The 6 RED FLAGS You Need To Avoid In A Relationship! (WATCH OUT FOR THIS!) | Esther Perel

If you want to really take on the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today with you and me. Together, we are going to create best friends, romantic partners. Seriously, one person for everything. One person instead of a whole village. So that's the first myth.

This video is brought to you by Athletic Greens, and we'll hear more from them in just a moment. I think you gotta have a dream.

The school of greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howers.

Do you feel like. I think the stats before two years ago was 50% of marriages fail. Do you feel like the percentage has gone up since the last two years, or is it still kind of the same? Some people have figured it out, other people haven't, and people are, you know, somewhere in between.

So I'm not a statistician. And in fact, it is lesser than 50, and it depends by social class. More educated people marry later and divorce less. It's actually education and social class has something to do as well with duration of marriages. But I think what I would say as a start is that disasters are relationship accelerators. And that means that what we've experienced in these last two years. I was here March 11th.

I know it's crazy.

And I went in lockdown March 14th. And so that's why I will always remember the date of our last conversation. But what happens in a period of disaster like this, and prolonged disaster, right, with prolonged uncertainty, is that you have a sense that, especially in the beginning, we really had a clear sense of mortality. Things suddenly felt much more fragile. And when life is short, when you have that acute awareness of life is short, then you'd say, either what am I waiting for, let's move in, let's get married, let's have babies. Let's. Let's go, let's do. Because I don't know what happens tomorrow. Or we say, I've waited long enough. I'm not taking this anymore. I'm going to wait this out a little bit, but as soon as I can, I'm out of here. Because when you have a sense of mortality, when you have acceleration, you basically have a reorganization of your priorities. What matters to me most, what can't I live without, and what won't I tolerate living with anymore? That is what has happened. And so typically, research has always said that in pandemics, in disasters, in large psychosocial events like that, there is more breakups and more babies, but we are just coming out of it. So the babies are about to be born and the breakups are now just proliferating, but we don't know, I think, the exact statistic yet.

Interesting. I think before you mentioned that something like 50% of marriages end in divorce, and then, you know, 70% of the next marriages end in divorce or something.

Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages.

Why is that?

I think that there's a number of ways to explain it, but first of all, often children are older. Second, there is a sense that I waited too long in the first one to make this decision, and I no longer want to feel afterwards where I say, I should have done this much sooner. There is less of a sacredness to the experience. And you feel like the first time, you feel like, you know, depending on if you come from divorce or your belief systems or your values about the stability of relationships, it means so much to break those vows sometimes. And then the second time, you've already done it.

I've already done this. I don't need to tolerate this for 10 more years like I did the first time.

And let me just. There is less of a sense of shattering, of all the grand ambitions of love and of marriage that you had engaged with.

Wow, that's interesting.

You've already done that experience once of dissolving this entire complex relational system that is emotional, psychological, economic, inter familial, and you did it. And so it doesn't. It feels slightly less impossible, ominous.

It's not as scary the second time.

It's not as scary.

You've done it before, you know the pain, you can handle it again.

Third marriage is less.

It's less. Less divorces, less divorces. Why is that?

I guess people have a sense that they finally have done either their personal work, they've grown up, they've matured, they've taken responsibility, They've gotten a sense as the constant factor in all their relationship is them. You know, so finally, maybe they took a good look at themselves. And hopefully this time it's not that they found a better person, it's that I think they have become a better partner.

I was talking to you about this before we got on the interview, about how my entire life, I've been the centerpiece of relationships not working out. I've been the core. I've been the person who's been involved in the relationship, and therefore I've chosen and stayed in relationships that didn't line up with what I wanted in my most current relationship with Martha. When we started dating, I was telling you this. When we started dating, I said it'd be really cool to enter a new relationship with emotional accountability, with therapy, with support from an outspoken perspective, where we both are working on ourselves and we're getting clear if we're in alignment with our values and our vision and our lifestyle for what we want to create, where we're not just connected sexually or chemically, which is what I chose a lot in the past and stayed for, but more based on a different foundation. And it's been a beautiful experience for both of us to witness emotional accountability and therapy together when things are great, not when things are bad and you have to repair something, but to try to build agreements as we build our relationship. And I'm such a fan of it, and I've been telling all my friends about this who are getting in relationships. You know, find something. Find a book you can work on together or a therapist or something you work on together. Have you ever worked with couples who got into a relationship early when there wasn't issues and they started working with you?

Many.

Really?

Many, Many, many, many. So the traditional, you know, idea of premarital counseling is one thing, but there's also, you know, people want to talk about conscious uncoupling. They could also talk about conscious coupling. Right. It's like in the beginning, you're not in your early 20s, you're in your late 30s. You've had your experiences. You have a sense of what are the vulnerabilities that you bring to the relationships. You have a sense of what makes it hard to live with you as well. And you say, I actually want us to go when we still have a lot of what is called positive sentiment override.

What does that mean?

It means that you get the benefit of the doubt, that you're still in multiple appreciation, that you see the brightness side of things, that you see the cup half full, that you're not yet building resentment and deprivation, and, you know, the things that sometimes accompany relationships on the bitter side of them. And I think that I like it when people come early. I think it's fantastic. One of the big changes for me as a couples therapist over decades was that indeed, we learned that people come to therapy when there are problems. Therapy is a problem with the narrative. If everything's fine, why don't you go to therapy? And if you already need to go in the beginning, there must be something really wrong, because who goes that is so old? For me, that has been scrapped. You know, you go because you have a sense that you want to prepare yourself. You Want to bring your strengths and your challenges from the beginning into the relationship and prepare it. And I think it is a fantastic idea. It doesn't mean that you already have problems. It means that you say, I want to do a preventive approach.

Absolutely.

I want to preempt. I want to be mature about it. And it's interesting because you talk about the distinction between chemicals and values. Right. You just posted a clip of a conversation that we had back then, exactly two years ago, where I talked about the difference between a love story and a life story. It's a bit that you don't need too much consonants of values to love somebody.

What is the difference between love and life story?

The experience of a love story. The word story is important, right? So the story of love is a story that I can fall in love with all kinds of people with whom I would never live a life with, that we come from completely different worlds, we have different aspirations, different values. But in the midst of that, something very precious unfolds between us in a very small container that is deeply intimate and often deeply erotic. It doesn't need. How do we negotiate? Children in laws, economics, careers, the political environment around us, all of that. We don't have to talk about any of this. In that beautiful container of intimacy and erotic intimacy lives a love story. A life story is a negotiation with the whole world. A life story, first of all, goes through a developmental arc. I may meet you in my 20s, and here I am in my 40s, 50s, 60s. So it's a developmental arc. It exists over time. It needs to include change. It needs to include the addition and subtraction of new people, the death of people and the birth of people. Sometimes it needs to include how we negotiate with all our friends. A love story can live alone in a little room without seeing anybody because it feeds on itself very, very beautifully. But a life story must include other people, a social circle, a community, activities, passions, hobbies, careers. There's a lot of other things. And those demand a consonance of values, of aspirations, of ambitions, the ability to not just foster the togetherness, but also to develop the differentiation. It's us and it's you and me. It's the. It's the together and the separate.

Yeah. And so the love story, when people develop what they consider, that doesn't mean.

By the way, I'm sorry. Go ahead, you're good. Because I know what people. But the life story involves love. The fear is that when I distinguish it this way, people. Is there no love in the life story of Course, there is love in the life story, but all I'm saying is you can love a lot more people, and they're not necessarily the same people as the ones with whom you will have a life story.

