The POWERFUL TECHNIQUES To Never Be Lazy & ACHIEVE ANYTHING | Katie Spotz & Lewis Howes

I think we do this thing sometimes where we project that other people are more talented, more gifted, they have something more and are superhuman and it may seem like humility, but what it actually could be is...

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really?

Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

How did you get into this in the first place of wanting to take on some of the most challenging things that the body can take on? and what is the biggest lesson you've learned about being an endurance athlete at this level?

Yeah, so I actually started by avoiding physical activity. And so I had to take a gym class to get my high school diploma. I found the easiest class, which was walking, running, and I was going to put the least amount of effort to get that easy A and kind of move on. I just did that at first, just putting that bare minimum effort, and I was already forced to be there. And so one week, I was just kind of bored, right? Walking in circles is pretty boring. So I thought, okay, well, if I tried to run one mile straight, could I actually do it? And this is coming from someone who, in team sports, I was physically there, but mentally I was kind of not checked in. And so it didn't really, I didn't connect with sports and the team sports, but I set that target and it wasn't this Nike moment, it wasn't this immediate thing, but it was a moment where redefining possible happened. And even when people say, oh, only one mile, all it takes is one mile to redefine this conversation we have with ourselves, which is, you know, I can and can't do things. And in my mind, I couldn't do that. And so knowing that I could do something I never thought I could, it started this little thing like, oh, well, if I never thought I could run one mile and I was wrong, what else am I wrong about? And so one turned into two, turned into three. And that place was really where all the confidence to take on you know, running and cycling. And the same process happens within each sport of endurance.

So you've never done it before. You're like, I can't do 100 miles on a bike. I can't row three miles or hundreds of miles, but then you do one mile and you're like, okay, I can figure it out. Yes.

I mean, there's momentum. And I think what happens a lot when, you know, attempting bigger challenges is we expect that we need to be motivated. And I learned very quickly that you don't actually need motivation. What you need is to begin, and the motivation happens. Like a late friend that's coming to the party, that was something that, you know, I've run many marathons and ultramarathons, but I've never felt motivated at first, and you don't need to. And so that's something endurance taught me. Endurance has definitely shown me that just because you think you can't do something doesn't mean you're right. And so, you know, when I share what I do a lot of times it's, well, I could never do that. And my first question is, have you tried? And if you haven't tried, you don't really know. And so, yeah, Endurance has been a really great platform to be able to explore possibility. I think that's what's also really cool about endurance is in team sports, it's winning, losing, sometimes tie. And in endurance, you're discovering what is humanly possible, what is the limit. And I mean, we could go a long way.

A long way. So how many years have you been doing this now, taking on challenges?

So it's been about a decade. And so it started with running, it moved to cycling, Short after my first marathon, I cycled across America.

Crazy. How long did that take?

That was 40 days and then did it again as a race and that was seven.

Holy cow. Seven days?

So we did it as a team.

Oh, as a team. Not individually.

But there are people who do go.

Seven days across country. Really? They're going like 10 hours a day, huh? 12, 15 hours a day.

22. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Crazy what you can do.

That's incredible.

What is possible.

A friend of mine walked across the country. I think it took him like six months, but he got actually a snake bit him, so he had to take like a month off. And then he started back up once he healed his leg, because it was like swollen.

Oh my goodness.

Shout out to Mike Posner. I think it was a six month journey for him. But did you hike as well, or you walked it while you ran across the country?

So I cycled across the United States, and then swimming came next, and then there's been endurance rollerblading, So basically, and rowing. So those are swim, bike, run, row, rollerblade. That's all the long distance.

What would you say has been the three greatest lessons that you've learned about yourself or the human capacity in the last 10 years of taking all these challenges on?

A lot of these challenges, especially rowing across the Atlantic, it was a really just difficult decision to make because one, I was in the airport saying goodbye to my family. We were looking at each other like, oh, we don't know if this is it.

Wow.

Because, I mean, it's not just physically hard. I didn't have a follow boat and nothing.

There's no support there.

There for two, three months. And so, holy cow.

So you're in a tiny little boat.

Yes. Yeah. And so those were really hard decisions to make. Do I really care that much about doing this that I'm willing to give up potentially my life? Wow. That's as a 19, 20 year old, you know, making that kind of decision.

Did you have a phone or anything in the ocean?

A satellite phone that worked at times and cost $1.50 a minute. So it was definitely for emergencies. And so I've learned a lot about fear. I don't necessarily, like, of course I have fear. It's an important and a valuable emotion. It protects you when you, you know, know how to channel it. But there is this saying of like facing your fears. And for me, I see it more as choosing your fears because you really can't outrun your fears. Sometimes it seems like the easier answer is to quit, to give up, to not continue on. And sometimes that is the easier thing at first, but it may take days or weeks or months, maybe years or your deathbed, but this is the moment where it's the fear of regret. And so we have the fear of failure and the fear of regret. And so I really looked at fears and said, what one do I wanna choose? Do I wanna choose the fear of failure or the fear of regret? And with facing the fear of failure, yes, you get that discomfort, but you also get the reward of doing hard things. So just reframing fear Just because there is a lot of fear of failure in everything I do. And I mean, the last bigger challenge was running across Ohio, and I was injured and wasn't able to run at all for four to six weeks before. So when people are like, oh, are you ready? No, I'm not. I have no idea what's gonna happen. Like, you just, you know, running on faith a little bit.

So you weren't prepared physically.

No, no, I wasn't.

Although you had done endurance before, you knew how to take it on, but your body wasn't conditioned. So I was doing a splits challenge.

For 30 days while training for that, and my hamstring didn't like that. Did you learn the splits?

No.

Didn't work?

No, I listened to my body and it didn't want to do it.

So you got a little bit closer.

Down, but you didn't go all the way down.

Yeah.

I keep wanting to get more flexible, but I'm like, eh, maybe I'm just not supposed to be that much more. Maybe a little bit, seems like a lot.

Yeah.

So what's the difference between choosing fear versus facing your fear? How should we be thinking about fear? Because it sounds like you're still afraid to take on these challenges. It's not just like, oh, this is gonna be easy. There's still a lacking motivation, although you have a deeper sense of why you're doing things. But how do you face on some daunting task with the fear or the anxiety of like, this is gonna be painful. This is gonna take a long time. What do you think about with the anticipation going up to it? And then also in the middle of it, when you're like, Do I really wanna be doing this right now or would I rather be relaxing?

Very rarely once I begin, do I feel I don't wanna be doing it or just because there's so much joy and I mean even saying things like some of the things that I've done or do are similar to like a David Goggins, but I think my mindset is very different in that there's a lot of joy in it and I feel like you should probably be in a better mood if you have that many endorphins. And so there's a lot of joy found in doing these things and just the changes that are happening in your body with all the endorphins and, you know, like the runner's high and those are very real things that happen. And I believe that if you have a strong enough why, you could figure out how and how's aren't as important as why and knowing that these runs, this temporary discomfort, it lasts a day, a week, but the impact can last a lifetime and that's with using these as a platform to raise money for clean drinking water. And so all of the endurance challenges have helped over 43,000 people get clean water.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Do you think if you didn't have a why behind it to help others, would you still be able to take on certain big challenges and complete them or do you feel like you'd give up more easily?

You have to have a strong vision and purpose or else, I mean, your whys have to be stronger than your doubts, your fears, your discomforts. And so before doing any challenge, it's really reflecting on that why and making it stronger than anything else that you might face.

How do you do that then when you're thinking beforehand? How's the mindset? How do you frame it for yourself? Okay, in two weeks, I'm gonna take on this big challenge for three months by myself in the middle of an ocean. How do you think about it? Is it something you're thinking about every day non-stop? Well, this is why I'm doing it and the people that I'll impact. The memories that I'll have for the rest of my life and how I'll.

Be proud of myself or what do you do? Sometimes the very thing that I feel most called to do is the thing that I almost want to avoid the most or I'm intimidated or I don't.

Want to do that.

A part of me is like, I don't know if I can. And that's the exciting part. So there has to be an element of, I don't know if it's possible. It has to feel like it's a call, like it's a calling. There's usually some resistance, and that's when I know I'm on, I'm on to something.

That's where you gotta go, yeah.

Yeah, the thing you resist is oftentimes where you have the potential to grow.

Absolutely.

The most.

So what are you thinking then after you've made the decision about your why, leading up to it a couple weeks before, you've already committed to this thing that you resisted. You've planned it out, you know what you're going to be eating and the stops and all the training for it. What do you think about in that place then, leading up to the final couple weeks?

The plan, whether things are coming together with the plan and all the steps, I think a lot about nutrition and fueling strategies and making sure I have all the gear and double checking. Some of these events do have crew, so having calls with crew, communicating and problem solving, thinking about potential problems. And what's also important is before going into every challenge, before I get emotional, is what is the pull the plug moment? And so it's to the point where I don't really need a crew to be like, keep going, I need a crew to be like, stop.

Your leg is literally broken in half. We need to relax.

So we've identified those things and yeah, that could be a hard moment to be in when you're in the middle of a challenge, you have all this adrenaline, you have all these emotions tied up to it. So I think it's very healthy to know when to stop.

Have you ever stopped?

No.

I mean, you tore your ACL-MCL and you kept going in a rollerblading endurance race.

Yes. I mean, I did get the MRIs. after, so I didn't know that it was broken.

