The Psychology Research That Proves You Are Not the Problem — Your Environment Is | Angela Duckworth
In this extended interview, psychologist Angela Duckworth argues that grit and effort alone are insufficient for success; the surrounding environment—mentors, culture, physical settings, and intimate relationships—plays a decisive role. She introduces the classic "fundamental attribution error" research of Nisbett and Ross to explain why people often overlook situational constraints. Duckworth shares a detailed personal narrative about her marriage to Jason Duckworth, describing how a prolonged period of trying harder without progress signaled a need to change the situation. The couple’s turn to individual and couples therapy, cultural expectations from Duckworth’s Chinese heritage, and the practical "three‑box" framework (Situation → Thought → Response) illustrate how altering the environment can reset thoughts and behaviors. Throughout, the conversation weaves empirical findings, anecdotes, and actionable advice on recognizing when effort becomes counter‑productive, the importance of supportive mentors, and the role of intentional relationship choices in sustaining grit.
Chapters
Effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout.
A psychologist, a professor, and a bestselling author that sold over 5 million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only Dr. Angela Duckworth.
If you are trying And then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships. I think that is the time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing and try harder, but that I think is a signal. And I think I missed that signal.
When does someone know that they should change their environment?
There's this research that I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say.
I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world, but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams?
I don't. I think the answer to that is no. Grit is great. I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think The final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort, but effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. I think if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as like the physical environment that you need, I mean, if you're a swimmer, like how long is the pool, right? Like, and how heated is the pool? These seemingly trivial sometimes, I guess, like things that are outside of you, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout.
When does someone know that they should change their environment?
I don't think we know as soon as is optimal, to be honest. You know, there's this research that I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say in this book. I wanna credit Dick Nisbett and Lee Ross, these 2 psychologists who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error. And in particular, this guy Lee Ross had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation. So you ask this question like, when do we know it's time to change our situation? I'll tell you about what he found, which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that, you know, It can kind of be like the water of a fish. It's like, I think you should be swimming over here, but you've so habituated to it, you're—
You're so used to it.
You're so used to it that you're blind to it. His personal experience was he was getting his PhD and he's at a roundtable, and of course he knows his research well, it's all he's been doing. But the inquisitors, these professors who are basically there asking him incredibly random and sort of like abstruse questions like, well, what was the wavelength of light you used in this experiment? And, you know, honestly, instead of feeling smart, he felt stupid. And instead of feeling like an expert, he felt like a total rookie. And he passed, right? But that wasn't the end of the story. So then he becomes a professor at Stanford, and now he's on the, literally on the other side of the table, right? So now there's this PhD student and they're defending their thesis, and he's the one like asking all the clever questions. And, you know, you can go through anything and be like, oh, on page 168, you say like, what did you mean by that? And suddenly he's like—
And they're like, I don't know.
Right. The student's like, no.
They feel stupid.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're falling apart. And yeah, the student felt stupid and then he felt smart. And I think from that personal experience and then a whole lifetime of research, he found that so often we'll be like, oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot. We think it's the person. It's really the situation. So he later wrote a book called The Person and the Situation. It was not a bestseller. It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis. It's an academic book, and the book says the situation is incredibly powerful, but like gravity, it's invisible and ignorable. And so, I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? And I think oftentimes, like, not soon enough, like, not soon enough. Like, maybe I should be, like, on a different team. Maybe a different coach, maybe a different zip code, right? Maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should be set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way— maybe my nightstand isn't set. We are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore.
It's interesting you're saying this because I had a guy who just graduated who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college. And, He was asking me, like, if you could go back to my age, 22, and if there's anything you would change, is there anything? And I'm like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason. But I'm like, listen, I wish I would have married the right person sooner. I wish I would have been— because I was in multiple long-term relationships.
Yeah.
And it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. And I don't make— I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. Like, it's not their fault.
Yeah.
I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them longer than I knew I should have.
Yeah.
I go, the only thing is like, you're going to be tempted. You're a good-looking guy. You're fit. You're this. You've got passion. You're smart. You've already got a great, like, a job opportunity. And like, just make sure you date the right girl and date with the intention to marry. Don't just fool around because it might be fun in the moment, but it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious how, in your research or in your perspective, If you have the right proximity and the right situation and the right environment and grit, but you're with the wrong person intimately, how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail?
You know, I'm married. I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth. And it's not because— and it's not— it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So, like, I will tell you, and I also wish I had married him earlier, but—
How long have you been married?
I've been married, I don't know, I always lose track. Definitely over 25 years.
Okay, well that's fine.
Like 25 plus, right? So we're like, that's what, silver anniversary? I think we're like post-silver anniversary. I did try though, by the way. I've always dated according to your philosophy, which is like, are we not getting married?
Right.
Like, yeah, like next. I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was like 4 weeks.
Wow.
And there were a lot of them. But I did meet Jason Duckworth. But let me say that I think when you talk about your situation, like, yeah, it's like, you know, what's in your cup? It's like, you know, do you have fruit on your counter? It is also, and obviously, most importantly, I think, like the person that you're with. I cannot tell you how, like, I think Angela Duckworth is great. Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth, like so much greater. Really?
So this wasn't all you?
When I did finish this book, which was a very long, hard road, which we could talk about or not, but it was like, I think I have never been so humbled as in the 5-year journey of writing this book. Not just the most intellectually challenging work, honestly, the most personally and emotionally challenging work. When it finally was done, I could only use we, not I. I was like, we have a book. Like, now we're going to get published. One of the reasons, and you tell me, I'd love to hear more about your marriage. I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being like me trying to do things. I mean, I really do think of like, you know, I have to write an op-ed with Jason.
Really?
Yeah. I mean, at like, you know, he's not a psychologist, he's a real estate developer, by the way, residential real estate.
But he's your psychologist. Because he's married to you in a sense. Like, he understands you psychologically, emotionally.
