The 5 BOUNDARIES You Need To Set In EVERY Relationship! | Melissa Urban

I think so many people think that boundaries are about pushing people away or holding them at a distance or that they're controlling or manipulative. Boundaries are a gift in your relationship. Even in a relationship in...

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

The first thing I wanna talk about are the key boundaries that I think we need to be creating in relationships first. I wanna go with family and then ourselves afterwards. But relationships, I feel like, are the things that bring people the most joy and the most stress in their life.

Yes.

If it's great, then it brings a lot of joy. If it's not, a lot of stress.

Tons of stress.

You've been through divorce, remarriage, you've been in different relationships, you've been single for a period of time, all these different things. What would you say after all this life experience are the key boundaries we need to create in relationships before entering a relationship?

Oh yeah. So like there's almost a pre-step that you have to take that I spent almost four years doing before I got into my new marriage, which was spending time by myself, figuring out after my divorce who I was again. Because I feel like when you spend so much time in a relationship trying to make it work, you give away so many pieces of yourself that by the end of it, I didn't know who I was anymore. I didn't recognize myself.

Really?

Yeah, my self-confidence, my sense of self, I had, I think, chipped away so much at myself in an effort to make it work that it took me a while, I think, to get back to like, okay, what do I need? What do I like doing? What are the things that I haven't been doing that I want to get back to? What are the things that I value? So I spent a lot of time by myself. And when I was thinking about my new relationship, I came up with a list of non-negotiables. There were a few things that I was like, I will not be in a relationship without them.

What are those?

The first was that my family, my immediate family, has to like you. Hard stuff. I know that that sounds almost intuitive, but I made a lot of excuses for past partners with the people that mattered to me the most. My sister being the most important one, where she was seeing red flags before I was. And I was kind of trying to bridge that gap. And I was like, I will not do that anymore. If I show up and this person is not integrating well with my family, That is an immediate sign.

Because then there's gonna be discord for the rest of your life. The rest of the time you're with that person, right? Your family's gonna be like, I don't really wanna spend time with this person. Your partner's gonna be feeling like, your family doesn't like me.

I don't wanna hang out with them. It's gonna be this kind of discord, right? And I know that my family is amazing. They're healthy. They don't have, you know, troubling or manipulative tactics. Like my family's a very healthy family unit where we can talk about problems now. And so if my partner's not getting along with them, that's a big sign. I also said that I would never again make myself small for the sake of my relationship. I would never again downplay the things I knew I was good at, the ambitions that I had, the things I wanted to pat myself on the back for. I absolutely wanted a partner who was going to be supportive of all of that and encourage all of that in me. so that was another non-negotiable okay, so as I'm thinking about all of these things that I want for my new relationship, I had to take a step back and say, okay, how am I going to show up in this relationship and not bring my own baggage into it? How am I going to make sure that the past is processed and I'm not carrying it forward and I'm not blaming my next partner for things that my old partner did? So I went back to therapy and spent a lot of time in therapy. But one of the things I committed to in my new relationship that I guess is a boundary for me is that I committed to always saying what I meant and meaning what I said. And I feel like that's not often the case in relationships. There's a lot of back and forth between, especially with women, we've been societally conditioned not to say what we mean. We have to be coy about it. We have to hint around it. You, as my partner, have to guess how I'm feeling and interpret how I'm feeling. and then do the right thing. And then if you don't, I get mad at you for not doing the thing that you didn't know you needed to be doing. It's exhausting. It's exhausting, and it leads to a lot of miscommunication. So I decided to show up in this new relationship, and I said to my husband, I will say what I mean, and you know that you can trust that. So when you say to me, Are you mad at me? I'm gonna take a moment to think about it. And then if I say no, you can trust that. You can trust that it has nothing.

To do with you, and it's not about you, because if we had a problem, you would know it. And you don't need to walk on eggshells trying to say, when's she gonna.

Tell me what's really going on? Yes. And if you say, Hey, is it cool if I go to jiu-jitsu tonight? And I'm like, okay, I'm home, I'm alone with the kid. These are the things that I have going on. And I think about it and I.

Say, Yep, it's cool.

You know I mean it. And you're not gonna come home at nine o'clock to like a s***storm. Right, a resentment where I'm like, why did you go? And how could you leave me with these many things? And then I also kind of said to him, I'm expecting the same of you. so I will not engage with passive aggressive behavior. If you walk around the house and you're stomping around and you're throwing things down, as far as I know, we don't have a problem because you haven't.

Told me that we have a problem.

Yeah, you've got something else going on in your mind. Yeah, I'm gonna assume that it's not about me because if it was about me, you would have told me or you would say, I'm upset with you, but I'm not ready to talk about it. Let's come back in a little while. So it took us a while to learn to sort of trust that communication pattern with each other, but it's been enormously helpful. And I would say it's the foundation. It's like what I call our relationship golden rule. It's the foundation for any boundaries that we set with each other, which is I'm going to take responsibility for my own needs and my own feelings. I'm going to speak clearly and directly, kindly, but clearly and directly about what I need from you. And you can trust that I am going to say what I mean. And it's been really huge for us. Huge.

What's been the biggest, you know, anytime we take on something new, we let go of the old pattern and we step into a new pattern, new behaviors, new stuff starts to come up or there might be moments of frustration or some PTSD feelings or, ah, is it really gonna work out? What has been the biggest breakdown that you've had to overcome in the last year and a half, two years while taking on this new behavioral pattern.

Yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't say it was a breakdown because we worked around it because we're married and we live together now. But when he was talking about moving in with my son and I, so my son and we bought, my husband and now husband and I bought a house together. We picked it out together. It was big enough for all of us. My son and I moved in on our own and we wanted us to get settled in before we introduced Brandon into the household. That was cool with everybody. My son finally was like, when's Brandon going to move in with us? And I was like, awesome, we're in it. When he started to move in, he had-- Sort of freak out.

A huge freak out.

A huge freak out because in the past, he would come to stay over and he'd stay for a night or two and I'd be like, okay, I need an alone night. And he would go back to his place and I'd go back to my place and now like there's nowhere else for him to go. No alone night. No, there's no alone night. And so I found that he would be hanging out doing normal things around the house, existing as a human being. And I would be like, oh my God, I like need you to be out of this space. I need you to do, like it was intense. I felt really good. It was like the first week, first.

Month, first few months.

First week. It was bad. It got bad to the point where he like went home. He went to his old apartment and like slept on the floor for a night or two so I could figure it out. So I called my therapist right away and I was like, okay, I want this to work. I'm clearly still struggling with like energetic capacity and some old baggage and I need to relearn how to share my space and I need to relearn how to communicate when I need alone time, but like I need to figure out how to have alone time together.

Right.

And then we worked it out. We started figuring it out.

Were you guys married at that time yet?

We weren't married yet. I actually said to him, I said to him at one point, do you think that we could get married but not live together? That was like a real thing that I was wondering if we could do. And he goes, that would not work for me.

Wow.

First of all, kudos to him for being that clear. He wasn't mad about it or he didn't stomp off. He just said, that would not work for me. And I was like, okay, well I wanna be married to this man. So we have to find out how.

You would have been married, but at the time you were like, I want to live alone still.

I just didn't know how I was going to be able to incorporate him into our life. I had been living alone for five years, you know, with my kid and.

We had our own routine.

And yeah, and I felt it was just hard for me to share my space. I'm so introverted and I really had to find ways to get that like alone time and recharge time with him in the house. And we've definitely worked it out now, but there was a lot of communicating that had to go on in the beginning where I was like, It's not you. I love you. I'm so happy that you're here. And also, I need an hour by myself so I can just recharge my batteries. I need alone time like most people need to breathe. And here's what it's gonna look like and it's never about you. And if I have to tell you before I leave the room every single day, Hey, it's not about you, but I need alone time, I'm happy to do that. So it took a lot of communicating and then he had to learn not to take it personally. But we both did that work. Wow. And now it's good.

What is the next level for you after you've gone through all this over the last couple of years of unlearning and learning new things? What is the next level of peace, of harmony, and of love and joy for you?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely still have some unpacking to do with my trauma. Sexual assault at 16, family didn't handle it well. I've spent Decades in therapy unpacking it. And I feel like I've reached a really good place of like peace and comfort and forgiveness, especially for myself around it. But there are still pieces of it that I struggle with. And so, you know, I'm still in therapy relatively regularly. And once in a while my therapist will be like, okay, you know we need to talk about this. And I'm like, I don't wanna. But I know I need to, right? And it's like you said, when you start to unpack something, It's like you're going to organize a closet and the first thing you have to do is take everything out of the closet.

All the trash, all the junk.

Oh, it's such a mess before it gets better and that's kind of what it feels like. But I've started that process. I just need to like keep going through it.

What do you think is available on the other side if you go through and face all the mess?

I mean, I'm gonna tear up if I talk about it. You know, a new relationship with certain family members that I am absolutely holding at a distance right now with what is a healthy boundary for me in the moment. Because I don't feel safe enough to have deeper conversations right now because of the engagements that we've had in the past. But what if we could open that up and I could have a deeper relationship and we could come to resolution and I could kind of be able to share some of the things that I want to share in a way that doesn't make me so scared.

Yeah.

Because their unhealed response then piles on me and is really...

It's triggering.

Yeah, really hard for me.

Well, what's it gonna take for you to get there?

More therapy on my part, absolutely. Honestly, the willingness to open those conversations. Right now, I have certain things just in a box. Right. And it's comfortable in that box, you know? It feels good. I know where it is. I know if I want to open it, I can open it, but like it's kind of easy not to, and the box has its nice little place in my life and it really requires, as my therapist keeps telling me, like, we're gonna have to open the box, right? If you, and you don't, I don't have to. I could keep doing things the way that I'm doing, but like the universe is not subtle. And there are definitely things where it's like, you know, poking me and prodding me, like, I think it's time.

When.

Do you think you'll be ready to open it up?

I'll never be ready. It's funny, I keep taking steps forward. I went through this big journey where I started the process of reparenting. So I don't know if you've gone through any of that yourself. It was so intense for me.

I have... Got a photo of my younger self on here, healing the inner child. Reparenting myself. The different stages of my childhood.

Yes.

So it started at five when I was sexually abused.

Yes.

And so I had a photo on there for a year of my five-year-old self.

Wow.

Now it's the 10 to 12 year range, which I'm about to go into the 16 to 18 year range.

Yes.

All the different kind of deeper wounds that I never fully opened the box back to and mended and integrated the healing of. So that's been, my goal is to go from the youngest memories I have up until now.

Yeah.

And to work on all those stages, psychologically, emotionally, the memories, and reintegrate love from this place as me being the parent to my younger self.

I'm getting like chill.