So maybe I tweaked it a little bit, yeah. Yeah, there was a little bit of that going on. My leg's broken. I'm just gonna keep going. I didn't know it was broken. Okay. So there's a lot of people that were like you at one point that one mile seemed so intimidating or so far or that they weren't capable of it. They're not athletes or they're not in shape or whatever it is. But now you're at the point where it's just like, okay, 100 miles is a no big thing and you said you don't need motivation. why do people who can't even do a mile need motivation or do they need something else?

First thing is I have so much respect for endurance that a hundred miles, I could run a hundred miles a hundred times and I still will go into a hundred mile run being like I don't know. And because all it takes is one misstep, it is not guaranteed to anyone no matter what endurance challenge. So I've done a lot of Ironman's, I've done a lot of hundreds, I've done a lot of events to know that one mistake and you could be derailed. And so there's always respect and humility going into these because so much could change when you're doing something for the longest run I've done was 33 hours running non-stop.

How many miles was that?

140.

Yeah.

33 hours.

No sleep.

No stopping. I mean, like some walking to grab food or to go to the bathroom, obviously.

Every hour I was meeting up with the Support crew just to get water and fuel.

Water and fuel because you have to have calories in your system obviously, otherwise you'll burn out and using the bathroom or whatever it is. So... 33 hours, 140 miles. How do you keep yourself motivated at hour 20 when you're like, I just want to sleep?

I had a friend join at night. Like there were little things. Sometimes I break it into segments and at this 25 mile, I'll be able to listen to music.

Right, right.

So I wait, I'm almost at the 25 mile, we're gonna listen to music. Yeah, okay.

So I do little things like that, but there is a state of flow that I'm in, an endurance that I haven't experienced anywhere else but endurance. And what I mean by flow is this state of you're present, you're not worried about tomorrow or yesterday. And I think endurance, the longer you go, the more you have to be so focused. And so I really listen to my body. And so there is, yeah, there's a lot of focus that's happening. And so I find it to be exciting, too. Just like, oh, you never know what's gonna happen. Yeah, it could change. I mean, within a 100-mile race, you can feel like, oh, I could do this forever. And then you could also feel like, I don't want to take another step. And so it's usually such a roller coaster that you just wait a little bit and know that it won't last forever.

So what was the longest time you were by yourself? Was this in the row, in the Atlantic?

Rowing the Atlantic, I was alone at sea for 70 days.

70 days, so a little over two months, two and a half months or something. You didn't see another person during that time. You had a couple phone calls, obviously, but you didn't see anyone. Or maybe...

There was a Venezuelan fishing boat that came and said hello around day like 64.

Wow, so 64 days, no human contact. Just the fish.

The dolphins.

Salt water and the heat.

Some sharks?

Yeah.

Wow. How did you keep yourself sane?

Uh, audiobooks helped.

Okay, so you were listening to books, you were reading, you had downtime, right?

I mean, I would row about 10 to 12 hours and there's not really much else to do out there.

Sleep?

I would scrub the barnacles off the side of my boat sometimes just because it would slow down the boat, but I did watch a couple movies.

But how do you keep yourself not calling in for the Coast Guard to come pick you up and take you? How do you just keep going?

So what was unique about the row is I wanted to put myself in a situation where the only option was to overcome. That's why I didn't want a teammate. That's why I didn't want a follow boat. If I had a follow boat, I probably would have quit.

You would have tapped out.

Realistically, even if I wanted to quit, In a day, I probably would have changed my mind. And so it could take up to two days for help to get there.

You said, I got this. I'm gonna be okay.

Well, by the time they came, I'd be like, no, I changed my mind. So I think that helped. For whatever reason, I did have a lot of, you know, doubt, doubters, and people saying things that I couldn't do it. So some people get motivation from different places. For me, I that's very motivating when someone's like, you can't do that. And I'm like, okay, thank you. Those all helped.

Yeah.

For me, it's to keep going.

Wow. What happens when you feel an extreme amount of pain in one of these challenges and you feel like, okay, my body's telling me it's shutting down. My mind is now getting in this negative loop of pain and frustration and, ah, maybe I should need to stop. How do you Flip the thought into something more. Do you have a mantra? Do you have a story you tell yourself? Do you go back to your why? What do you do?

I'm huge into problem solving. Like, there are people who spend months out at sea, they'll come back with salt sores all over their body, and that's a lot of pain that could be easily prevented by just taking solar showers and using baby wipes to wipe down all the salt off your body. So if I do have pain, it's usually what can be done to minimize this pain. And a lot of times in endurance, it's just having the restraint and patience to slow your pace down. But there's so many things like swapping out shoes will alleviate a lot of pain just because in these endurance runs, your feet can swell to sizes larger. And so you could do a lot with your shoes, you could do a lot with whatever you're wearing, you could do a lot with your pacing and your nutrition. And so it's a good signal and it's important to listen to. So I use pain as a teaching moment, a listen moment, a change something moment. And I do think there is a rush of overcoming it when your mind decides that it's stronger than that feeling.

Yeah.

How do you get your mind to believe that it's stronger than the extreme pain that you're feeling in a momentary experience? Is it training? Is it just practice? Is it just... Because this wasn't something you did when you were growing up. You were like, I don't want to do any physical activity, it sounds like, and barely pass a gym class that's walking and I can't do one mile. So when there's this 100 miles of pain, how do you constantly overcome it?

Every mile that you've done gives you confidence to go another further. And so I think looking back at how far you've come and how many times you've said, I couldn't do it, and all of us carry a long list of things we thought we couldn't do that we did. And so I think checking ourselves and that's helpful.

Where does faith come into play for you?

I think for the row, there was obviously a lot of highs and breaking that world record and raising a bunch of money for charity. And it was a whirlwind after that particular event. And it wasn't immediate, but about six months a year later, I was really in this low. And sometimes we think the achievement is the high, but for me, I felt like that was the low. because I reached my goal, but I lost my purpose. I lost the reason I wanted to jump out of bed every morning, the thing I was working towards. And once I had lost that, it really made me hungry to seek and hungry to know what is a purpose and what that is beyond a goal achievement, striving for the next thing and the next thing. And we could continue to do that. For me, the only place that I've been able to find that rest from finding my identity and my worth and achievement is faith. And so I started to have a relationship with God as a Christian, and that has shifted everything for me as an athlete. And I don't think I would have been able to go back to endurance in a healthy way because it's really hard to enjoy something if you think your worth depends on it. Because it's like, what if you lose? Then you lose everything. And so that was kind of the mentality, very fear based. And so it's given me a lot of freedom in that. I know there's like a lot of talk of like self-confidence and it's freed me from really needing that because I have confidence in God. And so I have more confidence in God than... So it's not a need that I have anymore.

So you don't put the pressure to build your self-confidence, you just eliminate that weight is what it sounds like. You put your confidence and faith in God to give you what you need.

Absolutely.

To overcome challenges, to take on...

I mean, one of the biggest things about these challenges is facing failure and who are you when you fail. And so there's been a lot of rest in that space. And a lot of the tips, the lessons can help people achieve and strive and continue to go through that. But I think what people need most is that place to rest and place to feel like they don't need to earn their worth.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So how do you, how should we define our worth? By what?

So for me as a Christian, it's really about what Jesus did and what he enabled us to have access to through his acts.

You don't divide your worth on your achievements or by how far you can go or whether you accomplish something or not. You don't put your worth on that.

No.

What would happen if you put your worth on these big challenges, do you think? Of either accomplishing them or failing at them.

I think what happens when your worth or my worth would be tied to it is it would just suck out the joy of it. I think there could be a lot of ego involved because I was given everything that I have so I can't really take credit and even being a hard worker, that is also a gift. Being determined is also a gift. I mean, I could not use it but it was it's still a gift given. So even to take ownership and say, well, I worked hard and I'm so determined, well, those are also gifts. And so it's humility, really.

What about identity? How do you think about identity, build your identity? Is it tied to these acts or is it more about something else in your life? And if you're not able to do these things anymore, how would that affect your identity?

Yeah, I mean, it's very basic. but as a Christian, it's a child of God. And yeah, it's just kind of mind-boggling to think that everything is going to wash away just to have our moment with the Maker and everything is going to be determined for eternity on what we do in this and what decision we make about faith. And so that's a big, It's a big decision.

Sure. You gotta make. So why is this, do you look at your, do you identify as part of your identity as someone who takes on these challenges or is that not part of your identity?

I feel like, yes. I mean, I think God's called me to do this for sure. Yeah.

How do you know that's part of your calling, at least for this season of your life? Was there something you were hearing when you were younger that brought you to that first mile and then said, okay, I wanna try more? How come that didn't happen sooner in your life?

I think some lessons are always available. It's are we willing to listen and are we ready to listen? And so my own stubborn nature can be helpful in certain situations, but in other situations it could prevent me from learning those lessons. So I wasn't ready to learn any of those lessons.

Until that moment, yeah, in those times. How do you set goals for yourself so that they're scary enough for you to be excited to do them, but also not too crazy to say, okay, I'm just gonna double my distance and shorten the time this time, 'cause it's scary, but how do you set goals accurately, I would say?

There's definitely been, like, even before rowing the Atlantic, that was part of a bigger vision of going around the whole world. by human power. And I was like, well, what's the hardest part? It was the row. And so that's why I did that, Mainland to Mainland. That's why I did that part first, because I wanted to do the hardest part first. So that, I feel like, has been with me as an idea or a dream for a really long time.

So you go around the world. So you row part of it, you swim part of it, you run part of it, you bike part of it.

