The 7 PSYCHOLOGICAL Tricks Reveals How To Get THE TRUTH Out Of Anyone | Evy Poumpouras

Rolling into all these techniques is very good. When you have someone who's reluctant to speak with you, when you want to evoke emotion. This is why really paying attention to the human being across from you matters. Once you do this, tell me about.

A characteristic or a belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.

I liked. There's a couple. There's like little things. I'll tell you. President, former President George Bush Senior. He used to write note cards to everybody. He had a little. He wrote note cards, thank you so much. He would just send little note cards to people and I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a handwritten note. He hand wrote it from someone saying, thank you, I appreciate you. And to this day I do that. And I took that from President George Bush because I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing. And I saw how much of an impact that did. It was a very little thing, but I took that from him. So whenever I meet someone or there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it and it does a lot.

Did he write you a card?

He did not write me a card. He wasn't my full time protectee. But I watched.

Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people or you saw other people get it.

You would see them when they would work and you would know what they did or didn't do. But that's what he did. Another characteristics, I think I liked President Obama. I like the way he spoke. And for me that was very. I appreciated that because I, although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself. It's weird, right? I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that, but I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people and what I loved. You could hear him. You could hear him. Usually you call Renegade. I could say it. It's public, it's on. It's in his book Renegade on the Move. Right? You could, you could hear the agents say that, but you could hear him. You could hear him. You could. I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back. And how he took his time to speak where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time. I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast. We do that. We Feel like, let me just hurry up and say this. This person's probably busy. They have things to do. And then he really projected his voice like it boomed through the hallways. And that was a person who was not shy of being present, of taking. Taking us space and letting you know, I'm here and my voice is relevant. I like that.

That's powerful.

Yes.

Any other characteristics from anyone else?

There's so many.

The ones that wowed you, that stood out.

They all did. Like, they were all great. George Washington. George Washington. Oh, my God.

All right, how old are you?

GW President George Bush. He like, I love going to the ranch with him. I'm from New York City. I go to Texas. And I was just like, what did you know? It was like we were out in the wild. He's like, we're going. We're going to make trails. I was like, why are we going to make trails? There's a road right there. You know, we'd cut trails and hike. And he was very authentic. Who he was on camera was who he was off camera and vice versa. He was very. Just real. And so you'd see these qualities with different people. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. I just thought of it. I was almost like in my own school of greatness by being in the White House. And then over all the years of about. You're around all these people, these influential leaders, despite. Forget politics. And it still takes a person of some.

To get there.

Yes, to get there. And so you watch them. And then not just them, they've got cabinet members, other individuals who, you know, you watch and you listen to, you see how they problem solve. And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row. And you're doing your job. At the same time, you're like, you're listening, you're watching, you're absorbing. I loved it.

Were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority in just their way of being tonality? Was it touching people in their hand? Is it. Whatever it is, look, eye contact. What were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you?

So I'll tell you this. They didn't have to work as hard.

Because they're already the authority.

They're already the authority. So I want to say that they don't. Person can look at you, be like, hey, how you doing? And then, like, blow you off, and you're like, oh, My God, I got, like, a whole solid second. Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, you only gave me a second. Right. So they don't have to work as hard. So even the little attention they give you lands on you. However, though, eye contact is huge. When you talk to someone and you want to convey I. You want to convey, hey, trust me. And rapport. This is huge. In fact, if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes, they have cartoon. The characters on the cereal boxes, they're looking at you. You know where a lot of them look down? They're looking down. You know who they're looking down. You'll see cereal boxes where the character.

Looks down at the cereal.

No, I'm a cereal box. Right. I'm the Trix rabbit or whatever. Right now you go shopping. I'm not looking at you. I'm looking down. Why am I looking down?

The rabbit's looking down.

Right? The rabbit's looking down. Thank you. Wow. Because the kid's the consumer.

Yeah. Not the adult.

No.

The kid's gonna say, mom, come grab me.

Mom, buy that for me.

Oh, my God.

So they designed them to actually look down, and they also put them at a certain level, and so maybe in adult serial, they'll have the person looking at higher up because they're looking at the adult. Eye contact is huge. It conveys, trust me, talk to me. I'm here. I'm connected with you. Even when you want to listen to people, normally, we do break eye contact, but good communicators will lock in. They're not uncomfortable. They're there. I'm with you. I'm connected with you. That is huge. But you touched on literally touching people, and you would see a tactic. I don't want to say a tactic, but it's a tactic.

It's a strategy.

It's a strategy is, you know, hey, you know, Louis, and, you know, maybe I like to touch your forearm. Yeah, you can do that. But I will say, today you can't do that. Today is very different. You know, they would teach us that. They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey. And I could be like, whoa. Unwanted touch. So now I would actually go against that. I would actually encourage people not to do that, just simply because you don't know how it's going to be received. And now today, it's. You got to be a little bit less is more with that shaking your hand.

Maybe that's it for, I think a second hand on the top, like a genuine heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. You want to respect people's space. It's a little bit different. I think we have more. Well, we do have more social space now. It's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future.

Interesting. How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching and.

Right. And you have a mask. You can't even see the lower portion of a person's face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures. So it's even harder to read them.

So how do we read people like that? Is it more body language then of like shoulders down as opposed to.

It's harder in person's always better. And obviously, if you're on zoom, you can see the person. But the tone, the inflection of the voice, does it change? Does it not the body posture again? Sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something. You know, the way they deliver a story. For example, when I worked cases, sometimes I did. I did interviews and interrogations, and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes. And they'd say, look, we have this case, and it. We've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is. And I would, you know, I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was. And so I would say, send me. Do you have statements? And they say, yes. And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote.

Written statements. Written statements about what they said. They. Their story is.

Their story is correct. Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police. They got nothing. They have no proof. So they would reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners. You have a bit more expertise in this. Will you help us out? It's an important case. And so I'd say, send me their statements. And so I'd look at their statements, and based on their statements, I would be able sometimes, most of the time, to tell who likely did it. And it was those statements that. And this also happens when we tell a story, when we speak, when you ask somebody, what did you do yesterday? When they deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning every two minutes.

Yeah.

And an end. An arc. When it's a story, it's an arc. It's typically manufactured.

That's a lie, usually.

Yes. Because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that. And so when I would read a story, I would read a statement. And if I read like a story, because the person's like, the liar is like, oh, I gotta write a story. I gotta tell them what I did here, then did here, they're manufacturing it. A truthful person's gonna write how their day went. And a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections. So it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if I correct myself as I'm telling you something, then.

It looks like I'm hiding something and I'm.

I. It looks like I'm. Yes, I'm correcting myself because I'm hiding something. I can't remember my lie, and it's actually not true.

Those are the honest ones.

Yes.

Oh, actually, that was a mistake.

It's a spontaneous correction. When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to or even in writing, you'll see a scribble. It's okay. If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness.

That's an interesting little yes.

And also too like a little one. When somebody uses quotes when they talk to you, they'll say, oh, he said and quote. You know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes. Like, he said, you know, this in quotes. That's also truthful.

The air quotes. When someone uses that. Not on the written paper quotes, but.

Oh, even in both.

Yes, someone uses quotes.

Yes.

And I repeat this, said this. That means they're telling more likely the truth.

Yes, truth.

Why is that?

Because they're being very specific. We also know, based on the research, people who lie, lie vaguely. Remember I said it's work. It's hard work. It's. You're trying to create a lie, tell a lie. Remember the lie. Listen to the person speaking to you. Think about what you want to say. There's so much going on. And so what they do is they. They lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all these details, create all these details. It's just too much. It's a heavy cognitive load.

I heard one time in one of these books or somewhere that when you say I did not, as opposed to I didn't do it, when you're like, more specific of like, I did not do this, is that, generally speaking, more untruthful?

So again, it's thinking of a famous.

President that said, I did not commit these sexual relations.

Well, we know he was dishonest, but. Okay, so you said that statement I did not. And so it is true. Most people like, when did you have pizza this morning for breakfast? No, you're not gonna be like, evie, I did not have pizza this morning for breakfast. Right. You're not going to work so hard. So when people lie, they work very hard sometimes to sell you the lie.

Telling the full story.

Think of a car salesman. How hard do they work? You like, oh, you got to get this, this is great. So when people work that hard, it's likely that there's some deception there. But if I'm just like, no, go pound sand, I didn't do it. And I don't, you know, the truth is typically simple. No. But if that person, though, in their everyday speech always speaks like that, that's where you want to be careful because maybe I'm that person who does that. Or another thing that people say are to be weary of is like when people start off a sentence saying, honestly, honestly, I would never do that.

Truthfully, this would never happen.

Right? But if I use that in my conversation, I sprinkle that all the time into the way I speak. If it's part of my language, then I'm not lying. It's just the way I color my language.

That's why it's good to use the TEDx, the TED approach, to talk for 20, 30 minutes to see how they normally talk.

What are their mannerisms. And you can ask them truthful questions about something where maybe they have to remember something, tell you something like that you know, is truthful rather than just how they feel. And that's, you know, that'll give you indication of like, so you know for sure they're telling me the truth here, you know, oh, tell us about how it was coming in this morning or something very simple. You can ask questions that are benign. They don't, they don't evoke anything.

It's not a yes or no answer.

No, they don't invoke anything. However, though evocation, so we're rolling into all these techniques, is very good when you have someone who's reluctant to speak with you, when you want to evoke emotion. So when you have somebody that's shut down on you, I may call you a liar because I want you to give me something, because you're giving me nothing. And so this is why it's so important to tag people or to know the person you have across from you. Because if I have a resistant person, I'm going to speak a certain way. If I have a high conflict person, I'm going to Speak a certain way. If I have a business relationship and they're amicable, I'm going to speak a different way. If I have someone who's identity based. This is why really paying attention to the human being across from you matters. Once you do this. And then you're going to. You're going to know. You're going to start taking people like up identity, up instrumental up high conflict, and then you're. And then you know how to maneuver.

Interesting. What. What could you test on me right now to see whether I'm lying or telling the truth about something? Maybe not some crazy thing, but just I can.

It won't work because you're telling me to do it. You're prepared for it. That's where it went.

Interesting.

Yes. It won't work.

It never works.

Never works.

Interesting.

No, because you know, you're ready. You're going to lie, you're going to lock in. You're going to do everything I just taught you.

Well, my goal would be to tell the truth and to see if you actually believe it or not.

It has to be organic and it can't be manufactured. And it's. And I wouldn't go straight for it. I would, you know, maybe if I wanted to know about your past criminal history.

Sure.

When you were younger.

Sure.

And there was something that you were maybe one of those things you really didn't want to talk about. And I knew it then I would try to build rapport and get you to speak about it. Or I'd ask you, why don't you want to speak about it? Because sometimes I would have someone and they're like, look, I don't want to talk about this. And I would say, okay, why don't you want to talk about this? It's okay. You don't have to tell me what it is, but why don't you? And sometimes that was a great way for me to open the door. So if I had somebody who would not confess to a crime, you know, or whatever, and I might say, could you just tell me why you don't want to talk about this? Or what are you so worried about if this gets out? And I remember one case, one person said, I don't want my wife to find out. And that moment I was like, he did it, he did it, he did it. He did it. Because he just told me why, if he didn't do it or she didn't do it, that wouldn't be in their mind.

Yeah.

And so people can tell you. So you can start there. Why don't you want to talk about this? Why do you feel this way? What are you worried about? And so that's a different angle from, instead of being like, tell me this. Go back to how they feel. Go to identity. Tell me what it is you're afraid of. Tell me what you're so worried about. Why do you feel that you can't share this? You don't have to tell me anything. Just tell me what's going on with you. As long as I could keep somebody talking, that's it. You just got to keep them doing this.

What was your biggest fear as a. As an agent?

If we're talking interviews, there's two. If we're talking interviews, I never wanted an innocent person to confess to a crime they never committed.

Oh, man, that's sad.

And I was always very, very, very careful. I actually erred on the side. I actually erred more so on the side. I gave more people benefit than the other way around because to me, it was worse to have someone in jail.

Who didn't do it. Yes, that is like the worst thing. It's gotta be horrible for that person.

That was like something that I was very, very, very aware of.

How many people you think are in prison or jail for something they didn't do right now?

I think quite a few. And I think we see it when you look @ now, the DNA testing that we do, the scientific testing that we do to see who gave false confessions, to see how people were manipulated and maneuvered. And it's not always because the interviewer is bad, is because they tend to think again. Law enforcement tends to think most people are deceptive. You come in. Lewis is my guy. No, Louis is my guy. So now, no matter what you say, my, my. Even when you're trying, even when you are saying things that are. Are showing your innocence, I'm still focused on, you did it. So it's confirmation bias. No matter what you say, I'm going to make it fit the narrative I want, which is you did it. So that was a. A very important thing because I had seen it. I knew, man, that's tough how you could do it. And I had people in the room, if they're young, if they're mental health issues, or sometimes you get people in weak moments, or sometimes people see you. You're law enforcement. You're. You're the authority. You're police. I'm supposed to trust you. And they do. And they don't realize that the law allows for police and law enforcement to use deception in the Room to get you to confess. It is legal. So I could say to you, what if. What if I told you I have fingerprints? Oh, I got no fingerprints. What if I told you I have fingerprints? What if I told you that? What would you say? I'm lying. I'm using manipulation. And so some of that stuff, it's not. You know, there's a lot of research and science on this now. Like, it's not good. You don't want to lie to people. You want to try to stay. You really want to try to read them, understand them, and just get them to talk to you. And that's also important, not just with solving cases, but when you interview victims and witnesses. Sometimes the inability to interview somebody properly affects whether a case gets solved or not. So if I don't know how to effectively interview a witness or a victim, I can get bad.

Information. I'm curious. You talked about how it's really hard after a first impression to change your mind about someone, right. Once you see them or you meet with them for a second, or you talk to them for 30 seconds, you kind of have made up probably a lot of your bias about that person, right? Based on the way they look, the way they sound, what they say, facial expression, I'm assuming body language, all these things. If that is so important, the first impression to building influential relationships, what would you say is the thing that we should be thinking about every time we meet someone new, whether it be a stranger or an important meeting, you.

Have to bring all of you. So the majority of what we communicate with people, if we look at the science, this is truly science based, is almost 70% of what you communicate with people is this your body, and people don't pay attention to it. So when they're sitting in a meeting, something as simple as having very poor posture, so slouching the whole time. Sit up, show them you're there. Taking space. So if I take space. So if I was doing this interview with you and I just was kind of sitting like this, right? I'm conveying to everybody out there. I'm not sure of myself. I'm. I don't feel comfortable. I'm insecure. You're gonna. You're gonna make an assessment of me. But when you take up space, when you open yourself up, it shows I matter. I'm here. And this is. People throw that out. People throw the body out. The other thing is paralinguistics is powerful. So paralinguistic is linguistics. Are what you sound like when you speak. My tone, my pitch, my Voice, even. And especially with women. This is one place where women. Sometimes it's. We bring in these really high tones and these very. My girly voice. I can bring that.

In. Everything's a.

Question. Also, did I go out last night? You know, did I. You know, I had dinner. I went with my friends. I'm Evie Pompous. That's. That sends a message about who we are and who we aren't. That where they actually. Some of the research says only 7% of. Only 7% accounts to what you actually say. So people will sit and memorize a speech. They will memorize a speech. I have to get this perfect. But that's only 7% of what people actually hear. So it's the two most important things. Is your body the tool, Are you bringing it? Is it engaging? Are you connecting with people? Do you even eye contact, like, when you talk to someone, are you really looking at them, or do you break eye contact a lot? Most of the time, we break eye contact when we talk to people, especially when we want to remember something. When you're really trying to bring it in a scenario, in an interview, you're hiring someone or they're hiring you, bring it, be there. Eye contact also conveys a huge amount of trust and a huge amount of confidence. So one of the things I hear is, oh, I'm uncomfortable with eye contact. It's going to affect.

You.

Right. Because now when I read you, that's not a confident person. Do I want to hire this confident.

Person? So if they look you in the eyes while they're communicating with you or while you're communicating with them, it shows they're more.

Competent. It conveys strength and trust, confidence in myself. Also eye contact, again, overwhelmingly, when we look at the data and research, it conveys trust. That's why everyone's like, look at me in the eyes and tell me the truth. Look me in the eyes. I can look at you all day long, Lewis and liar. I'm just as good a liar as you.

Are. Exactly. It's really hard to look someone straight in the eyes and lie to them. Right. You kind of have to look away for a second.

Right. Some people may. It depends how good they.

Are. Wow. Do they train you how to be a great liar? Like, do you have to learn to be a great liar in Secret Service in order to understand when someone's doing it, to see the slightest.

Tells? No. I was never taught to be a great liar. I was taught how to read behavior. And even still, I continue to go to training to assess Human. It's all behavior. What are people showing you? What are the indicators? But the most important thing is when it comes to reading people, and I know you and I talked about this in depth last time. It's not about one thing somebody does. And I see it a lot where, oh, a liar is anyone who always does this or anyone who always does that. It is seeing the person's behavior and then pulling out red flags. So, for example, if we go. And actually, one of the best ways to detect deception is through verbal words actually give people away a bit.

More. How many cues would you say that you're looking for? If there's like, verbal body language, the story, their behavior, Are there a set of cues that you're like, okay, I look for these five things, and if, nope, four of them are off.

Then it's because you may not do those.

Things. Or I might just be like a nervous person in.

General.

Yes. You know, like, why is this person nervous? Well, I'm always nervous or.

Something. Right. So, okay, when I first came in, you spent 10 minutes, 15 minutes chatting with me. Why do you do.

That? Well, because I like you. You know, I want to. I want to see how you're doing. I want to connect with.

You. But I do that with all your.

Guests. Yeah, I mean, I did a.

Little more with you, you know, but what's the reasoning? Why.

It'S. Well, I don't want to just jump right into an interview. I want to build connection. I want to see what you're up to, what's. What's really exciting in your life right now. Is there something off your life, you know, that we can talk about, about and go into and really just build a.

Connection? So when you connect with them, do you not also get their.

Energy? Yeah. Their.