He understands me. He, um, you know, he's my intellectual sparring partner. I think that the, the, the idea that like I am just myself and then like occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to like how important he is. And again, like going back to like you and your situation, I will go all Eastern on you because I am of Chinese descent. So like I have a little bit of the right. Sure. Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came from China and they, my dad in particular would talk about how different it was to come from the East and the West. And so I will tell you what I think my father was saying to me when he said like, when you are in the West, it's like you're an individual and you have a resume and a career and yes, you have relationships with a romantic partner, with friends, with society, But it's your dream. But it's your dream. You're the silhouette. He was like, in the East, speaking personally, he was like, that's not how we think of it. You're part of a whole. You're part of a society. Your relationships are not separate from you. So yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in the most profound way, I'm struggling to find the words for it, is so much part of Of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one. So I—
That's what I mean, your whole career, like your success as a professor and all the awards you've received and the books and the sales, like everything.
Like everything.
Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner?
I would not be where I am if I didn't have this marriage.
But you had the talent, you had the smarts, the skills, the other relation, the network. Would you Why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner?
I'm going to answer it. And I also just want to add, I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said, I mean, he came to me and he was like, I always look for grit. And I said, great, so do I. I asked him, what else do you look for? He said, do you want to really know? I was like, he's like, off the record, I look for somebody who's in a very stable, strong, you call it a romantic relationship, right? Like marriage would be the most common form of such a relationship.
Yes.
And I was like, oh, that is so interesting. So let me just say that I'm not alone in like believing that, you know, the two of you are like a unit, you know? Like it's, it's not even possible to really conceive a— I mean, I will answer you, but I'd love to hear what, like what you would say to the same question. Um, I, you know, Do feel like at some point during the day when we part ways, we have breakfast, and then I go off to work as a psychologist and I'm on conference calls he's not on, and I sit and stare at a blank page and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously I'm also independent. I don't think any of this diminishes, like, oh, I don't feel like I take credit.
Mm-hmm.
But everything I do, I think of us trying to embark on this challenge. I didn't know how to open this book, honestly. I was like, how do I explain to people the power of the situation? Because the situation is so abstract. It's like, how do I explain to them that it's everything and everyone around them?
It's your environment, it's your room, it's the mentors around you, the school.
And maybe I could have called you, Lewis, but you weren't around and I'm not married to you, right? So I'm sitting there struggling and And Jason said, why don't you write about our marriage? And I was like, okay.
He just wanted you to brag about him. You know, that was the—
He did ask actually just the other day, he's like, have you been telling people that like—
How amazing I am? Yeah.
He did say in so many words, I was like, oh, I was like, I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough. But it was such a generous act. And the reason is that he didn't want me, or wasn't suggesting that I write about like all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. I mean, this is like the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all. Wow. What happened? And yeah, so I'll tell you the story. And again, I think it's just so indicative of how we are doing this in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth, I was in my 20s. I had this dating philosophy, it was like, we're not getting married next, not getting. But when I met him, I was like, let's do it.
Really?
Let's go.
First couple days or first couple weeks, you're like, hey.
Couple hours. I had a dream the first night. And I wrote it down in my journal so I have written evidence that this is true. I'm not making this up. I had the dream that we were getting married. I was walking down the aisle and I couldn't see the groom. And then he turned around and it was this guy I just met named Jason. And so I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was—
Crazy?
Crazy. Yeah. I guess that's a natural response.
You were what, 23, 25?
I think 27? I was 26, I think. I think I just turned 26. I just turned 26. I was like 26 and 2 days. And so we had a head over heels romance. There were some ups and downs, but oh my God, I was in love. So that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter whatever. It ended up being chapter 5, not chapter 1.
Yeah.
But he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis. He thought it would be a great way to explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Everything was going great. He's like you and he's like me. Like, try to outwork us, right? It's like, you know, like— Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let's go.
Right? Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room, like, you know, but like, watch me work, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, so, that is Jason Duckworth, and that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you shared with me that that's your personal story. So, when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh my God, let's go. And it was working. Like, trying harder was our life philosophy. And it worked until it didn't.
Until exhausted and burned out and overwhelmed.
So, yeah. So let's see. So, and maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever, but I don't think that happens for most people. So we get married and he's starting his real estate career. And you know more about business than I do despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know that, you know, I'm a professor, I'm on tenure track. He's a real estate developer. 2008 financial crisis. I know so little about finance and economics that I gave him the copy for this chapter and he was like, I think you got the— sweetie, I think you got the date wrong for the financial crisis that sent the United States and the rest of the world into a global recession. It was the worst housing market in recent American history.
Yeah.
So here he is starting out as a very ambitious, I'll outwork you real estate developer in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is, and this, like, I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant. So he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like, I will try harder and that is my superpower, I will work my way out of every problem, has an incredible vulnerability, which is like you go from 60-hour work weeks To eighty to yeah yeah to a hundred a hundred right and I counted double it yeah so right I know people are like oh you know if you really added it up I'm like oh yeah trust me I added them up so he's working like crazy and um and honestly like becoming incredibly unhappy like miserable would not be the right no miserable wouldn't exactly the right adjective for it I'm you know trying to be what my mother who was raised in China like raised me to be which is the Perfect wife.
That's impossible.
I know. Well, I had a lot of therapy since this all happened, but at the time, 20-something Angela, head over heels in love and raised to be a perfect wife. So, I'm working harder. So, I'm trying to get tenure, but also we had these 2 girls and I need to serve them organic fruit and keep up my Pilates routine, but also I've got this husband. And, when you are raised as I was raised, Like, Lewis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation and she, with a tear in her eye, said, I'm so proud of you. You're ready to be a wife. And so for me, my husband's unhappiness was my failure.
Oh.
