STOP GIVING A F*CK - The Truth About Success NOBODY SHARES! | Mark Manson

Everybody wants to be coddled and protected all the time. And it's like you can't like not only can you not be coddled and protected all the time, but it will backfire. You know, the more you're protected, the more you're...

There's nothing that prepares you one for being a huge success.

Sure.

And blowing up. You wanted it to be, but you weren't really sure that it would be this big.

Yeah.

And then two, how do you handle almost knowing that it's going to be so hard to recreate the same success or greater for the rest of your life?

Well, you just accept that you're not. And, you know, maybe I will, but you, I can't, you just have to accept. You know, like a book like this and a book like Eat, Pray, Love, like it's such a, it's not even once in a lifetime, you know, it's books like this come around once every five years. you know, and it's like getting struck by lightning twice in a row. And so if you think, if you aim to do it twice, you're just gonna drive yourself insane because there's just so much that's outside of your control. And so for me, what actually kind of got me out of the fetal position every day was just accepting that, you know, it's like, I'm probably never gonna have a book that's gonna do that well. I'm still gonna do very well. My other books can sell very well and can be great and can help a lot of people. But you can't get too attached to that number because you're gonna torture yourself for the rest of your life. So yeah, I had to learn to let go of it. I had to learn to be like, you know, it's great that it did that. I'm extremely proud of it, but it's gotta move on, gotta find the next thing. The new challenge.

I think of the Olympic gymnast, like this 15-year-old Olympic gymnast that wins the gold medal. Where it's like your greatest moment where a billion people watched you when you're 14, 15, 16 years old. You're on the COVID of every magazine, you're the talk of every talk show when you win the medal. And then what do you do the rest of your life? You will never recreate that and you did this at 15, 16, 17. And how does someone like that who has such big success accept yourself? You know, it sounds easy, you just have to accept, but how do you really accept yourself? And this is like first world problem, like oh, you won the gold medal as an author, essentially. How do you, you're gonna live a long life, you know, is the goal.

And I'm gonna write a dozen more books.

Exactly.

And some of them will flop and others will be best sellers. And so if everything, if subtle art is just always my metric, I've got a lot of decades of like misery in front of me. It's just, you have to be realistic about it. And I think the other thing too is understanding that, you know, I did some mental jiu-jitsu and I was asking myself, you know, what's more valuable to the world? Is writing a book that affects a million people a little bit or 10,000 very profoundly?

Deeply.

You know, who's to say which one of those two things is better or more important, more valuable? Sure, selling a million copies is sexier. you know, it gets you more attention, you do more interviews, but there's a strong argument that affecting 10,000 people very deeply is arguably a more valuable contribution to the world. And so I started thinking of things in that way. And it just, it took me a long time to kind of detach myself from that because it's, I think, When you're starting out as a writer and this is probably true with podcasting everything it's you you you get it you love seeing the numbers go up, you know, it's like every year the number is higher than the year before and and it it feels good it motivates you you feel inspired. You're like hell yeah, I'm growing. I'm getting better and At some point though like once that number gets high enough you got to let go of it yout just you got to let go of it because it's not sustainable once it's that high, you know, it's it's you're gonna run out of oxygen. Yeah, and And so it was a difficult process to kind of get back to like, okay, I need to write a book. Step one, write a book I love. Because when I started, so this next book, everything is fucked, I started out, I was like, all right, you know, I gotta keep the train going, you know? And so I started trying to write stuff that, you know, I thought subtle art readers were gonna really love. And yeah, it just, it felt very empty. It started to feel like Like a job.

Forced.

Yeah, which I didn't become an author to have a job. I became an author so, you know, I can do what I love.

And.

I just kept scrapping it. I'm like, no, no, no, this isn't going well. And eventually I did just get back to like, okay, I need to write for myself first. Then once I have a book that I'm proud of, that I think is great, Then I can look at it and say like okay, like how can we you know maybe change this or Market this so that it'll sell a lot of copies, you know that's step two but step one it always has to be in a creative process. It always has to be about yourself first mm-. And Otherwise, it's just it's not art anymore. It's not it kills the meaning, you know?

Right, right so you went through a process of huge success, but it also sounds like a a little sadness and forcing yourself to try to create the next hit because of the pressure from publisher or whatever you had and the deal you had and not being satisfied with the results you were creating.

Yeah, I mean it's, there was definitely external pressure, you know, publisher and everybody, but there was a lot of internal.

You know, yeah, of course.

I want to see my number go up, you know, it's like my, I want my 2019 to be bigger than my 2018 and it's, at a certain point you can't control that anymore, you know? And the other thing that happened, and it's funny because I think it was around the time I was here.

Because.

I think we talked like a year after it was out or something, a year and a half after it was out, I actually got really bummed out, which is something I thought I was insane at the time. So this is one of those things people don't Tell you about success is that if you have this dream for like your whole life and then you accomplish that dream you don't have a dream anymore and that's terrifying because it's you wake up and you're like oh crap, what do I do with myself? You know, it's like okay, I got a lot of money and I got like a lot of fans but like I had this dream, I don't know what to dream for anymore And so I went through this period for about six months where I was just really like, wow man, what's the point of all this? I worked so hard for 12 years to get to this point. And what, just to play Zelda all day? Is that it? Is this it? I'm 33, is this really all it's gonna be?

Because you'd written how many articles for your website?

Hundreds. thousands, you know, I started in, in 07.

Wow.