And do most people who develop a love story with someone else and not also see if this could be a life story, is that where you see it suffers or struggles if they're only thinking of the love story but not all the other factors of life?

No, I think that if you meet someone like I used, you know, I could go on a trip and have a beautiful story with someone, a nice adventure. That person belongs on the trip. It doesn't need to come back from the trip with you. And sometimes they come back on the trip and it takes another week or two of a lot of, you know, texts and calls and this and that. And then slowly you reintegrate your life and they become a part of a memory of a beautiful trip. They're a short story. They're a love story and a short story. You know, once you say, I think I may want to live with this person, I may want to build with this person, it's a different architecture and I need different materials for that architecture. And part of the materials is love and feelings, but part of it is culture and aspirations and values and beliefs. And all of that now starts to become important too. And sometimes when people fall in love or when people have incredible sexual connection, they think that that also means that they can build a life together. And sometimes that's the case, and other times it's not. It is not a guarantee. A powerful erotic connection doesn't necessarily mean that you can also straddle a whole.

Set of life experiences. I have been using AG1 for years now to start my day, which is why I'm so excited to say that we have partnered with Athletic greens for this show. And there are so many different vitamins and minerals and superfoods to keep track of. I honestly just don't have the time to figure out how to make the right meals to get get the right amount of all the healthy stuff into my body on a daily basis. One scoop of AG1 is all I need. That gets me 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food source, superfoods, probiotics and adaptogens. It's so easy without even really thinking about it. I just shake up a bottle of it and now I'm supporting my gut health, my nervous system, my immune system, my energy, recovery, focus and aging, all of it all in one place. It has quickly Become part of my daily routine. And I owe a lot of it to the fact that I genuinely love the taste. It's got the kind of tropical taste that I actually look forward to. And most of you know that I travel a lot, I speak around the world for this business and when I can't drink AG1 in the office or at home, they have these incredible travel packs that make it so easy to throw in my bag and keep up with my routine when I'm on the go. And right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition. And to make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs. With your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.comsogg again that is athleticgreens.comsog to take ownership of your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. You know, I feel like a lot of people that I've known in the past have entered a relationship through a sexual connection, sexual chemistry, erotic experiences, fun times, things like that. And then they start dating and then they start entering a relationship based on that foundation as opposed to, based on what do you see for your life? You know, what are the values, the background, the culture, the religion, the money, all these different things. Do you want kids? Do you not want kids? And I feel like that ends up being a struggle for a lot of people, myself included in my past until I started tried something differently.

You first had the sex and then you met the person.

Exactly, yeah. And created a story about who the person would be.

Right.

Without actually communicating in a and giving space and time to experience who the person was. Right. And same for them with me. Why do you think most people start things that way, you know, in general, as opposed to, hey, let's give it time. Let's ask deeper, more intimate questions like you have in your game. Let's get to know each other. Why do you think that is?

First of all, that only began to happen with the democratization of contraception. This is before the 68. This was not possible. So it's very recent that we start making love first and then we find out each other's names sometimes.

Is that true all over the world or is that more in the US or is that more.

It's true wherever people can experience premarital sex. Basically in the past you first had to marry in order to be able to have sex. When I say in the past, it's in the past. Here and that's when I was a teenager. And in much of the world it still is the case. So we are part of a very sexualized society in which sexual freedom and sexual expression has become a part of our values. Right. Sexuality used to be a part of our biology and now it's a part of our condition. Now it's a part of our identity. And so we have changed the meaning of sex in the culture at large. And then we have changed it in our relationships. And so we start from a place of attraction. You know, am I drawn to you? Am I attracted to you? You know, it's the first thing I think when I swipe. What do I do? I look at, you know, where do I get a little frisson, you know, who catches my attention. And it's purely physical. So it is a recent development for most of the people here. This is not their grandparents story. So this is still in the family. It's not like you have to go in the history books.

Sure. How do you feel like people could set up for a healthier relationship as opposed to what would you recommend or suggest them for people in order to have a healthier foundation? Seeing that it seems so sexualized now Everything seems so like physical swiping, looking at someone's sexual identity, attraction as opposed to, I guess, true intimacy and connection. How would you set up a relationship now?

There's so many different pieces to this. I think the first things, look, I am right about sexuality. I'm not going to minimize it. But I do understand that, you know, it's very important. It's a beautiful thing to have a powerful erotic connection with someone. But don't confuse the metaphors. You can have a beautiful erotic connections with someone. And that does not necessarily translate into a life experience.

Right? A life story.

A life story. That said, the next thing that changed culturally, if you want to really take on the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only. The one and only my soulmate is my everything. Yes, my everything. Your soulmate used to be God, not a person. You know, the one and only was the divine. And with this one and only today, I want to experience wholeness and ecstasy and meaning and transcendence. And I am going to wait 10 more years, we are waiting 10 years longer to settle with someone, to make a commitment to someone for those of us who choose a someone. And if I'm going to wait longer and if I'm looking around and if I'm choosing among a thousand people at my fingertips, you Bet that the one who's going to capture my attention is going to make me delete my apps. Better be the one and only. So in a period of proliferation of choices, we at the same time have an ascension of expectations about a romantic relationship that is unprecedented. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today in the West.

It seems like a lot of pressure.

It's an enormous amount of pressure. We crumble under the weight of these expectations because a community cannot become a tribe of two. This is a party of two. And with you and me together, we are going to create best friends, romantic partners, lovers, confidants, parents, intellectual eagers, business partners, business partners, career coaches. I mean, you name it. And I'm like, seriously, one person for everything. One person instead of a whole village. So that's the first myth. And the notion of unconditional love that accompanies this is that when I have that one and only, I have what you call clarity, but translated into certainty, peace and freedom, or safety, which is the other side of the same thing.

So that's.

That to me is if you want to set yourself up, really the idea that you're going to find one person for everything is a myth. Keep a community around you.

Absolutely.

Keep a set of deep friendships, really deep friendships, deep intimacies with friends, with mentors, with family members, with colleagues. You know that. So that's the first thing for me in having good relationships is diversify. Diversifying relationships.

But not sexually.

No, no. For some people it will include that. For the vast majority it won't. But the notion that there isn't a one person for everything and that that doesn't mean that there is a problem in your relationship when that happens. The second thing is stop constantly looking at people as a problem product where you evaluate them and you evaluate yourself. You know, in our market economy, everything has become a product we included. And so love seems to have become the moment that the evaluation of the product stops. You have finally been approved when you have been chosen, and when you choose. This is Eva ilu, a sociologist who writes about this very beautifully. It's like love finally becomes the. The moment you can experience peace. You're no longer looking, selling yourself, proving yourself, trying to capture somebody's attention, it's exhausting. And once you are in that mentality, you also are continuously looking for the best product. You never say, you know, how can I meet a person who people don't often talk about? How can I be a person who.

That's so true.

Okay, so it's what you're looking for in the market economy of romantic love rather than who are you, how do you show up, what do you bring, what responsibility do you take, how generous are you, etc.

Absolutely.

Second thing for what I think sets you up for a better relationship. And the third thing is understand some of the things that are really important to you, and don't get involved with someone on the hope that some things will change.

Do things ever change with a partner that you want to change?

Yes, things do change a lot. I mean, many different things can occur in a relationship, but it's different from, I'm coming in here to turn things around. Because so much of us wants the experience of acceptance.

Absolutely.

With acceptance, I would say this another thing to prepare yourself. You can love a person wholly W H O L L Y without having to love all of them.

What do you mean by that?

