The Narcissism Therapist: #1 Sign You Were Raised by Narcissistic Parents!

People will always ask me, Am I a narcissist? And I'll go, Do you ever feel guilty? A narcissist is not gonna feel that guilt. What have they done wrong? They're always right. Why would they apologize? You made them do it.

Oh my gosh.

Or they did it for your good.

Jerry is a life and relationship counselor. For 40 years he has been a professional in psychotherapy and family therapy and now in life coaching. Please everyone welcome Jerry Wise.

So many people grow up under the family trance. They don't understand the dysfunction of their family because it's been normalized. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And many will go, Don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself versus wait a minute. Let's get mom and dad out of the way. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. So let's start now.

What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

Let's then take a look at that.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest today. We have the inspiring Jerry Wise in the house and a quick bio about Jerry. He's the leading expert in healing from Family and relationship dysfunction through self-differentiation. You've been doing this work for over 45 years as a therapist and a coach. And you've helped thousands of people worldwide break free from dysfunctional family patterns and discover their true selves. And this could possibly be one of the most powerful conversations we have here. I'm not just saying that, even though we've done this show for 12 years, because in my mind, we've talked a lot about narcissism and relationships and narcissism, but we haven't covered if you have experienced life with a narcissistic parent and the clear signs of if your parents were narcissistic or on the spectrum in any ways and how that impacts you for everything in your life. And so I'm curious if we could start Jerry with What are the clear signs that you could start reflecting and asking yourself if one of your parents were narcissistic in any way?

One of the things certainly that I found is that so many people grow up under the family trance. And so the family trance, they don't understand the dysfunction of their family because it's been normalized. and I've used the term malignant normalcy because then if I grew up abused and I'm in an abusive relationship, I've normalized the abuse as not something I like, but I will accept or it's kind of normal, it's what, but that's a malignant normalcy. That's not a normalcy you want to have. And so, when people, when I think about helping people see, and really that's what my work is about. It's to help people see outside the box and to see in a broader way so much of all the dynamics that are going on within the family. And if you have a narcissistic family, or there's all kinds of other dysfunctional families too, There are some universals that go along with that. But when you say a narcissistic family, I think when you start to recognize, hey, they've always been controlling, they lack empathy, they guilt and shame, they could be abusive, but they don't have to be abusive to be narcissistic. They love you and they have a plan for your life. and I say love in a, in with air quotes that we used to say that in religious circles, God loves you and he has a plan for your life. Well, the narcissist loves you and they have a plan for your life and you better follow it. Wow.

Or else.

Or else. And the narcissist will be very self-absorbed everything is basically about them that it always comes back to them. That's the whole focus. and if you have parents who have some of those type of traits, there are other traits, but some of those, people will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? Oh yeah, all the time. Then you're not.

You're just dysfunctional.

You're just dysfunctional. No, right. A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. They don't feel, what have they done wrong? They're always right. So that why would I feel guilt about anything or shame? So if you felt that, you're probably less likely to be a narcissist. But a parent can be a narcissistic parent. They can abuse you, they can criticize you, but they'll never go, oh, that my bad.

They want to apologize.

I don't want to do that. why would they apologize? You made them do it, you made them do it, or they did it for your good. So why would I ever need to say, I'm sorry. There's no need to say I'm sorry.

What's the worst thing a parent could do then to their kids over and over again that will almost surely make them dysfunctional as an adult? Is it never apologizing to them when.

You know, they... That's too symptomatic. That's too superficial. The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional as an adult is to not break their own cycle from their own past, bringing that cycle to their current nuclear family. and not knowing it.

So bringing the generational trauma onward.

And the generational programming and the generational emotional Wi-Fi that's been going on and they just bring that right into here, that's gonna mess them up more than ever. Now, does abuse and narcissistic meanness, do all those things affect the kid? Of course it does.

Screaming and all this stuff, yeah.

Exactly, of course it's going to, but it's not the screaming that's the underlying problem.

That's a symptom of that.

That's a symptom of how the family has been dysfunctional and toxic. And it can come out in different ways, narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, workaholism, sex addiction. It can come out in gambling and all kinds of symptomatic ways. But underneath all of that is an enmeshment to a family whose trance has never been broken. Wow.

The origin family.

The origin family. It's never been broken. And now you're just living it out. Only John's living it out that way, Mary's living it out that way. But that's the underlying important dynamic.

And if we don't break the trance of the family, the origin family of ours, if we don't break that trance, then we're just going to relive that pattern in our adult relationships as well.

Well, in some way. and it may not even look like the way Mom and Dad did it, but the pattern's still there. So people will go, well, I'm not like my parents. Oh, oh, hold on just a second. Let me ask you, but what you're doing is the same theme and it has origins in your family of origin. You may have chosen the opposite, but 180 degrees from unhealthy is unhealthy. So people go, oh, well, I'm all the way over here. Oh, now you're just a Class B unhealthy, or a Class A unhealthy person, and you feel superior over them because you're over here. You haven't broken the cycle. You're living the pendulum life.

Yeah, I'm not screaming at my partner.

I'm not screaming at my partner like they did. But I'm controlling, but I'm being controlling, and I still may be self-absorbed or judgmental, or, any number of other kinds of things.

Interesting. Here's the real question then. If we start to think about, oh, maybe my parents had some narcissistic tendencies and I'm starting to think about it and I'm starting to evaluate my childhood and realize, oh, I thought this was just normal because it's the only thing I knew.

How many families did we grow up in? Yeah, right?

And it wasn't as bad as that family, so I got to be grateful for this.

Yeah, and we should.