Yeah, so for me, I can relate to a lot of this because I know the suffering that can happen inside of someone when they hold on to that pain and when there's a wound that keeps triggering us. without mending the wound. So I can empathize and relate based on my experience to how that's felt and know it can be extremely painful. It took me 25 years to face sexual abuse, talking about my own experience of that. And for about a year and a half, two years, I would still tremble talking about it. This was almost 10 years ago when I opened up. Now I can speak about it without feeling painful, you know, without a wound like reopening because it's, it's, I can speak about it, you know, not that it's a small thing to talk about, but I can speak about the memory and the experience from a place of I've done a lot of the healing work over the years. I've spoken about it enough. It doesn't scare me anymore to talk about it.

Yeah.

Doesn't mean I wish it would have happened, you know, I wish it wouldn't have happened, but I'm from a place of peace around the memory.

Yeah.

And I've reparented myself in that space. But it took me 25 years and I suffered and I got a lot of results in my life. This is what I think people don't understand is you were extremely successful before these last couple of years of healing, of therapy and creating boundaries. You didn't have certain boundaries, but you had this massive, you know, New York Times best-selling book and this massive audience. You were extremely successful. so you can still function and be successful, but there was, you didn't have boundaries and you hadn't processed a lot, right?

Yeah.

Well, by the time I wrote my books, I was pretty decent at boundaries, especially around 30. Yes, especially around my entreprenEuring, because I figured out super fast when I quit my full-time job.

But in your personal life.

No, not as much.

That's what I'm saying. You didn't have the boundaries in your personal life.

Not as much. I had some in some areas, right, around my drug addiction and recovery, really solid boundaries.

But no, not-- Relationships.

Yeah, relationships, especially with family, parents.

And you were still able to be successful in society's terms with getting results. Which I think people can see that and be like, oh, she's got it all figured out. And you were able to function at a high level and accomplish a lot, but there was still stuff inside of you that you were working through.

Yeah, right. Definitely.

And that's why I asked you a question. What do you think is available on the other side when you open the box? It's the right time for you. I'm not trying to have you open it up in this week or something.

Yeah.

When the time works for you, which you said may never be the right timing, what is available on the other side?

It's freedom. It's literally freedom. What is available on the other side is freedom. And that's really at the heart of my boundary practice. I think so many people think that boundaries are about pushing people away or holding them at a distance or that they're controlling or manipulative. Boundaries are a gift in your relationship. Even in a relationship in which you are so close and so open and so vulnerable, like with my husband, we still have boundaries that are healthy for both of us.

Sure.

And so on the other side of opening this box and exploring it will simply come a new set of boundaries, and hopefully those boundaries have continued to expand our relationship and they continue to allow me to show up in a way that still feels good to me and safe to me. And then as that relationship progresses, hopefully I can back those boundaries off because showing up all the time or most of the time feels good and safe. That's what's on the other side of it. It's really freedom.

Yeah, I think it's creating the freedom. And it's not saying, okay, you can walk all over me and do whatever you want now. friends or family or intimate loved ones, it's creating new boundaries in that space of freedom.

Correct. Exactly.

You might still put people at a distance, but you feel like you have freedom from that relationship or from the past, right?

Yeah, and it's not even distancing, right? What it's essential, I'm not distancing myself from my husband or from my son when I set a boundary. What I am saying is, I have this need, I have this feeling that I'm taking responsibility for, and here is that limit because you're not a mind reader and I shouldn't expect you to know it. And if you can meet me in this limit, then what you get is like a happier mom, a more patient mom, a more loving wife, a more romantic wife, somebody who can show up as her fullest self because I just had this one small thing that I've asked you to do that you've said you're willing to do for the good of our relationship and for my own health and safety.

Yeah.

Freedom. How free do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10? 10 being ultimate freedom. And in these relationships that maybe you haven't opened the box yet.

I mean, I still would say like a 9. Wow. I do. And I think it's because I recognize that I am in control of how I choose to respond to these situations.

Right?

So I can't control what my mom does or says or whether she goes to therapy. I can't always control the way my husband shows up or my sister or my colleagues at work, but I can always control how I respond to those things. And that sense of empowerment, I think, that comes from boundaries, that come from my recovery practice, that come from therapy, that comes from my movement practice, like all of these things that require me to check in with myself and ask myself what I need and then realize that I have the power to act on that. Those are the things that bring me real freedom.

You and I have both been in relationships that we weren't in full alignment with the other, with our partners in the past. What do you think are the, the boundaries that people fail to set the most in these relationships that don't work and that continue not to work over time? What do we fail to set once we realize there's massive breakdowns?

Yeah. I mean, I think And this is the real challenge is that when you're in a relationship breakdown or things aren't going well and I hear stories like this from thousands of people all the time, right? Where it's like, I, in heterosexual relationships, the wife is doing all of the household management and all of the childcare and the expectations are only placed on her and it's like she is the default for everything and she has to ask her husband to help and pitch in and babysit his own kids and she comes to me and says, I don't know. what to do in this situation. The challenging thing is that at that point, you can't solve that with a simple boundary, right? The boundary has to be like, I am going to go to therapy myself to explore what my options are. Because at this point, the way this relationship is working is not working for me.

Right.

But if we go back to some of the things we've talked about even earlier on in a relationship, I think setting a boundary right away in a relationship immediately, even before you start dating, can be a super good litmus test for how well you can communicate. So it's like we're talking about going on a first date and it's like, oh, by the way, I don't drink. So I'd love to meet you for happy hour. I'll just have like a tea and see if there's pressure, see if that is weird, see if they give you like pushback on that. Or you can talk about, you know, before you get intimate, like by the way, you know, this is what I said to my husband, like by the way, you're wearing a condom. And until we both get STD tested and like swap tests, Right. That's gonna continue. And like, if that isn't respected, that's an immediate relationship ender for me.

Like, that's it, right?

So I think it can be helpful early on to set boundaries and relationships just to see how you discuss them, how you each view them, do they see it as selfish? And if so, can you have that conversation? Do they push back? How do they handle when you navigate that pushback? I think that can be really important.

What about with, Children, you know, as a parent, I don't have kids yet, so I can't relate to that. I can relate to my experience as a kid being obnoxious to my parents and probably driving them crazy and understanding that it's challenging for parents. How do healthy, conscious parents create healthy boundaries with kids without neglecting their kids emotions, feelings, and needs?

Yeah, I think the two are definitely not mutually exclusive. So I think the first thing that you can do as parents is model healthy boundaries for your kids. So it is me saying to my husband, like, Hey, I need a half an hour of alone time. I'm gonna go to my room. I'll come back out after I'm feeling a little bit more refreshed. Like when my son watches us do that, he recognizes that in this family, it's okay to say no, that people don't get mad when you say no, that mom's taking responsibility for her own feelings. So we've been modeling healthy boundaries. But I've had boundaries with my son from the very earliest age, and I have set boundaries on his behalf. So one of the earliest boundaries I set with him or for him was when you visit Grandma or Grandpa or Nana and Pop-Pop or Auntie Kelly and you don't see them very often, you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. We have to be polite and say goodbye and say thank you, but you can hug, you can kiss, you can wave, you can fist bump, you can make a funny face, you can high five whatever you want, but you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. And so we had this issue once with my mom where she was like, I really want to hug. I haven't seen him in such a long time. I only see him a few times a year. And I'm like, I get it. But he doesn't wanna hug you and like you need to respect that. And she did. And I recognized that it was disappointing for her. But also what I taught my son was that you have agency. And if you don't wanna hug, you don't have to. And so now, you know, I'll come sit next to him on the couch when he's nine and I'll be like, Hey, do you wanna watch Naked and Afraid? And like do a little snuggle? And he'll be like, I'd love to watch the show, but I don't wanna snuggle. I'm like, Cool, that's fine. Yeah, that's good. Wow. So we raised him in the culture of boundaries and he feels now comfortable setting boundaries with me. And boundaries really create a sense of safety for kids. They do because they realize that the adults in their household are taking responsibility for their own feelings, that boundaries are not about pushing other people away. They're about creating that sense of family in a way that works for everybody. And I think they feel really safe to my kid.

And what are the biggest boundaries you've had to create for yourself? Healthy boundaries for you individually? separate from family and loved ones.

Zillions. I think boundaries with yourself are so incredibly powerful because they only rely on one person to hold them.

Right.

And you can immediately reclaim your time, your energy, your capacity, your mental health, your physical space and sense of safety. Like that's an immediate benefit from you setting one boundary with yourself. The challenging thing is, that if you don't keep that boundary, like what's gonna happen, right? If you say to yourself, I'm not gonna check my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, which is one of my most beloved boundaries and the one that I've set for many, many years and the one that I still hold to, if I do roll over and check my phone before I go to the gym and do my meditation, like nobody's gonna jump out of the closet and slap the phone out of my hand.

So, but you're gonna know.

I will know. And what's gonna happen is that there will be a massive ripple effect to future Melissa? Really? I think about future me all the time. Tell me more. What is the decision that I'm making right now and how is it going to impact future Melissa? Because current Melissa is going to be so happy to just like stay up late and not start her bedtime routine and just do like one more, you know, show on Netflix. But what will this mean for future Melissa? She's going to be really mad at herself because she didn't get to bed on time. And then she's going to fall asleep late. And then she's probably not going to have as good a night's sleep. And then when she wakes up tomorrow, she's not going to be pumped for the gym. and she might even skip it because she's going to be tired. If she skips the gym before she does this interview, she's not going to be a good guess because she won't feel grounded and centered. When I play it out that way, it makes it a lot easier for me to be like, Go to bed. Because future Melissa will benefit. So I have boundaries with myself where I'm not checking my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, not checking my phone in the half hour before bedtime. So I'm not checking Twitter one more time or email one more time. I have really strong boundaries. Like when I'm out of office, I am out of office. Unless something is on fire, you do not call or text me and I will not be checking text messages or emails. So, you know, I think I set boundaries with myself pretty often because I know that they can be like an instant sense. They can give me an instant sense of freedom.

Yeah.

And nobody else has to even worry about it.

What's the boundary you set in the last two years for yourself that has given you the most benefit?

I think I've become more rigorous about what I say yes to in terms of work opportunities.

It's good.

It's hard as an entrepreneur not to feel like you have to or should say yes to everything. And like, if I don't say yes to this, maybe they won't ask me again. Or who knows what this lunch or coffee could turn into. But I think, I don't know if we talked about this, but like four years ago I got a concussion. I'm still going through post-concussion symptoms that are triggered by air travel, Events like this, speaking events, in-person events, any kind of stressor can set my concussion symptoms off. And that forced me to become more rigorous about what I say yes to. So now again, I kind of have this automatic pause before I say yes to anything. Even something that I think I'm super excited about, it's like quick pause. Can you work this into your schedule? Will you have capacity to do this? What else is this going to push off your plate? And is that acceptable to you? What are the things you're going to have to make up when you get back home? And then once I think about that, I either say yes or no. And if I say no, it's because, again, I know I'm serving future me. I can be disappointed, but I can also be happy that I've checked in with my own needs. So that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple of years, and I think it's made a big difference in my overall capacity.

Wow. Yeah.

What boundary are you to set for yourself next year that you haven't done yet?