Behavior. Their behavior, their energy, their.

Movement.

Absolutely. Sit and all that. Do you ever get somebody that's. Maybe you read them, your impression is, this person's a bit more shy. I don't want to have a boring.

Interview. Yeah, they're all off or they need.

This. I need to bring it. I need to make it more comfortable. Yes. So you're.

Always. I always say the pre show is the show. You know, the show needs to be powerful. But if you don't bring it in the pre show and build the connection there, it's like you're really interviewing someone in the pre show so that the show can inspire and impact the.

World.

Yes. And if I don't create that in the pre show or we're not creating that, it's going to be harder to create it when we get.

Started. And what you're trying to do is figure out that person's baseline when you first read them. What's their baseline? Oh, right now I've got somebody very timid. They're not going to bring it. This podcast is going to sell. I can't have that. I want to have people feeling inspired. So you assess people's baseline. Everyone's different. So when you assess a baseline is this is who this person is in this moment now, when you start asking them questions, and you're always very courteous to me, every time I. Come on, Evie, is there anything you don't want me to ask you? And every time I say, go ahead, lay it on me, I have no problem. I mean, but then if you ask me questions, then if I don't like it, you'll see a deviation. So, Evie, you know, the entire time we were speaking, she's been sitting this way, using her hands. She's expressive. Using illustrators. Then if you ask me a question that I don't like, you lean.

Back.

You. Yeah, well, I could just put my hands away. Nothing more than put my hands.

Away. And I can notice. Oh, there's a shift.

Here. Wait a minute. Right? You're going to say this whole time Evie's speaking with her hands. She's very illustrative. And now she put her hands away. So what you're looking at is, what did I just do? I asked a question or I said something or did something, and as a result of that, it caused a shift in behavior. That's a bit of a red flag. Now, what you do next is, why in your head, why did she do.

That? You bank it in your.

Mind. If you're a good interviewer, and it depends how deep you want to go, you'll ask me questions about it, about why you shifted. You won't say to me, evi, why did you shift? You'll continue to ask me questions about.

That. That topic that made you feel there was a.

Shift? There was a shift. Oh, there's something here. Oh, I want to know. Oh, what is she hiding? Oh, what is the story there that I want to know about so that can do that for other people? I could just be sitting here the whole time. You ask me a question. I could do something as simple as put my hand over my mouth right before I answer you again. Everybody doesn't do it, but you could say, why did she just put her hand over her mouth? But the thing is, what did I do? What did I say that caused her to do that? The goal is for you to be not afraid to ask questions. The majority of the population very fear based. We don't like confrontation. We don't want to push through or ask. We let things go. Instead of being curious, you're curious about people. You're fascinated by people. I am too. I listen to people. I love to hear their story. And when you talk to them, they will tell you what they want to tell you, and they'll leave some stuff out. But can't you tell sometimes the parts that they leave out of themselves that they just don't want to.

Share?

Right. There's like something missing there. The energy shifts. The behavior shifts. It's behavior. I think people say energy because they just don't know how to define.

It.

Right. So study a person's baseline, and you can do it within seconds, too. So when you're connecting with people, what? You also probably don't realize that what you're doing is intuitively. Louis, you're reading people, you're getting the.

Picture.

Absolutely. You're getting a sense of who they are. Right. You even said to me, actually today, you said, evie, you seem more relaxed on this one. Last time you came in, I thought you were gonna pile drive.

Me. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Right? Yeah. It's interesting. And I always know that, and I guess it depends on if you're meeting someone for the first time versus we've met each other before. So the energy or the behavior can be shifted, I guess. But I always try to. And I think I did this with you. When someone walks through the door, I try to open my arms. I think right away I was just like, hey, I open my arm. I try to open my arms and really just kind of be a joyful person, whether it's someone I know or someone I'm just meeting, because I want people to feel like this is a safe space and this is a joyful place, and I'm a safe human being. You know, I'm not gonna hurt anyone.

Here. So let me ask you a.

Question. And I also know I'm much bigger than a lot of.

People. Did anybody teach you that, or is that something you normally do on your.

Own? I've just done it for years. I can't think if someone taught me. I don't remember. But I've just always kind of been this. Because I think when I started doing it, probably in my teens or early 20s, I was like, oh, people are much more receptive to this. You know, there's Probably a reward for that behavior based on what I was doing. So I go, let me just always be this way, you know, so.

Actually there's a term for that. It's called an open posture, welcoming posture. So it's a wild. Because you do it intuitively, right? So this is when you want people to not feel intimidated. You want people to connect with you. What you want to do is exactly what you did. So supervisors, anybody out there, listen up if this is. You want to connect with people or people are intimidated by you. Open posture. So I'm open. My hands are out. My hands are open, too. Nothing's in my hands. So it's. And you said, I'm safe, I'm not hiding anything. I don't have anything. My hands aren't in my pockets. I don't have anything in my hands. I'm open, I'm safe. And so I'm welcoming.

You.

Yes. So that's actually something. That's one of the first things they teach you in the foundation when it came to negotiation and interviewing school. Have an open posture when you speak to people. This is the open posture, exactly what you do with everybody you meet. And it's smart that you do that because it's disarming. They feel relaxed, they feel welcome, they feel open, they connect with you. And you're going to have a better interview.

Right. Intuitively, I mean, or just like unconsciously, the person's going to feel safe, whether they're even aware that I'm doing that or not. Right. I even try to be conscious. I move my hands a lot on the table, and, you know, I cover my chin or I'm thinking. But I always try to go back to having my hands open here, even just in a relaxed position. I don't know if you notice that, or I'll bring it to the side here so you can see them or kind of have them here in like a open clasp position as much as possible. Because I want people to feel, hey, I'm here, you know, I'm open. But then I'll grab my pan or I'll do something. But it's always tries to go back to a relaxed.

Position. So the hands, again, is the same thing. You keep your hands. And I don't want to say it's not always a sign of deception, but one of the things they did teach you is just when you're talking to people and you see the hands disappear. So you see somebody's hands, they sit on their hands or their hands are under the table. Never great signs it doesn't mean. Again, it's just a red flag. So if I have my hands up here, you ask me a question that I don't like, and my hands go down here. You should take note. Why did Evie do that? What did I just do that caused her to do that? But the fact that you keep your hands out and this is important when you're communicating with people. Again, connection, connection, connection. Why does it matter? And not that you want to be nice to people. It's not about being nice. It is about negotiating. It's about communicating. It's about connecting. When you do all these things, you will be more successful. People will want to work with you. They will want to date you. They will want to be around you. They will want. They will want to be in your vicinity. This makes your life so much better because everyone sits and they memorize strategies and tactics and techniques. You are dealing with people. At the end of the day, you master people. You will master everything. And it's so important. But we. We throw it away. We throw it away. And something as small as what you're doing, welcoming people. Open hands. The hands out, being open. Connecting. I'm showing you my hands. I'm here, Evie. I'm looking at you. Slam dunks all the way.

Touchdowns. Excuse.

Me. You play football. Touchdowns all the.

Way. Exactly. Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the.

Truth? Oh, my God. You just reminded me of this.

Case. You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything said was pretty true or almost.

100%. This was. I've never. I had. It was such a simple case, and it was. It was not even for a lot of money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs and he was taking. Stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card, he come from behind, take money. Very.

Simple. On the gun or.

Something. No, no, no, no. Just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine, so when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well. And then you could go. They. There's all these different scams, so. But when you go to the atm, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him. His face. He's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy. All right. You know, I've got it. All I gotta do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat. So I start speaking to him. I don't take out my evidence, right? Because I'm saving that. Because you knew this is a slam dunk. This is a slam dunk. I was like. And he didn't even steal a lot. $500. It was something small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And, sir, you took the money. No, no, miss, I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this. So I'm doing this with him for, like, 15 minutes. And this was a mistake on my.

Part. We have evidence. We have proof. We have, you know, video footage.

Of you giving him everything. No, never me. Never me. And I pull out. I think I'm being slick, and I pull out my photo of him. Boom. Right on the table. Who's that, sir? Right? And I'm sitting there, I'm all smug. I'm like, I got this guy. And he takes it, and he looks at it. He's like, looks like me. Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me. I was like, what? That's you? He's like, it looks like me. That's not me. Same hat. New York Knicks.

Hat. The guy wearing the hat right.

Now. Yeah. No. And I. It was a creative interview. And I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to.

Those.

Why? Less.

Guilt. Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone.

Physically.

Yes. They might have hurt them.

Financially. Yes. I'm at home. I'm sitting behind my computer. I'm in my fuzzy slippers. Or even if I'm doing it at the atm, I'm not stealing from you. I'm stealing from the bank. Yeah, but it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's that level of guilt when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution.

Yeah. Who.

Cares? Zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get, but, yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget. That's why I started.

Laughing. Was it him or was it not.

Him? It was him. We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get. It's always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence, you've got.

This. The person said it, but he never agreed to.

It. No.

No. He said it looks like me, but it's not.

Me. No, same New York snake hat. Yeah, I don't know. I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just. Nothing. And you could see his face looks like me. I got nothing from.

Him.

Really?

Yeah. So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact.

Him. Who was him? I mean, we had evidence, we had prints, we had all that stuff. But, yeah, no, he, you know, to the end. Nope, not.

Me. Could you tell.

Like. I couldn't.

Tell. You couldn't tell he was lying or.

Not? I couldn't tell. No. He was so believable. But I knew going in that he was my.

Guy.

Right. So that's why I was like, I know it's him, but it was just, like, stoic. And there's a moment, I'm like, is it not.

Him?

Right? They're so good. You're like, my scene is right. Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him, it's him, it's him. No, no, this is you. So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will. Some people. And I think this is. Look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes, and he was used to.

It. He knew how to get out of.

It. So certain people who are. Who lie a lot usually become better at it. Or they. Or they don't feel bad. It becomes. Become better at masking it. You obviously have a great conscience, and so it bothered you. And so all your tells were shown. You couldn't.

Conceal. Yeah. Your heart is bumping. Like, your chest is tight, your throat is clenching. You're.

Like. It bothered.

You.

Yeah. Which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you. We tend to see in people who are. Who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't.

Care. What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that? In the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of, maybe, or people believed you. And more than just, oh, I'm having a good day.

Lie. You know what I did, I could probably confess to this. This was so long ago. I went and got. It was back in the day. I got a money order.

From.

Western Union, the post.

Office. Post.

Office. And, you know, I was, like, young. I was a kid. I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like, 3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see 499, and I'm like, oh, 100 bucks. 100 bucks. And I took it. And to this day, I remember it. It bothered.

Me.

Really? Yeah, it bothered.

Me. Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys.

Gave? No, I took the money. Yeah, I took the.

Money. It bothered you that you lied about.

It? Statute of limitations, I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was. I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story. We.

Went. Did that come up in the Secret service interview? Did you ever steal something like money when you were.

Younger? You know what? I did lie about and did come up in my Secret service interview? I'll tell you that I. When I applied for the job, when I went to. When I went to college, my parents and I love my family, they weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. Like, they didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it. And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork to go to college. Yeah, they didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way. And so I lied. When I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was. There is like, well, you think you can't get aid? And so I went back to the school later on and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out, I. Yep, I lied and I. I spilled the beans in my.

Polygraph. I was like, you told them this is what.

Happened? I said, I lied to get financial aid. I could, because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree with my decision to go to this school to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life. I was just like. I was like, I'm going to.

College.

Yeah. And I lied. But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up, and I said, look, I did. I lied about this. I did this. You know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school, so I was okay. I got the.

Job. Wow. How many things did you tell. Did you confess to before you took the.

Polygraph? That was my biggest.

Thing.

Yeah. That was my thing. Drugs. Like, I didn't. I never had. Despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it of that around me. And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably would have been the opposite. If nobody did it. I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well. I paid back all my.

Loans. I'm sure it's.

Fine. Yeah, I paid back all my.

Loans. When you're. When you're in an interrogation or an interview or you're on a first date or you're at a job interview in your career or any type of first interview with any situation, what's the best way to build command authority and.

Credibility? Yeah. So you can do very simple things, like when you greet someone, Hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you. Would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you. Why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right. So I'm in this subtle way I'm telling you to go to the bathroom, and you're gonna go because of the way I said, why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go. Before we get started. Right, you just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink? Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to.

Drink. So now we'll be here for a little bit. Have something to.

Drink. So now I'm planting these little seeds, telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where. Where to sit. Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two.

Tactics. Where would you like to.

Sit? Yeah, where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later. You're going to try to push me on something.

Later. I gave you something now. The law of reciprocity means you give me something.

Later. Exactly. But also autonomy, though, it's not. It's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control. I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it. We can do it here. We can talk about this, or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? That's. Nobody likes to feel like they don't have control. So a way that you can deal with a resistant person is by giving them some level of.

Control. When you're going on a first date, how is. And you've been maybe in an abusive relationship in the past where you were a doormat, you were walked on, you had no control, no authority. The person that you were in a relationship with walked over your boundaries, took advantage of all that, and you've had time to heal, and now you're getting back out.

There.

Yeah. How can that person Create a great dating experience in that first date to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat.

Mentality. All right, so there's two things. I think the first thing is don't take out on that person what was done to you by somebody.

Else. That's the.

Worst. Because we've all been victims of things to some degree, right? And let's say, even if it was, it was abusive, it was horrible, it was that. It is also not fair to take that out on an innocent person. Like to take your trauma out to someone else. And sometimes we can feel trauma elsewhere and then project it onto someone else who didn't cause that to us. So I would say that's the most important, most important thing because it will allow you to connect. The other thing I will say is the majority of people tend to trust. When we have relationships with people, we tend to go and trust people. So when someone says something to you, you tend to believe.

It. Believe.

It. The average person, we just engineered that way, and I don't even know why that is, but we tend to, to. To sway towards trusting the person. In law enforcement, actually, it's the opposite. Law enforcement officials are notorious for thinking people are deceitful. So the average person believes people are honest. Law enforcement believes people are deceitful because they deal with more people who lie. But that causes a problem elsewhere because when you do have innocent people who are telling the truth, they're telling you the truth, and then you get false confessions, you get problems. You're looking at the wrong person because you're confirmation bias. That's a whole other animal over there. But knowing that we tend to give people, we tend to believe people automatically just hold a little bit of that.

Back. Don't believe.

Less. Just be more reserved in how much you.

Trust. Discerning about.

It. Yes. Just don't put it all out on the table. Oh, my God, this guy's great. Or gal's great. I just connected with them. And then what we do, we go nose in. And so you don't want to give unconditional trust. So unconditional trust is like, I give you now trust across the board. I trust you in everything. When you start dating someone or any new relationship, even in business, always conditional trust. I'm not going to trust you all the way. I'm going to trust you part of the way. So now here's the thing. We love to trust unconditionally, which is probably why we tend to just want to give people trust. It's less work. I could just turn my brain off. I can trust you.

Lewis. Great.

Story. Yeah, Lewis asked me anything you want because you asked me in the beginning, is there anything off the table? I'm like, no, Lewis, go ahead and ask. But you give that person unconditional trust and I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're going to manipulate me. I don't have to be on my guard. It's easy. It's easier. That relationship, conditional trust means I have to be a bit more careful. So it's like me going to buy a car. I know I'm dealing with a car salesman. I know I should be careful. It's just understood that they try to get you to buy certain things. They use certain language. So when I go in, I go in with conditional trust. And so I'm better protected. That's why there. You're less likely to get hurt in those situations where you understand, I can't fully give everything to this person. I can't fully trust them. Conditionally I can. So I. Excuse me. Unconditionally. So I have to just be careful. The thing is, that's work. It's a lot of work. We get tired, we access a specific part of the brain when we do that, a more complex part of the brain. So that's why unconditional trust, you don't want to give it right away. And that is why when we get betrayed by people close to us, that's why it hurts. It's usually by people who betrayed us on who we give unconditional trust to. Yeah, that's my advice for.

Dating. That's when it stings. Would you use the same approach if, let's say you're, you know, I haven't been on a first date in forever, but let's say you're on a date, your first date with someone, would you say, hey, why don't you have some water? Why don't you use the restroom first? Where would you like to sit? Would you do the same approach.

There? I would not because I don't want to establish authority there. That's not. If you're looking to have a relationship. I would not do that. That's not. That's. That's creepy. That's a controlling, unheard.

Of. What should you establish?

Trust? I think rapport and trust. And I think probably the best thing you can do is just not talk about yourself and listen to that other person. Just ask about.

Them. What would be.

The. You did that to me when I walked in. Yeah, it was like, Evie, boom, boom, boom.

Boom. I was like, what would be the three question, three most fascinating questions someone could ask on a first date that would not be interrogational, but be connecting.

Questions. Ted, tell me. Tell me about yourself. Explain to me what your dreams are. Describe to me what your, you know, what your hopes are. Don't. Don't create a question. Because you may ask a question that you think is fascinating, and they're gonna look at you like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You don't. Right, because you don't know what they think. Like, what they. What their. What their aspirations are, what.

They'Re. We're on a hypothetical first date. What would you say to me.

Using the Tell me about your podcast. I'd love to hear all about.

It.

Okay. Explain to me how you got into that. Describe to me like, what it's like when you interview all these different people. I'm gonna shut up and I'm gonna let you go, Louis, because now I get to hear you. I get to see what you. You're like. Your values, your beliefs, what excites you, what doesn't excite you. Excite you. You're gonna tell me about why you started it. You're going to tell me about your background, what got you into it, any growing pains or heartaches, or how this happened. You're going to tell me about your favorite guests. You're not favorite guests. You're going to tell me about the amazing things you learned or maybe some of the things that you were like, I can't believe I brought this guest on. And so now you just opened up this world and I had to do no work, and I can just.

Listen. These are more indirect questions, is that.

Right? Or open ended.

Questions. So don't ask a direct question. Who is your favorite guest? Don't say.

That. I would tell me about. Tell me about your guests. And then I would allow you to naturally tell me on your own because you feel like you're in control, and it's more likely that you will tell me on your own. But if I ask you directly, and if you want to protect the integrity of the people you interview because you don't want to say, this is my favorite guest to make it public, because then that's. It's going to hurt the people that come on the show. Right? Your clientele, so to speak, your guests. So I would. You're not going to answer it? You're going to be reluctant. Oh, Evie, I love.