And my parents were loving at times and they gave us and they were doing the best they could so that I can't think of them as narcissistic. But we start to internalize that. What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

Let's then take a look at that. Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, hyper critical and judgmental. Now, I then grow up and say, I'm not going to be like that, but what am I to myself? Hypercritical and judgmental. So an adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hypercriticalness, very hard on themselves. So they just take the voice from here and just live it inside themselves. Really? Everything is that way. People go, oh, well they screamed all the time. So many times I've said, so how many times have you internally screamed at yourself? I don't scream at other people. I didn't say other people. I said, you, oh, well yeah, I can be pretty nasty to me. you know, you stupid, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I said, you,'re just reliving this only in a different way. And so it's all embryonic in the family. So everything that's happening out here, the problem, and that's what I think, that's why I use the term, the problem is the solution is not near the problem. Also, the problem may not be near the symptom. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And narcissists, adult children narcissists can definitely hate themselves because they've been judged and criticized and, you know, emotionally hurt so many different ways. shamed. And so this is what they're doing out here. And they're now doing this as adults to themselves internally and going, well, what's the solution? And many will go, don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself, which is not bad advice, but it's superficial advice and it may not hold. And then you'll try it and then give it up. and you'll try it and give it up versus, wait a minute, let's get mom and dad out of you.

Wow.

That's what we want to do. And do you recognize that's not you. When you are criticizing yourself that way, you're going to be under the hypnosis and the trance that this is me doing it to me. And I go, let me give you some good news. It's not you doing it to you. It's your family still doing it to you through you. There's a difference and that's a huge difference.

And so as adult children, what should we be thinking about if we felt like we had a dysfunctional childhood? So we'd be thinking about how do I get myself to be self differentiated from my parents and my family How do I block my family completely? How do I heal the past? Like, what should we be thinking about as we come into awareness as adult children of dysfunctional childhoods or narcissistic parents?

And I think it's a great question. But your question also has within it a certain paradigm, as all questions do. Every question has the answer in it. Every question that someone asks, the answer is in their question. And so you were asking about, so do I separate myself from my family? Do I, you know, and certainly if someone, if families are abusive and toxic and have no interest in changing, well then we have to look at some no contact or, you know, we may need to go that far. But self-differentiation, what I tend to think when someone has a family that's narcissistic, Does the person that I'm working with or talking to, or the adult child of the narcissist, need greater self-differentiation, which is an emotional state and a maturity state, or do they need to physically separate? If you physically separate, you still need to emotionally separate.

It doesn't solve the problem.

It doesn't solve the problem. Now, but I don't want you there being abused and being taken, There's common sense to this as well. But self-differentiation is the, do you have the maturity and respect for yourself that if you had grown up in a healthy family, this is the way you'd be. That's self-differentiation. And people go, well, how can I do that? I didn't grow up in a healthy family. It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

Really?

So let's start now. Wow. And are you going to take care of yourself or are you not? And adult children or narcissists don't know how to take care of themselves. They've never even been told that's a good thing to do. Many of them would say, well, my church or my whatever teaches me I should not do that because that's selfish. And I go, no, no, that's not what they're teaching. or I don't know, they may be teaching that, certainly possible. But that's not what that isn't what self-care is about. Self-focus is healthy. We've grown up with no self-focus and only focused on the others in the family. Now we want to do self-focus, which means inner boundaries, where when you say, well, Jerry, you're, you know, You're such a bad son and I just think you're worthless. And inside I go, so what? And because you are you and I am me. If we are too enmeshed, then what you said will drive me crazy.

And then I'll try to overcompensate.

Overcompensate.

Approval or whatever. Yeah.

I'll try to be reactive. I'll get mad. I'll say, that's the way you've always treated me. Why don't you stop treating me that way? You've always been this way and da, da, da, versus, okay. I see that's how you feel. I don't feel that way about me. But it's okay if you do. I mean, you have a right to feel that way about me if you want. I don't care. I hope it helps you out. I don't know.

Why is it so hard as adult children to break the family trance though? of conditioning from parents guilting or you need to come visit me more or why don't you call me more or you're not doing this more or whatever.

Our fantasies. We're still children. I want the parent to love me. I want them to accept me. I want them to take care of my needs. I've always wanted a parent who would care. and I'm not ready to give up that fantasy.

Oh, man.

And if I could help someone give up those fantasies, they'll grow like nobody's business. Really? Oh, they just go.

It's the fantasy that holds us back.

That's part of it, yes. The trance and what we've learned is normal. And then there's the fantasy of When you don't get it growing up, then you will always be looking for it. I want you to come to me and we work out, me helping you to stop looking for it.

Stop looking for what? A beautiful like childhood or whatever.

Beautiful childhood. My parents love me. They need to treat me right. Maybe someday they'll accept me. Maybe it's not, it's a fantasy. It is a fantasy. And fantasies mess up adulthood. Goals don't mess up adulthood, but fantasies do. And emotional fantasies. Sure, sure. And there's creativity in fantasies and things. But this fantasy of, I'm gonna have a happy childhood. I'm trying to have a happy childhood, but every time I go back at Christmas time or the holiday time, it always ends up being a mess.

They just judge me, or they never go.

And they judge me and they do the same thing. I try to be nicer. and I bring more food or I bring the kids or whatever they're trying to do to get this so that their parents will one day go, you are okay.

So what should adult children stop trying to do with their parents?

Stop needing them as parents?

Really?

When does parenting end?

Good question. I don't know.

18?

Is it supposed to end though? at 18 for everyone.

Aren't you going to be an adult?

That's the goal.

Adults don't need a parent.

But some people live with their parents till they're 30.

