of Filling that shell more and more and more.

You're partially, you're partially it, but you're not fully there. You're getting there. Because imposter syndrome is a term that's been thrown around a lot in the last couple of years. I'm hearing it all the time. Everyone's saying, not everyone, but a lot of people are saying, I feel a sense of imposter syndrome, like I don't belong or I'm not ready or I don't have the whatever. For me, I felt like I had nothing at the beginning and I was just like, I'm just gonna throw myself in and if it works great, if it doesn't, I have nothing to embarrass myself because I had nothing. I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half. I had no money, I didn't have a college degree. So I was like, there's nowhere else I can go that's worse than where I'm at. I didn't have anything to lose. I was just like, I have nothing to lose. So I'm gonna throw myself in there and hopefully certain things happen. So I didn't feel like an imposter. I felt like I'm an experience and I need to figure out how to gain experience. by learning skills, by finding mentors, by reading, by consuming content and developing more confidence. But why has imposter syndrome been become such a popular phrase? And is there a way to actually overcome it? Or are we always going to kind of feel like imposters if we're constantly growing? Because there's a new thing that next year I've that I'm going to try to do that I'm an imposter because I've never done it. So I'm going to feel a sense of, oh, well, I've never done this.

So here we go. If I'm growing as an individual, right? --Well, it's --We should always feel it in a sense. --Definitely. So I think, okay, to the question about, I don't know why it became, it's again, it's a catchy, it's a sticky, it's a sticky term to describe an experience that's pretty universal. And so it became, it's funny because it's It's to social psychologists, it's like a thing that we've talked about since the 1970s. Not that I was talking much in the 1970s, but it was coined in the 1970s. And it's so in academia, it's something we talk about. But it really got sticky in the last, like, you know, I do think that I talk about it in the TED Talk. I think that was part of it. I think there were some other books that came out that were talking about it. And it just captures the experience so well of feeling like an imposter in your own life, right? But the interesting thing is that, well first the woman who coined the term Pauline Clance, who was teaching at Oberlin at the time in the 70s. --In Ohio.

--Yeah.

--That'S great. --Yeah, Ohio. --That's great. --She's feeling like an imposter. --Exactly. She, well first of all, she said, she says that she wishes she had not called it a syndrome because a syndrome implies that it's pathological and rare, like it's unusual and it's actually so not unusual.

It's common.

Yeah, yeah. There are different estimates, like 75 to 85% of people feel imposter syndrome. Also, women do not experience it more than men. Men are just less likely to openly talk about it. So when it's anon, which is a burden, I think, and then they hold on to it. Because they think they're the only ones feeling it.

Yes, they feel alone.

And then women get the burden of being like, oh, you always feel like imposters, right? So it cuts both ways in bad ways. But I don't think many people stop feeling it if they keep on trying new challenges. So in my book, I interviewed Neil Gaiman, the amazing author of, you know, many, many, many, many best sellers and, and, you know, super award winner. And anyway, Neil really had bad and part of why I interviewed Neil, he's a lovely human, but he's one of the only men who talked openly about having imposter syndrome. And so, I wanted to talk to him for that reason. Also, he has a way with words. But he said that in the beginning, when he first started writing and was successful, he kept being afraid that somebody was going to come and tap him on the shoulder and be like, are you Neil Gaiman? And he'd say, yes, I am. Say, oh, sorry, you know, we made a mistake.

Oh, wow.

You know, we're taking all this back. And then he said he finally got to the point he'd written American Gods. which was like his big novel, he said. Like that was the big grand novel. And he said he thought he'd finally conquered imposter syndrome. And he spoke to one of his mentors and said, I think I finally conquered this. And he said, you, never, I finally conquered writing a novel. And he said, you, never conquer writing a novel. You just conquer writing the novel that you're writing. And so next time, So now a lot of his books have been turned into really wonderful television series. And he's a showrunner, right? And that was a whole new thing for him. So he said it just pops up. You see it on your desk, you're like, oh, there's the imposter, and he'll go away. And so you experience it every time you start something new. It just goes away faster. You don't get hung up on it. You don't become anxious about the impostor the imposter feeling.