I don't know. I'm not a New Year's resolution person. I tend to just take on these self-improvement as I stumble across them? Was I confused? Yeah, like I started my cold shower experiment, like in February, two years ago, just randomly. So I'm not a New Year's resolution person, and there is no one size fits all for boundaries. I won't know what my needs are next year until I get to next year, and then I'm in the moment and I go, you know, my context has changed, my capacity has changed, my goals have changed. Do I still, I'm always reevaluating my boundary. Do I still need a boundary here? And if so, is this the boundary that I need? because they should be flexible and I shouldn't keep a limit in place that no longer serves me. So I don't know, ask me next year.

What do you see since you've been working through this book for a while now? You've heard a lot of conversations from people, single in relationships, family challenges, different things. What do you see that society needs in general to create better and healthier boundaries around you.

Welcome to my favorite TED Talk.

It's just with social media, with work, with all the political stuff. Just what do people need in general moving into next year, you think?

I mean, we need honestly so much of the root of why boundaries feels like such an icky subject to so many people. And I will say, especially women, especially moms, is because we have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and toxic masculinity, which comes from the patriarchy, and religious influences and diet culture and trauma and the media. We have been conditioned for my entire life, and even going back further than that, to not have needs. To not have needs. To be selfless. Especially as a mom, we are praised the most when we are putting everyone else's needs and feelings and wants and desires above our own. Like we're not even on our own list. And if we're on the list, we're at the very bottom. And then when we do have a need and we speak it, we either hint about it because we've been told we can't be direct and then we're disappointed that people aren't reading our minds or we're direct about it and we're told that we're selfish or we're called a or any of those other monikers. So we have been conditioned to not have boundaries. societally. And I think there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do around what it means to have needs and to have those needs feel worthy. And the fact that, like, you of, you know, your own volition are valuable enough to advocate for those needs and then to remember that we have the power to advocate for those needs in a way that doesn't involve the other person. If I set a boundary with you, it can't Be dependent on what you choose to do. The boundary I set has to depend on me, the actions that I am willing to take in our relationship to keep myself safe and healthy.

Give me an example around that.

We're in an argument and it starts to get really, really heated. And I say to you, please don't speak to me like that. It's really making me feel unsafe. I don't like it when you use those words. It's getting personal and we're not focusing on the subject at hand. and you are really mad and really triggered and you kind of keep going with that, right? I can't depend on you to change your communication style. The only thing I can do is say, I won't stay in this argument if this is how we're gonna continue to talk about it. I'm gonna take a 10-minute break. After 10 minutes, I'll come back to see if you're ready. So I can't depend on you. If I go to my family's house and they're talking about politics and we don't agree with politics, I can say, Could we change the subject, please? And if they say no, then I have to enact my boundary, which is, okay, I'm gonna go for a walk.

Yeah, remove yourself.

I'm gonna leave the table, yeah. So all of that to say, we have a lot of unlearning to do about what it means to have needs and to advocate for those needs and to speak clearly and what that means as a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a man to speak clearly and directly, right? A man says it and he's decisive. A woman says it and she's aggressive, there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do, I think, before we can get to the point where we don't automatically think of boundaries as.

Selfish or controlling or manipulative. What I'm hearing you say is the boundary doesn't rely on another person's reaction. Or if they agree to it or not, it relies on you.

Yes.

Removing yourself in a conscious way from the situation.

Yes.

Independent of how they show up.

Correct. Now, I'm initially going to phrase most of my boundaries as a request.

Yes.

Right?

Because you didn't know I had a limit. So I'm gonna say to you, Hey, I could use a half hour of alone time. Would you mind if I go in my room? Or would you mind taking the dog for a walk or something? And if you say no, then my boundary is to remove myself. So I think that's another common misconception is that boundaries aren't about telling other people what to do or controlling other people. I may phrase my request. in that way as an invitation to meet me in my limit, but I always have a backup plan. This is what I'm gonna do.

Yeah, it sounds like you're using emotional intelligence language, which is, I have a request, this is my request, will you honor this request? Yes. As opposed to screaming at someone like, you,'re crossing my boundary.

Yes.

They didn't even know what the boundary was. Yes, I have boundaries. So making a request first and seeing if people will honor, respect it, or.

Renegotiate it in some way. If you want to accept that or not, it all kind of depends. Yes. I have this like green, yellow, red boundary framework that I've been using since the earliest days of my recovery where I evaluate sort of the level of threat that the boundary crossing has on our relationship. And I've got these three different levels of boundary communication. So if your mother-in-law shows up on your porch uninvited and you know, you really want her to call before you come over, but you've never said that before, I don't want you to like open the door and go like, Barbara, you're not welcome without calling first and slam the door. That's like a red level boundary. We don't need to start there. the green is, Hey, would you please call before you come over and give us at least an hour's notice? That would be really helpful. Thanks. That's your green, right? You're going in with a request. You're inviting her to meet it. Chances are she's gonna go, yeah, that's fine. Now, if she shows up on your door again after you've expressed that limit and it's not some kind of emergency, you're free to open the door and say, oh, Barbara, you didn't call and it's not a good time. Would you like to come back and visit this weekend?

Or should I just call you later on tonight?

Right?

That's you holding your boundary.

Sure.

Yeah.

And then red is what?

Red is you don't answer the door. Because you've asked now several times for her to call before she comes by. And it's not an unreasonable request. And so the answer is like you are not entitled to my time and home and space and family anytime you please. That does not feel unreasonable to me.

Yeah.

Especially if they've said yes, I honor your request and I will do this. And then if they say no, then you just say, okay, well, I'm not gonna open the door, maybe. Yeah. Maybe I will.

I won't, depending on how I feel. Exactly. Sometimes you have to live in the yellow. So this is really common with conversations around diet, body weight. If it's really ingrained in your family to talk about how much weight you've lost or whether or not this person has lost weight or how many calories you're consuming, and these conversations tend to happen around food, that can be really uncomfortable and triggering for some people. So you may say, Hey, I would prefer not to participate in conversations where we're talking about My body, your body, anyone's body, calories, can we just not talk about that? And they say yes, and then they bring it up at the table because it's very common like family culture. You might have to use that yellow limit and remind them, hey, we agreed not to talk about this. If you can't change the subject, I'm going to excuse myself from the table. You may have to live in the yellow for a while if you're trying to kind of change family patterns. But if they agree in the moment, they say, oh, yeah, you're right. I forgot. Then that's a win. And when you do that, when you continue to remind them eventually, they're gonna remember, they're gonna remind themselves, and that's how you change entire family dynamics.

Yeah, and people may agree to something and then forget. It might take a couple of times, and be like, that's my bad, you're right.

Yeah, sure.

How does someone create a better boundary around food? And where is the, why do people cross the boundary of consuming way more than they actually need for their bodies so frequently.

Yeah.

I feel like that's not an area where I have enough credentials or experience to talk about because there are so many factors involved in people's eating habits, right? There's physiological factors, there's stress factors, there's emotional factors, there's the impact of the kind of food that we're eating and the foods that are being marketed to us. I think there are a lot of reasons. And boundaries around food are tricky because you never want a boundary to feel punitive. So, do I have boundaries around food? Kind of, I guess, in that I don't eat foods that I know don't work for my body. But that's not like all the time. I don't eat gluten almost ever on a regular basis because I know it really messes with my digestion and my skin and my mood. But when my mom bakes her chocolate chip walnut cake 100% of the time, I'm like, yeah, I'm on it. So I think what I'm saying here is that my boundary isn't necessarily specific to like a food or drink. What my boundary is is I'm not going to automatically say yes or no until I check in with myself and ask myself, is it worth it? Do I want it? What's the context? How I'm feeling. So maybe the boundary is like, I just don't have an automatic yes or no. It's the very first question I ask is reflective.

I think the framework you have was around your future self. Would my future self have benefit from me making these choices?

Yes.

Whether it be around food or anything. Would my future self benefit from me staying up every night late, eating this extra food constantly? And if you ask yourself that and make decisions based on future self, usually good things happen.

I think so. I think it's important too, especially when it comes to food, to take a broader approach. I think early in my whole 30 career, I was very dogmatic. I actually have a line in my first book that said, the food that you eat either makes you healthier or less healthy. There is no in between. And I really believed that at the time. And now I understand that sometimes I eat a food that I know does not physically serve me and future Melissa is not gonna be like super happy with me for eating it.

Mentally and emotionally in the moment, it served you.

It's so good, it's like worth it, it's so good, it's 'cause my son made it, it's because it's my mom's annual like Cadbury Creme Egg, you know, shipment.

That's incredible. So it's a very, it's a broader, you know. My question is, but you're very, you know, conscious about what you're eating, you know, 98% of the time it sounds like, But why do you think for some people they just consume more and more than more of all bad unhealthy things than making choices to have healthier things most of the time? I mean, gosh, where do you think that comes from? That struggle?

I think we could start with systemic factors that make it really challenging for historically marginalized communities to make healthy food choices. So I think the conversation around food choices has to go back to some of the systemic factors around There are people who live in food deserts. There are people who don't have the time or financial resources or transportation to buy healthier foods. The fact that we have systemically packaged less healthy foods or less nutritious foods and made it so affordable and cost-effective. There are systemic factors. There are physiological factors.

Let's say people have the options. to buy healthy foods or unhealthy foods. Let's say there's a-- Sure. Okay. Why do you think-- because you mentioned how, okay, if my son makes this or there's a Cadbury egg and it serves me in this moment to feel good or connected to my son or my mom or whatever, because I'm gonna eat this cake. There are some people might say, well, that serves me every day to have this milkshake. It serves me right now. And I can create that moment every moment for myself because I love sugar. Right, so it's like I can do that every day. Why do you think, you know, how do we shift it to making healthier habits and decisions when we have those options to eat healthy? Let's say some people that may not have that option, I get it. For those that do, is it emotional? Is it mental? Is there a wound inside of them? You know, what is the thing that draws people back? I know the addictiveness of certain foods, is hard to break as well.

Definitely.

I get that from sugar.

Yeah.

But is there anything else?

I mean, physiologically, when we are under stress, we crave foods that give you fast, easy energy, right? We are living in like this sort of biologically mismatched time period where we have the same kind of ancient cues that we had when we were hunting and gathering in today's food today's food landscape where like all of the sugar and all of the energy is like immediately available to anybody at all times. And when we're stressed, the body naturally moves us into this state of like, I need quick and easy energy. And we're all stressed all the time. You know, and your body doesn't know the difference between you being super stressed all the time with financial concerns or trauma, unprocessed trauma or relationship issues and being chased by a man-eating tiger. So like you are, biologically craving these foods. And then you've got food companies who are layering salt on top of sugar, on top of fat, on top of salt, and making them calorie-dense and nutrient-poor and super normally stimulating. They are designed to make you crave and overconsume. And then we're lonely and we don't have other coping mechanisms. We haven't learned or been modeled other healthier coping mechanisms and food is really cheap and really accessible. It tastes good. And it tastes really good, yeah. So I think there are a lot of reasons. It's hard to pinpoint just one. I can only speak to my own experience and my own past unhealthy relationships with food where it was literally like I went from using drugs and then I stopped using drugs and then I used food the way I used to use drugs.