So then I just worked harder. I was like, I'll dust bus, you know, at 5 in the morning. I'll do— so I will make everything right and my husband will be happy. But then, so we were both just digging ourselves into into like, I guess, kind of a foxhole, 'cause that's what it felt like. We were just like, you know, we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work. And all the happiness, I mean, the joy, like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met, but I couldn't even remember that at this point.
Oh.
And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try-harder people, and we had to reckon with the reality That trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner.
Hmm.
It didn't work for us and we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. I mean, to rescue ourselves.
Hmm.
And so, yeah, I belatedly in a way like came to understand that working harder in a losing situation Is just a recipe for, you know, exhaustion, burnout, and misery.
Wow. Now, there's a couple things I relate to there. One, you know, I was— I told you before that I was in multiple long-term relationships, not married, but just in long-term dating relationships, committed relationships. And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, this was not— we're not supposed to continue. But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up.
You don't wanna quit.
I was like, I'm going to figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy, whatever it was. And I repeated that in like 4 or 5 different relationships.
Yeah.
And not most people, but I would say some people after 5, 10 years of a marriage, until they get to that point, they would say, you know what, we've lost the love, we've lost this. Like we've, we've burned ourselves to the ground.
We tried everything.
Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up. Even if we have kids. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to make their decisions, but why did you feel like that? ending the relationship and removing yourself from the situation. Yeah, was not the right thing to do at that time for you.
So there's some subtlety here, right? Because it's like, okay, so what I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela. Like, why isn't breaking up like the right thing? And like you, I'm like, far be it from me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life because I don't know anything about it. But I can speak personally, and there is some nuance here because Divorce was a way to change the situation, right? And I thought like I would be a happy, you know, single mom and then, you know, he happier, right? Like, let's just start over.
So you thought about this? You thought about like, what would that look like if we were—
I took him out for a walk and I was like, and out of the blue I was, you know, like all in one moment I was like, okay, I know you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night and I don't wanna be in this marriage anymore. So, oh, it was not, uh, how did he take that? It was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I don't know that I did it justice. Like, I don't think there's anything more devastating. He's like a child of divorce.
Like, I really don't think— Oh man, the heartbreak.
There is anything I could have said that was more wounding than that. I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you could think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. It was devastating. And I won't lie, part of the reason why we're still married is grit. 'Cause he was a little bit like, oh no, I'm not done. What do you need from me? Yeah, we'll do it. So there was a little bit of grit, but I will tell you what happened and why it is that getting situated, I guess there were other ways to do it, but I'm glad that we went the path we did. So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to a radical change and just splitting up. I was also raised not to have therapy. I remember my father and my mother were— I have siblings and there was a moment in time in my childhood—
No one talked about emotions or feelings or—
Verboten. And there was a moment in time where I think the school, somebody reached out and was like, your family needs to go to therapy. And by that I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode, it's like a sepia-colored photograph. It's a little Fuzzy, but I remember being on this couch with my family and when you were a kid with my yeah and your parents were there and my dad like stormed out and said like you know very like unrepeatable things about like the therapist. So like I did not I did not grow up thinking like therapy is great like therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis, Jason you know said. Whatever pleaded said, like therapy. Like you need therapy. I need therapy, and we need therapy.
And how did you respond?
I I was like incredibly resistant to the idea. You know, like also like when you when you feel like you've already gone to the place where you're like, oh by the way, I thought I just like I've thrown it all out, and like there's no there's no solution here.
No coming back.
Yeah, no coming back. But maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that I was like, oh but my husband wants me to go to therapy, so I'll still like. We went, and that was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to like help people like you and who has seen, has like pattern recognition. So I, you know, found this therapist, her name is Dee, she's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist, we went through another therapist.
So you did it individually and then together?
We did like, we had the biggest therapy bills like in, well, maybe not in history, but there were 3 therapists for 2 of us. us in one marriage, and that wasn't a great ratio for me. And we were, you know, just— it was a huge amount of our annual income. Time, energy, money. Time, energy, you know, these like 2 little girls who were raising, like, you know, grandparents like taking shifts so that we could each go to therapy, that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change, but like you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is like a whole different world from like you together Like vulnerable enough to be like, I guess it's time for therapy. Like, I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you except for if there's this third person in the room. Like it did, it wasn't, and it wasn't the only thing we did, but it was like part of the turning point. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, asking for help I think is a big part of getting situated.
It is. Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season?
I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because 'Cause you know what I've also found in my research, Lewis? People aren't gritty when they're not happy. So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy. And I—
But maybe getting a divorce and getting outta the situation, maybe you would've felt a sense of freedom.
Well, there is the road not taken. Yes.
You know, it's like, ah, maybe I don't have anything. I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like, oh, changing myself. Like maybe it'd just been, I can be who I want and find someone else.
So I like nearly memorized The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. You know, like, you know, 2 roads diverged in a yellow wood. And there I, the weary traveler, stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth. I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end, it's like basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is who hasn't thought about, what if I hadn't stayed with you? Or what if I had stayed in Ireland? Or whatever it is. You just have these thoughts. What if I'd stayed in football? You have these other roads and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I'm trying not to swear, but I fucking love this road and I so, so fucking love my husband. Like, I don't know, but I will say this, the thoughts that I had in my head, like, this is ruined, like, it's no longer a fairy tale, like, I can't make you happy, therefore I'm a failure as a wife, like, we are not meant to be, those thoughts are not true. And it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts too. Well, you are miserable and I am miserable. Facts.
Yeah.
It doesn't have to be that way. It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person or that I am congenitally unable to be a good wife. Like, there were so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation, that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right? And I think one of the things I would really do, like, we've had a conversation before this where I said, I'm slightly uncomfortable, like, being on book tour, but there is something I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology, and that is my job, right? I'm not a real estate developer, I'm a psychologist. In psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career, and I think is important to deliver to the world. And it gets back to, well, how does this all fit together? There's just 3 boxes if you wanna draw them on a piece of paper. And the 3rd box is like how you respond, how you feel. Are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident? Are you working 10 hours that day or 2 hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box 3.