Exactly.

And just go around.

Yes.

Wow.

I think, you know, it's a timing thing. And for my 20s, I was more focused on, you know, career type things. And so after I'm out of the Coast Guard, that could be one dream or goal.

That's crazy. That's cool.

With the vision of helping 100,000 people get clean water.

So right now, that's really cool. How long would that take, do you think?

It really depends. I mean, with COVID and with getting in and out of countries and political things, and so it could take two or three years.

Wow. Has anyone ever done that?

No woman has.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

I probably would want to do it in legs anyways, because I think you can get a little weird going on these adventures.

Two, three years like that. You're like, just isolated.

Like, yeah, I think, like, three to six months is as long as I would want to do that.

Yeah.

But that's been one with me for over a decade now.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

What's your biggest fear?

Well, I was reading about some areas and they're like, you should get kidnapping insurance. And I'm like, whoa, okay. So I am looking at certain sections to have protection and have a guide and pay for that service. But I haven't really done many adventures in different countries. And if I did, it was Australia or New Zealand. So, and even doing the row, I mean, the scariest moments being in the middle of the ocean were other boats either crashing into me or there's pirates. Anywhere you adventure, I think my biggest fear is what other people could do as a solo traveler. So that's my biggest fear. And I'm glad I do have that fear because I will use it.

Yeah, you will. Yeah. What do you feel is the biggest challenge in your life? You've finished so many of these challenges so far. What's the biggest internal challenge you face?

I think it was after the row and really figuring out what is my identity.

What's next? Okay, I just, the conference is a big thing and now I'm kind of depressed. You hear about this with like Olympians, they've been training their whole life or something. They do this crazy feat, amazing high and then like, the next days or weeks they go into a depression because there's no more routine, there's no more goal, there's no more collaboration or challenge to face. Do you feel like we should always have some type of challenge we're taking on?

Life definitely is meant for us to be growing constantly. I think there's definitely balance with that and if you're going from one to the next and not really cherishing it and enjoying it, it's doing a disservice to what you're doing and this is good for us.

Yeah.

And one of the things that you're always doing in these challenges, it's towards a greater cause than you. It's all about providing access to clean water to people around the world, right? Exactly. And I think the number is you've helped close to 45,000 people, right, gain access to clean water. How important is it for us to have something beyond ourselves, whether we're an athlete on a team sport or endurance athlete, but taking on these physical mental demanding challenges. How important do you feel like it is for all of us to have something bigger than us as a part of our why? And do you think you'd be able to finish these things without having that vision in your mind?

Yeah, I don't even know if I'd want to start.

Really?

Yeah, I mean, if... Like what's the point?

Yeah.

If you have something you're so passionate about, there's got to be a way to use it. And so, I mean, that is somewhat of how I do define greatness, is finding the thing you're most passionate about and figuring out how to serve it and use it of service. Use it. Great passion meets a great need. And I just think we're wired to do that. We're meant to be in community. And we all have gifts, we all have talents, we all have something to bring to the table.

So when things get really challenging in your mind, is that something you think about? It's like, okay, I'm gonna keep doing this for the people that need water.

Well, with water, the good thing is, I mean, we can disagree about a lot of things in the world. I mean, we could all agree that everyone deserves clean water and clean water Similar to endurance challenges, I think clean water is almost like a metaphor because all these challenges seem impossible and the big numbers, right? And clean water is the same way. It just seems impossible because 785 million people don't have clean water, but it's the same approach of endurance, of taking it one step at a time, taking it one mile at a time, taking it one person at a time. at a time and that's how I believe the water crisis will be solved. And it just fires me up about clean water because there's a lot of problems we don't have answers to. There's a lot of, you know, whether it's research or technology, but with clean water we already have the tools. And some wells will fail and you'll need to maintain it and environments will change and there'll be flooding or droughts. And so yes, there are always challenges with everything, but we do have proven solutions that work. And so when you see a huge problem and aside from air, what's our basic need? And we have after air, it's water. And so when you see how much potential there is with technology and the fact that, you know, driving and flying and all of this, it's, I just get so fired up about, wow, this is a problem we can actually solve and it could change our world.

Yeah.

One in eight people. This is our daily struggle and we have the potential to end a crisis that has been on our planet. I mean, that's exciting.

Yeah, that's very exciting. What do you feel like this has all done for your mental health?

So what happens when you're doing these challenges is I get a lot of adrenaline. So much adrenaline.

Before, during, after.

Even the day before a race, like not being able to sleep. And there's so many endorphins and then once it's over it's like oh the party's over. And so I've done this so much that I know that that will probably happen and that's kind of part of the process and that's my body's way of going from one high to recalibrate, you know? And so if I went from that high to another, it just, my body needs to regulate and that's kind of part of it is just feeling depleted and feeling now that I understand it and don't take it personally, that's definitely helped so that it's not like, oh no, why am I feeling oh, this is because my body just used all of that and now I have to rest and recuperate. But it's also enabled me, like it's been a positive impact on my mental health and that building community, meeting new people, exploring, traveling, the community. Like there's definitely a strong community within ultra running and every sport has their own community. And so I've definitely been able to meet others and share that.

That's cool.

Yeah.

What advice would you give someone who's taking on a big challenge in their life where they don't feel prepared, i.e. myself getting ready for a marathon? What if they don't feel like they're physically prepared for some challenge, whether it's two miles they're about to run or a marathon or something? They're like, I'm gonna do this thing, but I don't feel fully ready or prepared. What advice would you have for someone to take on the challenge? Complete the challenge.

Well, there's a lot of people who have done it who have felt like you felt right now.

Right.

Who've done marathons, yeah, been prepared. Yeah, lots of people.

Yeah, a lot of people have felt what you feel right now and have been able to do a marathon.

Just remember that, or is there any other wisdom, any other advice? I think you mentioned before, go into it like with just each moment at a time.

Yeah.

Bring a sense of joy to the experience. Don't dread the the end of it or how long it's going to take, but just enjoy each moment, right?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if I do any kind of event, if I already think about the end, it's kind of, it's over. I mean, it does definitely suck out the joy. And so just, yeah, embracing it and not taking it personally when those feelings come up. I think most people who ever run marathons, who ever do these things, go through some kind of like, oh, I don't know if I can. And that's just part of the process. And so focusing just on that one mile and every mile ahead will be dictated on how you pace and how you focus on that one mile. So yeah, just focusing one mile at a time. One thing that you know, through these endurance challenges, like rowing the Atlantic, it's 3,000 miles, and halfway through I was like, I want to give up. This is ridiculous. And so I'm like, I give up on 3,000, but I give in to one mile. And that was my shift. I'm rowing one mile 3,000 times. And that's really, you know, one mile.

Just One mile at a time, not 3,000 miles. Yes.

No, I couldn't do that. And I mean, most endurance challenges, the halfway point is like, oh, I'm closer to the end than the start. For the row, I had this opposite thing happen where I'm like, I gave everything to get to the halfway point. I don't think I could do that again.

I'm exhausted.

It feels bigger. Oh, yeah. And now I'm like, in this place where I'm the farthest away from land on any-- So I'm in the middle of nowhere.

Get me out.

And so it just felt a lot bigger. And so that's why I said I can't do this 3,000 stuff. I could do one mile. And the one mile is the way to go.

Focus on one mile at a time.

Yeah.

Okay, I got this. One mile at a time. We can follow you@katiespots.com, S-P-O-T-Z. stay in touch with you there. You're over on Instagram and social media as well, Facebook, Twitter, and you'll be sharing more of these adventures in the future, I'm assuming, on social media you're posting about it when you're doing them. And people can learn more, they can be a part of the causes to help clean water by following you over there as well. What else can we do to support you right now?

So clean water is my thing, and so if you'd like to donate, All the proceeds go directly to supporting clean water projects. So on my website there's a place to donate and that would be greatly appreciated.

Awesome. Love it, love it. We'll make sure to send people over there. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of the interviews called the Three Truths. So imagine it's your last day on Earth many years away from now. You get to live as long as you want to live, but for whatever reason it's the last day. And you accomplish everything you want to accomplish, you have a great life, But you've got to take all of your accomplishments, your message, it's got to go with you to the next place. So, no one has a memory of you or your information anymore. But you get to write down three things you know to be true from your life, three lessons that you would share with the rest of us. And this is all we would have to kind of remember from your information. What would you say are those three lessons or three truths for you?

Yeah, I'd say the first one is that just because you think you can't do something doesn't mean you're right and that we're more capable than we think.

And.

I think we do this thing sometimes where we project that other people are more talented, more gifted, they have something more and are superhuman and it may seem like humility, but what it actually could be is avoiding taking responsibility for us to do our very best with what we have, or even laziness, like to be projecting that other people are bigger or better. So yeah, we have more than we think we do. Yeah, I would say that motivation is overrated, that you can do things when you don't feel like it, and there's something that's even more empowering, and that motivation shows up when you do. Motivation is like momentum. When you begin, it'll start, and so it'll keep continuing. So I think showing up and trying is really important, and that you can kind of trust the process, that motivation will come. I mean, one step makes it easier to take the next one.

I like that. Okay. And the third truth?

Okay. So a lot of what I've done is facing and dealing with failure and the potential for failure. And the biggest tragedy is not failing but not having something worth failing for.

Ooh.

So it's just finding something that is bigger than your fears and insecurities and is worth failing for.

Say that one more time. Not failing but not having something worth failing for.