Online. And so, yeah, and it, it took, the way I describe it is that it took time to find new dreams, new things to new visions for, like, the future that I want for myself. And, and it's funny because since I went through that, I've got I've got a group of friends who are in the startup world out in New York. And I know a couple guys who have exited, had really successful exits.

And they go through depression also, or like a sadness.

And yeah, I remember talking to one of my buddies about it and I was like, yeah man, I'm really bummed out. And I feel insane, I feel like a crazy person. And he was like, oh yeah, that's normal. He's like, yeah, startup guys go through that when they exit their company. He's like, yeah, you work for some, you wake up every single day for 10 years for a certain reason, and then that reason's gone. And so you just lay in bed and you're like, well, shit, what am I gonna do today?

Yeah, after you spend the money on a few fancy toys or the trips or whatever, then you're like, okay, now what's my purpose?

Yeah, it's fun for like a month. You know, it's take the wife to Paris, you know, go to a fancy restaurant or two. you know, take your parents somewhere and then you just kind of sit on the couch and they're like, now what?

Yeah, I think dreams are some of the most important things and when we don't have a dream, we don't have a mission or a purpose in life. And I remember a similar feeling when I was playing, when I was doing the decathlon in college. It was my goal to be an all-American. So I had to qualify for the national championship first and that was a process of of qualifying. Then I got to the national championship and I had to place in the top eight to be an All-American. So my whole goal was like, how do I get number eight? Because I was brand new at the decathlon. I just started practicing six months prior. I was like, I just need to get eighth place and it doesn't matter. No one's gonna know if I'm eighth or first. It's just All-American. And I remember I got eighth place and I was on the podium and I got my, you know, trophy or whatever. and I was very emotional and I had these mixed feelings. And about 10 minutes after, I was really angry.

Really?

My parents were there, my coaches, it was a big celebration and I was at the dinner table. I just didn't want to be around anyone. Yeah. I was kind of a jerk. I was just like, didn't want to look anyone in the eye. I was frustrated because I think I realized I didn't know what I was going to do next. Sure. It's like everything I've been working for, so dedicated every morning, it happened and now what?

Yeah.

And that's the scary thing.

Well, and it's some of that anger too, it's because when you do accomplish that goal or that dream, and it's like, let's be honest, the reality is never as nice as it was in your head.

The feeling, you don't really get the feeling that you're looking for.

Yes, yes, and you're the same person and you've got the same problems, same insecurities, and you just worked your ass off for this thing that's you know, and it's gone within hours, you know, the feeling is gone.

You think it's gonna give you something?

Yeah, or change you in some way. And it's like, no, you wake up the next day and you're the same dude.

You still feel like a piece of crap and you lied. You still feel like you're trash or whatever it might be.

But it's funny because everything we're talking about, so I gotta fit the new book in here.

Everything's fucked.

Everything is fucked, a book about hope. So, Kind of going back, bringing these two threads together, I eventually reached the point where I was like, you know, I pitched a bunch of book ideas to my publisher and, you know, they're like, oh, it's on brand and this is great, you know, it's gonna be a good follow-up or whatever, and it just nothing was working. And then I reached that point where I'm like, I gotta go back to basics. I gotta write something that's true to myself. You know, my formula through my whole career has always been My writing is basically just a very public form of therapy. So like whatever issues I'm going through, I write it out. And I write it out in such a way that, you know, hopefully other people can get something out of it as well.

That's for me, for the podcast too. I interview the people that I need the most help with, you know, on relationships or business or whatever it may be.

Totally. And so I went back to him like, all right, I need, let's start out by writing about what I'm struggling with. And so that's where the whole theme of hope came in. I didn't know what to hope for anymore. And that, strangely enough, that caused me to be just as depressed as low points in my life where I had no money and my girlfriend left me and I also had nothing to hope for. And so it made me realize that, you know, what's going on in the material world is totally you know, not the point. It's a side effect. What matters is do we have that vision of hope in our mind? Do we see a possible future for us to step into that will make our lives better? And as soon as you take away that vision, we don't know what to do with ourselves and we despair essentially. So that's the starting point of the book is how we need to constantly be constructing these dreams and these visions for ourselves and what happens when they're taken away and how are they taken away?

Or if we achieve them and they're no longer there.

Yeah, achieving them is one way of Taking them away. Taking them away.

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah.

And then of course I get into all sorts of other stuff.

So how does someone develop a sense of hope when they feel stuck or when they feel they've gone through a big breakdown in their life? whether it be the relationship, the family, the career, the money.

So I think that's where a lot of kind of the classic self-help advice comes in. You start with something simple and small. You set small goals. You stairstep, take one thing at a time. Start with yourself, treat yourself better, get good sleep, eat a little bit better. Start with basic habits and goals. And then they start to build upon themselves. And the funny thing was, is that, you know, it was the exact same with my issue too. It's like, like I said, I basically just sat around and played Zelda for like three months and like, and it was strangely just like one of the most awful periods of my adult life. But I was like, I'm living the dream, right? This is the dream, right? You know, like trying to convince myself.

Sure, sure.

But yeah, it was the same thing. It's like, all right man, get back in the gym, you know, take on some new projects. I told my agent, I'm like, just go find me something like anything, you know?

Is that when Will Smith came about?

No.

Go find me anything.

Go find me anything. She's like, oh, I got Will Smith for you. No, he came a little bit later, but it was, you know, I was working my way out of this, you know, by the time. his people contact. Yeah.

So how, how, how do we develop a sense of hope for ourself? How do we, you know, create a new vision, a new dream, a new game plan?

Yeah.