How'd you overcome that?

Slowly over time, but honestly my first Whole30 back in 2009 was what opened my eyes up to that because the foods that I was normally using and drinks, alcohol, were to self-soothe and relieve anxiety and numb and distance and distract during that whole 30. They weren't available to me anymore. And I still have the same feelings. And I was like, well, now I have to do something with them. So, you know, I started journaling again, and I talked more to people in my life, and I started writing more and using that as kind of an outlet to process. So for me, that was a really eye-opening experience. And I think it can be, the whole 30 can be for so many people.

But what are the three healthiest ways you self-soothe?

Oh, today. Time in nature, hands down. I'm an avid hiker, year-round hiker. I call it church. That's where I talk to God. It's where I talk to myself. It's where I check in. It's where I process things. So the first thing I always do is get outside. Even, you know, and I live in Utah, so we have some beautiful hiking trails. So that's the first thing. I talk about my feelings more than I ever have in my own, my whole life. I will either say to my husband or my sister, who are kind of my two, like, biggest confidants, like, I need to download something. What I am about to say is not at all logical. It's not at all true. Like, I will come to that on my own time. I don't need you to tell me how ridiculous I'm being, but I need to get it out. Like, can you just listen? And they'll be like, yep, let's go for it. Right? And that's super helpful. And then once I've done that, I'm.

Like, you- feel a lot better.

Yeah, I feel much better. Sometimes you just have to, I think allow space for whatever it is you're feeling, which is something I never used to do. I didn't like allowing space for feelings that I thought were not productive. and now I'm like, no, no, no, this is a feeling and we're gonna give it its moment.

What happened to you or what would happen to you when you would not express feelings?

I always describe it as, I would eat it. I would eat it or I would swallow it. Like, I physiologically would push it right down into my stomach or reproductive parts, wherever it went, and I would just bury it. And it made me really, really sick.

Wow.

Like, physically sick and emotionally sick and spiritually sick. And yeah. So now what I do is I say, oh, this does not feel good. Let's give it a moment. Let's just sit with it, right? I don't force myself to be grateful all the time. I don't force myself to look on the bright side if I'm feeling really bummed about something. I don't need to find a silver lining in it in this moment. Let's just let this suck.

Feel the feelings, yeah. It's interesting you say that because I haven't heard many women talk about stuffing their feelings and not expressing them, not having a place to talk about their feelings to at least one girlfriend or their mom or sisters.

Yeah.

But when I wrote the book, the Mask of Masculinity, I went on a journey of just researching and probably, I don't know, 95% of men grew up without the ability, thinking they had the ability to express their feelings because of the pressures that men face as well, different from women, obviously. And when I did the book tour for the book, I had about 50-50 men and women in the room. And I would ask the women in the room, I'd say, How many of you talk about your feelings at least once a week to a girlfriend or a friend or mom or therapist, and almost the whole room almost would put their hands up, all the women in the room. And I say, how many of you guys keep your hands up if you do this every day? You're on the phone with someone, they say yes. And then I say, okay, to the guys in the room, how many of you, once a month, talk about your feelings, your insecurities, your body issue, your relationship challenges, anything? Maybe two hands out of hundreds would raise their hand. once a month and I say, are you guys part of a church group, like a men's church group that does this mandatory essentially? And they all kind of laugh because most of them are part of like a group that had to go somewhere once a month to talk about their feelings.

Just to do it, yeah.

And I said, men, how many of you do this once a year? You talk about their feelings. Most of the men would never raise their hand. And I said, ladies, how would this make you feel if you didn't talk about it for a week, a month, a year, or your whole life like most of the men in this room? And most women would be like, I would kill myself. I'd go crazy. I'd be an alcoholic. I would overeat. I would do this. And I go, well, look at the challenges that men face as well. It doesn't mean there's not different challenges for women, but imagine the emotional suffering that a lot of men face when they don't communicate and feel like they have a safe space to land. Whether that be with another male friend, a female friend, someone.

Yeah.

That's why I think it's so important you're talking about this because I think you can relate to probably a lot of men from that experience.

I spent five years putting things up my nose.

Exactly.

Yeah, I absolutely do.

You can relate to it.

Yeah.

Now I think, you know, when humans don't express their feelings in a healthy way, don't have a safe space to express them, men, women, whoever, bad things happen.

Yeah.

That's why I think we see a lot of pain and suffering in the world and a lot of war and dis-ease that's happening caused by a lot of men because they don't have the space to share. And that's why I think it's so important you're talking about boundaries, talking about healing, talking about creating a healthy boundary with yourself. Yeah. Opening up, expressing yourself. And I think I hope more people hear this message. Men and women and every human hears this message about opening up their feelings. And it can be journaling. It doesn't have to be expressing it to social media every day. It can be journaling, talking to a therapist, talking to friend. It can look different for everyone.

It should. Yeah, it can and it should. And I think, again, boundaries are a great way to start that opening up because you don't want to vomit every feeling you've ever had in a space that might not be safe for you. So you can set limits with different people, with social media groups, with whatever that looks like, to be able to start sharing in a way that does feel safe. And then hopefully expand those limits as you gain confidence with sharing your feelings and as you're affirmed because you're sharing.

With the right people.

Right.

Yeah.

So you said you were with drugs and alcohol addiction, right?

Not alcohol. I never drank.

Yeah, just a lot of drugs. Do you think if you would have expressed your feelings more regularly, you would do less drugs at that time?

I would never have started doing drugs. Really? The only reason I started doing drugs was because at 16 I was sexually assaulted. I didn't tell anyone for a year when I did tell my family, They didn't handle it well and they said, We can't tell anyone. We need to keep it quiet or it will hurt the family. And I felt like I had no outlet whatsoever. They put me in therapy, but like, I didn't want to talk about it.

But you couldn't talk about it to your family?

I couldn't talk about it to my family. I had internalized the message that obviously it was my fault. Obviously I had done something wrong. And so I began looking for things to numb that experience and to numb these feelings that I had been shoving down. Controlling my eating that didn't work. I tried drinking that didn't work.

And then I found drugs and I.

Was like, this is it.

Here we are.

It made you feel better.

Yeah.

It was a coping mechanism. It took me away. It was the first thing that took me as far away from myself as I wanted to be.

And then I spent five years doing it. Wow.

Yeah.

So how did you start to shift out of that? Was it talking about your feelings more? Like, when did the process change to a different coping mechanism?

Well, I mean, it started when I went into rehab twice. I went in twice, right? The second time it really stuck and I decided I was going to really change every aspect of my life and really become this healthy person with healthy habits. That was really the first time I ever set boundaries around my addiction and my recovery. And I think that's what changed it for me. That's why I didn't have a second relapse. But then it was just a process. So I started exercising and I certainly exercised to an unhealthy degree, but then that modulated itself and then I started eating healthier and my first whole 30 and was like, oh, wow, the way you're using food is not super healthy. And, you know, then I went back to therapy and started talking about more things, but not all the things. And I went through my divorce and really started talking about all the things. So it's been like a process for sure.

Wow.

Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, I'll talk to you two or three years from now and be like, oh, since we've talked, I've done, like, X, Y, and.

Z, and here are the other things I've done.

But what's the thing you're most proud of, Melissa? I'm like a way better mom than I ever thought I would be. I'm a really good mom. I have a well of patience for my child that nobody in my life, myself included, knew existed. And I have a sense of love for him that I've never before experienced and like never will again. I'm a way better mom than I thought I would be and I'm really Proud of that.

That's beautiful. That's really cool.

I love my kiddo.

That's really cool. Just wait till he's a teenager, right? Yeah, see if you have patience.

I can say that now. He's nine. He's in a nice little sweet spot now.

How do you learn to let go of a relationship or relationships with people that don't respect your boundaries?

So this is the thing. If your boundary is you telling other people what you are willing to do to keep yourself safe and healthy, that doesn't always mean that the outcome is like desirable. If you're talking about boundaries at work and they won't respect them, are you willing to transfer departments, go to HR, look for a new job? If it's boundaries with a family member and they will not respect them to the point where it is seriously harming your relationship, your physical health, your mental health, are you willing to cut that person off? Are you willing to take a break from them? or seriously limit the way that you choose to engage with them. We will communicate only via email and text at this point, not in person, not on the phone. You have actions that you are able to take, but that doesn't mean that those actions are always easy or always your desired outcome. And then what you have to ask yourself is, how willing am I to let this person continue to harm me for the sake of preserving this relationship? What would that look like? What does it look like? And are there limits that I can set in between letting them run me over exactly the way they are and cutting off the relationship altogether? Because there are a lot of things I think that you could do in between to preserve the relationship in a way that works for you. You just have to be willing to find it and then ultimately hold it for yourself. Yeah.

Oh, man.

I know. It's not easy, but I don't want to be in a relationship that makes me feel like crap every time I show up or that doesn't allow me to be my fullest self or that like hurts me every time I'm there.

It's not worth it.

I don't think that it is. And I can't make that decision for anybody else. If you say like, no, I, she's my mom and I want to maintain a relationship with my mom and like it, she's family and I'm going to then like that's your decision, but I want you to go into it, eyes open.

Yeah, and I think there's, listen, I think there's, I used to get really annoyed with my mom, right? I think because I'm the youngest of four and I used to feel like she always treated me like a baby. Even today, it's like I'm doing so much for her and different things, but she still treats me a certain way sometimes. It's like, okay, mom, don't do this. It's like this little annoyance, right? And it wasn't until a few years ago where I said, you know what? I'm just gonna accept her for it. I may not like it, I may not enjoy it, but how can I change my response and my feeling towards it? How can I tell a different story to myself about how my mom shows up? Is it the worst thing in the world? Is it like ruining my day? No, it's an annoyance that I grew up with this feeling. And if I want to have a deeper, healthier relationship with my mom, as she continues to get older, I want her in my life. I don't want to distance myself because some things she says or does annoys me every now and then. It's not like she's, trying to ruin my life, right? It's just her way of being. And I've communicated what I don't like and it's still happening. It's like, okay, then do I want her in my life? Yes. Is she gonna be this way? Yes. Okay, do I get to love and accept her for who she is and shift the narrative within me and have more patience like you said and learn how to deal with it?

Yeah.

Absolutely, if that's the relationship I want. And since doing that over the last couple of years, it doesn't annoy me as much anymore. I'm kind of like, okay, I just kind of laugh it off as opposed to get frustrated. Yes. Because I chose to be different around the situation. So there are nuances to it as well, I think.

There absolutely are, and this is why there's no one size fits all boundary scenario. Because what might feel like an annoyance to you might be really harmful to somebody else. What one family is like, oh my gosh, how could you interact like that as a family? That wouldn't work for us as somebody else's, like absolutely drop over whenever you want. You don't even have to knock. There is no one size fits all.

The door is always open. You can stay anytime you want.

But I do like this idea of asking myself, what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And is there some examination of that that I could do on my end?