It's not failing but Not having something worth failing for. That's sad. When you're just like, I fail big. Fail big.

Yeah.

So how do we find something worth failing for?

I think we all have a call.

Is that insecurity, that fear? It's kind of like leaning into that is what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think everyone here on planet Earth has a mission, has a call, and It's not meant to be a mystery and just to really listen to it like intuitively and yeah, I love that.

Those are good three truths. I want to acknowledge you, Katie, for, I mean, just taking on the fears in your life and taking on the challenges that seem super scary to yourself and resistant, but also saying, I'm gonna take them on even though you could fail or you could succeed at them and you keep showing up. it's really inspiring. And you do it not for the recognition for yourself, but for a greater cause, which I think is really inspiring as well. And obviously you're getting rewarded and acknowledged for this effort as well. But I think having something deeper, more meaningful behind this vision is really inspiring to serve other people as well as supporting yourself on this journey of life and creating more opportunities for yourself. So I really acknowledge you for the journey, the accomplishments, the success, and the service underneath all of it, which is really inspiring. My final question for you is, what is your definition of greatness?

Well, that was a great lead-in because I feel like when kids are young, it's like, what do you want to be? A doctor, a lawyer, or this or that? And who says humanitarian? Not many people. Or a saint. But greatness is being of service and serving something bigger than yourself.

I love it. Katie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

If you enjoyed that interview, then I know you'll love what we have coming up right now. You've known Kobe for a lot longer than me. I knew him once in an interview and we stayed in touch over messaging each other, which was nice of him. But he was really impactful in my life, watching him as an athlete and also as a human. how he dealt with adversity from earlier in his career to how he transitioned almost seamlessly from athlete to entrepreneur, leader, creator, storyteller. What was the biggest lesson that he taught you? And what was the most impactful moment you remember spending with him?

Well, Kobe is, Kobe is one of the best dads. And I truly believe that.

The love.

That, you know, he has for his family. And I think the biggest thing for me is just being able to kind of, like right now, even when I'm in the gym with my daughter and we're working on something, like he took the time and the energy And as kids, he was just dad to them. You know, it didn't matter if you won or scored 81 the night before, like you're picking up. I think the best story that he told, he was on our podcast, the Bleedlow and Parker podcast that I do during the NBA season, and he said that he was late to pick up his daughter one time, and he wasn't on time, and they ripped him. And so every time after that, wife, daughters, everybody ripped him. He was on time, one of the first people to be there and pick up line to pick him up after that, because that was what he had to do. And so to me, I think you tell me who somebody is, but you tell what their family is going to say about them and how much time they spend and energy they spend. So for me, that was a huge role model. Just in the way that he spoke about them and how much pride and joy he, I remember running into him in China and it was the first time I met his daughters and the Olympics. He was like, you see in the Olympics in '08 and he's like, you see them? You see them? They're gonna break all your records one day. That's the first thing I'm like, well, nice to meet you. That was the first time you met him?

The first time I met his daughters.

Okay, not him.

Not him.

But the first time I met his daughters, that's the first thing. he said to me. And I just remember laughing over the years about that. And, you know, it's just one of those things where you could see how much love and energy and effort that he put into his family and how much joy that brought him. And to be honest with you, I think the biggest thing is, is just overcoming adversity. People are, you know, they think it's easy to get to five championships or they, it's easy to just come out and score or whatever, but to see, like working out with him and seeing the amount of detail and energy that he put into, I remember doing a jab step. You know, we've done jabs since we were like five. Jab step, jab step. He was like, no, I'm not biting. Your left leg doesn't move the same when you're going that direction. So why would I bite that you're actually gonna go that direction? Like that attention to detail that he has, like it's an obsession. And I'm a firm believer in kids can get it. If you talk to them and teach them, and spend time with them and tell them and teach them how to work to get something, they can get it. So we don't need to dumb down stuff, we don't need to baby them. And he didn't do that. The basketball team he coached, they were running sets that we ran in college.

Really?

Yeah, so it's just, I really loved that about him.

Was there one moment that stands out that was really memorable and impactful for you?

I think the amount of confidence that he has, and he's always had, is the thing that sticks out to me the most.

Global. Yeah.

Yeah, the amount of ways that he can just say things in just a Kobe only mentality. There was a time in 2012 at the Olympics where we would always go play cards. And so it was like a-- London. Yes, in London. And it was, you know, the players lounge where everybody would show up and we'd play play cards and whatever. Literally, you could not leave if he lost. He had to keep playing until he won.

First of all, I'm looking over somebody's.

Shoulder because the pot was ridiculous. I'm not playing with D-Wade and Kobe and all that. But yeah, you can't leave and he's sitting there like, no, oh, so you're scared, you're not gonna play again? Dude, I've just beat you four straight times. Oh, am I scared? Oh, you don't wanna play again? So that's just his mentality. He's always been like that. He's cocky, but he puts in the time.

Yeah. Who was the athlete on the men's side that you respected the most growing up?

I am a Chicagoan. So obviously I grew up watching the Bulls. I was a huge Bulls fan to the point where it was like, we didn't win the championship this year. We were trash, you know? 'Cause it was like the expectation was like Grant Park Every single year, that's where the championship celebration was. Like everybody knew. So I would say as a whole, just the Bulls franchise.

Were there any players when you were in high school and college that you watched and respected a lot?

I was the biggest Allen Iverson fan.

Really? Gosh, he's amazing.

Allen Iverson fan. My brother got drafted and he played with Philly his first two years, and Allen Iverson When I saw him in person, my mouth like dropped. I was the biggest Allen Iverson fan to the point where it was like, I was trying to get the braids, I had the finger band. My brother got a finger band from him, so I was wearing that. I was wearing the, you know, the AI, the Reebok shoes. I was doing all that. Like I was trying to be like AI.

Who's the athlete you respect the most?

It's a really good question. Honestly, Reggie Miller.

Really?

I really do.

Why?

Because I feel as though people don't understand that they were like, it was this so close. And the way that we say and talk and the way people talk about championships, it comes down to like an inch.

Inch.

A centimeter. And that's how that dude is bad. Like he is unbelievable and just realizing after working with him, At TNT and NBA TV and things like that Realizing that it's not just like you can't turn it on and off like you're not just a basketball player that is yous know attention to detail whatever like he's like that with broadcasting. He's always on he's always early like super early to everything He's always knows exactly what the rundown of the show is like some analysts. It's like just ask me the question, whatever he knows everything His attention to detail and He just puts in the time. He gets up every morning and works out at the butt crack of dawn. Like he just, being around him more, it's just so much respect for him. Wow.

And what about the female athlete not in basketball that you admire and respect the most?

Female athlete not in basketball, I mean Serena Williams is... She's a beast.

She's a beast.

I mean, I grew up, my mom was trying to get me to play tennis, like late in life, and I was just like, I don't wanna play basketball. Serena had that.

You got that wingspan over there.

I was trying to get my daughter and that, you know, that didn't work out too well. Maybe, maybe my nieces or something. But, yeah, Serena Williams, I think for me, it's, you know, we connect on her being a mom as well. I think it's so important in stepping into places and rooms that aren't used to having people that look and are like you.

Right.

And she's done that and basically broken down every single barrier for those that follow. And to be able to see like the fruit of your labor while you're actually still playing, like to me, for her to be playing against some of these kids that the reason why they're playing tennis is because of her.

It's crazy.

To be able to see the fruit of your labor while you're still playing and you're still killing, like killing on the court, I mean, I idolize her for sure.

Wow.

'Cause she had a child and then started playing within months, I think, afterwards too, right?

Yeah.

Two, three, four months maybe?

Yeah.

That's crazy. Super fast and still winning and unbelievable. Do you have a mantra that you live by on a daily basis or when you're in practice or when you're at a game when things aren't going well or when you're tired, when you want to stop, when you'd rather go relax? Do you say something to yourself?

Well, I have two things. One, so I played for the late Great Pat Summit at Tennessee.

I saw her speak once when I was 16, and I was so impressed with her leadership. What was that like?

Coach Summit is one of those people that people try to emulate and be like her. There's nobody that can ever be touch what she, who she, anything. It's just Pat is Pat. She transcended women's sports. She transcended the ability of a lot of her student athletes to even have confidence in going forward and being who they are, walking into rooms. And when you talk about women, women equality, gender equality, she spearheaded all of that. So I would say my mantra when things get tough, because I think I learned so much more about her when things got tough than when she's winning championships. To me, it's like, let's look when things aren't going right. Let's look when stuff isn't going well. When you're not hanging banners, when you're not cutting down nets, how are you as an individual? What are you really doing day to day? And she almost did it more so when things are tough. And I asked her, I remember, you know, when she first got sick, I asked her, like, how do you get through day to day when things get tough? And she's like, left foot, right foot, breathe, repeat. And honestly, that is, I promise you what I say sometimes, even when I'm like wanting to explode, I'm like, left foot, right foot, breathe, repeat. Like, that's my, that's my mantra. Um, and then secondly, I heard, I cannot remember, it was in gym class when I was in like eighth or ninth grade. They had somebody come in and speak to us. And they said that the power of humans is our ability to have compassion and think of others needs and think of what others would want to do. And sometimes we end up putting others before ourselves. And so on those days where you don't want to do something, on those days where you're struggling, who are you doing it for? And so for me, when I don't want to work out, when I don't want to hop on the Peloton, do my 45 minute workout. I like Layla. Like I'm doing it for her.