Everybody. It's like my kids, you know, you can't say you have a favorite kid. It's all your.

Kids. You're going to say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love them all. I love protecting all of them. But if somebody says, tell me about the people you protected, or, tell me about the presidents you protected, now I feel comfortable. I'm in control. I'm talking. The more we talk, the more we leak. I'm less guarded. It's less direct. I don't even know you're trying to find that. And I may naturally, on my own, get.

There. What are some of the key strategies to mastering them in business and relationships without people feeling like they're manipulating or creating a toxic environment with those.

Individuals? So here's the thing, right? So you're saying manipulation trick. Am I tricking people? Right. I hear this a lot. I'm going to give you an example or analogy. If I were. If you work out every day, Right. Let's say you work out every day, you're getting top, you're muscular, you're strong, you're all that. Right. Could you use that to help people, to help save people, keep people.

Safe?

Absolutely. Because you also use that to harm.

People.

Right. So this is the same thing. So all the stuff that we talk about, could somebody use it to harm someone? Yes. It's like anything. You could take something that's meant to be positive and twist it. But I'll tell you this. When you come from a genuine place, people feel it. They feel it. When you are doing it with the goal to manipulate people, people feel that.

Too. What do you think of the subtle cues that people could tell if someone's trying to be more manipulative or more from a place of power, control, competition? Rather than a genuineness, it's where it's like subtle. It's not as.

Clear. I think one is if somebody's very over the top when I have somebody say, evie, you can trust me, or this like we were talking entertainment business before, you and I. When I hear. When I hear certain things, when people try very hard to oversell, this.

Is a guarantee this is going to happen no matter what. This is easy. You know all these.

Things. Yeah. Those are always red flags. I'm always thinking, why is this person trying so hard to sell me? I feel that I'm being sold. Versus, look, I'm going to work with you. I'll do everything I can. You can connect with People. And there's. There's a genuine part that comes through. But again, but it's also. Does the behavior match what they say? So if somebody's saying, I'm going to do this. You're so important to me. You're my most important client. You're my this, you're my that. But then they don't call back. They don't answer their cell phone. Or when you do call, hey, I've got two minutes. I'm super busy. They don't deliver when they don't do those things, that tells you what. So that it's not in.

Harmony.

Right. I'll bring another.

Example. They're not in alignment of what they're saying and how their behaviors are.

Acting. Yes. One of the things with you. And this is completely genuine, when one of the things that I appreciate about you, where I saw that who you are and what you say is in harmony with what you do is. And I brought this up to you earlier when we were doing our. Hello. When I did my first interview with you at the top of the description box, the first line was about, subscribe to my show and all that. And the second line was, hey, guys, Evie's book, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, he put that up top. You, your behavior, what you said and what you showed me as a. What you were verbally telling me matched up with what you showing.

Me.

Right? That's what you want to look at. Because you'd be like, evie, you're great. You're this, you're that. And then if it's, like, not there, if it's, like, all the way at the bottom, or it's all about Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis. And my guess doesn't matter, right? Then it doesn't matter. You can tell me I matter all day long, but people miss that. Don't just listen to. I don't want to say the garbage people say, just don't look at what they.

Do. It's like trusting to an extent. Okay, you're selling me. You're gonna do something. I trust you. And let's see if the behaviors.

Continue to match the words, I'll even better you this. You don't want to give unconditional trust. There's certain levels of trust. You give conditional.

Trust. What's the.

Difference? Conditional trust is, I give you a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here. And I test you. Not I test you, but I watch and I wait. But what we do is, oh, my God, I love Louis. He's Great. Which you are. Right. I'm gonna give him all my trust, I'm gonna tell him everything. And then I get confused as to why do I feel betrayed later? Why do I this? Because you just gave it away like it's nothing. It's like you just took all the money out of your wallet and you just did this. When you go to the store, what do you do? You ask, how much is that? Let me give you exactly what it costs. So you should be that way with your trust. You shouldn't be just giving it out to people. It's.

Conditional. Let me ask you a question.

About.

Being vulnerable with people. Being honest, open, and vulnerable with people. Whether in your first few interactions with them or you've known them for a while, should we be thinking about ourselves and saying, I trust myself enough where I can be vulnerable and open with people, no matter how they receive it? Or should we hold back who we are or some things about us to protect ourselves or to feel if they're trustworthy enough to have that.

Information? Yes, to the.

Latter. Really.

Interesting. I hear this. Vulnerable. Vulnerable. I mean, nobody one. Nobody wants to see it all day long, right? Yeah, Everybody's got their own problems and stuff they're dealing with. I will tell you this, though. When people feel too comfortable with you, they will challenge you.

More. In what.

Ways? They will test you more. They will push back more. The more comfortable people feel with you. Think of it. The people that know you the best in life, they push you back. They push back the most. They'll call you out the most. And sometimes not in a healthy way, in an unpleasant way. But if you're. There's something powerful with keeping some things about you to you. You don't have to be an open book. I know this goes against a lot of be vulnerable, be vulnerable. I'm not telling you to be a jerk, and I'm not telling you to conceal everything about you. But what I'm telling you is you need to have a filter. Nobody needs to know. People don't need to know everything about.

You.

Yeah. Keep that stuff to.

Yourself. When you were doing your interviews or interrogations, would you ever. Or did you ever become too vulnerable as a, I guess, strategy to try to get the other person to open up and share their vulnerabilities and kind of reveal that they did the thing they.

Did? I think what I just did is I empathize the most because in.

Truth, can I. I can see how you feel about this. I had an experience, you know, I had.

A. Well, if It's a criminal investigation. Hopefully not. Oh, you killed her. Oh, well, I could see.

Why. Why I felt this in my life or whatever it may.

Be. No, because that would be disingenuous. So I'll give you an example. There's a difference between pretending I understand and understanding empathy is. I've. I've been there with you. So when you. When I came in, I said, louis, I'm really sorry about your dad.

Right.

Yes. So I've also lost my.

Dad.

Yeah. So if I. If I said to you, louis, I'm sorry about your dad. I understand how that feels. Can I say that to you? Do I understand if. Because my. I lost my.

Dad.

Right. You would say, she lost her father, too. So she understands now if I never lost my.

Father. You can't say.

That. And I said that to you, you kind of be like, you don't really.

Know.

Yeah. You still have your.

Dad.

Yeah. So when you empathize with someone in a scenario where, let's say you had just lost your dad and I didn't, I would try to empathize. That must be very difficult. I'm sorry to hear that.

Now. But not relating it to.

Yourself. Not relating to myself. So the only way you can relate it to yourself and it be genuine is if you experience the exact same thing the other person did. So in this scenario, yes. You lost your dad. I lost my dad. So then you would feel genuine. So it would be the same thing when you speak to people. So it's how you say it. So if you. If you're not experienced the exact same thing, the best thing to do is say, I'm sorry to hear that. That must be so difficult. I can't imagine. I'm here for you if you need.

Anything.

You. You would do something along those lines instead of saying, I know how you feel, and trying to then. And this is what you don't want to do, because when you first told me. Actually, I didn't say to you, I lost my dad because I would take away from what I was sharing with you. I made it now about me. Oh, you lost your dad. Let me tell you about my dad. And my dad died, too. He died of cancer and all this stuff. And I would go into that story. It takes away. So it's your story, your narrative, and I'm going to let you just talk to me about it, and then if later mine comes up.

Fine. Sure.

Sure. So you don't want to make it about you. This is that me, me, me, me syndrome. When people are Speaking to you. Allow them to own their story. Don't feel that you have to be, oh yeah, I do the same thing. Oh yeah, this. They don't one, they don't typically care unless you've been through the exact same thing and you feel that by bringing that up, that person needs that.

Fine. Right. But don't, you don't even need to.

Yeah. If you don't need to, don't bring it in. Don't, don't bring in the noise. Let that person's story be their story. Because what you're doing is you're.

Bringing in your own stuff and give them that moment.

Yeah. Let them have that.

Moment. I want to go back to something you, you mentioned briefly. That thought would be interesting for people. When you're asking someone, when you want to get information out of someone, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, interrogating a criminal, whatever it might be, is it more employee? An employee? Yes. Is it more effective to ask direct question, did you do this or you did this? Or is it better to ask an open ended question and see what happens.

Next? So direct questions are not good. And this is why most people do this. They go in for the kill, so to speak. And they get garbage. You get nothing. What do people say be they shut you down? Nobody. And especially if it's a sensitive topic, they're not gonna want to tell you. It's like, did you do it? Yeah, hey, I did. Let me tell you. Sit down. Yeah, you want to let people adjust. It's almost like you put their feet in the water, in the pool, your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water. Some people dive.

In. Sometimes I jump in, it's too cold to just go.

In. But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate and then by the time you get in, you're, you're the same temperature. When you speak to people, then that's the way to do it. And you don't have to get the information in that moment. You want to work on people over time. So you want to get admissions, which is pieces of information if we make it about a crime per se. Right. Rather than going, well, did you do this? Did you do this to this person? Did you rape this person? Kill this.

Person? Steal this.

Thing? Steal this thing. And I would never say steal. Sounds.

Ugly. Take.

This. Did you take this? Rape Sounds ugly too. I would never say rape or kill. Kill. I would say, did you hurt this person? Did you, you know, lose yourself? I would use different terms. Sounds nicer. Even if Somebody lies. Hey, man, you're lying to me. Oh, Louis is like, what? No, Louis, you're not. There's something you're missing. There's something you didn't tell me. I feel there's a part of the story I'm missing here. I want you to be comfortable enough to tell.

Me. So you would say.

That. Yeah. Sounds different. So that's one. Think about the words coming out of your mouth. What do I sound like? And then more importantly, what do they hear when I speak? Not to. What. Not what do I think I'm saying? Because everyone's like, oh, I just said this. What did I say? It doesn't matter what you think you said. What matters is what they hear when you speak, based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their. Their drama, their trauma, all their stuff, because they bring that in when they communicate. So you have to keep that in.

Mind. Are you also thinking about. Are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a connection or a conversation with them and get as much information on them before, where they're from, who they.

Are, you know, depends what you.

Want.

Yeah. What is your goal? Like, what are you looking to get? And obviously, sometimes time's a factor if you're hiring somebody. I think when you do. Here's some tips. When you're doing your job interviews or you're bringing people on, or you're working with people, you want to sit them down. You don't want to sit, like the way we are here, with a table between you and the person. You want an open space. So you've got like two. So put them on the sofas, sit down. That's openness. This is a barrier. It's just. It causes a break between us. There's also formality with the table. And I feel like I'm being in more professional.

Than. As opposed to.

Relaxed. And the thing is this. If you want to know who you're hiring, let's say, or who you're dealing with, or who you're bringing into your space. You want openness, and you want them to speak to you in an open way freely, so you can get all the information. Tell me about yourself. How did you grow up? You know, where are you from? No kidding. What's about this? What about that? Now you get them, and then you flow into the other questions. But if people feel like they're being interviewed, that they're going to bring that. Bring that. So you want to get people to feel comfortable, and you want to have that openness. Also, when you have a table, it cuts off the lower.

Body. You can't see their.

Triggers. There's tells. There's.

Tells. They're crossing their legs. They're.

Fidgety. They're fidgety, maybe. You asked me a question about Evie. Did you ever get fired from a job? And then I crossed my legs as soon as you asked me that question. You're not going to say anything. You're going to take a mental note. Oh, Evie just crossed her legs right. When I asked her that question. Why? I need to. I need to start with. I need to. I need to pay attention to.

That.

Yes. Right. So that you want to just take notice. The whole goal is to be curious. And so if we can give it a turn, maybe you need to Lewis House.

Yourself. There you go.

Yeah. When people come in, you are super curious about them. You care about everybody who comes in, who's coming in. I want to know everything I can about them that they're willing to share. I want them to feel comfortable, to open up. I get a great interview. My viewers love it. Boom. This is like this with everything else. If you can bring that level of passion and curiosity with people, everyone's going to be open.

Books. Yes, that's.

It. Everyone's going to be an open book for.

You. Now, I'm curious about this. With. I think you said you're married for 12 years.

Right? Yes, I think.

So. Married or in a.

Relationship? I'm going to be upset right now. I'm trying to do the.

Math. 12 years and he's in the Secret Service as well, Correct? Or he's in.

The. He was. He was a former special agent. I can't give too much away. But he does work.

With. Works with the.

Government. The federal.

Government. There you.

Go. In a special agent capacity.

Yes. So you're both in a similar field.

Right? Exact same field, yes. Training, all of.

That. How does that work in intimacy and relationships when you both have these skills, Is it incredible or are you guys constantly assessing and be like, huh, I'm noticing this strategy he's using. I'm noticing this. Are you able to flow into.

It? So as people. Sometimes we get like, I'm going to get emotional or he'll get emotional. And when I see certain things happen, I will be. I will. I will identify what's happening. Okay. He needs to vent. He needs to say this. Let me Let him. He's not going to hear anything.

I say until he gets it.

Out. He gets it out. So you just have to have. And I think this goes across the board for all relationships. If you can just, here's my.

Word, shut up and let someone.

Communicate. Just let them go. Even if you don't like what they're saying, just let them say it. Let them get it off their chest, then speak. That's super powerful. It's going to help you. And then they're also able to listen to you. So sometimes I will pull in a strategy, or sometimes we'll argue and he'll do a technique on me and I'll realize it after the fact, oh, I know what he did. But then I'll realize I understand why he did it. The whole goal of this stuff, it is not to manipulate or trick people. The goal of this stuff is to help progress a conversation. You don't want to get stuck when you feel stuck with people. This is why you want progress. We won't want progress in our lives, at work, in our conversations, in our relationship. So when you are stuck, you have to ask yourself, what am I doing that is causing me to be stuck? I want progress. So even in a conversation or dialogue, and everything you do is to help keep the dialogue going. Furtherance in furtherance, how am I progressing the dialogue? Think of it this way. And there's something called the behavior wheel. And it's actually these amazing researchers, the Allisons were the ones who created this. And they teach it to a lot. The top negotiators, they actually teach Allison wheel. The Allisons. Allisons are their husband and wife who do research. And there's something called the behavior.

Wheel. That behavior wheel.

Okay. And this is where they teach you again to identify behavior. And when you see a behavior, how do you respond to that.

Behavior? How does the wheel look.

Like? So it's a.

Circle. What's on the.

Wheel? It's got all the different behaviors. But I'll give you an example of one. Let's do this. What we're talking about, you're having a conversation with someone, and they are. Let's put them at the top of the wheel. They're high power. They're controlling the conversation. They're setting the agenda. Now, when they are there, the other person has to go low power.

To allow them, because you can't both be in that position at the same.

Time. Look at this interview. What do you and I do? Do we flip when you're high power, when you're controlling the agenda, I go down here. When I'm speaking and I'm high power, I go back up here. You go down here. You understand? For me to have progress in this conversation, we have to. Evie's high power, I go low power, and that creates progress. Now, if we're both high power, we're competing, we're arguing, nobody hears anything. And so relationships are like that. Even. Even marriages, because you brought up marriages. So if somebody is in this high power, you go down here, and then when you can, you switch and you go up here. But if both people up here, it's not going to work. And if both people are down here, it doesn't work. This is kind of a. Where do you want to go eat? I don't.

Know. Wherever you want to go eat. I'll go.

Anywhere. What do you want to go eat? You guys are going to starve because somebody. Somebody has to go high power. That's the behavior wheel. Now, that would be an example of the good behavior wheel. And to the Allisons, I'm sorry, I'm doing my best. I don't want to butcher your work because they do some great, great stuff. If you go now, some people will visit the bad wheel. The same thing. Bad wheel. Bad wheel is when you have somebody who's very dominant, who's very domineering. They're trying to be high power, but it's not in a good.

Way. It's.

Aggressive. It's very aggressive. It shuts people down. Now, here, you have to be careful. And we see this in relationships. Not just partner relationships, friendships, supervisors. When you have somebody like that and you recognize their high power, but in an unhealthy, not in a good way, and you go low power, you.

Should be taken advantage of.

Probably. Right? Yes. You become now weak, a doorman, submissive. You become the doormat. And so what happens is, over a period of time, you have helped groom that person to stay here, and you go here. And that's why sometimes we'll see in relationships, there's that one person who's the aggressor, who's up here, and the other person who's super avoidant, submissive, and that's not.

Good. How does that person get out of that position without upsetting and making the other person more.

Aggressive? So what you would do is you don't want to. You want to go back to the initial example I gave you, which is the good.

One. You're both.

Yeah. So one thing is, when I have bad behavior, I don't want to mirror that bad behavior because it escalates. So what you always want to do is present the behavior. You want the other person to have. You don't mirror them just because.

They'Re being in that don't go there behavioral state. You don't match.

Them. You don't match it because it's going to. The whole thing's going to take a nosedive. So you want to say, I see. Now this is where it gets important. I see this behavior. I know what I'm seeing. It's not personal. I'm not going to get emotional and upset and how dare you and all that, Even though I can think it and feel it. But if I identify the behavior, it's not as. It's not as piercing. I know what I'm seeing. I understand this behavior. I know what's happening here. Now, I'm not going to be weak, submissive. What I'm going to do is I'm going to go back to this good wheel. I'm going to go low, I'm going to go down here. But I'm going to listen and I'm going to say, okay, well, tell me why you feel that way. So I can still maintain eye contact with you. I can still sit here. I can still show you that I'm assertive. So this is where I'm listening. But I'm not becoming submissive or avoidant or small or carrying away or letting you take over. Yeah, I'm taking this low power part of the wheel, but I'm.

Here. So how does someone command respect then if they're in the lower part of the wheel? You can still do.

That? Well, it depends. So here's the thing. I feel like we're doing a whole psychology.

Course.

Yeah. One thing is if you have a relationship and for a long period of time you've had that dynamic, that power dynamic that we just talked, one person's the dominant, the this or that, and the other person's down here. Once that's been set so.

Hard.

