Psychotherapist: 4 Trauma Responses That Control Your Behavior (Without You Knowing) | Meg Josephson

We're very hypervigilant of what do people think of me. When we are constantly doing that in all of our relationships, we lose connection with our inner world. That's trauma.

She is a licensed psychotherapist, a certified meditation teacher, and the New York Times bestselling author of "Are You Mad at Me?" Today she's here to break down how to stop focusing on what others think about you. What is the fawn response?

When we're in the fawn response, we appease the threat. We try to be liked by the threat. We satisfy it and prove it press it, compliment it so that we can feel safe again. And the other person might say, "No, I'm not mad at you. Yes, I still love you. Yes, I think you're beautiful." And temporarily it feels like, "Okay, we're good then." But then it comes right back.

Why do so many people ask the question, "Are you mad at me?" Ooh, I think there's a lot of reasons.

I think—

I'm assuming a lot of people come to you who have dealt with being a people pleaser most their life. That was me. And I wanted to make everyone happy around me. I wanted to shift and change my personality to make sure someone liked me or wanted to hang out with me when I was a kid. I worried when my parents got mad at me. I would lie so they wouldn't get mad at me. Yeah. Whatever I could so that people wouldn't be upset at me. And that, probably built a pretty deep wound and a trauma response in me in my teens and my 20s until I was about 30 when I started my healing journey and realized, oh, I've been a people pleaser most my life. How many people in the world do you think are actual people pleasers?

Oh, I think so many, but I think it's, it's sneaky. I think the type of, people pleasing that you're speaking about, and that I think the "Are you mad at me?" as a question speaks to is this feeling of, "What do they think of me? Am I bad? Have I done something wrong?" It's such an internal experience, whereas I think we hear of people pleasing as a more active approach, as over-apologizing and overextending, which is all true.

Yes.

But I think what's spoken about less is that internal experience of overthinking, ruminating, feeling like, I don't know who I am because I'm morphing myself to be liked and I'm changing myself in every room that I go into. So it's so common, but in my practice I find that it manifests in such different ways for different people. So it's not this blanket thing. It's so personal based on the home we grew up in and our nervous system.

Mm-hmm.

But it is, it's very prevalent because it's so rewarded. We're so applauded for, you know, this threat response.

So. Right. Why do so many people ask the question, are you mad at me?

Oh, I think there's a lot of reasons. I think especially now there's a timeliness to it. We are being perceived in so many ways. We have so many ways to receive validation. They saw my Instagram story, but they didn't respond to my text. Why is that? Did I do something wrong? Did my joke not land last night? Why did they only— why did they put a period at the end of their sentence instead of an exclamation point? Or why did they not like, haha, my message? So we have so many ways online to receive validation that we're doing enough and that people like us. And I think that absence of those things can send us into that tailspin of insecurity. So I think there's a digital element to it. And I also, this response, this are you mad at me thinking is quite a modern threat response.

Really?

So we have fight or flight or freeze, which are more primal threat responses. This one is called the fawn response.

What is the fawn response?

So the fawn response is when we are detecting some sort of threat. So that threat can be right in front of you. It can be like a lion in primal, you know, scenarios, or it can be, you know, some tangible threat, right, standing right in front of you. But it can also be perceived. It can be like, oh, my boss is being kind of cold to me today, or my partner's being really quiet. Did I do something wrong, or are they upset with me? That's a perceived threat. When we're in the fawn response, we appease the threat. We try to be liked by the threat. We satisfy it, impress it, compliment it, maybe even flirt with the threat so that we can feel safe again.

Interesting.

So it's really about my safety comes from being liked. I need to do more in order to be liked. And it's really the only threat response that we're not punished for in society, were applauded. You're such a good girl. You're so easy. You're so— which reinforces the behavior.

It reinforces it.

Yeah.

I mean, there is something to be like having good behavior and having good manners and like being respectable and like fitting in, I guess, into society in certain ways, but also not over-fawning, I guess, to say yes to every person's request. And not create a boundary or not make sure you're taking care of yourself as well.

Yeah.

Right?

It's a balance. And we're— I always say this, we're pro-social beings. We want harmony, we want connection. And healing the fawn response doesn't go away from that. It moves toward it because it allows us to have more authentic relationships and deeper connections. Because if we're people pleasing all the time, people don't really know us. They don't really know what we're thinking, what we're feeling, 'cause we're saying like, yeah, no, no, that's totally fine, whatever you want. We're not letting people in beneath the surface. And so healing this people pleasing pattern really allows us to have that deeper connection and moves toward that.

As I started to heal the people pleaser in me and started just, saying no.

Yeah.

Or saying, I don't wanna do that.

Yeah.

Or no, I'm not gonna go to your party. Or no, I'm not gonna do this favor for you or whatever, for whatever reason. It didn't go well in the beginning because for so many years I would overextend to make others happy, right? To try to be like, hey, I can be reliable at any time you need me. And I stopped being reliable to myself. By trying to please everyone else.

Yeah.

So how does saying yes to everyone else constantly disrespect ourselves?

Well, when we're in this state of being, we're very hypervigilant. We're very hypervigilant of what do people think of me? Did they like me? Are they pleased with me? When we are constantly doing that in all of our relationships all the time, we lose connection with our inner world, because in order to be so attuned to what's happening out here, we have to lose connection with our own preferences and wants and needs. And this isn't to say in healing this, we're only focusing on ourselves or we are, you know, we're so self-centered all the time and we're neglecting our relationships. No, quite the opposite, actually. It's being in connection to what's happening in here at the same time as being in the world and in relationship to other people. So the cost of people pleasing with everyone all the time is that, well, a lot of things. We feel like we don't know who we are. We feel resentful in our relationships.

Mm-hmm.

We feel like we're giving everything to everyone and no one's giving back to us. But it can be a little unfair because, well, people may not know what you need if you're not expressing it. But what's important to know is that this way of being for many of us is a safety mechanism. We're trying to feel safe, we're trying to feel loved, and sometimes we have to do that. And when we're doing it all the time, that's when it becomes totally exhausting and it's not sustainable.