Adults may wish or want to have mothers and fathers. I'm not saying break up your whole family because you turned 18. I'm talking about parenting. Parenting is parent to child. not parent to adult. Of course there are exceptions. Of course there are people with disabilities or problems. I understand there's all kinds of variations. But generally, if I tell people, I go, and what do you need your parent to do? Well, I need them to treat me. And I'm going, why do you need to treat them? Why do you need them to treat you better? Why? Well, I'll never be happy if I... There you are. You've just hooked together. You'll never be happy unless this fantasy comes true. And I can already tell you it's not going to come true because it's been going on for 35 years. And I doubt if your parents are going to just one day go, you know, could miracles happen? Of course miracles can happen. But I'm not in the miracle business.

Yeah.

So if they do, they do.

It's interesting because the people watching and listening right now, if you're listening, if you're watching this right now, I want you to leave a comment below and say if you had a happy, like if your parents loved you, supported you, approved of you most of the time, comment below, happy childhood. If you feel like your parent, you could never get the approval of your parents, they were never satisfied with you, they're always judging and critical of you. Type in challenging childhood in the comments below. And I'm curious, what is the pro and con of having a healthy relationship with your parents versus an unhealthy relationship with your parents, wanting them to approve and love you as adults? Right.

Well, that's because then yourself, won't develop. You are living a pseudo self, waiting on them to give you a self by them going, you,'re wonderful and we love you. And the thing is, the same is true if parents have caused trauma. Once you become an adult, they can no longer fix that for you. Ever. They could say, I'm sorry. They could say, they could be remorseful. But I keep telling clients or coaching people, they can't fix it. This is now yours to fix. Whatever they did is now yours to fix, not theirs to fix.

Even if they do apologize, it still may not solve the problem. Yeah, you don't have to fix it still.

Exactly. How does that fix it? Right. And so they always go back, I'm going to confront them and tell them, and you're just gonna get caught up in the system even deeper.

Really?

You're gonna go down in the quicksand even more if you go do that. And I always tell people, the time to confront people is when you don't need to. If you need to, you're probably out of sync.

Really?

Yeah. So, not that we can't confront some people, or I gotta confront if they're not giving me my coffee, and I gotta, but generally I'm talking about this.

Emotional you know, it's interesting that you say that. I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And I've talked about it openly on this show many times. But for those that are here the first time, it was something that haunted me for 25 years. For 25 years, I held on to it. I felt shame, I felt sadness, I felt anger, rage, all these different things. And it was a movie that played in my mind over and over again for 25 years. and it drove me without even knowing it unconsciously to protect myself, to defend.

Myself, to- Not trust.

Yeah, not trust. If someone's trying to take advantage of me, I'm gonna get big and strong and all these different things. And I need to be right and I need to win. And in some ways it helped me accomplish certain goals, but left me feeling very empty as well.

Bad things have bad things have downsides, good things have upsides, good things have downsides.

All. But 25 years later, where it was too much, it was too much and it all kind of came out, right? It came out at one point after about a year of just breakdowns continuing to happen, where it forced me to look within and stop blaming everyone else of like, why is these things happening in my life? and it got to a point where I said, okay, I'm actually gonna dive deeper and start working on myself and start unpacking things from childhood and start really reflecting on these things. And I went to workshops, therapy, coaching, all the different things. And it got to a point where I finally opened up and talked about it in a safe environment. And then I started talking about it and letting my. My family know, some of my friends, and started talking about it publicly. and I don't think everyone should talk about their stuff publicly, but I had a platform. I felt the need to, I felt pulled to, I felt inspired to. And there came to a point where maybe it was a couple years after I started to process and heal that journey and self-regulate the memory and self-differentiate from that wound where I was like, do I need to confront this person? And I don't even know where the person is. I don't know. where the person is or if they're alive or not. But I was like, what's that gonna do for me? I got to a point where I was like, I don't need to and I'm at peace with it.

But what should I do about that?

Yeah, but I didn't feel like I need to confront this to finish the job of my healing. I was like, this is my work to do. And no matter what this person would say, it's not gonna help me.

What would be the positive outcome of that? You can if you want, but I'm just trying to think, what's the utility of it? if it provides some something, okay. But I don't know that I would go through all the try to find them and confront them.

Unless it's a family member that you want to talk about something.

Or right, some ongoing relationship or something. Right.

This is something interesting you said. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. If we had a horrible childhood and we're in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and we just think, man, my childhood was miserable. It's challenging. I don't have many good memories. How can you have a good childhood as an adult if all you had is bad memories as a child? Women's health affects more than women. In fact, research from the World Economic Forum and McKinsey suggests that closing the women's health gap could boost the global economy by $1 trillion annually by 2040. Join Dr. Jen Ashton, and her guests as they examine the women's health gap through specific topics like maternal health, menopause, heart disease, and more. Listen to the new season of the Visibility Gap, a podcast presented by Cigna Health Care.

Great question. When do you stop being a child?

When you become a parent, when you grow up, when you remove yourself from the parents.

When do you stop having a child inside you?

Never?

So you start your childhood now by.

You becoming the parent to yourself?

Self-parenting, re-parenting. And now I'm going to ask myself, what would you like to go do to play? Because just like with a tree, a tree starts out with a little branch and grows up to be a big tree, but the little tree hasn't gone away. I mean, it's still in there. It's still a part of the growth. And we're the same way. It's called our inner child. And the inner child we have all the rest of our lives. And many people actually, because of their family of origin, abuse their inner child because that's what happened when they grew up. And so they parent themselves. the way their parents parented them. And that's the whole story of connectedness. Parents parent you, you parent you, and that we continue on.

And you parent your kids.

And then you parent your kids and then adjust. So if you can get your insides straightened out, generations will be grateful.

Wow.

To you, and I literally mean generations, because it probably took about five generations to get to here, this dysfunctional, probably five to get here, you can change the world if you change you. And even now, I still work on my self-differentiation. I have a 39 year old son, and I do that because I want to have as good a relationship as I can have with him. Because whatever issues I leave unresolved for me, who gets to resolve them?