Right. That is very hard. Almost impossible to get rid of. I've actually consulted with people who have come to me and said, I have a boss who's this way. And one of the first things I ask is how long you've been there, how long this. And when I hear like three, four, five years, my boss isn't changing. I'm like, you're gonna have to find another.

Job. The only way that boss would change is if they got in trouble. They got in trouble, everyone leaves or he starts losing a lot of money or something where it's a big breakdown. Right. You'd have to have a big breakdown and do a Lot of work on yourself to say, oh, I'm the problem, not everyone else around.

Me. Right. But how many people actually get to that solution that they're the.

Problem? Very.

Few. Most people be like, look, look at the people out there. Look at Gen Z or Gen.

This or Gen that, lazy or this or that.

Whatever. They're going to deflect. So to answer your question, if you've groomed someone and you've been groomed to be here and you shift, unless that person is on board and they realize what they're doing and it'll work. Only then if they don't, it's going to be like, who are you now? What are you doing now? What do you think you.

Are? It's probably even harder in an intimate relationship then you've been with someone for five, 10 years and you've had this dynamic. It's got to be so challenging to break that mold.

Right? It is. It is hard. If you break it, is that person going to. The key is if you can break it without them knowing you're breaking it. So when.

You. Little.

Subtleties. Yes. So you have to ungroom them. You almost have to groom them the opposite.

Way. So much.

Work. It seems like, well, depends if you want to stay, if you want to go. Right. Truthful. In a certain scenario like that, it is very hard because you're trying to be change long term behavior. That's been set. That's my role. That's your role. It's set and now you're trying to change the roles in that.

Person. So.

Hard. Yes. You're. I don't want to say, I don't want everybody to go get divorced or break up. But be aware what you would have to do is slowly groom that person to do the opposite. Unless you can convince them, hey, you're part of this.

Problem. It might be tough. Yeah. And that's where like acceptance comes in. At some point you have to accept who you're with and realize this is who you're with. You'd accept it, you try to change it or you leave. Right. It's like what choices do you.

Have? Some people do. Some people will accept it. They'll get in that role. They're comfortable in that role. They know that role. They don't want to get out of that role and they stay there. And it's also, it's not so bad. I worked with someone actually. This isn't, this is. I've heard this a couple of times sometimes and I'm not a relationship expert, but I've had people speak to me about this dynamic, and they will. They will tell me, well, you know what? He doesn't hit me. It's not that.

Bad. Just screams once a week.

But. And so I'll hear that. And I'll say to the person, your baseline or your threshold of whether it's healthy or not is, well, he doesn't hit.

Me. Why do people justify those things and why they'll stay in a toxic work environment or intimate relationship when they make these justifications? Well, at least it's not this. And this and.

This. I'm invested. I've invested. How many years you've been with your.

Girlfriend? About a.

Year. Okay. Here. Okay. You've been with her a year. So if there's issues happening in your mind and heart, you're like, I put a year into this. I've invested in this. I don't. I don't. I don't want this to go away. And that's what happens. I think that's one. We invest so much time and energy. I have to start over. I have to. This. We do that. And then maybe if we're. Especially if we're in that submissive role, we've already. Our confidence in.

Our. Is.

Lower. Is lower. We feel weaker. We've had somebody push us there, and it's harder now to get out of it. And we. We. It's amazing what a human being can normalize in their life. Especially when I would work cases of abuse where. Especially children. When abuse. You would be amazed as to how a human being can adapt to the most egregious of environments. And that becomes the norm where somebody on the outside would be like, I can't believe this. We have this amazing ability to adapt to a.

Flaunt. It's kind of like the analogy of the frog in hot water. Have you heard this? Where it's like a frog will stay in hot water and the more and more it. It gets harder. They'll just keep staying there because they're used to it, as opposed to just jumping out of a.

Pot.

Right. It's like. And then they'll just die in boiling water eventually. Like, eventually you'll.

Die. But that's how everything is. It's. It's incremental. People will do a little bit to you. They test it. Oh.

Lou. Still here. So I can get away with more and.

Push. Oh, Lewis did it.

Okay.

Oh. And it's. It's a group. That's why it's called a grooming process. You are groomed and then that's why you have those moments where you stop and you think, how did I get here? This isn't me. It's not your fault. But this is why looking at behavior is so important. Don't listen to the garbage people give you and look at what they show.

You. Have you seen Tinder.

Swindler? No. It's next on my.

List. It's like the grooming process. When you watch it from an outsider, you think, how could this happen? But like you said, the more you're groomed and you tied into someone romantically and psychologically and emotionally, you stay. Even when the behavior gets worse and worse. Right. It's this you'll see when you see it, but it's.

Crazy. You know what will also help people and look at who's around you. I don't know if you do this and I'm making an assumption that you do, please tell me. I would assume or presume that you are very thoughtful about who you keep around.

You. 100%. 100%. In work environment and personal life. 100%. And I'm even more. It's interesting because before the pandemic, something I realized is I would connect with almost everyone and I would. And I would give time to a lot of people. I'd give meetings or I'd want to like, oh, let's meet this person and meet this person. And now it's like, oh, I really have like a handful of core friends that I want to see consistently and then other friends they'll see when I have time. But it's like those core friends, core team members, it's like really getting clear on that environment of the people that I want to have in my life. And it's been a powerful, eye opening.

Experience. Why do you do.

That? Well, the clearer I am on my mission and my time, I'm like, I don't want to spread my time all over the place. It's keeping me from my mission and the things that bring me the most joy. And it's also not deepening those relationships that I have that are really meaningful. So it's. I want to spend more time with quality people that enrich my life where we are in collaboration with each other in terms of just our experiences and our conversations and deepening those relationships. So that's where I'm at right.

Now. So when you do that, you have these people that you select to have around you that makes you more solid, more centered. Right. It helps you in business relationships and everything. And so when you have somebody who's maybe not so good. Come in. This is why having a good core of people around you, these people will notice.

That.

Really? Yes. They will help you. So when you have one, they become your norm. Solid, grounded people become your norm. If you're surrounded by that, then that's what you know, that's what you. You're used to. So if you have somebody, and I don't like this word, I just can't think of another one. Toxic come along. Right? Because we label everyone. Labels everybody toxic. Oh, they're.

Toxic.

Yes. So if somebody toxic for you comes along, you will notice that quicker because those people that are around you, they'll notice it. But they're all. They've also given you that stability. Now, if you. You are surrounded by off people, people who take advantage of you, there's a lot of noise talking to everybody, getting everybody's chatter. You're not going to pick that up. So one of the ways to offset this thing that we're talking about is to also really select who's around you because they make you steady or not steady. I don't care how strong. I have a strong identity as a person. You have a strong identity. But if you and I surround.

Ourselves with buffoons, start to act like a.

Buffoon. Yeah, yeah, we're going to be off, right. We're not going to be as confident or as centered or strong when things are off. We're going to have that weakness. People can either bring out strength or.

Weakness. That's why I think it's so crucial. You know, I've done. I feel like I've learned so many lessons over the years in multiple relationships that I've been in. Right. I feel like you've got to learn the hard way sometimes when you keep making these mistakes in the past. And all these previous relationships that I've been in have given me awareness of, like, my flaws, my insecurities, why I chose certain people, all these different things. And I never put blame on anyone else. It's always about me, right. And why I chose. And I Remember interviewing Erwin McManus, who's a pastor here at a church called Mosaic. And I was asking him, he's been married for, I think, four decades, right. And he's had this beautiful relationship. I go, what's this secret to having a healthy, long relationship with someone the same person? Right. And he said, I hate to say this, but 80% of it, the happiness and the joy, is who you choose, is the person you choose. That's 80% of the success Right. If you choose the wrong fit, you're going to be stressed out and dealing with conflict constantly. And having a great partner, especially someone like Martha, who's so intuitive. She also kind of keeps me. I don't want to say protected, but can just be like, that was interesting conversation with that person. Like, make sure you watch out for their energy or whatever. Just the subtleties of having someone strong in your corner, a friend or a partner who can read people as well. I think it's really important who has got a solid identity like.

Yourself. I think you're right because. And I know. And I'm not a relationship person. I can only speak for my own. I picked a solid partner and he looks out for me. He'll see things. I remember even when I began doing the news and I wasn't paying attention as much as I should have to my body posture, because it's TV and took commercial break, he'd be like, sit up, you're.

Slouching. You also said something that earlier you said. Oh, yeah, he watched our conversation and he thinks you're like a good guy or something like that or your.

Behavior. Good.

Person. Yes. Yeah, good person. So are you guys doing this for each other? Where he'll watch your interviews that you're on and be like, something off about that interviewer. Be careful.

There. Think of it. This one. This is the person you have as your companion. So what the pastor said was right. Because first, this is the person you have the most exposure to. They know you the most intimately, and you want a solid person if you can be on equal playing field. That's powerful. When one is like this or it's like this, it's.

Hard. So when you're trying to fix someone or you're trying to coach someone in a relationship, what usually happens. I know you're not the relationship.

Coach here, but when it. If identify the behavior, I always go back to behavior. Because when I tell you you did this, me and you this, it means something is wrong with you and you don't understand. And then you feel attacked. But when you can identify the behavior and say you did this specific thing or said the specific thing, now you're giving somebody something visual to.

See. It's not them as a human being. It's the thing that.

Happened. It's the thing you did here because you did this thing or said this thing, it caused this. This is why it's upsetting to me now. Now that person in that moment will either understand, be able to communicate and be illuminated by it and Have a discussion, or they'll shut down, they'll be aggressive, they'll do these other things. And then based on their behavior, you now can make intelligent choices and say, is this a person I can progress with? Or is this a person I should step away from because everybody is flawed? Like, I'm.

Flawed. What would your husband say is your biggest flaw or the thing that you've needed feedback on the most or support in overcoming, improving on, or whatever.

It might be to be truthful? I think being.

In. And when someone says to be truthful, does that mean they're about to.

Lie? No. No, I'm being truthful. But you're right, it's a qualifier.

Honestly. Honestly, I'll tell you the.

Truth. Yes. So you could have been cued by that and just been like, let me see how she.

Answers.

Yeah. And this is why you have to be careful when it comes to.

Deception.

Right. But I will tell you, I think one of the things I've had to work on is because I came from a law enforcement background, I started off NYPD and then US Secret Service. And you're around. You're around people the worst of. You're around people when they are at their worst. Especially when you're dealing with criminal behavior. You are around some of the worst behaviors and the people when they're at their worst. No one's ever happy to see the police, by the way, fire department, they love. All the firemen are here, the police department. So having said that, you're interacting with people who despise you, hate you, and who are consistently lying to you. So one of the traits that actually they see in law enforcement is cynicism, and they become quite cynical of.

Everything because you're seeing the worst.

Right. But you're dealing with it on a daily basis all day long. Now, that is a trait that I had to be careful of and that I noticed. So where people, in general, most people, the average population, the majority of the population, are more likely to be trusting and to believe in. People so. General in nature naturally want to believe and are more trusting. The exception is law enforcement. Because you are typically around people, you are typically around people, You become more cynical. So I had to work on that. Where I am more inclined to see the flaw or to see the problem than to be as trusting. I'm the opposite. I'm very, you know, I'm doing the assessment. What is this problem? What's the problem? What do they.

Want? What do they really want?

Yeah. Where's the deception? Everyone's got an that's where I had to work on.

It. I didn't even realize until you told me, but you're pregnant and you're due to have a.

Baby. Did you see it or did you think it was just a lot of.

Donuts? I didn't even see it. I wasn't even like, you know, maybe I should have been more aware and check your whole body and assessed everything. But I was just looking. I look in the eyes. Usually when I'm connected with someone. I'm.

Not. You're being polite. She could be pregnant. She could have.

Had. I didn't know it until you, like, pointed it out. But I'm curious. You're four or five months.

Pregnant. I'm.

Five. Has anything shifted in you in terms of your intuition or your ability to sense behaviors differently while being pregnant, or do you feel like it's the same as.

Before? You know, I. And this is probably going to come into your language. I feel people's energy.

More. Yes. And I was not their.

Behaviors. I still analyze.

Behavior. Yeah. You feel.

Energy. Like I just feel people more and I'm much more aware. So I don't know. And I don't know if this is. This is kind of going to different space. And I tried to think about it. I don't know if it's because there's another soul inside of me. If you think of it to some extent and that makes you more sensitive. But I am more maybe sensitive, not in a negative way towards what's around me. And more I feel a bit more. So I'm using energy a bit more that I'm.

Aware. What do you feel.

More? I think what I have noticed and I'm curious to see what other pregnant women have noticed. But what I noticed is, I guess think of it like a radio frequency. If my frequency was good before, it's like really crystal clear now. As far as somebody's energy coming through, maybe I just get their behavior a bit more. And I was always pretty on point, but I can really feel people on a stronger level more acutely and more maybe intuitively. I don't know why I have no knowledge in this space. This is more an internal thing that.

I've. So the Secret Service should be hiring pregnant women more to have that, like, superpower.

Right?

Maybe. Wow. You should come back and consult for a couple months.

Maybe. Maybe. So it brings that awareness. I also think you become. I don't know. I mean, I work very much so I. Even though I'm connected and in tune, I've also Not, it was very important for me for it not to shift everything else in my life. I've always been very task oriented. I like the work I do and this is just like a whole other journey. And God help me. Right. I don't know.

Exciting. I'm very excited for.

You. Yeah, that kid's doing push ups. People ground their kids. My kids will be like, get down, give me.

50. Yeah.

Exactly. I told you not to eat that cookie. Get to work, get to.

Work. What would you say were the three greatest lessons you learned from working with the Secret Service and these different presidents that you worked with, that you have taken with you and you apply for the rest of your.

Life? I've learned to. One thing is resilience. When you're around people who are in such a world stage and they receive such hate, some venom, and you can see them just persist and get shredded and then get up and give a press conference when other people, you know, completely become obliterated because somebody said something to them that, that I learned that, that yes, part, part of it was training because they teach you like, hey, I don't want to be like, toughen up, but toughen up. No one wants to hear.

You.

Right. But it gives you that resiliency and that awareness. But then also seeing people, heads of state, like, you can't fall apart. You're running a country, that's one thing. The second thing I was taught was to be of service to other people. And it seems to me that I don't see a lot of it out there. Everyone, and I don't know if it's just here in the US I could be wrong, but we're very, very me, me, me. What's in it for me? I want this. I, I, I. And it kind of brings me back to that train track scenario where we don't do for other people, we don't serve. And when I mean serve, just serve for the greater good. It was always interesting when people would say to me, you would really take a bullet for that person. Because the idea is when you're a service agent, a president, and whoever it was, and not just president, but anybody else you were tasked to protect and they would think like there was something really wrong with that. And I would always feel like I can't think of a better way or better reason to give my life or to die than saving the life of another human being. It taught me to serve and to give of myself. I think that's just powerful. And I think sometimes when we grow up and especially when we're younger, we just think about ourselves. And when I say to give of ourselves, I don't mean to just give to our small inner circle. I mean to humanity. That, I think was the biggest.

Thing. That's number.

Two. That's number two. And the third one was shut up. I learned in training to shut up. Not everything's about you. Listen, observe, you know, and just something. You learn so much when you.

Shut your mouth, I think. Did you ever feel insecure or intimidated or a lack of self confidence being in the position you were.

In? No. And I don't know if it was maybe my dad, like, even though my parents, like, I had certain issues, but I don't know, like, I never thought about that. I never went in thinking I shouldn't be here. I never went in, oh, I'm a woman. I went in, I'm like, oh man, I'm the only woman. Good for me. I really had a different mindset. I was proud that, oh my God, there's only, like, there's no other women. I'm like, good for me. If I went to a meeting, yes, I was proud of that fact. So I never looked at it as a negative. Why I'm the only woman. I was just like, I was just like, good job. So that's how I took it. And I, I was proud of that. And so that kept me going. I didn't think about my gender. I, I just did my job. And if, and look, will people treat you differently? Will that stuff happen? Yes, it will. Whether it's gender, race, that stuff happens. I don't care what anyone says, it happens. But I cannot alter myself and I cannot let you, who I know you're wrong anyway impact me and not. And not do my job well, because now psychologically you're in my head. I remember I went to. I usually don't share these stories, but I went to the Air Force Academy in Colorado. President Obama was going to go speak and I was the agent in charge of the outside perimeter of the stadium. And then I was there with several other agents. And we're meeting the head person that he was a colonel. Lieutenant colonel. Colonel in the Air Force. I don't remember. So it's me. All male agents. There's about several of.

Us. You were in.

Charge? I was in charge of the outer perimeter, Yes. I was one of the two people in charge. There was. The other agent was in charge of the inner perimeter. Then everybody else worked for us. Not worked for us. They were supporting.

Us.

Yes. And so the colonel Comes and he comes in. And so let's say, you know, here's. Here's everybody. Here are all the agents. I'm in the middle. And the colonel comes and he's like, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. This legit happened. I'm right.

Here. And it's like, no, he did.

Not. Nice to meet.

You. He skipped.

You. Nice. He skipped.

Me. And you were in charge, and he.

Was. You know, it shouldn't have even mattered. Right. And so it took everything in me to not be.

Like. To not blow up over.

Your. He.

Went. He skipped the guy next to you.

You. And then he assumed I was either a.

Secretary. Oh.

Wow. Or staff or something. Because he's like, hey, let me talk to the other. Oh, wow. I remember that. And I was just like, this Just Guy do this. I'm like, this guy just did this. You know, I'm having an internal dialogue with me. I said nothing. I said nothing. I was like, doesn't matter. I was like, he's gonna find out who's in charge in a couple hours. And he did. Hi, I'm the agent in charge of your outer perimeter. Who's my counterpart and who do I speak.

To? So you didn't take it.

Personally? I didn't look dumb. He looked dumb. I think. Why would I take it personally if somebody is ignorant enough to do that? And why would I want that person's attention or respect? I. In my mind, I was just like, you can keep all of.

That.

Right. I'm gonna go get. Do my.

Job. I'll do my.

Job. Yeah, that's exactly. So I. You can't. At least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like, I have a job to do. I have a mission to do, and if I get people. If I allow somebody to get in my head, people will.