You think of someone. Mm-.

Yeah.

I'm like, I'm doing it for you. And sometimes I'll tell her, Layla, I worked out for you today. Like, Layla, I got on that plane to go to Atlanta today for you. Like, that's who I got on the plane for. And so it kind of helps, you know, when you wanna do that extra, you don't wanna do that extra set.

Or you don't wanna do that extra line drill or whatever, just say who I'm doing it for. Isn't that true when, When I'm running long distance, I don't want to run long distance. I just committed to doing the marathon in March in LA because I've been putting it off for my whole life.

You're insane.

Because I'm a sprinter. You know, I'm a basketball football player. I don't run one, three miles and that's a lot. And I've been starting to every mile think of someone when it gets hard and put my attention towards that person. And my focus is, I don't want to let this person down. And me stopping the smile is letting this person down in my life. And so I use that as a technique and a tool to just put my attention elsewhere as opposed to my own pain or tiredness. And it really helps.

That's amazing.

And then I have the merit, when I run the marathon, I'm going to have a wristband and I'll put a name, 26 names.

That would be.

And just look down every mile and put my attention towards those individuals.

That, first of all, I want to commend you because I started doing distance training last off season. Oh man. And when I tell you it's just.

Like not what I do.

Like I see regular people that aren't athletes out running miles on the beach and I'm just like how? I don't get it. So first of all I want to commend you for doing a marathon because that's commitment.

Well I haven't done it yet, but.

I'm committed to doing it. But I mean at least committing to preparing for a marathon. But secondly like you're right because then you turn that attention and that energy. Like I think so much is energy.

Mm-.

Like if you think about it when you walk in, I was, I can't remember who I was listening to, what podcast it was, but they were talking about how like, you know, you can turn on a television and you can tell teams that play with energy. It's just something that you can't touch, you can't feel, it's not, it's, you know, it's the intangibles. And I feel like that with working out with the way you do things, like energy is everything. And if you can create and find that energy, like you're able to do so much.

How do you find it when you don't have it?

I think it's thinking of, yeah, it's thinking of your why, thinking of your reason. I also feel as though when you do something, the look back feeling, the feeling of regret, there's so many times where I wake up and I don't want to work out. And then after I'm done, I'm like, oh, there's never a time where I'm like, I wish I wouldn't have done that.

It doesn't really happen.

Unless maybe you injured yourself or something. Exactly. But usually you're like, I feel so much better.

I did it.

I accomplished this. I'm so goal-oriented. So I have the microscopic goals from day to day, and I have the telescopic goals. And those are so important to me because you kind of lose sight when you're looking out into the future. You lose sight of how you're going to accomplish it. So those microscopic goals, those daily goals of like, okay, I'm going to do this. At least I've done this task. I accomplished something today.

Where do you think it'd be without goals?

Oh my goodness, I am so goal-oriented. Like to the point where when I tore my ACL, you know, the degrees that they try to get your knee to bend. And I remember them telling me, 'cause the first thing, don't tell me I can't do something.

Right.

I'm the one that's like, my dad was like trying to get rid of me on a Saturday and was like, Run around the house 80 times. My brother's like, yeah, I bet you can't do it. I'll give you five bucks. And on the 100th lap, I was like, you said 80, like I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So don't tell me I can't do something. And so that's kind of my goals. Like I set them with that in mind of trying to push myself and trying to see what I can achieve, you know, make it a competition even within my head.

Yeah.

You know.

Do you think anyone can achieve great accomplishments without setting clearly defined big goals? and incremental goals along the way? Do you think it just happens? I have this idea it's just gonna happen. Or...

I mean, you can call it discipline, you can call it organization, you can call it goal, but I think you have to have some sort of plan. I don't know. And maybe there are people that just fall upon stuff, but to me, I think it has to be clear, calculated. You have to have a purpose. otherwise for me, I lose motivation. If I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish, what it's going to get, that type of thing, then, like, if you get on a treadmill and you're just running and you don't know how long you're running for, you don't know the distance you're running, you don't know the speed, I don't know how many people, maybe there's some, like, Marines out there that would just get on there.

And run until it's time.

But I was, like, the one at.

Practice, like, okay, so it. Just tell me at least the first five minutes so I can get through that and then we can make it work.

Yeah, it's funny. Unless you're like Forrest Gump, maybe. Just felt like running. I felt like running.

I'm not gonna run for TV.

I love that movie. Where do you think you'd be without coaches in your life? Do you think you'd be able to be as great as an athlete, champion, all-American, player of the year, without a coach's? Could you do it on your own, you think?

No, absolutely not. And I think the biggest maybe on the court, you know, for some people, but for me personally, it's like sports is like a metaphor for life. There's so many things within life that I wouldn't have been able to get over or accomplish or persevere through without having those failures in sport. And I always love the coach that kind of like tests people. to see how they react. Yeah, no, I definitely wouldn't be able to accomplish any of this stuff just because I think the mental toughness, when you're young, you don't understand why, but, you know, soon you, you realize later in life, you're like, huh. That's what allowed me to have the mental toughness.

Right.

Because, you know, when you're younger, everybody kind of micromanages your time. You're in study hall to make sure that you do it. You're, they're checking every grade. Then you get to the pros and they're like, yeah, so the bus is at this time. We play at this time. You got to eat by yourself.

Yeah.

You got to figure out your workout plan. You have to do all these things. And so it's like coaches before taught me how to have discipline. And sometimes people don't do what they need to do. They need other people to tell them. And, you know, once you get to a point where you're kind of like your own disciplinarian, I think it It's really special. Yeah, I've been- you- know what you need, you know?

Of course, yeah. I've always been very disciplined, I wouldn't say always, but I say when I got to high school and on, I got very disciplined because I got clear on my goals. But having a coach could always push me a little harder than I would push myself. Just a little bit even. I could push myself hard, you know, I can work out with the best of them alone in the gym, but it's like you've got someone over your shoulder helping you, correcting you, just watching you. You got to push a little harder. When I transitioned from playing arena football, I never made it to the NFL, but I was making 250 bucks a week and I felt like the richest man in the world because I was getting to catch a football and I got paid. Playing arena ball, it was very hard to transition out of not having a team, a coach, an organization. And I quickly, within about a year, was like, I need to make my life a sport. I need to find coaches and fitness and relationships and business and have some type of guides helping me. And I've always had coaches since then and it's always made me better. So I'm a big believer in coaches in sport, in life, as a mom, as a whatever. For me personally, it's key.

I think it's key and you hit it right on the head. And Coach Summit used to always say this, when you're chasing something, you should chase people and passion. And if you chase those two things, you'll never fail. And in a way, especially in these last two years when I've kind of started thinking about what I want to do after basketball, after the ball stops bouncing, I realize it's like your relationships that you're building with people. And you know, my goal, I want to win another championship for sure within basketball. My goal after basketball, like I look at guys like Magic Johnson, And I look at how he's kind of a business, like he's a businessman. He transitioned into that. And honestly, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but he was kind of one of the first from the NBA that really became a businessman. And I remember a couple of years ago, I had a meeting with him and I was like, I wanna be you. I want to have that transition where we can open up doors for other women in sport. Because honestly, like if you think about it, just training wise, Team sports are run like a boardroom. That's how it is. And so you're learning and you're competitive and you learn how to fail, you learn how to get up, you know, we're coachable. And that's the first thing I say. Anytime I have a business meeting or anything, listen, I'm coachable. So you tell me what you want, what you don't like, we talk about it. And so that's kind of, you're right, it is about surrounding yourself with great people. You know, obviously you're gonna be passionate at what you do, but it's the people that really make it.

What did Pat mean by chasing people?

She always surrounded herself with people that had a number of goals that kind of were in the same chapter as her. She said she doesn't want people on the same page, she just needs people in the same chapter. Because you can eventually get to the same page. That's what she said. I can remember a number of times is she was always a mentor. She was always for her assistant coaches leaving and getting head coaching jobs.

That's cool.

And then basically imagine the impact that she had at Tennessee. And then those coaches are taking what she had and what she said and what she taught them. So are their programs. And so it's almost like that trickle down effect of The amount of kids that she truly has impacted is still going on because there's still head coaches that coached under her. And so that to me is what chasing people means. It means, you know, establishing a community. It means being a mentor. Like there's so many people in my life that have done things for me with nothing in return.

Right.

Like there's so many times where you really are like, why did they help me?

You know?

But then you go and do something for somebody that it doesn't benefit you at all. And so I think that's kind of like, that's what being a good human is, you know? It's just like there's paying it forward, you know? And you go out to dinner and somebody pays for your dinner and then the next time you pay for somebody else's dinner and like, kind of trickles down.

And so that's kind of, yeah, that's what I learned from Pat. What do you think made you such an instinctual, dominant athlete? Where did the mindset come from, like, needing to or the desire to win? all the time at the highest level. I don't know.

I'm a really competitive person and I'm always kind of like, I'm like a perpetual one-upper. Yeah. So, you know, it's like if I, and you know, I think one of the things that most people said about me is when I started to succeed, they said, well, you know, now she's got this, she's gonna, you know, relax and it's not gonna happen again. And that's the exact opposite way that I think, you know, I'm like, if I get this, I need to get this, and if I get this, I need to get that. And then just kind of like, I always, try to get better and better because that's the fun of a challenge, you know? And I think as time went on, too, then I started to hit these, you know, marks of, you know, records, and. And that then excited me. And then, you know, it's just, like, finding constant motivation in becoming better.