Can I be more flexible or more accepting? Unless it's some extreme thing where you don't feel safe, then create the boundary. You need space, you need, okay, cool. But if your mom's just being annoying every now and then, like, okay, just love her and accept her and just move on.

I think so.

Well, the book you have, the Book of Boundaries, is a game changer. It's about setting the limits that will set you free. And I think the thing that most people want is freedom. We talked about it. It's something I wanted my entire life that I struggled with. I didn't feel free internally. And the process of creating agreements with myself, creating agreements with others, and healing and integrating that healing process throughout life is what has allowed me to be more and more free every day. And so if you guys are looking for freedom, make sure you get a copy of this book. You can go to MelissaU.com, it'll have the book there. You can get it there. It's on Amazon as well, the book of boundaries or anywhere else you guys get books. How else can we be of service and support to you today, Melissa?

I like that you asked that question. Thank you. This conversation was everything. I always love coming in here to talk to you, and I always feel like you get me to share more than I thought I was going to, but in, like, a really safe and authentic way. So I appreciate that. I, I always enjoy our talks. Thank you.

Of course. Of course. I want to acknowledge you, Melissa, for taking on this challenge of talking about this, because I think I think you're similar to me in some ways that I write the books that I need.

Yeah, yes.

Whole 30 was for you.

Yes.

The book of boundaries is for you.

Yes.

You were like, I didn't have any boundaries, let me learn this process and then write about my findings and how it's helped me.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I do the interviews that I need, right? It's like the things that I do as well. So I want to acknowledge you for taking, having the courage to take on this topic. create boundaries in a healthy way in your life and all your relationships because it can be very challenging if you've lived a majority of your life without them, having to shift into becoming the person who creates healthy agreements and boundaries in your life with yourself and with others. So I acknowledge you for taking this on and for sharing this wisdom with so many people that could use this book. This question I think I've asked you before, but I'm going to ask you again. It's a three truths question. So imagine a hypothetical scenario, it's your last day on earth. Many years away. You live as long as you want to live, but then eventually you gotta go. And you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish. You've seen your kid grow up and live a great life, you've had a great marriage, all the things you want, they happen. But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go with you. Books, work, this interview is gone. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. Three things you know to be true for you.

Yes.

And that's all we have to remember you by these three truths. What would those be for you?

The first one is that you can trust yourself. Hard stop. I mean, do I have to pick three? If I just shared that one, would that be enough? I think the other thing I would say is connect more than you think you need. I'm literally talking to myself.

Right now.

And I think the third is find joy.

Find joy.

Seek it. Look for it. Love those.

Yeah.

Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

Showing up as my full self everywhere I go.

There you go.

Just like that.

Love it. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

If you got value from that, then.

Go ahead and stick around for more.

Coming up right now. You're the co-creator of Whole30 program, which I started, I think, a year ago, maybe. I can't remember if it was a year ago, eight months ago. My girlfriend Jen told me we should check this out. And I was like, man, I have to give up so much. But I did, and I looked the best and felt the best I've ever felt. I remember having a photo shoot like a week and a half into it. and these photos were, you know, I just looked so lean and healthy and clear. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And I remember when I went to Whole Foods to look for foods, I saw Whole 30 stamps on the bacon that we were just talking about.

Yeah.

And I was like, wow, this person has really created something if the food industry is getting behind it and putting labels on their food and the packaging. So congrats on everything. Thank you. You've sold, what, two million copies or. No, million copies.

Two million. You can put it out there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll get to two million. So 2 million copies in 2 years is what I meant to say. And you've got a new book coming out called the Whole 30 Day by Day, your daily guide to Whole 30 success. Now how is that different than the Whole 30? So the Whole 30 is kind of.

Like your go-to practical application how to do the program. So for people who want to go in and they need all the help that they can get with planning and preparing, we teach them how to cook. So like how to grill a chicken breast, how to roast some vegetables, all the basics, and then give them a bunch of recipes. So it's kind of like your step-by-step, This is how to do the program.

Whole 30.

Exactly, yeah. But what I've learned along the way with like watching hundreds of thousands of people go through it is that people want as much help as they can get, especially around food, because food is so emotional. So Whole 30 day by day is essentially the last two and a half years of me watching people go through the program, observing what they experience on any given day and figuring out how to support them on that specific day. So it's like part field manual, part guided reflection. It's motivation and support and tips and tricks and habit and a little habit research and a testimonial related to that day for all 30 days of the program. And then there's some guided reflection because the more closely connected you stay to the process, the better chance you have of making that habit stick. So it's kind of like your field manual, your companion to the 30-day book.

Got it. Now you started this program in 2009, correct?

Yeah.

Why did you wait six years to come out with a book?

Well, the first book, it starts with food, came out in 2012.

Got it.

So three years and it starts with food is kind of like the science behind the program, the why. So if you're a Gretchen Rubin questioner and you want to know, you know, why you're doing what you're doing and have to understand the science behind it, that's the book you start with. But it took three years for that book to come out because we were just making the program good and like wanted to get it in people's hands and see how it did and see how we could support them and just like, you know, we weren't thinking about selling books. We were just thinking about how many people can we reach.

How could you help reach?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. And then you decided to come out with Whole 30. Yeah. Why did you come out with the.

Book at that time?

Yeah.

So 2012 we wrote it starts with food. It explained a bit about the Whole 30, how to do the program, some of the science behind it. And we were like, cool. Okay, phew. We're done.

Yeah.

Nobody's gonna need. This is it. You can do the Whole 30. And we're gonna be able to talk about other stuff. You know, we can talk about exercise.

We can talk about sleep, whatever we're interested in.

And then everyone who read it starts with food was like, awesome. I love knowing this.

But I like this one chapter, the whole 30.

How do I actually do the program? And we were like, oh, people need way more information. So that's where, like, everything I've ever written is because the community has said, yeah, I need this to be successful. And I'm like, okay, I can write that for you. Cool. So that's where the whole 30 came from, was people saying like, okay, cool.

But tell me exactly what to do.

Right.

Now, did you expect it to be as big as it is? No, of course. You're like, people are gonna love this.

It's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be bigger than paleo. Oh, goodness. No. I mean. I knew it was a good program because we had a lot of people coming back reporting really similar remarkable results. And I had remarkable results in it. So I knew it was good. But no, of course not. You never think about writing a book or having it grow or seeing your logo on bacon and whole30.

Crazy, right? How many food products is your logo on that you're aware of?

I feel like we have about maybe 70 or 80 whole30 approved partners that.

Have your logo on their food.

It's really crazy. Yeah, we're insane. you're gonna see it in 70 partners.

Yeah.

On packaging.

So I don't think everyone has it. Maybe it's on their website. But yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got some big brands in the works, like. And we're really selective about who we.

Choose to partner with, too.

Really selective.

Now, do they reach out to you or do you reach out to them?

They reach out to us.

No way.

They say, can we partner with you and say this is Whole30 approved?

Yes.

Yeah.

Is it because they're getting requests, so.

Many requests online or in their service box, it's like, hey, is this Whole30 approved? I think so. We're working with a really big brand right now who just reformulated their bacon so that it was no sugar added. And I outreached to them and said, like, did you do this with Whole30 in mind? And they were like, yeah, we want to partner with you. And, like, it's in the works. It'll probably be out in January.

Wow. Yeah.

It's like we're changing things. And I wonder if people are buying those products more. Oh, yes, of course they are.

Like, oh, I can't have these other things. I can only have this. Because here's the thing. Whole30 is kind of lowest common denominator. If you're paleo, if you're Primal, if you're gluten free, if you're dairy free, if it's got a Whole30 label on it, you know you can eat it. So it's sort of like, you know, you get that stamp of approval and it opens up that food to a variety of different populations, not just people on the whole 30.

Wow.

So, yeah.

Now, why did you get into this in the first place? That's a search for food and, like, healthy living.

Yeah.

In the first place.

Well, okay.

I wasn't always super healthy, and I kind of came to Fitness and Health when I got out of rehab for drug addiction.

Okay.

So I spent my college years, basically. high for about four and a half years. And what type of high? You know, I was an equal opportunity user. I didn't have a drug of choice, which I think is unusual according to my rehab intake counselor. But I just. I only dated drug dealers for, like, three years, and they had access to a lot of things. And so I basically, like, did everything I could get my hands on. Where'd you go to school?

I got really lucky.

University of New Hampshire.

All the drug dealers up in New Hampshire.

I mean, there are drug dealers everywhere. and I could find them if, yeah, wherever I was.

What was the draw to dating drug dealers?

I, you know, when I found, when I found drugs, it was like the thing I was missing or looking for to help me sort of run away from some stuff that I, like, wasn't dealing with. And having access to that all the time just basically kept me right. Oblivious.

What were those things you were running from?

Oh, it all started when I was a teenager and experienced some sexual abuse by someone who was really close to me. And it was a lot of like manipulation and I was really, it was my first experience with sex and I was really young and it was someone I was supposed to be like trustworthy and I didn't tell anyone for a really long time and when I finally started telling people they didn't handle it super well and I felt really abandoned. Yeah, it's this whole big long thing.

How did they not handle it well? They just made you wrong or a little bit.

I feel like some of the people who were the closest to me who should have taken care of me were so overwhelmed by what to do with this information that they just chose to pretend it didn't exist, which left me feeling really abandoned. And so, you know, I was very young. I wasn't self-aware at all. I didn't really know what to do with this information and. so I was looking for something to like not keep me here. Recover and yeah. And I tried drinking and that didn't work. I didn't like it. I tried not, you know, controlling other things in my life and when I found drugs I was like, oh, okay, cool. You feel better now?

This is what I do now.

Yeah.

Wow.

So why did you start when you were like 17, 18 or... No, I.

Didn'T tell anyone about the abuse until I was about 18. And I didn't start taking drugs until my freshman year of college.

So it was about 19 and then I picked it up.

Fast.

What gave you the courage to even tell someone? I never had the courage to tell you.

Yeah, I've read your story. It was necessity. This was a person who was in my life. He was very close with my family.

It wasn't a family member, but a close friend.

Yeah, it was a family member.

Yeah.

And he would just, you know, continue to act like nothing was wrong and I would be expected to just like continue to do things. And he showed up at my house one day to pick me up to go for a drive. And I basically freaked out and told my dad was home and I told my dad. No way. Yeah, I just I couldn't, like- With him there? Yeah, or I don't remember if he was there or if I sent him away, but basically I had like this giant freak out and then kind of.

Told him and then it was this whole big mess.

Your dad was like close to this person probably.

Yeah, my dad.

Yeah, my dad almost killed him.

No way.

I mean it was yeah, right? That's- well, how did that make you feel?

When he kind of stood up for you that way or- yeah, I didn't I was you know, it's funny because I've had conversations with my dad after the fact. and it's interesting reconciling what I remember as a teenager with hearing his story now. And like, I'm almost seeing it from two different viewpoints, like 16 year old Melissa and adult Melissa. And I think at the time, I didn't realize kind of what was going on behind the scenes with how my parents were choosing to handle it and stuff. All I knew was that like something went horribly wrong and I didn't know what to think about it and I didn't know how to handle it. And it was probably my fault in some way. And so, yeah, I don't think I was even aware of how it was being handled. I just know I felt really like lost.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've literally never talked about that before.