Die.

Yeah. I'm not doing.

That. Right. Were you ever nervous in interviews or.

Interrogations? In the beginning, I was worried about. I was worried about not being respected. I was worried about. Because I didn't want to be an interrogator. I did not want to be.

One. Not being respected by the perpetrator. Perpetrator.

Not. Yeah. You're interviewing. Oh, the.

Team. Not your team. Secret Service.

Team? No, because at that point, when I became an interrogator, I went to specialized training. They were scared of me because then I started doing the polygraphs for new recruits. And so they would tell me all their personal bad stuff. I had all the goods. And then Six months later, they see me in the hallway, and I'm like, hey, how you doing? And they're just like, oh, my God, she knows all my dirty stuff. So, no, after that, people were kind of like, hey, good to you. Almost like, repel.

People. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, you never speak about that stuff when people expose themselves like that to you. You don't do.

That. Right. So you got nervous a couple times. In the.

Beginning. In the beginning, I didn't want to be an interviewer or an interrogator because I thought nobody would respect me. I was like, these guys are going to see me and they're going.

To be like, the.

Perpetrators? Yes, the perpetrators. Because you're dealing with sometimes really hardened people. And they see you coming in, they're like, this.

Girl?

Yeah. And I was like, I really had in my head the image of something else. And what you see on television, I didn't know. And afterward, I realized that the idea that I didn't look intimidating and that they were not expecting me. They're like, oh, this is a piece of cake. And they sit back like, what do you want to talk about? Let's talk about anything you want. And then, sure enough, admission after admission after admission to the point, like, hey, do you mind just writing all that down for me? Here? Right here. Thank you. Have a.

Confession. You probably did it. I mean, you're probably easier. You're less intimidating to look at, maybe in terms of, like, this big man that you see on tv, like, in your.

Face. That stuff doesn't work, by the way. None of that works. It looks great for TV in real life, male or female. When you impose yourself on someone like that to that extent, they shut down. They get nervous, they're intimidated. They may tell you anything just to get you to leave them alone. Those are not good tactics. I'm not saying that they're not used by a lot of interviewers and law enforcement. I think they are because there was moments where I'd do an interview with someone from another department. I'd sit there and I'm like.

This is not the way to do.

It. It was rough sometimes, but you can't. You can't tell somebody, hey, don't do this. I'm in your house. But there were moments where sometimes it was harder. So I usually would do them with either an experienced interrogator from my own agency because we knew how to work together. It's only like 30 of us. So you would, you know, I would say, I want this person for this. If it was like a child pedophile case. We had one guy who I knew was great. I'm like, I want that guy. If it was terrorism, I'd say, I want this guy because he's really good. And I say guy because they're mostly. Mostly guys. Not all, but even the female interrogators. We had some good.

Ones. Yeah. And so what was the time where you felt like, oh, I'm in trouble. I said the wrong thing. I messed up, like, it's about to go down the wrong way. Was there ever a time like that, or were you always pretty much in.

Control? I never felt like that. Because it's a conversation. I let it flow. It wasn't very rigid. If I have just an agenda and I have to go from here to here to here to here, that's where adaptability comes in. I didn't go in saying, here's my plan, here's my agenda, and I have to follow this because I have to allow the person to go where they want to go. So I asked them, what did you do last night? Tell me about your night. And now they're telling me, telling me about, you know, how every night they go to karate and. Oh, let me tell you, I started doing karate. They're telling me this whole other story, and I'm thinking, I don't want to know about how you started karate. I want to know about last night. But I would allow them that ability to do that. Or sometimes you have somebody who's worried about it, who's maybe angry that they're there. And I would have to allow them to talk about what they wanted to get off their chest, why they were angry, why they were there, what they were scared of, so that they could get it off their chest and then talk to.

Them. Interesting. Were the people that were angry mostly innocent or.

No.

Mix?

Mixed. Yeah, it was a mix. It would go where sometimes, usually innocent people would be like, I'm done. I'm leaving. But then sometimes you'd have innocent people be like, no, if I keep talking and I tell the truth, they'll. They'll see it. So I can't say it was one or the other. But guilty people tend to like to stay in the.

Room.

Why? Because I gotta convince you. I gotta get you off my back, because I'm not. Because you're not gonna go away. So you can get up and leave the room, but the investigation is still.

Open. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm still looking at you. So their goal is to get.

You interesting, to convince.

You. Don't look at me anymore. Go look at this other guy. Let me. Let me throw some other people your way. And so that's the goal. So they would stay in the room. It's like the car salesman always think of the car salesman. Working hard, working hard, working hard. I don't want you to look at me anymore. I want you to look at someone else, because you're going to keep on coming back. If I could get you to look at this other person now, I'm good. So that's why they usually stay. They usually would not leave. Guilty people would.

Stay. And how would you influence people to trust you and believe you and like.

You? I would be genuine. I would tell them the truth. Look, this isn't my case. And often, usually it wasn't. It's not my case. I was like, if you didn't do anything, you didn't do anything. If you did. If you did do something, I get it. We'll work through it. And I was like, I'm here to help in any way I can and to help facilitate. And so, you know, if you did do something and you're forthcoming and you tell me, I will talk to the prosecutors, I will talk to the investigators, and I will tell them that you were cooperative. And I would do that. I would keep my word. Doesn't hurt me. Like, it wasn't. It's not personal. None of my cases were personal because sometimes people would ask me, when you. When you were done interviewing someone, did you follow that case afterward? No, I was done moving on. You don't. I never invested myself personally because it's. I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to be. And I really like this because they taught us this in the service. You are an objective seeker of the truth. And I walked into every interview room saying, I am an objective seeker of the truth. So I don't care that everybody here is telling me he did it. You know, I'm going to give this person a chance, and I'm going to. I'm going to look at the evidence, of course. And if I have evidence, like my guy in the hat who's like, oh, no, that's not me. I mean, it looks like me. What do you do with that? Where did you go? That was my heavy. I dropped it early, too. You know, you're not supposed to drop evidence so early. You're supposed to hold it. But that was my heavy after that, I had nowhere to go. No. Yes, it's you. No, it's not. But yes, it's You. No, it's not. There's nowhere to go. I lost that one. That one I.

Lost. You seem like an extremely confident person. From a scale from 1 to 10, 10, being very confident in general of your life, what are.

You? It fluctuates. In certain moments, I feel very confident and centered. In other moments, I'm like. It fluctuates. I think it depends on what it is, what you're going through, what you're dealing with. If it's family, like, those scales, like, when it's family, like, all these composure things all go out the window. Right. We're like a whole other thing. I think it depends on the situation. But there are moments where, sure, I may lack confidence, but sometimes, like, I would go in and think, maybe because I was in such a life or death type of job, where I would be like, no one's holding a gun to my head. I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna go home after this. I don't fucking.

Care.

Yeah. And that's helped me more than anything. And my ability to curse, usually internally cursing, has actually given. Gives me a lot of strength, really. There's actually science behind it that when you curse, whether outwardly or inwardly, it actually makes you. It empowers you, you know, so I'd rather be. I'd rather be like, you know, I've always. And I've always had that. Not that it's a good thing, but I always use. Try to use my inside voice. Instead of being like, what was me? This person's picking on me. These people are doing this to me. Instead of, like, inside me and be like.

Them. Right. You feel more.

Confidence shifts.

It.

Yeah. Instead of me feeling like I'm a victim and I'm being preyed upon, it's just like, who do you.

Know? Screw that.

Yeah. I think having that part of yourself and the ability to do that, not. Not to intentionally actually hurt someone, but having that part of you inside. You know, my colonel, right, when he did that, that's exactly what echoed inside my head. You know, I made sure I'm like, inside voice, inside voice, inside voice. But I was like, it doesn't matter. Instead of me being like, if I let that impact me, then the rest of my assignment, every time I see him, I'd feel smaller, I'd be affected. And it was just like, this guy. Who's this guy? And that allowed me to do my job. So I think for me, that's helped me quite a.

Bit. If someone listening or watching feels like they lack confidence in Most areas of their life. What would you say is the way to overcome self doubt and build confidence? Some things they could.

Do. Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with. Take risks, make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive. Indecisiveness is a big thing. And what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should do? And you're asking a person who has no ability to. You're asking someone with no expertise about something. It'd be like, love, mom. But it'd be like me asking my mom, hey, mom, do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say? What TV show? Oh, you're gonna be on tv. You know, like, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision. She doesn't have the experience. I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in. But indecisiveness is.

Key. And how does someone build.

Decisiveness? You gotta stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it. Fall on your face. The more you fail, the more. The more confident you become. You can't fear failure. I have failed, Louis. I don't even know. I feel it. I feel so much. And every. You know, and I look at it like, all right, and once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens, and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing like that. That builds resilience, indecisiveness. Knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop. Choose. Don't worry about it. Whether you're right or wrong, just do.

It. So we gotta take risks, make decisions, fail often. Choose anything else. On overcoming self doubt that you've.

Seen. The way you talk to yourself in your head. Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself. So, for example, I work out. And so there are moments or it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside. I don't want to go to Jiu Jitsu. I'm tired. I want to sit. I want to eat popcorn. I don't want to do anything. I want to watch Netflix. I will never say to myself, don't be lazy. Get up. I'm not lazy. There is nothing about me that is Lazy. Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say, if you move, get up, go. And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers, and I.

Don'T want to do this. I hate.

This. Whatever. But I will be putting them on and doing it and then go. But I will never call myself names. And that's something I had to learn over.

Time. Man. This is my entire childhood was calling myself names. You're never going to amount to anything. You're stupid. You suck. Why did you do that, idiot? You know, all these things, even.

Something as simple as, like, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself. I'm like, don't say that about yourself. You're not an idiot. I wouldn't want another human. I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but.

We don't know, should get mad at ourselves for calling us that.

Stuff.

Yeah. What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an.

Interrogator? As an interrogator, I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me and not say a.

Word. What does that mean, shred.

You? Like, you can have somebody be like, I hate you. You're this, you're that. You know, you don't react in the interview room. Especially with the job. I would sit and take it because it wasn't my ego personal.

Too. It's.

Not. It was less personal, but I've been able to. Not always successfully, but even in my personal life, maybe without, with my husband so much, he's probably like, yeah, that's bullshit. But he's an interrogator, too, so it's all right. But typically with friendships, relationships, I'm better at. Not. Like, I can, you know, I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not respond. Really, I'm not saying it hurt. It doesn't hurt. And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well, or you have a friend or even a distant family member, and, like, they send you a horrible email that, you know, soul crushing, and you just want to point out, like, just the, you know, the lies of the inadequacies and what they wrote. And I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond. I have my moments, too. But I really think to myself, is this person worth responding to? Sometimes it's hard because it's like, I hear what this person's saying, I see what they're doing, and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you or hurtful to you. Yeah, that's tough because we all go through.

That.

Yeah. Every. Each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate. And you're like, how's this happening? Why is this happening? And you want to give it back. Especially when you've trusted them unconditionally. You feel.

Betrayed. You believed everything they.

Say. You believe you. You. You access the primitive part of your brain, and you gave them all that trust. You didn't give them conditional, you know, trust. You gave it all up. And then that relationship goes south, and you're. You're just. You can be distraught. That's. That's.

Hard. How do we learn. How did you learn to respond in an empowering way or not respond at all when someone attacks.

You? That. To be fair, I learned that in the interrogation room, in the interview room when we.

Were. Were you always like that? So you weren't always like.

That?

No. He's like, screw.

You. I was bad. I was bad. I was pretty bad. Yeah. I took after my father in that part, you know, and look. And I give my dad kudos in that. Like, even, you know, I talked about the cursing thing, and I realized where I got it when I go home as a kid sometimes, and I'm like, dad, this person picked on me, and this. That. This is his advice. Did you say you. He never taught me to be a victim. Never. And I remember. So my dad passed, and I remember. This is hard. He was. It was. We were at home, and I couldn't handle his pain anymore. He had pancreatic cancer, and I was managing his treatment at home, and I. I couldn't manage it with the drugs. He had to go into hospice. And then the hospice people came, and we're sitting at this table. It was the round kitchen table, and. And she's like, we have to take him. You can't manage it anymore. He has to go to hospice. And I knew in that moment when he left, that was it. He was not coming home. And, like, the tears are coming down. I'm sitting there, and he's like. He's like, hey, he's dying. He's like, hey. And he says it to me in Greek, you know, he says to me in Greek, and I'll say it in English. He's like, how Are we going to win the war if you're like.

This? Oh.

Man. He's like, how are we going to win the fight if you're like this? Stop. And so I. I appreciate that, because he never taught me to feel like a victim. And so to. To the. To the point where he died. And that stayed with me. I'm like, he's dying. He's going to hospice. He knows he's never coming back. Wow. And he's just, hey, knock it.

Off. So he still wasn't a victim.

Then. He's like, hey, to me, he's like, stop. How are we gonna win the war if you act like this? How are you gonna win in life? I was just like, sorry.

Yeah. What was the greatest lesson he.

Taught you that, you know, he. You know, to. And he had a temper. He was worse. Like, he would actually vocalize the stuff. And I learned not to do that. He taught me not to be a victim. He taught me not to let. Even though people hurt us. He'd be. You know, he'd say to me, does. Does this person feed you? Do they clothe you? Do they. Do they pay. Do they pay your bills? And I'd say, no. He's like, then what are you upset about? And you. You have this.

Moment. You're like, yeah, why am I.

Upset? You're right. It kind of, like knocks out quite a few people. And that. That helped me. I mean, it could also be traumatizing. When you're young, you want a little bit of the head. Yeah, I didn't get any of that, but I appreciate that. And I think that that also intuitively gave me that. I'm not. I'm not your victim. And I don't even like that word. Yeah, I don't like that word. Because I think when we think like that, we intuitively fall into that role. And so sometimes being able to, like, say, hey, f you gives you power back to say, like, I'm not going to take this. I'm not going to do.

This. Yeah. So number one was, listen, you're a great.

Listener. Oh, my God, I forgot the.

Question. No, it's a great answer. I just want to make sure I get to. I want to learn about your other skills, too. Listen, that was a powerful.

Response. What was the.

Question? The three greatest skills you have as an.

Interrogator. Listen, I think being able to take it when people are cruel, and I think we touched on that.

Yeah. It's so hard. But you were going to say how you learned that in the people Would. How did you learn that? Would they just like constantly come at you in.

Training? You know, when I first learned that I was in the nypd, I started in the NYPD first as a recruit and they used to run us. It's called the FDR highway, the fdr. And we'd run in ranks of four. We run in these ugly cargo shorts and please change the uniform and these. You know, I am a little bit of a, you know, I was just like, wait, is this not a matching.

Outfit? It's a little.

Good. Yeah. I was like, if I want to arrest people, I want to at least look good, you.

Know?

Sure. If I'm going to get shot today, I want to look good as I'm going down, you know, but so we're running in the FDR 4 cross and ranks. And the FDR is a highway. So there's a service area where you ride and people are driving by doing like 40, 50, 60s to highway. And back then, kind of similar to where we are, they hated police. It was before 9, 11. They didn't like law enforcement and they flipped the bird. They'd spit at you while they're doing 50, 60 miles. And I remember we're running and I didn't understand. I got in quite young and somebody like spit our way and gave us the finger. And I'm like, hey. And I turn around and the instructor just like grabbed me. He's like, what are you doing? I was like, did you not see what that guy did? He's like, I was gonna give him a piece of my mind. And he's like, no, you don't do that here. He's like, you are not like them. He's like, you control that. He's like, if you can't control what people do, he's like, you're never gonna make it out there, nor should you be out there. Wow. And that was the first time I thought I was being.

Tough. Defending.

Yourself. Defending myself. And that's the first time I learned, like, you don't. Tough people don't need to do.

That. The real toughness is letting it.

Go. It take. It takes more self control and more self discipline to be able to not say something and say something. There's this great quote, I'm gonna butcher it. Aristotle said it, I believe. And it's like, it's. To get angry is an easy thing, but to be angry with the right person for the right reason and in the right way and for the right situation is not easy and not within everybody's power. You Know, and so for me, I work on that just because I naturally gravitate to that. But I think for other people who don't, I think they need a little bit more of that. That part of them that doesn't let them. I'm a victim. I'm this, I'm that. A little bit more of that fire. Like maybe a little bit of.

Crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. You gotta have that. There's good crazy and you gotta have.

That. So if you're. If you have a victim mentality a lot, maybe step it up and defend yourself a little.

More. Yeah. Or, you know, put yourself in uncomfortable places. And when people say things to you don't. You don't want, don't. You can't let it crush you. You gotta have a little bit of that. Who are.

You? Yeah. Some thick skin.

Yeah. But. But not even thick skin, but the ability to say, like, you're wrong. I know you're wrong. I don't even need to tell you you're.

Wrong.

Yeah. Because sometimes you ever have that, Louis, where you're dealing with somebody and you know they're wrong, but they lay out all the reasons why they think they're right and you want to point them out, and sometimes you do, but it doesn't.

Matter. The energy is not worth.

It. But it's not like you can get across to them. Yeah, They've already made up their mind. So even if you. You refute each thing they say, they're just going to come up with something.

Else. Exactly. So, yeah. The energy of reacting is not even worth it at that.

Point. No. Then you end up leaving frustrated. And I think the third thing would be, what I learned is when you try to say something to someone and when you're going to explain something to someone, you have to ask yourself, does this person sitting across from me have the ability to understand the perspective I'm about to share with.

Them? Right. They may.

Not. And if they don't just sit there and just be like, okay, okay. Oh, my God, look at that. Look at the time. I gotta go. And so I think not wasting your time banging down a door, that it's not even a door. It's like letting that.

Go. I'm curious if I would have had the secrets growing up on how to lie better where I didn't get caught, what would I need to have done better? Because I got caught a lot, lying to my dad and my mom all the time. What would I needed to do better? Or should I just not try to ever lie and just be Completely honest and not worry about.

It. I think some lying to some degree is.

Healthy.