What is the solution to overcoming people pleasing so that you can actually feel safe within your body instead of trying to look outward and create false safety?

It's a lot of things. I would say the most, the core piece is increasing your tolerance for discomfort.

Gosh, most people don't have this. I didn't have this for a long time. Oh, it's so hard. It's more the emotional. I could have physical discomfort.

Yes, yes.

Like I could train and work out and like exhaust myself physically. But I lacked the emotional courage.

Totally.

To look at someone or just say no and see them be upset with me. I just didn't know how to deal with that.

It's so hard, yeah.

Years of training that emotional skill. It's still not enjoyable, but it's like something I can navigate. Right.

Not having fun.

Yeah. But, you know, getting on the phone with someone who wanted to do a project with me and was like really asking me to do this thing. And I was just like, no, I'm not going to do this.

Yeah.

Yeah. And them saying, come on, I thought we were friends. And I'm like, you haven't talked to me in 5 years. We're not friends. Like literally just saying, we're not friends. And that's okay. And that means that doesn't mean I have anything against you. I want you to be successful. You should thrive and succeed, but we don't need to be false, fake friends. We don't need to fake it.

Totally.

Just 'cause we hung out 10 years ago doesn't mean I'm your best friend.

Just 'cause we live in the same city.

Exactly.

Doesn't mean we need to be friends.

And I remember when I had this conversation with this person, you know, years ago and I was like, we're not friends. I don't think I'd ever said that in my life.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was like a little scary to say. I was like, it takes courage to be in discomfort.

Totally.

It takes courage to develop those emotional tools. It's not easy.

Yeah, it's not.

If you've never developed it, unless you had some narcissistic tendencies as a kid and you just said no all the time, I guess maybe that's easier for you.

Yeah, yeah.

But it wasn't easy for me.

Well, and especially if you grew up in a home where you are on high alert a lot of the time.

Yes.

If you were walking on eggshells with your caregivers, if you're, if your caregivers were very unpredictable or critical, we actually learn it's unsafe for me to say no. No, you can't. I'm not allowed to have needs. I have to make sure everyone else is happy and it doesn't matter if I'm not happy. And so that's just a, that's a safety mechanism that's learned so young and is then carried into adulthood.

Yeah.

Why? Because it worked. It gave us safety.

And it's embedded in your nervous system. Yes, it is. You can't just like break your nervous system like overnight. You have to go through an unlearning and a new learning healing journey, right?

Such a practice. It's a practice. Such a practice. 'Cause that younger version that learned, I need to, people need to like me for me to be safe.

Yes.

That part is still in you, frozen in time. That's trauma. That's what happens during trauma. And so when some scenario in adulthood is reminding you of those early instances, that part comes out and is like, I know what to do here. I will change what I'm saying. I will say yes, even though I want to say no. I will say, no, no, no, no worries if not, even though I'm really resentful. So it's very safety-seeking and understandable.

If someone listening or watching is understanding they have this tendency, this people-pleasing or fawning tendency where their nervous system doesn't have the courage to say what they truly want to say with people, whether it be people close to them or people semi-close to them, How can they start a process of breaking free of that frozen in time, people pleasing trauma in their nervous system and start developing the ability to set themselves free?

Because this is a frozen part, like you mentioned, this is what that means is it's happening unconsciously. So we're not even aware most of the time that we're doing it. So that means that in order for us to break the pattern, we have to bring it from the unconscious into the conscious. All that means is pausing. Pause, slow down, notice what you're doing. And it might mean you're still in the moment people pleasing, you're still defaulting to your usual, but what the difference is you're pausing and you're becoming aware of it in a way that you weren't before. We can't heal anything until we've become aware of it. So having forgiveness too, this isn't a practice of perfection. I think often because people pleasers are perfectionists and perfectionists are people pleasers because it's, we find safety and control in being this like perfect curated versions of ourselves. And that perfectionism can seep into our healing. Why haven't I fixed this yet?

What's wrong with me?

What's wrong with me? I've been to therapy. Why didn't this work? And excuse me, and it's not about fixing. It's a daily moment-to-moment practice of just noticing what's happening, slowing down, pausing, and being curious about it.

Yeah.

It takes time. It's subtle, right?

I think developing a new nervous system takes time of integrating the healing practices and lessons on a daily basis. Oh, totally. Yeah. A day-by-day integration where you said it's like a stimulus happens, you have to pause.

Yeah.

And not go back into default.

Yes.

Unconscious, like nervous system reaction and say, okay, what was I thinking about this morning in my prayer or meditation or my reflection about how I wanna show up today?

Yeah.

And how can I respond differently with a little bit of courage today?

Yes.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

And then doing that day by day over time, you'll start to develop a new nervous system.

Yes. And it's very subtle. And I think sometimes we can't even, We don't even realize how much we've changed until we look back from years before. Oh yeah, yes. And I think what's really empowering to know is when the brain is worried about the future or the past, are they mad at me? Did I do something wrong? The breath is always here. And so that is always our portal back into the real. If our bodies are stuck in trauma, being with our breath, we're telling our bodies we're not there.

Yes.

We're here right now. And that's very accessible. We can do it at any time.

I heard someone once say, someone in the younger generation in their 20s say that every time they leave a room with people in it, they're always wondering what everyone else thinks of them.

Yeah.

What is happening when we're always worried about the perception of what other people think of us after we leave a room?

Well, I think most of the time it is after we leave. And I think that that's what's really interesting and is kind of the, what I explore in my book is it's in the aftermath because that's when we're no longer in control of ourselves. We've had the interaction, we've said the joke, we've shown up in the way that we did. But once we leave the party or we leave the work event, we can't control how we're being perceived anymore. And that feels very scary to someone that has found safety through being liked. Because how do I know if they like me? How do I know if what they're thinking of me, are they talking about me to their partner right now? I don't know. And that's really scary. But to me, that's the ultimate work is surrendering control because we can't control how we're being perceived. We can control what we say, how we say it. How we treat people, but how we're being perceived is really none of our business. And that's hard.