And I think the more you're living your life and creating and building, if you can start to reflect on, like, look at all the times I was feeling imposter syndrome and look what I was able to create. And the results I got and the success or the impact that I had from making this thing or creating this thing, I can do it again.

Exactly.

It's like looking backwards to see the results. Right.

So you have this transferable sense of agency.

Yes.

Self efficacy is, I mean, the way it's defined in psychology is like it's your belief that you're able to do this certain thing. Agency is wider than that. And this feeling of being agentic, and I think that when you conquer imposter syndrome again and again, that feeling does become transferable.

Yes.

Right? And you're like, this is a totally new thing. But I've never been part of this rodeo, but I think I'm gonna be a part of it.

Right, right, yeah, exactly. You just know, okay, I've done this.

Before many times, I can do it again. And if not, I'll be okay.

I'll be all right. I'll survive. Right, exactly. I'm curious, I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I think when we doubt ourselves, we're not breathing correctly, we're shrinking, we're not taking any actions, we don't have the.

Courage, 'cause we're just constantly in self-doubt.

Do you think We can ever have too much self-belief?

I mean, that's a tricky question. First, I think what you call self-doubt, I think of as personal powerlessness.

Yes.

And what happens is that it activates what we call the behavioral inhibition system. So it leads us to be more pessimistic, to be more fearful, to think more narrowly, less creatively, to not take risks, to see people as predators. It inhibits us in every way. Even physically, we can tolerate less pain when the inhibition system is activated. Feeling personally powerful activates the behavioral approach system, which does all the opposite. It's like instead of seeing a challenge as a threat, we see it as an opportunity. Instead of seeing other people as potential predators, we see them as potential allies and collaborators. You know, we feel optimistic instead of pessimistic. Now, you could, you can get to the point of feeling too powerful. And, you know, in that case, I think that one of the things that, well, we know that one of the things that happens is that people, they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives. so they're not as good at perspective taking when they become real like, and this is a lot about social power. So when people have both social power and personal power, they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives because they-.

You- mean their feedback or their information.

Or their ideas or- It's understanding what other people are like, so- It's honestly, it's really more about social power.

Got it.

As people gain social power, they're less dependent on others And so when you have not much social power, when you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, you really need to be able to read other people's minds. You really need to understand what they're thinking because you're dependent on them. And as you gain more power, you're less dependent. And so you're more likely to stereotype people, you're less likely to be able to take their perspective, you just kind of forget what it feels like to be where they are. and so I think that's a problem. You know, I think there's a lot of research on overconfidence versus confidence. And overconfidence is I don't even really fully understand where it comes from. And to me, I don't think it is overconfidence. I think it's a different thing altogether.

It's like ego.

Yes, or like arrogance, you know, it's an overconfidence, arrogance is often coming from a place of feeling threatened and defensive. And it's a smoke screen for insecurity, right? So yeah, I say it's a smoke screen for insecurity. And it's a way of deflecting, it's a way of preventing people from challenging you because honestly they don't find you unpleasant. They don't challenge you because they don't like you, not because they believe you. So, I always say confidence is not arrogance. Confidence allows room to be wrong. So you can hear people. When you're confident, self-affirmed, you know who you are, you're able to hear feedback. You don't feel like you have to steal the microphone all the time.

Yeah, confidence plus curiosity. It's like being willing to be, okay, I feel confident, but I'll I might have a beginner's mind.

Totally. And if you're confident and you're excited about an idea, you should want that to be as good as it can be. And so, you know, if you're around people who are offering you good feedback, confidence allows you to hear the feedback, which I think is really interesting. Like, so I love watching Shark Tank. Yeah, it's great. I love reading the body language. Jonah, my son and I used to watch this, like, when he was younger. He loved reading the body language. guessing who's gonna do well. And I know you've talked to people about like the body language of lying. And it is so fascinating. I think like this body language of arrogance is really-- you- can read it.