It means that the notion of unconditional love is a myth. Adult love lives in the realm of ambivalence, which means that relational ambivalence is part and parcel of all our relationships. We have it with our parents, our siblings, our friends, which means that we continuously have to integrate contradictory feelings and thoughts between love and hate, between excitement and fear, between envy and contempt, between boredom and aliveness. You continuously negotiate these contradictions. That ambivalence and living with that ambivalence is actually a sign of maturity. Rather than continuously then evaluating. See, in the beginning you evaluate, is this the right one? Is this the one and only? Is this the. Then it becomes, shall I stay or shall I go? How do I know I have found the one is the premarital or the pre commitment relationship. And then afterwards it becomes, is it good enough? We continuously continue with the evaluations, right? Is it good enough? Or how happy am I? Am I happy enough? So that's the unconditional love. No, we live with ambivalence in our relationship. There are periods where we think, what would life be like elsewhere? And then we come back and then we say, I can't imagine it without it. This is what I've chosen. I'm good here. But it's a conversation. The idea that you will be accepted unconditionally is a dream we have for our parents when we are babies. It's not part of adult love.

Right? So unconditional love is not something that we can expect.

Unconditional love is a myth. So the one and only is a myth. You asked me, how do we set ourselves up for the best, for relationships up front, there is no one and only. There is one person that you choose at a certain moment in time, and with that person you choose. Try to create the most beautiful relationship you can, but you could have done it with others. Timing is involved. Lots of things are involved. So there is no one and only.

There's no soulmate.

Soulmate is God. You can think that you have a soulmate connection with someone, that you have a deep, deep meeting of the minds, of the souls, of the heart, of the bodies, but it's a metaphor. It's not a person. It's the quality of an experience that feels like soulmates. That's number two. Number three, there is no unconditional love. We live with ambivalence in our deepest love relationships. There are things we like and things we don't, and things they like about us and things they don't, and moments they can't be without us, and moments where they wish on occasion, they could be away from us. And that's normal. Number four, the happiness mandate. Continuously evaluating how happy I am. You know, if you continuously pursue happiness, you're miserable a lot of the time.

What should we pursue instead?

We pursue integrity, depth, joy, aliveness, connection, growth. Those things that ultimately make us say, I feel good, I'm, I'm happy about this, but I don't pursue happiness. Happiness is the consequence of a lot of things you put in. You pursue caring for someone, having their back, feeling they have your back, wanting the best for them. What the Pali people call compersion. You know, those things you can pursue conversion.

What's compersion?

Compersion is feeling joy for the happiness of the other person.

Is this polyamory relationships?

It's a consequence.

It's like they're with another sexual partner.

But I think the word is bigger than just, you know, contained within the poly community and culture. It is the notion that you want good for the other person, even when it doesn't have to do with you.

Right?

You're proud of them, you admire them, you, you enjoy their, their growth, their successes.

You know, what about when someone says, you know, I'm with this person, they make me happy. What does that happen when you're looking for someone to make you happy in the relationship?

Well, the day they don't, you will say, they make me unhappy or they don't make me happy. But it's they, they do to me. I'm the recipient of what they do. They have the power, they can give, they can withhold. I depend, I crave, I long, I yearn, I Respond to them.

And what should we be thinking of instead of this person makes me happy? How should we approach that?

We give each other a good foundation from which we can each launch into our respective worlds.

Ooh, that's cool.

A home is a foundation with wings. Or I like to think a good relationship is a foundation with wings. So you feel the stability that you need, the security, the safety, the predictability, as much as you can, as much as our life allows us. And at the same time, you have the wings to go and explore, discover, be curious, be in the world, sometimes together and sometimes apart.

What do you think happens when people are in a relationship and let's say they're together for a year or a couple years, they decide, okay, we want to get married. But maybe one or two. Each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person. Maybe there's, like three things that they really don't like or don't accept or wish they changed.

What?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, I love so much. We have this great connection. We have so much fun, and we're growing and building a relationship, but behind their back, you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, I wish they changed this, this, or this. I don't like this thing. I don't like this thing.

That's ambivalence.

What does that mean?

Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings of what you like and what you don't like. What makes you want to be here and what makes you not want to be here.

What happens when we don't accept that, though, and we like, you know, hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that I don't like about them. What happens when we're in that space?

It means that when you get married, you're not just making a deal with your partner, you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is going to change. And then when it doesn't, you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself, which you never said out loud, it's a private bargain you do with yourself. And all of us when we pick someone, make private bargains with ourselves, too. And it's often that bargain that is broken more than the one because the partner never promised you that this would change.

Exactly. And so it just creates more resentment when we want something to change.

We don't accept expectations are resentment in the make. The more expectations you have, the More things you can be disappointed of afterwards, right? Especially when they're not articulated. I think what you need to know is what are some of the things. If you are with someone who. If you. If you go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection and you know that this is something that really is important to you, being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you and you don't want to live without it, then listen to yourself. If it's not an important part for you because that is not the way you express yourself most, then. Then you know that this is not the center person, the centerpiece of your relationship. You have other things that you share. If you know that you don't want children or reverse that the other person doesn't want children, don't go in there hoping that they're going to change their mind, because that is not fair to you nor to them. If you are with someone who says, I do not want to marry and you do, or if you are with someone who says, I see love, plural, I do not see myself just with one partner, and this is clear to you that that's not okay, or that you want it differently. Listen to yourself. Those are values that involve life decisions, that you don't sit there waiting till they're going to catch up with you.

And what happens when two people's values are not in alignment? Can they still have a beautiful life story? Or do you feel like there's always going to be some type of unnecessary.

I think it depends on the degree to which people can live with what we call a sense of differentiation. Meaning if I am okay wanting to go to church, and that's not part of what you do. We come from the same faith or we come from different religions and one of us wants to adhere to their tradition and wants to participate in the practices of their religion and is okay doing it without the other, doesn't feel that that needs to be shared, doesn't experience every time they sit in church. I wish you were sitting next to me. Why do I have to come here alone all the time? You know that.

So it's accepting someone's choices.

It's accepting that your choice, if you practice it, you can accept to do it without your partner.

So it's you accepting it.

It's you accepting it. Of course, the other person, but the other person can often tell you, you go if you like to be there. I don't want to go there on Sunday morning. I have other things to do with that time. Okay. Religion is a major one on that. Travel is another one on that. Children, work, setting. It's difficult to say to someone, I, I'll have a child alone. You don't have to participate. But it is easier to say, I will continue to practice my religion because it is central to me. You don't have to be a part of that. We have other things that we will share. But you need to know to do that and feel okay about it if all the time. Now, that doesn't mean that on occasion you don't miss and you wish you partnered. There's a great sermon. I so wish you had been there to hear it. Great. But if it's chronic and you just feel this hole all the time, and you know from the beginning that it is a unifier for you and your partner is. And your partner doesn't show curiosity because you can come from something else and say, I'm interested in this. Let me see what this is. If you want to go back to live in your home country and your partner has zero intention of leaving where they are, listen to them. Don't hope. If they tell you, yes, I would like that at some point, then listen carefully. If they're saying this to pacify you, if they're saying this to make sure that you don't leave them, or if they truly intend to do this at some time.

And don't hope something's going to change, don't hope they're going to do something later, after you get married or in a committed relationship.

No, start from the place that it's not going to happen. See how it is.

Can you accept that?

Can you accept that? Then if things change, all the better. But don't start with the hope that it will be different.

Right. And how does jealousy play in relationships? I used to be extremely jealous and insecure.

I remember that.

And then something switched in me. I don't know, five years ago, six years ago, maybe somewhere around that time where I was like, you know what? This does not support me or my relationship at all. This, this jealous nature or this.

That you knew even when you were jealous.