Moving forward in any moment that we feel stuck.

The two, the, the, the two things that I talk about in the book is, one, you need to develop a sense of values. You need to, you need to essentially value something, so. For you to have any vision of hope in the future, something needs to be better or worthwhile. It needs to be valuable.

The life you're looking to create.

Yes. And it can be anything. It can be helping out the kids at the local school. It can be building a company. It can be buying a new car, whatever. But it's something needs, you need to decide that something is more valuable than what you have today. And oddly a lot of people struggle with that. They don't know which way to go, they don't know what a better life would look like.

Or they want to do so many things that they do nothing. I've seen that also. It's like, well I love this and that and all these other things. I don't know which direction to go.

Yeah, and so they don't go anywhere. So it's like you got to pick that one thing that is kind of the central value in your life. And then the second component is that you need to feel that you're capable of getting there. So it's like if I decided that the goal of my life is to be the prime minister of Czechoslovakia, that's not gonna happen. That's just unrealistic. And so if you have this vision that is just completely detached from reality, and you see this a lot, people will pick goals or dreams that are just so out there, that it gives them an excuse to not do anything. You know, it's like, oh, well, there's no way I can make it anyway, so I might as well just sit around and eat Doritos or whatever.

Play Zelda all day.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It's like, I'm not gonna sell 10 million books again, so I'll play Zelda. You know, like, so it's about finding a vision that can kind of bring both of those things together.

Together.

It's about being realistic about who you are, where you are, and then also having a solid, making a solid decision about like what is better in the world, what is a worthwhile pursuit for your life.

That's the first kind of step is figuring out what that is for you, the better value. But not being so unrealistic. But I think you also want to be like, you want to push yourself a little bit too probably, right?

Totally. Yeah. Because then otherwise you're not improving.

You don't want to do a safe thing. You probably want to do a little bit scary. Like, oh, that's challenging. Let me go after that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And, and, and one thing I talk about later on in the book is that there's kind of like, I think there's a, there's like a, a Goldilocks amount of stress and pain in our lives. If there's no pain in our lives, then there's no sense, like you said, there's no sense of sacrifice that there's anything valuable that we're working towards and so then we lose hope, we lose meaning.

So you're saying we should experience pain on this process?

Yes.

How much pain should we experience?

Well it's the Goldilocks thing. So if you have no stress or pain, then everything is just gonna feel meaningless because you're not actually sacrificing. You're not actually giving anything up to achieve something. But if you have too much stress or pain, then you become traumatized and you damage yourself. So there's a sweet spot of like, you want enough stress and pain so that it gives you that sense of meaning and accomplishment, but you don't want too much that you give up and cave in. And that's not simple. I mean, it's something, it's kind of.

Listening to your body, listening to your heart, your mind, make sure you're checking in with yourself every week.

Yeah, and the perfect metaphor is like working out. You know, it's like if you go into the gym and you walk on the treadmill, like we've all seen those people who come in the gym and are walking like one mile an hour on the treadmill on their phone, you know, it's like that's not a workout. You're not getting anything out of it. But at the same time, if you go into the gym and you just destroy yourself, For hours.

Can't walk for two weeks.

You're gonna get injured, you're gonna, you know, it's gonna backfire. So it's the same thing with our psychology. You know, if we're too pampered, if everything's too easy, if everything's given to us without any reward or effort.

We.

Essentially remove a sense of value from our lives, and that removes a sense of purpose. And so that kind of, that causes a crisis of hope. People struggle with depression and anxiety and things like that.

When things are too easy, we don't have as much hope is what you're saying.

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah.

So what are you doing now that you've got all these first world problems? And that life is very comfortable, everyone wants to talk to you, Will Smith's knocking on your door to write books, you've got all the food and luxury in the world. How do you develop, how do you create pain for yourself? I'm, It's almost like you have to force it.

You do. I mean, you really do. Especially once you, and this is actually one thing I talk about in the book, is that as, because there's a little bit of a paradox going on in society today, which is, you know, we're, by most metrics, we're safer, healthier, wealthier, living longer than ever in human history. There are fewer wars, there are fewer diseases, Yet everybody's like freaking out constantly, you know?

Anxious, overwhelmed, stressed, depressed, anxious, yes. On medication, drugs, suicide, everything.

And then you look at like all the political crap that's going on, you know, so it's people are just, there's like this almost fever pitch thing happening in society despite the fact that everybody, like everything is actually the most comfortable it's ever been. and so one of my arguments is that the more comfort and luxury we experience, the more we have to be selective. We have to consciously choose our discomforts and our stresses. Back in the day, if you were a farmer in the 1800s, or if you're a subsistence farmer out in India, you don't have to worry about any of this stuff. It's like you get up and work every day. Your vision of hope is I need to feed myself and my family and I need to get up to work every day or else we're all gonna starve. You know, so it's a very simple, it's very easy for that farmer to find meaning in their life. But when you're like living in a nice condo in LA and you've got like awesome opportunities happening and cool new sushi restaurants opening everywhere and awesome vacations down in Tulum.

Postmates every day, just giving it to you.

Exactly. You have to seek out that stress because if you don't, if you don't pick those things to challenge and to stress yourself, you're gonna start succumbing to all the little things. You're gonna start throwing a fit if the Postmates guy doesn't bring enough forks. You know, you're like, this is bullshit. I'm gonna call the manager. Like, you know, it's like, dude, that's not a real problem. You know? You know, so you need this. You need to start. And this is what I talked about in some art. You need to start picking your problems. So for me, and I've. I've really experienced this the last few years is my life gets even more luxurious and easier. Like, I have to be a lot more conscious about. choosing my struggles, choosing what pain I want to put myself through in my life. Because if I don't, if I don't choose that pain, then I'm gonna be back on the couch playing Zelda.