And that's how you respond to what happened.
That's how you're responding, right?
Your response.
And people can be different, right? You're like, oh, Ryan, John, Sally, they stayed later and Sue didn't. Okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box 2? Box 2 are your thoughts. So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like cognitive therapists work on—
Thinking therapists.
Your thoughts. Like what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident? Like you're feeling like an imposter. Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. And like, let's try to under— you know, you don't think this marriage is gonna work. You feel whatever you feel like, it's the thought. So cognitive therapy, like you go and a therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts, right? So I think that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness, like I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I wanna say, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too, but I wanna say that there's another box. It's like, what, okay, that's box 2 and box 3. You know what box 1 is? Box 1 is your situation. Like, who are you with? Like, are you with a therapist or you're not with a therapist? I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. There were also professional changes we make. We changed box 1, we changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts.
Mm-hmm.
When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior. So I feel unapologetic and unequivocal that like people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think is influenced by your situation.
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The one who asked you for advice?
Yeah, yeah.
I love this question, by the way. I already love this guy. I've never met him.
Yeah, nice guy. I was telling him like, listen, you know, everything I went through, all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today and this and that, you know. And, I'm grateful for all the experiences, but I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships. And, I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. And, I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better sooner.
Yeah.
Because now being married for and with Martha for the last 5 years, It has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy, that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel like better, right? It's given me more and more energy, given me more confidence, all these things, and less stress.
Yeah.
And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life. And I make, you know, and I don't respond like you said in the third box as well.
Right. You're not your best self.
Not your best self. You're like a 6 out of a 10 every day, or like a 4 out of a 10.
So you're like a different Lewis because like it's Lewis and Martha?
100%. Yeah, 100%. And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking, to just act, oh, we're in love and this is amazing and it feels good. And let's just not ask the deep questions and let's It feels good being around each other. So early on when we were dating, um, in the first couple months, I was like, listen, we're having an amazing time, and it seems like— it feels— so many things are lining up. We're like, this is amazing, right? But I said, for whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy.
Really?
Yes.
And at the beginning of your relationship?
Beginning of the relationship. Because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never worked out.
So I said, hey, we have the tail.
And I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great. And then we move in in a year or a year and a half or whatever it is. And then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with Jason, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy of the beginning.
Yeah.
And you can't find it because you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you hate each other, whatever it is. And I was like, I don't want to get to that point.
Right.
I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning. And we're really honest with each other.
Right.
And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out.
Yeah.
But at least—
Which is great, right?
I'd rather do that in 3 to 6 months than 3 to 6 years.
God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome.
It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said, absolutely, let's do it. Which I thought she did.
Also a good sign.
Great sign.
Such a good sign. Yeah.
And we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings, little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger. so quickly and it wasn't always comfortable. And there were some moments that were vulnerable and it was like, oh, this doesn't feel good. But we were able to work through it with a mentor, a third party. Yeah. That's all they do.
Yeah.
Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional. It was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship.
How long did you go to this?
Probably about a year.
Wow.
And the first year, and it was just like we appreciated each other.
Genius.
Because I know we're in this together and we've done this work early. And we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to. And it's been the most beautiful 5-year experience with someone ever.
Yeah.
And again, we've faced challenges. We have adversity we're going through, different stuff. Like, we just had twin girls 10 months ago, challenges at hospital. All these different things are happening.
Yeah.
But the fact that we created almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability, of we're in this together, in the beginning has created a better relationship now. Again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore.
So I have never met anybody who was like, oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like—
But I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart-wrenching for me that didn't work out, that I was like, My ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation you talk about in your book.
Right.
And the people that we surround ourselves with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers, those are the environments, in my mind, that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Yes, those are—
Those are great.
Yes, those are great.
Those are also elements.
Yes, those environments are crucial. But if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you, that you're pouring into and you feel like it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you. So I feel like the people situations that you're in—
Those are the most important.
Are the most emotionally important. And everything else as well, like stack everything you can, like you talk about in your book. It's the people that hold you back. And so many people I've interviewed, they're like, make sure you choose the person you marry wisely.
Really? Has that come up as a theme?
Yeah, because it impacts everything.
It's not just venture capitalists?
And I asked my therapist this, who works with a lot of very financially successful kind of older men, right? Who are maybe in their 50s, 60s, and 70s, right? And she has a lot of high-profile clients and things like that. And I'm asking her, You know, after like a year and a half or a couple years of doing this, and I was doing individual therapy and then her with couples therapy as well. When I did this session at one point, she was like, so what do you want to talk about? I was like, man, I just feel so good. Like, and it was just happening every time. I was like, I don't really know how anything to talk about.
Yeah.
But I go, how about this? Let's go into the future. Future Lewis, say, you know, everything works out for me, everything I want. And, you know, I accomplish everything and all my dreams come true. And I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's going to be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years? Based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients.
You asked her this question?
Yes.
You asked your therapist this question?
I said, what are your clients coming to you and what is their biggest challenge? And they say all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation. Their marriage. They've cheated with someone. They've strayed from the family. They've allowed their power, their money, their success—
Their ego.
To get to them, whatever. And they made mistakes that ruined their life. So they ruined their situation that's a good thing for something else maybe more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their—
Repair.
They eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be. And it's too late. And so she was like, just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow. You're going to continue to succeed.
Right. And you're going to be more successful and the temptations are going to be greater. Exactly.
So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together.
Right.
And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they get too successful and then they forget I guess they forget about who they are, you know?
So, so look, you know, you can be like, what's more important, like the people, places, or things? I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? Your relationships, like first and foremost, like is right, because they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're like helping you remember who you are, or they're distracting you from like your— so I think I'll agree with you on that. Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering, but like if there's one—
And imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you. Like—
We worked in the same company. This is how we met. So, we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey Consulting. And he's very proactive, like, like, you know, Boy Scout class president type. And so, he's like, I'm gonna organize a dinner for all the people who are gonna go work at McKinsey Consulting in New York City.
