The KEY HABITS All Successful People Have In COMMON! | Austin Kleon & Lewis Howes

I think people need to read obituaries. I think you need to spend some time every day thinking about people who are here, who aren't here anymore, and what they did when they were here. I believe strongly that if people thought about death...

I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

But I'm curious because a lot of people right now are feeling extremely sluggish. They're feeling extremely Ryder's block to the highest degree based on everything that's happening in the world, all the stresses, all the pandemic, loss of connection. I'm curious, do you have any routines that when everything is going against you as an artist, whether it be in the morning, evening, or the middle of the day, to support you in your process of actually putting out something meaningful?

Yeah, I'm a big believer in starting the day without your phone. So kind of having 30 minutes to an hour first thing in the morning to just kind of drink coffee, wake up. And I like to do one of two things during that hour. I either like to read, which is kind of weird people think like read in the morning, but it always gives me something to think about and kind of riff off of. So I like, I have a few books around, sometimes I read, but the main thing I do, the thing that sustained me through this whole pandemic, and before that is the notebook habit that I keep. I write in a notebook every day. And that's sort of the heart. And, you know, I'm a writer, so that's where a lot of the stuff starts, is in the notebook. And I do about three pages in the morning, and I just do that no matter what. And that kind of loosens me up. It's sort of like Julia Cameron's Morning Pages, if people know about that. Sort of a modified version. Sometimes I draw, sometimes I write in there. and that takes me through. That's like a constant in my creative life, like no matter what's going on is reading and writing. And it doesn't, and it could be scribbles that no one else is ever going to see, you know?

It's kind of like I think about, I'm an athlete, so I think of sports analogies with everything. You know, when I would go and play basketball, when I was playing basketball heavily at a higher, a higher level, you want to start shooting three pointers.

Yeah.

You would start like, okay, let me do some dribbling drills, let me do some layups, let me do a couple free throw shots to warm up, and then you back up to the bigger ideas, the bigger shots, and you kind of go for it. I mean, maybe some people start with three pointers like Steph Curry or something, but for me, it was always, let's warm it up.

Let's- yeah, it's warm up. It's like doing a lot of jogging around the court. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or stretching or anything like that. And I do think that, you know, I'm not a sports guy, but I am always, I believe a lot in cross-disciplinary kind of investigations. And so I do, I take from sports the elements of practice. And the idea of thinking about writing as a physical activity has been really curious to me because thinking of it as, and this, this helps if you write long hand. is that you literally are working out certain muscles. I mean, like my hand will cramp when I'm writing. So thinking about writing as a physical activity as something you do with your body, I mean, I think that there's a lot of crosstalk. There's a lot in sports that you can, there's a lot of crosstalk between creative work and sports. I think the big thing about the difference I see a lot of times is that in sports you've got, You know what you kind of want to do, like you want to sink the ball through the hoop. But when you're doing creative work, you don't know where the hoop is or where you're even going to throw it, you know? So that's kind of, but there are a lot of ways I think they talk to each other. But for me, it's that it's, it's about muscles. It's about memory. It's about practice.

What do you think are, you know, you study this a lot. You do this a lot yourself. You write about these things, but I know you have a circle of highly talented creative writers, artists as well that you're connected to. What have you seen some of the key habits of just the most successful creatives that you know or you know of?

I think what I see is just persistence. I mean, and I think that's across the board and multiple fields. I have seen people, the fun thing about getting older and being around for a while is I have literally seen people that was like, well, that sucks. Who cares? And then five years later, they're really good. and they have a huge audience.

Like, I've literally... They were nobody. They're tweeting at you like, oh, check out my work.

And you're like, Right. Horrible. That's why you have three followers. And there are people who have sent me... I mean, I've boned up. There are some famous people now who have sent me books that I just ignored that now are way more popular than me. So, I mean, it's like, it's just you...

I think persistence sticking around. Really? Wait, so who are some of these famous people that sent you books? to, to what?

Review or to take a look? Oh, I wouldn't. And it wasn't anything like, it wasn't anything malicious. There's just people that like, well, I'll tell you, there's a guy named James Clear, Atomic Habits.

I know Jay. I've known James for over a decade. I met him when he, when he had, like, a small little blog back in 2009, we met, and he was just getting started.

Yeah. He's from Columbus, Ohio. So he grew up. So he's, like, from pretty close to where I grew up. I grew up in Circleville, like 40 minutes.

I grew up in Delaware, Ohio.

Oh, well, so Ohio, we're all talking. Yeah. Sniff out each other eventually. So James sent me atomic habit or his publicist sent me atomic habits when it, you know, early, and I just kind of looked at it and I was like, oh, that sounds cool. And just put it away because I was doing something else, you know, and, like, late, you know, now it's like this newsletter has, like, a million followers and. I read it. I finally read it last year just because I was, you know, I was kind of, like, puttering out myself. I was like, I could use some better habits. I should, you know, read this book. It was great, you know? And I was like, well, what a. I was. I could have been in on the. But, you know, it's one of those things where I sent him an email, and he's too famous. He doesn't check his email anymore. So it's like, oh, well, that's fine. But, like, that's the other thing as a I was that way, too, when I was. I mean, you just stick around and. And I just think it's interesting how. But I love that. I think it's. It makes me feel great because it's like there's just so much possibility, you know? And there's just people I remember. I I just mentioned James because he's not going to care. I wouldn't mention anyone else's name, but, you know, there's just people I just thought, oh. and now they're doing great and they have a big audience and they do a lot for people. And, you know, that's the other thing that I try to tell people all the time. I'm like, you know, instead of saying this sucks, I don't like this, I don't care. Just say it's not for you. Just say it wasn't for me because that, that, that phrase, it wasn't for me just means it's not for you right now because it, and it, it It can still be for other people. And if you use that phrase, it can also mean it could be for me later because I'll be a different person on down the road and maybe it's for me then, you know, so I try to like use that phrase. I'm, you know, I'm a writer, so I think a lot about language and, and the, the words that people use. And it wasn't for me feels like, It's better than that sucks or, you know. You know what I mean? Like it leaves open possibility. I love that. I love being wrong though, too. You know, I'm someone who, I love being wrong because that means I'm gonna learn something. Yeah.

I'm curious, did you grow up in Circleville with AJ Hawk and kind of that crew of guys that went off to Ohio State and the NFL?

Oh, I'm trying to think of who, so my dad worked for Ohio State. he was a 4-H agent, so we could get tickets. I like the basketball. I was, I was, I was really into Ohio State basketball when, like, Jimmy Jackson and Lawrence Funderburk and stuff. They were playing.

That was amazing.

So, like, my mom and I would go to those games, and that was fun. I still really like basketball, but that was. Yeah. So we would go up there and, I, you know, I, I remember. I do remember going to Ohio State. It was just all Ohio State propaganda in my house. Michigan sucks.

That's every house in Ohio.

Yeah.

What are some of the other, I'm hearing you say persistence is one of the key habits. What are some other habits you're seeing of great creatives besides just showing up and just improving day after day, year after year until they put out some good work?