You can feel it.

Yeah, and it's also, you know, body language is also nonverbal vocal cues, like a certain way of speaking. But it's like, it's when they don't buy what they're selling. If you don't buy what you're selling, nobody's gonna buy what you're selling. If you don't believe your story, nobody's gonna believe your story. Not at least in the long run.

How do you learn to buy what you're selling?

Well, first of all, when people say, well, how do I sell something that I don't believe in? I say, Don't sell it. You shouldn't be doing it.

You should find a different vision.

Go find a different vision. I mean, you can try, but I don't think you should. You need to check in with yourself about that. There are different reasons why we don't buy what we're selling. you could not buy what you're selling because you're actually self-doubt, you doubt your ability to sell anything.

Okay.

Right? And that's different.

Than the product or the vision.

Right. Or it's just not interesting to you. It's not something that you would use, but it's not that you think there's anything wrong with it. So there are a number of reasons that you can fix, right? You can learn to understand, well, this product really is helpful and valuable to these other people. And I need to understand their perspective. That makes you a more effective salesperson. But there are also reasons that should lead you to go, I shouldn't be selling it. So you need to figure out, is it because I don't relate to it or I don't believe in myself, or is it because there's something wrong with this thing?

Who are the people on Shark tank that you see after their one or two minute pitch where you're like, they're gonna get someone interested. You know, if the numbers line up and everything works out just based on their body language, their belief, what do they have in common where you're like, yes, I would invest in them.

There is, well, or I like them, you know? Okay, there are three kind of characteristics. The one, the first is that they believe they just, you feel that they believe their story. that they just so deeply buy what they're selling. They really care about this.

Yes.

And it's with their body language. Sometimes they say it, and I'm not sure that helps when they say, I mean, and I don't think they're necessarily lying when they say it. Saying it isn't, you can just feel it. They convey it with their body language.

Their energy, their postural feedback, everything.

Right. There's also, they're confident and not arrogant. And so they are open to feedback.

They're not like, this is the greatest thing in the world.

Completely. The arrogance is just, it kills the whole, all the energy. Why would a shark want to invest if you're clearly not open to feedback? If you think you have all the answers, and if you start conveying that right away, you're out.

Yeah, why are you here in the first place?

Right, so you have to buy what you're selling and convey that. You have you have to be confident and not arrogant. And that is, like I said, you show your confidence through your openness, your willingness to be open. It's not insecurity, it's not like, oh, I mean, if you don't know the numbers, you're out. You do need to know the numbers. You need to know certain things. But you can't know everything. That's why you're there.

--Right, because you need support.

--Totally. And the last thing is that there their verbal and nonverbal language is synchronized. So what they're conveying with their words, the feelings they're conveying with their words, match the feelings they're conveying with their body language. And if you see somebody trying to demonstrate deep care in an issue, but their body language just doesn't line up with it.

They're crossing their arms. They're turning to the side or whatever.

Or if they're trying to convey, I don't know, confidence, but they're showing fear. When we are fully present and just in it, that stuff becomes synchronized. We're not scripting our body language. We're bad at scripting our body language. We're best at scripting our words, second best at scripting our facial expressions, ish, but below the neck, we forget about it all. Like, you know, like people don't know what to do with their hands, for example.

Right?

There's like, I don't know, there was a 30 Rock episode about this. Yes.

About not knowing what to do with your hands.

I can't remember, I just remember there were so many, yeah, there was a whole episode about not knowing what to do with your hands. And people really don't pay attention to what they're doing with their feet. and their legs.

How important is body language with the feet and the hands when building trust and confidence with others?

It's funny, have you ever had Joe Navarro on?

No.

Do you know who he is? Former FBI agent.

I want to have him on, yes.