So how can someone create true fulfillment and peace and harmony in their life knowing they can't control what other people think about them after an interaction with them?

I think it's being okay that it won't always feel peaceful and harmonious.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. And that sometimes people will be mad at us. Sometimes people won't like us. And let's of course separate this from, we're still being kind people and when we do something wrong, we're still taking accountability for our actions.

Yes.

But when you are being you and you're being the person you're proud of and there's someone that misunderstands you or misperceives you, being misunderstood or misperceived is the scariest thing to a people pleaser. And I think it's, the practice becomes not how can I control how I'm being perceived, but how can I move through the discomfort of being perceived? Because we're always being perceived.

The discomfort of how we're being perceived.

That's right.

And it's like the unknown. Maybe they like me, maybe they don't like me.

I can't fix it. And then that people pleaser part comes in. Okay, next time I see them, I'm gonna be super on. I'm gonna correct their perception of me. It's just the people pleaser part that's trying to find safety in doing more and being liked. The practice is really surrendering that.

Instead of thinking, overanalyzing and overthinking and over-criticizing what you did or didn't do.

Yeah.

What can someone do on a day-to-day basis to show up as their full self and not worry what everyone else thinks about them?

I think it's looking in and saying, did that feel true to me? And because like I was saying earlier, we totally lose connection with how we feel and what we think. A lot of us don't even have the knowledge of what me, what is me? What does me even feel like? I talk about this in my book. I gave an example of, I graduated, it's so silly, but it speaks to this feeling. I graduated college and was looking at towels at Bed Bath Beyond and I was like, I don't even know what my favorite color is. Am I just a medley of everyone's personalities? Do I exist? Who am I when I'm not being perceived and trying to be liked. And so I think it's, it's really taking that moment to look in and that just that process of looking in is the healing because we're, we're breaking the pattern of always looking out. Interesting.

You know, when someone is a people pleaser, mm-hmm, is it more they lack confidence, mm-hmm, they lack self-worth, or they lack the understanding of knowing who they truly are?

I think those are all side effects of the deeper behavior, which is not feeling safe.

Okay.

And so when we are constantly finding safety in pleasing others because that's what we've learned to do. And by the way, most people pleasers were parent pleasers first.

Oh, okay.

And that's often the learned behavior. And then I think the not knowing ourselves, having low confidence, low self-esteem, is the result of doing that for such a long period of time and makes so much sense. As opposed to like those being the, the core.

Yes.

The core of it.

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I'm a new parent.

Yes. 6-month-old twins. Congratulations.

Thank you. How can I approach parenthood to raise conscious, healthy, you know, young women into becoming their greatest self, but also being able to be resourceful and talented and, and skill-driven and emotionally intelligent, but not please their father.

Yeah.

Or their mother.

Oh.

Or be a people pleaser, but also be a respectable human being.

Of course.

And behave in ways that uplift society, not hurting people.

Well, I think first of all, you know more about this than I do just by virtue of being a parent already. And also by virtue of you asking that question, you're already being a thoughtful, loving parent because you're concerned about it.

100%.

I would say though, the most important skill in parenthood and in any relationship is repair. Being able to make a mistake and to go back to that moment and say, "Honey, I'm so sorry. I messed up. I yelled at you. That was on me. That wasn't your fault. And if you wanna talk about it more, I'm here, but I just want you to know I love you. I'm here." What ends up happening is, I think for so many of us, for me, 100%, conflict was very big, very volatile. And I would go to my room, process it on my own, And then an hour later it was safe to go downstairs again. And my dad would say, "So what do you want for dinner?" He'd just sweep it under the rug. Just brush it under the rug.

No.

But—

No repair?

No. Oh, never, never, never.

He'd never apologize?

Not even in my vocabulary.

Oh my gosh.

But there's an effect that happens when that is happening. When that happens once, it's probably gonna be fine. But when that's happening, Every week. Again and again and again and again. That is something called complex trauma, which is these micro moments of not feeling safe, not feeling loved, day in and day out, day in and day out. What ends up happening for a child is we make sense of that by thinking alone in solitude in our room, whatever. Okay, I did something bad cuz he was upset, so I must have done something bad. And that evolves over time to, I did something bad, to I am bad. And that is that feeling of, I'm a bad person. Maybe I'm a bad person. Maybe I'm secretly a bad person. Maybe I'm manipulating everyone in my life into loving me. And I see this so much in my practice. It's such a secret feeling.

Oh.

And so repair cuts right through that. We're not saying parents won't ever mess up or won't ever yell or, aren't ever dysregulated. Parents do not need to be perfect. Please don't try to be perfect. But to have the courage and the humbleness, I guess, to— Say, "I made a mistake." "I messed up." "I messed up." "And I'm a person and I'm so sorry." That is so healing to a child. So I would say, I would say that. Repair.

Repair is the key. So would you say there's a significant link between people who have experienced some sort of trauma and then also becoming a people pleaser?

Yeah, big time. Big time. It's specifically this, this what I'm speaking to of this complex trauma where if you grew up, I write about this, where growing up it was like a home was like a held breath. Like I learned my dad's moods by the sound of his footsteps on the—

on the stairs. Earthquake sometimes.

100%. Like even the cadence of his breathing, I could know what mood he was in and how growing up in a home where you were on high, high alert, you were, you know, on edge a lot of the time. I think that's a, a really common scenario where people pleasing comes through because we learn, okay, what can I do? I can be good, I can be perfect. And that works sometimes. And for a child that is very empowering is to focus on, you know, the one thing that you can do. That being said, I share a lot of different scenarios and examples of homes that kind of feed that need to please. And there are different ways that it can show up for people. But also it's not just home, it's also people pleasing is a really big adaptive mechanism to bullying as well.

Mm-hmm.

