The ROOT CAUSE Of Human Trafficking & How To SAVE CHILDREN From It! | Tim Ballard & Lewis Howes

We've counted somewhere between 3 and 400 kids were likely sexually abused over the two years those guys were there. You know what's scary, and where Americans need to wake up, we call this the hidden war because I think you.

Gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness. Really?

Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

So for people that have no context about you or this issue in the world and in the US, what is O-U-R? the mission that you guys have and how bad is the problem in the world right now?

So Operation Underground Railroad is our foundation. We're a nonprofit and we strive to empower law enforcement and aftercare services in the extraction and healing of child sex victims and often it's adult sex victims as well. And so we are in five regions. We have offices in five different regions. the sun never sets anymore on our operations, which is very exciting for us. And we're just constantly working with law enforcement. And they ask us to do different things, you know? There's so many ways to attack it, 'cause it's enormous, right? There's millions of people. There's more people enslaved today than ever before in the history of the world, which is shocking to people, 'cause they think their textbooks tell them that it ended with Abraham Lincoln and the end of the transatlantic slave trade. And they're like, no, it's weird, it's ugly head again, and there's more people now than ever. Slave labor, sex, and organ harvesting, which is becoming a bigger thing, believe it or not. And so we seek to empower law enforcement. Sometimes it means trainings that we do or equipment. Oftentimes they ask us to go undercover, 'cause our guys and girls are all, most are former law enforcement, our operators, or military, and they can infiltrate very rapidly, especially if they look like they're Westerners. And that's a bad thing, by the way, for us who live in this country, because what it says is we are the demand and we are with the largest consuming country, the United States of what? Of child sex videos. Wow.

Would that also include sex engagements with kids or more consuming, you know, child pornography?

Correct. It's the consumption of the child exploitation material, child rape videos. And we also, we are the top, in the top three for destination countries because if the demand is here, the traffickers would love to get the kids here.

Right.

So we see that happening. A lot of that's happening right now with the filled border enforcement. People can just come right in. Kids are coming. I know they're coming in. We're seeing this happening. And so we can easily play the role of what the preferred client looks like. So traffickers all over the world see us, and we put ourselves in the right place, we know where to go, and they welcome us in and boom, we can infiltrate rapidly, get the evidence back to law enforcement, and they can they can pursue.

And how many, I guess, what do you call them extractions where you've gone in and rescued or even arrested people that are pedophiles or dealing with the local kind of sex slavery in these different regions? How many people have you arrested or captured and how many kids have you supported in this process in the last eight years?

So we are just under 5,000 arrests that we've supported.

All around the world.

All around the world. We've done thousands a couple thousand operations supported directly or indirectly. And then the number of actual people that we've been able to extract and help get into recovery is over 6,000.

It's incredible, man.

6,000-- Women and children, yeah.

That's unbelievable. How does it make you feel when you think of those 6,000 faces that have better lives now?

It's interesting. I love to see those people or know their names. Because I don't ever like to get into statistics, you know?

Right.