Him. Wow. I saw a clip of an interview online of someone, a really successful billionaire entrepreneur, probably in his 70s, and he said the key to success in life was having adult children that still want to hang out with you, not because of your money or your success, but.

Because you're a good guy.

Yeah, exactly.

Good person.

Yeah.

And, and that's why. Right. It's not about this is my property as the kids. They're not my property. And I would like to have a relationship where now whenever, when I hug Andrew, I can give him a kiss on the, on the neck. and I even asked him and I told him, if you don't want me to do that, I won't. You're an adult.

Yeah.

I don't want to embarrass you. He said, my friends just think it's fabulous. They wish their dad would do that.

Right, right.

And so, because I felt that's what I wanted to do, but I would give him permission to be him. I mean, I'm not gonna do something you don't want me to do.

Wow. What I'm hearing you say is that the key, the key to setting up your family legacy to have the best or the healthiest lives they can have is to start by healing the child within you.

Healing the child within you and self-differentiating the adult within you. So we have both those works.

Okay, let's break down both. What would be the... And healing the child within you is not a an overnight thing. What would be the keys to whether someone says, I don't need to work on my inner child. That seems like baloney or just it's not, it's not for me. I do a lot of my own work already. I don't need to dive deeper into this stuff. It seems like whatever. But if they were like, let me listen to this and just see what he's talking about. What would be the first three keys or steps to addressing how to heal the inner child within us?

Well, and if they would say, I don't need to work on my inner child, I would say, now you've already told me what you don't know. Because if you don't understand that or work that way, you're going to be blinded, which is your right. I mean, I live life how you want. You don't have to do any inner child work. I'm just telling you the way human beings function, you know, and that while it is a construct or a metaphor or, you know, the inner child, it is that, but it truly is a part, we are biological, we are biological creatures and so we have that part of us. I'm never not the seventh grader. I'm never not the third grader, I'm never not a 50 year old. I'm all of those. And so, but particularly in childhood is where we get a lot of that programming going on that carries over to older ages. And so when we think about, would you know if your inner child wanted you to do something? And if you don't know, do you think that could be problematic?

Probably, yeah.

And many people will go, I don't think I want to work on inner child stuff. That's all psychological mumbo jumbo. Okay, well that's fine. I mean, you don't have to.

However.

When you are hyper critical of yourself and very down on yourself, who are you down on? The adults of? The inner child? Probably more likely the inner child, because you're going to act like your parents to the child.

Oh man.

That's just what we do. And so knowing that can be helpful because if you become a collaborator with your inner child, it stabilizes you. If you're not, then you're always fighting yourself in business, in success, in money, in jobs, in marriages, in relationships. You're always going to be fighting yourself. And if we talk long enough, I'll prove that to you. You know, I would prove that to you. Sure, sure, sure. How that's what's happening.

So when we are in conflict with ourselves or hypercritical of ourselves, whether it be our adult or inner child self, How is that hurting us or helping us?

The thing is, first of all, I might say you're not being your true self. You're being a pseudo self to yourself. You're being the family super self to yourself.

When you're acting that way.

When you're acting that way.

Interesting.

That that's not you, but you think it's you. And I'm going, it really isn't.

You're bringing the family, Trance.

Trance, Wi-Fi super self we call, 'cause all the family connects to this big super self that's all enmeshed emotionally and we even know biologically, there's a way to describe it. Yeah, of course. And that you're now not, you're not, when somebody's going, and I'm fine with being hyper critical of myself. I'm not gonna look at my inner child, but every time I hear you, being self-critical in a negative way, you know, towards yourself, I'm going, why are you not being yourself? Because would yourself do that? And they'd probably go, well, no, I wouldn't. Then where is that coming from? You know, well, it's just what I've always done. Oh, well, now we're going to all what's always been done, okay? My point.

But what's always been done doesn't mean it's the best way that you can live your life.

Exactly. And all of us have negative parts of all those things. But I want to have fewer or less. I want to have less of a pseudo self, less of a non-real self that's me. And all that hypercriticalness is being the family self. That's your family self. And I'm going, you want to be successful by being your family self and you tell me how bad that all was. You're doing it, you're repeating it right now.

Yeah, you may not be doing this to others, but you're doing it to you.

Right, right. Yeah, I don't do that to other people.

Okay.

Do you ever do it to you? Oh, well, yeah, that's how I'm successful, because I'm so critical of myself.

Yeah, it helps me be driven.

Helps me be driven and Like, that doesn't sound like a authentic self.

What do you think it is if our inner child was able to speak authentically 100% of the time and say what our inner child truly wants and desires? And it had a voice, what would our inner child be saying all the time?

I'm always so happy. that I am loved now. I'm always at peace because I'm not in conflict now. I'm always looking forward to new adventures.

Now.

Because it's life as it should be. And those kind of Statements if you're talking about the inner child talking. And thank you so much for getting the family out of you.

Interesting.

And that we can just be us. We can just be a real us.

How does someone learn how to get the family out of them? The family dysfunction out of them while also being a part of the family?

I want to learn to remain connected, which is what we call kind of emotionally connected, and I am going to be myself.

Yes, which I think a lot of people struggle with, with their parents or family.

And when somebody says, so I'm going to tell you something. I want you to go home and tell your family or your parents this holiday or whenever you're going to see them. How would you feel about doing that? like you want to change the date of when you get together for Christmas or when you, how comfort do we feel going and telling them that and this is your preference? Oh my gosh, that's going to be a mess. And this could be a president of a company who runs people all the time, but he's going to go home and tell mom and dad, I don't want to do Christmas at the same time we've always done it. Oh my, you're gonna, that's why we so become children when we go home.