It's an adaptive mechanism to living in society, whether it's your race sex, sexuality, disability, neurodivergence, learning to be a chameleon and morph yourself to be— to feel safe.

Yeah.

Just is such a brilliant safety strategy and it can manifest in a lot of different ways.

Yeah. You talk about these different roles that people tend to play: the peacekeeper, the performer, the caretaker, and the chameleon. Can you break down what each one of these looks like in daily life? Yeah. And which one were you more prominently?

Yeah, I think of these not as personality types, but more they're descriptive of patterns. And so, you know, you may see yourself in all of them. I certainly do. Or you might, you know, resonate with one more than the other. Also, I just wanna say there's 6. 6?

You want me to go through all of them? Yeah, what are the other, yeah, what are the other? Go ahead.

There's a lot.

Yeah, go ahead.

Tell me if it becomes too redundant.

No, 6. Yeah, there's the peacekeeper.

Peacekeeper, performer, perfectionist, chameleon, lone wolf, and caretaker.

Okay, cool.

Are the 6. Awesome. So the peacekeeper is the harmonizer in the family, is really on high alert of how others are doing, wants everyone to be happy. And really the core belief of the peacekeeper is, "I can't feel safe until everything is okay and everyone likes me." And that's true of the fawn response in general, but the peacekeeper is really focused on the harmony of the environment.

Yes.

"The Perfectionist" is all about finding safety through being perfect. For a child, that's often achieving, excelling in school, excelling in sports, whatever it may look like. Because a child learns, "Oh, if I'm really good at those things, I get like a glimpse of joy from my parents." Or I get a, they're proud of me maybe for a split second.

It's probably also looking good too. It's like—

Oh, totally.

You sit the right way, you dress the right way.

Yes, yes.

Whatever, mommy and daddy's perfect little boy or girl.

Exactly.

And how you look and—

Very much.

Grow up.

It's very much image-based in that way.

Yeah, interesting.

And it can be very lonely because does anyone know me? I can't let people see me when I'm not perfect. And that's a very lonely experience. And then we have the performer. This one is a little bit specific in that finds a lot of safety in just being on. And maybe it's being funny, maybe it's just cracking jokes to keep everyone happy. But I think of, while I was writing this, I thought of just comedians growing up in really dysfunctional homes and they found safety by—

Humor.

Humor. Keeping everyone happy in that way. Also very lonely because feeling like you need to always be on and Putting on a show.

Yeah.

It's tiring.

We're not supposed to do that all the time. And then the caretaker finds value in being helpful. And maybe it's because you were the oldest sibling. Maybe you had parents who were immigrants and adjusting to a new culture. Or maybe you had a sibling or a caregiver who had a disability. You had to step up, you had to take on a parental role in some way. But that can also just be because your parents just for whatever reason weren't able to fulfill those needs. So you stepped up to fill that role. Maybe now as an adult, you feel attracted to partners that make you feel like you're the parent, you— because it's a familiar role to you.

Interesting.

So you tend to mother or parent or father your romantic partners. Very common. And then chameleon. Loses themselves with whoever they're with. They morph themselves to match the people in the room to be liked by whoever they're with. Maybe they feel this sense of, "Am I fake? Because I just tend to adjust to be liked by whoever I'm with. Do I know who I am?" And then the lone wolf, which I kind of think of as its own little category. Which is I'm not allowed to have needs, so I will just disappear. I'm not gonna ask for help. I'm not going to show that I need help because my needs don't matter. And you may not think of this one as people pleasing because it's quieter, but it really is people pleasing because it's others' needs matter. But when I have needs, I need to disappear. So. Wow.

Okay. Yeah.

Wow. Those are the archetypes.

Those are the archetypes. Yeah. The things that we tend, tend to play out in our lives.

Yes. And worth noting, when those are the roles that we've had early on in our life, that's often the role unconsciously that we're going to continue playing as adults. Not because we want it, but because what feels familiar will feel safe and what feels unfamiliar will feel dangerous. So unconsciously we play out these roles because we're like, I've done this before. I know how to do this. I'm good at this. And so when we try to break it, it feels quite scary simply because we don't know how to—

It's unfamiliar. It's unfamiliar. So there's a big difference between being kind and people pleasing or fawning.

Yes.

How can someone tell in real time if they're genuinely being generous— or quietly betraying themselves?

That's such a good question. I think asking, do I mean this? Is a really good starting point. Do I mean what I'm about to say or do? And an emotion to look out for is resentment. When we are feeling resentful in a relationship, it's usually a sign that there's a need that isn't being met or expressed. And so when we feel resentful, we can pay attention to it. And let's And let's be clear, sometimes that's going to be inevitable. Like people pleasing with your boss, sometimes you gotta do it. You gotta get a paycheck. You have to, you know, that's genuine safety seeking. But people pleasing with your best friend who would totally understand, maybe not as necessary. Right, right, right. So it's important to discern.

Context.

Context matters.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not so black or white, but I think, Regardless if we are people pleasing with your boss or your best friend, we can still pause and look inward. What's happening? What need of mine isn't being met? If I could say or do anything, what would I say or do? Okay, now given the reality, what can I say or do? I would start there.

Yeah. There's certain people that for whatever reason, I don't know if it's culturally, tend to say, I'm sorry. After everything.

Yes.

Like if they're just walking through the store, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Yes.

Or like they didn't say something the right way. I'm sorry for not saying this, or I'm sorry I'm late. Or it's just like a constant I'm sorry.

Yes.

Is that a similar symptom, I guess, of people pleasing or where does that come from?

Yeah, absolutely. Apologizing for, well, there's a self-blame element to that of, me existing is an inconvenience and I'm, I'm so sorry for that. It's definitely a tendency of the fawn response in that I need to show you that I'm small. Of course, there's a difference between, you know, genuine apologizing and taking accountability, but just, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. When we're doing that all the time, it actually asks a lot of the other person because the other person then needs to say, you're fine.

It's okay.

It's okay.

No big deal.

They need to make— soothe your discomfort of feeling guilty.