Really? Well, if somebody's calling you and you don't want to answer the phone and they're very taxing person or emotionally, you know, those emotional vampires are just someone that's not unhealthy for you. Voicemail. Sorry, I was busy. I think in some situations, it's okay. But as far as, like, lying, it's interesting you say that because we would. To become a special agent, there was a polygraph that you would have to take. And these things would come up as far as, like, do you steal? Do you cheat? Do you lie? But often people were worried about telling the truth. And what they do is they wouldn't tell the truth. You know, yes, I stole. Yes, I did this. And they would hold it in. They fail their polygraph or fail that part of the interview. And. And had they told the truth, they probably would have been fine because it was more of an integrity.

Thing. It's more like, tell the truth and not pass the test, but at least you're telling the truth or you'll.

Pass the test if you tell the truth. Here's the thing. It's like, the thought process is if you're gonna lie about this, a polygraph, you know, then you're gonna lie about everything. And so it's a big part of the job is trust, because you get so much power, so much authority. You're around the President of the United States. You're really around secret environments, so to speak. And so they really need to know that you can just be dropped anywhere, and it's okay. So it's really about the integrity of.

It. How many polygraph tests did you take to study doing this process as an.

Agent? I didn't take a lot, but I had to take them and then pass them myself because you have to get in. So I would be polygraphed. Are you. You know about my background or, you know. And I can't get into the. The details I'm kind of filtering now in my head. But basically, you know, you trustworthy? Are you looking to cause harm? Have I convicted any felonies that have not shared? Drugs tended to be a big disqualifier for a lot of.

Folks. Drugs. Have you done drugs or have.

You been drug use or drug experimentation? So they would allow, hey, when.

You were 16, if you did it.

For a few months, they allow. They have criteria. I think today it's a lot more lenient. When I went in, it was extremely strict, but I think what they found is like, we can't, we can't find.

People. Yeah, everyone tried something.

Right? We can't find people. Everybody's failing the, you know, the exam. And, you know, and there's this understanding of that when people are young, they make mistakes. And it's, you know, should something that you did when you were 16, 17, 18, 19, and now you're 30 preclude you from getting a job somewhere else? So there has to be a little bit of that logic in there where, you know, when it, it was a bit so severe. But I think there is a lot more experimentation today. But as far as your first question about your parents, I think that they just knew you well and so.

They knew they could just feel it. I'm just like, no, I didn't do.

It. Well, they know you, so they know your tells, they know your demeanor, they know how you shift when you do lie. And so sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it. They're probably very intuitive to you. They probably also didn't want to believe your lies because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone, or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And sometimes we intuitively see it, we know it's there, but we ignore it. And so we'll listen to somebody's excuses or explanations. And because we're invested in that person and we want to believe in that person, we want to believe the lie. And so sometimes that's what happens when we get caught up in something and then you look back, you're like, I saw this, I saw that. And all those nickels will start dropping because. But when you're invested in someone, you want to believe in them. You want to believe when they tell you, oh, no, no, no, I was actually doing this because it's not to your benefit. It's to your benefit to believe. I know what they tell.

You. Do we all lie? All human beings? And is it okay to.

Lie? All people lie. The research varies. Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a.

Conversation. 10 times, like in one or it could be a 30 minute.

Conversation. Hi, how are you? I'm great. How are you? Meanwhile, I.

Just. That's a.

Lie. Had a fight with my significant other. So that would be a lie. Then also, lying by omission is a big thing. People think that, that I have to say the lie for it to be a lie. But I can tell you a story and leave something out that changes the context of the story. So now the story is not accurate. I mislead you. That is a lie. And actually, the number one way people lie is by omission, because most people don't like to lie. They're not comfortable with it. You know, it's not natural to us. It's work. It's a lot of. It's a lot of work. It's very hard because you remember.

What you said, too.

Right? You got to remember it. You have to stick to it, because you may have to repeat that lie again later in time. And it really is a credibility killer. It's just not worth doing. And so it's a lot of work to do cognitively, so it is actually easier to leave something out. I don't feel as bad. And then when you ask me, Louis, I say, oh, you know, I forgot to tell you that.

Part. And then you lose.

Credibility. If I lie like that, I may not lose as much. It's when people outright lie, and then. So you probably did some outright lies that I think, did you do.

This? Yes or no? No, I didn't.

Do. Or how about this? No, I didn't do it. That's like, one of the indicators when people say their body doesn't match what they say. So they'll say, no. Yes. And so you'll see, the body will do this. Like, the body's in conflict with what they're seeing. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's everybody. Everyone is so unique and so different. And I think what popular culture likes to do is say, everybody will do this. Everybody will do that. And that's just. It's false. And there's no easy way to read people. It's work. It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person, paying attention to their mannerisms. So, like, when I speak, I use illustrators when I speak. So if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night, I did this. I saw that. Now you ask me something. You know, Evie, is this your favorite podcast? Which it.

Is. I don't.

Know. Right. But I start, you know, I put my hands down, and I. I change my mannerisms. Now I'm stoic. I'm not moving. In fact, people who do lie tend to move less, actually, because I'm working. I'm working. This is work. So I'm not. I'm thinking. I'm focused. So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other.

Person. So using body language and being more expressive hides the.

Lie. If you are lying if you're usually not all like, I want to be, you know, because some people that don't use a lot of maneuvers, they're always stoic, and so that's just what they are all the time. But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands and now they. You ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with or they want to lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the.

Body. What would be three questions? If you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth, how would you start those three questions? What would they.

Be? TED T E D Tell me, explain, describe. And then I would fill in the rest. Tell me, tell me what you did last night rather than, who did you out with last night, or were you with Sam last night? So tell me what you did last night. Explain to me how important this relationship is to you. Describe to me what you want. In this business partnership, those questions allow people to tell a story. So if you really want to read someone out, read somebody. You want them to tell you a story. So the more I can get you to tell me a story. I hear you. I'm watching you. I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything. But then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you. And then when you do that, now I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Louis? You already told me the things you like, and so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way rather than trying to guess what you know what to say. So ideally, when you start a conversation, and this could be for anything, it's not just catching a lie. This is really just trying to start a conversation. TED T E D Tell me, explain, describe. You start big. You get people talking and telling you stuff, even though you're like, I want to know this specific thing, but if I ask this specific thing, this person's gonna shut down on me. So I can't go straight for that. So what you do is you narrow it. You get closer, you get. You go from vague to, you know, more, you know, accurate to more accurate. So then in the end, you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point. So, for example, if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed, right? And you had a suspect, you wouldn't say, did you kill her. You would never say, that, in fact, that would, you wouldn't get there till like maybe two hours into the conversation. That's like the. You, you, you get there, it's over time. Because it's, it's, it's a serious thing. It's an ugly word. You know, I might not even say, did you kill her? Did you hurt her? Did you harm her? Did something happen? And I would get you, so I would never ask it that way. You get the person to give you admissions. Like, for example, yes, I was there, I was at the house, or yes, I did this. You know, you want them to give you a little bit, and then eventually you get more admissions. More admissions. You start to paint a picture. And then you, you never actually have to ask them, did you kill? They eventually tell you, so you.

Were at the scene, you were there at the same time, you were holding the.

Knife. They tell you all that, right? But you walk them, you walk them through that process. And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why it's work. It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people. And I think that's why. And I think society makes it seem like, do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand in doesn't work. It's not true. And this is why people struggle, because they're looking for the easy way when it's really about human behavior. The person across from you, like, understanding them, being curious. Curiosity is wonderful. So let them tell you stuff, ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for, like, exactly what you want to know. And then the other thing, too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability, which a lot of people don't have. Like, if I have a con, I have a conversation with you, and I specifically want to know one thing, but you want to tell me a whole other story around it. People don't have the patience and say, like, no, no, no, no, no, we're talking about something else. Like stick, stick to the topic. And when you do that, you break a rapport. You hurt the conversation. So a part of it is being patient. Let them take you a little bit on a journey, and then slowly you can bring them back to where you want. But sometimes we come in so rigid. No, no, I have to talk about this. This is the topic. And you're not able to adapt. So adaptability is allowing a Person to take you where they want to go. Letting somebody sit in the driver's seat for a little.

Bit. So you're telling me when my girlfriend is arguing with me about one thing, but then doesn't want to address it and takes it around the playground of all these other conversations, I get to listen to all those things to get it back to where I want to go to, perhaps, as opposed to. Baby, let's just focus on the problem right.

Here. Well, it sounds actually like your girlfriend is actually more of an identity based person. What does that mean? Okay, so there's instructional. There's identity. So if I'm talking to you and I want to tell you, you know, you want to tell me basically, evie, if you stop talking to this person, your life will be easier, right? You know, cut this person out of your life, right? And I'm like, no, I want to tell you how I feel. No, this makes me feel this way. This makes me feel that way. But you don't know. And you're just kind of like, all you have to do is cut.

Them out of your.

Life. Cut this person out of your life. Or all you have to do is this one thing. Problem solved. You are instructional. Let's just get to the point. What do we got to do to fix it? One, two, three, Done. Identity is. I don't want to hear that. I want to take you on the journey with me to tell you how I feel. This person, or when we are in that space. This. This means this person just wants to tell you how they're feeling. They want to tell you about their identity. What's happening is about their identity. So they don't want. She doesn't want your solution. No, she doesn't want you to tell you what to do. She wants you to listen to her. And so just. It's not even about solving.

It.

Right? And so I think that's another place where we get stuck. We like, here, here's the solution. And it's like, no, no, I don't want that. And you're like, but you're telling me you have this problem if you just do this. You're instructional. Their.

Identity. What are.

You. I'm typically instructional. I'm very like, just tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go through the circle. But when I speak to other people and I realize that their identity, or in that moment, they want to tell me this whole story. And I'm just like, dude, all we got to talk about this one little thing. Problem solved. I Let them.

Go.

Wow. If you have the patience. It depends what the topic is, but she's identity based, so I think every time you talk with her, if you see that she's like, not wanting to get to the point and figure out the solution where she just wants to tell you about her feelings, how this makes her feel or how this hurts her, or if it's about her. Her identity, then that's what she's doing. It's not about the.

Solution. Whether you were in the Secret Service doing an interview or an interrogation or in the real world now, I guess that is the real. But after now, what are the social cues or psychological behaviors, body language responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth? What are those few things that you would see? We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen? Social cues.

Or. Interesting. Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the. The lie detector. Like, you just ask the question. Come on in, have a seat, Louis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Like, typically, the. The lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation, and as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the US Secret Service. We'll make you a.

Recruiter. Okay, give it to.

Me. And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to. I say to you, louis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at. Are there any shifts? Are there any changes? Do you change the direction? No, people are usually not that obvious, you know, there. But you can see. You can see something. You can feel it. It's also feeling people. I think that gets dismissed quite a bit, that it's not just see, hear, you know, it's like, it's also. You can feel another human being. Yeah, you can. And it's intuitive. And you should. We should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Is your, you know, let's say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions, and you're like, no, no, no. And then I Say, Louis, did you. Have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now, something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay. He said, no, no, no, for everything else. But here he said, absolutely.

Not.

Interesting. Why is it a bit more.

Emphatic? He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth? He doesn't want that to.

Be. But I will notice that it's different that you did something different. Even if you. Now, it could be a very subtle thing, or you might not give me anything. There are some people, and I've had those people where it's just like.

Poker face all the way.

Through. Some people, but they'll. I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case, and they're guarding their. The truth really hard, and you have to try to figure out what that is. Or some people come in and it's. I swear to God, God. God knows I would never do such a thing. Those are usually red flags. Unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. If so, they. If they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language, or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit, but if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for. Rather than. We have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like, everybody does this. Everybody does that. Now, are these things. I'm talking about indicators? They are, but you may do them and I may not. I may do something.

Else. What do you do when you.

Lie? What do I do when I.

Lie? We all lie at something.

Right? We do. I do. I.

Do. Small or.

Big? My husband's like, did you have a donut this morning?

No. What do you lie about? The most professional or personal. And what in each.

Category? Maybe, like, if I'm mad because I have a pretty. I have a pretty bad temper, so it's like, oh, no, I'm fine. You know, And I'll. Because sometimes I'll know. I'm like, you know, I have a temper, and sometimes I know I'm being irrational, and I don't want to open up a whole conversation, so I'll just be like, no, I'm okay. I'll leave it. Because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think what do I lie about? Maybe work, if it's a project I don't want to do. But usually that's what you have agents and managers for. Because they do it for.

You.

Sure. They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it. Like, usually for me, it's like. Because I'm like a. You know, I like donuts and I like things. Cookies. I like things. So my husband's like a health fanatic. So he'll be like, how'd you eat today? You know, he's like, oh, this was okay. I was pretty solid, you know. Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to.

Say. Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the.

Time? No, I don't. I've never. I've not come across that. But I think. Here's the thing. It's okay to lie because. Have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with a person and then felt afterward? You know, I don't. You feel a bit exposed, and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person afterward. You kind of have that remorse because we feel like it's a. It's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so I may. And it may not be a lie. So by omission. So in a meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking. Talking about something, I don't like it, or I don't like the direction it's going, I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, thank you. You know, let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to say, no way. I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that. That technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you. And let me think about that. But I know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a.

Lot of us have to protect your time, your space, energy.

Yeah. And that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly. No is mean. No is hurtful. So I can say, thank you so much. I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that. Find alternative ways to let people.

Down. Why is.

That? To preserve the.

Relationship. Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it.

Personally. It stings. Right. Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way, and it just. It depends. Like, do you care about the relationship? And if you do, your no. Your hard no can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm going to think of a different way to say no. That's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So, for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, louis, you're a liar, or, louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, louis, I know you're not being truthful with me, Louis, you're holding something back for me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We don't. We throw our words out, and we don't realize that they land on.

Someone.

Yeah. And so then we scratch our heads. Heads. Wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem when we don't have the ability to think about, how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you want to say no to this. You want to think of a great way to say no. So we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity. Going back to.

Identity. Yeah. I think I heard in another interview you did where you said, you know, it's our responsibility as leaders in the world to actually be a more adaptive and understand where the other person is coming from and not expect them to understand us. Where we're coming.

From.

Yes. And be, like, emotionally flexible with where they're.

At. Yes. So with interviewing and with most. Almost everything I try to do, so we have a conversation. I'm 50% of it. You're 50% of it. But what happens is I get. Most people get focused on me. What am I going to say to Lewis? How am I going to be with Lewis? How am I going to interact with Louis? Me, me, me. I. I get nervous. I'm insecure. How do I look? How do I sound? And what I've done is given zero thought to Louis. It's all been about me. And so when I live in this space, I become nervous, I become insecure. I have. I'M self conscious. But when I leave that aside, and I'm like, this is about Louis. I want to hear about Louis Lewis. Tell me about yourself. I want to know about you. I want to absorb everything about you. I put my energy into you, and then I listen to you. How does Louis speak? What's his demeanor? If every time he likes something I says he does, I do a.

Lot. That's interesting. That's.

Good. You know, so I'm like, oh, that's his. That's his posture. That's how he. He's showing you. He's connecting with you. But I have to see the world through Lewis's eyes, how he sees it, how he experiences it. So when you say to me, you're like, look, I lied. I did this when I was growing up, I did that. And if I was just like, who does that? Why would you do.

That? This interview is going south.

Next. We're done. But my ability to connect with you and allow you to be you and not judge you, that was big. With people who committed crimes. I. Somebody told me that they did a horrible thing, and usually with a violent crime or with the child, if I sat and I told that person, you're.

Wrong. Oh.

Disgusting. How could that I not. I'm not seeing from their perspective. They're not going to talk. I'm not going to get information. I'm not learning anything. That is work. And I think when we do, especially, like in business, or when you're nervous, if you're like, I'm nervous interviewing, I'm nervous speaking. Speaking. If you can take the attention you create off of yourself and put it all on that person. Now you're distracted by them. But we're nervous. We're uncomfortable when all we're thinking about is, me, me, me, I, I, I. How do I sound? How am I going to do this? How am I going to say that? And I'm.

Not. It sounds like. It sounds like one of our greatest fears is the opinions of what someone else thinks about us. How do we stop thinking about the judgment of other people, the opinions of other people about the way we look, act.

Think. I think once you have haters, haters are good because you get them. You're like, I've got haters. Okay? I have to keep going, and you keep going. So you'll see that, I guess you have to catch yourself. Somebody is criticizing something you're doing. Do you keep doing it, or do you change the course of your actions because they said something to you? If you change the course of your actions because this person said something to you, shared their opinion. Now you, you're being maneuvered by them and you are being impacted by them. But if you still are like, no, this is what I need to do. Despite the hate or the criticism or the venom that you receive, you still stay on that path. That's how you know. So I think, pay attention as an individual. Am I doing this because I believe this to be the right thing, or am I doing this because outside people are putting pressure on me to change my path and change who I am? Look, it's good to get other people's opinions, but you have to know whose opinion to listen to and when. So when someone gives me their opinion, solicited or unsolicited, I ask myself two things. Who is this person and why should I listen to them? And so if I can't come up with that, then I'm like, I shouldn't listen to this person. So I, you know, but it's, it's having a conversation with yourself and practice. These are, these are all habits. You don't change overnight. So if you've been a person who has your habits always been to let other people opinions affect you, you talk negatively about yourself, you're intimidated by the things around you. You're not a risk take, risk taker, you're indecisive. You can't change overnight. But what you can do, you can say, this month I'm not going to ask anybody for their opinion. I'm just going to spend like a month just making my own decisions. And you create and cultivate that habit and then you move on to the next thing and the next.

Thing. So that was not reacting. That was number two. Was there a third one that you shared.

There? I think I gave you like.

Five. Okay. Just regular shout. I don't want to miss something there. I'm curious about the thing that you're most proud of that most people don't know.

About. Proud. Is it bad to say that I don't have.

Anything?

Huh? I don't, I don't know how to answer that. I don't have, I don't have anything. Like, I guess I don't know. And I don't know if it's baby, I came from a place where it's about the team and it's more about humility. And you're not supposed to stand out. Even though now I'm on tv, right? Huge contradiction. I'm an author. I'm a book. Have a book. I don't Know, I mean, is.