You should. He's great. He's such a character. I love Joe. He's a great guy also. But he has many body language books, but one of them is called what Every Body is Saying, which I love. He's clever. And he really gets into the nitty gritty. But he says one of the things as an FBI agent, I think he did like counterintelligence, was to pay attention to people's feet. So if you're questioning, and I'm not saying that this is, and I don't know what the empirical evidence is on that. But if somebody looks like, if their feet are turned away from you, and they want to run, he's paying attention to that. So he, like, if they're, but it's more if their feet are turned toward you and they don't seem afraid, he's more likely to believe them. Right? Like, if they, if they, right, right. But if they're hiding something, that's the asynchrony.

Hey, I'm here, open body position.

Right, exactly. And their feet are, so yeah, he thinks the feet are really important.

More than the hands?

Well, only because people are so unaware of what they're doing with their feet. So it's not that they're trying to.

Hide their hands, you can put them in your pocket or yeah.

Yeah, exactly. They're just not thinking at all that my feet are gonna give me away, which is kind of interesting. But yeah, but also I think there's really a lot of evidence that being grounded is is really important to how you feel, right? So, like, you know, walking around if you're speaking or something. And this is like, I'm kind of switching a bit here, but feet can really help you feel better. You know, not like sometimes people will stand with their ankles crossed or not totally balanced. Like, make sure that your feet, you feel that you're grounded and you feel that string, right? I have a friend named Rachel Kassar who used to be a professional ballet dancer and a rhythmic gymnast and she does body language training now. And she's really into that feeling of being grounded and how much that helps you. Like yes, you're connected to the ceiling, but you're also safe. You're connected to the floor. Right. Like you're not gonna fall through it. There's no trapdoor. You know, allow yourself to find energy.

In that feeling grounded. It's fascinating how many psychologists talk about body language and the power of body language to just improve the quality of your life. I know Jordan Peterson, I think in his book 12 Rules for Life, I think one of the first rules is Sit up straight.

Yeah, put your back straight.

I've heard that.

Put your back up straight. It's like the rule of life.

That's the whole just- Put your shoulders back. Neutral posture, right? Right?

It's just like- the funny thing about that- you-'ll have more confidence. You'll get more opportunities. People will like you more. It's like- yeah, yeah. I think that the funny thing about Sit Up Straight is that a lot of us heard it as kids from grandparents.

We resented it, right?

But also I think part of it was because we were told to do it to show respect to others. And the thing is, it's actually more about showing respect to yourself. Like be self-respectful, you like that one?

Yeah, it's good.

Sit up straight to respect yourself. And if you respect yourself, you're more likely to be able to respect others.

You.

Have to feel good about yourself to be able to treat others with sort of generosity and respect.

That's true.

So I think if we tell kids, well, if you sit up straight, you're gonna feel better about yourself. They're more likely to be open to that.

You're gonna feel more confident. You're gonna love yourself more. You're gonna feel happier. You're gonna have more to offer others as well. When you respect yourself, like you said, you're gonna have more generosity, hopefully.

So the whole like sit up straight, you're being rude if you don't sit up straight. You know, kids are like, well then I'm just gonna be rude.

So funny because you know.

Our parents'.

Story of make your bed in the morning, you know, was something that I never did until I actually went to a A boarding school that was kind of similar. They graded you every morning in the dorm to make the bed.

6:30, 7:00, 7:30.

It wasn't military, but it was like just a strict kind of boarding school with rules and dress code and all that stuff. And I remember just like after that, when I went to college, I was like, I'm just gonna wake up and let the bed be messy. And then when I got to, I think it was in my late 20s, I was like, I just don't feel good when I come back and look at a messy space. Let me try this out. Let me just start making my bed every morning and just spending two minutes, even though it's kind of a hassle. Like, let me do this so I can come back and just feel a peace in my resting space. -Yeah. -Not messy. -Yeah. And then I'm like, I wish I would have wrote the book, Make youe Bed, because that came out like five.

Years later and it became like this.