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. And so that's why I always say people pleasing isn't really pleasing many people. It's tiring for you. It's tiring for the other person because it requires the other person to give a lot of reassurance. And there's a difference between validation and reassurance, which I can certainly get into, but What is the difference between validation and reassurance? Well, reassurance seeking as a behavior is very common for people pleasers. It can sound like, are you mad at me? Do you still love me? Do you think I look pretty in this? Are we okay? It's a lot of yes or no questions. And the other person might say, no, I'm not mad at you. Yes, I still love you. Yes, I think you're beautiful. And temporarily it feels like, okay, we're good then. But then it comes right back every day or every week.

It's like, why?

It comes right back.

Why do people need that reassurance constantly?

Because we're not getting to the root emotion beneath it. The anxiety, the insecurity, the feeling of deficiency versus seeking validation might say to the other person, well, we're first, we're, we're slowing down. We're saying, I'm feeling insecure right now. Hmm. What triggered this? Okay, let me think about this. Like, what's happening here? We're looking inward first, but we're having a conversation. So that might sound like, hey, I've been feeling kind of distant from you in our relationship, and I just wanted to check in about it. I wanted to see if you were feeling it too. And it's a conversation. You're not asking the other person to diminish the anxiety for you. You're letting both people share their emotions. Of course, the other person might say, might give some reassurance. Oh my gosh, I had— no, I'm not mad at you at all. I'm so sorry you thought that. But it's a slowing down with the emotion. But it's really what we were talking about, being able to tolerate discomfort, being able to, you know, be with our own discomfort when that anxiety gets triggered and let it pass a little bit before acting on it.

How does someone create their own self-reassurance and own self- validation without seeking it from their partner, friends, or family constantly.

Yeah. And it's a balance because it's okay to need people at the same time. It's okay to want to hear nice things from the people we love. Yeah. But I think it's the steps that we're taking. I think it's first pausing, put the phone down, don't analyze the texts or wonder, oh my gosh, where did I go wrong here? Allow yourself to be in some quiet, identify what does feel soothing to you. Is it deep breaths? Is it taking a walk? Is it taking a bath? Is it cooking yourself a nice meal? Identifying what does feel regulating for your nervous system.

Mm-hmm.

And reflecting what's triggered this, what's happening here? Is this a pattern? Is this a one-off thing? Spending some time with it, maybe it's journaling out what happened or maybe it's, Recording a voice memo as if you were talking to someone about it. And then, yeah, of course we can have a conversation with the person, but I think it requires some reflection first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What would you say is the most powerful emotion that most of us are ignoring?

Shame.

Mm.

Shame and distinguishing that from guilt. As emotions, I think is so important for people pleasers.

Do you think most people are ignoring shame that they feel?

I think people pleasers are ignoring resentment and anger, and I think people pleasers feel a lot of shame.

Ah.

Where do you want me to go? You tell me.

Why do people pleasers feel so much shame?

We feel a lot of shame Because there's an inherent belief that everything we do is wrong and not enough. Because remember, the fawn response finds safety in doing more. And so if we were to believe that we are doing more, I mean, sorry, if we were to believe we are doing enough, that would kind of feel a little scary to this part of ourselves that has learned I need to always try more and try harder. It's challenging that core belief a little bit. So shame is really important because, well, we've learned to use self-blame as a coping mechanism.

Mm-hmm.

And we need to always make ourselves smaller. We need to always make ourselves disappear. We have this, like I said, that sort of chronic feeling of I'm bad or I'm doing something wrong. People don't like me. There's just this constant, critical voice that's happening for people pleasers. And I think recognizing that that voice is there, but it's not always true. It's rarely true. Our inner voice is a tape recorder. It's a tape recorder of all the things we've heard growing up from society. And so to have awareness of that voice without immediately believing it is the most powerful tool.

Yeah. What is one sentence someone can say to set a boundary without feeling guilty.

Oh.

Whether it be an email, whether it be in person, whether it be like, how can you say something to set a boundary to not feel resentful by pleasing and giving in, but also without feeling guilty?

Well, I'm gonna give you an annoying answer, which is that you might feel guilty simply because you're doing something new. So if people pleasing has been our baseline, saying no will feel aggressive.

Yes.

Just because we've never said no before.

You'll feel like you're a bad person.

Yes.

When you say no, you're just like, I'm a bad person.

Let's define what is guilt, and then I promise I will give a direct answer. Guilt says, I've done something wrong. I've done something that is out of alignment with my values and my morals. And so I think knowing what guilt even is is so important because when you feel guilty, let's say, hmm, let's say you were out with friends and you don't feel like drinking that night. And so you were like, no, I'm not gonna drink. And then your friend's like, come on, have some fun. You're so lame. So then you feel guilty for saying, I'm not drinking. Well, pause. Are you doing something bad? Are you doing something morally wrong in this moment? Absolutely not. You are just choosing to make your own decision and your friends disagree, but you're not doing something morally wrong. What ends up happening with people pleasers, we take other people's discomfort and we absorb that as guilt. But it's not guilt, it's just hypervigilance to other people's dissatisfaction. And so I think being able to actually discern when is it, when am I doing something wrong and when is it actually just a fleeting moment of discomfort that I need to sit with? Yeah. You know.

It takes practice. It takes a lot of practice.

It does. Should I answer your question?

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

I guess I can do that.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's super important to start— you mentioned earlier that when you first started saying no to people, it didn't go well. I thought that was really interesting, or that like people— because people were so used to you being the yes man. It's so important to start with people that feel safe. It's so important with anything trauma-related, and in trauma healing, we have to start small and safe. Otherwise, we're going shock our nervous system. For example, if you were to set a boundary with your, like, your parents, your parent that you have a very rocky relationship with, they're not going to have a good reaction.

You may not be in their lives anymore, you know what I mean?

It's like, it might be destructive. And so what would happen is you would set that boundary, they would have a huge reaction, and then your nervous system would be like, this is why people please. What are we doing? Go back to what I know.