I think a willingness to suck is great. you know, willing to be bad until you're okay. I also have decided that to be a public person, which, you know, part of having your work out in the world means you're going to be a public person. It helps to not have an embarrassment gene. And what I mean by that is, you know, I'm a pretty extroverted guy. I don't mind learning in public. I really don't mind being like almost wrong in public or being rough in public, you know, because I just don't really have a humiliation gene in me. And it's interesting, I've been thinking a lot about this because I'm a dad and I have two boys and one of my boys is just like me, like he'll do stuff in front of people, he doesn't care, like he'll learn something in front of you. My other boy is an introvert and he's the exact opposite. He needs to go away and learn things before he shares with people. And but I think the people who are a little bit more extroverted and are okay with being messy in public, I think they have a little bit of an advantage. You know, there's a fine line between being a sociopath and an artist, unfortunately. And you can see that in the culture, right? I mean, but there is there's just a little edge though. because over time, the people who are often doing their thing, they will catch up and they'll be even better. So I, I do think there's a little bit of a, like, being, being willing to be embarrassed.

Yeah.

Embarrassed or, or be rough or, or be wrong in public. I think that helps, too. But, you know, like, showing up, persistence, being willing to be wrong. Being flexible, quickly, you know, being improvisational with what happens.

How do you think people get over the fear of the embarrassment, the public criticism, the public laughing, the snarky replies or comments or horrible reviews? How do we get over that? Because I feel like it's something that cripples people from, excuse me, from actually just putting out something. They talk about writing their book for five to 10 years. They have this brilliant idea. They want to put out their screenplay. They want to put out something, their podcast, whatever it is, but they're so afraid of people laughing at them, of it not being perfect. And no one's ever gonna be perfect the first time you put out anything. It's taken me, you know, 12 years to be where I'm at and I'm still growing and I still make mistakes.

Right.

So what do you think people need to do in order to overcome that fear of embarrassment?

Read obituaries. I think people need to read obituaries. I think you need to spend some time every day thinking about people who are here, who aren't here anymore, and what they did when they were here. Because it couldn't get, I mean, what's the worst that could happen, right? I mean, it's, I really, I believe strongly that if people thought about death a lot more, because it's interesting when you read obituaries, they're not really about death, they're about life. they're about lives that were lived. And there's something about reading obituaries for me that just opens up a whole. First of all, there's always that kind of human rush of. And this is terrible, but I think it's true. There's always that kind of human rush when you read an obituary where you're like, I'm alive. I'm still alive. You know, like, this person's gone, but I'm. I'm here. And, like, what should I do now? You know, if it doesn't completely cripple you. But I have felt like I had a friend, the artist Jason Polan died last year and he died before the pandemic really. He had cancer. And when I heard Jason died, I sort of felt like it was the first obituary I had read that was really close to.

And I- what did it say? Do you remember?

Well, I mean, it was just, you know, Jason Polan, famous artist, dies at 37, tried to draw New York, you know. But the thing that I felt like my pen was haunted after Jason died.

Really?

I felt very much this urge to, I had a few of the pens that he used kind of laying around the studio. And so I was drawing with them and I was drawing a lot. And I felt this real urge right after he left, like, I have to keep doing this because someone, I'm very interested, I'm interested in like, I'm interested in the more, I like fictional, even if you don't really believe in spirits or ghosts or something, I think they're really useful fiction sometimes. So like one time I was reading this interview with Michael Jackson and he said, you know, as crazy as they get, right? Michael Jackson, he was saying, you don't understand. If I'm not here to receive these ideas, God will give them to Prince. And I. And I thought, I love that, though. Even if you don't believe in God or if you don't believe in spirits or it. I think there's something to who's gonna. Who's gonna do this work if I don't do it? Like, now that Jason's gone, like, who's going to keep drawing? Who's going to keep the spirit alive? Who's going to pass this on? And it was interesting, I wrote my first obituary last year. My aunt Becky died and the family asked me if I would write it. And I think every obituary you read, it could have been so many other things too. Like a writer picks very specific things to put in an obituary. but you could go a million different ways with it. And when you're writing an obituary, there's different kinds of obituaries, of course, but the kind I was trying to write was like honoring the family's general, you know, idea of this person, like who was Aunt Becky? And, but then I started thinking about who Aunt Becky was to me, and I could have written a whole different obituary. So I just think obituaries are this thing because they, and there's so many of them now that almost that's too much. But even before the pandemic, I just felt this deep connection to obituaries because there was always some little nugget in each obituary that I could use. And I could rattle some of them off, you know, I share some of them. They keep, there was a comedy writer named, I don't remember his name. Tom, I'd have to look in my files, but there was a comedy writer who said, you know, I've woken up every day of my life wondering if I could still do this. That pops in my head. Like, here's this guy, Tom, I think was his name, or Coke. He was like a writer for sitcoms or something like that. But he was like, I've literally woken up every day. It was like in his 80s or something. I've literally woken up every day wondering if I could do this. this again. There was another obituary about, I think it's Phyllis and the Dillons. They were this African-American couple who did science fiction illustration covers. And they talked about when they worked together, there was a third thing that happened. There was the two of them, but then together there was this third thing, and they called it it. There was something about their collaboration and I remember that strongly thinking, oh, that's like my wife and I when we work. It's like we're making this third thing out of this bond. So, you know, I just have this file in my head. There's always something to learn from obituaries. It's a, you know, Joan Rivers joke. She said it's a great way to meet men. Yeah, because she was old, she'd read the obituaries. Oh, he's free now. But like, it's also a great way to meet people that you don't know. You just look into obituaries every day. So I think people should read obituaries.

And think about that. What happens to you when you start reading them?

I'm just curious, I mean, curiosity, just like, oh, this is interesting, you know, just 'cause it's always interesting to read about people. And they're usually written in a very, the fun thing about writing an obituary. I mean, it wasn't fun. I mean, but the fun thing about actually, I don't know that that's true. And that, that is a weird, that's a weird feeling to have. Actually, I, I really enjoyed writing my, I didn't want to write my, my aunt's obituary, but I, it was one of the most, it was the most important piece of writing I did last year. But the thing that was cool about I called my father-in-law who's been a newspaper reporter for 35 years. His name's, he was until he retired. He worked for the Cleveland Plain Dealer. His name is Tom Ferron. And Tom sort of walked me through the OBIT process because he's won awards with his obituaries. And they have a structure and they have a, there's a format to writing an obituary. And you rely on that. It's, there's a, there's a, there's a way it's done and it's not worth reinventing the wheel with it because, so you, as you read obituaries, you understand the format which takes it through, takes you through to the interesting stuff. You know, you get all the information right away and then you can dive into the interesting stuff. Like my wife, Megan has a, she talks about documentaries now. And how many documentaries are really interesting, but after you watch the documentary, you have to go to Wikipedia to actually find out the very basic information that you didn't cover in the documentary. But obituaries do that right away. Like so-and-so who was 78 died at her home here. She's, you know, and there's these, there are these, there's a format to it. And so they are comforting. Because it's comforting to read, it's comforting to read things where you know they're going to go, but there's going to be some surprises along the way.

Yeah. What would you want your obituary to say if it was, if you died tomorrow?