What are the pains that you're choosing for yourself?

So one thing I'm doing, I'm doing a speaking tour this summer. And that's terrifying. That's like, I think I'm doing like 14 cities, theaters with like a thousand people. Hour long talk. I'm mortified. I'm like absolutely mortified. But it's good because it's like, it's push, I'm pushing myself and I'm pushing like pushing my skills and my ideas. You know, and we joke about, you know, Will Smith knocking on your door. Like, dude, that's a lot of pressure, man. Like, you get a guy like him and he comes to me and he's like, Hey, man, I want to write a book about, I just turned 50. I want to write a book about my legacy. and it's like, that's on me, you know? It's like, don't fuck this up. So, I mean, it's, but that's all good, good pressure. It's good stress and it's good, it's good fear because these are the fears that I want. This is the stress that I want. And so I think it's just, it's so important today that I think as a culture, we're just getting away from that. Everybody wants to be coddled and protected all the time. And it's like, you can't. Like, not only can you not be coddled and protected all the time, but it will backfire. You know, the more you're protected, the more your feelings are always protected, the more sensitive you're gonna get to every little thing that goes wrong in your life.

Yeah. I think Jordan Harbinger, when I had him on, he said, don't protect your kids. Yeah. He's like, don't keep your kids safe. Obviously, I want to keep them safe, but he's like, don't protect them. from their vulnerabilities, like allow them to get stronger through the pain. And the stronger they become, the more resourceful they'll be independently in the future. It's interesting because I think a lot of people want to play safe. And I'm always looking for ways personally to challenge myself physically, mentally, emotionally, every day. Even if you just do a hard workout a day. Tiffany, who's running the video over here, she gets up at 5 a.m. and runs at least three miles every morning. And she posts about it and it inspired me because I'm like, man, did I miss my workout today? Dang, she's getting up at 5 a.m. and doing this workout. It's like, it's inspiring. That can be all you need to do for the day. You don't need to frickin' crush every part of your day and lean into all this pain emotionally, physically, mentally. But if you focus on something every day where it's painful, I'd rather sleep in for an hour. I'd rather not run this far. I'd rather not write this many pages in my new book. I'd rather just play games. Any way we can push ourselves just a little bit more is going to make us more fulfilled as well.

Yeah.

I think so. So how did this Will Smith thing come about? You know, subtle art crushing, few million copies sold, and he just gets your cell phone and calls you.

His agent, he- Pretty much the opposite, polar opposite of that. I had to go through like eight different gatekeepers before I even, oh, you.

Reached out to him first?

No, no, no, no. So he's actually, he's been looking to do a book for a while.

Yeah. And.

And he read, I think his manager read subtle art, gave it to him. He read it and really liked it. And, and so then he kind of tapped his team, said, yeah, go, let's talk to this guy. So I had this was I think it was late 2017. I was actually out here. I went down the Sony studio. Well, first I had some phone calls and then I went down to Sony Studios, met with his team and we need to make sure that our values align and that we feel the same way about a lot of issues. So we got along, it went great. And then they told me they were like, okay, cool. So I think the next step is for you to actually meet Will and see if you guys feel it out, get along well. And I was like, cool, awesome. They said, you know, we'll be in touch. I was like, okay, like four months go by.

Really?

Don't hear anything.

Crickets.

Crickets. I'm like, all right. And the whole time in my head, I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna, you know, don't count your eggs before they, your chickens before they hatch or whatever the saying is. It's like, I'm just not gonna expect anything and I'll just be glad if it happens.

So, so you're playing Zelda for four months.

Yeah. I'm like, Please call Will, please call. And so suddenly I get an email and they're like, like, Hey, so Will wants to meet you. We want to fly you out to London. Because he was doing the Aladdin movie. I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, just let me know when, I'll check my schedule. And then they come back. This was like on a Tuesday and they come back.

Tomorrow.

They're like, Thursday. Like two days from now. And I was like, are you people insane? You know? And so I had a conflict, you know, I had like an event or something. I'm like, I can't go. And they're like, oh, okay.

And then like two months later, two months go by.

Two months later.

Yeah.

And then they come again and they're like, okay, so you're gonna fly out to Miami and you're gonna meet them. And this time I was ready, you know, and they're like, you know, tomorrow. I'm like, cool, I'm in. Ticket never comes. And we kept going through this for like months.

Really?

And I actually haven't talked to them about it, but I'm pretty sure it was intentional. It was to see if I would basically be a prima donna. Like if I'd be like, this is bullshit, you don't respect my time, like how can you like, how can we collaborate if you're not even gonna like, you know, it's, His life is so crazy and his schedule is so crazy and like he can literally just get on a plane and fly to another continent for an afternoon and then fly back like that they need to make sure that I'm gonna be okay, you know, like I'm not gonna take it personally if he gets on a plane and goes to Africa and I'm like just twirling my thumbs on the runway, like I'm not gonna get upset about it. So finally After about six or eight months of this, they said, Can you come down in two days? I'm like, yeah, plane ticket comes through.

Finally.

And I'm like, All right, here we go. So I went down to Georgia and met him on the set of Gemini Man. And, yeah, he comes out just fresh prints, man. Same as ever.

Having fun.