Wow. Did your dad... Were you able to talk about it more with your dad or was it just kind of like... Yep.

Yep. I talk with him quite a bit about it now very openly and I feel really good about it. He's been incredibly supportive.

That's good.

Yes, it's really good.

But other people in your family weren't supporting you, is what you're saying.

You know, family dynamics are really hard. I'll just be diplomatic about that. And it can be really hard. You know, when you, when you take a look at something like that, when you really look at it, you have to accept a whole lot of information about what was going on at that time and the way you reacted and, and the truths that you learned as a kid. And, like, it's complicated. I will say everyone did the best they could. I truly believe that. I really think they did the best they could. And I'm a parent now. and I think about how I would handle that situation and like, you just don't know, you know, it's unfathomable.

It's crazy, right? It is one of four women, one in six men. Yeah. Sexually abused.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's crazy. It is. I feel like I was having a conversation the other day with someone who said that they will never have, like, a babysitter. They're only gonna have, like, you know, the grandmother or, like, a family member. But even then, it's like, who knows?

No, you never know.

I know.

You never know. And that's the hardest part, right? I don't expect anyone to have been able to, like, you can't see something like this coming. No. You know, I, in retrospect, probably exhibited a lot of, you know, right after that event, I became kind of a wild child. Like, I was a good kid. I studied super hard, got straight A's, was like, you know, read my books and, like, did what I was supposed to do. And then things kind of started going wrong. I was sneaking out of the house and lying to my parents. And, like, in retrospect, if I have.

A kid and something like that happens.

You have to ask, like, why the shift? Right. What's happening? Yeah. But again, hindsight, right? Hindsight, people, they did the best they could with what they had.

Wow. Okay, so you went off to school, started, you found drugs, felt the feeling you were looking for. And when did the drugs, when did you realize like, oh, I have a problem or this isn't working for me or this is not what I want to do anymore?

Yeah, you know, you do this thing to take you away from this other thing because this is a problem. And then this thing becomes a problem and then you're like, oh, crap, now I have two problems, right? So, you know, I ended up having to drop out of school because I wasn't doing well. I moved down to Virginia to live with my dad for a little while until my behavior down there became so erratic because they found a drug dealer in Virginia too. No way. Of course I did. Yeah. And my behavior down there became very erratic. So I moved back home with my mom and I kind of ping-ponged around. And my mom had a new husband at the time who was like, you know, your daughter's on drugs, right? My mom has no experience with this and was like, no way, that can't be possible, you know? And eventually the wheels started to come off my bus in a pretty serious way. Really? And I had a boyfriend I was living with at the time who, bless him. Drug dealer? Nope. Not a drug dealer.

The like guy that I picked up, the good guy. The like good guy.

You made him wrong for everything probably, didn't you? I don't think I took very good care of him at the end. I don't think so. But he took good care of me. There was one night where he just said to me, like, you need, I'm gonna get you help tonight or I'm leaving.

Wow. And he did.

He called. He called and they had a bed for me. And we literally went, like, in an hour. I was in their rehab facility.

Wow.

I know.

Nice of him. My favorite ex-boyfriend that's great.

I do.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. But he stood for you.

Me too. And then what happened after that? Went to rehab, got clean. How long did that take? Like, 30 days. You're, like, impatient for four weeks and then outpatient for a month or two. I had started working with a really great therapist who I worked with until, like, two or three years ago. Like we're talking, you know, many, many years of me working with this guy who really helped me kind of get through like the abuse and like unpack all of that stuff. Was clean for a year and then relapsed for a month or so and then pulled myself out of my hole. Said, okay.

By yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

You realize like, oh, this isn't working.

This is not okay.

And then- what type of drugs are we talking here?

I did a lot of, I never shot up and I never I never smoked crack. Those were the two.

Got it.

I did a lot of heroin. I did a lot of ecstasy. I did a lot of hallucinogens. I smoked a lot of pot, like a lot of pills.

Yeah.

Basically whatever.

Yeah. Okay.

But it was when I got clean for the final time, which was like 2000, that I found fitness.

Really?

Yeah.

That became your nutrition. And healthy addiction, right?

Maybe for a little while, like over exercise, but that modulated itself really quickly. Yeah, I just. I felt like I had to change everything about me and my life to stay clean. I had to get new friends. I got rid of clothes. I stopped listening to certain music. I moved. I started going to the gym. I made new girlfriends who, like, my goal was basically for me to tell people about my addiction story and have them be like, what? That I can't picture that. Like, that was what I wanted, was to remove myself so far from that situation.

You changed your entire environment and everything you did.

I did.

It's great.

Yeah. Growth mindset.

Right.

I didn't know it at the time, but that's what I was doing.

I was embracing, like, this massive growth mindset.

This was 2000.

Yeah. So you got into fitness and then nutrition.

Yeah.

And when did you start to feel like, okay, I'm back on track to.

A normal lifestyle or, like, a fulfilling lifestyle? I don't know that it was ever a moment. I just know that the farther along I got, the more I felt really settled in my new life, the more I felt like I had really good coping mechanisms. I still have some. buffers in place still.

What does that mean?

I'm 18 years from using drugs, right? I'm almost 18 years clean and I still won't keep narcotics in my house. So when I had my son, I had an emergency C-section and they gave me pain pills and I gave them to his dad and I said, you keep these, you don't tell me where they are, you only give them to me if you think I need them, right? Protect yourself.

Just protect yourself.

Otherwise you can go right back into... I just want to create as much of a buffer between me and that behavior as possible. But there was definitely a point where I was like, okay, I'm definitely a new person. I can't imagine no matter how like bad or crazy things get that I would go back to that.

Mm-.

Wow.

And it took a few years.

Yeah.

Okay. And so then you started, you became a nutritionist, right?

Yes. Sports nutritionist. I was running a CrossFit gym. I was traveling with CrossFit, coaching people in kettlebells.

So you got into this before CrossFit was big, right?

You were kind of like, Kind of in the beginning, yeah.

2005, 2006, earlier stages. Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow. A friend of a friend of mine that I played college football with won the CrossFit Games, I think in 2008 or 2009. Yeah. Graham Holmberg, I don't know if you know him. Oh, I don't know him, yeah. He was the guy before Rich Froning. Yes. Went on to win, like, however many in a row.

Yeah.

So you got in early into that.

Community and you created a CrossFit gym. You must have been one of the.

First CrossFit gyms, right? I was like the second one in New Hampshire. No way. Yeah, it was cool.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And After you became a sports nutritionist, were you trying to get clients as a sports nutritionist or was it more the gym thing or what was the--.

I was just doing it part-time. I had like a nine to five job that I really liked that I was like, I had gone back to college. I got my bachelor's and I was working this nine to five job that I loved and I was advancing and.

Like doing really well there.

And I was just doing this like gym stuff on the side. Really? Yeah. I was training clients, which I loved. I was doing some nutrition consulting, like very casually, just based on my own experience and some of the research I was doing. Rob Wolf was kind of a mentor of mine. so yeah, so when he had overflow clients, he kind of send them my way and I was working with them. It was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I learned a lot. And then I figured out the more I was doing with them with nutrition, the better results they got in the gym. And that was, and my kind of area of interest was like working with women in nutrition specifically telling women it was okay for them to like eat more.

Uh-huh.

Which was, I think a new concept for a lot of them, even in the CrossFit world at that time.

Eat more, but certain things, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, like you don't have to starve yourself.

Yeah, when I was on Whole 30, I was eating pretty much anything all the time because I was missing out on sugar.

Yeah.

Give me an apple and almond butter. I was like, dying.

Yeah, well, that's that emotional relationship that I discovered really early on, too. It's crazy.

It's so critical. Yeah. Yeah, but then after a while, you start to not need it as much, you know?

Yeah.

At the end of the 30-day, I actually went, I think it went 45 days. I was trying to go after 30 days of doing it, I was like, I'm gonna do another 30.

Yeah.

45 and then I kind of like started to cheat a little and then I was like, all right, sure. But it was amazing and it felt amazing. I'm glad. Now, do you stay whole 30 24/7 365 or is it just like, of course not.

That's not the point. Yeah, I get it. What is the point? So we talk about the whole 30 and then living your food freedom, right? And food freedom is not me telling you what to eat 365 days a year. There is no one size fits all diet. And all the exercise and diet gurus say this, right? Oh, there's no one size fits all. You have to figure it out for yourself. and then people are like, cool, how do I figure it out? And the whole 30 is how you figure it out. It's you eliminate, you reintroduce, you bring little things back. You compare your experience and then based on what you've learned, you get to decide what's worth it for you in life after. And that's how you create the perfect diet for you. So that's what I've done. There's stuff that I bring back in on a really regular basis. Rice and my shoot, my sushi, no big deal. Hummus, no big deal. The occasional, like, glass of white wine, no big deal. And then there's stuff that I never eat because I know it messes me up so bad that it's just not worth it. And then there's like in between goat cheese. It's like the worst for me for some reason. It makes my stomach so unhappy.

I know.

But I don't miss it because it makes me feel like junk.

When I came back off the Whole30.

I had like a thing of hummus and man it messed me up. Yeah, hummus can do that too. I think maybe because I had like, I was like, well maybe because I had the whole jug of hummus and.

So maybe that's why or maybe it was like the pita bread that I had, I don't know, like a combination of everything. Maybe it's because on an empty stomach. Yes, and this is why reintroduction is so carefully structured, because we want you to learn as much as you can from the experiment, right? Bring stuff back in really carefully and deliberately and figure out, you know, that way you're not asking yourself, is it.

The hummus or is it the pita bread?

You know for sure.

Yeah.

And I kind of... Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. There are always opportunities. But the thing is, like, so many people I talked to who go on the Whole30 get great results.

Yeah.

You know, and it becomes a conversation, it's like a thing you can do together with friends. Me and my girlfriend did it together. You know, my entertainment lawyer did it and he got great results and then just keeps spreading. Yeah.

Which is amazing.

Yeah. I feel like this is different.

There's so many diet books out there or like nutrition books out there. Yeah. But I feel like this is one that's really sustainable for people where the people get great results and they can always come back to.

Yes.

And because it is like just the whole foods.

Yeah.

It's like vegetables.

Yeah.

And meat. It's really easy.

All you're doing is like picking from the shopping list. Yes. And you're not counting calories and you're not tracking and you're not weighing and you're not measuring. And here are like a thousand recipes you can pick from and you can just put ingredient meals together if you want. Like once you get the hang of.

It, it's actually pretty easy. Yes. Now I want to ask about, because you started this with your ex-husband.

Yeah.

You started this program.

Yeah.

Was it your idea?

