That Relationship WON'T LAST! - The Common Mistakes That SABOTAGE LOVE | Mel Robbins & Lewis Howes
Mel Robbins and Lewis Howes teach a daily ritual: high-five yourself in the mirror while brushing your teeth, using your non-dominant hand to trigger your prefrontal cortex. Research shows silent high-fives motivate children better than praise, and NBA teams that touch boost performance. The practice rewires negative self-talk rooted in childhood trauma.
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The wrong relationship magnifies your insecurity. At the heart of all your interpersonal issues with anybody else is your own inability to...
I think you gotta have a dream.
The School of Greatness.
Really?
Yeah.
Please welcome, Lewis Howes.
What are three things that you would tell, you know, the male of 26 years ago before getting married? To set yourself up, if you could say three things that you wish you could have done, not wish you had come differently, but if you could just coach yourself then, and say, you know what? There's going to be amazing times, there's going to be challenges. But if you could work on these three things now, it'll really minimize a lot of stress or heartache or confusion or frustration that might occur in those 26 years. What would those three things be in order to have just more harmony consistently?
Wow.
Knowing that there's going to be challenges and there's no perfect marriage or relationship.
Oh, God, no.
But what would be the three things to create more harmony Moving forward.
Number one, if you can afford it.
Yeah.
What therapy?
Get into therapy now as a couple. And I'll come back to that. The second thing is work on your own. Because the secret to a happy relationship is you being happy and the person that you're with being a happy person. That's like, like somebody once said to me, you want to know the secret to a happy marriage, Mel? I said, what is it? He said, marry somebody who's happy.
So true. Otherwise, you're always trying to coach someone to become happy.
Correct. And so I feel like therapy is incredible because a lot of successful relationships And I would put Chris and I in this category. A lot of successful relationships that go the distance, go the distance because you're good at the logistics. You're good at the doing. And if you are together for a long time, what's gonna happen is you're gonna go through multiple chapters together and you're gonna go through all different phases of growth together. and if you have pets or you have children or you have a lot of family around, you're also going to have other individuals that are part of your relationship. And if you go the distance, there's a lot going on, especially when you add kids, especially when you add pets, especially when you add two different careers, right? Or your own personal growth. And so Chris and I are extraordinary at launching a business, building or renovating a house, figuring out the school calendar, and when people and the logistics and getting the dog to the vet and making sure that this happens and all of that stuff that is an essential part of being together, the doing of life. But what happens over time, if you don't have rituals that help you grow together or help you unpack the small that you bury is that you find yourself sequestered from one another emotionally.
Kind of just going through the motions.
Yeah, and I wouldn't even call it roommates. I think it's something deeper. I think in the beginning of your relationship, there's this like tunnel of intimacy where you're sharing everything and literally like going to the grocery store together is the hottest date on the planet, right? 'cause the energy, the vitality, the electricity, all that stuff is flying. And then there's this next phase, we're getting to know somebody emotionally is intoxicating. What are they thinking and what's their background and what are all the things they're not talking about and kind of getting in that level. But then you start building a life and doing life and you no longer hit the pause button to truly find out What is this person thinking about? What have they not said? And so I think therapy, number one, or moments to grow together. Because Chris and I used to take classes together. We used to go on these adventure trips together. And then life got very, very busy and with two businesses and kids and all this. You don't slow down long enough. And it's not even really about date night. Date night is a construct. so that you slow down and you come out of your emotional corners and you connect at a deeper level. And so that is what therapy has provided for Chris and I. The second thing was the happiness.
Working on your own happiness.
Because if you're not a happy person, the easiest person to attack is your intimate partner.
It's the person you love the most.
Correct. Think about when you're a kid. you have to hold your together at school. You have to like look good for your friends. You have to like stick it out at that job that you had as a teenager that you couldn't stand. But when you come home, you can you snap at your mom. You might be rude to your dad. You ignore your brothers and sisters. You let it all hang out with them. And we do that with our intimate partners. And so if you're not taking care of your own happiness, you're gonna vomit your baggage at the person who loves you most. So that's it. And then The third thing is.
And.
I'm absolutely guilty of that. I think like honestly, people have been asking me a lot about just my marriage because I've been in, I've been married for 26 years. Like, how do you go the distance? How do you go the distance? I feel that one of the things that I also got wrong is I didn't remind myself enough what a kind and caring person Chris is. And that I, you know, I am guilty of also, like, attacking Chris when I've been really unhappy. And, you know, I will unpack a lot of this stuff because, you know, Chris and I have been in, like, intense therapy for the last intense, meaning, It's been intensely awesome.
Yeah.
But it's profound how much my coping mechanism with stress was the exact opposite of Chris's. So when I feel stressed out or anxious, Louis, I go into hyperdrive. I like, go, go, go, go, go, because I feel safer when I'm busy. Okay? My husband goes into the corner and thinks. And what ends up happening over time is your relationships are an opportunity.
To.
Truly heal the that doesn't work if you're willing to work together on it. And so what happened over time for us is The more I became successful, the more I did, the more I was solving problems and taking care of this in 15 steps ahead, the more it reinforced to Chris, well, she doesn't need me. And if I were to make the dinner reservation, she's going to just probably have made a different one anyway. And meanwhile, I'm over here in my emotional corner going, why is nobody planning a birthday party for me? Why am I the one that's always like doing everything? When is somebody else going to come? And Chris is over here going, I'm not needed.
Yeah, like I've tried, but then you just, you say you don't want it or you change the plans or so after a while, it's like, why am I going to try to do anything?
Correct. And here's where we make a major mistake. We have a breakdown that's at the surface level. So I'll give you an example. This is a really dumb example, but I think every couple might be able to relate to this. So, you know how you get a lot of cardboard boxes?
Yes.
From Amazon.
Boxes and boxes.
Amazon boxes that arrive at your house or your apartment. Everybody now orders stuff online. So, I get boxes. I unpack the boxes. And then I have this little thing where I'm like, I might need to ship it back.
So I don't- you- keep the box?
Yep. By the door.
I gotta throw it away right away.
Well, Chris does too. And he also does not want the box. to go into the garage. We need to slice it down and flatten it.
Recycle it or get rid of it.
Yes, yes. But you have to flatten it for the garbage folks up in southern Vermont to pick it up. Gotcha. So I would make a Jenga puzzle right at the top, like right by the door of the garage. And when Chris would walk in, because he's asked me several times, can you please just freaking slice and flatten the boxes and take it out to the recycling? That's where it goes. And I have this intention that, okay, I'll do that tomorrow because after I look at this stuff, I might ship it back and I might need the box. And then the truth is, I hate flattening boxes. I don't want to flatten boxes.
Sure.
And so I don't do it. And every time Chris sees the Jenga puzzle of boxes, he silently feels like I think he's my maid. At a surface level, and this is what everybody does, at a surface level, we argue about the boxes. At a deeper level that's not getting resolved is the fact that my partner has asked me to do something, but he's asked me to do something at sort of a physical surface level. He has not said to me, When I see that, Mel, It actually triggers something from my childhood. My parents were never home. Nobody came to my games. I was a latchkey kid. When I would walk in that door hoping somebody was home and I opened up the door and there was nobody there, I felt like my needs did not matter. And when I see the boxes stacked and I've asked you twice to do that, and you still don't do it. It's retriggering that. And over the course of his childhood, it didn't matter what he said. The behavior of the adults didn't change. And so we step into these relationships with people, with friends, and with, you know, your lover, and it becomes literally a magnifier of the things you have not resolved. And so Chris, of course, picked somebody like me, who is like his father, super busy, very successful, you know, has a very dominant kind of domineering, fun, lovely, like likable, but just like driven. And Chris feels like that invisible kid deep down in many ways. And me, I'm like the same way. Like I picked somebody to marry that's like my dad, who is very quiet, who I wish who would see more of me, who was, you know, amazing person. But, you know, my mom was the kind of the big personality in the house. And, you know, I sought attention from my dad, but he was the quiet one. And so we are now in this marriage where if you don't do the deeper work, those patterns that make you miserable become even more solidified and you become emotionally distant. And so I would tell me, back to your original question 20 minutes ago.
Yes.
I would tell myself, I would remind myself that Chris is a really kind person who just wants to be loved. Like take care of him. Listen to him. Slow down a little bit. That's what I would say.
That's cool.
Yeah.
Was that number three?
I don't know. I think so. Yeah, it was literally like find these moments to step on the break and to grow or connect together at an emotional level. And that can be done through a class. It can be done through a hike. I'll give you another thing that we do that I absolutely love. Second thing is really happiness and working on your own happiness is super important. Really, really, really important. We spend too much time trying to fix other people. And when you focus on doing the work to make yourself happy, That's the answer in my opinion, because you then bring a happy person into a relationship. And then the third thing is to really remind yourself that at our core, everybody is a kind person that wants to be loved. I believe.
Do you think love alone is enough to keep a relationship or a marriage going?
If You, love alone is enough, yes, if you operate as if love is a verb. So, love is not a feeling, it's an action. And it needs to be demonstrated, it needs to be communicated, and it's more than your felt experience. And it's interesting because both of our daughters who are in their 20s, are now in, you know, kind of committed relationships, which is a whole different episode that you should do because trying to understand, okay, wait, you're intimate, but you're not exclusive. Okay, got it. Now you're exclusive. Okay, got it. Oh, you met the parents and you hang out all the time, but you're not dating. Like, what does that mean? And so kind of getting the vernacular down has been really interesting. Yeah. But what's really interesting about it for me is I've recently met both of their partners. They're like, Did you like him? And I said, It's actually not about him at all. I like who you are.
How do you feel with them?
Correct. Like as your parent, as your mom, I see this person amplify the best parts of you. And what's interesting is I think you don't know what it feels like to be loved in the way that you need to be loved until it happens. There's a huge mismatch that happens for all of us. And I think a lot of us experience that mismatch with parents. Your parents may be amazing people, but there's just this disconnect because maybe your dad loves football, but you like theater. or your mom loves classical music, but you like alt rock and you feel like, you know, or maybe your parents are sort of not that loving, not that, like, affectionate, not that complimentary. They're more of a kind of tough love generation. And so as a kid, you feel this mismatch, right? Where you don't feel safe, you don't feel like you're getting the emotional support that you need. There's this sense of being separate and the sense of yearning for attention and like the kind of emotional language and support that you need, but you're not getting it. And that's certainly the case if you've had a childhood where a parent was absent or abandoned you, or there's abuse or mental illness, or there's chaos or whatever. That is definitely a mismatch. But in most cases, There's a mismatch period. I mean, if you've watched Lewis's show or listened to, you know, the School of Greatness, you've heard all about the five love languages. We all give and receive love in different ways. And so you could have a parent that loves you with everything that they have, but they only have this cup worth of love to give. And you need the size of this table. That's a mismatch.
Right.
That'S a mismatch. You might be somebody who needed your parents to praise you and they weren't that type of person. That's a mismatch. And so that creates this experience of separation. It also creates this deep longing to be seen. And so you start chasing love and you start chasing people, right? And so I feel that a lot of us, because of our experience as a kid, of not actually getting a complete secure, fully seen, fully, because who on earth could do that? There are moments, dude, I'm a complete mismatch for my three kids. Complete mismatch.
Because they need love in different ways.
Of course, at different times.
Yes.
And maybe I was, or I said it the wrong way, or whatever, or I gave them advice instead of listening, or I corrected them instead of affirming what they were doing. You know what I'm saying? And so that's a mismatch. It creates this feeling of being separate from a person that you wanna feel deeply connected to. And so, in all of our love relationships, so many of us stay in relationships that are complete mismatches. And I think most relationships are, unless you're willing to do the deeper work.
Why do you think people stay in relationships that are not a good match?
Because it feels familiar. Two reasons. You're either subconsciously repeating a pattern from childhood, Right? So it's not surprising that Chris would be attracted to a woman that's very driven. Because his experience of love came from his parents.
And you were attracted to him.