Interesting.

We just, and many people will say that when I get home, I just feel like I'm back, back in junior high or I'm back in, my parents treat me this way and you know, here I am, the president of GM or whatever and they're still babying me. They're still babying me and think I'm an idiot and it bothers them. Ah. And I would help them learn for it not to bother them. That's the them, they're not you. Enmeshment is I am you and you are me. Non-enmeshment is you are you and I am me. I am not you and you are not me. And we can have a relationship. And that's a healthy relationship. Because this is not a healthy relationship. This is not a healthy relationship. This is a healthy relationship. and you need space, you need distance and space to have closeness.

Interesting.

This, you can't have closeness. You're over close. This is over distant, probably because you're over close and you can't have closeness.

That's so interesting you say this, Jerry, because, and for those that are listening, and not watching and not able to see the hand gestures. You had your hands together enmeshed versus far apart and then closer together but not touching. It's interesting because I left home at 13. Oh, wow. And I begged my parents to send me away to a private boarding school that was about seven hours away. Begged them for a summer and they did not want me to leave. But I knew my parents loved me. But I didn't feel emotionally safe in the house because of their relationship.

Right.

My father was there for me. My mother was there for me at different times, but they weren't there for each other. My, you know, again, I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know when I was five. It wasn't anyone in the family, thankfully. And then my brother went to prison when I was eight for four and a half years. My older brother, 11 years older. So that was just a challenging season of life that the family dynamic faced. And my parents just weren't, they shouldn't have been married, essentially. They were just not happy in their marriage. They did their best. They tried, but they weren't, they eventually got divorced when I was a teenager.

And I do say parents are doing the best they can 100 with the Paradigm they have been given from their origin and everything. From their origin and everything else. But I'm not excusing them. 100.

But as a 12 and a half year old, I wanted out and get me out of here. I want to be around better environment, better friends, better everything. And I went from enmeshed to, you know, as far away as I could be. And over the years, I've had to relearn how to get closer, but not, you know, not too far, but not enmeshed, but closer, because I would go months without talking and I felt safe being alone. 'cause I felt unsafe being enmeshed. And again, I knew my parents loved me and they showed up for me and they went to my games and they did the best they could. Right.

They did.

Right. But it was just like with the life experience I had, I didn't know how to navigate the emotional unsafety that I felt from their lack of love with each other and the chaos it felt like it was having. And so it was years of unlearning, of healing, of all these different things to self-differentiate from my childhood and from certain people in my family so that I could love myself and love them for who they are.

We have to accept them for who they are. And also, the other thing is, this is what I will also tell people. If you accepted your parents just the way they are, what relationship would you like to have with them? But you have to accept, well, I'd get along better if they would do-.

They changed, yeah, yeah.

They are exactly who they are and they're not going to change. What relationship do you want to have? Do you know you can do that in marital work too?

Really?

Your wife or husband's not going to change. What relationship do you want to have with him? Well, we're here so that that changes. you know, oh, so you came here to work with me to change him. Oh, well, that's, at least I know now what our goal is and what you were planning on.

Yeah, the impossible goal.

The impossible goal. And you're gonna find me to be a very inadequate coach and he's gonna fail and it's gonna be a mess.

So instead of trying to change our parent or change our spouse for what we don't like about them, what should we be trying to do instead to create a healthier relationship with them?

What if you were to, mom sits down or dad sits down or whatever, and they're at the table and you have coffee and go, you know, what was it like when you grew up? What was it like in your family? What did you like about it? What did you not like about it? I'm being a researcher. Now I've just changed emotional location with them. I'm no longer the little child who they're gonna... Now they may say, oh wow, we don't want to talk about any of that. Okay, well I just wanted to ask. I'm not gonna make them do it, but I'm now an adult. and treating them as an adult. Hey, what was it like during the war? My parents would be older and what was it like going through the depression and those kind of things? Because I've changed my emotional location, I'm no longer this little boy and they're these parents that are, now they have to talk to me like an adult. because I'm asking an adult thing and I'm asking something about them. And I've changed something that will change the dynamic. And there are many other ways to change the dynamic too, to learn how to, you know, even if it's a, well, I remember my own example of I was a pastor for many years and my father died It fell on me to give the, now who's gonna give the family prayer at the meal? Well, it's gonna be, I'm the youngest. But I was the only one who was in religious circles in that way. So it has to be me. And mom assumed it would be me. I didn't want to do it.

Really? Even though you were in the, I'm.

Not the family's pastor.

Right.

I'm Jerry. I'm not your, you,'re the youngest. I'm the youngest. I, what? Why am I, you know, because everyone just wanted to be taken away from them. So I told mom several times before the meal, I'm, I don't wish to do this. That's not my preference. And she just ignore it. Oh, no, I'll just do it anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just do it anyway and blah, blah, blah, blah, mom. And several times to prepare, because I know it's Jane. So when we got to the time, we're all standing there all around the table, she looks at me and goes, Jerry, would you like to- Did you give in? And this is one of my major steps of self-differentiation. Mom, we had discussed this several times. And one of my preferences is this is not what I wanted to do.

Ooh, rough on the feathers over here, you know.

So I just wanted to- to share that and then shut up.

And then everyone's waiting to eat. The food is out.

Everybody's going, we don't do that in our family.

So you started to break the cycle a little bit. And in criticism.

Well, our family was never the same. Really? Never the same.

Well, you lose a parent, you're gonna. I mean, it's never the same.

Right. But. But that someone would say no. Wow. And. And so Mom went ahead. gave, and then it was shared around and nobody asked me. But then I could say, Hey, I'd be happy to do that today if you'd like me to do it. Because now I'm doing it because I'm choosing it or want to. But it's not, Here's your role, you do this role, Jerry, and be happy.