Was it his idea? Was it... I mean, he was the one who suggested it in the first place. We had gone, he had been doing, he's a physical therapist. Uh huh. He had been doing some research into dietary factors that impact rheumatoid arthritis because his little sister had RA. Got it. and came across a paper from Lauren Cordain, who's like the Paleo OG about lectins and certain foods. And as a physical therapist, he had had this shoulder injury that he just could not heal. And he removed some of these lectins, foods from his diet, and his shoulder pain cleared up miraculously and never returned, which really got his attention. And then we, he had, was eating a lot of beans, he was eating a lot of oatmeal, he was eating a lot of like grains, and that was the stuff he pulled out. and the shoulder pain got better.

Yeah.

So when we went to.

Some people aren't affected by that.

Right.

They're not affected by the grains or the.

Yeah. It affects different people in different ways to various degrees. And, like, I'll be different stages of your life, too. That also could be it.

Right.

If you're experiencing a lot of life stress and you're chronically underslept and overtrained, then maybe those factors have more.

Right.

This is the whole point of self-experimentation because there's no one size fits all. So we had gone to a seminar that Robb Wolf had given where he was talking about paleo, which what Dallas had researched. And Rob was like, you know, just try it for 30 days. And that's basically what Dallas proposed to me. We were doing this really heavy Olympic lifting session, and we were sitting around afterward, and I was eating thin mints. I remember specifically, like, thin mints right out of the sleeve. I could have a whole box of thin mints.

Right.

So good.

And he was like, we should do this, like, 30 day squeaky clean. And the thing that made me a really good drug addict also makes me really good at, like, taking on new habits, because I was like, okay, when do you want to start? And he's like, now. and I literally handed the thin mints to my friend Zach and I was like, cool, let's go. And we did. And that was the start of the very first Whole30.

And did you have it all figured out? Like we're not gonna have this, this.

And this, or was kind of... It was really loosely based on the framework of a Paleo diet, but when I went back, so I blogged about it on my like personal training blog back in 2009, and when I go back and read, it was super loosey-goosey, right? Like don't eat this, try to eat less sugar. Like it wasn't anywhere near. There were no rules in there. There was no rules. Yeah, it wasn't super well defined, but.

Still got great results.

It sounds like it did.

It got. I got incredible results and, like, but different results than what he, he is, was more mostly physical. Mine were mostly, like, helping me identify a really unhealthy emotional relationship with food and helping me change that in a really permanent and profound way.

Because I feel like when we have a structure, when we have, like, guidelines, then we can be creative within those guidelines.

Yeah.

In life and with food. I like that. But, yeah, you know, as an artist, Sometimes we're just like, okay, paint me a painting. Yes. It's hard to be creative. Yes. But when you say, I want you to paint me a painting with red, black and green. Yes. And I want you to have like circular motions.

Yeah.

Then you can be creative and artistic with the structure. Yeah. And the context. And I think when I had the context and the structure of the whole 30, it made me be more creative of how I could make my food. Yeah. Things that I could order. Now it limited me in some ways, but it gave me structure.

Yeah.

And I think that structure creates discipline as well. Yes.

So... A lot of people find the rules of the program, which are very black and white, very on or off, freeing. Because as you said, it takes some of the decision fatigue out of their brain. It eliminates the need to like white knuckle willpower your way through every decision. We say no added sugar. So when you pick up a label and you read it, you don't have to think, Is this two grams of sugar? Is that too much? Is it not enough? Is it better? Is it worse? Like it's just sugar? Nope, it's out. And a lot of people find that very freeing, especially in the beginning, because when you're trying to create a new habit or change a habit, it's like when I went to rehab, they stick you all in a box and you're isolated from the rest of the world, because in the beginning you're really fragile. It's kind of similar. There's a lot of addiction and recovery language built into the whole 30, which I didn't even realize until Kind of after the fact.

Yeah, of course. Now, when did you get married? What year was that?

Oh my gosh.

I don't remember.

I should remember? 2011?

2011.

I think.

The book came out 2015.

Yeah, the whole 30 book, yeah.

And when did you get divorced?

Well, boy, we separated three years ago in October, and then the divorce took a year to finalize.

Before the book came out, you got divorced? Are separated.

Let me tell you this.

Writing a book must have been interesting.

We separated before the book was written. And then you wrote the book together? No, I wrote the book.

Oh my gosh.

But then we had to do a book tour together.

No way.

When no one knew that we were separated.

Shut up.

Yeah, we did. And listen, we didn't want anything to detract from the book. Our publishers had invested a lot in us.

Of course.

We wanted to make it about the book in the community, not about us personally. We never made it about us personally. We came together and nailed it. He and I both did an incredible job. I feel like we put it aside. Yep. And we just. We did, yeah, we did. And we, I don't think we were disingenuous about it. We weren't pretending to be this, like, super happy. You were super happy.

Dovey, holding hands.

But when it came time to go out and meet people and talk, we did it. We did a great job. And I'm really proud of us for doing that.

Wow.

But it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life.

Holy cow.

Yeah. Yeah.

Now, I, you would think that maybe that would bring you guys back together since you guys were able to do something.

No, no, nobody was under that impression.

How is this for you then, writing a book with a partner that you're separating with and having, you know, whatever emotional challenges you're both having. So I'm assuming he had his own emotional challenges about you. You guys have stuff about him.

Yeah. Of course.

Two sides to every story. I don't even know what happened. Doesn't matter. But how did you emotionally handle this with your food and nutrition and working out during this time? Were you able to stay Whole30 approved essentially, or were you kind of like a mess inside with these emotional turmoil?

It was the most emotional and like stressful period of my life. And I have.

And you were pregnant, right?

Or you were. No, we had had the baby at that point. Our kid was one. So I mean, I was a new mom. Um, but I have never been more, I had never been happier. I've done so much therapy, like so much therapy, and all of the therapy we did in the, over the course of our marriage, trying to make things work and, and individually prepared me for this time period, which was, this is like the most stressful event I could ever imagine going through, and I can still choose to be happy. And I did. So, I did well.

Wow. I, I focus on breaking down and.

Like, no, I mean, no, you know, anytime I had periods of like either resentment or anger or frustration, like they were very short-lived. I was able to really even, I was able to kind of work, process them and work my way through them. Um, I was, I was taking good care of myself. I was taking good care of my son. I had good relationships with my friends. It was like one of the happiest periods of my life, which sounds so strange.

Wow.

It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was when I feel like my performance in the gym went up and I started take, you know, I started back at yoga again and like, yeah, all of this new stuff just, it's hard, you know, when you're trying so hard to make a relationship work and we were both trying hard to make it work, you give up so many pieces of yourself in an effort to kind of compromise and like put, get this thing off the ground. And then once It was clear that it wasn't gonna work. I felt like, okay, now it's time to find me again. And that felt good.

Yeah.

It felt really good.

Now, so you guys were separated before the book came out?

Yeah.

Why did you keep your last name?

Yeah.

Before the book came out, that why wouldn't you change your name?

So back.

I had an opportunity.

Do you have a big platform already? Personally?

Yeah, that was basically, I had a conversation and it seems so weird to say, like, my agent helped me decide whether I should change my name back to my, you know, my maiden name after I divorced. But I had the conversation with him, with her saying, can I go back? My last name is Urban. Can I go back to Urban? And she was like, man, that's a tough sell. Every book you've ever written is under heartwieg. All of the whole 30 stuff is under heartwieg. Like, that's how people know you. And I wasn't so well known, you know, I'm not Glennon Doyle, where, like, she could change her last name to.

Whatever she wants, and people would know.

Who she was, so. I didn't have that opportunity. And my son's last name is Hartwig.

Yeah.

So I don't love it. I will say I don't love it.

But you could change it back now.

Maybe I could.

Right.

Maybe I could. Maybe I should have thought of that before the new book comes out.

It's still time.

It's not printed yet.

It's true.

Wow. Interesting. So you've been able to. Do you feel like having control over your nutrition and your. Your Fitness has helped you emotionally navigate? Divorce and the emotions of all that as well.

Oh my gosh.

And like divorcing a human but also divorcing in a business.

Yes.

Because you had to do both essentially, right?

You did, yes. And the business was way harder. The business was very challenging. You know, I think personally we had both reconciled ourselves and that part was really easy. That's good. The co-parenting is easy and all of that stuff. Yeah, it was tough. Yes, in times of great stress, I'm a huge fan of controlling the things you can control. And the things I could control were the food I put in my body, how much I slept, at least making conscious decisions to, like, go to bed early and sleep, you know, and at least get as much good sleep as I can and. And exercise in a smart fashion.

Yeah.

Not over exercise, not beat myself up, not kill myself, but, like, move my body in a way that felt good. So I did.

What advice would you give to women going through divorce who have a tendency of emotional eating? as a challenge for themselves just in general in life. And now they're going through a divorce, whether they're business partners or not, but they're divorcing and going through this. What suggestions or strategies or tips would you have given them?

Yeah.

For me, I think the thing that resonates the most is that people are reaching for food in these times of emotional struggles, but they're not. You don't want a cookie. You're looking for a connection. And I think people, especially at the end of a marriage, you've probably, probably already isolated yourself a little bit from friends and family, because when your relationship's not going well, it's really hard to socialize and pretend like it is, or you don't want to bring other people down with all of your issues, or they've been hearing about it for so long already, so you tend to pull back anyway. So you're missing these like good in-person connections that can be so helpful with you processing and shifting, and instead you're reaching for food. So my advice and what I tried to do in my own life was just like stay as connected as possible to the people who really mattered. And I shared really openly and It didn't always have to be. We weren't always talking about my feelings or the divorce. Sometimes we were just going to a yoga class or going for a walk. That was great too. But not isolating and purposefully forging those connections can be so helpful.

Yeah, it'll help you better. Who do you feel does a better job with the Whole30, men or women?

That's tough. Our audience is mostly women. I think it's a couple fold. I think the diet industry in general is mostly driven by women. As much as I wouldn't say the Whole30 is a diet, kind of where we fall. We connect with most of our readers via social media and women are far more likely to engage over social on a concept like this. I think what I hear from men is, oh yeah, I totally did the Whole30, but like, I never blogged about it. I never social meditated about it. You know, I never like went on a forum and asked for support. Men tend to do a little bit better maybe for two reasons. One, they tend to lose weight faster. and that can be made. They do.

Yeah.

For a number of reasons. They've got more muscle mass, testosterone. They tend to have. This is a very gross generality, but, like, they maybe don't have as much or as deep of an emotional relationship with food as women do. I know men still have their emotional issues with food, but from what I've observed, they don't tend to either run as deep or be as strong.

Why is that?

I don't know.

You tell me. I mean, I know I can throw.

Down a box of donuts at any time.

Yeah.

Yeah. And is it hard to eat?

I can do it when I'm, like.

Sad or emotionally distraught, or I can do when I'm celebrating.

Yeah.

I'm like, okay, we just did this.

Yeah. Let's get a box of pizza.

It's a donut.

Yeah.

Like, interesting.

So that's the thing. And then here's the thing. I just read this, actually, a couple weeks ago. Actually, JJ Virgin brought this to my attention.

Yeah.

She sent me an article about Gender, what was it about? It's about essentially gender nutritional habits. How for men, you know, there's a way, a style of eating that's different than women.