Yes. Based on your experience of love. My dad was a quiet guy, is a quiet guy, and is, you know, very adoring of my mom. and, but very quiet. And so that's who I was drawn toward. You are drawn toward the parent. This is my personal theory. You're drawn most toward the parent whose attention and affection you were chasing and approval you're chasing. And so I think a lot of, because a lot of people are like, why would you stay in an abusive relationship? Well, because your first experience of love had abuse in it.
Right.
And so all the chemicals and neurons, and I'm sure there's science around this. I'm sure tons of it. I'm sure Dr. Dispenza probably talks about this. It just is a match for what you experienced. It's sort of like what you're familiar with.
Yeah, why do you speak English, Louis?
That's what I learned growing up. Correct, yeah.
Same thing, same thing. It's easy, it's comfortable.
Well, not only that, your brain recognizes it. So your brain, like your body, the sensation of whatever love is supposed to be is a match from experiences in childhood.
Yes.
And so we're not even really choosing it. I think most of us are just unconscious to these patterns.
Yeah.
I've got a seven part theory to healthy conscious love.
Okay, tell me.
And now this is only, you know, this is after 15-20 years of relationships that didn't work because of me being the common denominator of who I chose in certain situations and realizing like, okay, if I want to really experience something beautiful and healthy and conscious and thriving, then I must do things differently myself. I must become a new person and attract a better match.
Yeah.
That works for me.
Yeah.
So seven keys to conscious love and and I'm just over a year of a healthy relationship, right? So I get it, everyone listening or watching, I don't have kids, I'm not married yet, all these different things that could cause more friction in the future potentially. But I think starting the relationship in this way has been really powerful.
Tell me, dude, you're like, come on.
Give me the seven keys.
Here are my seven keys. Let me know if there's any holes here. the first step is, like you said, healing yourself first, working on the healing journey yourself and don't be willing to go so deep to get to a place where no memory makes you triggered anymore. Every wound from the past, from the first memory until now, and re-watching the stories and looking at the stories that we tell ourselves and then learning to tell different stories, healing, forgiving, acceptance, all that stuff to have wholeness right now.
Yeah.
Becoming whole before you enter a relationship. That's step one. That may take time. Step two is, I really believe the love language match is a thing. 'Cause everyone that I had chosen to date before, we didn't match up on love languages.
So there's a mismatch thing.
Did we have a mismatch?
Because I saw you doing like this.
We had a chemical match. There was like some type of chemicals. There was like this connection or whatever feeling. But it wasn't a good life match, right? And so it tricked me because it was like there was this attraction, but it wasn't healthy after a few months, right? So making sure that our love languages line up with me and Martha, all five are in the same order. So I don't have to do something that I normally don't do to let someone feel loved by me.
See, now this is interesting.
And so it makes it more effortless. It doesn't mean it's not intentional and I still have to show up in a big way. But I do things naturally that makes her feel loved.
That's beautiful.
So it's just a little bit easier.
We were a mismatch, Chris and I. Because he is acts of service, and here I am stacking the boxes. Yeah. Right? I'm like words of affirmation.
And he's quiet.
Yes.
And you're like, ah, yes. I hear you.
And we're arguing about this stuff when really, if you're gonna close the gap on a mismatch.
Yeah.
And I love the wholeness. Let me add something to this. If you're willing, both of you, your relationship can be the container for healing.
Absolutely.
And that is the most beautiful aspect of a relationship.
If you haven't gotten whole yet, but you're already in a relationship, then find wholeness throughout it. But if you're single, I think do some healing work before you enter the next relationship.
Yes.
So that's step one and two. Step three, four and five is values, vision and lifestyle. When we first started dating after a couple of months, both of us were so honest about what are our values, what is our vision, what is our lifestyle?
How did you figure out your values? Because that's actually a hard question.
We went to, I took her to Sedona for a weekend. and I took her to a vortex.
Have you been to Sedona? You mean like to like the mirror ball or something?
There's like a different like rock shapes.
Leelines, right? The Leelines vortex. Where is that? In Sedona Valley. Okay, yeah, yeah.
They're in the valley that I live in too, dude. Are they? Yeah, exactly. So we went there to like one of these vortex, like rock formations. We climbed up top. Okay. I played music and I said, we're gonna do an exercise together. And we both had a different notebook and I said, I want you to take five minutes okay. I played some, you know, heart opening music, and I said, I want you to make a list of the things that are most important to you, the values in your life, the things that are really important to you. And, you know, this is going to be a determining factor of whether we really move forward in our lives.
Really?
After a couple months of us.
Dude, you're intense.
I'm, you know, when you go through enough pain and suffering of choosing poorly, you know, not these people were bad people. I chose what didn't work for me.
Yep.
And so it caused suffering inside of me.
Yeah.
Because I kept trying to force things to work that weren't the right fit. I love it. So I was just like, I don't want to fricking repeat this pattern.
Yeah. Right.
The same pattern.
So I got to do different things.
I got to become different and do different things.
Yes.
I love this. So we did an exercise. She wrote her list. Then I did 5 minutes of my own separate. I didn't see what she wrote. And I said, okay, let's share. And thankfully, you know, there was alignment on pretty much everything. you know, 80% of the things we wrote down were like the exact same words. And then the extra 20% I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And cool, do what you want to do there. And that's fine. I have nothing against these things. So we got clear on our values and our vision. What is our vision for a relationship in the future? What do we both want to create as a relationship together? Personal values and then shared vision in the relationship. We did that. And then lifestyle was the was the next thing. This is, I think, huge because... How.
Do you define lifestyle?
Lifestyle for me is like, you know, I travel, I like to travel, I speak at events, I interview people, I'm an extrovert, I like to be around people, I like to, if we go out and someone says hi, I like to ask people questions and engage with people. I'm gonna be very driven, I'm not gonna be home at five every night, it's not my lifestyle, I'm an entrepreneur, this is, I work out, my health is important to me. So I'm going to be doing activities, I'm going to be doing adventures. This is my lifestyle. And if someone, I believe if someone has a different lifestyle, they just want to be home all day, they're introverts and you're the opposite, there's going to be some type of disconnect match. So it doesn't have to be like same energy, but in alignment, right? Close to similar energies so that we can do shared things together and are accepted in that place. So we had we got clear in our life and I know she's an actress, right? So I had to be clear She's gonna be doing intimate scenes with potentially men in the future like she's done in the past on screen, right? Am I okay with her kissing someone on screen? So I had to be like, okay, does that work for me? Yeah, whether she does it or not like I don't know but it may happen and I need to know that this is a part of her lifestyle right as her profession right and Am I good with that? Does that work for me? Does her lifestyle work for me? Because if I'm changing some, if I'm not happy with someone's lifestyle and I'm trying to change them, then that doesn't work either. Someone's gonna resent that if you're trying to change their lifestyle. So that was that part. And then the next thing, the sixth thing, once we got clear on those five things, being in total acceptance of who that person is before choosing to be with them. So total acceptance. Okay, this is your values. This is your vision. This is your lifestyle. this is your love language. You've already done your healing journey. Now, the person in front of me as you are, not the potential for who you are, but as you are right now, and if this continues, do I accept this person for all their quirks and idiosyncrasies and faults and amazing things that they do, do I accept them? And so I got clear with her, I was like, I accept you fully after knowing all this information. This was many months. Also, another thing is removing sexual intimacy in the dating experience.
Just be married for 20 years.
Exactly.
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
But removing that in order to get to know someone without the chemical confusion. Because the chemicals.
So, wait, were you guys like not.
Having sex for a while?
No sex for the first three months.
Wait, what?
I spent over 40 days with her. Like, long days. When I tell this to guys, they freak out. They're like, no way, not possible.
Well, I always say that to my daughters.
Wait as long as you can. Because the chemicals will mess with you and think you love this person. And you might have a chemical connection, but doesn't mean this is going to be a good life partner.
Correct.
And so, I'm like, if you actually.
Like the person, don't sleep with them.
Don't sleep with them. And so, accepting who the person is in front of you, saying, knowing that they may never change, do I accept them? not hoping that something changes, but I fully accept. So when I got with her, I said, listen, my intention is to never be angry at you. There's nothing you could do that'll make me upset because I've gotten to know you. Why would I be upset at you if I'm building an intimate relationship with you and I accept you? So when I asked her this last weekend, we were at a wedding two days ago and I said, have I ever been upset with you in over a year? She said, no. and I said, that doesn't mean we don't have challenging conversations. We have uncomfortable, like, that doesn't feel good. And there's some, okay, I gotta work on this. I gotta, can we breathe through the conversation? Maybe is there gonna be a reaction? Do I have some PTSD still? I don't know. There may be some discomfort, but it.
Doesn'T mean I'm gonna get angry.
So, Louis, I think this is... and I have one more thing, but yeah, go ahead. You say you're one more thing. And the last thing is, was a mandatory thing for me. This was a non-negotiable. Okay. And I said, listen, every relationship before this, I've wanted to start the relationship in therapy and no one wanted to.
Do that with me.
And then a year, two years later, we got into therapy because there was too many breakdowns.
And then it ended.
Yeah.
I don't wanna repeat this. I'm not going to repeat this again. So this only works if you're willing to do therapy with me from the get go. And she was like, I'm down. And it's been the best thing starting because anytime there might be a little frustration or a little confusion or miscommunication, Yep. We talk about it in therapy. Oh, okay. That's not what you meant. That's not what I meant. Let's create a new agreement so we both are in alignment moving forward.
Yeah.
So it's just trying to minimize frustration. Well, and also having the objective person, like you're so unconscious to your patterns. I'm thinking cardboard boxes. He's childhood trauma.
There are other ones.
He's not talking to me. I'm childhood trauma. Like it's like all of that gets magnified by cardboard boxes or the s*** you're fighting about on the surface. And so knowing that you have a place to talk about something minimizes the number of times that you like even get upset with each other. But I want to go back to something that you said that I think is the $100 million question.
Give it to me.
Not question. $100 million answer. It was my number three. And I said it in the opposite way. that you said, number six. I said, if I could go back and give myself advice 28 years ago when I met my husband, Chris, what would it be? And the third thing I said is always remind yourself that he is a kind and loving person who just wants to be loved. That's all we all are. Okay? You said, I'm never going to be angry with you. I'm not going to take my anger out on you.
Now listen, I'm not perfect. And maybe one day I get frustrated and I react. I'm not saying that's my intention.
I'm going to quickly clean it up.
And I take responsibility.
Yes.
100% responsibility. So I'm not saying I'm trying to be perfect here.
So what I have learned in the past two years that has been profound for me to be whole and to be able to truly stand in full power, right? And what has been profound in my marriage is that at the heart of all mental health issues for me, at the heart of all your interpersonal issues with anybody else is your own inability to handle uncomfortable feelings.
That's it.
That's it. And I have the just disgusting and awful toxic behavior of expelling my uncomfortable emotions at people. And my inability to tolerate stress or disappointment or frustration or expectations not being met or hurt feelings. feelings that creates this sort of disruption in my body and all of this.
Stuff.
Over the years. Like I would expel it at people. I'd have a terrible tone of voice. I would blame it on my anxiety. And I didn't know any better because I didn't understand that healing actually doesn't start up here. It actually starts in your body and your ability to not only tolerate emotions, but to regulate the way that you feel when you experience emotion. And my husband has the opposite way. He withdraws. When he feels painful things in his body, he withdraws. And so the thing that has changed everything for me, Louis, is truly realizing that, you know, I, the second I started to dig out all the uncomfortable feelings and the that had happened or anything else. And I learned how to sit with it. I learned how to give myself the assurance and the love that maybe I didn't get as a kid, that I didn't experience in other relationships, that I wasn't experiencing that moment. Learning how to do that for myself, learning how to regulate my nervous system, how to tolerate the awful stuff that happens to all of us in life. that has been the biggest game changer in my relationship because I don't get angry at Chris. I think that's massive.