Oh, yeah, I knew. But I couldn't. I couldn't let it go though.

Right. So it's not what you said to yourself that changed.

What, something changed? Yeah. I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember just being like, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of feeling this way.

So what did you Change not. What did you say to yourself?

I think I changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing and trusting that everything was going to be okay and not needing to be jealous. I think I was just afraid, like, are they talking to some guy or something? You know, is there something behind my back that they're doing? I don't know. It was a worry of like an anxiousness. Right.

So.

And then I was just like, wait, wait, wait. Yes.

Part of what accompanies jealousy, you know, jealousy starts at one and a half year old.

Okay.

It's not an early emotion.

Interesting.

It needs a sense of self first. It needs the beginning of self awareness as a baby to be able to experience jealousy. It's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness.

So where does it come from?

Anger? Where it comes from and how. Evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy, but where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires. Requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience how you respond to what other people are doing. I want that too. I don't, you know, I don't want to lose something. What changed for you is that you became more confident. You felt less that your sense of self worth is in the hands of the other person. And that. And they turned away from you. That means that you are not enough or that you're going to lose them or that they're going to leave you. That's what changed.

And then I'd be like hurt or empty or sad or in pain because of their actions. And I think that's 100%. I think I didn't feel like I was good enough or something where I was just like, you know what, it's all going to be okay, you know, if they do something or.

But this, it's all going to be okay. Followed in different sense of yourself.

Absolutely.

Where you were less in a panic, less in the grip of, they're going to abandon me and I'm not good enough. And from that place you began to say, it's okay, nothing bad is going.

To happen to me.

That's how we diminish jealousy. It's not how we react to what the other person does, it's how we feel about ourselves that changes how we react about what the other person does.

Absolutely. And it's been an incredible freedom and gift that I. That I received or gave myself. But it took me, you know, 30 something years to learn it. And it feels incredible. It feels incredible. But for years I struggled with it. And I think a lot of people, in general, at least guy friends that I knew growing up struggled with it.

As well.

Where they didn't feel comfortable, or maybe their female partner didn't feel comfortable with them doing certain things without them there or whatever. And now I'm just, like, at peace and whatever my partner wants to do. I'm like, live your life.

Have you ever had a conversation about jealousy with your girlfriend?

I've talked about it where I'm like, she's highly cultural. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've talked about. With her, I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not jealous.

Right. But Americans, yes, think that being jealous diminishes them. They pride themselves when they say, I'm not jealous.

Really?

Yes. It's a kind of a thing, like, it's not a nice thing to feel. Other cultures or Latin cultures, it's intrinsic to love.

It's how you love.

If you're not jealous, you don't love the person enough. Yes, that's a distortion in the other direction. But it's very cultural. Jealousy. Jealousy, if you track the magazines in America, is a subject that disappears for decades sometimes and then suddenly reemerges. But it is often seen as a negative emotion. It isn't seen as an emotion that is so simply purpose, part and parcel of the experience of love.

Is jealousy, then, a healthy emotion in a life story?

It sometimes can be a perfectly healthy emotion, and sometimes it can be very, very challenging. And sometimes it can become pathological. It covers a whole range.

Where is jealousy a good thing when someone has jealousy?

When is jealousy a good thing? When have you experienced jealousy and you didn't feel like it was debilitating and crippling you?

I mean. Debilitating? I mean. Yeah, I don't know. I think there might be.

I don't.

I mean, it was always debilitating for me, I think, before I learned to process it and let it go. Because I realized it wasn't supporting my thoughts and my emotions and I was saying or doing things that wasn't the highest level of love, I would say, or, like, the most conscious way to communicate, you know, when those scenarios would happen. So I just realized it wasn't supporting me and I didn't feel good when I had that emotion or those jealous thoughts in a relationship.

But if you were part of a culture that told you that jealousy is not something you want to get rid of, but it actually signals certain things to you and it communicates certain aspects of love, you would have had a different Experience, maybe now. When is it positive? Probably the easiest example for me is if I ask people all over the world. By the way, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not sexually attracted, just drawn to when.

Other people are interested in that more.

That's one of them. That is one of the main four.

When other people are flirting or giving.

Them attention, when I see them with other people, when I see other people captivated by them, when I see the magnetism that they have over other people, when I see how others are drawn to them when they don't belong to me. Now, if you are jealous in a feeling that is really crippling and painful, then you do not enjoy that. You feel uncertain, you feel insecure, you feel scared, you feel like they could leave you. You realize that maybe, you know, they're not attached to you. But if you are more grounded and if you feel more secure in your connection to your partner and to yourself, yourself, then when you see that experience, you have a tingling of jealousy. But it is a jealousy that actually increases your appreciation for your person.

Interesting. Yeah.

So that's an example of when do people experience jealousy in a way that actually is fueling healthy jealousy?

Right.

Okay.

I don't. But I don't think healthy and unhealthy, because I don't think this is a puritanical definition. Health. It's just it. This is the issue. Is that is it problematic or is.

It additive that makes sense.

It's more than is it healthy or unhealthy. I think healthy and unhealthy doesn't help us in this moment.

Is it hurting you or the relationship or is it supporting the relationship?

Yes.

So you've had four ways.

Yes.

What's the other three, then?

So let me ask you, when do you find yourself most drawn?

What would you say to Martha? I find myself drawn to her. I mean, for me, I feel drawn when she loves and accepts me for who I am, when she's affectionate, when.

She.

Is sharing appreciation with me and gratitude with me, when she's joyful and her most expressed self, like just pure energy and love and fun and play. I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for her when she is living her dreams. Also, like, she's doing what she wants to do fully. And I'm like, that's inspiring. You know, it draws me to her. What else? I think the fact that she is so in integrity with her word draws me to her because then I feel more and more connected and grateful and appreciative and safe in the environment. So I mean sexually, so many different ways I'm drawn to.

But you, you know, when I say the first four, it's just simply because I've gone around the world asking this question and I just began to see themes.

Right.

The first one is when I see my partner in their element.

Yeah. Doing their thing.

Doing their thing. Competent, radiant, in their element. It could be on stage, at work, on a horse, on a slope, you know, but it is basically when they are self sufficient and when they are radiant and they're in their element and they're passionate about something and they are alive. And all of those things also mean that I am not needing to be burdened by a certain form of emotional caretaking. They don't need me. That's it. And when they don't need you, you can want them.

Yes. If they're always needing you, how does that affect the relationship?

So let's wait a second. So they don't need you in that moment. And that not needing you clears the pathway for desire. It allows you to want. Because if you were needed and you need to take care of them, then you are loving, but you're not necessarily desiring.

Got it?

And what happens over time when people say this? And the admiration is extremely important here because I think it's much bigger than respect. Admiration involves a certain idealization and it means that there is a sense of otherness. She's different, she's other, she's her own thing. And in this space between her and you, between me and the other, lies the erotic Elon. When people ask about sustaining desire in the long haul, this is the place.

In their element, in their own way.

Yes.

Not reliant on each other to be.

That's love. Love and desire. They relate and they also conflict. And herein lies the mystery of eroticism. So that's number one. In her element, when she's joyful, when she makes me laugh, when those two, it's like there's a sense of aliveness, of vibrancy, of vitality, of energy. That is erotic. That is erotic. That's the number two. And usually it means when there is an element of suppression.

Yeah, she's very adventurous because it's unsolicited.

But you know, sometimes people say when my partner is vulnerable, and I say that is because it's not usual the case.

Right. So it's surprise.