Because if you go statistics, 6,000 versus literally millions, you know, people say, that's a drop in the bucket. And I just get, 'cause I'm like, you know what? I've done operations before. Like there was a target in Mexico that we worked on for over a year, this trafficking organization. We could not get in. We'd get this close and then get torn away. We get close again, and like the money's building up and I'm getting pressure from the financial division of our, like, Tim, you gotta stop. I can't stop. I know we're this close. And we finally broke through. about six months ago, and it was one of the operations I participated on personally, and it was one kid. But this was one little boy who had been years, we think he was about nine or ten when it started. He still looked nine or ten to me. It had been a couple of years into this. And I remember we found him, and I saw him on the beach for the first time, and they're trying to sell him to me, had all the videos undercover. And I remember we call it operation football, football, soccer ball really, if you know how to translate it. And because as we walked away, as we walked away, the little boy said, Senor, mister, he's like, it's the first time he spoke, and he said, he knew we were coming back, right, to do horrible things to him. He says, could you bring me a soccer ball? Oh my gosh. And I was just like biting my, I was like, oh my gosh. That night, It was a crazy case 'cause that night they were supposed to bring the kid to our house. We'd like to control the settings. We had a sting house. And then they called us and said, Hey, another cartel, you're just outside our cartel zone. We can't risk this kid. They said, this kid's a golden goose. We make so much money. We cannot take him out of. They will kill us like the cartel bosses. And so they said, you, got to come to this hotel. And it was our intel people look it up. It's owned by cartel. And it's like fatal funnels everywhere. It's one of these hotels. It's just a garage. Oh, yeah. It's only a garage. The garage door open 'cause it's for sex, you know? And so you go and they close the door. Oh my gosh. And you go upstairs, there's just one single room, nothing's connected. Oh my gosh. And I remember our guys were like, Tim, you can't go. I'm like, Screw, are you kidding me? And I do a little trick. This is why it's about the individual for me. Because it was super dangerous. We didn't have time to be forward deployed. They had the kit out, the Golden Goose was out for just one day, and they were gonna take him back. If you don't come now, you're not gonna get him. Oh my gosh. And I had to go 'cause I was the face they knew, right?

Right.

And I remember we were in the sting house that never was, right? And I take two steps to the side. I remember just, I just, this kid, I find the kid of mine who's closest in age. I do this every time.

Of your child.

I don't have nine, as you know. So it's easy for me to find whatever kid we're looking for, I'll find one of mine. And, you know, I used to avoid doing this 'cause it hurt too much, and then there came a day in my career where I was like, no, let it happen. Let that kid be your kid. Otherwise, I might not go. I might not go. And I remember walking away, and this is what happens usually. And I see, in this case, it was my son Luke, who's closest in age to him, I think 11 or 12, or I can't remember the exact age. And then I asked myself a simple question, if that was Luke, what would you do? It's a no-brainer. If it was Luke, I'd go there. And now, who am I to say, well, it's not my kid, then forget it about it. Well, as it turns out, as I could have imagined, there was no parents. We still haven't found the parents. He doesn't know. He was taken from another part of Mexico. He doesn't know where he's from, right? All he knows is he's getting raped every day. And the only adults in his life are responsible. So then it's easy. It's like, that's my son. That's it. And we went in and we brought three soccer balls and some Legos and took care of him. We went undercover and got the information we needed. The cops stormed the place, got the kid out, and I'll tell you what, I get reports all the time. He's doing awesome. We have him at one of our partner foundations that does aftercare. He has a soccer field there. And he's just as happy as kid. He's free. He's free, you know? And then I went back to my team after that operation and I said, I wanna show you the bill. This has been over a year. This is how much it cost?

For one kid.

For one kid. I said, did you guys think we would save more than this? Of course, we thought there'd be 20 plus. And I said, was it worth it or would you go back and say we wouldn't do this again? Are you kidding? It's worth it. And then I asked them again, another question.

And I try to always do this when I'm there. So wait, so break it down, what happened?

So you went to the hotel.

Yeah. and it's super shady and sketchy.

Oh yeah.

And you're like, okay, I'm gonna go in this, you know, trap door essentially. Yeah. And what, you go up into the.

Room with soccer balls. So yeah, so I'll explain.

So this, we had a house.

And you're dressed like a, oh yeah, I got a wig and a fake.

Scar and fake eyes, you know. And you're acting like a pedophile. Absolutely.

That you're looking to pay for sex with a child. With this kid.

Yeah.

So, We have a house with seven cameras for the evidence, right? And there's only so much you can do, there's only so much you can do after that. So when they call and say, Just kidding.

Come here.