And it's, you know, like you said in the beginning, it's you focusing on your happiness and the other person focusing on their happiness. You don't have to dump on each other when you're unhappy constantly. It doesn't mean you're not going to be unhappy in moments and you're not going to want to talk about with your partner. One of the things that Martha does really well. And I think, you know, we both had 20 years of relationships that didn't end up working because they, we weren't together with those people anymore.
Right?
Right.
So we had lots of lessons from 20 to 30 and then 30 to 40. Yep. For most people, you got married when you were what? 26.
Exactly.
So if I'd got married 10 years ago, I would not be married still. I don't think I would have been able to stay married because I would have been emotionally too much of a wreck and I would have reacted too much and been angry and upset and been like, oh, this doesn't work. I just don't think I would have had the courage to stay married personally. But I got married in my 20s, divorced in two years probably.
Oh, I would have been if I was with another emotional expeller.
Yes.
Like that, like, I credit Chris and his tolerance of me, honestly.
Right, his peace.
For the fact that he is like.
This is not gonna like disrupt my energy.
Exactly. And one of the things that Martha has done so well, I think, because she's learned and done a lot of work on her own as well, She doesn't bring her stuff to me right away. She goes to her sisters first, her mom first, her amazing group of girlfriends first. Whether it might be something she was confused about me or questioning about maybe something I said or whatever, she doesn't react right away to me. She'll kind of let herself talk to other people in the community, friends, girlfriends, but not in a way where it's putting me down or being like, He did this. Talking bad, but more just hey, this is happening. This is what I'm feeling. Let's talk about it. She talks about it with them. She talks about it with her mom, her friends, her sister, and then she'll talk to her therapist about it and unpack. Is it something that she needs to work on in herself that's triggering her that's not even related to me. And then she'll bring it to me if she needs to. She's so good that I really appreciate that because she's just genuinely a happy person, but it's because she's doing the constant work. to process emotions first before reacting and responding based on a trigger.
Yeah.
And I think that is really key if people, if men and women can learn that strategy. What you're talking about is emotional regulation.
Yeah.
Which is not dumping a reaction on someone when you feel, ah, that didn't feel good. Ah, you know, screaming at someone or just reacting.
Well, Louis, I can really see it now because I think we're, most of us are sort of blind to it. because you've been processing emotion like this forever. And how did you learn to do that? Who did you learn to speak English from? You saw it from your parents. Saw it from your parents. And so it becomes a pattern just like speaking English or Spanish or Russian or French became a pattern in your brain. And so in situations where your body senses the same emotion, you mimic the reaction that adults had. Even though you hated the silent treatment that your mother gave you, When she was pissed off about something, you now do it to people. And you don't even realize it.
And then you resent yourself 'cause you're doing the thing that your parents did.
Correct. And it all begins because your body remembers emotional triggers and situations. We're all kind of blind to it. For me, one of the interesting gifts of parenting, especially once my kids became teenagers, is my daughters dump on me. Why? Because they saw me doing it. They saw me get frustrated. They saw me like change my tone of voice. So when either one of them gets stressed about something or they get overwhelmed by something. Oh, no, no, they just like, it's like a vomit on the text chain. And I'm like, this is me.
Yeah, interesting.
Or if we're in a situation and we're out and about, they're great with their friends and they'll turn and snap at me. And it's because, and so then I see it, I'm like, I taught them how to do this. And so I'm grateful that I'm now hopefully going to be the generation breaker and they're aware of it 'cause they immediately apologize so it's faster turnaround. But I can see in my own kids, and this is not something I'm proud of, like what I passed down.
Yeah, but you also passed down a lot of, you know, greatness in them, you know.
Well, yeah, but, you know, who wants to hear about that? Like, let's, like, I, it's way, I think it's important for everybody to understand we all have this. You have a way that you deal with pain, because when you feel disappointed, that is a form of pain. And a lot of us either draw from it or we try to expel it in some way.
Yes.
Or you try to outrun it.
Yeah.
Another thing I was thinking about as you're saying this is kind of like figuring out what your main currency is in a relationship, why you want to have a relationship and your main currency in life. For me, at this season of my life, my main currency is peace. Wanting to create and experience peace within me Mm-. And within my relationship, because the world is going to have challenges and disasters and adversities and my business, there's going to be things already thrown at me in my life. But in my relationship, I want peace. So that was an, and she wants, you know, adventure and exploration and fun and all these things, but she wants peace as well. And so I'm like, okay, cool. I'm cool with all that as long as it's peaceful too, you know?
Well, one of the things that I'm working on right now and I don't have the answer to this. Obviously, I know I married an introvert, right? And Chris is the definition of peace. That's nice. I mean, the guy is a Buddhist meditation instructor.
Incredible.
He is getting a master's in transpersonal psychology right now. He leads men's retreats. He's a yoga instructor. He works for hospice. He's about to get a certificate to be a death doula. Like when you talk about somebody that is deeply spiritual, grounded, introverted person who really connects with people one-on-one, that's my husband. And so the thing that I'm really trying to figure out in this next chapter of our marriage, because I feel like in many ways we are in the beginning of a second marriage because we have done so much work on ourselves. and our kids are now grown up. And there's this opportunity after 28 years to really look at each other with fresh eyes, right?
It's beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
It's huge.
And so I, instead of, there's two things that I wanna share that have really helped me. One is, instead of focusing on the things that I don't like about Chris, right? And there are plenty of things he does not like about me.
Right.
If he could wave a magic wand.
Sure.
I would change this about my wife, Mel. One of the things that I've done is to say, well, what is, like, describe two moments where you just felt that, like, oh, my God, this is my person. And so there are two moments, and there's a great exercise to do. Like, just think, what are those two moments that really encapsulate, like, just that flood of peace and love and safety and connection. And one of them for me with Chris is this. We had just met and we were meeting to go out to dinner after work in New York City. And I was standing in front of that Flatiron Building on 23rd.
I love it.
And I looked up Fifth Ave. And I could see Chris coming. And he was wearing a suit. And he had a messenger bag slung over his shoulders. He had Ray-Bans on and he was rollerblading and weaving in and out of traffic because he grew up as a ski racer and he's like a big adventurer. And he had this huge smile on his face. And it was like strength at play, right? That was what I felt. And then the second thing that came to mind is that when we first got together, we almost, like a couple months after knowing each other, we went out to Utah to meet his best friend who was already married. And Jeff and Darce live in Idaho and like they're basically pioneers. You know, they hunt, they fish, they like live in a log cabin, built their own house. Like they're freaking amazing. And so we went fishing and there was a freak snowstorm that night. And so literally it started snowing as we're cooking dinner, like in June, dude. And so I'm thinking, what have I gotten myself into? So I go back to the tent and I'm rummaging around for a sweatshirt of some kind and I notice my sleeping bag is warm. And I flip the bag open and Chris has filled up one of those Nalgene bottles with hot water he had boiled on campfire and stuck it in there like a hot pocket.
That's pretty nice.
Right?
Very thoughtful.
Yes. And so those are two memories. And so I came up with this.
He's doing an act of service for you. No, because that's what he wants. So he's doing the thing he wants.
No kidding. And meanwhile, I'm ignoring him and telling him he's so amazing. And he can't even hear it because he wants acts of service. And so because his parents were at home, right? Growing up. So he. So, I developed an avatar for the behavior in Chris that I love. I call it my trip leader. Because when we're out hiking, when we're on an adventure, Chris is in charge. He has strength at play. He is a caretaker. He's 55 steps ahead of me. I'm the yard sale in the back. That is when he shines. And so it has been super helpful for me to remind myself that he's a trip leader because it makes me take a step back and it allows him to take a step forward into his power. So that's one thing that I've been working on. And the second thing that I'm working on is this sense, you called it peace, and we've talked about this sort of mismatch and the mismatch being that you might speak different love languages. You might have different values or different lifestyles. Extrovert, introvert. Extrovert, introvert, introvert, all that kind of stuff. That if you are gonna work to close that gap somehow without changing one another, realize that your marriage doesn't have to be everything and it shouldn't be. And so for a while, I started to get nervous because Chris is very introverted. I mean, we live in southern Vermont on the side of a mountain now. And I started to realize, I'm actually sad here all the time. Like a part of me needs this spaciousness, but I have to be around people.
Me too.
I have to be around people.
I need to go walk somewhere.
Yeah.
And grab coffee. Yes. I need to go see people.
Yeah. Do something. Not every day.
Yeah.
And so I started to realize, well, wait a minute. I don't have to turn Chris into, like, the party guy. I can have my friends be that. I can have work be that. Like, I can fill that in different areas instead of being frustrated that this one person isn't filling everything. And so really recognizing, I think, what somebody's capacity is, allowing them to step forward in certain roles, but allowing them to be themselves and step back in others and not punishing them for it.
100%.
That is something that I've been... Chris is better at it than I am. He's way more forgiving. He's way kinder. He's more patient.
Sure. And he's probably creating boundaries just like you are.
Oh, yeah.
Which is key.
Yeah. You know what we've spent the last three therapy sessions talking about?
Boundaries?
Nope.
What?
A new puppy.
Getting a new puppy? One of you wants one, one of you doesn't?
The whole family wants a puppy.
But you don't? Chris doesn't.
He doesn't.
Yes. Because he knows he's gonna have to.
Do all the work.
Yes. He's like, I don't want this. I'm already doing all the work.
Yeah, for the dog that we got.
Two and a half years ago. Exactly. He's already like, two hours of my day is going towards the dog activities while you guys are off working and doing this and running your lives.
Yeah.
It's a lot of big responsibility. Well, because the puppy is an example of bigger themes.
Mm-. He doesn't want to abandon himself to please others.
Yes.
And that's probably what he's done for 26 years. Not with everything. I'm sure it's not like all like that. But this is what I had to learn in the last two years therapy too, is just like, okay, I was always trying to make someone else happy because they were never happy with who I was. They never accepted me, so they always wanted to change me. And so I would change who I am to try to please them. Right. And then after months and months and years, you're like, I'm just abandoning who my real nature is for one human being and dimming my light. I'm not trying to blame anyone here. This is all my responsibility by choosing and staying in relationships. So it's not their fault. It's my responsibility to exit or to know this when it happens and have a conscious conversation calmly and take responsibility and say, no, I'm not going to do this. Are you okay with who I am? But I think creating those boundaries and not abandoning yourself is such a key element to healthy relationships.
Yeah.
So it takes a lot of courage after 26 years for him to start speaking up probably about what he needs. As opposed to just saying, okay, it'll make all my family happy. I'm gonna do this.
Well, he was trained as a kid that his knees don't matter.
Absolutely. It's really good for him.
And so it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. It's a huge gift to have this side of my husband showing up. after all of these years. And it's a huge gift to me to actually have a partner that's helping me heal and be softer.
That's beautiful.
And have somebody take care of me. And it's just incredible. And so, you know, the thing is, is that the wrong relationship magnifies your insecurity and your emotional dysregulation and the right relationship with a lot of work helps you heal.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That's beautiful. I agree. And I think I'm curious about, you know, you're going through this process with Chris, and I think that's gonna, you know, for me, I want this to be a part of our relationship for as long as we're together, hopefully a long time, where we're constantly going to therapy.
Yes.
It doesn't need to be every week or every month, but it's like we have it in schedule. We know we're gonna go just for like, okay, how do we get to the next level? And then we go and it's always like, well, we don't have anything to talk about. There's no problem right now.
Right?
So how can we continue to create agreements to thrive?
Right.
How can we continue to feel celebrated in the relationship, accept it, and just take it to the next level? So that's been a huge thing. And as our relationship evolves from, you know, dating to moving in together and then into marriage eventually, and then It's gonna be like new agreements and new conversations that are unspoken that we need to talk about. So I'm curious because you've got two daughters, is that right?
And a son.
Two daughters, but the two daughters have relationships, right?
Yeah.
As a mother of two daughters who are dating two men, how do you know when they've made a good choice versus seeing two, three, four red flags that maybe your daughters wouldn't see? and being able to give wisdom to them without pushing them away from making their own decisions. How do you know they're making a good decision?
Well, you know when they're not.