Yeah.

So it's really important to identify relationships that feel safe, like your best friend or your loving partner, or if you have a close sibling relationship, and it's even, can even be a shared practice. You can let them in on what you're working on.

I like that.

Yeah. I've been working on something. I'm really trying to be more honest in my relationships because I feel like I kind of, I'm not letting people in. I'm not show, I'm not being authentic and I end up saying yes when I don't mean it, and then I feel upset with myself.

And— Yep.

I just want you to know that that's something I'm working on. And then with the right person, they're gonna be really proud of you for saying no or for expressing a need.

The right person, yeah, yeah.

With the right person. But it's really important to start with the right person.

And I think the way, context is everything. Instead of just saying to your best friend who maybe you've had some resentments 'cause you say yes too much or whatever, and just saying, you know what, I'm gonna start saying no to you when you want me to do this. You can't start with that context. It's gotta be like, you know, I've really been discovering that I've been feeling this kind of frustration when I do this in life with people.

Yes, yes.

And I wanna be more in tune with myself in all my relationships.

Yeah.

And I love to practice this together. Like, I don't want you to say yes to me on something you don't wanna do also.

I love that.

Like, I want you to feel like you can say no if you don't wanna go out to the bar and drink with me.

It goes both ways.

You know, it's like— Yeah. Is this something you'd be open to practicing with me?

Yes.

Yes. So that I can improve in my life and this and that.

Yeah.

It's the context.

It's definitely context. And I don't know about you, but in relationships that I can be really honest and the other person can be honest with me, I feel the closest to those friends because I'm never wondering, are they saying something they don't mean? I'm always trusting that if they're upset, they'll tell me.

Yeah.

And that's a big practice for people pleasers as well, is to not mind read so much.

Oh man.

Because we often are like, well, maybe they meant this by this. And they had kind of, they didn't laugh that hard at my joke, so maybe. And so we end up creating these scenarios that don't exist. Of course, if we've actively harmed someone, we should be the one to initiate that interaction, but allow them and trust that they will come to you if there's something to be spoken about.

Yeah.

That's a hard one.

It's hard.

That's a hard one.

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All rights reserved. In your New York Times bestselling book, Are You Mad at Me? You say on page 159 that pain travels through families until someone is ready to face it. How does trauma pass through our DNA, through our families? Is this DNA or is this more just learned behavior in the environment?

It's actually both. Fuck. It's actually both. It's actually passed down in our DNA through these genetic markers and through these genetic codes. And of course, it's also how we are raised is going to be unconsciously how we will raise our children if we decide to have them.

Mm-hmm.

Until someone becomes conscious of the patterns that have been happening and goes through the emotional labor of breaking that pattern.

So—

One person has to say, "I'm gonna break generational trauma." Yeah. "I'm gonna be the one to go through hell for however long it takes to regulate my nervous system." Yeah. "To heal, to have conscious conversations, to have the courage to speak up and use my voice and to pass down a new language." Yeah. A new environment to the people in my life. And it takes a lot of work.

And it won't be perfect. And I think that is what I see a lot as well, is this pressure to, oh, well, if I'm a cycle breaker, I need to be perfect at breaking them.

It's going to be messy.

I know.

Messy.

That's a high standard to hold yourself to. And it's not human. We're going to mess up. I'm sure my future kids will go to therapy for something that I did, I'm sure.

But I always—

You're a therapist. Yeah, of course. I'm a person. And I'm sure that what I always like to say is I think a parent's weakness becomes a child's strength. Like there are things about my parents that I'm actively wanting to break. I wanna be, practice being a non-reactive parent. I wanna practice taking accountability and owning up to my mistakes, and I'm sure there will be areas where I miss the mark and my future children will, you know, break that pattern. So we can't be perfect. Being perfect is damaging. Does that mean you're never being upset? You're never showing sadness? That's really damaging as well.

So striving to be the perfect person is not— is not the goal.

Just doing our best.

Exactly.

Just doing our best.

What's the one thing you've learned through all the research in therapy and your studies and practices that you realize that you still need work on as a person?

Oh, so much. A lot. I would say my inner critic could use some softening still.

Really?

100%. I still, I have such, I've always had very, very critical thoughts. As I've said, inner voice is a tape recorder. You know, I picked up on that. But I think the practice that I'm working on and continue to work on is it's not about erasing that voice, but changing my relationship to it. That voice is still there because that little girl inside of me is still there.

Hmm.

And so if I were to say, what's wrong with me? Why don't I have a softer inner dialogue? I'm really saying, what's wrong with this little girl? She shouldn't be here. And so to, have acceptance that this voice is here, but to just not believe it so much.

Mm.

But I can get very, very hard on myself. I can hold myself to a very perfectionistic standard that's, I know consciously is unfair, but just to give some space between that voice and myself and recognize that voice is just trying to protect me. 'Cause if I'm perfect, maybe I won't be criticized or judged or misunderstood. It's such a self-protective voice. So creating just some distance between that voice. There you are again. Hello.

Yeah. Yeah.

When the wounded girl in you is feeling criticized or overwhelmed, what is she saying to you?

I think just like, stop taking life so seriously.

Really?

It's not that deep. Yeah, I think zoom out. A little bit, anytime I then like, I'll meditate for 10 minutes or I'll go for a walk in nature, I'm like, what was I worried about again?

Right.

It's just thoughts are very all-consuming when they're loud and they're very believable. And that's why the practice of awareness is everything because we're gonna believe the fearful thoughts way more than the loving thoughts. Thoughts in our mind.

Why is that?

Because we're hardwired for safety. And so we're going to pay more attention to those thoughts because we think there's a threat of some sort. And so the loving thoughts feel very hard to believe, especially if our history is rooted in, you know, if we have a trauma history. So It's just human. It just makes sense.

How can we learn to have more loving thoughts and believe them versus critical thoughts and believe those?