Right.

Did you ever doubt yourself?

There's only one time I doubted myself. I was. I was thinking I was right after the Olympics.

Which one?

2002. I was still young, you know, so.

I was 17 then.

17, 18. And I just, you know, I kind of got demoted from the ski team. I was on, like, the, you know, Europa Cup team, which is one level below, and I was kind of crawling my way back. And, yeah, I just. I kept crashing, and I wasn't sure if I was gonna make it. And then I just decided to double down on what I was doing. I hired a trainer with money I didn't have. I asked for an advance on my contract. and I spent the whole summer with a new trainer in Monaco and I got my first podium the next winter.

So when you doubted yourself, how did you get out of it though? Was it just let me find people to help me get out of it?

I think like a reset, you know, because you get stuck in a rut and it's like what I'm doing is not working. So if I need to get to the next level, what is there that I can change? You can't change everything, obviously, because then you can't figure out what was wrong. but I needed to find something that I could drastically improve on to get better and fitness is one thing that I had obviously worked hard at but not hard enough.

Really?

And so I made that change and it worked.

Now when you had all these, you had like what, I don't know, so many crashes and injuries right? Throughout so many years.

A lot, yeah, just a couple.

I mean you tore your knees like 50 times, I mean everything is crazy, you got plates in your arm and your back, I mean it's nuts. How do you have confidence after a crash and come back and say, well, I'm going to go back and do this course or the next course, better, faster, stronger? -Short-term memory.

-Really? -Yeah. I mean, it's part of the job. -The concussions, I guess, help because you forget. -Yeah. You're like, oh, wait, I don't even remember that. Shoot. Yeah, you know, it's like, crashing is part of the job description. So, if you're not ready to do that, then, you know, you should probably not do that. But for me, you know, I always use it as a learning tool. You know, what did I do wrong?

What can I do better?

You know, I always analyze my crashes. A lot of people can't watch their crashes because they're like, you know, they don't wanna watch their crashes.

It's painful to watch your crashes.

Especially when you're scrolling through them. I was like, what's my style point? Oh my gosh. And every time my coaches, I would crash, they would stop videoing because they're like, oh shoot, you know, they stop videoing. I'm like, you have to keep videoing. I wanna see the whole thing. And so yeah, I mean, I just would analyze my crashes, what I do wrong, and I think for me, you have to push the limits in order to find your limit. And I always wanted to be right up on the limit, and then obviously you go past it sometimes, which you crash. But if you're not pushing yourself that hard, and you're never crashing, you're never gonna find your limit. That's how I think.

But some of these crashes, they would take, what? three to six months to recover, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So how do you get to, do you feel like you could have done it without crashing or do you feel like you need to crash?

I mean, not for me. That's just kind of how I raced was always 110%. So I think that's the reason why I was able to be, you know, as successful as I was and downhill for as long as I was. But that's also the reason why crashed a lot. So it's kind of a double-edged sword, but I don't know, I wouldn't change it. I think every injury taught me something. I think I became a stronger person, maybe not physically, but mentally I definitely got a lot stronger. And I think when you go through those kinds of setbacks, you also have a different perspective and appreciate what you have so much more. So every time I crashed or I had injuries, I became more hungry To come back because I realize how much I miss it and how much I love it and, you know, just, I wouldn't change it.

Yeah.

Can you walk me through when you're going down right before you're about to go off? What is it called?

The starting gate.

The starting gate.

Yeah.

Right before you're about to go off, what does that five minutes before look like in your mind?

I mean, hopefully it's really pretty empty.

Really?

Yeah, I mean, because up until that point you do all the preparation, right? You know, I'm, I've analyzed the course, I've visualized it a thousand times in my head. I've done all the physical preparation I can do. I've warmed up in the morning. I've warmed up right before I'm in the starting gate. And at that moment, that's when you kind of automatize everything. Like everything should be automatic. You should be in the starting gate calm and like ready to go. Because if you're thinking about, you know, certain things that you could have done, you know, you're screwed. Because you have to be so in the moment, you know, when you're racing at 80 miles an hour, You have to be only thinking about what's right here. You know, if you're thinking about this and that and the other thing, then, you know, that's a dangerous recipe.

Do you know what your fastest speed was ever?

Um, the fastest I've ever been clocked at was 84.

Oh my gosh.

But, I don't know. That's so terrifying. The men have gone 100.

That's nuts. Yeah, you crash on that, you're... It's awesome.

How do you survive that? I don't know, good question. We have back protect, and we have airbags now.

No way. You didn't have that when you were 17, did you?

No, I wish I did.

Airbags.

Yeah, airbags, and your back protector, and if you are inverted in any way, it'll shut up. Yeah, it's great.

That's amazing technology.

Yeah, I know, it's awesome. I really needed that, like, 20 years ago. Yeah.

Now, you said you were nine when you met your hero, your idol, right? If your nine-year-old self was standing in front of you right now, what would you say in terms of, advised her.

I wouldn't say anything because, you know, like, you can't correct the things you've done in the past. And I think that, you know, again, everything that you experience teaches you something, whether it's good or bad. And so I wouldn't be here if I had done things differently. So I wouldn't go back and say, you know, do something differently. I would maybe just say, enjoy the ride. Yeah, that's about it.

Do you feel like you enjoyed it?

Yeah, I did. I mean, I definitely think sometimes I took myself a little too seriously, you know? I mean, but that's also part of it, you know? When you want to be, you know, the best, you have to give up a lot of things and, you know, you can't always enjoy everything as much as everybody else, but, you know, I think it was well worth it.

Yeah.

For me, one of the hardest transitions in my life has been from when I was done playing football into what's next?

My life.

Yeah.

And you've been transitioning for the last few years now. Has it been hard for you or do you feel like you've set your brand up so well that it's been easy to kind of move past the sport in a sense?

I mean, I tried as hard as I could to set myself up, you know, and I had plenty of work and plenty of things to do, but, you know, as you know, it's, you know, one into the next, your life is completely different, no matter how prepared you are and. It definitely took me until probably.

Yeah.

A few months ago.

Really?

Yeah, COVID was the best thing for me because I actually had time to slow down because what I do, I always overwork. So if there's something going on in my life, no matter what it was, I had skiing. I could always really focus on skiing and kind of push the other stuff out. And so work is just a great way to band-aid everything as well. And so from COVID I had to slow down, I had to think about things, think about retirement, which was horrible.

When did you officially retire?

February 2019.

Okay, so a year before COVID So almost two and a half years.

Yeah, so it took me, I mean, the year after, before COVID it was, Yeah, it was really hard. And then COVID was like, okay, slow down, think about things, process things, and now I'm finally at like a really good place where I'm not, you know, working to, you know, forget that I used to ski race.

Really?

Yeah.

It's weird, huh?

Kind of weird, right?

It's really weird. Now, when your last race was, was that in February then?

Yeah.

Your last race? When was the last, like, big medal that you won. Cause didn't you have like, the last race? That was it. Didn't you have a big crash like five days before or something?

Like two days before.

Two days before, you had a big crash. Now, Brad Slater asked me, asked me this question. Cause it was a big crash. This was 2019, huh?

Yeah.

How did you decide to be like, okay, I'm gonna come back after demolishing your body?

I mean, there's really no other option.

It's like, not race.

Go big or go home. Wow. You know, I didn't want to go home.

Really?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I've always been the person that if I can walk, like if I can be out there, I will be out there, you know, unless you have to, like the doctor physically stops me, you.

Know.

I'm going to be out there. I mean, I was pretty close to like, you know, not being able to walk at that point because I had torn my LCL, so I was racing with no LCL. I had braces on both knees.

Shut up.

No, it was definitely, I felt like I was being held together by duct tape. And so my last race was literally, I was like, well, this is it. This is all I got. So I'm just gonna lay everything on the table and see what happens. And it was hard because I didn't want to crash in my last race. There's no do-overs.

You knew this was gonna be your last race.

Oh, yeah, it was.

I'm done after this. My body is falling apart.

Literally. And so, you know, it was like, there's no do-overs, this is your last chance. And yeah, I just literally threw down and gave it everything I had and then, you know, third place.

It's crushing it. So how did you get your mind right though? Like, I know in your body you're like, okay, I'm just gonna toughen it up and just make it happen. But how'd you get your mind right?

Well, I actually talked to my coach that I grew up with in Minnesota the night before my race and he's like, What is 60 seconds in your whole life?

Wow.

Like, what is 60 seconds? I'm like, wow, that's a really good perspective. I'm like, it's nothing. It's like, exactly, it's nothing. So who cares? Just go. I'm like, all right, yeah. I mean, that was my mindset anyways, but it just kind of like put everything in perspective in that moment. And then he made a great point. He's 96 years old. He made a great point.

Wow. Yeah.

That's a great point. Isn't it crazy that I mean, how many Olympics did you do? Three. Four. Four Olympics. Yeah. That's nuts.

Just Masochi.

Only four times the Olympic. Isn't it crazy that so many athletes, I'm sure you know as well, train decades for 60 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds.

It's nuts. Especially, you know, qualifying, too. You have cold. You miss your track and field athlete. your competition is 60 seconds, 45 seconds, and you're a little bit off and you're done. Yeah, it's crazy.

A decade, two decades of your life. Over.

Over.

Luckily you never had to deal with that, 'cause you won a bunch of medals. But how do you think people could deal with that mindset, that mentality of, I gave my whole life to something, whether it's a relationship, a career, a project, whatever business, and it doesn't work out. How do we bounce back from that?