When they're unhappy, when they're complaining, when they're stressed.
No, you know when they're not. You know when you're not, they're not because they become an insecure, people-pleasing freak and they start to attach their entire self-worth to what this dude that they're chasing thinks about them. And so when you see your kid, boy, girl, you know, even like anywhere on the gender spectrum, when you see your kid become deeply insecure and consumed by somebody else's attention, that is the wrong choice, period. And I think that the, like on one hand, I think it's amazing that there is so much kind of body positivity and sexual freedom and women are super empowered and so are men and all. But personally, I am horrified by how fast kids have sex. I am horrified by how casual it is. I think it is terrible for the mental health of girls and boys. I think the focus on there is the self-expression in terms of your sexuality and your body, but the pressure on girls in particular and young women to put it all out there to be sexual beings, it's just Well, setting you up for getting hurt.
It's really, really hard. It's setting you up for getting hurt.
Too, and hurting yourself and feeling confused. Well, here's the thing.
Women cannot have sex without getting emotionally attached.
100% agree.
And men, they can't do casual. They can't get emotionally attached until they have sex. Like we are literally wired in the opposite way. And so for women, like, I'm sorry, you cannot have sex and not have some sort of emotional connection.
There's no casual for women.
There isn't. And so the culture has shifted in a direction that does not serve women's mental health. And this is not about whether or not you should or shouldn't have sex or any of that, like it's really about understanding the impact that sex has on your mental health when you're not in a safe or committed relationship. And that's it. And the truth is that there are things that are going on in your in your chemistry, in your neurology, in your DNA that are tied to survival and to generations past that are way bigger than just the intercourse and the orgasm that you're having with this one person. And so one of the things that I find to be extremely difficult as a parent is counseling daughters through this process of online dating and of casual sex, of the hookup culture, of girls convincing themselves that they're okay with this.
And it's empowering themselves, yeah.
Yeah, I don't buy it. I don't buy it at all.
There's just so much, I mean, and here's why.
I would say to my girls, and I'm sorry that this is crude, I'm sorry, like what do you mean you're concerned about texting him? His penis was inside you. How could you not, Text him back. I'll tell you why. Because I had casual sex, now I'm emotionally invested, and now I'm insecure. And so it's like the reverse of where the boundaries you need to have with yourself. And here's the ironic thing that I think young women don't understand. If you like somebody and you don't hook up with them, They're going to want you more.
100%.
They're going to want you more. If they're interested in you now, they will be interested in you next week. And if you literally are having sex with people when they're right in front of you.
Without wanting to.
They're only going to want you for sex.
Absolutely.
That's it.
The longer you make someone wait, the more time you have to get to really know their heart also. You get to know them, their values, their vision. Like, do we want to be in a relationship? Do you really want to enter your life with someone?
Profound way. Like, I'm actually just talking about, like, so you're asking how do I advise, like, even my daughter's friends or, or like, anybody that, that is writing into the podcast. So, first of all, everybody is super motivated intrinsically by what they want. So let's just take the situation that you see somebody that's attractive, right? And you really want to get to know them better. The way to connect with somebody that you're attracted with is not Don't have sex with them.
Don't have sex.
Do not.
It's not.
And here's something else that especially for men, that if you deny them what.
They want, they'll want you more.
The chase mechanism kicks in in your brain. You want them more. If you have going on, 'cause you're a cool person, they're gonna want you more. People wanna have sex with somebody that's available 'cause they wanna have an orgasm. People are interested in pursuing something with somebody who they have to chase. I'm not talking about playing games. I'm just talking about the basic power dynamic here. It makes perfect sense that if you have sex with somebody the first night you meet them, all they're ever gonna look at you for is sex.
That's it.
That's it. And that's it. And so, That's it, everybody.
That's why I think wait as long as you can. Wait as long as you can. Yeah, it doesn't have to be wait till marriage type of thing. I'm not saying that, but wait until you, if you want to, unless you know- I don't think you should wait for marriage. I think you should wait until you know you want to be in a.
Committed relationship with this person, personally.
Well, at least exclusive. Exactly, yeah. Unless you say, Hey, listen, I don't.
Care if I ever see this person again. Okay, then have sex with them. That's the only way. Then having an orgasm.
Exactly.
Right, that's fine.
But I'm just saying, I don't think.
Women can do that.
It's very hard, I think.
Not based on our wiring. Yeah, it's very challenging.
So wait if you can. Well, if you actually want it to.
Be more than an orgasm, yes. And if you don't, then realize you might have a letdown. You might have a letdown, you might have some emotionally unwinding to do because there might be an expectation that this.
Guy is not willing to fulfill after you have sex. But see, I don't think there's a big enough conversation about the connection between sex mental health. And that, you know, if you're in the dating culture and all the pressure to have sex, and then the shame and the guilt and the insecurity and the anxiety that comes when you make decisions that you then regret, or it doesn't play out the way that you had hoped it did, even though you knew deep in your heart it was probably a dumb decision. And so you asked me originally, like, what do I do when, you know, how have I counseled my daughters who are now an exclusive committed relationships, you know when they are chasing the wrong thing. You just do.
Your daughters.
Yes, because they're not themselves.
They're acting out of whack and they're stressed and they're anxious.
Yeah, they're like questioning whether they should reach out to somebody. They're questioning whether the person likes them. They're questioning what they should do. They're like everything becomes about that person's validation of you.
As opposed to living their life. Yes.
And having somebody come into your life that's additive. Is somebody bringing positive additive energy or is somebody a gigantic distraction that amplifies your insecurity? If you don't know how the other person feels about you, I can tell you right now, They're not interested in you for the long haul.
If they're really interested, they'll be telling you. They'd be showing you, they'd be telling you.
If you're confused about how they feel, they're not interested in you. And that's all you need to know.
Focus on your life.
You were an orgasm. It's really crude to say. But we spend so much time up here. So here's another tool. I've been experimenting a lot. Louis, with two different approaches to mental health, to mindset, to healing, to peace, to happiness. So, one approach is any tool that you use that is neck up, meaning what are you thinking about? Okay? So, I think what the problem is for most of us is we spend all of our energy up here from the neck up trying to figure out through our thoughts. When the truth is, if you go from the neck down and you go into your body, you know if you feel secure or not around somebody. That's the only answer you need. And nine times out of ten, when I've seen my daughters or their friends or people that I love in the wrong relationship, It's because they're chasing somebody because they want validation. They're chasing somebody because they believe that if that person likes me or that person is hooking up with me, then that means everybody else will think something about me. And when they're in the right relationship, they are themselves, they're more of themselves. They're secure. They're not playing games. There's a directness to them that, you know, and I always say, like, I know it's the wrong advice to give 20-somethings, but I'm like, stop with the f***ing rules. Just communicate.
That's it.
And if somebody is a match, they'll be direct back. If they like you, guess what? They're over there going, oh, should I touch or not touch? Is it too much? And so if if somebody likes you and you communicate directly, you will have a match. If you are chasing validation because of what your partner looks like, or if this person hooks up with me or that person or this person or the other thing, it's all like a game.
I know. And I think if you're, and I think you should be, this is what I did with Martha. I said, I want to scare her away from me by being 100 who I am. I want her to run from me or run towards me.
Yeah.
But me not compromising how I'm going to ask questions or how I talk or how I communicate or my values or my priorities, I'm not going to shy away from anything that I believe to be true for me in my life. I'm going to be 100% honest and direct. And within five minutes of meeting her, we were talking about healing the inner child, right? Like right away we went into it, right?
Yeah.
And I was like, I hope I scare away. I hope, you know, all these things I talk about, she asked me about, At one point, probably like a month, a month and a half after I was starting to date, still no sex. She said, what's your priorities, Louis? What's your priorities in life? The old priorities question that every guy is scared of. What's your priorities? And I said, well, after I tell you my priorities, I think you're going to want to not hang out with me anymore in this way. She said, Really? And she's getting like kind of worried. And I was like, I don't think you want to hear my priorities because I don't think you can handle the truth. And I'm saying maybe you can, but most women can't handle the truth based on my personal experience. If I tell you the full honesty, there's usually a reaction from a woman like, I can't believe that's your priority.
What are your priorities? Now we need to know, dude.
Exactly. So I told her, I said, listen, I'm gonna tell you, but this is the end of our relationship. This is the end of our dating. But if you want it, you're asking for it. Okay. I'm not going to compromise who I am. Because every woman wants to hear that the number one priority is what? Number one priority most women want to hear is that they are the priority in that guy's life. That the woman is the number one priority. That's what a lot of women want to hear. Gotcha.
Once you're dating.
Once you're dating and you're committed in a relationship that, that. Oh, I don't want to hear that. Well, this is what a lot of women, maybe insecure women.
Okay.
I want to hear that you make me your top priority. If we're getting in a committed relationship, if we're gonna get married, then I'm your top priority.
That's what a lot of women want who are insecure or needy.
That's what a lot of dudes want, too, who are insecure and needy.
True.
Individuals. Yep. And I said, you're. You're. You're never gonna be. I go, you're never gonna be my top priority. My number one priority. Yep. My number one priority in my life is my health. Mental, spiritual, physical, emotional health. Because if my emotional health is off and I'm reactive, I'm not gonna be a good partner. I'm not gonna be good in my business, in my life. My physical health is off, then that's gonna take my time away from me, my energy away. So number one is my health. My connection to all facets of my health. And I need a partner who accepts me for that that's gonna take my time every day to focus on whatever I need for my health. That's number one. Okay. If you want a good partner, that's what I need. You're not my number two priority. No woman wants to hear that, that.
They'Re not one or two. Yeah, dude, that's not okay with me.
No, I'm just kidding. Number two.
What is number two?
Number two is my mission, my calling. You don't think that's part of health?
No.
I think health is me taking care of myself consciously, emotionally, mentally, physically, so.
I have the energy to take care of number two. See, this is the position I go into where I'm like, I'm absorbing this.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like, I'm receiving it. I'm receiving it because I'm literally. Most people don't want to hear it. Well, because I. I always tied, like.
Spiritual and emotional kind of with the mission. Like, with purpose. I hear you. Okay. But I got you. I got you. I need the energy spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically. Yep. To then use that energy towards my mission, my calling. Okay. The thing that I feel called by Source, by God, to do on this. This time that I'm here.
Yep.
If I If you don't do that, I'm gonna be an unhappy person. Yes. If I say, okay, I've got a direct calling that I'm supposed to do for this season of my life.
Maybe it changes in a year or 10 years.
I love that you are really embracing spirituality, dude. 100%. If this is speaking to me and I'm saying, I don't wanna do this to my creator. Yeah, yeah. You know what? I'd rather just discount what you're telling me to do, what I feel I'm supposed to do. Be of service to humanity. Yeah. If you don't support me and my mission, my purpose, And you want me to discount that and dim that, I'm not gonna be happy. I'm gonna be resentful. I'm gonna feel like I'm resentful of the relationship, resentful of myself, resentful, you know, everything. I'm gonna be off.
Yeah, totally.
And, I need time to focus on my mission. The third thing will be my intimate relationship with you. You'll be number three. Now, listen, I spend all my time with her. She, she knows she's, it feels like a number one priority. Right. I spend so much time with her. We just got back from a seven day trip. Travel. We travel all the time together. We spend all our free time together. So it feels like number one.
Yeah.
Because it's not like I'm neglecting my time with her. She is a massive priority.
I know she knows.
But she understands that I need to take care of my health first, that I need support on my mission. Don't pull me from it, but support it. And then I'm going to give you more and more time, more and more energy, more and more love and abundance.
Than you've ever experienced with those first two problems. Okay, so let me get this back to you.
You ready?
Yes. You have to have it like that. And this is the breakthrough that I just got. I'm so excited to call Chris. Be like, dude. Okay, so you have to do that. You have to make your health well-being whole.
If you're not whole, you can't be.
Good in the relationship.
Two, you've got to have a purpose beyond the relationship.
100%.
It's all about the relationship.