There's two types of thoughts in my mind. There's like that unconscious voice, that subconscious voice that just chatters. It's that background noise that we hear all day. And those are often our critical thoughts. It's just, Mm-hmm. Just there, versus there's a more conscious voice, a more intuitive voice. Do you know what I mean?

Sure.

Of when we're like actually consciously speaking to ourselves. If I'm like, okay, I'm hearing this voice and I'm saying to it, I'm safe, it's okay, everything's okay right now. I think those are two different voices. So I really use a lot in my clinical work, internal family systems as an approach of viewing —this Dick Schwartz, right? Uh-huh. Viewing this voice as a part. And I talk about this in my book, of this people pleaser is a part of you that has found safety through pleasing and being perfect and good. We're not trying to get rid of this voice and this part. We're trying to actually create a relationship to it so it knows you don't need to work so hard anymore.

Yeah. We had Frank Anderson on here, and he's, you know, kind of in partnership with Dick Schwartz or worked with him for a long time about the internal family systems. And for those who aren't aware of what this is, what is Internal Family Systems?

Yeah.

And how does it make us feel more safe understanding that there's all these parts of us?

Yes. On a broad level, it's that we are made up of a bunch of different parts that all play very important roles and functions that are all trying to keep us safe.

These are like psychological parts, emotional parts.

That's a good question. It's, it's complex. It's both. It's all of it. It's emotional, it's psychological, it's biological as well. But I think it's that these parts play a role in the system that makes up you, and they're all working hard to keep you safe.

Yeah.

But what ends up happening, I think, is when specifically through how I view the people pleaser part, in our emetomi is when we are stuck in this old way of being, this people pleaser part overcompensates.

Wow.

And works so hard and is so exhausted because it thinks it needs to. And so the healing is as us, our true selves, the wise, grounded, regulated versions of ourselves to create a relationship with that part. Thank you so much for working so hard. I actually don't need you right now. You can sleep. I will need you again, but I don't need you in this moment. We're not erasing it, but we're creating a relationship too. Yeah.

Speaking of relationships, you've had a— coming up will be 8 years sober for you that you were talking about. Yes, yeah. What is your relationship like with yourself now 8 years sober versus what it was when you were drinking alcohol as a coping mechanism?

Totally. It's funny, I always say I don't feel like worthy of using the word sober because I didn't consider myself to get to a point of addiction. So I almost feel like I don't deserve that word or whatever. Or because I don't have a distinct date, I have just like a timeframe that I stopped drinking. I'm like, do I, am I worthy? Am I allowed to use that word? Yes, I, by definition, I guess I am.

Yeah.

Oh wow.

So you weren't considering yourself an alcoholic before?

Well, I think I just had, I hadn't been drinking long enough, I think, to.

Sure.

But when I would drink, it would be very black or white. Like we were talking about of—

You were all in.

I was either not drinking or I, yeah, or I was going all out even when I didn't intend to. And it's worth noting I grew up my dad was very much an addict with not just alcohol. And my whole, like, I have very early memories of that. So that was my image of substances. Even though I consciously knew—

Yeah.

I don't want to repeat that. I don't want to do that. I have this black or white tendency in me. And so a lot has changed changed in that I'm just, first of all, so used to not drinking at this point where I'm like, why would I want to go back to it? Yeah. But I think for me, drinking was, I was so in control during the day. I struggled with eating, I struggled with overexercising. I was very perfectionistic, regimented. That was just my way of, coping with a lot of the unprocessed memories that I hadn't yet faced. And drinking was kind of finally I can like release and let go of control. But it was really triggering for me. Like a lot would come out, a lot of wounds would come out, all my fears, all my anxieties would just kind of pour out of me when I would drink.

Wow.

Again, because I was going hard. It wasn't just like a tasteful glass of wine with dinner.

Oh, yeah, it's a cheese, right?

It was college too, which I think is also complicated. It's like this context where it's fine. It's fine to be doing that societally.

It's not even fine, it's celebrated.

Totally.

Let's go out and party and do this or whatever, right?

And you kind of get ripped on if you're not doing that, if you're in that world. So I— but I got a really bad concussion in college.

Really?

Yeah. And that I really feel— I feel that was like a pivotal point in my spiritual process. I think that was meant to happen because it forced me to stop everything. Stopped. I couldn't drink. I had to sit there in silence, in darkness, and it was a pretty long recovery for me.

Really?

Yeah. And so that was really the first point where I stopped drinking in college. And then after that, the drinking just tapered. I never really went back to heavy drinking after that. And then yeah, eventually I was just like, I actually just don't even want this at all. Just stopped.

How does someone learn how to not use drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism to release and relax and let loose and reveal themselves, but actually be loose and free without drugs and alcohol or substances to be able to express themselves throughout the day?

It's funny, I think whether it's drugs, alcohol, shopping, any sort of behavior where you feel you lose control of yourself, binge eating. There's so many. And again, like with each of these, it gets clinically— I would view each of them differently and it would get more complicated. But—

There's probably a root wound under— that's—

Yeah.

Underneath each one of these tendencies, correct?

Right. In that we're finding safety through this control-based behavior where if I'm honing in on this behavior, I don't need to feel the discomfort, I don't need to feel the anxiety, I don't need to face what is bubbling beneath the surface. What ends up happening is we have this uncomfortable emotion rise up, and so we immediately grab a drink or we scroll or we shop or we— Yeah. Overeat, whatever the coping mechanism may be.

Porn, whatever it might be, yeah.

Absolutely, sex addiction, it's all to me, and I think of it quite similarly, similarly but different, of course.

Yes.

And so I think it's a layered clinical approach, but I would think of it as what during the day, how can you, slowly increase that tolerance for feeling that discomfort throughout your day and feeling safe throughout the day so that the impulse control becomes less. You have more control over your impulses.

How do you start to feel safe when you feel uncomfortable?

Yeah.

With that pain inside or that?

Well, safety's slow and I don't— I think we often think of, well, if I'm present, that means I'll feel good all the time. That's not true at all. I think presence often means feeling kind of shit. And am I allowed to say that on your show?