Come here. It's like we have nothing. So you know my, you were just talking about one of our partner organization, operators, Jeremy Locke, right? So he was with me and that guy's got balls of steel, like he'll do anything. So he's like, I'll forward deploy best I can. So he goes in first. with a girl pretending he's going to like, it's a sex place, right? And he calls like, bro, there's very little I can do for you. I got a room, but it's like these rooms don't even connect. Like the only way in is to go through a garage. They're all individual garages. So you can get in and out without being seen, right? You can bring prostitutes or that's what it's designed for. And then the rooms, you go upstairs and there's like a little like turntable and you can buy like sex toys and you buy it, they bring it to you, you turn the little thing and you pull out the It's nuts, right? Crazy. So I go in with my small team and there's just nothing we can do. It's just like, I don't care. I remember the team leader, he's like, Tim, you can't go. You can't go. You're the founder of this organization. I'm like, I'm the only one that has the face. They know, they're not, who's gonna go? I'm not gonna let this kid go. He's my son. It's Luke. I'm calling him Luke.

Right?

I'm like, I'll do anything for Luke, you know? And, ugh. And, And so we go in and... So you're going in alone then at this point?

I'm not alone.

I have two other people with me.

Gotcha. And... And they know it's fine that there's a couple people.

Yeah, because we're all gonna have sex with this kid. Oh my gosh, it's crazy. It's... Yeah, and we're gonna film it and it's gonna be just like... Oh my gosh. There's one person in the film and then two people are gonna... Oh my gosh. They knew that.

Oh yeah, they helped design it.

Yeah, they're like, you can do this. Oh my gosh. And in the... And how much would that cost?

For someone?

Oh, for a kid that young, to have him for the night was around $3,000.

Oh my gosh.

So it's like three or four times what you would pay for like an adult, a sex worker, say.

And how often is that child being used?

Oh, every day.

Oh my gosh.

Every day. Maybe more than once a day. Because he was booked for the next day. So that's why he was like, if you don't come now, guys, you can't, he's gone. That's why we had to make a choice, right? So now we gotta film this. This is where it gets crazy, right? So we have some contingencies. I had a hat with a camera watch and Murphy's line. As we're driving over, both aren't functioning. Break. Yeah, it's like, I got a cell phone. So we go in, we can't take more than three or it's going to be too. Yeah, suspicious. So us three go in and we get to the traffickers meet us and I go, okay, the kids in that room.

And so we go up to see.

Him and we got soccer balls and we give it to him. And so we're like, okay, come on in. He's like, well, no, We're doing the deal in the other room. I'm like, crap. Okay, I'm not leaving that kid alone. I'm definitely not with one person. Because once I see the kid, I'm never leaving him alone again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I instruct the two to stay with the kid, because I don't want that kid to be alone, and I can't-- Because you haven't paid yet. I haven't paid yet.

Gotcha.

And they want to do the exchange in a different room. Oh my gosh. So I give, the instruction to the two state, I don't want that kid alone and I'm not gonna have just, you never leave a victim with just one person. You have to, so there's a witness of anything that might happen, right? So I'm alone now. My team was pissed I was going and now I'm alone going into the other room through the garage and all I have is my cell phone. I'll show you, it's hilarious, I'll show you the footage. It's crazy. So I'm just like holding my phone, you know, putting it, just like wherever I can hold it. And, you know, I got good footage and we did the exchange.

You were speaking in Spanish.

I speak Spanish, yeah. So I can, I'm dealing with these guys and, you know, they're freaking out. I remember at one point one of the guys walk, he's gonna open the window and looking to see if there's cops. And I know they're out there. There's 30 of them out there, the Mexican team. And I'm freaking out, they'll see them. So I'm freaking out. So I say, you know, this guy too, what are you looking at? Your sniper? Is that your sniper over there? You're saying, I'm out of here. If you don't close this window, you know, so, okay, okay, okay, okay, we'll close the window. You know, because I'm going to block him from seeing. Yeah, so I wasn't there for maybe, you know, he sold me cocaine, which is like, well, you're already screwed. I just went out for a couple more years on your sentence. So I bought the cocaine, you know, the cops authorized that, and he told me to do that. And the cop, there's one detective that was really close on the scene. And I eventually said, hey, I got a buddy coming up and you might hear his footsteps coming up, you know? And so I got him distracted, got him to say everything, every detail the kid is gonna do, how much money. Oh my gosh. We exchange, and you gotta have it on video. You have it on video. Yeah, you gotta have it on conversation.