Just goof from the first moment. Just goofing off, like just totally goofing, joking, laughing, nicest guy in the world. And then yeah, I ended up, I spent about four days with him. And it was no pressure, it was just, you know, talk, get to know each other. And then at the end of those four days, It was actually funny. We were at dinner with a group of 10 people and I'm sitting across from him like this and we're all just joking around. His kids are there and we're just having a nice, relaxed dinner. And all of a sudden in the middle of the meal, I was going home the next afternoon. In the middle of dinner, he just looks at me and he's like, so Mark, we got a book or what? And I'm like, the whole room goes silent. I'm like, oh shit. And I told him, I was like, well, I've got some ideas, but let me write them up and I'll show them to you in the morning. And he's like, All right, man, let's do it. And so run back to my hotel.

Room and I'm like, Shit, shit, shit.

You know. One of my ideas. Yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, gotta come up with an idea. No, I did have an idea that I felt really good about. So I went back to the hotel room, wrote it up, met him for breakfast. Pulled out my laptop, showed him a brief outline and yeah within 30 seconds he was like, this is it. Wow. This is it. Yeah, he's done. Wow.

That's pretty inspiring, man.

It's crazy. It was absolutely crazy.

Wow.

Yeah.

What can you share about the book and the interviews you've done with him and the whole process since that moment?

Sure.

Did you guys take it to a publisher right away? Did it take another eight months? I mean, what was the process like?

So we did, that was about a year ago. So we did publisher pitches in the summer. So he and I met up about once a month for three or four months just to get a proposal together, get like an outline, a proposal. For people who don't know, I know you know, but like you, the process of making a book is you write out kind of like a 20 to 30 page proposal, which is you've got an outline, you have a sample chapter, you have maybe an introduction, and then you take it to all the publishers and they bid on it. They give you, they offer you a certain amount of money or whatever. So we did that and then he came here to New York over the summer and we did, we took all the publisher meetings and it was funny.

Because it's- Together you did it.

Yeah, we did it together.

What was that like? Being in the room with him just being like, you know.

No, it's being in the room with him, I just, I always tell my friends it's like an alternate universe because it's just the attention, like the energy and the attention just, there's like this vortex around him and any room that he goes into, I mean part of it is just the level of his charisma, but part of it's the celebrity thing, part of it's, you know, like if he goes into a hotel lobby, It's just bananas. Like, people forget they're working. Security guards, like, leave their posts to come take a selfie. You know, it's crazy. It gets, it's completely nuts. So the publisher meetings were really funny because, you know, a lot of them were, like, very, very Star Struck. A lot of them brought, like, teams of, like, 12 people.

Oh, my God.

Just to meet them.

Just to meet them.

And you're, like, you're, like, four.

Yeah.

And it's like, It's like, okay, you know, these three people need to be here. Those nine definitely do not. But, you know, so it was a little bit of a circus. But it was, I mean, it was a hell of an experience. I mean, and you know this too, like when you and I pitch to a publisher, you know, you schlep out to New York, you get in a taxi, you go to their office, you like show up, you like, you're like, you know, here's my idea. You know, you try to sell it to them and you get maybe 10 minutes at most, 15, and then you hop back in a taxi and you like go to another office and it's, we basically just post it up in a penthouse in a hotel and they just shuttled all these publishers through. No way.

They came to you guys.

They came to us.

Whatever happens.

We had multiple rounds of bidding. So I think like 23 publishers bid on it the first round, and then we took the top six and went to the second round. So it was just surreal. I mean, the whole time I was just like enjoying the ride. This is so much fun.

No pressure on you.

Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna.

Be writing it, but- He's the guy, yeah.

Like, he'll sell it. He'll sell the shit out of it.

So- what were the lessons you learned from an author perspective on how to approach publishers differently. Whether you're a big star like Will Smith or not, how could you take that lesson going into your next pitch alone?

So actually, one of the cool things about hanging out with Will.

Is.

It'S like I'm learning a lot from him too along the way. And a lot of it's not stuff that's gonna be in the book. A lot of it's just kind of business sense type things. He's been in the entertainment biz since he was 17. And he's been at the top of music, TV, film, everything. And so I remember one time he was telling me, he said that.

After.

They did Bad Boys or in the early 90s when he was like Bad Boys was like his for everybody remembers Independence Day, but Bad Boys was actually like his first feature film that like kind of blew up. And he said that after they did Bad Boys, him and Martin Lawrence, he said that the studios were really unsure if they could, if it would sell well internationally. And so Will went to the studio and he was like, hey man, any country you want me to go to, like, I'm in. Let me know. And so the studio started sending him you know, to London, to Germany, to Russia, to South Africa, and he'd do every trip. You know, he'd hop on the plane, fly to London, do a premiere, do like 20 interviews, hop back on the jet, fly back to LA. And he'd do that on the weekends while filming Fresh Prince. And he said that Martin Lawrence didn't want to do the traveling. And then he said that, What he noticed when it came time to do the next movie, he start, like, studios started giving him much nicer offers and giving him a lot more attention. And he said that what he learned is he said that it's being an actor, the job isn't the movie. He said the movie is only half of your job as an actor. The other half is you got to go out and sell it to people. And I really took that to heart. 'Cause it's a perfect, it's the same way in publishing. As an author. Totally. And there's so many authors out there who spend two years on their book and then they're like, well, okay, I'll post it on Twitter, but why should I have to do anything? You guys should go do it. And so my approach, especially this time around, is this is part of the job. And even with Subtle Art, I kind of griped and complained a little bit. It's like, man, I'm doing all these podcasts and what the hell is my publisher doing? And it's like, what is this School of Greatness show? who's this Lewis guy? God.