I don't care. I don't care. It's really interesting. It's weird because I read them all the time. but I just don't. I mean, I would like people to say, you know, I I wish it would say he survived by his loving family. You know, I mean, that's all I really care about, is, like, he survived by his two sons and his wife, you know, loving wife, loving family. I think it would, you know, but I I. I would just, you know, I've made poems about this. It's like, I just want to be someone who this wasn't wasted on. That's what I would want the obituary. I would want, I guess I don't.

Life wasn't wasted on.

Yeah, I don't care about the text almost as much as the subtext, which is this wasn't wasted on him. So that's what I kind of go for. I just, you know, especially as I get a little bit older, it's like, I just don't want to make a I'm very interested, for example, in people whose success, they didn't waste it, you know, that they, they, they take their success and try to do something bigger with it. That's something that I, you know, that's something I look at someone like, like in the literary world, there's a lot of people who have done a lot of good that people are sort of blase about, like someone like Dave Eggers. Like, Dave Eggers is a guy who I think, you know, it's, he's been around so long, it's very easy to sort of oh, yeah. Dave Eggers, huh? But, like, what he's built with his success and what he built with the success very early on, like, with McSweeney's and with the a29 program. 826. 826. The writing centers and just all of that advocacy work. I'm like, you know, he's someone who's really took. I I appreciate that now, someone who takes their success and really pays it forward.

Yeah.

Yeah. It makes a world with it, you know? So I'm always trying to think about that. The problem with my books being popular has coincided with becoming a father. Steel Like an Artist came out in March and then my first son Owen came in October. So I've never done this without having a really young family and I just don't have the juice to do too much more than raise these kids and write these books. so at this stage of your life, yeah, at this stage in my life. And, and I think people forget that. It's like you can have it all, just not at once. Right. Right. You know, so for me right now, it's just working family, and that's it. That's all I, my work and my family, and that's, that's pretty much all I have time for.

And so for people that feel stuck or that they have these ideas or dreams for years and they never take action on them, I'm hearing you say read more obituaries because it'll get you into realizing the people that did take action and what their life looked like and the people that didn't take action and what their life could have been had they taken action. Why do you think it takes us so long for some people, not everyone, but for so long of us to put our ideas out there? How is it a fear of embarrassment so strong? that we're willing to take it to our grave, our ideas and our dreams and never put them out there.

I think there's also an ambition gene or there's something in people that they just want it really bad. You just have to really want it. And it's not something that can be willed. John Baldessari used to say that, you know, you have to have something and that can't be willed. and, you know, you just have to want it more than not. You have to want it more than the failure would hurt. You know what I mean? Like, the pain of failure. The pain of failure. Like, yeah. And. And you. But, I mean, there's so many people who don't get it, you know, even if they want it really bad, they.

Never get recognized for their work. They don't get a big audience. No one buys their stuff. But at least they put it out there, at least they created it, right? I'd rather create and have five people read or watch or listen and be proud of me putting something out there that I cared of, then think about something I care about and never act on it.

And there's two things. There's the making and there's the sharing. So the most important thing is to always be making. The most important thing, I think, is to be in love with the doing, with the verbs, the, the actual acts, the dribble. If you want to talk in sports terms, you know, the dribbling, the shooting, the practice. Yeah. Yeah. But the sharing is another. There's, there's always a sort of, like, generosity in the making, in a sense, just because you're like, I don't know if it's generosity. Sharing is about generosity. It's about and maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's putting yourself into your craft enough that you come up with something that you genuinely feel like needs to be in the world. I think a lot of people, you know, they're just not there yet. They know, and I think this happened to me when I was really younger. I mean, when I first started out, I knew I wasn't any good. I knew that I didn't have work that was good enough that anyone should care. but I wanted to be part of the world, like, right then. And that's when I started my blog. And I. I was, you know, I was right out of college. It was like 2005, and I started going to readings. I wanted to be a fiction writer. Then I have no talent for fiction. I have no talent for inventing things, which quickly became obvious. But I really wanted to be a fiction writer, and so I would go and I would. I would go to readings by fiction writers and I would take my sketchbooks and I would draw the writers as they were reading because, you know, nobody draws. I mean, people take pictures, but like nobody draws. And if you just sit in a room and don't move too much when you're drawing, no one really notices unless they're right or next to you. So it was like a great thing to do. But then I took the drawings and I would post them on my blog when I got home. and I met more writers that way. I can't tell you. I mean, I, I met some from.

Them seeing your drawings. Oh, thank you.

Because everybody has a Google alert on their name, and everyone loves to be drawn. I mean, especially if it's not a bad drawing. I mean, people don't want it's bad drawing. Yeah, but if it's, like, a cool drawing, and if you put some words underneath the drawing that that show that you were paying attention and you linked to their book. Then you're really being generous, right? And yes, and they're more apt to share it. So it's like, that was like my way of starting is I'm gonna draw other people's books. And then, so I would draw them at readings. The other thing I started doing is I started making these maps of people's books. I would actually read a book and then I would draw a map of it of like the ideas in the books and I would post that online. And I met a lot of writers that way.

That's cool.

So basically what I was doing was I was studying how writers were in the world and what they were doing and drawing them. But then I was also studying their books and drawing their books. And that was all just, it turned out to be instead of drawing other people's books, now I draw my own books. Right.

It was all the practice reps. I've interviewed Robert Greene many times and he said, I didn't start out as this writer who was writing these unique, weird, interesting type of books structured in the way that I do, the 48 Laws of Power, the Art of Seduction, you know, mastery. He's like, I wasn't writing those books 20 years ago. I was doing copywriting for five years. Then I worked at a newspaper for a couple of years. Then I worked as a screenwriter. and I was actually never great at any of these things. I was good, but it wasn't the main, it wasn't my calling. But it led me to the next thing, which led me to the next thing, which created this web of influences and range, as you will, of creative work to then put it into my own type of work, 48 Laws of Power, Art of Seduction, Mastery, all these things that people loved. and it took, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 years for him to develop that skill, just like what sounds like you did. Okay, you were consuming these live readings. You were drawing them. Then you were mapping out their work, and then you made it your own.

But I was a fan first. Yeah, I was a good fan first. And you get that from, like, if you watch old clips of, like, Kobe Bryant, he'll talk about, like, I'm just a fan of all these people and I'm just stealing their moves and I'm just trying to do, I'm trying to do the game better. And Kobe's one of those, he was one of those guys that grew up with VHS tapes, which makes it completely, you know, the way I've had it explained to me is it's like when you can watch replays of other players and famous players and watch their moves, you can do study, you can study on the couch. yeah. As a player, you know, you don't have to be, like, up against them to. And that. That idea that you're a fan first, that you ingest all this stuff first and you take it in and it mixes around, and then through your practice, all that stuff comes gushing out eventually, and it comes out in a new. It's like a gumbo in your head. You know, you're just adding stuff, and eventually you ladle it out and. something new.

Is there such a thing as an original or new thought? Or is everything an old thought that's repackaged in an innovative way?