Smart.
I'm a little less like, yeah, great.
Terrific.
And very, you know, that's why you need people to like organize your high school reunion. Like, he, he, he's your guy. So, he organizes this dinner, and I meet him, yeah, fall in love. But the point is that we both went to McKinsey, and so we were, you know, like in the same track. And I wasn't more successful than him, but I will say that—
You're smarter than him.
Better looking, more charming. I wore shorter skirts, I will say that. I got that feedback in a performance review. They're like, yeah, you know.
He liked that, but not—
Apparently not my engagement manager. But, So here's the thing, being a successful person I think is hard. Being a successful woman in a marriage I think can be hard for the husband. He frequently reminds me that he is the son of a, like his parents divorced, and so he was raised by both his father and his mother, but like not at the same time. And his mother Sharon is this incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. She became a school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that like, I should be more articulate about this, Lewis, but maybe is it because it's emotional or is it because it's hard to describe? The support that this man gives me, it's not that he tolerates my success, it's not that he is capable of managing his own ego. And by the way, he is successful too, but I think he would point to my success. It is true love when it's like, I assume that the greater That Lewis is, like, the more fulfilled Martha herself is. Like, it, it is that way on my, you know, on, on my side of this marriage. Like, I feel like, you know, like, like he might enjoy my success more than I do. Um, I, I, I think that that's—
Does he speak good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on?
I think he is, uh, A, a lot more, um, like he has ballast, you know? I mean, I get like, Very excited about things. Like, uh, and he has a steadiness. There's like a, you know, there's like a solidity to Jason Duckworth. Um, I think he also is like ethically and morally— like, I don't know a lot of people, I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of a relationship, but I also can say I don't know a lot of people like, like Jason is actively trying to be a better person. Like, he actively prays to be a better person.
Yeah.
Like, he asks the question, like, is this the most ethical way? You know, like, we're now in our 50s. Like, is this the, ethical way to be using our money, using our time. So I have this person in my life— Wow. —who has unconditional— it's not like in any marriage you're always happy with the other person, but this unconditional commitment and unconditional support. But then also he's this paragon of integrity. I am not an immoral person, but I don't think on You know, like, I don't wake up in the morning and pray like, oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean, I try to be nice, but I think he's at another level.
Right, right.
And yeah, think about the— okay, so like, let's assume that Robert Frost is right and our life is a road and we, and you know, sometimes we come to like a fork in the road and we could be with this person or that person. We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We could move or not move. We'll never know the roads not taken. There's not only one road not taken, there are uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, I could not have come this far. Like, I wouldn't even, you know, I shared with you this, you know, my mom, by the way, I think would be okay with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91 and I think she looks back and she was like, what was I talking about when you were at college graduation? Like—
Grabbing your shoulder and going—
Probably not the thing to say. Like, you know, I'm glad you're, you know, you could be a wife. But I know this road that I've been on, and I know that there's no way I would get this far. And one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, be a good wife, be a good wife.
Culture, yeah.
You know, like, make him happy. Like, literally, I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like, my mom, again, not the 91-year-old I have now, but back then she was like, when he comes home, play some soft music. And like, as if he were a lion or something, it's like, play some soft music and like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food And so I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today, who's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go, like, I'm gonna be as great a psychologist as I can be. I wanna like, I wanna do everything I can. I don't think I would've given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like, I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road and this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to go.
Wow.
Right? Because yeah, like, and we're so happily married. And you know, this ring, so this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right? And then we got married, we got this ring, and I have a third ring. And after our marriage crisis, uh, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like, you know, here we are.
And therapy.
So much therapy, right? Well, that was part of the better situation, right? Exactly.
You reimagined the new situation.
Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like, it leads to an even better situation, 'cause like now you're, you know, now you're making better decisions across the board, especially This third ring is like the ring to celebrate our second marriage, like the sort of, we are not just gonna try harder individually or even together to— we will when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know. You asked me at the very beginning, do we know on schedule? And I said, I think we often know too late. But here's a way to know. If you are trying and then you're trying harder and then you're trying harder still, And you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything, you're like, more effort is not producing more results, I think that is the time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder. But that, I think, is a signal. And I think I missed that signal. I was just like, oh, just like keep going. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem with the superpower, right? Like it, like it's a kryptonite you don't realize.
Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you, you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't— maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy. And you guys just kind of, we're just gonna stick this out for the kids or whatever. Like, yeah, we're just gonna stay in this.
You're asking me to like think through this counterfactual, right?
Yeah. Just go back, go back in time. Yeah.
Go back in time. But also imagine that like, yeah. Yeah.
And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together. And let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts Would that have hurt your, your experience in life and, and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would've been able to overcome that with that type of situation?
Well, like, you like literally just described my mother's marriage to my father, right? So I know what that looks like because that was her. So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good looking. Like, I, I watched these like old movies of them and I was like, holy My mother was like a female, you know, like she was a goddess. I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Loren. And my dad actually, to my shock and awe, was like actually pretty good looking too. And, you know, he had a big white convertible. I mean, they had this like very head over heels romance, much like Jason and I. But you just described really, I think, what their marriage was like. So my mother immigrated to this country knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She wanted to be an artist and she thought she could do it, make her dream come true in America, right? The land of opportunity.
So she changed her situation, moved countries.
She changed her situation, which I think is good.
Step one.
Step one. Yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency, but her situation wasn't perfect. So she moved from Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because as a woman, you can go to school in the United States. Like she went to great art schools here.
But there was challenges cuz she didn't know the language and other challenges.
And then she overcame them. Yeah. Cuz she's also gritty. Okay. So, um, okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by YK, cuz he's like a very unpronounceable tonal Chinese name. Let's call him YK cuz that's what everyone did. In marrying YK, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage, like a very traditional Chinese marriage because though they were in the United States, They were both raised in China in the 1930s.