So your mom, did she get upset with you when you didn't do this? Did she give you a stare?

Did she- well, yes. She gave me a look like, you don't, we don't do that.

But then you said, I'm not, I'm not, I'm gonna, I'm gonna create my boundary.

It was just to, to state my position. And then the hardest thing to do was to stay quiet.

And not apologize. And not say anything.

Stay quiet to anybody from this. Wow. Interesting. That's self differentiation in the family.

Wow.

Because I'm changing my dynamic in the family. I would have said, oh, now it's gonna be okay, or, okay, I'll do it today, but, you know, I don't want anybody to feel bad.

Wow, how old were you at this time? Do you remember roughly?

Probably in my 20s.

Oh, wow, okay. And you were the youngest of.

And I was the youngest of three. Wow. Well, and then I thought, my brother's not gonna like this, nobody's gonna like this. And look, she just lost her husband.

Oh, man.

We lost her dad, and now I'm.

Look at you being a little brat.

You know, being a little brat. All the role things that's gonna come out. And I'm going, But I can't care about that.

Wow.

That I'm not their little brat. They can think of me as a little brat.

Yeah.

They are not me. I am not them.

Wow.

I'm not a little brat. I have a purpose to, 'cause Mom always used to guilt me into shame, guilt me into singing, 'cause I did professional music and I sang and I did things like that, went to music school and Lord knows what. And, and so she, oh, Jerry, you, you have to sing for everybody.

I don't, sometimes maybe you do, sometimes you don't.

Sometimes I don't. And I'm not here to be the, the, the puppet, the monkey on a, you know, you know. Okay, Jerry, now perform. Yeah. And, and I never could say no. It was so hard.

Oh, it was just, when did you, did you finally say no or.

Well, to the family prayer was the.

Beginning of And then you started to stand for yourself.

Then I'm going, this is the new jury. Boundaries. And I'm not going to get reactive. I'm not going to be mad that mom didn't listen to me before we got there and that she would rescue me from this moment by not asking me. Cause I knew she wasn't going to rescue me from this moment. But I don't need to be mad at her. She just had her plan. I have mine.

Wow. So. It sounds like what I'm hearing you say is you can't expect to change your parents, you can't expect to change your spouse or your partner, but you can change the dynamic you have with your parents or your spouse. Exactly. And when you start to do that, you're self-differentiating from a dynamic that once was into a new dynamic.

And they can't stop that dynamic change.

They might throw off fuss.

They could throw off.

They might scream.

They might scream.

Silent treatment.

We also have three levels of resistance.

What are those?

But if you go through those three level resistance, you'll come out at a higher level. First level is Jerry, why are you saying no? He won't do this. Second stage of resistance is Jerry no, you need to be doing this. And I'll be upset if you don't. Third, do this or else. Oh, and if you can stay self-differentiated through all three levels, you'll start here, go up the levels, and end up here in the family. Not here, but here. Because they can't They can't control you at all. They can't control my dynamic of the family. They can yell and scream and do all that, but this family is now different because I'm different.

Let's go.

And I'm still connected.

Right.

If I'm not connected, then you don't have the power. The emphasis is not there. But if I'm still connected, they, they, and you could become a scapegoat. You could become, I mean, that's one of the, then we'll make you the scapegoat. And you can go, that's fine if you need to do that, and I'm going to continue to be me, and I can love you, and, you know, if that's what you need to do, then, and then we have to be patient at that time. And now they have to decide, do we want to lose him, or do we not? The burdens on them now, not on me.

Can we change to accept him?

We change to accept him. And that's their choice. That they get to decide that well.

Here's an interesting question for you. As someone who has worked with individuals and dysfunctional families for 45 plus years, coaching, therapy, all these different things, helping them heal and self differentiate, I hope to be a parent one day. And for those watching or listening who are parents, what's the best way they can set up their family to be as healthy as possible for their children to thrive and also love and accept each other and have a healthy family dynamic? Or if someone's got some older kids and they realize, oh, maybe I've done some stuff.

And many have. I don't know, too.

And they're in their teens now. How can I start to change the family dynamic so that my kids feel empowered to be themselves within the family as well?

And what I tell everybody, I understand that, and that's an excellent goal. And in fact, it's never too late. People even say, well, I'm 70 now. How can I... So, aren't you still a biological human being? I mean, you still are our cell in this whole world of the universe we have. So you're still functioning in that, so you can change. Now, some people can't change because very real limitations. And I understand even some narcissists, they're so broken because of that.

But.

You can change and that what we want to do is focus on whatever you want for your kids. you must obtain for yourself. So it's not what you teach them, it's what you be to them. That's much more powerful than anything you say.

Can you give some examples?

Well, people will say, now you need to, you ought not do that, you ought not do that. And, but the thing is, if I am mature, if I am less reactive, if I am more calm, if I am more thoughtful, if I am able to see a more clear view of how all the system works in my relationships, that comes through because of the connectedness. And that's the more powerful dynamic than all the book reading you do about how you tell people as a marriage and family therapist, people were always asking me about parental advice. And there's good advice out there. You can read tons of books on parental advice. But the thing is, if the envelope is bad, then the message in it is going to have a good message in a bad envelope. I'm talking about changing the envelope. Then you put the good message in, it's all different. Because so many just go, well, I'm gonna give them this envelope, but you're living like crap. You hate yourself and you're telling them, you need to love yourself, you need to da-da-da. Bad envelope, right message. Let's get good envelope. I'm not going to tell you to love yourself. I'm going to love myself.

Yeah, you need the messenger to be in alignment with the message.

Exactly.

Now, so it sounds like step one, if you want to be a great parent, start re-parenting yourself and healing the inner child. Step two, learn self differentiation from your own family as well.

Absolutely.