Massive speech and phenomenon. And I was like, I know. What our moms told us growing up, you know, for me, I was like, this has got to be a routine. Every time I don't make the bed, I feel like I have a sloppier day. I feel less productive, I feel less proud because I disrespected my sleeping space.

Yes, those little routines like that really help. I mean, that's the whole thing about being neat is that it's self-respecting. And I mean, it also, I know there's, yes, it clears your mind to not have to worry about clutter, but I think the self-respect piece is a big part of it. Although for me, I was like a, I was like an OCD bed maker as a kid. Oh, so you were like...

It wasn't good.

Like people couldn't, if somebody sat on it, I'd be like, you know, yeah, it was weird. I had, you know, a lot of kids have, can go through OCD periods and not have it as an adult, but I definitely had some weird... Do.

You still have it as an adult? No. Okay. You can hug people and you can be messy.

I don't. Bed making.

Yeah, now you're messing bed, yeah.

It's funny, because to me, you know, being a grown-up is about having freedom. You know, I want to do what I want to do now. Well, you know, it's like, I have a lot of flexibility right now. And my son, like, called me the other day, it's like 10 o'clock, and he's like, are you still in bed? And he's, I'm like, yep. And he's like, why?

And I'm like, because I'm a grown-up. I can do what I want. Exactly. So funny. Yeah, I love that. I mean, it's more of like, just what are the routines that are gonna help you be the optimized for that day and that season of life. There's certainly months where I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna sleep in and I'm not gonna do what I want to, you know, what I know I could do to be optimal performance. That's the season what I need right now, rest recovery season. So it's being okay with that as well, not being so militant like every moment. Which I think that's Not helpful either. --Yeah.

--You'Re too obsessive.

--No, I absolutely. --Gotta hit every routine all the time and every minute.

--Yeah, absolutely. --Wake up in the same, you know that's a lot. --They have to be your routines that work for you. --Yes. --I was talking to a friend of mine who was an Olympic skier and a national champion in women's downhill. --Lindsay Vonn? --No, her name is Alex Wubbles. And she's a fascinating person. because she also, she had a second wave of fame. I mean, she was pre-downhill skiing getting a lot of attention, right? So that was like 98 to 2002 was like her era. Her maiden name was Schaefer. So anyway, but her married name is Alex Wubbles. She became famous again about five years ago because she's now an emergency room nurse and she was working at a hospital in Utah, the University of Utah. And there was a car accident, there was a patient, she specialized in burn victims. He was badly burned, he was unconscious, and a police officer wanted a blood sample from him to see if he was he had alcohol in his system. By the way, it turned out he did not, and it was the other person who was drunk. But really not the point. The point was that you cannot take a blood sample unless you have a warrant or verbal permission.

He was unconscious.

Right, so he couldn't give verbal permission, and they did not have the authority to do it. And she was defending this man, and nobody else really was. I mean, they weren't, they were kind of being bystanders, and she was doing exactly by the books what she was supposed to be doing. Her voice is shaking. She's clearly really scared and not getting scared. -It's on video or something? -Yeah, sorry, it's all on video. And this police officer eventually, he's just, This is not a statement about police officers. This is just an agitated guy, okay? And who was just like, I'm gonna get this blood sample. He throws her against the wall and handcuffs her.

Oh my gosh.

And throws her into his cruiser and arrests her. And she's screaming, it's like 90 degrees outside the way. It's a really upsetting scene. And she absolutely did the right thing. So she became you know, known as people, as a super brave person, and who she is. And I knew I wanted to interview her for my next book, but I didn't know her. I'm giving a talk at the Association of Critical Care Nurses. It's like 10,000 people. It happened to be in Boston, and I did, I think, the longest book signing line of my life. Nurses really relate to this material.

I think-- Grace and Anatomy has been on there five times. So they watch this.

I think that there's a lot of power stuff going on in healthcare. It's tough. And they're exhausted. And anyways, I did the signing line, and there's one, and I was really tired. I loved signing lines. I love talking to people, but I was like exhausted.