Wow.
So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to, to marry a good wife. And he, he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome maybe, but mostly 'cause she was beautiful and kind, but not 'cause she was like a great artist and like ambitious and, and smart. 'Cause like my mom was every bit as, you know, is as every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's now passed. So when you describe this marriage, like, Angela, go back in time.
Yeah.
Imagine, imagine greatness and the ceiling that, you know, how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home?
Yes.
If you had somebody who was giving you like, you know, doubts and so forth.
Yes.
And was like actually resentful. I was like, I don't have to imagine it, Lewis, because that is the marriage my mother had. So what happened to this? Like, and my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like, she was a prodigy. Like, I saw the paintings. She still has them that she made when she was a teenager, and I really think she had a gift. Wow! So she had a gift, and she had grit, and she was in America. Like what's you know what's wrong? What's wrong? Well, the trifecta. But I guess there are four things because like she didn't have she didn't have the marriage. Right. So so my dad was not mean and not a bad person.
Kind of dismissive or kind of just like not supportive, right? Like that like don't do that stuff.
You're supposed to be doing well. Like you know what? Like Let's start a wholesale needlepoint company, um, because it will make money.
Yes. Practical.
Do you know what needlepoint is?
Needlepoint meaning, what is that?
Okay. It's a handicraft. It's not—
I thought it was like sewing, like, uh—
It's a version of sewing.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
You get this canvas.
Yeah.
It's like—
It's like artwork needlepoint. Is that what you mean?
Yeah. Like the canvas is usually like painted with like, I don't know, like a unicorn or like your dog or something. Right. Or it could have like a saying, like, you know, like home is where the heart is. And Like it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted and needlepoint is this—
Big string in there. Like, uh, yeah.
So this is like, you know, by the way, this is partly why their like business idea didn't take off. But anyway, like nobody does needlepoint. So like you, you like, if it's green, you stitch green. Yes. And if it's yellow, you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad, it's like not evil, but when you are married to somebody, your job is not to make them happy, but your job is to help them realize their dreams. And my dad, did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. She wanted, he like, they became small business owners. I mean, he had a career, he was a chemist, but he gave her this assignment, which is like—
Like a side hustle.
Yeah, full-time side hustle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she ran this business, this like needlepoint business where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like, you know, like whatever, you know, home is where the heart is, like whatever it is, like unicorns. And then, you know, getting other people to paint them.
Oh wow.
And then selling them to stores and not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself. Like a real painter. And that was their whole marriage until he died. And then he did die. And that is when my mom started painting again.
Come on.
No. Yeah. Like, she was so—
So how many years were they together until he died?
Over 50. Gosh, I must not have a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many years? It's okay.
Definitely over 50. So 50 years.
50 plus.
50 plus years.
I've been married 25 plus. It's a big gap.
She did all the hard work to get to this country to start pursuing it, but then And not in a negative way or a bad way, she was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess.
And in that situation, if you wanna contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner.
Yes.
He was many things, but supportive about art, he was not. Curious, like I grew up in that house, we never went to the art museum. Like there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like, you know, one of the greatest art museums in the world. We never went to the art museum. My mom had one painting that I used to— it had cherry blossoms and there was another painting that had boats. Those were the only 2 paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and life is long and you learn a lot, and now my 91-year-old mother looks back and says, I should have said something. I should have done something. I asked her why there weren't more paintings. Like when we were growing up. And she was like, well, you know, I was taking care of your father. He was like my 4th child. And she said, you know, sometimes I would paint something, like, 'cause I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner. And, uh, and I would put it up on the wall and nobody would say anything. And especially your father, like he would walk by a new painting for months and—
Never acknowledge it.
Not say anything because he didn't notice. Like, you didn't notice. So like, I don't know Martha, but I already love— like, that's changed your life.
Yeah.
You know, I think that's— Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, sounds great, how do I get one? But even knowing that like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you. Like, I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a poem about like the road not taken, you know, like, okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like, I mean, Like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road. Yes. Like, right. And it's changed me.
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And research shows, right? And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth, but Angela, the professor and psychologist who can tell you what— so one of the really surprising things about confidence, and I think, you know, what, thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like, The theme of confidence, of belief, like I believed I could do it, right? Believing you can do something always precedes doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do. Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence.
Your partner is telling you you can't do this.
Exactly. Okay, so—
It's exhausting.
So I don't know in the marriage context, I'm sure this is true, but in other contexts it's been shown in research, so much of your belief comes from other people's belief.
Just saying, I believe in you.
It's borrowed.
Just saying, hey, I believe you can do it.
Yeah, and then like acting that way and so forth. So like how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you? It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion effect. It's actually appropriately, since we ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason, So it's not a true story and it's not a research study, but the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there's a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion, and he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it.
Mm-hmm.
And he so believes that this statue is real that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study's called the Pygmalion effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like it will transform them, it will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California and they're just going through elementary school. And before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist named Bob Rosenthal who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, self-confidence comes from other people, that you need to be in these relationships because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it? So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he is like, oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. I gave them the like Harvard test of inflected reasoning. I mean, he made this up.
Yeah.
He made up the test, he made up the title, but it sounded very fancy and he was a Harvard professor. And he said, and these are your bloomers. And it might not be obvious on day 1 of school, and it may not be obvious on day 10, but like before the end of the school year, you'll see that they bloom because they are gifted.
Wow.
So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right? Experimentally. Well, just waited to see what happened. And sure enough, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great. And even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better by a lot by the end of the year. And so the Pygmalion effect is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth is not just because of Angela Duckworth.
Hmm.
It's because of Jason Duckworth. And, you know, Like another set of people. But it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only what your opportunities are, but how you think about yourself as a person.
Yes. And that's why I think your book is so powerfully situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. And you said people first in the title. I like to say that.