It's surprise. If they were always vulnerable, it would not be on the list of when am I most drawn to my partner. It's because it's Different. It's the side of them I don't get to see so often. It's the side of me that they don't get to see that often. So when they accept me fully and I can open up in a different way because it's different, it's unusual, it's out of the ordinary. That's number two. Number three is when I see my partner through the eyes of the others. That's the jealousy piece that you describe.

So when you see others admiring or respecting or attracted to sexually or any of those things.

But what does it mean? It means my partner doesn't belong to me. It means that other people can look at them too, can fantasize about them too. I always say, your partner doesn't belong to you. They're just on loan with an option to renew.

Right. Every day, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Interesting.

And the fourth one is when we are apart or when we reunite. So that desire is also rooted in absence and in longing and not just in being there.

How important is creating space in a relationship, whether you're dating or in a marriage, and creating day apart, days apart, weeks apart? And has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay growing? If it's months apart or something.

So the first question is, how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David White this week when we had a conversation together and he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.

Not always having to speak or.

Yes. Or the importance of being able to be with yourself while being in the presence of the other.

What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the. In the room.

Could be that. Could be that you go away for a few weeks because you want to go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in. Or, you know, it's the notion that. Or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself, but that you stay in dialogue with yourself. And a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.

When you mean silent with yourself, you mean, like, not speaking at all for part of this time, or do you just mean not.

You're taking it literally. It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it. So I'll explain the context our conversation was called, because that's your question about how important is distance? I would say distance is very important in a relationship. But the way I define it is every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness, connection and independence. Every relationship. In every relationship, there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness. One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment. One person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both, but we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality.

And it might evolve seasonally too completely.

So we need connection and we need distance. We need the things that are joined and together, and we need the things that are separate. The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship. So when you ask, how long can we be apart? It depends what you do with the space in between. If you keep the space in between alive.

We are away.

We have been together five, six years and you have to go do a project and you're gone for three months. But during those three months, you have a whole letter writing experience where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication every two days. So at night you sit down and you write a letter. Not just what you've done, the catch up of the day, but then you create an aliveness to that space in between that can be even richer than when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every morning.

That's interesting. That's powerful. Yeah. What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships that you had to face yourself?

Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband Jack when I was 22.

You're what, you're 35 now?

Yes, I like it. And actually 35 years together. Yes.

Really? 35 years together.

Married? Married.

Wow.

We're together even more than that.

Wow.

It's powerful, you know, but I probably swallowed the romantic ideal quite a bit as a young girl too. Are you gonna meet the right man with this man? If you meet the right person, you will never feel alone again. You will never feel lonely, you will never be sad. You will seriously, you know, whatever you feel, you will feel again. Until some of it you may feel until you drop dead. But if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths.

How long did it take for you internally to. To let that go or evolve or heal those myths?

Ah, yeah, I would say the first decade. You know, it's slowly over time, you begin to, you know, you begin to realize That I think, you know, he was. I looked up to him. I still look up to him. He's a very smart guy. And I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him.

Interesting.

Is this smart? Is this good? Can I publish this?

Getting approval.

Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.

Interesting. That was the first 10 years.

Yeah. No, maybe a little bit less than 10, but certainly five years.

Okay.

Certainly five years. I really needed him to.

Validate, check.

Everything I would write and to validate and say it's. It's good because he had the PhD. I don't, you know, the whole. And then finally I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write. I'm not gonna be your project. And I was just like, oh, I'm gonna. Who's gonna help me? Who's gonna help me? You know? And beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition. Meeting in Captivity was written completely, completely.

On my own without his approval of every chapter.

I had an editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer. It was not an emotional dependency. It was a professional relationship. So that was a major transition. I think, also understanding the difference between equality and equity.

What is the difference?

It's not 50. 50.

The relationship is not. No, no relationship.

No, it's 100. 100. You know, and complementarity. There are certain things that I will never do that I rely on him, and certain things that he will never do, and he relies on me, and they balance each other out. And there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity. You know, if I want to go do something, it's just go, do, enjoy, be the best. You know, this complete generosity and that generosity towards distance or freedom or individuality. This is a very important thing. So here's a question for you and for your listeners as well. Ask yourself, you can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love. To me, that was a very important question. I understood early on that I needed freedom. No, I want to put it differently. I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.

You needed freedom more than insecurity.

So I understood early on that I'm going to be self employed, meaning I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is going to come from. But I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation.

This was back in the 80s, right?

Yes, yes. This is my 20s, early 20s. But then I applied it to relationships Interesting. I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, go do your thing. And someone who says to me, go do your thing more than someone who does this.

Back then, that wasn't really thought of that much, was it? That wasn't really as acceptable. Or maybe, I don't know, people didn't really think that way. Or did they? Look, maybe the U.S. it was different.

No, but you also need the same way that I said to you. Sexuality changes in a relationship when you have contraception. Well, freedom changes in a relationship when you have economic independence for women.

Interesting.

Otherwise, if the woman cannot conceive of her life separately from her partner, then what happens? And that at that time, primarily male partner, but I would say all partner, then you cannot talk about freedom because that means you can't leave. It means that you continuously depend on the person. And the law supported that. It's a legal issue. It's not just a psychological issue. Economic independence is an economic dependence on the part of women and mothers was legal. It wasn't just a statement of her ambitions.

Interesting. Do you think more people are able and wanting to get divorces now? Because both parties have economic independence and you don't need to stay because someone is providing or paying certain bills that you can provide for yourself and either party.

So divorce went up in the United States when women entered the workforce in a way that they could support themselves economically. The law changed.

Was that because they were more independent financially or because they were off doing other things and there were distractions because.

Of economic independence which would allow them. It's a few different things. Legally, it's alimony so that children continue to be cared for and she's not entirely responsible for them or she doesn't lose them and they go with the father. So now we're in the reverse side. The tension is on the other side, but it's a few pieces. It's being destitute, it's losing your children, it's not having anybody to care for you, and it's not being protected by the law. Those four things need to combine with having an economic independence that then allow you to not be destitute, be able to take care of your children, not rely on your partner in case they don't support you or can't support you, etc. So that is the history of divorce. You can't separate the history of divorce from the economic changes and the legal changes around family policy.

How long do you think people should date before they get married to really know, like, if they're giving themselves the best chance for not divorce, let's say.

Depends how, how they date.

Interesting.

If their dating is a, you know, surface level. Exactly. Parading of the best things of me, then it doesn't matter how long, it doesn't change, you know. But I would say that the dating, the most important pieces of dating. I think the dating is really bizarre at this moment because most people. Because you date and you know, and you date alone, you see the person alone. When in fact you learn so much more from seeing people in social situations.

You mean with their friends or family?

Bring your person on date two to people. You know what I did, I had a dinner at my house and it was a bunch of single people. And then one of them at one point said, I actually need to be talking about relationships and long term and how do you know all these questions that you're asking me? And at one point one of them said, well, I actually need to go because I have a blind date. So I said, bring him here. Where are you going exactly? What are you going to do? Sit in a noisy bar where you can't hear each other? Bring them over, you know, so much more. And anyway, she was really bored. She did it. The guy came too. So everybody doing their part, and there's about 12 of us there and he shows up and we just tell him, we're in the middle of this conversation, that's crazy. And. And then I, you know. But the point was you, you know how much we learned about this guy. And she learned about him, but we all did too. Learn a lot, A lot. Who he was in the family, where he's from, and he's thinking about couples. And I mean, seriously, he.

And he was adventurous. He was willing to come and be a part of this experiment, the whole thing.

And I actually ran into this woman a few years later.

Were they still dating or.