Yes, right here.

Yeah, super bad word. I know, it's really rebellious. I think it's being with—

Are you mad at me for saying that?

Yeah, very. I know. It's being with what is. And sometimes being present means being with that inner critic. It means being with agitation in your body, of course. It's really important to take in that discomfort in bite-sized pieces.

Yes.

So that it feels safe to do so. But it don't always feel good.

It doesn't always feel good. Yeah. You said that we can't change our past, but we can shift our internal experience or interpretation of the past. And so what would you say then is the first step to shifting the internal feeling of being unsafe?

I think it starts in the body. I, and I, for, people pleasers, for perfectionists, it can get very intellectual.

Yes.

What should I be telling myself? What are the exact words that I should be saying to myself? And of course, self-talk is very powerful, but I think it's from the neck down. It's slowing down our bodies. Even just elongating the exhale sends immediate safety signals to our body. If we inhale for 4, exhale for 6, it's immediately telling the body, You're good. We're safe here. And again, that doesn't mean it feels good. It can feel kind of discouraging. Well, I took a deep breath. I still have— I still feel anxious. But good for you. You're noticing the anxiety that's there and you're allowing yourself to acknowledge it. That is such a huge step. So—

It's big. Yeah. If you could give your younger self one gentle reminder, what would it be?

Oof. How young are we talking?

The time you feel like you needed that reminder the most.

I would say you're doing enough. You're doing enough. I think I internalized the message early on. I just need to always be doing more and making, achieving more and pleasing more and caretaking more and you're doing enough. And it's something that's actually, I think, important to mention with that people pleaser voice is when we have accomplishments, when we get an accomplishment done as a people pleaser, it's really common to feel kind of relief instead of joy of like, I did it, I did it. But we're not actually that happy with ourselves because we always expected ourselves It was always our obligation to have to do it. And so I think just that message of enoughness can feel kind of cliché even, but it's so important because we remember we find safety in doing more. And so for just this to be enough is very powerful.

Yeah, you are enough. As a leading psychotherapist, what is your ultimate message to all people pleasers out there?

Just one, just one message.

Okay. What would be your message?

I would say, which is a chapter in my book, nothing is personal, nothing is permanent, and nothing is perfect. Where we can remember those three pillars. I think that's, yeah, that's a good place to start. Great message.

Yeah. Your book is called Are You Mad at Me? How to Stop Focusing on What Others Think and Start Living for You. Uh, it's got a lot of different praise and a lot of great resources and tools to help people on their journey. So if you feel like you are— some of this is resonating with you and you want some more tools, make sure to get a copy of Meg's book, Are You Mad at Me? Um, you're also all over social media, Meg Josephson on social media, TikTok, Instagram, Substack, which is called Peace of Mind. Mm-hmm. At megjosephson.com. I've got 2 final questions for you. This has been really inspiring. Is there anything, first off, is there anything that we've missed that you feel like you would like to share?

I don't think so.

Okay.

Covered good ground.

Yeah, really good ground. This is called the 3 truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. So imagine, Meg, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on this earth in the future. And you live the life of your dreams from this moment until that last day. But for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you. So this content, your books, and anything you create, it's gone.

It doesn't— it doesn't exist on Earth anymore.

Hypothetical. Yeah. Yeah. But on the final day, you get to leave behind 3 lessons, 3 truths that you would leave behind to the world. And this is all we would have of your content. What would be those 3 truths for you on that last day?

Oh, well, I'm sure these truths were said by so many people that came before me that taught me those truths. So mine would just be paraphrasing what I've learned from other people.

Sure.

But a huge, just my core principle is just that everything's fleeting and impermanent, whether it's an uncomfortable sensation in the body or whether things are going really well. This is impermanent, and just acknowledging that impermanence allows us to enjoy the good stuff and move through the challenging stuff with more ease. Second one, I would say this is something that I'm saying this because it's just something I'm working on, is just opening my heart. Be open. I think it's really easy to close off our energy for self-preservation and protection and you know, prevent being seen and just practice being open. These are all things I tell myself. So I guess that's what I'm imparting. It's very— What I'm telling myself.

Yeah.

And then perhaps the last one would be, I guess another, ah, of course, non-attachment. And of course many people before me have expressed this, but I just think so much of my personal suffering and a lot of our suffering comes from gripping onto our expectations of what this moment should be or what we think we should be doing or what we should be feeling or shouldn't be feeling. And just practicing letting the moment roll off of us, knowing that it will change and that it is impermanent.

Exactly.

Is a constant practice for me.

That's it. My therapist says high engagement, low attachment.

Love that.

Be fully engaged and like—

Yes.

Passionate and excited about what you wanna create, but not attached to the result.

Don't get attached to it. Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's everything. Meg, I wanna acknowledge you for the journey you've been on, and I know you have gone through a lot growing up and you talk about it in your book about your experience with your father and different challenges you've faced. And I acknowledge you for using your life to heal and to study so you can help others overcome their pain and trauma because it's a lot when a child goes through uncertainties on a daily or weekly basis. And the fact that you have made it your life's mission to serve others is something I really acknowledge in you.

Oh, you make me cry.

Thank you. Yeah, so I appreciate the work you do.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

I've been thinking about this, knowing that you would ask it to me. I think, well, I think greatness is, it's so individually defined and it will look different for everyone. And I think that is greatness, is knowing what does greatness mean to me? But I think for me, greatness is presence.

Yeah.

And being able to be with whatever is, happening through the hard stuff, through the positive stuff, experiencing it because it just means I'm alive. Yeah. Is being able to, to live it. So there you go. I would say that.

Meg, thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Amazing. Appreciate it. Thank you. People will say to me, Dr.

K, I, I have no motivation. That's incorrect.

You have a ton of motivation.

You have a ton of motivation to stay home. You have a ton of motivation to play video games. There is such a powerful drive to return to the couch.

So identity shapes what we do.

He is a psychiatrist.