Recorded so they don't come back later.

And he didn't ask to like put your phone down or anything, or you're.

Just kind of hiding it?

No, I did a really good job hiding it. Wow. And then you get the whole exchange. Whole exchange. I remember when he gave me the cocaine, I was like, okay, and I kind of put the phone up. the cocaine is like this big in the camera. It's like, it's like a little bag, but you know. And then, and then-- so you buy.

The cocaine first and then you pay the 3,000 or whatever for the act that night.

Yeah, and then I get them, say, Hey, I want to make sure that when we go in there, we can do everything. Oh my gosh. So otherwise, you wall them off, right? Because later they'll say, We thought it was just a party. They're gonna play soccer. You know, you got to make sure it's on camera. Like, what am I gonna do? And the grosser, the better for the case. It was just horrifying because you're listening. to this and saying, well, what if... And we know the right questions to ask that kind of induce them to speak their mind and their heart, what the kid will or will not do. Oh my gosh. And so we got him every... He say everything. You can do everything to him.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, they're very clear about that.

How do you stay in, I guess.

Character where you're thinking 30 minutes before this, I'm gonna go, I'll do whatever I can for my son, Luke. This is my son that I'm going to rescue essentially, emotionally, in your heart. But then when you enter this place, how do you not transfer back over emotionally to where you want to rip this guy's head off? And you have to be like a pedophile acting like, Yes, I can't wait to do this and this and this.

So it's the weirdest thing. I've been doing this for 18 years and I've gotten better at it. So I've learned over the years how to answer that question. In the beginning, it's really hard. Like in the beginning, I had actually go to therapists and I would actually train my mind.

Oh my gosh.

To like not see my kids.

To block it.

Yeah, to block this or block that. And then I eventually got to the point where I started letting my kid, I was ready to let my kid's face be superimposed and I actually let it happen. I wanted it to happen because I realized I'm better, I'm more effective if it's my kid, right? And it's personal, you know? So that's why I started doing that. But the weird thing about undercover work, and everyone's different how they apply different you know, mental games. But the only way I've learned so I don't just go, just, you know, in the middle of the thing.

Because you know you have the end result, you need to finish it.

Right. If you will fill that kid. You'll fill that kid. And the other thing I do is I try to find the good in that person, because there is actually good in everybody. It's hard to say this, but you find that they'll have a family. A lot of them have kids. And so you kind of focus on.

Like, how can they do that when they have kids?

You cannot understand it. Like, I was on a case once where the guy was selling me all these kids and then he pulls out a picture of this other little girl and he's like, I'm like, Isn't she beautiful? I'm like, yeah. That's my daughter. I'm like, you,'re gonna sell me your daughter? No, he was just showing me, Isn't she beautiful? I'm like, Dude, how did you just do that? Like, you were just selling me kids.

Her age and now you're like proud daddy.

But you wouldn't sell her, but you'd sell these other kids. You'll sell it's someone else's kid, you'll sell. But yours is just daddy. And so I focus on whatever humanity is left in them. I focus on that so that I can find a connection. Otherwise, and I try to like that side of them.

So you try to buddy-buddy with them.

Yeah, because you gotta make it real. Especially a long-term case, you've gotta make a chemical connection, 'cause spirits connect, right?

How's your family? How's your wife? How's your kids? How's business?

I want them to feel a genuine, Friendship and it's really hard because you start slipping back to like I want.

To I want to you know destroy this person.