No, they didn't date. But she never forgot it and neither did he, and neither did I. Bring people you meet in your circle, first of all, your friends see things that you don't see and they often don't want to tell you. And they see it and they know you. Second of all, you'll see how a person interacts with the social circle rather than in this kind of dissociated space. Space. So I think that this notion of we sit alone, we sit alone, we sit. And only later do we bring in.

To introduce each other is months later, months later. Let me introduce them now to the family. Let me introduce them after six months. Sometimes and then like, huh, I don't like this, this and this. But now you're already developing something.

I asked my boys, you know, I said, did your friends meet her? Who knows her?

No one.

You know, I mean, you make sure they.

Why expose them to people quickly.

Yes. And you don't have to go and get them checked. It's not that you can go and, you know, go to a concert, share some activity together, but you will learn about. We learned about people not in a vacuum. We learn about people in social situations. You learn about people in how they treat the cab driver, the waiter, the dry cleaner, the person on the street, the homeless person, the policeman. Everybody just watch people in action. See how they relate to others while they're trying to be super nice to you. And that is a more precise piece of information than how long should we date?

Yes, that's powerful. If you got value from that, then go ahead and stick around for more. Coming up.

Right now, your definition of happy and thriving and fulfilled is probably very different than many other cultures where being healthy, having enough to eat, having children, having grandchildren, having good jobs, being respected in the community is happy and thriving is happy and thriving. It's not about you and I are talking on the couch and I'm pouring my heart at you and you are telling me I'm the best thing that's ever happened to you in your life. And all of that. Okay, that's one version. That's one version is you have got to look at the word happiness and thriving really in a cross cultural context because a lot of us, by the way, who have the new definition have parents who think about marriage and what is a happy marriage with the other definition? And I'm wondering, you know, that maybe we are so unhappy because we want so many other things that are maybe not part of marriage.

We have such high expectations.

We have super high expectations. We want everything. We want a partner to be an entire community. My best friend, my trusted confidant, my passionate lover, my intellectual equal, my co parent. And on top of it, I want with you to deal with all the physicians of the everyday life and all of what we need to get to all of that. And then we have should also be passionate, great lovers, fantastic travelers. Exactly. You know, and very few dancing every week.

Yeah.

So Eli Finkel has a best answer for you on that. He's a researcher on marriage. And basically what he says is that the good relationships of today are better than the relationships of history, but they're very few. Because the good, what you call that Happiness is the top of the Olympus. It's climbing the mountain. And at the top of the mountain, the view is fantastic, but the air is also thinner. And not everybody can climb the mountain. The people who get to the top, their top is probably better than the tops of the past. Now, what is the top? It used to be that marriage was for survival. Then it became a romantic enterprise and it became what I call the service economy. From the production economy to the service economy, you want children, but no longer just eight, so you only want two. So sexuality becomes for pleasure and connection, so it becomes a service economy. It's no longer a production. And then from there you go into identity, which is what I want to become the best version of myself. And you're going to help me do so. That's the identity story of marriage. And that goes up the Maslow ladder. Now, if I ask the question differently, I actually wanted to write that very article about 10, 15 years ago. I set out to write in peace. What are creative couples? And do you know, because creative was the word I was interested in. Not so much happy, passionate, but creative, meaning not stable, not solid. But what is this thing creativity, the spark? And I went and I asked almost 100 people, do you know couples that inspire you? Do you know couples that you think have that spark still? And the frightening thing was that the majority of people could sometimes come up with one, maybe two, and that was it. You know, they knew people who were very good at renovations and people who were great parents together and people who, who were great business partners together. But that whole that you talk about, there were very few. And I thought, that is so sad because here we are, we want something. I mean, if I say good business partners or business leaders, you would give me 10 people who you think inspire you to run a company or authors or musicians, or we all have a long list who can say, what's your favorite musician? I mean, most, most of us have more than one. When it comes to intimate relationships, people have very few models. Now, maybe it is because what they want is so high that there is very few models, actually. And that's probably the challenge of intimate relationships today.

So how do we, how do we find, how do we create that in an intimate partner? Or is it setting a lower expectation for what we want so that we don't?

It's both. I think sometimes if you lower your expectations, you're much better off. No doubt. So back to Eli Finkel's research. Calibrating expectations is probably one of the most. The three main things for what he calls successful relationships. Wow. And calibrating doesn't mean you lower your expectations necessarily, but you also diversify them. You don't ask, why one person to give you what the whole village should actually give you.

Right. Okay, that was the first thing. What's the second? You said there's three things.

So one is the calibration of the expectation, two is the diversification. And three, which is the one that very much speaks to me is doing new things with your partner. With your partner. That if you do the things that you enjoy, that's really nice, that's comfortable, that's cozy, that solidifies the friendship. But if you want to create intensity, it demands risk taking. Doing new things outside of your comfort zone, a little bit more on the edge.

How often should we be doing new things with our intimate partner?

I think as often. I mean, look, the answer to this is very simple. Often enough, but not too often that you become chaotic and you dysregulate. Right now you're asking me a systemic question. This is true for an individual, a relationship or a company. If you don't change or grow, you fossilize and you die. If you change too much, too fast, no stability. There's no stability. You go chaotic and you disregulate. So how often it depends on where you are at in your life. Are you, the two of you, do you have kids? Do you, do you have little ones? Do you have aging parents? Are you taking care of somebody? What else is going on here will tell you if this is a period where you need more stability or if this is a period where it's time to go and be curious and explore and discover and go into the world and launch.

Right. If you're a young 30 something female, I get this all the time from a lot of women who reach out to me who are ending relationships that were really stressful for them or they've been single for years and they're trying to figure out how do they find the right person or how do they create the right relationship for them that's going to be a long term partner. If you're a female in your young 30s, what should they be thinking about? Should they be focusing first on themselves, growing themselves, or what are the things they should be looking for in the right partner.

I just wrote my current blog, which is a little bit of a critique of this. Taking care of yourself first because you learn to love yourself in the context of your relationships with others. This idea that you go first to work on yourself here and then you Prepare this nice little package and you bring it to relationships. That is completely off. Actually, it's interactive. You, you need a good amount of self awareness, but you also need to be in relationships. Because it's people who help you become more aware. Practicing it, practicing it. But other people let you see who you are. It's by being with others that you get to know who you are. Not just by sitting there alone and say, who am I? Who am I? But this is a relational perspective on life and I will stand by that. Read the newsletter. I really poured myself into that one because I'm tired a little bit of this. No, what I will say to you, I'm tired of the go fix yourself first and then go be in a relationship. Relationships help you to become who you are. That's what happens between children and their caregivers. The next thing is, instead of constantly thinking, who's the right person I'm going to find, why don't you ask yourself, who do you want to be? Who should the other one be? No, maybe it's on occasion ask, who will I be as a partner? Who have I been till now in my relationships? How have I shown up?

What is it that I do?

Not just, you know, finding the right person. Now, what does it mean to find the right person? And there, I will say, the simplest way of looking at it is this. There are many people you will love and they are not necessarily the same people that you will make a life with. Are you looking for a love story or are you looking for a life story? You understand? Yeah, there are many people have had love stories. This is a whole different story. I never thought for a minute I would live with these people.

Take something else.

To have a partner in life with whom you're going to go through the pains, the sufferings, the challenges, all of that.

Can you have a life partner and still have?

Of course. Of course. You want the life partner to be a love story too. But the love stories per se are not life stories. It's different ingredients, it's different values. There's some things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone. It lives in its encapsulated version on its own. You're not thinking, can I do this with you? Can I get old with you? Can I take you to my parents? Can you know, do we share similar. It's about values, life, not just about feelings. So when you're looking for the right person, it's not just what attracts you, it's who can you Build a life.