Yeah.

In general, I'm talking about. Yeah. Where it's competitive for men.

Oh, interesting.

Where it's like, oh, I can eat more than you.

Oh, yeah.

I can like, let's do like, you don't see a lot of women doing that.

That's a boy thing.

No, no, no, no, no. Right?

It's like, It's projecting your masculinity of like, oh, I can beat you at this as well. I can be like bigger and I can drink the beer faster than you. I can do these things better than you.

That's true.

Or men do barbecues, so we're all gonna have lots of meats and all these other things where women eat salads or whatever and they eat slower. Maybe this gender kind of like...

I definitely don't want to insinuate that guys don't have emotional relationships with food. I think maybe where I was going with this was that women tend to be a little bit more like mind screwed when it comes to food because we've been fed the diet industry and the inspiration our whole lives. And that hasn't been as directed towards men, I don't think. So, you know, we've got the Cosmo magazines and the glamours and all the other stuff and the media and the diet industry telling us that we're not skinny enough and we're not, you know, toned enough and whatever. So you add that to an emotional relationship with food, and that can be really challenging.

What advice do you have about women who are emotional eaters in general, how to like separate themselves from that or how to navigate it or.

Yeah, you know, accept it.

I don't know what's even the best way to go about it.

So like part of it is biological, right? Like under periods of chronic stress, we crave sugar. It is biological. It is what happens in our system with our hormones when we are under stress and our body thinks that we need to run from the tiger or, you know, fend off the attack and we want quick and easy energy. Like that's a very simplistic overview, but part of it is biological. so there's almost a piece of that that can be really freeing for people. Like, okay, you know, you're going through a really difficult divorce and finances are tight and you're not sure where you're going to live. Of course you're craving sugar, right? Of course.

So that's expected.

So that can be almost comforting for people. Just the awareness of that. I think understanding it.

Yeah.

Right. Understanding kind of what's going on behind the scenes can make you feel less crazy. Like, I don't really want this, but why am I craving it? Once I start eating, I can't stop. I think for some people, if your emotional relationship with food isn't to the point where you would consider yourself addicted or you're not eating, Specifically as a result of like some kind of unresolved trauma or an issue, maybe doing a reset like the Whole30 can help where, you know, you're pulling this stuff out of your diet and physiologically and psychologically we are giving you a reset from these foods that are making you crave.

And overconsume and get you stuck in this cycle. Yeah, so that way you have better habits afterwards.

Yeah.

Do it for 30 days.

Yeah. And then you're not as craving as much.

Yes.

And that works really well for some people. For others, I say like, Just go talk to you. You gotta go talk to someone.

Yeah.

Right.

This is not, it's about the food, but it's not about the food. It's about like all of this stuff that's coming underneath and behind the food. And like you need to look at that.

Right.

That is sending you to the food.

Right.

You need to release it.

Yeah.

You need to connect about it in a different way. Yeah. And I'm a huge fan of therapy. Any modality that happens to work for you. Like these things, a lot of these.

Things are too big to unpack yourself.

Too big. So. Wow. yeah.

What else are you excited about in.

Your life right now? My son's amazing.

He's four and a half and super fun and his own, like, great little personality. And he's just getting to the age where, like, he. I'm doing stuff with him instead of just, like, toting him along everywhere, which is cool. So he gets to tell me what he wants to do on a weekend, and he loves being outside and hiking with me and stuff, so that's good. I feel like I have such an awesome network of friends right now.

Yeah.

Such and like guys and girls, which is cool. I never had girlfriends growing up.

Really?

Not really.

Like the lone girl?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think, I think maybe I had some like defense mechanisms and now it's like, I like sharing with my girlfriends. And like we get, yeah, we sit down and just like get into it, you know? There's not like, yeah, so that's feels really good. I'm traveling a ton. I love what I do for work. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. So much. I love it.

Helping people, all of it.

Yeah.

All of it, creating resources, meeting them, hearing their stories, like, what do you need? What can I do for you? Let me help.

You know, I love it so much.

Super fulfilling. What would you say is missing for you? A solid, like, personal life, a relationship. I've been, and, like, it's kind of the excuse that feeds it, right? Like, I've been in this period of work hustle where work is going really well, and I've put out, you know, I've been writing books like crazy, and this is your fifth book now or what? This is my, it'll be my sixth, but it's the second year that I will put out two books in a row. oh, that's, like, crazy. I didn't. And I don't have as much to do with the cookbooks, but, like, still.

Right.

So work is going really well, so I'm focusing on work, and I also have my kid, and I've got my own part. You know, I sleep really well, and I'm at the gym all the time, and I do yoga all the time and stuff, and it's like I date someone, and then they're like, you're kind of hard to date. And I'm like, you know, because I'm not around and I travel so much and stuff. So it's easy almost to say, like, well, I'll just put that off for a little while. Except I've been saying that for a little yeah. So, you know, maintaining personal relationships can be tough for a number of reasons. So that's. I think that's what's missing.

What's it gonna take for you to. To bring it into your life?

Some pretty conscious pulling back of what I do for work. Some pretty conscious, like, this could be a good opportunity, but I'm gonna pass on it for now and really focus on, like, connecting in my relationships.

Right.

What do you feel like if you found someone that was worth pulling back for? you would, or maybe.

Yeah, maybe.

That's a good way of looking at it, too.

It.

Let's just put it this way. For the first time in a long time, I'm, like, tossing it out there. Oh, right. Like, okay, Universe, I'm kind of ready for this. That's cool.

Yeah.

I'm ready for, like, something that's a little more connected and a little more serious. It's been three years. I took the first year and a half and, like, didn't really date at all because I felt like I needed.

That space for me, and that was great, but, yeah, I think I'm ready for it, so maybe that's it.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Awesome. I want to ask a few final questions.

Okay.

Well, actually, before I ask a few final questions, what have you learned about building an online community around this topic? Because I think there's a lot of people who are experts or nutritionists or just in general coaches helping other people, but you've built like a great community through different groups on Facebook and social media, your website. What would you say has been helpful for you and navigating that and cultivating that.

Yeah.

So I think it's two things. I think number one, it is like serving them. And I stay incredibly engaged with my community, like me directly, right? I'm not nobody.

So much time, right?

It is so much time.

I'm the same way. One by one replying to so many people.

Yes.

And it's the most important part of my job. It is how you build connection, it's how you build loyalty, it's how you get great ideas for your business. Somebody says, oh, you should have this person on your podcast. and if 10 other people chime in, you're like, oh, they weren't on my radar, but I should. And then you're serving them, and it's good for you, and it's good for them. Like, serve your community. Cultivate the community. If you do that, everything else will follow. I have people now who are fiercely loyal to the program who, you know, I write a book, and they're like, I'll buy it. I don't need it, but I'll buy it because I want to support you. And it's because I'm not trying to sell them stuff. I'm just serving them. But I think the more important thing is that behind the community or the marketing or whatever your social media is, You have to have a product that's really good. And I think a lot of people overlook that.

They don't have a good product.

Yeah, you know, you can have the flashy marketing camp. I mean, this is me telling you this. Sure. I feel silly even, you know. But you know what I'm saying, right? You can have the best smoke and mirrors and show and prettiest Instagram feed. But like, if at the heart you don't have something that like actually gives people what they need and what they want and works for them, then like they're not gonna stick around. And the point is to cultivate a.

Loyal following, not just a flash in the pan set of followers.

Right.

Starts with a product. It does. And then it starts with it, and then it's engagement. Yeah.

And listening to what they want and serving them. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's slower and it's not as sexy. And you maybe don't have these like giant gains, right? And maybe you're, you know, you're not getting all of these major offers to promote sponsored stuff on your, but like, I don't, I'm not a huge fan of that. Right, right, exactly. I'm really not.

Yeah.

I like to keep it really authentic and personal and yeah, that's what I like to do. What would you say is your greatest gift?

Oh, you know, I'm really good at speaking to people the way they want to be spoken to. Meaning I can take a message and, like, within not a very long period of time, I can figure out whether you need that message delivered tough love style or cheerleader style or sciencey style. I've cultivated that. I'm good at that.

Smart.

Which really helpful when you're trying to inspire change. Yeah, pretty good at that.

And the biggest weakness?

Oh boy, I think, I mean maybe I'm just really, I tend to be a little dogmatic, especially in the beginning. Again, I'm very black or white. I'm very on or off. It's taken me a long time to cultivate a sense of nuance and context. And empathy is something that I've had to learn. work at and teach myself. So I still struggle and sometimes fail in that. But I'm not afraid to say, like, I was wrong. Here's where I was wrong. Sorry about that. Here's what I'm gonna do in the future.

Right.

I'm not afraid to do that.

It's great. Yeah, it's great. Okay, final few questions. This is called three truths.

Okay.

So this is the last day for you many years from now.

Yes.

But all of your content is erased from history. Yeah. And so there's no information that you've shared available anymore.

Yep.

And you got a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you know to be true about all your experiences.

Yeah.

The lessons you would leave behind. What would you say are your three truths?

Oh, love yourself. Love more. God, those would be the only two, I think. Just love.

Yeah.

More love.

That's it.

Okay. Cool.

Yeah.

Cool. What are you most grateful for right now?

I think I'm the most grateful to be able to spend my days doing something that I love to do so much. This work, I feel like I have found my life's calling. This is what God put me here to do. I can't think of anything I could be more grateful for than that. Obviously my son and my family, but like that, the fact that I feel like I'm living my purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Well, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Melissa, for your ability to transform your habits and get out of a dark place. Because I think for some people, it's hard to stay to get out of that. Once you've been addicted, once you've been in that space, it's really easy to keep going down that path. So for you to get yourself out of there and to have someone stand for you and you for to listen to that person. and then to continue to make your life about transformation for others. It's really inspiring and powerful. So I want to acknowledge you for that.

Thanks so much.

Of course. The new book is called the Whole30 Day by Day, your daily guide to Whole30 success. It's out now when this comes out. And you guys can get it online. What's the website as well?

Whole30.com. W-H-O-L-E and the number 30.

Whole30.com@Melissa a heartwig. Make sure to check her out on social media. Get the book. I've done the program. It's amazing. So, I highly recommend it and it's probably the best results I've gotten from anything. I've tried Paleo, I've tried all these different things, but Whole30 felt like it was something I could continue to do and want to come back to do.

That makes me so happy.

Yeah.

So, I recommend it. With so much out there in the nutrition space that it's just hard to something seems to always come out new every day, right? I feel like this is something that's really sustainable because it's the best foods that you're supposed to be eating.

Yeah.

So I highly recommend you guys check it out. Whole30.com. you can learn more about it there. This is the, the final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

Ooh, I think my definition of greatness is showing up as yourself, period.

I think family, it's so important because, like, we can go to the men's.

Retreat and share, you know, we can, we can do that.

And people are like, nature in the woods and then hug it out and cry.

But then what?

But, like, we all regress around our families.

And we, you know, people say, like, you know, your family members are the ones who push your buttons because they're the ones who put them there, and we all get.