I mean, it's hard. I think everyone has their own process. I always felt like if I worked hard enough, things would turn around. Like whenever I had a really bad moment, I said, you know, the good guy's not gonna finish last. You know, I'm going to come back. I just have to double down, you know, reinvest everything in myself and come back. You know, sometimes you just need a little bit of a reset. Sometimes you know, you need to take a break and come back to it. Sometimes, you know, it's more of just a mind over matter. There's a lot of different ways to get from point A to point B. But I think the biggest thing is just believing in yourself, which can be very difficult to do, obviously, especially if you have like multiple setbacks in a row. But that's why I always journal.

Really?

You know, I did a lot of journaling from like a general day-to-day to when I was racing and training. I would write everything down.

Really?

Especially when things are going well. Because everyone thinks when things are going well, like this is great, it's so easy, and they forget about what they're doing, and then all of a sudden one day things aren't going well, like, Shit, how do I get back? You know? So it's good to keep, like, I always kept notes of everything, like what runs felt good, what skis felt good, what foods felt good. And then I always had a reference point to go back to.

Was that daily or was that just most days?

You were doing. No, daily.

Every day.

I have like, I have stacks of books.

Yeah. When did you start?

Probably 2005.

So you were, what, like 21 or 23 or something?

Yeah.

Okay. So for 13, 14 years.

Yeah.

14 years, you were, like, journaling consistently.

And I also, I, on and off, I journaled my workouts because I, that got a little bit excessive. It was like, there's only so much journaling one can do, but. I occasionally did do my workouts as.

Well, but... Was it more like, here's what I did, here's the feeling I had, here's what worked, what didn't work?

Yeah, like every run, you know, I would write down, you know, I tried a different line, it didn't work, I felt good, like this boot felt good, you know, this setup felt good, you know, this felt bad, I tried to do, you know, this line, it didn't work. I just, as much detail as I can I give myself, I felt like the better because it's only helping me.

Where do you think you would have been if you never journaled?

I think I would have lost my way a couple times because, you know, looking back definitely gave me confidence and thinking about, you know, remembering, you know, like how it felt to have a good run and what I was doing in that moment. You know, my own words helped me visualize that, which then translated into me finding my way again. So, you know, I don't know. I feel like-- so you would read back your journals?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

You talked about believing yourself. How did you learn to believe in yourself consistently with all the setbacks though? How do you stay in belief when it's like, okay, crash, failure, didn't make the Olympics here, whatever. I'm going through personal struggles in my life.

Whatever it might be. How do you stay in belief with yourself? I kind of always went back to, especially when I had multiple injuries, I always went back to, why am I doing this?

This.

You know, I'm doing it because I love it. I'm passionate about it. And, you know, even if I have setbacks, I still am happy every time in the starting gate. So it's kind of like always going back to the root of why I'm there. Yes, I love winning, and that's always what I wanted to do. That's. There's no response about that.

Yeah.

But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, when I'm in, when I'm. putting myself through everything that I did, you know, all the rehabs and everything, I always remembered I loved it and I wanted to go fast again. Whether I won or lost, I wanted to go fast again. So kind of keeping things in perspective, which again is like, you know, one of the reasons why I think being injured, you know, not so many times, but you know, having injuries is just a good way to have a different perspective on things.

Yeah, reflect and see, do I still love this or not? Do I want to keep going? and it sounded like you did so many times. How important was mental health for you throughout your entire career? Because it wasn't really talked about until the last five years, mental health, importance of self-care and taking care of your mindset. How important was that for you? Did you ever feel like you lost it at times or overwhelmed or stressed or depressed at certain points?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I definitely struggled with depression for a long time and I was vocal about it. not until 2012 maybe. And at that time, like, you know, no one was talking about it. I hadn't told my parents, like, I didn't tell anybody. And then I just was like, this is something I really need to do. And it definitely helped me kind of process everything and, like, feel more comfortable about it. But, I mean, you know, if being on the road is really hard, you know, you're always in a hotel room. I'm always in myself. And, you know, a lot of times, you People just see the athletes on the podium and happy and in the media, but when the cameras go off, you go back to an empty hotel room and it can be really, really hard. Again, especially because you're doing it for so long. And at the end of my career, thankfully I got my dog Lucy. So she was my companion and always was with me and definitely helped a lot. But it's like the loneliness really gets to you.

It is lonely. If you're training that hard for something, I mean your team is there and I'm sure your family are there, but at certain points you're just alone with the thoughts. It's isolating. It's very isolating. There's not many people that can probably relate to you. You have a couple peers, there's a couple other athletes you can talk to and kind of understand your coach maybe.

But... Then also, you know, it's... If you want to talk to somebody about it, they're not really going to have any sympathy for you.

Right.

Because you're doing well. Because you're making money and-- Because you're complaining about something. So, you know, success doesn't equal happiness. I mean, everyone says that, like money doesn't equal happiness, success doesn't equal happiness. You have to find that, you know, on your own. But yeah, it's just because you're successful doesn't mean you're happy. And there are definitely a lot of.

Times where I was not happy. Really?

Yeah.

Do you feel like you're happy now?

Yeah, I'm actually the happiest I've ever been. I love that. You do have a great energy about you right now. Not that I knew you before, but you have a great energy right about you right now. what brings you the most joy in your life?

I think just waking up every day and being excited about, you know, something new, new challenges, new experiences, meeting new people. I think, you know, I was so focused on skiing that I had, you know, blinders on and I didn't see, you know, a lot that was around me. And, I mean, you have to do that if you want to, you know, be successful. But I just, I get so excited every day because I'm like, what Am I gonna do today? Am I gonna wake surfing? Am I gonna go mountain biking? All these things that A, I haven't been able to do just because of my sport, and B, I just have never experienced. So I'm excited. It's a very exciting time. I'm very happy.

So it sounds like it only took you two years to kind of transition from the sport to feeling at peace about moving past it now, right? Yeah. Kind of letting it go. That's pretty quick though. most athletes hold on to a sense of loneliness or depression or the glory days.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I miss it.

Yeah.

And it's easier in the summer because no one's racing. You know, like, ask me again in February when the Olympics are going on. Oh, man. Yeah. And this, this past winter was the world championships in Cortina, which is literally.

One of my favorite places, and I.

Was commentating for NBC. Oh, how was that? Watching and commentating. I commented for, yeah, I could only do a couple races, and I I prefer to only do, I prefer the men because, you know, it's, you know.

Like I could beat these girls right now.

I'm not exactly going to put myself in a position. But, you know, it, it's like, I process it as a death, you know, like a death, you know, like it's gone and never coming back. Because the second you think, oh, well, maybe I could do a comeback, oh man. It'll really mess with your mind.

How important has rituals been in your life? Do you do a lot of rituals beyond journaling to when you said this is like a death, have you ever like put your skis in a coffin and buried it to like allow you to process or something like that?

Yeah, I actually did the opposite. I always had like my Olympic medals in my sock drawer. I never had them out. Like, I never, I mean, I had like a nice trophy case for my other, you know, trophies, but I never--.

You- probably had a whole room for all your trophies. I mean, so many of them.

I had a nice display case in Colorado, but now I moved to Utah, so I don't have, literally everything is in storage.

But you got your Olympic medals.

So my Olympic medals, I for the first time, like, got my gold medal framed. And I got all my world championship medals framed.

That's cool.

And it was like, this is a big moment. Of course. And it kind of was like, this is what I did.

You know what I mean? It's not what you're doing.

Right.

Ooh. 'Cause it was kind of like it's put away now. You know what I mean? Yeah, right?

There's a lot to celebrate, but my heart hurts.

Right?

Gosh. So it was like, it was an interesting moment to do that. It seems weird and, you know, slightly vain, but I just felt like it was like, this is what I did, and it's done now. And I can look back and be happy about what I did, but it's not what I do. And it's not who I am, certainly.

Who are you?

I'm just a nice girl from Minnesota.

You're from the Twin Cities, right? Or a small town near there? Yeah, I played football in Marshall, Minnesota for a season.

Oh, no way.

And I played in the Metrodome like four or five times.

Metrodome. Yeah, it was the old school.

Crazy. The Astro turf. Oh man, I still have like turf toe from the Astro turf in the Metrodome.

Yeah.

It was a good time. I was in Minnesota for three months. I came from my freshman year to play football at Southwest Minnesota State and I left after the winter. I was just like underground tunnels to get to class. I was like, this is nuts. Remember the first day I went to training camp in football in the summer. It must have been in August. Remember stepping on the field and literally I've never seen this in my life. The field moved with me every step. Millions of mosquitoes moving with me to the next step. I was like, what am I doing? For weeks, I'm just swatting mosquitoes.

It's Minnesota, it's mosquito, the state bird.

It's crazy.

Yeah, it's gross.

It's probably not as bad in the.

Twin Cities, but like in the farmland, it was nuts. Yeah, I mean actually when I grew up racing, it would be so cold sometimes they wouldn't let us take off our jacket and pants. We would have to race with everything that we had on. It was like, my dad would have like the car sitting like ready, warmed up.

It would literally go straight through the finish.

And into the car.

I'm curious about mental health now, because you talked about when you were lonely and kind of had some depression during the traveling time. What is it like now that you've hung up the awards, that you've gone through different challenges in your personal life, and I'm sure you're having career stuff up and down. What are you doing to stay mentally strong post-career?