Yeah, I guess I could have said places and it was, yeah, it takes primacy, right? It's pole position.
People, because, and you talk about mentorship, and relationships, the relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously, when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but—
Yeah.
At some point, hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment, whatever it might be, to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive re-encouragement, positive self-belief, It is going to give you such a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school, the perfect place without those people giving that to you.
Like, you like the people part. I, I, I, I couldn't agree more. And, Liz, it's, it's really like, not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive. Like, um, you'll be 7% more efficient. Like, if, like, it is. I think to me, the transformative element is that You don't know who you could become.
That's the thing. And your mom, who could she have become? Not that she's not great right now and she raised great kids and she had a great marriage, but—
Who could my mother have become?
Who could she become?
Who could my— what's the artist?
And it doesn't mean that she could have been famous. Maybe she could have been famous, but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more creating the art she had inside of her.
Yeah. She will tell you herself, That she asked that question, right? And again, you know, is she sorry that she raised her family?
No.
Like, did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like, no. But yeah, no. And you'll be happy to know at age 91, I mean, she paints every day. Like—
And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like?
She texted me once and she said in this text message, like, when I paint, I have no age. Like, I forget that I am old.
Wow.
Right? And she says like, every day I'm good to work to like make these dreams come true. Yeah, like God bless, she's a very healthy 91-year-old. But I think it's just, I mean, it really is. It's like, okay, now she's in a situation where like there are people. I asked her about her art. Like growing up, I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked mom like, do you wanna go to the art museum? Like, what are you working on? Like, do you like this painting? Like now I ask her about her art. I ask her to send pictures of her art. I go to her art studio. Like I'm only a tiny part of that situation. But yeah, and I think the point that I'm inadequately expressing is, again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains. It's a transformation in who you are. You are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation.
So true. I've got a couple final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions about that.
I can't believe I talked about my marriage the whole time.
I think it's fascinating.
It's okay. It's an important part of my life.
I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. And we talked about off camera about, you know, early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that belief, that energy, that confidence.
And that self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
And it's like, and it makes you more gritty and all these things that support each other.
By the way, the Million Effect and the placebo effect are highly related. They're both about belief and they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality, right?
There's a book out by Nir Eyal. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief.
Yeah.
Really interesting.
I think he's Nir Eyal. He's a psychologist, right? Yes. Right? Like Israeli?
Nir Eyal. Yes. Am I guessing right? Okay. Yeah. It's called Beyond Belief.
I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book.
Book is powerful. I think the previous book was called Hooked, I think it was.
Yes, that is the one. Yeah, about distractions.
The new one is about belief. You should check it out. It's called Beyond Belief. And I believe he was also atheist, I believe, before, from what he was talking about. And he said, in all my research of studying belief and the benefits of belief, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily— I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I— and I never prayed before. But prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more.
So I'm going to believe it.
So I believe it, even if I don't know really 100% there's a God.
I choose to believe.
I'm choosing to believe based on the psychological, emotional, and health benefits in my life to prayer. And so I pray every day because I believe it's going to make me better. And then when you're talking about your husband Jason, how he prays every day, Yeah. To be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices?
You know what? There are lots of books about believing, and I am not saying that like you shouldn't read that one, but I will say mindset, you know, like, you know, like you, you're like, there, there are lots of things about what you do in your mind. You pray, you meditate, you set goals. Um, I think I believe in all of it, by the way. Like, I, I, I think there should be 1,000 books, a million books, right? Because that is a lot of of changing like your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this, many people, let's take prayer as an example. Like why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right? Like why are there sacred spaces, right? Like, well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants.
And art museums and—
And art museums and art studios, right? Like, and I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation. But just on the side of the physical spaces matter too.
Spaces are important also, yes, of course.
I think prayer is easier in certain places. You could pray at Starbucks.
Sure.
And maybe some people are really good at praying at Starbucks, but when I go to church, which I do, that's a different space, right?
More present to it. You're more in the moment.
At least for me, right? So again, it's a late Interesting. Understanding of mine in a way, because I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work out. It's like, no, no, no, you can just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best first and foremost. I think we agree.
We just naturally agree. And the environment.
And the physical environment.
Well, you put people first, so that's what I'm—
Yeah, I know. And I'm with you. I'm speaking from the same hymnal. But I think the physical matter, I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, oh, I love it, right? Like, and I think it was—
We try to create that experience.
Great vibe, right? Like, details matter. So like, do all the details matter the same? No. But I think like once you just open your eyes, like just look around, right? Like look around, who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like, what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say like, what am I doing here? I will tell you the billboards are different in LA than they are in Philadelphia.
They're not as They're probably not as— they don't make you feel as good, probably.
Well, have you been to Philadelphia?
Oh, I haven't been there in a long time, so maybe. Um, I know the weather's better here.
I think our billboards are 90% about like—
You can see the billboards. You can't see in the rain there. The clouds.
Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem. But, um, but in Philadelphia, our billboards are mostly like, um, you know, like how to, you know, sue people. Like, you know, like political or government. Yeah, what's that called? Like legal. Yeah, like the legal thing where like, you know, there's a lot of those here too though on the highway.
They're everywhere. Yeah.
Okay. Well, maybe that'll make me feel better. I just passed a lot of entertainment ones, so I just thought very different things. But yeah, you should just be, I think, be aware of it before you change your situation, right? Because absolutely you should. But I think just being aware, that's probably step 1. Just noticing.
Step 1.
Yeah.
That's it. Angela, this has been powerful. I got a couple final questions. This question is something I ask everyone at the end called the 3 truths. Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on Earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. But for whatever reason, in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone. Grit is gone. All of your speeches, content, video, all gone from this world.
Even this podcast. Everything's gone. Everything before this moment.
Yes. But you get to leave behind 3 truths, 3 lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world. And we get to keep that. What would those 3 truths be for you?