I think there's definitely such a thing as an original thought. I don't think it's original in the way we think of it, though. I think an original thought is usually the result of what we've just been talking It's someone who has been usually people who have really original thoughts. And let's back up for a minute. There are lots of original thoughts. I mean, four-year-olds have very original thoughts all the time. It's an original thought that changes the world or that changes the, you know, the field or whatever. Usually that is from someone who is deeply doing exactly what we're talking about is deeply connected to either sources that came for them or the scene around them, you know, very rarely is something, I'm trying to think of an example of something that is new and original, changes the world, that comes from someone who wasn't doing the kind of work that we were talking about. Right.

I've read David Epstein's Range.

I love that book. I just wrote about it on my blog. I think it's a, I think it's sort of an instant classic.

It's so good.

David did in that book. I think it's Ryan Holiday had a really good, he told me it was a parenting book in disguise. And I think Ryan's right.

Yeah.

I mean, it's easy for me to love that book because it was sort of a, it was kind of a validation.

Me too.

How I've kind of lived my life.

Yeah.

And the fact that range can speak to, like, I always think a book is really good when I'm still, first of all, if you're still thinking about a book two weeks after you read it, that's pretty good. If you're thinking about a year after you read it, that's very good. And if you think about things in the news and how they could be chapters in the book, then it's very, very good. David's book you know, I was reading about the Williams sisters, and I thought, well, this could have been in David's book, you know, because the Williams sisters were talking about how they were hanging out with the Mannings. They were, like, doing some sort of charity thing. And the Mannings suck at tennis. I mean, they were trying out tennis, and they really were bad. But Venus was saying they had this skill from practice. You could tell that every shot they hit. They were getting like a little bit better. They were taking the feedback. And she said by the end of like how many ever hours or minutes they were together, they were okay.

Right.

You know, and I just think like that is you can see that in the creative field, too. There's something to or in the creative fields, there's something about learning what it's like to start with a certain kind of time, space and materials. and getting something out of it. There's something about that that translates to other mediums that you can kind of. So I, I actually think, and this is very, I think this is unpopular, this, this way of thinking, but I think that, like, if you're, like, a really good writer, for example, you know, you might be an okay film editor because you know what it's like to shape things, or if you're a film editor, you might be a really good writer because you know what it's like. to take material and just shape. You know what I mean? So I think there's a kind of cross disciplinary, cross medium. I think creativity, you get, it's like a thing that you do and you can do it in different realms.

Yeah, I think you're right. And maybe I'm just validating myself in my childhood because my parents put me in every type of sport. You know, it was seven different sports.

Yeah.

And so you're always going to a different thing for that season, sometimes two things for that season. I don't know if kids are doing that today or if that's what parents are doing now, but for us back in Ohio, it was like, okay, you're doing soccer and football, and you're doing baseball and basketball, and you're doing this camp and swimming and tap dancing. It was like I was doing every type of athletic sport there was available for me, maybe because my parents were just like, get out of the house and, you know, get our hair. But it was probably, but they didn't specialize me. which I'm really grateful for because I.

Think that's a gift.

Maybe I could have been unbelievably specialized and talented at one thing, but I never was. I was always really good at all these different sports, but I was never the best on any team.

Right.

Maybe when I got in high school, I was like, you know, whatever, the starter and the best and stuff. But growing up, I was never the best. And it was the range of things that I was able to cross pollinate to different sports and apply where people that I would see who are only playing basketball, they didn't have certain skills that I was able to develop. And I'm not saying I was better than them, but I was able to see things differently based on catching a football for three months and running routes and then applying that to basketball as opposed to them just only playing basketball and shooting shots and being on that field. And maybe they were better for a little bit. as specialized, but over the season, I could apply these other range of skills to just be an overall better player, teammate, you know, those things. So I think it's important in, in every discipline that you're in to develop a range of skills. And you're going to suck at some of these things at points, but I think it's important because it will make you a more interesting human in the long run.

Absolutely. And there's a dark side to what you were talking about, with specialization, especially in sports. I mean, you see a lot of 20 year olds that, like, break their.

Femur and you're done.

And you're just over because your identity.

Is crippled because you have no, no other thing that you're good at that.

But also the reason your femur is broken is because you only play one sport and these repetitive, like a tiger.

Woods, just constantly hitting the ball over and over. His back is broken.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like what you're talking about doing multiple sports. You're actually, like, building your body in different ways, like, and. An off season and rest is like really, really important. This is something as a culture, I feel like we've like completely lost track of what rest is and what it means to rest and to have time off and how important rest and sleep is to complete a lot of the activities that we do.

The post season is huge.

Yeah.

I mean, there's the post season, the preseason.

It's part of the work.

Exactly.

All these things are part of the work. It's not just that the work happens in the season, like the postseason and the preseason. I mean, and I think the closest thing that I do to sports, I mean, other than like doing pushups or something, is I play the piano. And I'm always, there comes a point practicing the piano where you're just done for the day. You're like, okay, this is You know, you get blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get to a point where it's good and then it gets worse and you say, okay, this is, but then you sleep on it and this magical thing happens when you go back to the keyboard the next day, you can do it.

And you can do it perfectly and you're like, Bach, you're just like, yeah, yeah.

And it really feels like, I mean, your brain worked it out, you know, and I just, I believe deeply in the power of a good night's sleep on, on pretty much anything.

Yeah, I'm doing that. I'm learning that right now in, I'm taking Spanish classes. It's been something I've been wanting to do for 20 years and I always say I'm going to do it and then I never do. And I try and I get tired and I'm exhausted. And my brain hurts so much right now, Austin, when I'm taking these classes. And I feel like I'm not improving at all most of the time. But then sometimes I take a couple of days off and I come back and I'm getting a little bit. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember this and I'm connecting the dots. And you can't just force it all the time in your brain. You need that rest time as well.

Yeah.

What would you say to people that.

Are.

Always in idea phase, always in thinking about phase, and they're not finishing work? Maybe they're starting the work, but they're never finishing. Let alone posting or publishing or shipping. They're not even completing and they just keep talking about I'm writing, I'm in the process, I'm in the process. What do you say for people like that on how they can actually complete something and ship it?

Deadlines. I mean, for me, I've told people, so it's death and deadlines. So we talked earlier about death and obituaries. That's the gun to your back or the nudge, you know? But the deadline is the real... having a deadline, even if it's artificial, is the only way to work, in my opinion, to have to show something at some point to somebody is the only thing that keeps me... you know, I've got deadlines right now that I don't even... I don't even have a boss or anything, but I've got deadlines to myself.

But if you're not... if you don't get in advance and some publisher down your throat for a deadline, how do you create that deadline?

Well, I, you know, you-'re like, I.

Just wanna put out this blog post.

Right.

It's not perfect yet.