But now you're doing this tour.

Yeah, I'm doing a tour. I'm doing, and it's my attitude this time around has completely changed. It's like, this is part of the job. This is part of why they're paying me.

Yeah.

You know? So, like, I flew out here, I flew out here to LA on my own dime. I'm doing, like, seven podcasts and YouTube shows, you know, on my own. I'm not asking for anything. I'm not like, I'm not sitting around, you know, demanding more attention and sure, you know, it's like, no, this is part of the job. So luckily you got lots of dimes saved up.

You can get out here on your own dime. I could do it for the LA trips.

Yeah. So that's interesting.

Yeah. I've heard him talk about that before where he's, like, known for being one of the people that stays the longest on, like, the. Yeah, the red carpet. Red carpets. Like him and Tom Cruise would, like, have battles to see who could stay the longest to sign the most autographs, take most photos and he would always lose, I guess, in Tom Cruise or something.

Yeah, yeah.

He would stay there for 24 hours just like taking photos until he saw Will Smith leave. That's cool. So that's one big lesson. What other lesson have you learned from him so far? Because now you spent like 30 hours with him, I think you said.

Yeah, I've done a number of trips with him. There's a lot of little life things. You know, he told me it was funny because this fall, so when I was finishing my book that's coming out next week, when I was finishing Everything Was Fucked, I actually, so let me back up for a second. So this fall, he, typical Will style, just, I got an email from his manager saying, hey, you want to go, you want to do a trip with Will next week? And I'm like, yeah, of course, where are we going? And she's like, India. and then Dubai. And oh, and he's gonna race like F1 cars. And I was like, shit, okay. Like, I'm in, all right. So I end up on like five days notice, I end up on this two-week trip with Will to India and Dubai. And so I'm doing Will's book. I'm finishing my book. I'm doing this project for Audible. I'm doing like an Audible original. And I'm running a website with 2 million readers. And I'm in the middle of India with Will, and I'm jet lagged out of my mind. And so there was a few months this fall where I was probably the most stressed I've been since I started my business. Just not sleeping, constant anxiety, just working insane hours. And so I'm like this huge ball of stress and I get on this plane and I'm in the middle of India with Will.

Private jet?

Yeah, well once you get there, it's private jets. So I'm sitting there on the jet with Will.

So stressed out on the jet with Will. Yeah, yeah. My life is so hard.

But like, I'm sitting there with Will and we were talking about his career in the 90s. So he would film Fresh Prince during the week. fly somewhere to do some promotional thing on the weekends. And then during breaks in between the seasons is when he would film his next movie. So, I mean, he's just basically going seven days a week. Oh, and he's like recording music, Big Willie Style, and the soundtrack, the Men in Black, and like all this stuff. So I asked him, I kind of told him the situation I was in. And I asked him, I'm like, I told him, I said, I feel like I'm in kind of like one of those situations where I've got like movie, TV show, and album going on at the same time. Except for me, it's book, book, audiobook, all at the same time. And I was like, how the hell do you do it? And he just kind of laughed and he's like, you know what the trick is? I said, what? He's like, what you do is you just bite off more than you can chew. He said, agree to do more than you think is possible. and then you just go do it. And it sounds so simple, but it was like one of those moments where just like a switch clicked in my brain and I'm like, wow, that's crazy.

Because.

We all know we're capable of doing so much more than we actually do. But the only way you can really tap into that is to just over commit. Just over commit yourself and you find a way. You just find a way to do it. And so he's like, yeah, man, Bite off more than you can chew and start chewing it.

Yeah, you probably eliminate a lot of the downtime that wastes time too. You're not playing video games for three hours a day.

No.

You're not watching TV. You're just focused.

Yeah, it's purely out of necessity. It's just pure, like on that India trip, I was up at, I mean I was jet lagged, but I was up at 4:00 a.m. writing my book for six hours. before meeting up with him and then spending the afternoon with him. And then when I would go back to my hotel at night, my team in the US was waking up. So I would check in with them on the website and then I'd go to bed. And then I'd wake up at 4, crank up my book for six hours, go meet up with Will, work with him for a few hours, go back to the hotel, check in with my team. And I did that the entire trip. If you had asked me, like if I was capable of doing that two years ago, I would have been like, are you insane? Like that's absolutely, but it's just, I see when I'm with him, I see him do it, you know? Like he'll go film all day and then he'll come back to the house and meet with his social media team and plan videos for that month until like 10 o'clock and then he'll go to bed and he'll be up at five, working out. And it's like that's just, he's been doing that for 30 years.

It's a machine, man.

For 30 years.

What about someone who's listening who says, well, it doesn't sound like a very balanced life. And that's gonna create overwhelm and burnout and stress that is gonna, you know, ruin everything for me.

I think there's, I think that's a really good point. And it's, I think what, 'cause I've had periods in my life where I have worked kind of insane 16-hour days or whatever, and it's just exhausting and stressful and everything else in my life kind of falls apart. Whereas with him, he somehow does it like gracefully. And I think-- He's got a family.

He'S married, he's got-- yeah.

And I think part of like-- He told me something really cool. And it's funny because again, it's advice that you hear a lot, but it's-- Just the way he put it was very powerful. So when you hear people talk about delegation, they're like, oh yeah, you should, anything that you're not great at, you should like hire somebody who is. And it's like, that's fine. He said the same thing, but he talked about it in like a moral way. Like he basically said, he's like, if I'm doing something, he's like, I'm world class. at a couple things. Yeah. And so if I'm doing things...