After five hours, you're like, okay.

It was a few hours, and there was one last last person. And she was with a man, and the man walks over, and as she approaches, I see who it is. And he says, I don't know if you know who this is. And I just like, I saw you.

You're already tired. Yeah, yeah.

She's crying. Like, I knew exactly who it was. We embraced. I mean, we just, like, held on to each other. And she's like, you mean so much to me. Like, you've helped. Your work has helped me so much. And I'm like, I am such, you know, I'm such a fan of you. And I wanted to reach out to you. Anyway, it was Alex Wubbles. I did not know at the time that she is, she was an incredibly good skier, you know, and national champion many times. And I love skiing. Yes. Anyway, it turned out then we lived in Park City for seven months through the pandemic. And, and she lives very close by. We've got to be very close friends during that time. Anyway, that's great. What's interesting is that she's a physically brave and socially brave person. To ski like that, also she's like the nicest person on earth. She would give us ski lessons and be like, well, what do you want to achieve today? Just for fun. My husband wanted to be able to get his hips on the ground. She's like, we're gonna make that happen. And by the end of the day, she cheers, she's cheering for you. She's a great person. But I said, what are the similarities? Going down the mountain 70 miles per hour and being brave in that situation. And she said for her, it's about following her own rule book. She said, the best skiers are not skiers who have a one size fits all approach. Lindsay Vonn, you know, she likes fashion, she likes style, and people were really critical of that. And it's like she's got to be able to be who she is to be the best at what she does. Why are you bothered that she likes to wear makeup and, you know, have nice clothing? Why does that bother people? The more she was able to be who she was, the better skier she was. And Alex said it was the same for her. The more she was able to do it her way. And she had a coach who recognized that. Like she could not, she needed an off day before races. And he was like, okay, I'm not gonna force you to race. Like, I realize that for you, you're gonna perform better if you can do it that way. The bravery thing, there is, there's this, she said, for me in that moment, I knew that I could not live with myself if I did not, this was just the right thing to do. And I had no question. She said, there was no question that I was gonna do this. And she said, I was following my rule book. She said, to me, that's what's important. I knew that justice was important, justice in this sense of protecting this man's sort of freedom, his rights. And she said, I just knew that. And I knew when I was skiing that I had to do it my way, and that allowed me to be brave and perform at my best. So I think that that's really important. You gotta figure out what are your, again, it's back to what are your values, and how can you be true to them. But she's just, yeah, she's pretty cool.

That's cool.

Wonderful.

I feel like I could talk to you for another few hours. But I wanna bring us home here. And we're gonna have you back on when the book comes out.

Good.

And have you on for another long session where we're both recovered from surgery and-- I know.

We're gone.

For sure. I feel like actually the pain has been going away throughout this. I feel like early in the day the pain was heightening, but with you, I feel like I've just been so excited about learning this, that this information has been so powerful. I've got so many notes here.

Oh, good.

Just excited to go back through all this stuff. This is a, before I ask the final couple questions, again, I want to thank you Amy for being here. This is really inspiring.

Thanks for making this work.

I've heard so many great things about you from all mutual friends over the years. I'm glad we were able to make this work. How can we, before I ask the final questions, how can we be of support to you right now? What's the thing that we can do to, is there somewhere we can go on your, What social media are you most active on? Your website, can we opt in for your newsletter? Can we get your books?

Is there a speaking tour you're doing? What can we do? You know, follow me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn for sure. Is that your main place? It's funny, I have the most followers on LinkedIn. Okay. And I don't post that often because I want to post really good, sort of longer high quality content on there. Twitter, Instagram, keep up with me on social media. Amy Cuddy everywhere. And yeah, and for me, it's just sort of be brave. That would make me really happy. And it's okay if you say, tag me when you do it. I want to see it happening. But when you see, for example, somebody being bullied on social media, the way to handle that is not to attack the person attacking them. Say something nice about them in the comments. Support them. It could be totally unrelated. Say you see somebody being trolled or whatever, and there's a pile on, because that looks like the norm. So more and more people are doing it. Change the norm by being nice. Say, Hey, so-and-so, I really like that thing you shared last week, and this is how it helped me. And it's amazing what you'll see is more and more people will start being positive. That's a way of being brave. Be the one to make the first positive comment to turn things around.