Well, I have, so I have internal deadlines. So for example, I try to blog every day, which is overkill, but I've noticed that when I blog every day, good things happen. That ideas come quicker to me. I'm thinking a lot more. I might not be writing a book as well, but like I'm learning a lot more and then people are hitting the website more and that means more traffic. You know, it's just like a nice stew of things. But I would say the reason I blog every day is more for my benefit personally, just that I learn things and I have to make things and then when I blog them, after I've hit publish is when I realized what the piece was actually about. and then I'm like, okay, I need to scribble more notes or have a follow-up post or this needs to be a book chapter, you know? And then the other deadline I have is every week I have to put out this newsletter. So there's. I'm always in the back of my mind. It's kind of like, well, what's the big piece for the newsletter this week? Like, what's that going to be? What have you done? You know? So I sort of have this internal deadline editorial calendar. in my head, if not on paper, that just sort of nudges me along. And I told people that a long time ago. I said, you know, I didn't start a blog because I had something to say. I started a blog to figure out what I had to say. Because when you're looking at that blank WordPress box or whatever it is, you're inspired to, like, what do I fill this with? And that is the question, you know, and if you do that every day, and it's the same thing with a blank page. It's like you look at a blank page and you're like, what could this, what could be in this, you know, that's pretty much all I need. But the other thing is, and I say this a lot, is like discipline with desire is easy. If you want, discipline isn't that hard. If you have real desire. I mean, if you want something bad enough, the discipline is not too difficult. I think discipline without desire is very difficult, but when you have the desire, I mean, you know, I'm always pretty self-deprecating. I don't know if it's from being from Ohio or being Midwestern or whatever it is, but at the end of the day, you know, I wanted this. I wanted this really bad. you know, you had the desire.

You wanted to make something.

I had the desire.

You wanted to put it out in the world. You wanted people to recognize it, all that stuff.

I wanted to be my heroes. I wanted to be. I wanted to write books. You know, I just. I. That's what I wanted to be. I want, you know, and. And. And I'm not trying to diminish people who really want it, who it's not happened for them, because that's not what I'm talking about, and that's not what we're talking about. I mean, it's one thing to go after things hard and not get them. But it's a different thing to not go after them in the first place.

That's true.

Which I think is usually people's. Yeah.

And I've put out work that I had high hopes for. I was like, man, I put a lot of time and energy to this thing. I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity that came out in 2017. And I remember, or no, 2018. 2017, I think. And I remember being like, man, I spent a year and a half researching this. This is For me, this is the most meaningful, important piece of work I've ever done in my life, piece of content. It's about masculine vulnerability, how men can like tear down the walls that hold them back from feeling deeper, from connecting to their partners more, from having more peace and love in their heart for the world, all these things. I interviewed all the top researchers, you know, all this. And it was the most vulnerable thing opening up about all these different traumas, everything. and it was a, it was like a call to men to kind of like open up and a call for women to learn more about the men in their lives who might be guarded. And I remember I was like, even if a lot of people don't read this, it's going to be my most important piece of work probably that I'll ever do because of the healing that could take place for people that do read it. And, I mean, it's done well, but it didn't hit the New York Times bestseller list like my first book. And so there's some let down of like, oh, I had high hopes and this and that. and it continues to sell and do well, but it didn't do as well as my first book. And in a little bit, I also knew that. I was like, it's more of a niche idea. It's not as broad for the world. It's more for people that really want to dive into this. But you still have this sense of, okay, well, there's some letdown or there's some, you put all this energy into something that doesn't do the way you want it. and so. And you got to let go of that expectation, right?

Absolutely. You do. I mean, that happens to me with every book. I mean, the funny thing is about books is if you're lucky enough to keep them in print, you just don't know when a book is gonna come back around. I mean, it was funny because when keep going came out, which is the third in the trilogy I just wrapped up, I just thought, oh, man, I. Nailed this. This is my best thing. This is like, this is so tight. It's like the last crusade. It's like, okay, everyone really likes Raiders of the Lost Ark. And then there's Temple of Doom, which is really tricky and whatever. But this is like the last crusade. It's like a return to form. It's like whatever. And I was like, this is just gonna end game.

This is end game.

You know, like, bam. You know, and it did fine and did well. And I had a wonderful book tour. But just didn't like blow up. I was like, this is the Oprah book. Like Oprah's going to get this. She's going to be like, oh, you know, you have these delusions of grandeur in your mind as a writer. And then this really funny thing happened is like the pandemic hit. And then people started to say, I realized like, oh, this is like a pandemic guide. This is going to be like, people are going to pick this up because like the first, it's Groundhog Day. We're talking on Groundhog Day. This won't play on Groundhog Day. But like the first chapter in that book is every day is Groundhog Day. It's like everyone in the pandemic has been like, oh man, this feels like Groundhog Day. I was like, well, this is the book to get through the pandemic. But then this really funny thing happened. Show youw Work took off my second book because people in the pandemic are like, how do I show, this is a great time for me to maybe like get my side hustle going or like start a new blog or a website. How do I do that? So people are like picking up Show youw Work Now. now, and it's having, like, a moment, and it's like, you just don't know with these things. And it is a great lesson in ego reduction, and it's a great lesson just about art in general. And it's been true of every artist who's ever put work out in the world. The stuff that is the closest to you is not the stuff that will take off.

Interesting.

And the stuff that you feel like is you. Just piddling around playing is going to be the stuff that everybody loves. Everybody's going to love that stuff. And you just have to balance out. It's just about making a lot of work and putting it out there because nobody knows anything. Nobody. I mean, the screenwriter, I think it's William Goldman. I can never remember his last name. He said it. He was like, nobody knows anything. That is the number one rule of Hollywood. It's true in publishing. Nobody knows anything. I try to remind myself all the time with Steal Like an Artist. That was written by a 27 year old overnight for a, I mean, it was thrown together almost quick, quick for a, for a talk. And then it became a blog post and then it was put together in two months. Wow. I had two months to finish that book, and it was, like, rough and just, I had no idea what I was doing other than I had this idea that, you know, I. I mean, I was trying. I figured, what the hell? Let's go for it, you know? And it's just like. And then the book, it just doesn't stop, you know? And. And it's like. It's like a first album for a band or something. They've got everything that's going up, even though it wasn't my first book, you know, it. It had all this material that I built up over like 10 years. And it was quick and dirty, man. People love, I mean, it's got an energy. There's something about embodied energy and art that, you know, art contains energy and it is released through the reader. Like a book has embodied energy that the authors put in, but it's released by the reader. and every time somebody comes back to steal like an artist, it just has this. It's like a punk album or something. It's like, it just go. Comes in fast, and there's a bunch of stuff, and people just get unlocked by it. You know, for me, it's like, I mean, you know, Mary Carr, who is 20 times the writer I'll ever be. She has talked about reading old work, and she says she's a Texan, you know, so she's like, It's like sniffing old dog turds. I mean, Mary Carr is like written. I mean, she's just like this goddess to me, you know, but she still speaks in that Texas vernacular. It's like sniffing old dog turds. You know, the minute you finish something, the execution of a project means it's dead to you in a sense. I mean, it's for someone else then, but it never ceases to amaze me the things that take off. you know, what is easy is often what is that crazy that goes. The problem is, is you got to balance that knowledge with the work you really want to do and the stuff that you really think will last and, and make an impact. Yeah.

And to follow up on that, a lot of people think that making a living with art or their content or writing or music is impossible to make a full-time living or A living that's an abundant living. What advice would you give to those that want to make a full-time living with their art and not be a starving artist?