And if you don't have those, because if I am being honest about moments where I've been a complete do show to Chris, technical term, or he's been like a jerk to me, it's because I'm not feeling good about myself. I'm not connected to work that I love or doing something that's bigger than this. And so I take it out on him.
100%.
Yes.
You're resentful of the relationship.
Yes. So if you actually care about the other person and you care about the the thing working long term, then you actually prioritize those two things. And this goes back to dating. If you want to meet cool people and be in a relationship that makes you feel good, the second you feel yourself chasing somebody or it's bad for your mental health because you're too insecure to text the person, what? I'm not talking about like texting and blowing up their Snapchat because you're some psycho stalker. I'm talking about like, hey, what are you up to? If you're too insecure to do that, that is with your mental health. That is a red flag. Here's a green flag. You feel comfortable texting because that's what you would normally do. Here's a green flag. You ask the person to hang out because that's what you would normally do. Here's another green flag. You feel like more of yourself. Here's another green flag. It's easy. Here's another green flag. You should laugh a lot.
Have fun.
Fun.
Yes, it doesn't need to be stressful. No. Or insecurity in there. And I think, you know, my friend Matthew Hussey talks about this a lot where he's... I've never met him. Oh, he's great. You should talk to him. Where he's like, listen, I think a lot of us, and I speak from personal experience, you know, I had a lot of insecurities growing up. I wanted everyone that I was interested in to like and love me in return. If they didn't, then I didn't feel like I was enough. But we shouldn't take that as a signal that we're not enough. or we're not lovable, it's just we're not in the right match with that person. And he talks about just eliminating people as quickly as possible, not investing more time with one person, but hey, if this doesn't feel right like you're saying, then just put them in the friend zone and move on with your life. Get back to doing you, living your life, having hanging out with your friends, doing fun activities, and attracting a better match. And going not through people quicker, but meeting and experiencing people quickly and letting them go or just not engaging with them when you realize, oh, this is not a good match. And being okay with them.
That's it. It's just a mystery.
Being okay with them, not liking you.
Yeah.
I think that was really hard for me. I wanted people to like me early on if I had interest in them. And so it's like being okay if you're not the right match for someone.
Well, and also think about this. Think about the fact that at every moment in your life, every, like if you think, I like to think about life as like this one long road trip. Every year's a mile marker, right? And at every mile marker, you're a freaking different person. So think about all the people you hung out with in high school. They were your ride or die. And then you go and you go through mile marker 18 to 22, you become a different person. And there are some people that are now a mismatch. They're not bad people.
Yeah, you're just not as connected as you were in the past.
Yes, that's it. That's it. Move through people that are not a match because it's the fastest way to find people who are.
100%.
Yes, and by the way, you might find 20 mile markers down the road 20 years from now, that person's a match again.
Exactly, come back full circle.
Totally.
So what do you think about my three priorities?
I love them, I'm gonna steal it.
Okay.
I'll credit you though. I'm gonna go back to, like it as, you know, Because you had a.
Little reaction at first, you're like, I don't like that.
Well, I didn't like not being number two.
Exactly. See, I told you, no woman wants to hear that. I didn't want to hear that.
No woman wants to hear that they're not number one.
Dude, no dude wants to hear that either. But I want my partner, I don't want to be number one for her.
I want her to- yeah, because then you'd be with a clingy. I want- and I don't want to.
Be number one for my daughter. I want someone who's neglecting their health for me. Why?
You're getting unhealthy for me? Well, and here's the thing. Here's one thing I would like to change. I'm asking everybody I'm talking to this. Can we come up with a different word for mental health?
Because I- I just call it mental, emotional, spiritual.
I think it needs to be body focused. Because again, when I- Because it's a.
Nervous system health is what it is.
Yes. And because when I hear mental health, I think about thoughts and I think about like everything going from the neck up, upstairs.
But it's really your emotional- that's what happens to the nervous system that needs to heal.
You feel something.
First.
Your body feels it first. So before you even, if you're going through dating issues, before you even start to wrestle with thoughts, you feel uncomfortable about whether you should take- and then.
You start analyzing it.
Yes, you start stacking these thoughts.
And you start worrying and stressing in your head.
And then it amplifies here, but it begins here.
This is why, you know, this is.
Where the red flags are, everybody. You feel discomfort here. It's not a match. It doesn't matter how much negotiating you do with yourself up here. There is no perfect time to send a text. Hey, what are you doing? Exactly.
And when you're stressing about that, that's something you got to work on for yourself. It's not about the other person, it's about you. Why am I stressing? That's why I was telling you about this, where I went through a seven-day advanced meditation retreat with Dr. Joe Dispenza. And he talks about how, man, we've really got to heal all these different things with our thinking and with our body. And it takes practice. This is a practice thing that you've got to learn how to optimize. And it's really creating an intentional thought and then an elevated emotion so you can attract what you want. But if you're thinking scarce thinking and stressed out thoughts, you're going to be more needy and reactive.
Oh, so is he basically using the science of like trauma in a positive way. So when you have an elevated emotion, it fires up your nervous system. So then the thought gets married to that emotion.
What's the intentional thought that you want? I want a healthy relationship. So seeing that, so putting focus on a healthy relationship in your thinking first. Okay, what does that feel like? It feels peaceful, it feels joyful. I can be myself. I feel we have fun, we play, you know, when I communicate, they communicate back directly in a conscious way. Man, that feels really good. Okay, let's go create from that space as opposed to I feel anxious and tired and I'm alone and I feel like no one loves me. Can someone please love me? You know, so it's thinking and then you're feeling stressed and you're creating from that space of lack. less than loneliness and fear of someone loving you. And all my friends are all in relationships, but I'm not. Something wrong with me. I should go and then I'm anxious as opposed to, I'm going to be conscious about my thinking about what it is I want in a relationship and then feel the feeling and create from that space. And really focus on, and he talks, you know, he does a lot of the meditation practices to heal the nervous system. To go into the quantum field so you can heal the nervous system.
Yeah.
And I think that's, I wish I knew this stuff earlier, but.
Can I go back to something about the dating? 'Cause you asked me, what like do I do?
Yes.
So I've made some major mistakes.
And I wanna- When you were dating.
No, no, no, with your kids. Yeah.
Okay.
I did some, Chris and I did some incredible things. Like I think one of the things we got right, very right, is how we handled the discussion around sex.
That's good. 'Cause most people never talk about it.
Oh, we do it in a complete, Jedi mind trick way. So when our kids were young, daughters in particular, like 12 or 13, yeah. Sat them down and said, listen, sex is amazing. It is one of the most incredible things about your adult life.
Wow.
It is so incredible that you do not want to waste that experience of the first time you experience sex with some loser. in the back of a car. Like this is actually something that deserves respect and you wanna have that experience with somebody that you love. And here's, and we wanna make sure you're safe and that you are with a partner so you can enjoy it. 'Cause a lot of times the first experience and your kids are like this, wait, are you telling me to have sex? What's happening here? I say, so here's what we're gonna do. When you think you love somebody, and you have found the person you would like to have your first sexual experience with, come to Dad and I. Mm, that's good. And we will get your protection, and here's what else we're gonna do. We're gonna leave the house.
Wow.
So you can have the house to yourself.
Wow.
You can be in your room. Why is it crazy?
No, it's amazing you guys did that.
You can be in your room, you can play music, you can be in a safe space, and you can take your time. Like, we won't ask any details.
Wow, that's amazing.
But we'll leave for the, you know, we'll leave for many hours and then we'll come home. And what was fascinating is like our kids gave us that look like, and then they came to us.
And what, they came what, in '13, '14?
No, no, like, I think like sophomore year maybe.
Yeah, yeah.
And a sophomore year. And what was amazing about it Is that when you have your conversation match the reality, which is sex is amazing.
Because they're gonna do it anyways at some point.
And do you want them talking to.
Their dick friends about it?
Who have no clue about it.
And this also gives you a chance, by the way, to be there as an adult to then go, oh, because when they come to you, you're like, I'm not ready for this. But you don't say that. You say, okay, well, why do you think you're ready? And tell me how this person makes you feel. And, you know, hopefully you-- and we, of course, they had been in a relationship for a year or so, so we knew the person. And so that was absolutely incredible because that is exactly what happened. And we got them-- That's amazing. Protection. And we left the house and they felt supported. And the other thing that-- 'Cause otherwise.
They would do it behind your back anyways. If they didn't tell you about it, they'd go do it in the back of a car and hide it from you.
And then feel shame. And instead of feeling empowered. And for girls in particular, there is not a loud enough conversation about pleasure and sex and empowerment and sex and being in the driver's seat around it. And so there's too much shame and secrecy around it, which is why it becomes a mental health issue. And so the other thing that I think was interesting too is, you know, and in that same conversation, we're like, and look, you're gonna get a lot of pressure as you are fooling around with people to go down on them. I want you to stop and think about something. Are they going down on you? Mom, well, I'm serious. This isn't just about them guys. Like, why are you so quick to do that to them?
Right.
You're trying to prove something? Like, isn't, shouldn't it be reciprocal? Haven't you thought about the fact that your needs are important? and that you should be with somebody that really is concerned about your needs too. I mean, talk about a mind. Because it gets them to stop and consider, wait, I have power in this because from a very young age, from a gender, traditional heterosexual gender perspective, what happens at a junior high dance? Who asks who to dance?
The guys ask the girls.
Correct. So the girls, are trained to wait and to be chosen. And then you notice who gets picked and who doesn't. And so from a very young age, we are socialized to believe that we are supposed to be picked, which is where so much of the preening and the sexualization comes from. And so as a mom, I have been trying in subtle ways and not so subtle ways To get my daughters to go, well, why are they picking? I get that it sucks that you go to a bar and all the guys approach your friends, but why are you waiting to get picked?
Sure.
Like, can we change the conversation about this? Can you think differently about this? Don't you have so much cool going on?
Right.
Why would you leave it up to some random dude approaching you?
I know.
But, and then finally, one more thing. Never tell them all that stuff when they're in distress.
All right.
So when they call you and they're like freaking out because some guy they've been hooking up with now is hooking up with somebody else or they're not texting back or they're sad about this or they're worried about that, just say this, this changed my parenting. I know I've shared it with you before. Do you want me to listen? Or would you like some advice? And they always say, I want you to listen. And the other question that I always just ask as I'm listening and I'm going, red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag, well, how did that make you feel? How did that make you feel? Is that how you want to feel? How would it be like, what would you have wanted this person to do? To get them to start to vocalize how it's actually impacting them.
Yeah.
Because if you tell them, I don't like that person or I don't like what you're doing, now what you're doing is you're creating this triangle and they'll choose the romantic partner.
Right.
So if you want to make an impact, it's this tricky dance of knowing that they're in a red flag situation or a mismatch, that's not great for their mental health, but you gotta find ways to just listen and validate to keep them close.
Yeah.
Why do you think 99% of people stay single that are single?
Wait, what?
Why do you think the people that are single stay single? Why do you think that's hard for them to get into a healthy conscious relationship? Why do you think they're staying single longer and it's hard for them to enter relationships?
Oh, I think it's probably because there's stuff about themselves that they can't stand or are insecure about, and they're trying to solve it with a relationship. Like a relationship's not a band-aid for the things you don't like about yourself. A relationship just amplifies. It either amplifies insecurity or amplifies more of the good stuff. And so if you're chronically single and look, I don't know that this is true, but my guess is there's probably something that you've been unwilling to look at and you believe that a relationship is going to solve it.
What's going to solve the problem?
Yeah.
What will solve the problem instead of the relationship?
I think like doing all the work to just face the stuff that you're avoiding or that you feel pain about. And look, you know, one of my best friends in the whole world is like the greatest person. I just adore her and she's been single for a long time. and has not met anybody. And it makes me really, really sad. And because she's sad about it, 'cause she's lonely.
How long has she been single for?
Well, I mean, she's dated people, but just not found the one. And she's my age. And, you know, has always wanted to get married.
No.