I mean, similar things. I started working with a new psychologist, which was really good. He kind of focused and more like athletes and had worked with other athletes that have retired, which was, I think, really helpful.

What's his name?

Dr. Armando.

Dr. Armando.

Yeah, he's awesome. And again, we're with a lot of athletes. And he kind of also had a different technique of like processing things, which is really good.

What was the technique?

It's called brain spotting.

Okay.

But it's also, It's kind of hard to explain, but basically you sit there and you really focus on the thing that really makes you emotional, whatever that is, like retirement or, you know, whatever. And your brain has to actually process it to be able to unload it. Otherwise it's just going to sit there because he has a theory that, you know, you're like your body keeps score. Absolutely. So any time you're feeling- It's a.

Great book called the Body Keeps the Score.

Oh, really?

It's amazing. Yeah, it's called the body. It's called the body keeps the score.

Okay.

And it's not like physical, emotional trauma.

It's like stored in the body until you process and heal it. But he did say that I don't store my trauma from my crashes.

You don't? No, I don't.

You don't physically or emotionally?

Both. I mean, physically I do, obviously. Right, right.

But you don't keep it emotionally?

No. I don't know.

How'd you do that? I don't know. Short-term memory? Short-term memory. Concussions. I always watch my video. I always like, I processed it. I was like, this is what I did. This is what I need to do better. And I just moved on. The more you like, you don't address it, the more it becomes a problem.

Absolutely.

So, yeah, so he was like one of the best things that happened to me.

Really? Brain spotting.

Yeah.

So you think about the moment of sadness or frustration or... Yeah, like the.

Emotional trauma or whatever it is that, you know, is really causing you.

Yeah.

Anxiety or emotional like, you know, frustration or sadness.

So you think about it, how long do you think about it for? What's the process then?

It could be a couple hours, you.

Know.

He usually comes to my house for a few days, like we have good sessions and kind of work when we have time, when we can. It's really different, but it's really great. And yeah, he's awesome. We should look him up.

I'm gonna check him out. So what happens at the end of the 30 to 60 minutes when you're thinking about, are you supposed to put your attention on the feeling, on the event?

Everything, like visualizing what happened, how you feel. And the more you think about it, it's weird. I start with something that's emotional and it's very triggering. And then by the end, it becomes less triggering and less triggering. And then by the end, it's like, okay.

You let it go. It's when we resist something where it continues to kind of fester and be suppressed inside of us. But the more we actually pay attention to it and go through different scenarios and process it, then we can let it go. It's not as scary anymore.

Right.

So brain spotting, what's another strategy you've used to help?

Um, surrounding myself with people that, you know, really support me and for me who I am, like my sister and my family and like really good friends. I have a very small group of friends, you know, I mean, I travel all the time. I have a crazy lifestyle, but, I have really like a couple friends that I grew up with in Minnesota since I was seven years old and like were solid. and it's just, you know, spending time with those quality people, allowing yourself to be you and not having, you know, any fear of judgment. I think that really helps, you know, I don't know, be yourself and then be around other people is easier.

Did you feel the fear of judgment when you were competing ever?

Not really. I think what When I was competing, I had the most confidence. You know, like I felt like on any given day, if I was healthy, I could win. It was totally different than what I am in real life.

Really?

Yeah.

So in competing mode, you were super confident.

Yeah.

You're talking about, but then you walk off.

I harness all of my confidence that I ever had, and I put it right in the game.

Okay, but you're saying you weren't as confident in your normal life outside of competing?

No, not really, yeah.

What did that look like?

I'm more shy, like I'm not really, I feel like I'm more right now this is like media mode. Yeah, yeah. You know, and which is still me, but I'm just, I don't know, I'm, it's different when I'm at home or like I'm at a dinner or I'm at a, you know, a function. I'm not the person that's like overly, you know, talking to people. You know, I'm like, I hang back and I wait for someone to come to me. Interesting. I don't know, that's just, well, the next time I'm at an event with.

You, I'll make sure to come up to you. I'll give you a hug.

I'll say, what's up, Lindsay? I swear. I'm not like trying to be my way, like, you know, some people think that I'm just, you know, they don't want to come say hi and I just, I'm not trying to be, you know, negative. I just, you know, shy in my corner.

Do you feel like you're, you've been able to translate that confidence into your life now or do you feel like.

There are more times where you're, It's been a while. Really. But yeah, I feel like finally I've kind of spread out the confidence.

Really.

So it's not, you know, solely in one place, but it's like, you know, sprinkled everywhere.

What do you do on a daily basis to build confidence?

Honestly, I think working out is one of the best things as a woman. The greatest.

Yeah.

I thought for a while, you know, I don't want to work out. I'm retired.

Really?

I want to, you know, enjoy it because I've been working out my entire life. And I stopped working out. I was like, wow, I really feel like, you know, I felt miserable. And then I got back into it, and the more I did it, the better I felt.

Right.

And so now it's like I prioritize working out because it makes me feel so much better. And I like working out first thing in the morning because then it sets my day up for success. And I feel confident and, you know, better and clear-minded and it's just, it's awesome.

It's the greatest feeling ever.

Yeah.

And when you can look yourself in the mirror, completely naked, stripped down, and be like, at least I'm proud of the process. Maybe I'm not proud of the result right now, But I'm proud of like showing up for myself today. That feels good.

Well, I feel like no matter how you look, as long as you're putting your best effort forward, like when I work out six days a week, you know, and like the scale says something other than what I feel like I put in, like, I mean, sometimes it still bothers me. But, you know, I feel like that's not a testament to, you know, the effort that I felt like I gave and also like how that made me feel from a confidence perspective. And so you always got to keep that in mind. It's really more about, I don't know, I feel like it's more about mental.

Absolutely. Mental confidence.

Yeah.

And physical confidence. What would you say are the non-negotiables? You've been living this life for a while now at a top level. 20 plus years you've been competing and now transitioning. What would you say are the non-negotiables? Three to five things. that have helped you become successful and that will help you to continue to be successful. If you had three to five habits or things that you must do, non-negotiable in your life, to support your success, what would those be?

I mean, work ethic is general, but at the same time, if you want to succeed at anything that you're doing in life, you have to be willing to put in the work. and make those sacrifices. I honestly feel that the most successful people aren't the most talented. They're not the smartest. They're the people that are willing to go the extra mile, that the other people are not. What else? I think, you know, rituals or habits that, you know, help you, you know, get to the place where you can work hard. So whether that's working out or again, journaling or going on a walk or meeting your friend once a week or whatever it is, finding habits like healthy habits like that that put you in a mental place that allows you to then work harder and again, then be more successful. And then surround yourself by people that believe in the same things that you do. So that will help facilitate your success and not bring you down. You know, I think it is oftentimes really hard to actually find people that want you to succeed.

Really?

I think.

Why is that you think?

That's just human nature, I think. Or jealous or... Yeah, I mean, and honestly, I haven't experienced that a lot, but sometimes it like creeps up on you and you're like, wow, you really didn't want me to succeed.

Really?

Yeah, so it's just kind of... Like.

People you've hired on your team or friends or the peers.

My internal team. They're good. We're tight, you know, they've been with me since I was 16. I'm a very loyal person. Like we're a very tight-knit group and I like to keep it that way. But yeah, there's tears or friends. Yeah, coming in that, you know, pretend to be one thing and they're not. And so it's good to make sure you keep yourself surrounded by people that want to see you succeed and will help you get there. if you have to make a sacrifice, they're going to pick up the slack for you.

Right.

Because you can't do everything alone. That's the other thing.

Right.

What were your coaches and your team like when you were competing? Do you think you could have been as successful on your own or without the team?

You need a team. Yeah, absolutely need a team. And so it goes with everything that you're doing, whether it's in business or sports or whatever, you can't do everything by yourself. So surround yourself by people that will help you. You know, my coaches were amazing. I had the best ski technician in the world, Heinz. He literally was just as invested in my success as I was. I mean, when I won, he would cry, you know?

That's beautiful.

It was great.

Did you cry too?

I cried because he was crying. It was like a thing. I'm like, Heinz, why are you crying? You're making me cry. And, you know, he was so nervous when I crashed. you know, like it just feels really good to know that someone's that invested in what you're doing and they're putting just as much effort into what they're doing to make you succeed as you are. Yeah. It's like me working in the gym, you know, he's in the ski room tuning my skis for hours on end. A lot of people don't know that about ski racing. It's your equipment is a huge part of your success. So if I didn't have him, if I didn't have my coaches, I didn't have my physical therapist, Lindsay Winninger, who helped me get back from all my injuries. if I didn't have all those people, I couldn't do what I did.

Team is everything. What's the greatest lesson your coach taught you?

It was my coach from Minnesota, the 96-year-old. He said, I think it was like 10 or 11, he said, I'm fast the way I am, so don't change it. A lot of people at that time in my career tried to change my technique. And even my dad was like, you know, this isn't, she's not gonna succeed if she stays like this. And he's like, no, this is her natural talent. Stay with what you have. Don't try to be someone else. You know, you're fast the way you are. And so I kind of, you know, morphed that into life as well. You know, it's like you are who you are and that's what makes you special. So stick with it.

What I had to to do is work on the basics and the fundamentals. Well, they relied on their athleticism and their natural ability. And because I stick to the fundamentals, it just caught up to me. And then my body, you know, my knees stopped hurting. I grew into my frame. And you tacked on the athletic. Exactly. Then it was gaming. Wow.