With how many values in common do you need to have with your partner? Life partner?

Because the important ones, it's not how many, but there are a few of them that are really. That are really important.

Which ones would you say that make or break based on your experience?

I think I'm not going to say them in order of importance, but one of them that really matters is your relationship to others. If you are a person that values relationships, that sees the presence of others in your life as central and you are with somebody who does not want community or does not know how. I mean, I'm talking not about what they would like to learn through you, but their value is you do things alone, you live alone, you rely on yourself. You know, you don't bring people over to the house. I have a couple I just spoke with yesterday, you know, and he loves to have people over. And she just, nobody should come ever to the house. He wasn't her space, the whole thing. And I'm thinking, wow, this is a tough one. It's not just about the house. His whole life is about being with people and her whole life is about not being with people necessarily. That's not how she experiences him. Now the question is, is she drawn to more of what he has to offer and is he drawn to more of what she. If these are totally, then then okay, different values come together and they mix and match. But if you have these two separations like that. So that's one. One of the beautiful questions I ask in how is Work? Is were you raised for autonomy or were you raised for loyalty? Were you raised for self reliance or were you raised for interdependence? Which one would you say?

For me it was self reliance, meaning what you have.

Nobody will ever help you as well as you can help yourself. You only have yourself to count on. Don't trust people. You're on your own body.

Or raised for loyalty.

Interdependence, Loyalty. You're never alone. There's people around you. You owe others, others are there for you. Relationships is what makes you.

I think I was both based on like circumstances.

Correct. The circumstances made you reliable because you were alone with mom, but the messaging was, you have me.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Okay.

So I think both.

I think that question is a fundamentally interesting question.

Okay.

That people can ask themselves when they partner in business and in love.

Raised for self reliance or loyalty.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interdependence. Are you part. Do you see yourself as connected to others and it's your connections that give you a Sense of anchoring, meaning, relevance, importance in all of that, or do you see yourself as fundamentally on your own? I think travel, curiosity. You often will have a complementarity between one person who is curious and eager to discover and goes on, you know, and then another person.

Your question about doesn't want to travel.

Doesn't want. But it's also. Likes comfort, likes repetition, likes the familiar. I think the religious values, if you have a person who you know, those matter a great deal. Children, do you want family or do you not want family? If you want a family, then make sure that you find someone who wants a family.

What's the point of being like, what.

Are you going to do? Try to convince them, you know? Now, I don't think you have to have the same values on everything. I think you have to have a similar outlook on life, which is a vision, like exactly the same as when you. A vision. Do you. Do you want to own a home? Do you think that economic achievement is important? Do you want to live in an extended family? You think that living intergenerationally really is important. And you have somebody else who says, you know, I don't want your parents over, you know, do you want to live in more than one place? I think these are essential. Money, feelings or emotions, religious beliefs, attitude toward life. It's not a specific value about something. A value is a cluster of things. It's a cluster of important importance, of systems of meanings. That's a value.

And you may not find someone with everything is the same, but someone with a similar mindset. As we were saying, I met a.

Husband of mine with whom I am for more than three decades, who had never left the US When I met him, really, I never knew such a person existed. Coming from Europe, that was unheard of.

You lived in Europe?

No, he lived in the States. He was American. I came from Europe. In Europe, you travel everywhere, all the time, even if you have nothing. You work one month, you get the money, and then you go to the next country, which is two hours away.

He never traveled outside of the U.S.

He had never been outside of the U.S. well, he will always tell me he'd been to the Virgin Islands, but, you know, for the rest. And I thought, oh, my God, how does one you know who is such a person? But I knew it was because of the circumstances of his life and that if he could, he would. And he was intensely curious. If you just said, oh, he's never traveled, then you misinterpret. You don't want to just look at the Manifest thing you want to say. And behind this, is there someone who would actually like that, who just hasn't had the opportunity and is curious and just says, let's go. So don't get fooled just by what you see. Find out what is the belief behind it, the aspiration, the longing, the interest. And then you get a sense of what is the value.

Do you think it's. I'm gonna go back to expectation. Do you feel like we should lower or should diversify expectations or. What did you say the word was?

Calibrate.

Calibrate expectations. Or should we be finding someone that can reach that expectation, that we.

No, I think it's.

I think it's just impossible.

I think you need to calibrate.

Calibrate. Always calibrate, too.

You calibrate. You constantly will be disappointed. Do you know a single relationship where you haven't been disappointed?

No.

Okay. I mean disappointment, which can lead to suffering. It's part of a relationship. The minute you have a relationship, you have an expectation. That expectation means that you want something. Something. Love, closeness, intimacy, partnership, business affiliation. You name it creates dependence. The moment you have an attachment, you have dependence. That dependence means that you have power or I have power. If I expect something from you, I confer power on you. You have power over me. I have power over you. By definition, there will be moments when that power doesn't go in the direction that I want.

And I'll be disappointed.

I'll be disappointed. Is there a single child that didn't have a disappointment from their parents? It doesn't exist. This idyllic thing you're talking about. It doesn't exist. The next thing is, what do you do with that disappointment? Hey, can I come? Tell you, I'm really disappointed. You let me down. I thought we were in this together. I trusted you. And you say, I see your point. Or do you say, what the hell are you talking about? You're just inventing this. You're delusional. None of the. You know. And everything in between. That's how you do a relationship. It's really based on the repair. It's not based on the.

It's how we heal the disappointment.

Yes. It's how you repair all these breaches. Moment by moment. You come back, you know, and the repair is not. I am so sorry. The repair may sometimes be. Hey, do you want a class of water or. Hey, did you see this article in the newspaper? John Gottman has this very interesting thing about that. He says, the repair is not that you come and you do A mea culpa. It's that you do what he calls bids for connection. You show the other that they still matter. I brought a newspaper in at a time when we still had newspapers. That was one of his examples. You know, I brought a paper in like I think of you. I'm pissed at you. You just annoyed me. We just had a spat. But you're still.

I still care about you.

I still care.

You're still in my life.

I still respect you. So it's how we repair disappointment on a daily or weekly or monthly basis. Minutes sometimes is the success of the relationship.

And that means also how you come and you say you take responsibility. Yes. I actually think that taking responsibility is the ultimate freedom. I messed up. I shouldn't have done this. Can I do that? It really is being accountable.

What are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer you're in? What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?

There's always three questions.

What's a thriving relationship?

A thriving one?

What can go wrong and how do you fix it? So you started with the middle question.

What goes wrong?

I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the kind of cornerstones of the demise.

Okay?

And I'm not going to list them in order, but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect. Violence are probably the four most important. Okay, I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.

Just don't care. You've lost interest.

But it's more than losing of interest. It's also when you are doing different, you degrade the other person. They're less interesting, important to you. They don't matter. And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me. You want my male, you want my well being, you're proud of me, you, you want good for me, you're benevolent, all of that. When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes. And then you start to. There's that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect that. The second one is neglect. Neglect when people just Basically take each other for granted. You know, they take more care of their car than of their partner, their dog or their dog, anybody, anything, their yard, anything, anything. Gets attendance, their business, their business for sure. Their business for sure. You know, everything gets priority. Everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to 360s, you name it. You know, new input. My God. It's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating, and then once they seal the knot, it's like. As if they tied the knot. It's like now they don't have to do squat anymore, and they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own, right? Like a cactus, right? Violence, violence, the abuse, the level of. Of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades. Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it because it's family. And family is this kind of. This thing that doesn't dissolve so easily, so you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal. That is phenomenal. So that kind of violence. I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big things.