Always wanted to, wanted to have kids, was with the wrong person in her 30s. And, you know, was with somebody who kept saying, like you said, Mismatch. I don't want kids. I don't want to get married. And she kept thinking she could change them. And then all of a sudden 40 hits and just a lot of dating and not finding the right person. And there's probably something like you said, there's a long string of things. And even if you've been in therapy, maybe there's something that you haven't really uncovered yet.
It's powerful relationship advice. I want people to follow you on the new podcast, the Mel Robbins podcast. Make sure you guys check it out. MelRobbins.com, everyone Instagram, social media, you're crushing the social media game. New podcast is amazing twice a week right now. So make sure you guys go check.
It out, subscribe, leave a review. You can also hear me, the second episode is my daughter calling. I know it's fascinating. Saying that somebody she used to be interested in now and she likes her friend. And I record a phone call where we unpack that sort of emotional tsunami and how do you make it a win? Because she doesn't wanna be with him, it just stirs up all that insecurity, right? When somebody chooses somebody else, even though you don't wanna be with them. And I really wanted to not just talk about this stuff, I wanted to bring people along for the ride in real time. And so, my boundary with my kids though is nothing errors unless you've heard it. And you said it's okay. And of course, she's now like crazy in love with somebody.
She doesn't care anymore.
She's like, whatever. She's like, two weeks ago, I don't care.
I love it. Mel, very grateful for your wisdom. I think 26 years of marriage and some great stuff and some challenges, you've got a lot of wisdom to share.
So do you? And I was, I'm stealing that three part thing. Chris, you're number three. Kids are number four. Dog is number five.
Exactly, right? I think you got to put your health first. But I mean, again, most women don't want to hear that.
You didn't want to hear that right away.
Most dudes don't want to hear it, okay? But when I told Martha this, she was like, Thank you. Because everyone that I've dated before made me their priority and they didn't have a mission or a purpose. And so that was the key. She's like, what is the thing you want to do in life? So, Very grateful for you for sharing your wisdom and excited for people to check out your show with the episode about your daughter.
Right.
It'll be powerful.
You'll be powerful. If you enjoyed that interview, then I know you'll love what we have coming up right now.
How do you think we heal trauma if we don't have the resources to go to therapy or do workshops or whatever it may be? Even if we do have resources, we don't have the courage to put ourselves out there, how do we start to heal trauma within our body?
Excellent question. So we did a whole project for Audible Original called Take Control. That was all about the thesis was this, any area of your life that you're stuck, I am willing to bet everything I have that you have a trauma pattern from your past that you've never healed. You got a boss that is abusive, guarantee you this has to do with a trauma pattern from your past. You can't succeed in the areas you want, you can't lose the weight, there's some pattern from your past. So the first thing is recognizing that you actually experience trauma. And I am a huge proponent, as so many people are, of widening the definition because I think up until about five years ago, most of us thought that trauma just meant, okay, you were in active duty, or you were in a huge accident or incident that was highly traumatic, or you survived some sort of physical, sexual, whatever abuse. Trauma is just about any kind of experience that you witness or you absorb that has your nervous system light up on edge and start warning you. So if you've ever had, like you could have a critical parent and you.
Just brace for them.
You could have a parent that drinks like crazy and you brace at five o'clock because you know they're coming home. You could have been abandoned by a parent or have a parent that was mentally ill or have a parent that was so on your ass because they wanted you to be a pro football player. And so you were constantly on edge. It's when your nervous system fires up to a state of alert that now gets programmed into your body as a response. There's a reason why so many couples at five o'clock at night start bickering. And it has to do with the fact that at five o'clock is typically when a lot of parents 20 years ago were coming home from work. And that's when the arguing would start. And so what happens when you witness that or you feel it is as a kid, you're now in a state Wow, I see you rocking in your chair.
Wow, that's crazy. Well, I mean, I just remember, you know, it's funny, there's a lot of good things that usually happen to our childhood, but we just seem to remember a lot of the bad stuff.
And it's because it's, you know why, right?
Because it's trauma just like, and your nervous system, I guess.
And also your mind is wired in a way to prioritize the negative as a means to keep your ass safe from not experiencing. Correct. which is why you got to work on your positive mindset because your mind defaults to negative. So you got to build up the programming to positive.
This isn't just woo-woo.
This is actually science.
I know. So I remember, you know, my memories of the past, I always have to remind myself of all the positive stuff that, you know, my parents did all the time and what they were going through and giving them grace and all these different things. But I remember, you know, when my dad would get home, it would be, it was, you didn't know what type of day it was going to be for him. It was like either a thunder coming through the wooden floors with his wooden shoes and being angry and upset, or it was like the loving father that would take me out and play catch in the backyard. So I have to constantly remind myself of the pause, which I'm certain it was 90% of the time was good, but those 10% of the time creates that clinching mode, like you said.
Well, let me explain what happened. So there's a really interesting concept called ghosts in the nursery. And so trauma patterns get automated because they're not experienced in your brain, they're.
Felt in your nervous system.
And so it's why you can have a pattern from your past, but be completely unaware that it's running your life right now because it's stored not in your conscious thought, but in your nervous system. And you feel it in your body before it even gets into your head. And so there's this concept called ghosts in the nursery, which basically means there's all kinds of that goes on when you're little that you may or may not remember in your mind, but your body remembers it. So for example, if you had parents that were just stressed out and they come home and they've been busy and you're sitting there playing on the floor and there's toys everywhere and mom or dad's reaction to a mess is to scream, that creates this kind of thing in your nervous system. Now, you may not remember that episode that happened on May 17th, 1972, but your nervous system remembers what it's like. So fast forward, you're now 51 years old and you walk in the house and there's a mess everywhere. And even though you have said, I'm not going to bulldoze and yell at anybody, my body recognizes the situation. So what do you do? You repeat the pattern you saw. And so what I'm working on right now is a pattern that is encoded in my nervous system. I was trying to create a video yesterday or two days ago for Share the Mic. For Share the Mic now. I'm trying to create a video and I'm like doing take after take because.
I want to get it right.
And my daughter comes waltzing into the room. and was like, how long are you gonna be doing this? And I was like, you can't do.
That and I'm working.
I literally like screamed at her. And she looked at me, Louis, and she goes, you have a real problem.
Wow.
How old is your daughter?
20. And I said, I calmly said, you,'re right. I do. When I get interrupted, I lose control.
Of the response and I'm working so.
Hard and the way that you, and I'm clearly not mastering this yet, but the way that you do it is as you feel it rise up, you have to, you know, you can use the five second rule, 5-4-3-2-1. You can use, just take a quick breath, you can notice the pattern and you've got to create a pause between the emotion rising up and the reaction that gets automated. And for many people, the reaction, Louis, is to run away. It's to leave the room. It's to avoid the confrontation. It was just easy, you know, hold on, let me let the clock go.
Even though you hate being interrupted by anything.
See, I did, like I didn't do the bulldozes. I was calm, 'cause I wasn't a human being. I'm only mean to human beings. A lot of people run away. They avoid conflict. They say it's just easier. But if running away and avoiding conflict continues to create a pattern where you feel invisible and your boundaries are tromped on, that's a pattern. And here's the other thing about patterns. Running away and being quiet might have saved you when you were little. Because if you were quiet and out of the room, you didn't get hit, you didn't get yelled at, you were out of harm's way. So when you were little, it was a genius pattern because it protected you. But the issue for adults is that again, we walk around with the patterns that we created when we were eight years old in different situations than we are now. And now we are completely a robot to these patterns.
I love that you had a great tweet the other day about boundaries because as individuals, both of us who try to help people break boundaries, try to break their mindset that's holding them back, try to get them to become greater than their past, all these different things. You wrote a post that said, your boundaries are there to serve you as you grow, so are your boundaries. What boundaries do you need to set up in order to help yourself grow? Why are boundaries important when we also have the mindset of like, you should be breaking your boundaries all the time?
Well, I wouldn't say that breaking your, like, I don't call the obstacles, I call them excuses.
And so.
I think the hardest boundaries honestly are the ones that set with yourself. To not drink during the week, to not tolerate the bulldozing and immediately apologize and try to do better, to not waste hours on social media, like all the things that the small promises you need to make in order to create boundaries with your old patterns and your excuses. To me, the hardest boundaries to set are those with myself. What was the question again?
We encourage people to break boundaries. They feel like they're limited, but you talk about your boundaries are there to serve you. So obviously it's a different type of.
Boundary, but you said-- yeah, so here's the thing.
What boundaries do you need to help yourself? To protect yourself and which ones do you need to grow past that are holding you back?
I think that the definition with boundaries that has helped me the most is understanding the boundaries are for me.
They're not for you.
And the single biggest mistake that we make in any relationship, particularly romantic ones, but also work related ones, is we do not express what we need.
That's so true. My girlfriend was telling me this the other day. She's like, I really want you to tell me what you need and when you want it and feel comfortable and confident saying it. And for me, I go back into trauma of past, like when I used to say what I want and need and it didn't get met, I'd get let down, my expectations, I'd get hurt. So I was like, screw it, I'll just do everything on my own, which leads to resentment or whatever else.
Yeah, how's that working out for you? It's like, so, Louis, that's an example of eight-year-old Louis Created a pattern that worked when you were eight. But now that you're in your 30s and in a relationship that you really care about, you've got to identify the pattern and break it and replace it. And the good news is any pattern can be replaced. Change isn't personal, it just feels personal. Change is just about identifying patterns and replacing them with new ones. That's it. And it'll take a little while because they're encoded in your nervous system and your default is to just do it yourself. But you have to, you cannot as a rule, punish other people for you didn't communicate. So I'll give you the perfect example. So Chris and I have been married for 24 years. And when I was before the talk show and I made my living mostly by doing 100 speeches a year, I would be on the road 150 days a year. And when I would come home, there was always something that pissed me off.
Like what? Like, oh, the trash isn't taken out, the clothes are here, or is it something else?
Oh, no, I'm way worse than that. Are you kidding? I would walk in after being gone for five or six days, and there on the island in the kitchen was a vase that had dead flowers. the ones that I had bought for.
Myself a week before.
And it was as if everybody in my family had been walking around the island for six days as if there was some dead flower sculpture in the middle of the island. And so I would come home and first of all, the only person that's really excited to see me is a dog. And my family did sit me down at one point and they said, you know, you realize when you're not here, we have our own lives. So you don't put your lives on hold while, you know, for us and we're not putting our lives on hold. So it's not that we're not excited to see you, but we're not organizing our whole lives around when Mom comes home.
Right.
To be like the dog. To be like the dog excited and running up and jumping in your arms and kissing you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, no. But I think that's cool because that means that they're independent and doing their own thing.
They've set boundaries.
They've set boundaries with me.
Perfect.
So for probably six months, I would get pissy and I would walk in and put my bags down and I grab the flowers and I demonstratively, how many times has everyone done this? Throw them out loudly, like, are you hearing me? Yeah, I'm getting my communication. Just throwing these dead flowers out, communicate to you that you should f***ing buy me flowers. I'm not saying that, but that's what the body language is, right? How dare, I have been I've been in four cities and then you become a mark, like, oh, I'm just disgusting when I tell this story.
But this is it. This is like, so.
Well, I see you've got some lovely flowers behind you that look alive. So that's good to see.
Oh, there's nice.
So I do love flowers. So finally, I just said to Chris, you know what would make me feel amazing? is if when I came home, you had just bought some flowers.
Just go to the grocery, just when you're at the grocery store, you don't.
Have to order, like I'm saying, buy the $5 pack of half dead tulips, just something, okay? And then he said, why? And this is the most important part of expressing, and look, you don't have to give an explanation if you're trying to cut off a toxic person, but if you want to express boundaries with somebody because you want them to understand you more deeply, give them the why. I said, because it makes me think that you are excited for me to come home and that you knew I was coming because I'm starting to feel forgotten. So underneath the anger, Louis.
Wow.