Oh, number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number 2, effort pays off more in certain situations than others. Number 3, you can change your situation for the better.
Another hypothetical scenario. If you could go back to the day you graduated where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, now you can be a wife.
Now you're ready to be a wife.
Now you're ready to be a wife.
Yeah.
If you could go back and just, you know, hypothetically time travel, you are who you are now, and you see that girl then on graduation day, and if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds, and you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, what would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through, and what advice would you give her?
I would say, Angie, you think of life as a watercolor, and you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it. But that's not the right metaphor because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined Unless they don't get ruined. It's an oil painting.
Mm-hmm.
In an oil painting, you can just like throw on a whole nother layer. The things, you know, it, it's a, it's a work in progress. When I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension. And when things did go south in any endeavor, I did try harder, but in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, I chose the road with Jason, it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like this marriage must be ruined, to like, it's an oil painting. And if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then we're going to be more than okay.
Yeah.
And if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on.
Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best.
People first.
People first. For me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on the School of Greatness is give people those tools. So I'm gonna acknowledge you for this. I wanna acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage. I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today.
I did not think so. But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question?
Yeah.
I know that you often ask your your interviewees, your guests, like what their definition of greatness is?
Well, that's my next question for you, but you want me to answer first?
But can you answer for me? Like, yeah.
For me, it's discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would've thought greatness is about being the best. being number one and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was like a teenager, 20s, you know, something. And I realized that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted rather about, you know, we and service. And so then I, as I started to start the School of Greatness.
Yeah.
I went through a healing journey and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me, even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted.
Right, you were winning.
But why am I unhappy? Why am I breaking down in relationship? Why? What's going on?
Yeah.
And I realized, I was just like, oh, that's not the secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. It should be about win-win. Not win-lose.
Right.
And in sports, you know, you're just conditioned like win, give your best, like get better, improve. And if you're not a winner—
Sports is win-lose.
And if you're not a winner, you're a loser.
Right.
So that framework of sports is a win-lose unless you look at sports differently and say, even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like, what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty and I responded with my integrity? You know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought like, if we don't win, that I'm a loser. I am a loser.
Right.
And I cannot deal with feeling like I am.
Like a loser.
Not I experienced a loss.
Yeah.
It was an identity. of I am instead of we experienced this loss in this game, but I'm not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, oh, this is unsustainable way of living life.
Yeah.
And I believe, like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God, someone gave her that she was curious about.
Mm-hmm.
She wanted to paint and she pursued that for a while and then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing it again and she says she feels ageless. And it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum and makes millions of dollars. But she feels the most alive she's ever felt, it sounds like, pursuing her gift and talent. And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared, our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding a way to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. So that's for me what it is. But what's your definition of greatness?
I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself. And, that is also the definition I would give for meaning. And, the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Viktor Frankl.
Yeah. Man's Search for Meaning.
Man's Search for Meaning.
So great. Stimulus and response.
And, I think Viktor Frankl is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Viktor Frankl. People are like, oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz. That's true. Stimulus and response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space, we find our freedom. He often quoted Nietzsche and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation.
Cool.
And I think that's the lesson that people take from Man's Search for Meaning and then his own triumph in adversity. Because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation. But if you read Man's Search for Meaning carefully, he says 2 things that I think are not always understood about Viktor Frankl. One is he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should, because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic.
Yeah, don't stay in a horrible situation.
I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp, you have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change like where this cup is, you can't change what's in the cup, you can't change where your phone is, you can't change whether, you know, you hang out with this person or that person. You have zero freedom. I think Viktor Frankl, when he escaped, when he was released from the concentration camps and he came especially to lecture in America, he said emphatically that you do have freedoms and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make that Viktor Frankl did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Viktor Frankl wanted us to be in better situations and make them better for others. And the second thing I'll say—
Maybe him, he would've put places first over the people.
I don't know. Viktor Frankl, I wish I, I'm not gonna put words Victor Frankl, and he probably would say, oh, it's both. He'd probably put people first. But Victor Frankl had a debate. When you talk about what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Lewis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right?
Mm-hmm.
Greatness isn't self-actualization. It is what Frankl called self-transcendence. So again, I don't know that people got into the nitty-gritty of what Viktor Frankl wrote about for the rest of his life, because he wrote over 30 books. Man's Search for Meaning was the first. He had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow's higher—
Really? Yes. Wow.
They were contemporaries, both Jewish. Abraham Maslow born in the Bronx or something, or Brooklyn. So did not survive the concentration camps, but they sparred. They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debate each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence. In other words, what is greatness?
Self-actualization, right?
Yeah. And in 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs. On the bottom is like food and then safety. Yeah, survival. Exactly, all the survival needs. And then it's like, and then there's to love and be loved, and then there's esteem. But the top, right? So the top, he never drew a pyramid, but the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts, gifts and your ambitions. But that was not what you gave. You said in service to others, right? So the debate was that Viktor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He called it self-transcendence. He said, it's not self-actualization, it's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people. So I will just say that I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence. I like it. And you can either take that lesson or the fact that Viktor Frankl doesn't want you to be a masochist and suffer in illusions. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He doesn't want you to have a toxic work environment. But I do think that there's so much wisdom there, and I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response, and in there, there lies freedom. And I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah. Like marry Martha or Jason, like find your Martha, like find your Jason. Yes. Like be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you.
Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I wanna make, make sure people get the book situated. It's out right now. And also hopefully we see you more on Instagram 'cause I saw some sparse content on there, but hopefully you're on there more frequently in the future. We're working on it. So Angela, Angela, God bless.
I changed that situation. You're gonna see me.
Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much.
I enjoyed it.
Thank you. I was like, my God, man. Like, you know, she, she was in a dark place and I was in a dark place and we were kind of on our own in the same house but living different lives. And I realized at this time in my life, she was a great mom, but I was on my own. And that's when a real big change happened for me. So I said, I'm going to join the military.
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