Anything else?

If I'm doing anything else, then I am ethically, like, is an ethical problem.

It's like hurting the world, essentially.

Exactly, he's depriving the world of the thing that he's world class at. And he said, if I'm not hiring somebody who's world class at the thing I'm bad at, I'm doing the world a disservice by them not doing what they're world class.

That is powerful.

I was like, God damn, dude. Yeah, you're right. I'm like, yeah, you're right.

Yeah.

Wow, man. What do you think his greatest challenge is?

Oh, God. Being.

Being a superstar that everyone loves, that he gets opportunities left and right. What do you see as, like, his biggest struggle or a way for him to get to the next level, seeing it from the outside?

Well, I think. I think the challenge for for him lately is, and this ties in a lot to what we were talking about with my last book, his biggest challenge the last 10 years has been redefining what the next level is.

Reinventing himself.

Yeah, because it's for years and years and years it was always bigger movie, next movie, bigger movie. And he hit a point where he was like, I need to change my metric for what the next level is. And that's how this book came about. like this is why we're writing the book is he wants to share that process, you know, of like, look, I went out and conquered the world, achieved all these things, but like at the end of the day, this is how I kind of like, these were my struggles and how I had to kind of reorient my life in my later years. So it's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be his whole life, all the nitty gritty details, a lot of stuff he hasn't talked about before, and then about kind of how his whole philosophy and mindset has changed the last six or seven years.

Wow, that's cool. If you could give him one piece of advice, what would it be? That would better his life.

Ooh.

If he said to you, Mark, give me the piece of advice that you think I need. You've seen me for the last year now. You've seen my team, you've seen my delegation process, you've seen me on flights, you've seen me late night, you see me have a lot of fun and conquer the world. What piece of advice would you have for me to get to the next level?

I don't know, man. I'm gonna have to pass on that one.

No advice?

You'll have to wait. Okay, wait for the book.

We'll wait, we'll wait for the book.

It's not that I don't have anything, I would say, but I think it's personal enough and the book's not out.

Sure.

That I would hold.

When the book's out and then we'll see the advice.

Yeah.

And so this book, Everything is Fucked, a book about hope. Who is this really for? Who needs this right now? And why should they get it right now?

So.

The people I wrote the book for, it's, there are two things kind of going on in our culture today. One is what we mentioned, which is the increases in depression, anxiety, suicide, drug overdoses, like all those things are on the rise. And it's, I think there's a real lack of, you know, our culture's approach to those issues is, you know, either just medicate it or, you know, oh, go see a therapist somewhere. You know, like, we don't want to deal with it. Like, it's just, it's not talked about not, not only, like, depression itself, but why these things are becoming more prevalent. What is it about our culture? Is it the technology? Is it social media? Is it, you know, political issues? Like, what is going on? Is that's causing these, these demographic things to start happening. And then the second one is why, why does it seem like we, why do we all have, seemingly have the feeling that the world is going to hell, even though it's not like what, like if you, I, you and I both have to be on social media. I know when you get on, it's like you see the same things I do and everybody else does. Like you, you some days I get on Twitter and you would think that like the fucking apocalypse is upon us, you know? And it's just people freaking out about this or that and they freak out and they argue and they bicker and they, you know, try to tarnish each other and try to ruin each other's reputations and then the next day it's something else. And so the book is also a look at how, you know, really What is it about the way we're getting information that causes these perceptions? You know, that causes, what is it about the internet and the technology that has changed our relationship with our culture so much so that we're like, the feeling is that we're always adversarial.

Yeah.

And I think one part, you know, one component, everybody likes to either blame the media or they, everybody likes to blame social media or everybody likes to blame, you know, like, Facebook or Trump or whoever and it's, I think there's something underlying all of them. There's like something more fundamental. I think those are all effects of like a more singular cause. So yeah, it's deep stuff and it's hopefully it's, you know, my goal with it is to just help people Chill.

Out a little bit. Relax a little bit. Like things like- Well, find perspective too probably.

Find perspective because I think really the only way we're gonna get through this is by really understanding how our relationship to these technologies affects us emotionally. And it's nobody's fault. It's like it's just Our brains evolved a certain way and that these technologies they react they cause reactions that we aren't even aware of.

Yeah, I just had Cal Newport on recently.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

He writes about the deep work and essentially digital minimalism. Yeah, he's not on social media at all. Yeah, and his thesis is you know social media is essentially ruining us. Yeah, and the addictive nature of it keeps us trapped to feel anxiety, to feel stress, to feel comparison, to feel overwhelmed. And it's hard to do meaningful, fulfilling work in our lives when we're constantly in that loop of feeling trapped and addicted.

Absolutely. And one thing I talk about in the book is that I really think technology for how great it is, it is develop to take advantage of our psychological flaws rather than compensate for them. So it's like our brains just don't, we're irrational creatures, we've got all sorts of biases and prejudices and all this stuff. And instead of developing technology that like helps us get over those flaws, the technology taps into them because it makes it more profitable. So it's it's a look at how that happens why that happens and you know how can we kind of armor ourselves to To keep it together.