There something you've done with your team too, or something in the past or something more.

Recent? What am I proud? Maybe? I don't know if I may be. Proud is like, not the right word for me because I'm. I'm happy maybe because I don't let other people affect me, especially when I know they're.

Wrong. That's.

Good. That I will do. I will. I'm able to recognize and have a conversation and say, is there truth to what they're saying? And if there is, what role did I play? Or is there no truth to what they're saying? And is what they're saying entirely about them, their world, their inadequacies? Because sometimes if you go back to asking people their opinion, most people will be like, don't do that. Don't quit your job. Don't this. And what they're doing is. They are imposing on you their fears, their beliefs and all that stuff. So how can I ask someone else to tell me how to. What job to take, how to live my.

Life?

Sure. Who to date, who to marry. When I'm. Hello, I'm gonna be the one stuck with them. They're gonna choose differently than I would like with my mom. This is terrible example. But like, she'd be like, isn't he cute? I'm like, oh, who are you looking at? You know, when she was trying to get me to get married, I'm like, oh, he's good looking. She's like, what's wrong with you? Look at it. So I could never ask her. Her to tell me who I. It's weird, but, like, because I had such a different belief system. My mom grew up poor in the village. She. My grandmother was illiterate. They were. They were dirt poor. Poverty in Greece. And I can't ask my mom certain things because she doesn't have the context to answer some of the questions that I have that are, I. I grew up in a different environment, a different place, a more complex world. And.

So.

Right. She can't. She can't connect with that. She couldn't connect with me going into the police department. I might. I should have just told her I was gonna go sell drugs. She would. That would have been at least more like, oh, okay, I can see that. She couldn't connect with me going to become a secret service agent. When I left that to go into tv, she couldn't connect with that. She's like, what are you doing? Why are you doing all these.

Things? You know, she didn't understand Your.

Perspective. Yeah, she couldn't understand, but she also grew up very fear based. Poor, hungry, you have something great. Don't mess this up. And then I'm like, but there's.

Something. How did you shift that mindset? If you grew up in an environment of a fear based, more protective, maybe fear based, mother. How did you shift from that and not have.

That? It made me angrier. I think it does one of two things. You either become more afraid or the opposite. Or the opposite. And I became the opposite, opposite. I became more infuriated by it and I fought it harder. And the more I was told no, no, the more I was like, no one's. I'm not gonna tell me no. Let the world tell me no. And then I'm okay with it. I'm gonna apply for this and let them laugh at me. Let whatever is going to happen, happen. I wanna, I want someone else to tell me, no. It can't come, it can't come from me first. It just can't because I, I won't be able to live with myself because I had done that before. I think we all have to some degree. And we're like, why didn't I listen to myself? And I think that hurts more. At least for me, it hurt.

More. From the police department to secret service to TV media, book.

World.

Yeah. What were the habits that you learned along the way from being around the presidents and in that space? Maybe the three or four habits for ultimate success, fulfillment and happiness that you've seen, that you've applied or maybe you'd like to do more of based on everything you've.

Witnessed. Do you know what? I'm actually going to answer the opposite because it just intuitively came to me. I actually, it was hard for me because I had never been in the business of me and I was always speaking up for. I was. I represented the people, I represented the government, I represented right and wrong. That was different. And then when I went into the business of me, a whole other ball game and TV entertainment, oh my goodness. I found myself using my interviewing, assessing human behavior skills more in like my meetings with.

Producers. Yeah. What do they really want? Are they telling me to.

Trust? Oh, totally. I'm like, oh. He scratched his head when I asked that question. I was like, sir, did you. So did you like me on that show? Oh, yeah, it was great. You were good. So I found I had a hard time shifting and I think it's because you go from. Because look, even though you're, you're taught to be decisive And a free thinker. You're also. There's a hierarchy and chain of command. The orders come from the top down. And now what I found myself doing is thinking. My agents and my managers were like my supervisors, and I kind of got stuck in that place. So I had to learn and be like, no, I need to speak up for myself, and I need to say, no, I don't want this. No, I don't agree with this, even though I always had it. But I don't know, Louis. I had a hard time, and I don't know you did you. I mean, you're in this industry. Was it hard for you when you went from playing football to being the business of.

You? Well, in the sports world, I was really good at learning how to set goals for myself, and I worked on me to become a better athlete every day. So it was always physical, mental visualizing, and I was practicing different habits to improve and to gain, you know, the success I wanted as an athlete. So. So I felt like I had an advantage going into the business world because I was very coachable. I was already like, let me find the best mentors and coaches because they have the answers. I don't know what I'm doing. Tell me what to do. I'm gonna go work really hard for six months, and I'll come back and show you what I did. And then give me some feedback and let me figure out. You want me to read this book? You want me to do this? Okay, I'll learn, learn, learn. Develop skills, follow routines, and see what works for me. So I would try and try and try a lot of things, and if it got me the results, great. Did it also bring me fulfillment? No. Okay, what do I need to do for that? But sports really helped me develop habits and a mindset because it was an environment of failure. Every moment you're dropping a ball, you're missing a shot, someone steals the ball from you, whatever, you're failing. So you have to learn constantly if you want to.

Improve. I think now that you said that, I think what habit I took then was my ability to not get my feelings.

Hurt. That's a good.

Habit. So in the service, like, they didn't sugarcoat anything. Like, hey, you know that last. That last advance you did? You know that part where the president got knocked down? Yeah. You know, we just appreciate if you just put better bike racks up and secure it a little better, it'd be like, why wasn't that secure? That's not gonna happen again. You're demoted. You've got a week of midnights or whatever, or, you know, give me 50 push ups if it was training. And so I like that. It was very direct, clear, which is why I think we're both instrumental. It's just like, tell me what I need. I don't need the whole story. I don't need the sugar coating. Tell me what I need to do to be better. And in fact, even with the one thing I do with any project I have, any. My agents, my executive producers, any project I'm on, my editor for my book or my agent, I don't need you to. You're not going to hurt my feelings.

Right? Is it good or not? Yeah, tell.

Me. Just tell me if it's good. If it sucks, say, evie, it sucks, but just tell me why so I can fix it. This sucks. This is why you did not do a good job at this. This is why I can't be better. If you're so worried about hurting my feelings, which I think in this industry, people don't give it to you. Like, I remember I started doing the news, and after every news thing, it's like, you were great. You were great. I was like, I can't be.

Great. Not every time. Yeah, exactly. Give it some.

Feedback. So I had to pull one of the producers aside and I said, please tell me what I can do better. I don't want you to tell me I'm great. I'm not going to get better if you don't tell me. Stop using your hands so much on camera or, you know, don't curse. I don't.

Know. Sure, sure, Whatever. Give me good.

Feedback. Yeah, give me feedback. So I definitely got that. I don't. Nothing hurts my feelings when it comes to that. Tell me I suck. Tell me why. So I can fix.

It. Yeah. Or maybe your husband said that it might hurt your.

Feelings. He does that. He does that. He's just like, let me sit you down. And he goes straight to it. He's like, really? Actually, when I began doing television, he would, you know, I had a great support system. He would text me during commercial break. Sit up. You're slouching. Fix your hair. Who did your makeup.

Today? Oh.

Man. He's like, I don't like it. That eyeliner is crazy. What are you wearing too many stripes? I mean, he would critique me so that I could be better. And I was never pissed. Never. I'm like, watch me, you know, tell me what I'm doing. Right? Oh, yeah, that outfit didn't work. Oh, who did your hair? Don't do that again. But that was because he wanted me to be better. I.

Was. Because you asked for it.

Too. I asked for it. I don't know if I always ask for it. Sometimes it's unsolicited, but I. But I knew what he was doing and why. Whereas I think a lot of folks get their feelings hurt. So I think with our backgrounds that there's no time for.

That. And I think some results. Let's.

Go. Yeah. And I think it's like. Yeah, I just. Tell me how to be great. I don't need you to. My feelings are fine. My feelings will hurt when I don't. When I fail at this and I don't get the job or they replace me with somebody else to host or whatever. Produce or whatever. Yes. People are very fear based, very unsure of themselves, very unsure of their decisions. Even when we're seeing this mass exodus of people leaving work, you're seeing people almost reevaluating themselves, trying to understand their lives. People are not as assertive or certain about a lot of.

Things. They're not definitive, they're not.

Clear. They're not. It's very fear based. Very fear based. I'm not sure I'm afraid even I even see it in the classroom. I'm an adjunct lecturer and professor and I teach criminal justice and criminology. So even in my classroom, I will see my students be afraid to raise their hand when I ask them.

Why? Because they don't want to be.

Silly or something or they don't want to be wrong. And we're also in this space where people are afraid to say the wrong thing and be wrong. So it's fear in so many ways. So it's not just the physical fear of the body. Right. The illnesses, the COVID all that stuff. But it's also this fear of what is the world going to think of me? How am I going to be labeled? And I will sit in class, I will ask a question. Nobody raises their hand because they don't. They don't want to be wrong. And then even when I can get them to speak, you can see them speak in very hushed tones, very soft. I can barely hear them. And I tell them, own your answer. Don't worry about being right, be wrong. It's a classroom.

Environment.

Yeah. And so I think it comes from a very fear based. We're just very afraid in.

General. Yeah. It's interesting. I've been doing a lot of research for a new book I've been writing about really three main things that hold Us back in our life. The three main fears that cause us to doubt ourselves. The fear of failure, the fear of success and the fear of judgment. Other people's opinions. And for most of my life, the fear of other people's opinions was the biggest thing that held me back. I was the one who wouldn't raise my hand. I wouldn't speak aloud because I was so afraid of being made fun of or picked on or whatever it might be. How can someone overcome that fear of a classmate laughing about them or saying, oh, that was a dumb question. Or just something maybe bigger than putting something out on social media and getting attacks or whatever it might be. How do people overcome that.

Insecurity? Well, I do think we've taken a step, step back actually in in person communication. A huge step. Everything now is people are more comfortable in texting and community, communicating through social. And then when it comes to in person, something's completely shifted. You can see people having a harder time communicating in person and everyone's kind of deviating towards typing, texting or email. It's become the.

Comfort. What's the most, the easiest way to communicate without. Yeah.

Exactly. Text is the easiest. Email. So here's the thing. In person is the best way to communicate. By the way, whenever I can speak to somebody in person or sit down and see them like this, this is where you get the best. This is where you get magic. Right? Then there's you. Okay. Then there's the phone. Phone is another great way. But when you go to email, you still have to write, but long form sentences, you have to write properly. Texting is just a couple of words and that is where everyone's kind of shifted to gone. It's also the. When I text or when I post on social, I'm not as it's keyboard.

Courage. You wouldn't say it to someone's.

Face. You never say it to somebody's.

Face. I feel like you should only say things online with what you would say to that person face. Otherwise, what are we.

Doing? Yes. If you can't look at somebody and say it, then you shouldn't write it. But it's the anonymity that I can write this stuff and then I can take out whatever's going on in my life out on somebody else. And I can feel brave in that way. But it's such a false way to be.

Brave. What does that do to the person communicating in that way? Having that false bravery by saying something strong or powerful or aggressive online, but the unwillingness to do that in person? What does that do to that.

Person? You have to check in with yourself and realize it's, am I being a coward if I can't say something to somebody's face? But I can do it over text? There's something that's missing. I think bravery is something that we don't speak about. Encourage is something we don't speak about. We don't do it in a very overt way, in a very physical way, in a very engaged way way. It's talked about as this like thing, oh, be brave, be motivated. Where is that? You have to manifest that with your body. You have to do it and it's doing it in the day to day decisions that you make. So going back to my class, it's interesting. We talk about criminal justice, right? Criminology, and sometimes we'll talk about even being. For example, I showed them a video of somebody who fell on these New York City train tracks in New York City. And there were all these people on the platform. One person gets down to go help the person. And so I asked them, would you do that? The majority of the class? No, no, hell no. No. Whoa. I'm not going to do that. And I hear that. And I think something is lost there amongst us when the answer, at least I feel through my belief system again is that the overwhelming answer should be like, I would want to help save another human being's life, I would want to help save somebody else. But we've come to this place where it's very much self preservation. Don't say anything wrong. Don't do the wrong thing. Right. And attack in a way that's safe and comfortable or not even attack, but you can disagree. And here's the other amazing thing. I think we don't understand how to disagree. So you can disagree or you can be competitive. It's something actually that you're taught in interviewing and.

Interrogations. Is this, are you trying to be competitive in interrogation or just so.

When I say competitive, I mean that I can disagree with you in a healthy way. So you call it competitive.

Dialogue. How does it look if I say, you know, the sky is green.

Today. Okay, tell me why you think the sky is.

Green. It's just, it just looks green. You know, I just see the color. You know, I don't know, maybe it's a reflection of something, but it's green, it's not.

Blue. Okay, so now what I would do in that moment is ask you why you think of it that way, why you see it this way, what is.

Your. You're not disagreeing with me and saying, oh, you know, you're an idiot. It's.

Blue.

Yes. You're not doing that. You're not getting, like, defensive or.

Aggressive because that is your value system. So I may, for example, I have a very strong belief system. Fitness and working out, it's. It's been part of me, but that's my belief system. It is not somebody else's if I try to impose it to somebody. So, for example, when you hear. Hear somebody say, I have to lose weight, I have to lose weight, their belief system is not really based upon working out in fitness. So I can turn around and be very direct. And that's being direct with someone is the way you lose people. So what you want to do is you want to always let people talk. Even if you don't like what they have to say, even if you don't agree with them, let them go. Let them explain.

Themselves. What happens when you let someone explain themselves even when you know they're 100%.

Wrong? You shut up. You shut your mouth. That's like the, that's like I always say that that's my. The gift to any great communicator is this. Yeah, let them go. Don't correct them. Don't tell them that they're wrong. Just let them be in their world. Now, here's the important thing. One, they're going to say everything they want to say. Okay? You're going to understand what their mindset is. And two things happen. One, you can speak now, because once somebody's done sharing everything, now they can hear you. Well, what you do is you're speaking. I cut you off. I insert myself. You get frustrated. Hey, you're not listening to me. I'm talking. She's dismissing me. And so when I speak, you come. You come back at me. I come back at you. Now we have conflict. And. And so, for example, when I used to do interviews, I would sit in rooms with people.

Who. When you mean an interview, you mean.

Interrogation? Yeah, I use, you know, it's.

Interesting. Call them interviews.

Though. Interviews and interrogations are the same thing. So what you see in tv, in Law and Order, that you did it, you this, you that, that's garbage. It doesn't work. Does not work. You're the best confessions I've ever gotten. They've been almost like psychology sessions or conversations where people progressively, over a bit of time, give you what we call.

Admissions. A little more. A little.

More. Yes. So it'll be like, yes, I was there at the house. Oh, yes, I was there at the time. Yes, I saw her or I saw him. Yes, I left upset. Yes this, yes that. And then incrementally they get to. You get to the confession. Yes, I did it, whatever that is. Right. Whereas we go straight. Most people go straight for the kill. Tell me. And it's because of this lack of patience, this thing that we know everything. And you know, maybe you are right in that moment. But it's not what you think. It's what the other person thinks. Understanding how they think, getting into their head and speaking to them. So now if we bring this back to what you asked me about being competitive means I can compete with you in ideas without it being ugly, without being confrontational or conflict. But what we've done is we've made conflict, a confrontation, this very negative thing. We don't want it. When it happens, people lose their minds. I have so many people reach out, especially when I do consulting. How do I. The question's always, how do I avoid confrontation? How do I avoid conflict? Why do you spend so much time avoiding it? Why do you spend so much time avoiding speaking what you. What you want to say, speaking your truth or sharing your ideas? And why can you not present them in a way where there is disagreement, There is competitiveness? I compete. You compete. No, the sky's green. Well, I see it this way. Oh, I see it blue. But why do you see it this way? And you have that.

Dialogue. But it's not an aggressive competitiveness. It's a. It's an. It's an open dialogue.

Dialogue. It's not me being a jerk to show you how smart I.

Am.

Yeah. And it's not me shutting you down. And it's not me having an attachment to the end result, me being right and me showing you how right I am. Confident people don't care how right they are. They don't. When you're confident, it's like, I know what I know. I'm good with it. This person sees things a different way. And also it also comes into where the dialogue, where sometimes we think, well, I'm saying this, and this is what I mean. You also have to think, what is this person hearing? So just because I think, well, I said this, it's like, that's great, but what are they hearing? How do they hear.

You? What's the skill then for people to. What happens when people avoid conflict as much as possible, as opposed to leaning into it and being comfortable with the discomfort of.

Conflict? That is very dangerous. And it is very bad to avoid it. To avoid it. Because I'm not telling you to go look for it. Avoid it to certain degrees. When it, it's, when it's noise, when it's chatter. Like people talk to me about politics all the time because I was former Secret Service. I don't participate. To me it's noise, it's chatter. I don't share and I never speak about. The people that I had access to are protected, sure. So, but that, it doesn't matter to.

Me. But a conflict between relationships of friends or family or co.

Workers. So it depends. If it's important to you, you should address it. What you do is it causes.

Long term regret if you don't address.

It. If you don't address, causes you to be. To build up resentment, anger, bitterness and hate. That's where that comes.

From. And then the other person doesn't even know what they.

Did. Maybe, maybe they know. But if you don't check them, because from time to time in life you have to. I say check this, my queen's coming out. But when I say check, address.

It. Yeah, check in with.

Them. Yes. You said this. This is how I see this. And when you, when you debate something with people, use language that's factual. You said this, you said this, you said this. You know, rather than trying to, trying to speak to people, you did this, you said this. You said this because you're giving somebody factual, something factual and tangible to look at. Rather than I feel this way, I feel that way. That's what, what happens is we get lost a little.

Bit. So say so instead of saying I feel this, you say, I heard you say this or you said this.

When you said this to.

Me. When you said this to.