Was hurt and feeling like I didn't matter. And so I'll be darned, I walk in, And there they are. And I literally feel so seen. And the other thing to do is, and like another thing for us too is like Chris and I, I learned on my talk show because Chris was on it and we did a show all about men and what men think and the secrets they keep. I learned for the first time that my husband prefers to have sex in the morning.
I get a lot of men do.
I didn't know that.
Well, see, I didn't like it because.
I don't like bad breath in the morning.
My girlfriend says the same thing. My girlfriend says the same thing.
But I'm like, why didn't you tell me? And the reason why is because we're so funky or being vulnerable in that moment. But the greatest thing that you can do is ask for what you ask for what you want. Because then they can show up in a way where you feel seen and then you're gonna and they're gonna feel incredible and they're gonna feel incredible.
Whatever, like he's throwing away the flowers. That way of communicating also I'm the blame there as well. And I think it's, that's not a healthy way of creating love within a relationship, whether it's a friend, a family member, or a loved one.
But here's the thing. You want to know why? Let me let everybody off the hook. Because here's the reason why this happens.
And this is what I want everyone.
To know what we're up against. So, Louis, as you and I sit here talking about the flower thing, right? and you got to communicate your boundaries. As we're having this conversation, we are present and we're using the thinking part of our brain. When I walk into the kitchen, I am not thinking. I am in the emotional, traumatic, nervous system robot part of my body.
And that's where your feelings and your triggers Take over.
Yeah.
And if you can start to identify the bulldozing, the anger, all that stuff, you will literally changed your whole life by just changing one or two patterns. The other thing, and you know, you asked me about the talk show, the single greatest gift of the talk show content wise is something called the word wheel. So I don't have it right here, but if you Google word wheel or wheel of emotions, you will find that If you ask somebody, name as many emotions as you can. Most people can name three, happy, sad, angry. There's literally like 113 of them. From disgusted to hopeless to, and if you start with a core, this thing allows you to start with a core emotion and go out. Because back to the flower example, I was expressing anger. that's not what I was feeling. I was feeling invisible and forgotten. And so the word wheel is something that we used several times a week to help people go from the thing that they are expressing to communicating what you're feeling, which is a lot like the work that you wrote about in your book.
Yeah.
Around wearing masks.
Yeah.
Getting to the root of the poor emotion you're feeling but not expressing. And that gets back to the pause thing. What have I seen that I am busy? That I am so... Have you ever wanted something so bad that you become paralyzed?
Yeah.
I so want to end the mental pain and suffering that people.
I so.
Want to help people heal their minds and to have the power to create a better future. And I get so overwhelmed by how much I want to see that happen in the world, that sometimes I become paralyzed. And what happens for me a lot of the time is I feel insignificant in my ability to move the needle on that.
Mmm.
Yeah, because there's billions of people who are struggling.
And it's like, what do you do.
To make the maximum use of your time to make the maximum impact? And also create resources to create more impact. I get to- I yell at my husband to buy me flowers.
That's what I do.
I get to feeling, is this wheel of emotions?
Is this something you created or is this something else? No, it's in the public domain.
Wow, that's cool.
I've never heard of that. That's really cool. Now, I've been, I think I mentioned this to you, I've had some, I guess I've had some paralysis or just a lack of focus around completion of my book proposal I've been working on for about a year as well. About, exactly, about, you know, eliminating self-doubt. I think self-doubt and mental challenges kind of are cousins maybe of each other, family members in some way. I think self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I believe when we don't believe in ourselves and our abilities, eventually we're going to sabotage something. And I hear you talk about confidence a lot. A lot of your social media posts are about this. You say it a lot better than I do. But what do you think are the reasons we doubt ourselves? Or what do you think is the steps to gaining more confidence in ourselves when we doubt?
So I always thought that confidence.
Was.
A thing that you feel. And I have come to prefer that confidence is something that you do, meaning.
That, you know, a lot of people.
Thought, a lot of people like to, to think, okay, well, you're gonna feel confident first, and then once you feel confident, then you'll take the action. And that's wrong. It's not a chicken or an egg in my mind. I think what happens is you have to force yourself in a moment of.
Self-Doubt to do something.
And when you see yourself taking action, the confidence follows. So I have created my own definition of confidence. which is confidence is the willingness to try. And you display the willingness to try when you take action. It's a lot like the relationship between courage and fear. You can't have courage without fear. Courage isn't the absence of fear. It's acting in the face of it. And confidence isn't the absence of self-doubt. it's being willing to try even though you doubt yourself.
That's beautiful.
That's going in the book. I'm quoting you in the book.
Make it your own.
I love that. That's powerful.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I'm sure you probably, we're very similar in the sense that we do a lot and we build confidence because we would take action. You and law school and, and public defending and all these different things you've done, which like, okay, I'm afraid, but let me go do it and do it. And now, okay, I'm getting better. Now I feel more confident. It's not just, it's not just let me learn something or let me read a book. And now I'm confident in a skill that I haven't applied. I must apply it and fail a bunch and realize, oh, okay, I've gotten better. I have fallen over and over and now I'm standing and I'm actually doing.
Okay and I'm doing even better now. Let me build my confidence. So, yes, and look, you know, here's the thing. I think that preparation and studying something so that you feel like you have an understanding of something can be an important first thing that you try, but don't let the studying of something become the reason why you don't actually take the next action.
Well, I need to get my master's, I need to go to a business school, I need to go to whatever, and then never actually do it. When you can start doing something much sooner before needing to have all the credentials necessarily.
Yes, there's very few things.
Except for like being a doctor, okay, maybe don't do surgery.
Correct. Yeah, chemist, a doctor, something that requires you to actually have accreditation and specialized knowledge and engineer, whatever. But most things that you will master in life will not be mastered by reading a book. You cannot learn how to ride a bike by by reading about it. You have to get your ass on that seat and find your balance. That's how you find balance is by falling. Because balance is somewhere in between not being...
Okay, so this is kind of my brand of advice. It's got to be incredibly stupid on the surface. It's got to be so simple, it's really implausible that it works. And once you start unpacking it, It has to have a crazy bananas amount of scientific proof and real life proof in people's lives to prove why it works. So I'll tell you the story first behind the high five habit. Because I did not set out and go like, okay, I've written the five second rule book. I need to come up with another five. I have been toiling away with what book to write for nearly five years. So it's been five years since I've had a book in print. I had this random morning where there's a lot going on in my life. I'm not going to get into it because it's a boring story, but I was just having a really hard time in my life. And I woke up, got out of bed, I made my bed like I always do, I walked into the bathroom, I'm standing there brushing my teeth, and I catch my reflection in the mirror. And my first thought is, God, you look like hell. Seriously. And I know women in particular can relate to this, but what a lot of people don't realize is you guys are incredibly hard on yourselves too. And so as I go, God, you look like hell, I start then cataloging all of the things that are wrong with my appearance. I'm like, your gray hair is coming in, you've got stripes on your neck, one of your boobs is lower than the other. you look exhausted. And then as soon as you have a negative thought or a self-criticism, it's sort of like lint in a dryer. Once you start collecting it, it just keeps on collecting it. So now I'm thinking not about how horrible I look or how tired I look. Now I start thinking about all the stuff I need to do. I start going, oh my gosh, I got up a little too late and I've got a Zoom call in eight minutes. I don't even have a brawn yet. The dog needs to be walked. And I could feel my energy going.
Down.
Like I just felt the weight of the world on my shoulders. Overwhelmed, uncertain. You know, it doesn't even matter what was going on in my life at that time because I think it's a universal feeling to feel overwhelmed by your life at times. And so here I am, a motivational speaker.
Unmotivated.
Unmotivated. uncaffeinated, no brawn, standing there in my underwear with my dog at my feet. I don't know what came over me. But as cheesy as it sounds, I just raised my hand and gave the tired, haggard woman in the mirror a high five. And it didn't change my life, like right then and there. but something shifted. Like I felt a little lighter. I felt like I wasn't alone. I felt like, okay, you know, this moment in your life is hard, but you can do this, Mel. And I went on with my day. So the second day I woke up and this is when things started to really kind of churn in my mind. The first thing that I noticed was this. So I wake up, Louis, and I make my bed. And I realized I was looking forward to that moment in the mirror where I was gonna see myself. Now look, I'm 52 years old. I will probably have a hot flash during the middle of this interview at some point. I'm a lot older than you.
Just don't eat lobster.
Oh yeah, I know. I had a really allergic reaction the last time we were together. Wow. But, I have spent the first 45 years of my life either criticizing the woman in the mirror or ignoring her. And this was the first time that I could remember that I was actually looking forward to seeing myself. Sort of like, you know, when I was coming here today, you and I are very good friends. As I was walking into the building, I'm feeling excited to see you. And it wasn't like I was feeling excited to see myself. Like, I'm not like, yeah, because I got a lot of crap going on in my life, but I felt a little bit like I'm about to see a friend. And so that second morning, I high-fived myself again. And again, I feel something shift. I feel a little, just a little lightness in the mood and I go on with my day. So the third morning, I do it again. And again, like lightness and so I.
Keep doing it, keep doing it a.
Couple weeks go by. And now I'm starting to feel a little bit of momentum. And I'm really enjoying it. I have no idea what the hell is going on. I haven't even done this in front of my husband, Chris yet, because let's.
Be honest, standing in front of a mirror.
High five yourself. Yeah, come on. How pathetic does it get? You're like, it's really, you're like that bad. So, I snap a photo of myself. I've got my retainer in, I got Bed Head, I'm not looking glamorous. I did not expect this to be to be the photo that would ignite a movement. And within an hour, I posted on my story on Instagram, within an hour, at least 100 people tagged me. All over the world, people high-fiving the mirror with their kids, people on a submarine high-fiving it in the military, people MMA, like just, and I thought, okay, wait a minute. Maybe I'm not the only one that needs a little boost in the morning. Maybe I'm not the only one who feels alone. maybe I'm not the only one that is missing a sense of encouragement and control and confidence in an overwhelming moment in my life. Maybe there's something here. And then the messages started to come in. Whoa, Mel, like I have been using this for five days. This woman wrote to us, Louis, She's had body dysmorphia for 20 years, has not been able to look at herself in the mirror. Five days of doing this high five and she said, I can look at myself and I even see beyond the body, I see the person. And I can grin. We had a woman who wrote to us who said that she was in a domestic violence shelter. She had escaped a very abusive relationship. She had seen me talking at our friend Jamie Kern Lima's event. She started doing the high five thing. she DMs us and she says that, you know, I have childhood trauma. I've just been in a physically abusive relationship. I've lost everything. I'm in a domestic violence shelter. What this high-five in the mirror is teaching me is that I still have myself. And so that was when I said, I got to figure out what's going on. And I started to unpack the research. And the research around this simple ritual, I love that you called a ritual because I want people to habit stack this with brushing their teeth. This is so life-changing. It's so simple. The science here is like, you can't believe it. And once I unpack it, you're gonna be like, I can't believe how cool this thing is.
So, what's the science say?
Okay, so the science. Let's start with the first thing. So the first thing is that when you first try it, okay? you will not be able to raise your hand and high five yourself and be like, you suck, Mel, or today is going to be terrible. And there's a reason for that. And the reason is that for your entire life, you have given other people high fives. So when you give a high five or you receive one, what is a high five? Just the gesture alone. What does this communicate if we do this to each other?
Nice job, good work. You're doing amazing. Keep it up.
Yeah, I believe in you. I love you. Let's go. If you blow a shot, you got to get back in the game. A high five is like shake it off, you can win. And so all of that lifetime of high-fiving other people and the messaging associated with it is programmed right here in your subconscious brain. There's a field of study called neurobiotics, which is about-- Neurobiotics. I didn't make that up. It's interesting. Physical movement plus new neurological activity. When you marry an unexpected physical movement with new neurological activity, it's the fastest way to forge new neural pathways in your brain.
Okay.