I love that.

That would make me feel supported.

Okay, cool. Yeah, so if you're on Instagram, make sure to share this and tag Amy. Again, Amy Cuddy over on Instagram. Tag her that you're watching this or listening to this over on YouTube. Leave a comment below. Leave something positive about this, the thing that you enjoyed the most about this over on YouTube as well. Okay, this is a question that I asked everyone at the end. It's called the three truths question.

Okay.

So it's a hypothetical question.

All right.

Imagine many years away, it's your last day on this earth. You've lived as long as you want to live and you accomplish all the dreams and you have the life you want. But for whatever reason, Everything you've ever created, your written word, this video content has to go somewhere else. It's not on this earth anymore.

Okay.

So it goes when you go.

All right.

Hypothetical. And the only thing you have to leave behind are three truths, three lessons that you've learned that you would share with the world. What would you say would be those three truths for you?

Oh my gosh.

Yes, off the cuff.

Oh my gosh, it's really hard. The whole haters gonna hate philosophy, the idea that people are just bad people and people are just gonna be bad, don't buy into that. Just keep trying. The only thing that makes that absolutely true is if we believe it's absolutely true. So keep trying to be a better person, to model better behavior, to be optimistic about people. to have grace. Yes. I think that's the most important one.

Okay, that's number one.

The second is, you know, I'm going to quote Maya Angelou, Stand up straight and realize who you are, that you tower over your circumstances. So that is, again, Maya Angelou, not me, but I love what it captures, which is carry yourself with a sense of pride and, you know, and and self-respect, and you will become more self-respecting, and you will treat others better.

Yes. Okay.

That's the second. The third, I think, is we just leave room for people to be weird. Like, you know what? Let people let their freak flags fly. Like, don't put people in let people be different, like appreciate it. Just stop judging, like do your thing, let your freak flag fly and let other people do the same thing. Like if they're not hurting other people, you know, I just give people space to be themselves.

Absolutely.

That's it.

Those are powerful. I love those truths. Before I ask the final question, Amy, I want to acknowledge you for all that you've done, all the research, all the work, all the giving back to serve people and helping them gain confidence.

Thank you.

And improve the quality of their life.

Thank you.

That's what my mission is with the School of Greatness is to help people improve the quality of their life and it's to bring people on like yourself that I've been inspired by for a long time to teach what you know. You have this information, this knowledge from deep research, practical experience and teaching it to so many people that this audience could really use. So I'm grateful for your consistent dedication. I'm grateful for you being weird and starting to express that more on social media in the world and accepting that socially by posting the stuff that is unique to you, the things that you love, and reminding us that we need to continue to be unique to ourselves as well and be willing to share that. Acknowledge you for the generosity you have with so many people. Again, I have so many mutual friends that say you're an incredible giver. Incredible kind human being.

Thank you.

So I really acknowledge you for the impact you've made on my friends and the person you've become. So hopefully we can be friends after this and have you back on many times. And I want to see you continue to spread this message far and wide.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's been great. Final question is what's your definition of greatness?

I think greatness is It is a, I think people might think of it as sort of about being the most, the best, the most competent. I think it's a combination of being, yes, your most sort of effective self, but also your most generous self. So greatness has to combine those two qualities, right? It's about being both generous and capable. Women who believe in themselves and just being around that energy, it's just like that energy is gonna bring you along. Because I think sometimes we think like, oh, I have to do all of this in my head and once I fix it in my head, then I can go be around people. No, no, no. You need to go be around people because that's what's gonna fix it. You know, being in that environment, our community, our environment, it affects us so much.