Don't. I think it's a terrible way to make a living. I still do. I would also caution people, I think 100% of people should practice an art and about 0.05% should actually try to make a living off of it. And that's controversial now. Everyone's supposed to be able to make a living off the what they love. I just, if you look at the history, there's just not that many people that make a living off their art, man. It's just not in the cards for a lot of people. I mean, there's usually, you know, there's usually, my friend Hugh McLeod has this thing called the Sex and Cash Theory where it's like, there's always like the sexy part of the job and then there's this part that makes the actual money. I don't know if I would say it in that terms, but it's sort of like for me, I don't really make a living off my passion. Like, I mean, I make a living off the byproducts of my passion. You know, like a lot of this, like my books are just the byproduct of me trying to figure out how to make art. They're not my art. And I think it's hard for people to hear sometimes because the books mean something to them. And they mean a lot to me.

Well, it's a different type of art for you. It's not...

It has art in it, but it's not like, for me, it's not art. It's a book. It's attempting to do something. It's attempting to be... It's a package. It's attempting to do something for the reader.

Well, it's a helpful packaged piece of art.

Okay, that's fine. I think it's a book. I mean, I love books.

A book is a piece of art. I feel like a book is art. in my mind, because the way you package, the way you write it, the way you design it, the way you envision an idea in people's minds is artistic.

It sure can be. I mean, a book can be.

And yours has art in it. Yours has got to draw it, you know?

Yeah. But what I'm trying to say is I set out to be. Well, and I didn't set out to be a self-help author, to be quite honest. I mean, you want to write fiction. Yeah. I mean, I started out, I wanted to be Kurt Vonnegut or I wanted to be George Saunders or I wanted to be Linda Barry or I want to be Saul Steinberg, you know, I mean, I wanted. But one of the things that happens in your life is you realize what your skills are. And I happen to have a skill set that's very unique. I'm never going to be the best writer. We talked about this earlier. Never going to be the best writer in the room. Never going to be the best artist in the room. Never going to be the best, like, web guy in the room. Never going to be. the best reader in the room. Never gonna be the smartest guy in the room, but you add all these things up and what I do is very, you know, it's unique and it's, there's a niche for it.

What I'm hearing you say is you make a full-time living off of your skill set, not your art.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, what do I make a living off of? Book sales, speaking. I would make a living off merch if I could get off my butt and get my online store back open. you know, but it's the stuff around the actual work. It's not like the. Nobody's. I'm not getting rich off my collages or my, like, blackout poems. You know what I mean? Like, it's the stuff around the work is what I make my living with. And I do think sometimes it would be easier if I did have a day job, because then I could just, you know, you always. Everybody wants to. I was talking to my friend James Flynn the other day, and he's a filmmaker in LA. And he was joking about, there's a clip with Dave Chappelle where Chappelle's talking about how every comedian wants to be a musician, and every musician wants to.

Be a comedian, and every athlete wants to be a singer.

Right. Everybody wants to do something else. They think like, oh, that'd be really great, you know? I think part of maturity is just being okay with like, this is what I do. So like this is what I do. I just do this weird thing.

So you were able to make a living from not your art, but taking your art and packaging it into a different skill set that people needed and were willing to pay for.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all, actually. What I'm saying is that there was a byproduct of making that art. that was more interesting to people than the actual art itself.

Interesting.

So my explorations of the life of my, the process was more interesting to people than the product.

That's interesting. The process, not your actual work.

Right. Of trying now, that wasn't, that's not always true. I mean, sometimes people like my art. and, and, but the majority of people, I would say, come to me because they're interested in my way of thinking about creative work. They're interested in me as a sort of like giving them ideas about how they can go about their own practice. But also, I'm kind of a magpie of, I mean, I just, I look at a lot of different things, and I think I'm able to talk about it in a way that's really accessible to people. So I'm always pointing people towards interesting things that can be helpful for their work, you know. So it's really the work around the art that I think people are really interested in. And then, you know, I use the art as sometimes I use it as like, it's not decoration, but it's almost like an illustration. you know, my own art becomes like the illustrations for the stuff.

You remind me of my brother a little bit. He's the number one jazz violinist in the world and he was making a full-time living touring as a jazz violinist, which is probably, I don't know, three to five people jazz violinists making, you know, over 100 grand a year in the world or something. It's a very niche piece of art. skill. And he traveled 200 days a year and was hustling nonstop to play in pubs for 20 people and all this stuff and schlepping CDs back in the day and just trying to do the thing and make money as an artist. And it was hard. And he spent, I watched him spend 20 years doing this and never really break through past a certain level every year. No matter how much harder he worked, no matter how much better he got, it was challenging. And maybe some things could have broken in different ways or could have opened up other doors, whatever, but he did the work. He showed up as an artist. And in the last year, specifically, in the last few years, he's been more of teaching people the process. Okay, here's how to be a creative artist and make a full-time living. And here's what you can do to sell yourself. And here's how you can package yourself. And here's how you can kind of coaching people. And he's making more money teaching the process of his art, of his artistry for other creative string players than he was playing. He was making pretty good amount playing, but it's like the process. People want to know, how'd you do this for 20 years?

Yeah. It's so funny though, because this is not a new phenomenon. Like people forget that Bach and those guys had to teach. Like they couldn't just make a living off of composition. Now Bach, I mean, at his church gig and stuff, but like a lot of those old musicians had to take on pupils, rich pupils specifically, because that's like how they made their living. And it's funny, like the old poets are great for this, like poets never make any money. They've never made any money and they still don't make money, unless you're like maybe Billy Collins or something. I don't, I don't know. I don't know who sells a lot of, maybe that Instagram guy. I forget her name. Rupi.

Rupi core. Yeah. Yeah. She's crushing. Yeah.

But that's not the way.

Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, so, like. But, like, Auden talked about, like, you can make a lot more money talking about poetry than writing poetry, you know? I mean, that was, like, 70 years ago or something. So it's always sort of been true that it's a little bit more lucrative, you know, teaching can be more lucrative than. Than the actual. doing.

And how do we, you know, stealing like an artist, what is the true way to steal like an artist in your mind? Whether you're an athlete stealing someone else's move, whether you're a writer, you're a documentary filmmaker, business owner, what do you think is the true way to steal like an artist without insulting someone or taking something from someone but making it your own?

Well, the best way is to not get caught. And the way that you do that is that you, it's like a good heist, you know, you plan it meticulously. And I mean, it's really not about, there's a honor amongst thieves. And what it is is it's literally thinking of It's thinking about things in terms of the collective, not just the individual. What you're trying to do is you're trying to find people out there that have the stuff that you can use, that unlocks things in you, that then you can create things that are new, that sort of make the whole thing rise, that everyone around you kind of rise. So it's like, that's what Kobe was talking about when he was like, you know, I'm, I'm trying to just take from these guys that came before me, and I'm trying to do better so I can bring the game to this new place. It's, it's a, it's a, it's an honor thing, and it's about not just, it's a holistic thing, too. It's not just stealing. I mean, one of my favorite lines is from a guy that nobody's ever heard of, Wilson Mizner. He said, you know, if you steal from one writer, it's plagiarism. If you steal from 100, it's research. You know, so it's like, you know, you don't want to just steal one person's move. You want that guy's hands. You want this guy's legs. You want this, you know, you're like Frankenstein-ing, monstering these pieces, but then you're like becoming this new thing that nobody's seen before. and you're trying to do it in a way that feels smooth and not stolen. And that's where you like the don't get caught thing, you know, or if you do get caught, it's so good people are like, you know. But it's just about like...