Okay. We know the example you've covered this on your show of brushing with the wrong hand and thinking positive thoughts. And the reason why that works is because when you're brushing with the wrong hand, it's unexpected, your brain doesn't expect it. So instead of drifting off about the fact that you need to walk the dog, you have to focus so your prefrontal cortex is engaged. You're not used to high five in your own reflection. So it's an unexpected physical movement that then activates all of the positive programming in your subconscious. So when you raise your hand and you high five your tired self, Louis. What happens is all of the messaging with this, the high five, I believe in you. I love you. I celebrate you. You got this. Keep going. Come on. It actually fuses with your freaking reflection. It's impossible to criticize yourself. Your brain won't allow it because it's not wired that way when you're making that motion. -Right.
-Isn'T that crazy? -It's hard to say you suck. You don't matter to anything.
It's hard to say that.
-No.
Yeah. -You can't.
You can't.
And so this lifetime of positive subconscious programming associated with high-fiving other people gets fused with your own reflection in this ritual. That's just the beginning. That's just the beginning. The second thing that starts to happen that's really interesting. So we've had a ton of people do this, obviously, around the world. Super easy idea. It's spreading around the world. We start interviewing people about what's going on. this is what we notice. We notice that one of two things happen when you first try this. So here's how I want everybody to try it. You're going to go into the bathroom and do it before or after you brush your teeth. And that's important because I want you to make this a ritual that's part of your morning routine. And so we need to stack it with something you already do. And you're going to stand there for a minute and I want you to look at yourself. Now that right alone most of us don't do. Look at yourself. and I want you to just think about the day ahead. This is based on more research. So recent studies show from the University of Florida that if you take just a minute and you set an intention about how the day is going to go, about who you're going to be, how you're going to show up, what's the one thing that kind of matters to you to really make a difference, to make progress on, if you just kind of set that intention, who am I going to be today? How am I going to show up today? Even if it's a hard day, how are you going to show up? And then you raise your hand and you seal it. Research shows just setting the intention alone changes your mood, it boosts your productivity, it increases your ability to make an impact on other people. And so when you seal it with this high five, it becomes this ritual of setting an intention for the day and also silencing the and reprogramming the default setting about how you see yourself, whether or not you believe in yourself. And you leave that bathroom feeling like the wind is at your back. Now, when people do this for the first time, so you're going to stand there tomorrow and you're going to go, okay, Mel Robinson, Lewis, jeez, can you just sit in here? Brush my teeth. Okay, this is stupid. You're going to just start rejecting it. I guarantee you. This is the coolest stuff you're gonna have the biggest resistance to. And so for those of you that just raise your hand and do it, you're gonna immediately be like, why have I not been doing this? It feels good to be encouraged and supported.
To high vibe yourself. Yes.
Why have I not had my own back? Why do I stand here and criticize myself? Why do I allow this moment every single morning to be a moment where life takes over and I drift into autopilot. Why am I not taking this moment for me to build a partnership with myself? The second group of people, and this is the larger group, resisted. And this is really interesting. And the reason why you resist it and the reason why it feels weird is because you believe you're not worthy of support or celebration.
From yourself or from others?
Period. Wow.
Why do we think we're not worthy of celebration?
Well, for people that grew up in chaotic, violent, or whatever household, it was your lived experience.
Yeah.
I think that for many of us, we look back on our lives and the cognitive negative bias has us focus on the things that went wrong. And so you begin to tell yourself a story about your life that is basically a pyramid of all the things that you regret, of all the things that you wish had done over, of all the things that you don't like about yourself. And so you drag that with you into the bathroom every morning. and you stare at the mirror and you see somebody that has screwed up. You see somebody who's not where you're meant to be. You see somebody who doesn't have the number on the scale or the car that you wanted or the job that you had hoped for or the relationship that you had always dreamed about. And so standing there, you believe you're not worthy of support or celebration. And it's this deep belief. You know, we talk a lot in the personal development development space of, oh, I'm not good enough. I actually think that's the polite thing that people say. I believe that people have a much more horrible way of talking to themselves.
Like what?
I can't say it on TV, but I can say it on the internet. I'm a piece of s**t. I'm worthless. No one will ever love me. I screwed up my life. I'm a failure. I'll never amount to anything. It's too late. I'm a bad person. Like I think people actually say this to themselves.
Yeah, and they say it over and over again.
Yes.
Daily.
Yes, yes. And just like ruts on a dirt road, it starts to wear in your brain and it becomes the familiar path. And so you stand in front of the mirror and you know, I'm telling you raise your hand and let all that positive programming you've given to everybody else. We are amazing at celebrating everybody else. We cheer for our favorite sports teams. We buy tickets to our favorite musicians. We throw birthday parties for people. We take on extra work for our colleagues. We help our family members out and our friends out. But when it comes to supporting ourselves, we don't know how to do it.
In fact, there's a lot of people.
That think it's selfish to put yourself first or that you're arrogant if you're do.
Right.
I'm here to tell you it is essential to your well-being, to your fulfillment, to your happiness, all of it. So if you're feeling resistance, you're either going to feel it because you already have a deep story that you don't deserve it because of your track record, your past, because of what's happening in your life, or you're going to feel resistance because you have been trained to believe that you only deserve that kind of stuff when you're winning. Like, if I don't have that car, I don't get the high five. If I didn't get that promotion, I didn't deserve it. If I am not in a loving relationship, I don't deserve to be celebrated because I'm not actually achieving or doing the things that warrant that. I'm here to tell you, I'm on a mission to make every human being realize that if you wake up in the morning and you're breathing, and you're standing in front of that mirror and you have survived the stuff you have survived and you are still waking up and trying to do better. You not only deserve a high five, you need it. Because what we also know based on the research is that empowerment, support, kindness, love, celebration, it is the single most motivating force on the planet. Tough love is a bunch of baloney. What really fuels people, particularly when you're going through a challenge, is feeling celebrated, seen, and supported. And the research bears it out.
Yeah, I can think of the times when I was with on sports teams where I had great loving, encouraging coaches. It made me want to work harder from a more energized place, an abundant energy But when I had the coaches that would just degrade you and put you down and call your names in front of your teammates and make you feel bad, it would drive me to try to be better, but it was always like harder and I never felt satisfied. I never felt fulfilled. I always felt like even when I accomplished something, it still wasn't good enough. And then I repeat that pattern, like, okay, I'm gonna accomplish, but it's not enough to feel loved. And so we keep accomplishing in order to feel loved, but I still don't love myself. myself because it's not good enough.
Yeah.
Let me go for the next thing.
Yeah, exactly.
It's funny because I have a photo on my phone that my. My therapist told me to do this exercise in, like, eight months ago, which was a. A strategy for me to reclaim the love for myself. So I have a photo of my. My childhood self. I don't know if people can see this on YouTube, but a photo of me. This is probably when I was, like, five or. six, maybe I was seven. But something that I've tried to do and really been integrating my life is to reconnect with the child where I felt like I stopped loving myself.
Okay, so let's talk about this right now.
You ready?
Let me talk about this image. So let's talk about the Lewis this age standing in front of a mirror.
Yeah, and what I do is I stand in front of myself as a child. I imagine myself Imagine looking at the mirror as yourself.
--Yes. --Well, what I'm trying to say is when you were this age and you stood in front of the mirror, you had a totally different relationship with yourself because you still loved yourself. You still thought that you were a great kid and you wanted all the things that the adult Louis wants. You want to feel loved. You want to feel seen. You want to feel heard. You want to feel like you matter. And you in seeing yourself when you were this age, felt those things for yourself.
-Yeah, absolutely.
-And somewhere along the way, you lost it. -Correct. -And so, what I'm trying to say is that when you stand in front of this mirror, exactly what Lewis is talking about, when you've got coaches that scream at you and degrade you and, you know, sure it makes you run faster, but it leaves its mark. -It does. -It leaves its mark. And so, there's research. So, let me talk about why this is so motivating, particularly because so many of your audience love sports, right? So, they did a study where they looked at NBA teams, and what they wanted to take a look at was, does fist bumps, backpacks, and high fives make a difference in a team winning touch, right? --Didn't they do like a 2020 special or something?
--I don't know, but if they did.
I need to watch it. --Yeah, yeah.
--But so like the power of touch.
But I think it's deeper. It's the Power of Encouragement. And so what they found is that in the study, at least in the years that they looked at, you could take a look at the teams that made it to the championships in the NBA, go all the way back to the preseason, and those were the teams that had the most number of fist bumps and back pats and high fives. Yep. And the same was true about the teams that were the lowest in the league at the end of the season. They had the least amount. Of fist bumps, high fives, and touch.
Why?
They're the least encouraging. Correct. Those sorts of gestures build trust and partnership. I'm telling you, when you stand in front of a mirror and ignore yourself, you're like the losing NBA team. Interesting. Selfish on your own, isolated, you're not in partnership with the person you're staring at in the mirror. You don't have your own back 'cause you're ignoring yourself. Yes. There's another study, and this one is, I think, even more powerful. So they did this study where they wanted to know what's the most motivating thing to help somebody get through a really big challenge. They divide, the researchers divide kids into three groups, right? And they gave each of the groups of kids very challenging problems to work through. And they wanted to measure, okay, how resilient, how long would they work, what were their attitudes foods like and then they measured it based on, well, what form of praise or support are we going to give each one of these groups and let's see what's the most empowering.
Interesting.
First group gets what we know to be the fixed mindset stuff. The praise was all verbal praise and it was simply about a trait. Lewis, you are so smart. Lewis, you know, you are a super student praising something something that is just sort of a compliment about you. The second group of students working on a challenging problem got praise based on work ethic. So something in their control. Oh, Lewis, you're working so hard. Lewis, you got such good perseverance. Lewis, you know, you're really like just grinding away over there. Good job. Those guys did better than Lewis, you're smart. Lewis, hard working, better. The third group, the researcher simply walked up, did not say a word. and high five the kid.
Really?
That's it. That's it. That group literally exponentially more motivated, worked longer, worked through more challenging problems. Now here's the big question. Why? Why would a simple high five with no verbal praise be more empowering and motivating and inspiring and develop more resilience and confidence and motivation inside somebody. And the reason why is this. A high five affirms your deepest fundamental needs. It's not just a gesture. When you high five somebody, particularly somebody who has either blown the free throw shot or is working on something difficult or going through a really hard time, when you high five them, you're saying, I see you. When you high five them during a challenge, you actually are acknowledging, I know this is hard. So the person feels heard. And because it's one to one, and you have to be really intentional. Like if you and I go to high five, like we have to focus on it. That was a good one. If you miss it, what do you do?
You gotta do it again.
Correct. So there's an intentionality behind it, and that makes you feel like you're being affirmed as a unique individual.
Interesting.
And so all of those things are in that one gesture. Now, it goes even more. So there's even more here. So I was talking to our buddy Dr. Daniel Amen, right? And so one of the world's leading experts on brains, he's got like 60,000 brain scans.
I think it's like 120,000.
Oh, is it at this point?
That's some crazy, yeah.
So he was so excited about the high-five habit he Completely geeked out. He's like, oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes. He's like, yes, neurobiotics, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So we then, he said, let me tell you what else is going on, Mel. And I'm like, really? There's more? He said, yeah. He said, you know how when you do it, you said you felt like a little kind of boost in your mood? He said, well, there are two things going on there. He said, first of all, when you cross a finish line in a race, what do you do? Put your hands up. Yeah. What do you do when your favorite team wins? High five someone. Yeah, you high five somebody. What do you do at a music concert.
Yay!
What do you do? You're raising your hand in celebration when you high-five somebody or fist bump them or put your arm around them. That raised arm gesture in a positive sense triggers your nervous system to tingle with celebration. It's the energy of celebration even if you're going through something difficult. And even more, you get a dopamine drip when you do this. And so, Part of the reason why you feel this kind of shift in your mood and you feel a little bit of like, oh, okay, I can do, I can face this. I can do this. I got this. Is because of the dopamine, it's because of the nervous system, and it's because of all of this positive programming associated with that gesture. Nothing is really giving you the sense of meaning and purpose and joy that you generally want. That has happened in your relationship. And what What happens when you are in a period of liminality like this, where the big dilemmas are not getting answered, is that all the unknowns.
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