You're talking about aggression or resentment or all of that. All of that, you know, passive aggressiveness. All those things.

Yeah, all of that.

And then.

And then contempt, I think, is the top one. The contempt is the killer of them all. Because in. In the contempt, there is a real. There's the degradation of the.

It's that.

That complete this. You're nothing. You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up that, you know, stuff. Do you. Who do you think you are? What are you? And that's it. You're done.

You're done.

So how do we even get to this place of these places after having.

Been so in love and so romantic? Right?

Is desire reflect that? Or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories? Or does that not play into.

Look, the truth is this. There's only Two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you, and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like.

This or thinks this about me or.

With whom I do this. No, you're the only one. And now we go back in history, and I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really. It is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking, all these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home.

We also learned jealousy and all, possessiveness.

Vengeance, you name them. The beauty and the not beauty.

Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the love. We saw the, you know, we saw the coldness, the lack of intimacy. The intimacy, yes.

And we bring that with us. And we often promise ourselves, I'll never be this one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this.

I'll.

You know. And we find ourselves often much closer to the apple.

And then resenting ourselves to the tree, we resent ourselves. We're like, how did we do that? Why did we get to this place?

And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner. That's just one of the ways. There's a lot. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit.

Right.

Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play into all this and desire?

So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time. For most of history and in still the majority of the world, sex is for procreation. Sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares, particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time. We're talking 60 years. We have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time, to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death, in pregnancy and in childbirth. Sorry.

All of that.

And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.

In 60 years, in 60 years.

The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stop having sex with others. Okay. Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to say, okay, all of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter. Commitment, because I'm attracted to you, because you give me butterflies in my stomach. And the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long term relationships is rooted in wanting, only desire. I feel like it. I want to, not. I have to not. We want many kids after two kids. The only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it.

Right.

It's fun, it's pleasurable, we connect, it feels good. It rounds us, deepens our relationship, the whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other. Because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home.

Right? Exactly.

So this is an amazing revolution, sex.

That is confusing all of us.

And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire. And how do we sustain desire? Because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful. And we live twice as long.

Go figure, right?

Exactly. For 60 years you're going to be with them or whatever it is. Yeah.

It's an amazing ideal.

So how do we navigate this? If we're going to choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone. How do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?

I think the first, both men and.

Women, because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?

Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.

Wow. This is a factor. Is this fact.

That's research.

That's not just fact. That is men's desire in long Term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire post marriage, really? Wow. And it's always been translated as well, that's because women care less about sex rather than. It's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn on for the woman, often disappears in the long term relationship. It's like people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around. You want to do it. You're up for it tonight. Now this is really not. This is not very much of a turn on for most women. And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing.

Right.

Which for her is not the real thing. The whole. The real thing is everything else.

So it's essentially the game.

Yes.

It's creating a game, seduction.

It's a plot, it's a coming close, it's a tease, mystery. It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me. And then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets. But we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are. But women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security.

Safety.

Security.

Family. Someone to protect. Be there.

Right.

So what people do. Look, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves protection, playfulness and mystery. Okay? That's the grand ideal. Okay. I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge. And I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty.

That's it. As if it's a right.

And no Victoria's Secret is going to solve that.

Yeah.

Right.

So then it becomes what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting if you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when I turn myself off by not you turn me off when. And what turns me off is you're gonna hear, I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad, bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel confident thriving, when I'm not alive. You will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, I turn myself on when or by I awaken my desires, not you turn me on when and what turns me on is. Which is that is you're responsible for my wanting, right? What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music, it's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul. Not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds. It's I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, that is, they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down and lonely and sad.

They're not needy, they don't need me. Because desire is about wanting you.

Love is also about needing you.

Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti aphrodisiac.

So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?

You calibrate it.

So sometimes you're.

It's the same as when you walk. You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see. See, right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our own rules, we can stay home and not go to work at.

8 o', clock, right?

And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. We are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens. It's that it's very small. I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all I see who is here with their partner.

Because.

You can see them, they're engaged, they're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night. Date. Meet at lunch. When you actually have energy, you know, when you.

And.

And in the middle of the day.

Like that, when you're awake, when you.

Have something to offer. It's a very small thing. But they don't do it. They don't do it. And you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning? And not just. Because when you have a headache and just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just going to happen because whatever is going to just happen already has. So you're going to make it happen because you say, we matter, we're important, let's do this, let's spend. Doesn't mean if you're going to make love or have sex. It just means we're going to take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment but just you and I to be together, to check in and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen.

Probably will.

It doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love. Right? The citizen, the commitment, the caretaker, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too.

Oh, exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk taking. Right, Exactly.

Yeah. There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you differently from. Differently from the way I typically present myself. You know, how can I do this? What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now. How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me. Right. Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us. Right. And you check every time. You know, how often do you just go on the tried and trodden as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough.

Right.

So because what does it mean?

It works generally, Right.

What about the people listening who are saying, man, that sounds like a lot of work. That every day you have to change, do something different and unique and be.

Not every day. Not every day. Not every day. But what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. You know, is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up a tight. It's small. It's really small. Here's the thing. There is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you.

And that actually gives you, you feel taller.

You just feel like you're engaged, you feel awake. Rather than this, this is the other seated position. It's comfortable, it's great. But nothing happens here.

Sure.

This, this is alert.

Here's the essential word, is curiosity. When you curious, you lean forward and you watch. You're open to the mysteries of life. This is, please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share, you know, and this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much.

Work, I basically say, look, if I.

Was to say this, in your business.

Would you say this is too much.

Work or you would say, that's very good advice.

This is high rate consulting fees.

It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that. Never. You have a reward system. You have incentives, bonuses, bonuses. But there is no incentivized system in the private domain. So people just think, why bother? And that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentivized system.

What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or effective for long term relationships?

I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop thanking their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts.

Thank you for, you know, maybe you feel appreciated.

Yes.

Appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude. Acknowledgment of the presence of the other in your life. Not, did you do this? Did you call? Did you pick up, do this? You know, half the time.

Expectations, Expectations.

Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make.

With the expectation comes the fear of it's not good.

Thank person, first of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat. You're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable.

Right.

And with the divorce rate that we.

Have, what's the rate at right now?

50 on first and 65 on second.

65 on second. Wow.

It's not good, right? It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know.

It'S not good for the jobs.

It's like, okay, now, you could say, maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or. The idea is that we can do better. We can do better. In general, I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's going to write, you.

Know.

You worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week. And, you know, no, they're gonna say, he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game. He was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma. Not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded.

Right.

Go an extra thing on occasion, just do something for the other person just because it matters to them. Even if you couldn't care less.

Right.

Rather than, I don't. It's not important to me. I don't. I don't need this or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends. And they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge because admiration is also that you can really see the otherness of the other person. Don't try to make your partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a group of people support.

Support you.

And don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything. Especially when you're in the dumpster.

We used to have a village of people to do that. Now we just expect one person to be the village, Right?

Yes, yes, yes.

One person for the whole village. That is a unique. And then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate. And that's the more important.

Like, I can't talk to you.

You're not supportive of me, you're not excited for me. Excuse me. Find other people.

People. Right.

You know I can't be everything for you. Yeah, no, exactly.

No, I think it's really wonderful to integrate all parts of ourselves, to stare at our shadow, to at least bring our shame into the light of day, and to find venues to connect with other people where we can show up perfectly, authentically raw, vulnerable ourselves and have reflected back to us. I see you and I still accept you.

Yes.