It's powerful man. Yeah the book you guys can get the book right now. It's all about hope if you need hope in your life everything is fucked It's a book about hope Exciting times man. You got a lot going on. It's really cool to hear the stories and I'm excited to hear more about a how this book, the results of this book, and how you feel in six months to a year from this, your next project with Will Smith, and everything else you have coming out after that. So I'm excited to hear about all this, man. Final two questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you again, Mark, for showing up. Because some people, when they hit the top, they can just stop and take it easy, and play Zelda for five years. So you did that for a little bit. Yeah. But now you're showing back up in a better way and you're challenging yourself physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, everything to go beyond where you're at right now in a different way. Maybe it's not hitting the same measure of success but going deeper. Maybe it's trying a different thing that you're not comfortable with. And I really acknowledge that for you, man, because it could be super easy to just say, I want to ride.

This for the next five, 10 years. And I want to, Make sure the audience knows. Zelda's a really good game. Yeah. You know, I'm not ripping on Zelda.

It's challenging.

Yeah.

I'm not ripping on Zelda, but yeah, it's sitting on that couch, man. It's, it's, it, like, and again, this is, this is what kind of infused the new book is like, I, my big discovery after Subtle Art is like, I'm not happy without challenge in my life. When you remove all the challenge.

It.

Just, I break down.

I think most of us are not happy without a challenge. If we're just sitting on a beach every single day, it gets like tiring, it gets boring. I mean, sure, maybe it's nice for a few months if you've been working your butt off for your whole life, but it's like we find fulfillment in the service of others, the challenges we face and overcome, we don't find fulfillment from just laying in a hammock 24/7.

Yeah, absolutely.

Having everything handed to us.

And it's funny because you gotta learn that lesson over and over again. It's, you know, you, you, our brain just keeps tricking you. It's like, whoa. Yeah, that's true. But if you do this one thing, then it's gonna be great, you know? And it's like, no, it, it's never, it's never done.

I think it's important to make sure you give your body and your mind time to rest and recover into, you know, to be on the beach for a week or two or whatever it may be to you, to reflect, to have that off season to recharge, but. That shouldn't be the norm. That shouldn't be every single day. This is called the Three Truths. You answered it last time, but I want to see if you have different truths. I'm not even sure if you remember what your answer is.

I don't. Yeah, I don't.

So now that a year and a half has passed and you've done so many new things and you've learned new things in your life, imagine this is the last day of your life, 100 something years from now, and you pick the day and you've accomplished everything. Yeah. You achieve everything you want.

Yeah.

You reinvent every year, you have an amazing life.

Sure.

But it's your last day and you've got to, you've got to go. And all of your work has to go with you. So no one has access to your written word anymore.

Yeah.

But you get to leave people with the message, three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in your life.

Okay.

And this would be the thing that people have to remember you by. Three Lessons or Three Truths by Mark Manson. What would you say? And I'm gonna look back to see what they were last time, but...

I always, man, you always throw like the bomb. Most difficult philosophical questions as if you're like, so what do you wanna have for lunch? Yeah, exactly.

Three truths for what's coming up for you now from everything you've learned, you know?

I think I would say, you know, I'll say the three truths that are like most salient for me today. that I've learned recently or felt very intensely recently. One is definitely that one that I said that I need some stress to be happy. It's funny because my 2017 I didn't do a damn thing. Well, I did some things, but I sat around a lot and made a bunch of money. And then 2018 I was working stress out of my mind and if I had to do one of those two years over again, I'd do 2018. like no question, totally do it again. And that was a big realization that it's like for whatever reason, like I, some stress and anxiety makes me happy, like makes me feel good. So that'd be one. Two, I would say and again, this might be salient just because we only because we just talked about it. I would say that there's no actual end point. to any of this. There's no one goal that you're gonna be like, awesome, great career.

I'm done.

Yeah, I'm done. Like there's no, you know, it's probably the same thing with kids or family or like there's just the way that we are constructed psychologically is such that everything we're always mildly dissatisfied. And that's by design and that's what's gotten, you know, that's what's created civilization in the world. And it's, it's, I think it's just important to hold that in our mind and be realistic about it, you know? It's, it's, don't, like, don't delude yourself that if you just had this one thing, if you could just go, you know, live on an island or if you could just get this car or whatever, that everything's gonna be great. It's not. It's not. Third one, third truth. Oh my God. It's so hard, man. This is why I write books.

I know.

So I can spend a long time explaining third truth. I think ultimately what matters most is just people. is the connections you make and how connected you feel with others. And so any sort of analysis you do in your head in terms of decision making, I think people tend to underestimate human connection and overestimate material success and big numbers and stuff like that. And so whenever you're doing that analysis, you know, Inflate the human connection number a little bit and deflate the material value a little bit.

That's cool, man. I like it.

I'll go with that.

I like it, man. The new book, you guys can get it now. Everything is Fucked, a book about hope. Get one for yourself and a few friends.

Come see me on tour.

Come see you on tour, markmanson.net, have all the events, I'm assuming, the books, everything that you want to all the articles, lots of amazing articles there. You're more on social media now, before you weren't really. You post like once every three months, so now you're more on social media, which is great. So people make sure you share out, tag him when you get the book, let him know that you're getting the book. When you're listening to this interview, make sure you tag Mark as well.

Anything else we need to know?

I think that's it. That's it. Okay, final question.

What's your definition of greatness?

Oh man. See if it's changed.

My definition of greatness, I think it's.

Just.

Showing up 100% for whatever you value, whatever you care about. Really just not leaving anything on the table. Whether you want to just be the best mom the world has ever seen or the best preschool teacher or lawnmower man, whatever the hell you're doing, you know, it's like if that's what you're doing and you're showing up fully, putting everything into it and getting better at it consistently, like that's what matters.

Mark Manson, my man. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you, man.