So it's not about stealing from one person and copying that. It's stealing from multiple people together.

Lots of people transforming it into something of your own. So imitation is not flattery, it's transformation that's flattery. It's about taking out of the gumbo pot, stewing up your own mix, and then adding back to it, you know? And so it's just, it's, it's, and a lot of it's about private practice. I think one of the problems that a lot of creative people have now is it's too easy to share what you make. So it's very easy for students, for example, to share their, like, assignments or whatever. And it's like, hey, I copied this person's. It's like, well, that's great that you did that, but you should probably burn that or keep it in your Sketchbook and, like, make something else off of it. You know what I mean? It's just that. That thing. But it's just about being like. I also think, you know, if you're open with your process, you know, you don't have to really worry about it. If you could show people how you did what you did and it didn't feel like a cheat.

By showing your work.

Yeah, if you could show your work.

And it's like, I got this from this person, I got this from this person, I got this from these six people.

And yeah, but if you could just say, well, I found this obscure comic by this guy who sent me something and I just redrew it. People always know. I mean, and it's, yeah, I think it's an honor thing. It's about like, are you actually making something new? I think people so one thing that I think people people get steel like, I mean, the problem is, is when you have a million people read a book, you get a million different books. I mean, this is true no matter what. And I think, you know, for me, Steel Like an Artist was a book that was actually a fairly conservative book in the good sense of the term, not like, not in a political sense. It was in the sense of what it means to be a student, what it means to acknowledge what has come before you and what's around you and to find your place in that and to take from all that stuff and then try to put forth something new. You know, that to me is really what Steel Like an Artist is about, is about being a really good student. And that is what I think all the books are sort of in the background. They're about You know, if I thinking about creative work in terms of as long as you're learning something, you're always moving forward, you know, as long as you're studying and you're, you know, you're learning something, that's how you stay on the edge, right? Of your abilities.

I'm curious, how often do you put out work that you're not proud of, whether it be a blog post or a book or a tweet? how often are you like, eh, just doing it to do it, but I'm not. Yeah.

I would say the only time I've ever done that is, is like, I don't know that I put work that I'm not proud of. I mean, I try really hard not to do that. Maybe I'm trying to think what merch we've done that I've been like, well, it's interesting, you know, when we did a journal, so. we did a steal like an artist journal in 2015, and I was real. I was like, these prompted journals. I really don't like them myself. Carrie Smith owns this. She's amazing. She does this really well. I'm not sure I want to do this, but it was one of those things where the money was there, and you're like, okay, but the thing for me is that in the process of making that thing, I can't. do work I'm embarrassed by, so I'll make it good somehow, you know? And that was a real learning experience for me. It's sort of like, it was like, okay, maybe I don't like this genre necessarily, but maybe I have something, maybe I can make it good. Maybe I could do it a way that I would feel okay with. And really, I mean, that's sort of self-help in general. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of self-help to begin with. So even though I think every book is self-help, in a sense.

It's all telling a story.

And it's all people pick up books because they want their lives to be a little bit better. You know, that's a real basic thing otherwise. Or they want to go somewhere else. Yeah, but non-fiction essentially is about tell me something about the world I don't know. Or give me a different way of. And really, you know, if you think about the best art, the best art is. Show me a way of seeing, show me something in the world I've never looked at or show me a way of looking that I wouldn't have come around to on my own. And so sometimes, you know, the container is just the container and what you fill it with is that's you. And so, yeah, for me, it's like sometimes I take projects that I'm not super proud of, but then I make them into something. if that makes sense. Got it.

Yeah, that does work out.

I'm not proud.

So if you're. If you're going private, when you're working on something, you may not be proud.

Of it, but you don't put it outside. Delete it. Yeah. Don't post it. You know, there's no sense in putting junk in the world that you're not. Now, you could put stuff you're not sure about. I don't know if this sucks. I don't know if I'm a genius or a hack here. That's great. You. That's the. That's the stuff you should put out in the air. to see what it does because it might hit. I've definitely put things out that I thought were silly or stupid. Yeah, they hit. Stupid things hit in this culture. It's a dumb culture.

I'm curious, what's the book or project you would love to put out before you die and be a hit?

Oh. Wow, that's a great question. I would love to have a book look just like my sketchbooks. I would love to do a book that really looked like my journal. And friends have sort of begged me for years, like, you just need to make the books look more like your sketchbook. And the thing for books with me is I want them to be I love to be read. And the way to be read is to be readable. Right. You know, it's funny. I think about this a lot with best sellers. People talk about best sellers and what it, what it takes to be this, to do that. And I'm like, well, I'll tell you one thing that every best seller has in common. Other, unless it's like a memoir by a political person. I'm talking like a word of mouth.

Yes.

At best seller. They all have this in common. They're easier to keep reading than they are to put down. They're just, it's just a joy. And every bestseller that I've read over the past couple of years, it's been interesting. I always pick up like a bestseller every year, just something that I probably wouldn't necessarily read. One year it was Tara Westover's Educated. One year it was Sally Rooney's Normal People. last year, it was. I would have read this book anyway, but it was cast by Isabelle Wilkerson. And each one of those books has different. It. It has different cultural significance. They're all great. The content's all good. But the one other thing. The one thing that. That unites all of them is they just. They're. Oh, baby, just. You're turning pages, you know? Like whether it's Sally Rooney or educated or cast I was just like just turning pages and that's that's that's what unites a word about bestsellers. It's like you want to turn the page that is what the writer is supposed to do it gets he you know, she gets you to turn the.

Page I'm curious okay, so when are you gonna put that out? Even if it doesn't, how do you make it page turnable?

And I mean, you know, I figure I'll figure it out at some point. I have a book that I'm working, you know, I have such patience now. I mean, I guess if I was diagnosed, which I guess we all are in a sense.

I mean, you can't, we're all dying.

You can't, yeah, you can't like, you know, you can't assume you have that much time. But I, the other thing, and I'm trying to get people to understand this with me is I'm like, I own my own media. Like, if I want to do something like that I really like, I just put on my blog and anyone can see it. It like I could do anything. I could do a, I could do a drawing, I could do a movie, anything I want to do. I just put it on the blog and anyone can read it. And there's such a beautiful, I have a direct connection to people that way. the books are not that. The books are crystallizations of thought in certain moments in time packaged. They have an ISBN and a barcode on the back of them, and they're supposed to do something, and they're supposed to last throughout time. They're supposed to be like objects that will kind of endure for a while. And when I'm making them, they have that very specific purpose. So if I want the juice of making something really wild and just putting it out there, I've got my website for that. Right. And having that balance of like your own media versus the media that's like, oh, you get a publisher to pay you money for it, and then they have a big ad campaign and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, all that machinery is fine, but like, I mean, the DIY of the web for me, Just, oh, you know, that is really good. And honestly, if I was going to do that sketchbook book like I was talking about, I mean, I just self publish it. Right. You know, so we'll see.