But self differentiation It starts with like these small, courageous steps. It sounds like it doesn't have to be I'm going to explode the family dynamic overnight. But it's like mom wants me to do this and she's been wanting to do it my whole life and I've always done it and I'm not going to do it anymore. Dad wants me to do this and I'm going to say, Hey, that doesn't work for me anymore. Whatever it is, it's the small resistances.

And then what I found is as you are self-aware becoming self-regulated and becoming self-differentiated those are kind of the three aware, regulated, differentiated as you're doing those three. And we can learn how to do those three, those three, that it is better for it to take longer. and be right and actually effective than to go quick fix or shorter and you go over and come back to the same spot. The other weird thing about change, and again, that's kind of been my whole thing all my life, is how do I change? And then as a professional, how do I change other people or help them change or whether I'm changing them or whatever, how? How does change work? Change also, many people go, well, that can take a while. It also can take two seconds. Yeah. And you're never the same. Now, why is that? That's a change. People will tell me that all the time that I've never been the same since that, well, that's a pretty quick change.

Yeah, I decided.

That's a pretty quick awareness that you, you had. So there's the long work and then along the work along the way, you'll have these moments of just, I'm just so different. And I think that's really a cool part of the work that I help people with.

Yeah, because one of the challenges I felt like I lived with, and I think a lot of people probably lived with when they had dysfunctional families, is trying to keep the peace. It's trying to not upset mom or upset dad or upset your siblings. It's like, do what you need to in your role to keep the peace.

That's why we have roles. Roles is to make the family continue to operate in its dysfunctional way.

But don't we need roles too? In like relationships, aren't there supposed to be roles and like how to support one another or agreements or.

That's not a role. That's a self. Myself and my values and my belief. I'm going to support you.

Gotcha.

And that's not a role I'm playing. That's my genuine belief.

So when we're playing a role, what are we doing?

Being a pseudo self. A role is a pseudo self. Golden child is a pseudo self.

Problem child.

Problem child is a pseudo self. I'm not saying they really didn't come out of a family where that was emphasized. I'm not saying it didn't really happen. But I think once you realize, you know, that's not you. You know, that's not you. I know that's the way you've lived and that's what everybody's always said, but it's really not who you are. And so with roles, I think of roles as being a pseudo self. What we want to do is to be our authentic selves.

Not a pseudo self.

Not a pseudo self. Oh, I know. You were saying you're to please. We're going to please. That's a pseudo self. And why am I Mr. Pleaser? Which I was. Absolutely was codependent, Mr. Pleaser. Oh, my gosh.

It was. why is that? To seek approval? Is it to survival?

And I think when you say seek approval, I don't know, I used to teach codependency, have codependency groups, and so I know all the symptoms of codependency and all of that. However, at the bottom line of it is it's the family's chronic anxiety, which you're not aware of, that pushes you to then go, oh, I need to get approval or I need to be pleasing. So we need to reduce the chronic anxiety so you're not doing the pleasing part.

How do you reduce the chronic anxiety of a family dynamic?

First of all, you have to recognize it. You have to recognize what's underneath your pleasing, your withdrawing, you're overcompensating, you're hyper functioning, you're under functioning. Under functioning comes because of anxiety. All of these come because of chronic anxiety. Anxiety is a bedrock of life. That's how life got started. And we have a brain that functions that way too. But we don't want to function out of our old brain. We want to function out of our new brain. All of this stuff has to do with our old brain. It's the old brain. And so you feel like you're in a room with a tiger? Well, why do you feel like you're in a room with a tiger when there's no tiger there? Because a million years ago, you needed that. You needed that anxiety. to save yourself. Now we have the experience of it, but it's not there. And so we have to learn to operate with our brain better. And so I think, and I didn't realize this, oh, being like a mascot, I was also a mascot. And so I would get nervous.

You've had many lives, Jerry.

I would get nervous and in a group or in a therapy group or a supervision group or whatever we do. And if there was tension, What would I break it with? A joke or making fun. And I was serving a function with that.

Playing a role.

I'm playing a role, but it was my anxiety I wasn't managing. I can't deal with your tension. So I'm going to be funny if I begin to learn, well, I need to let them have their tension. why do I need to rescue them from this tension with my humor? And also it doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, I can, and there's a time to reduce tension. There's, and I've done that certainly legitimately. But whatever we do, over function or under function comes out of the anxiety that we're, that we're not, most of what's happening with you, you haven't learned to understand why. You're just living your life as you should. But if I started helping you understand the underlying anxiety, you go, oh, I think you're right. That was my anxiety. Oh, that was my anxiety. And it's the chronic anxiety from over here at the family that we inherit that anxiety. and we inherit that level of self-differentiation. So if they are twos on a 10 scale, what do you think we're going to be?

Two.

Right.

In self-differentiation.

In self-differentiation. Not as, I'm not talking morally, spiritually. And so we want to work on raising that number while staying connected, and then my fullness helps them become two and a quarter. Right, right.

Barely, you're not even, barely change.

Barely.

Maybe they shift the role a little bit.

And I'm not even trying to change them. That's not my, that's not even my, but because we are connected, it's going to have an impact. Yeah, it's interesting.

You talked about inheriting the family enmeshment until we are self-aware, learn to self-regulate and self-differentiate, we're going to inherit this family dynamic, this dysfunction, it sounds like, Here's a scary question. Can you inherit narcissism from a parent if you have a narcissistic parent?