Me. Okay, this is how I took it. Okay, this is why it's upsetting to me. Okay, I. Is this how you see me? Is this true? We also have to check in with ourselves sometimes. You know, we provoke people or we, we can be difficult people to deal with. But at the end of, right, we always like. And there's this, I don't know if you've noticed this. There's this over, this theme out there. Everybody's a narcissist and everybody's toxic. Everybody else, right, Everybody. And we don't realize one. Toxic, toxic people hang out with toxic people. So check in with yourself. So if you're around a lot of toxic people, check in with.

Yourself. Right?

Right. And then you can't label everybody a narcissist. You can't label everybody something just to make it okay for you and.

To put a blame on someone else. You didn't do.

That.

And. Yeah.

Right. Because we also have to look at what we're doing. What are we doing? Who are we engaging with? How much of this stuff do we bring into our lives? It's not. We're not always innocent. Sometimes we are. Especially, you know, in certain situations with serious trauma or abuse, especially with children, there are some situations where that is completely innocent. But then if you see a pattern in your life, if you see this, you have to find a way where you are not afraid to.

Speak. Why is it so scary for people to speak about a Disagreement or a.

Conflict? 1. Because the theme is to avoid it, avoid this stuff, avoid confrontation. Conflict and confrontation have a very negative tone, stigma. And I say, I always tell people, embrace confrontation. When I worked in the White House, you have the Cabinet room. The president sits in one seat. Then you have all the heads of the different departments. The whole goal of the Cabinet room was to debate things. So instead of. If somebody says to you or your boss says to you, you know, I, I didn't like the way this was done. Do it this way next time. And you hear, he doesn't like me. There's an issue there because you're making everything too much about yourself, taking it too personal. You're taking it, yes. Your. Your identity is becoming tied into everything. Whereas, can you just hear what he said or she said? They're telling you they didn't like the way this was done to be effective. Right. And execute quickly to get things done. They're just telling you, I don't like it. I want it done this way. And so we've lost that ability to. To not make everything about us. We're also in this very me, me, me, me, me, me, me space. Everything's me, me, me, me. And we don't think about the other person across from us. What are they dealing with? It's my boss. There's a deadline. They're just trying to communicate with me in an efficient way. And I think one of the blessings I had from being in the Secret Service, there was no. It was just very direct. Hey, this wasn't supposed to be done this way. Get it done this.

Way. Did people take it.

Personally? Zero, really. And we were so much more.

Efficient. Did they train you on how to not take things personally, or was that just a culture and you had to learn quickly, otherwise you would.

Suffer? I think when you go through training itself, they put you in very stressful situations. You begin to understand that this isn't about me, that you're about a collective unit or team. You are there for the other person. You're there. There's human life on the line. So you really understand the bigger concept and idea. And then you understand too what is the goal or the mission. The goal is to protect the President. The goal is to solve this case. You understand that there's a goal. You are less likely, very less likely to take things that, oh, you don't like me. It's like you have nothing to do with.

This. It's so interesting because I would say that I used to have a fragile, what would you call it? Personality maybe or confidence level. In my teens and twenties, when someone would give me critique or say I wasn't doing something right, I would take so much offense and take it personally. I would resist critique at all costs because I had a fragile identity about self belief. And then when I hit 30, I'm 39 now, I started going to a lot more emotional intelligence training workshops where they taught me the power of feedback and not to take it personally. And it was so challenging to receive feedback in these workshops. But the more I practice it, I was like, okay, actually I want feedback on how can I improve to be more effective in these areas of my life. And some things maybe are going to land for me and support me and other things, maybe it doesn't really resonate with me, but not take any of it personally. Just use it of how can I be more of service to my mission? I think I was so afraid of what people thought about me and how I looked as opposed to, am I just giving my best towards my mission in life right now? When you have the mission at a high level of presidency and protecting people, you're not thinking about yourself or what people think about you. You're just thinking about getting the job done at the highest level.

Right? Yes. But you're also thinking about too executing it to the best of your ability. I want to perform my best.

So give me more critique or feedback.

Right? Yeah, I think, you know, now I have people who work for me as well. And I always tell them, don't yes me. If you see something different, tell me. And then I'll do the. I'll make the best assessment that I can. I don't want you to yes me because I may see something different. I have a different background, a different mindset, Let me know. But we don't want to hear that. We want to be told how great we are. We want to be. We don't want to Hear that we're making mistakes where that we're wrong, we take it way too deeply. And what that does, it doesn't allow us to grow. It makes it harder for people to work with us. In fact, a lot of companies reach out in that one of the issues that they have is communicating to their employees. Whether you want to tell them, they, we want you to do this task this way. And when they speak to their employees, the employee hears something else, they get very upset. They get sensitive about it. They're like, we don't know how to dialogue with them to make them care about the task. Everything becomes about them personally, what.

They'Re not doing right or something, or how.

They'Re. Yes, how am I perceived? What do people think of me and at the court? And it's interesting that you said that. It does come from our.

Insecurity. So how do we overcome these insecurities so we're not offended by everyone that gives us.

Feedback? Well, you have to ask yourself, am I an insecure person? And be honest about it. And most people don't want to think of.

Themselves. I had a lot of false confidence growing up, like I thought, or I was confident in one area but not in other areas. So I could be confident in the sports arena, but then in life I would be more fearful of people's opinions. And it took a while to learn how to unlearn that and just be okay with.

That. Where do you think that came.

From? I mean, probably a lot of stuff. I was the youngest of four. I didn't have a lot of friends growing up because I was in the bottom of my class and I had special needs classes and tutors all through college. Even so I just felt like the thing I was spending the most time in school, I was the worst at compared to my peers. I think just getting picked on and made fun of it in that arena made me insecure about myself, thinking I'm not good enough, not smart enough, not whatever, talented enough. Then when I was more of a teenager, I got into sports and put all my energy and effort into that and started to excel, which gave me confidence. I got results in an area of life, so I went all in. But when I got injured playing football, I. When I was 23, I lost my identity in that. So it was like my confidence was tied to identity of sports. And then if I no longer have that identity, who am I and where does my confidence come from? So I had to learn later in my 20s, how to build confidence within with my character, which is what Something you talked about. It's like learning to trust people. Not based on really their results or who they are or how famous they are or what they've done or how much money they have, but on how they show up and their way of being. Consistently. I had to learn the hard way by making lots of mistakes and then shifting that through pain. Okay. Now I need to show up in a different way consistently. So I think that's how I learned. But part of me is grateful for the early training and the inner insecurities, but other part of me wishes I never had that also. But it allows me to connect with other people and see people and have a lot of empathy as.

Well. So I think when we are younger, yes, it's a bit more difficult during the teenage years and early adulthood. I mean, just factually, the human brain doesn't develop fully till you're 25 years old anyway. So there's all these other issues happening biologically, which is harder to communicate sometimes with younger people. In fact, actually when, even when we look at crime, the majority of crime committed is by younger people. 18 to.

25.

Wow. So it goes to show you that there's correlation there with other things. We also see higher rates of impulsivity within that age group. So the younger population typically is the more, you know, I'm sorry to all my younger people out there, but I was there too. It's. And if you think back where, it's where we are the most unstable, we are the most impulsive, which means we don't really think through things. We don't think of the consequences. We are much more identity based. Me, me.

Me. What we wear, who we're hanging out with, what we're.

Doing. I'm the sun. Everything revolves around.

Me. Right, right.

Right. And it is. And so that's where we also see this impulsive behavior. Impulsivity tends to be one of the characteristics when we see criminal behavior. Deviant.

Behavior.

Yeah. So when you hit that 25 mark, and there's a lot of theories trying to figure it, trying to figure out why that is. But we see, even when it comes to just crime and deviant behavior, we see a kind of a. It peaks, peaks, peaks. We hit 25 and then just starts to fall off the.

Cliff. Why is.

That? Some people think it's because of the biology, the development of the brain. You're fully developed.

Now. Other people think you have more responsibilities in your life. You got.

A. You have a job, you're responsible, you have you a spouse, maybe a partner. That you answer to. You have these responsibilities. Sometimes if you look at it just based off of gender, male gender, which tends to skew more towards committing crime. They also think the hormones, biology plays a role and testosterone plays a role in that as.

Well. Are more men committing crimes than.

Women? When we look at the data.

Yes. When we look at or getting caught, at least you know who's getting.

Caught. So I'll tell you this. So, yes, women, just better at not getting caught, actually. Women. So let me ask the first part. Yes. When we look at violent crime, overwhelmingly it's mostly men, however, violent crime. Yes, yes, violent crime. Actually crime overall, to be fair. But what we seeing as we have this equality taking place, what's interesting, we're also seeing women commit more.

Crime. Come.

On. Yes. So where we see actually more crime being committed by women is not really in the violent area. Violent crime. They're property.

Crimes. What are they.

Doing? Property crimes, Fraud, money.

Scams.

Really. And I'm trying to think back when I worked investigations, I would arrest quite a few women and the crimes that I would arrest them for typically was fraud, stealing money from the government, checks cashing, fraud schemes, electronic crime, fraud. Yes. That's where women tend to commit. When we look at the data, the most crime, violent crime, typically still at the moment skews more male, although women are definitely closing the gap. And then when we look at the male population, who's represented in a prison more, we do have men. However, to be fair, is it also the mindset that when a woman goes before a judge or the court and a man goes before the judge in the court, are they going to look at those two individuals, the bias, the bias.

Differently. They do, I'm assuming. Right. And you want to feel like, okay, we have to protect the woman maybe from what could happen in prison. I don't know.

What. I think it's because we don't.

Perceive. Could they really do this as. Could you really stab this person or shoot them in the.

Face? She seems so.

Nice. Yeah, she seems so put together. She's so kind.

Yes. Well, we don't perceive typically. I do think it's shifting, but we typically, historically women, even if you just look at something simple as who gets away with getting a speeding ticket, men versus.

Women.

Women. Right. Probably women.

Yes. Now it does. Who's harder on women in court, male judges or female.

Judges? So I would think female judges would be harder on women in court. It's something called double marginality where when you are. And they. They also noted this in. In races as well when it comes to race. When you are in that capacity.

Can'T let your race or your gender get away with.

Somebody. You will try to overcompensate to show I'm on this side, I'm a judge. I'm not going to be biased towards somebody because of gender or race because they're my same gender or race because it would not be perceived as well. So I might even be harder on on them just so that I'm not perceived as being soft on them, which is not.

Fair. That's tough. I'm curious. You know this. I've heard that. I don't know the statistic, but I've heard that women in relationships cheat just as much as men, but women don't get caught as much. Why is that? And I don't know the statistics, but that's what I've just heard. Why do you think if that's the case case that women don't get caught as much but still cheat as.

Much. You know, that's interesting. I'd not heard that. The one thing I had known is that what we're seeing more is women are more likely to file for divorce today than a man would. That I've heard. As far as lying and cheating, my experience, I've seen it. I've seen everybody lie and cheat regardless of gender people do it. So I've. In my years and years of interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people, to me, I've seen people lie equally and cheat.

Equally.

Really? I will say that, yes, I've not. I think some. I think certain people may not get caught perhaps because you're not looking at them as much. They're being.

Overlooked. You're not as intuitive maybe or.

Well, look, if maybe you're not thinking there as. I don't want to say that they're better liars because it has to do with the person. But if you don't see them as much of a threat, you're not going to suspect them as much. You know, here's a good example. I did undercover work. One of the reasons I felt comfortable doing undercover worked and I would get picked to do undercover worked is because I didn't let look like law enforcement. I didn't look threatening or menacing or anything like that. So I was more.

Successful. People trusted you more.

In. I wasn't looked as a threat. Oh, her high.

Five. She couldn't be a. She couldn't be a police or.

Secret service or even when I would do interviews or interrogations or even today if it's you know, on tv, on camera, or for the news. When I'm interviewing people, guards tend to be lower versus when you've got somebody else, maybe that's a man, that's bigger in size. You're going to be a bit more. Oh, I need to. It's just how we perceive people. But it all goes back to the way we size people up and we all do it. We have our perceived ideas of what we think of people. You meet someone within the first five seconds, you size them up, make your impression of them, what you think of them, and once you make that impression, especially if it's negative, it's very hard to.

Undo. Very hard to undo after the first few.

Moments. First few minutes, yes. And that's good for us to know, too, because when you're meeting someone, those few moments when people don't have. When they don't know you, they have nothing to judge you by. They judge you on what they see and how they put you.

Together. Your energy, what you say by your.

Speak. Your energy. Behavior. You say energy, I say.

Behavior. Behavior, yeah. We're in LA here. We say more energy. Right. But.

It'S. It's.

Behavior. It is.

Behavior. Everyone uses energy because they don't know how to define it. Assess people on behavior. When. And I'm bringing this up because this comes up a lot heavy. I feel this person. I don't know, it's like. No, you do know. It's.

Their. What are their behaviors? What are they.

Doing? What are they showing you? Because you'll get this. I love you. I love you. If you bring it that, it can be relationships or friendships. I love you. I would die without you. The most important person to me. People tell you that. But then when you look at the behavior, what does the behavior show you when you are to meet them? Are they there? Do they cancel on you? Do they show up on time? Are they present? Do they blow you off? So we get confused with I hear this, but they show me this. And so some people are very loud in the way they speak or very persuasive. And this is what people hear and follow. And then they're like, oh, but the energy of. It's off. Is it the energy or is it what they're actually showing you in their behavior, in their tone, even their paralinguistics, how they sound when they speak? Because you can even find deception sometimes.

In. In speech, in a.

Tone. Yeah, you'll see. You'll see a change in cadence. So if I'm telling you a story, I'm gonna lie to you. Which I wouldn't lie to you, Louis. But if I were gonna lie to you, right? You're asking me, evie, what did you do last night? And initially, we're having this great conversation, and then you start asking me, what did you do last night? And I don't want to tell you what I did. Maybe I went out with your girlfriend, and we partied it up. I want to cover for her. My cadence could shift, so I could be speaking normally. And then, yeah, we. You know, yesterday was good. I had a wonderful day. Abby, what'd you do last night? Oh, well, then I went to the.

Store. You have to think about a story now.

Yeah. Yes. Well, lying. Lying is work. It's not easy to.

Lie. It's.

Hard. It's hard. Lying is.

Work. You have to remember what you said of the lie.

Right? You have to remember. And most people, Louis, don't like to lie. Most. We don't like to lie. We know it's wrong. Nobody wants to be a liar. And so actually, the dominant way people lie is through omission. They leave parts.

Out. The white lies, or they leave something.

Out. No, white lie is. Evie, how do you like my outfit? I think you look amazing. I think you should. You look amazing. I love.

It. You like.

It? You look.

Good. You look.

Good. Let's say it was, like, bright fuchsia or something like that, right? And I'm like, no, no, Gray. You look great, Lewis. Right. That would be a white lie. Lying by omission is leaving something out. I leave a big crux of it out. So I'll tell you about my day yesterday, but I will leave out that part where I met up with your girlfriend and we went out and we hung out and we partied it up. I'll leave that part out. Or I'll leave out the part that she partied up. So that's why it's hard for people to spot lies sometimes. Because people will give us a story, but they leave this crowd out. And this is the thing you have to ask yourself, what's.

Missing? How do you know when something's.

Missing? Ask questions. Yeah, ask questions. When you see gaps in time, sometimes even in speech, you'll hear all of a sudden, and then. And the next thing I knew, those are. Those are typically sound bites of deception. Not always, but sometimes when you hear that it's somebody skipping time, a story. So somebody's telling you a story, and you get these great details they're sharing. Then you get to a part of the story. And there's a gap. And they're like, oh, yeah, we went out, it was fine. And then they kind.

Of. And then we came back and here's.

What. Yeah. Yes. You have to say to yourself, what's missing? It's almost like when people hire individuals to work for them and they look at their. Their resume, and then they look at their application form. Where did you work before? What did you do here? And then there's that gap of time, like for employment. Sometimes you'll see a gap of time. Oh, there's a couple of years here.

Missing. What'd you.

Do? You know, just do my own thing, traveling across.

Europe. But I got fired from three jobs. I just left that out. You don't have to call those.

People. I did the HR when I was in the service because I did the polygraphs, and I would look at their paperwork and I would see gaps of time for jobs or even when people got evicted because they would get asked, have you ever been thrown out or evicted because you want to see somebody's history? And so we'd ask them, where'd you live? And they would have to put years of, you know, I don't. I can't remember how many years back, but 10, 15 years back, where they've always. They've lived. And you'd see gaps of time. Would you live here? Just with some friends. Well, why didn't you write it down? We asked you to write it.

Down. This was for someone trying to be in the Secret Service, right?

Yes. I mean, our hiring pro. That hiring process was way more.

Intensive. So you put them through.

The. But I can. I can help you. I can help you out here for your.

Employees. Yeah, exactly. So you put them through a lie detector test and interrogate them on their whole.

History. Yes. So it's called when you do a polygraph. And this part I can share because I always want to be mindful. I don't want to say anything that's sensitive or classified. When you take. When you take certain federal jobs. So with U.S. secret Service, because people can write what they want to write, how do you verify what is or isn't truthful? And that's where it becomes tricky. And because of the nature of the job and the risk that comes with the job and the power that is given to someone, they do their best to validate that what is in the application is truthful. So there's two things. One, they'll look at national security stuff. Have you violated national security? Are you somebody who's trying to infiltrate that kind of thing. And then there's another part of it where it's. They call it lifestyle, which is where people struggle the most and people get disqualified the most. That is your history.

So. So if they were. If they've committed a crime. Yes. The first part. There's no chance they were gonna make the job.

Right? Depends on what the crime is, really. Well, it depends on what.

You. Well, when I was 14, I did.

This. And you know, or even 18 or 19. It depends on what you did. Because you have to look at people in general are.

Flawed.

Right. So especially when you're looking at the window of time, which you brought up. You know, I was young, I was.

This. Oh, man. Lots of.

Mistakes. Yes. And so I think with those, at least I can speak. What they look for more is truthful and honesty. And the thing is, if you're gonna lie about this, then what are you willing to lie about.

Later? Absolutely. The Black swan method is about succeeding with people not at their. Not at their expense. You know, get getting better at negotiation, not necessarily at the expense of other people. In point of fact, making the other person's position better, also not hurting them. Not hurting, but them succeeding. And you succeed.