I love it, man. What is a, what is a question you wish more people asked you that you never get asked?

I'm shocked when I, when I used to go to readings, which we know no one's been to on an age, I'm shocked that people just don't ask what I'm reading. where I'm, you know, I, I never, I, I'm, I'm always like, whenever I've been at a reading with a writer and I get a chance, I stand up and ask them what they're reading. I mean, just, it's the first thing that comes in my mind. Like, what are you reading? Barely anyone asks me. What I'm reading could be because I tell everyone what I'm reading because it's on my blog and everybody knows, and they're like, well, we don't care. We've seen what you're reading, so.

Well, what are you reading, then?

Weird stuff. I'm reading about, like, I'm reading this book by Gaston Bachelard called the Poetics of Space. I'm working on a book about sort of like home life and creative work and kids and stuff. And so I'm thinking about the house and how houses can be more creative spaces. And so I'm reading that. I mean, that's kind of obscure philosophy book. I'm reading a I thought about owls because I have an owl living in the palm tree behind my house. A street owl. Yeah, so I'm reading about owls and palm trees. I'm reading a really, really good essay collection by this guy named Brian Doyle, who died a couple of years ago. He was a Catholic writer. I think he was, he wrote these really short, choppy essays sort of about like his kids and God and all kinds of stuff. It's very good. I'd never heard of him before. so, yeah, that's what I'm reading right now. I like to read a lot of different stuff at the same time, and then all the stuff kind of talks to each other, you know, and something comes out of that. That's great. I love it. And. And I. A really easy thing. It's always interesting to me because when you talk to someone in person, you're like, what TV are you watching? Because everybody's watching TV. So you could always, I'm always like, yeah, just ask me what I'm into and then we can start. Then you can tell me what you're reading and, you know, that's cool.

I like it, man. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical situation where it's your last day on earth many years from now. You get to pick the day whenever you want to die, but it's that time. and you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish. You've written all the books, you've done the things in your family, your life, everything you've wanted to do, you've created, put it in the world, manifested, given back, all that stuff. But for whatever reason, all your work has to go with you. All your creativity, your blog, your books, no one has access to your content anymore. It goes with you to the next place. But you get a piece of paper and a pen before you turn the lights out and you get to write down three things you know to be true from your experiences in life. Three lessons that you would share with the world. This is all we would have to remember you by. What would you say are those three things?

And it has to be. It's not like the most important truths. It's just my work summed up in three things.

It's. It's three. The only three things you could share with the world that you leave behind.

Zoned out from it. Yeah. What? I would like. Well. what about what so and so said?

Any lesson, it could be from someone else's lesson you like, it could be your own idea, but three things that you would leave behind as lessons to the world.

You are the sum of what you let in and out of your life. So that would be number one. That's still like an artist. That's that what you Take in is what you will put out. I think that that to me is the big. So like build your own family tree. Take it all in like you are the sum of your influences. Number two would be something that Kenny Goldsmith said that I have sort of adopted as my own is small things, something small every day. gets big over time. So little bits and pieces of effort, daily chunks of effort stack up into months, into years, into bodies of work. And number three, I think would be be kind. The world needs better human beings. It doesn't necessarily need Better artists.

Those are powerful.

I think those are the three, I would say. I think be kind is pretty much. And notice I didn't say be nice. And still like an artist, I say be nice. That's too Midwestern to me. I would say now, knowing what I know about the world, I would say be kind. Kindness isn't necessarily being nice. Kind is a different thing. I would say be kind.

A lot of nice people from Ohio, that's for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Midwest or nice is a very particular thing, as is Texas nice, actually. Yeah, you know, but being kind, that's a whole different thing, for sure. What did I say? So I said, you're the sum of your influences. Something small every day. Small things get big over time. And be kind. The world is a small town.

Very true. And you have a trilogy, an audio trilogy called Steal Like an Artist Audio Trilogy that's on Audible right now.

It's my three most important books wrapped up in one easy audiobook.

And people can get that right now. They can go to your website, austinkleon.com and check that out.

That's right. Or anywhere you get your audiobooks, just type my name in, it'll come up.

And it's your voice, right?

It is my voice recorded in my bedroom during a pandemic in Texas.

So people can check this out. It's different than the physical book, obviously. It's a different experience.

It is. It's interesting. I think it's, depending on what you're going for, it's more straightforward than the books because there's nothing really to distract you from the message. It's just a linear your eyes not darting around to the, it's less of a bathroom read experience. You know, people tell me, oh, yeah, I love your books, and then they get a little sheepish and they're like, I keep them on the back of the commode. And I'm like, that is a huge compliment to me. Yeah. In fact, that is where I want to be because everyone goes there. But the audiobook's a little bit more streamlined, which is interesting to me. I think it brings out different messages. messages. I like doing it. It was fun.

Yeah, that's great, man. Steal Like an Artist audio trilogy. You guys can get it right now. You also have your newsletter that comes out weekly, which I highly recommend, austinkleon.com/newsletter. So, check that out and all the other cool things you have going on with your books. I think people should just get your books in general because they're easy to read and consume but also such powerful, you make the complex simple in an easy to understand way. So I recommend everyone checking those out. And you're also on social media, Austin Cleon everywhere. Where else can we support you?

Just go to austin cleon.com and poke around. That's my world.

There you go.

That's the thing to do. It's my home base. Been there for 15 years. I'll probably be there for another 15 years hopefully.

So, love that, man. Well, congrats on everything. I want to acknowledge you before I ask the final question. I want to acknowledge you for giving people permission to be more creative and put their work out in the world. I think you've created an incredible movement with your work, with your blog, with your newsletter, and your books to give people the inspiration, the encouragement, the push they need to say, okay, I can do this. I can put this out there. I can not be so afraid. And I think the world needs more people to express their creativity, whether they make money from it or not, they need more people to have that encouragement. And you've been doing that for a long time. So I really acknowledge you for the gift you bring to the world in your unique way in helping so many of us. And I have my final question for you is what is your definition of greatness?

Oh, man, greatness. My definition of greatness. I don't know, it's weird because I don't think about greatness a lot. Greatness seems beyond, greatness seems like you'll know it if it comes from someone else. I don't know. I would never think of myself as great. I'm really whiffing this. I just think greatness is probably on an individual level. It's probably your days looking the way you want them to look. I feel like that's. Well, that's at least my definition of success. That's not greatness. I think greatness is probably just a sense of being expansive, a sense of being a part of something bigger than yourself. I think that's real greatness. It's either building something beyond yourself. kind of spreading your tentacles out in the world or creating your own world. But just knowing that you're a piece of a bigger whole, I would say that to me is real greatness. It's a sense of expansiveness.

My man, Austin Kleon, my Ohio friend. Appreciate you very much. Thanks for being here, man.

Ohio Boys Unite.

That's it.

Thank you for having me. This was really fun. Cool. goals are externally focused. Meaning, if you say my goal is to be a millionaire, that isn't up to you. It's only partly from you and the rest of it is luck. And so if you're going to say I'm a good person because I'm lucky and I'm a bad person because I'm unlucky, now you're really in trouble.