Well, that's a science question. And we don't know the cause of narcissism. Certainly we can say a narcissistic parent who is abusive and can create a narcissist. But there are so many layers of things going on from genetics, to how the body affects with environment, effects in their environment, to parenting, to family dynamics, to trans or intergenerational stuff that comes to biochemistry, and we don't have one good thing go, this causes narcissism. And there are so many people that just say, a narcissism is caused by a narcissist. that has not been my experience. Now, can narcissists have narcissists? Yes, of course they can have narcissists. But you're just painting a simplified view of it and I don't think that's accurate because there's so many dynamics that can affect someone being a narcissist. Why is someone BPD or bipolar or why is someone, you know, there's just, We're a complicated organism. And so I think it, and I don't think there's any one study that says this is what it, that would be probably irresponsible because that's not what the science.

With all of your work in, as a therapist, a family therapist, and a family dysfunctional dynamics that you've experienced and studied and supported for the last 45 years, If you were to design a narcissistic kid to grow up and be narcissistic, what would be the elements? Not that you would do this, but if you're like, hey, if you do these things and this and this and this, you might create a narcissist.

Well, there's some classic thing we think about, no boundaries, overindulging, get whatever you want. Spoiling, whatever you want. maybe throw in some abuse. I think those would be some good kind of things.

No consequences.

No consequences. Also, many times shaming does is a part of that soup that goes in there. But again, it's already baked into the cake in the families.

It was passed down already.

It was passed down already. It's already passed down. And so those would be some things I'd be less, I would not want to do with my child.

Sure.

That they do need a sense of self, but not a sense of self-absorption.

I think one that I want to ask you is, how can someone with narcissistic parents set healthy boundaries as an adult where they stay connected to the parent, but they're not enmeshed with that parent anymore. And they don't play the role that they've been playing for a long time.

The way we do that is by inner boundaries.

Inner boundaries first.

Inner boundaries first versus external boundaries. because if you build your inner boundaries first, you'll be able to hold to your outer boundaries. If you don't, those are just, they're not gonna work. You're not gonna hold them. So inner boundaries, when I think of inner boundaries, I think of learning to detach, learning to de-enmesh, learning to I am not you, you are not me, And so if I want to maintain those boundaries, you have to learn to not care.

Wow, that's tough.

And the caring part is the dysfunctional part. And it doesn't sound weird me saying caring part's the dysfunctional part, but it is. It absolutely is the dysfunctional part.

But these are your parents. They've given you so much. They've supported you your whole life.

Tell them thank you for that. Right.

Then you don't owe them anything else.

When do we stop owing our parents? When do we...

I guess 18? I don't know. Is that what you're saying? Is that the age? I don't know.

Well, I don't think... Do we ever owe them anything? No, that's the thing we're saying. That's what I'm saying.

We never owe them anything.

I didn't choose to get born. They had a child and they chose...

Right.

That was their choice. And the law says they have to take care of me and raise me. I didn't.

But it seems like there's this unspoken agreement or expectation that the child is supposed to take care of the, look at all I've done for you.

Look at all I've done for you. And I would say, I can't tell you how much I have appreciated that. And they would say, But you owe.

Me your life, I don't know.

Or you owe me to do this for you.

I mean, you're more for me. Yeah, yeah. Now you need to take care of me, 'cause I took care of you.

Right. And the thing is, me taking care of you has to do with my values, my morals, and my choices. And that I have no trouble doing that.

However.

It depends on what kind of relationship we're going to have. And if our relationship is only an evil one, then probably other means need to be worked out for your taking being taken care of.

Wow.

Yeah. Because I'm not going to, I'm not going to completely blow up my life and my emotional inner peace. I can live without family. I can't live without inner peace.

Otherwise you're just continuing the cycle of enmeshment, generational trauma, and you're showing the Next Generation how to treat each other.

And on a billboard, yes.

Gosh, but it just seems so hard for people because they're like, well, this is how it's always been.

And I, and I would never say it's not hard. And I never look at people go, oh, well, that should just be easy. And many times people say, oh, well, you just make it sound so easy. This was hard thought. Easy. This wasn't easy for me. This, there wasn't. I. No, no. and I'm not suggesting you should just be there without any struggle. However, I'm trying to give you a framework with which to work with if you didn't have to take care of your parents, would you? Or if they are narcissistic parents, which. And I'm for kids taking care of their parents. I'm. I'm not. anti-family or anti- I want families to be together. I want them to love each other. But if you have two malignant narcissists, now what kind of caregiving relationship do you want to have with them? You have to decide because you're your own agent. I mean, it can't be based on whatever they say do or then you're back to being a pseudo self.

And you're acting like a child.

And you're acting like a child and there's a parent.

And they're in control or they're pressuring you or judging you.

Well, and they'll be leading you around by the nose if they're bad narcissistic parents.

Wow.

That's going to be so. So it's that because you're going to have to live with your choices. They have to live with theirs. And in fact, they've made maybe bad choices for the last many decades. Is it your time now to make up for that? How do you make up for their bad choices over time? You can't. Decades and decades. I don't know how to do that.

Yeah.

Does that mean, and I took care of my mother. Everybody's got to decide for themselves. And also I knew if I was going to do that, I needed inner boundaries for yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

I had to have inner boundaries if I was going to do that. that it just wasn't gonna matter and, you know, well, why don't you come visit me more at the nursing home? She mentally was there, all that just physically couldn't do it. And I would visit her on a regular basis, but it was never enough. Really? Never enough.

Even if it went every day for.

Months, it would never be enough.

But you have to create inner boundaries first.

And I have to decide how much do I wanna- Right.

Not because she's guilting me.

Not because of guilting and shaming. And so I'm going, so if I don't, what does she think about me? I'm being a bad son.

And you have to stop caring about that.

And well, I could even not care about it by totally accepting it. Wow. Hey, Mom, I know this is not what you would like. And I know you think I'm being a bad son because I'm not doing what Stan and Janet are doing with Bear, mother down the hallway who was in my class, you know, whatever. And they could visit every day. And, but they had.