Yeah and and but you just go long enough and play that game and then it's just this big relief when you see oh my gosh can't cup you're just like and I usually start crying like I try to get away before that happen it may happen it might happen an hour later it might happen a week later, but I oh it always happens.

Yeah, there's a release.

Yeah, you have to because you're holding a lot of stuff. Oh my gosh, man And especially if it's a case, again, dealing with children, that's, if it's a drug case, that's probably very, very different. But these guys are hurting children, you see the kid, the kid thinks I'm gonna hurt him, like, that feels horrible. And they usually don't ever get to know that you were actually, you were the one that helped them, you know? Oh, right, right, right. Because you can't risk, sometimes very rarely it happens where the undercover, for some reason, gets to like, hey, later, yeah. I was actually, I was the, Helping you.

But if they're so young, they may not understand the full in their brains and they've been so.

Yeah, we rescued a kid in 2014, an Operation Triple Take in October 2014. And he stayed with our organization. He went through Aftercare and then he became an ambassador and he started getting to know our Aftercare team really well. And then he learned the story. He's an adult now. He's like 19 years old. It had been like eight years. And he said, I want to meet You. Me.

Oh my gosh.

But he remembers me. He knows who I am, but he also remembers that was the main guy.

The bad guy.

The bad guy. And he said, I want to meet him. So I went down to Cartagena.

When was this?

This was maybe a couple years ago. I went down to Cartagena to meet him. And, you know, he was excited. Dude, right when he walks into the house, I'm like, what's up, bro? And I said his name, and he just goes, ah! Like, reacted. I'm like, oh, like, he couldn't, it was like, I just walked away. Like, okay. He just could, he's like, I'm sorry, no, I know you're a good guy, you know? And then he's a hairdresser. We helped him go through school and stuff. And so then we just, he cut.

My hair and then we be, now we're buds, you know?

Right.

But that trauma, you gotta learn how to let go of that trauma. And I only went, by the way, because He wanted, and the aftercare, his aftercare folks said he wants to, it's time.

And it was time. It's a healing time too, probably. It was very healing for him. Let me revisit it, which is always hard to do. It's scary, it's traumatic to revisit the trauma. There's going to be a period of like, this is emotionally overwhelming, but the only way to allow yourself to heal is to really start facing it in some way. And that's what worked for him, it sounds like. So what happened at the end of this in Mexico with this one boy? So you got the footage, you buy the cocaine, then you pay for the exchange, and then what, you go back into the other room?

No. So once the exchange happens, that's for the prosecution in Mexico in this jurisdiction, that's all they needed.

So you didn't go back and see the kid?

No.

No. You just do what?

You call someone? So yeah, I just text the cop, say done, deal done, and then I told them, I said, hey, I have a friend coming who's gonna be part of the party, he's gonna film some. Okay, no problem. so I keep him distracted enough. So I, and so I go, oh, I go open the garage real quick. He's coming. No problem. And then I keep him super distracted, and then I hear the footsteps coming up, and I'm like, oh, there, there, there, there they are.

It's the cops, right? And then all of a sudden, boom, police. So you're in the room with the guy still just kind of buddying, buddying with him, hanging out. You know, in, in 60 seconds, there's people coming up. How does that feel for you when you know there's going to be police coming in? Is it Fearful? Is it exciting? Are you just waiting? Is it seem like it's hours when.

You send a text?

It always seems like it's hours.

60 seconds later, they're there.

It always seems like hours.

But you gotta eat. And what if they have gun? What if the bad guy has a gun?

I don't know, always. You do your best, but in this.

Case, I had no-- Because you didn't have a weapon, did you? No. Because they'll probably check you usually. Even when I was in law enforcement, my personal preference, I've seen others choose differently, but I think it's more dangerous. to have a gun. I've seen cases where because they see you have a gun, it's more dangerous.

Right.

And I just rather-- They're on guard now.

They're like getting their weapons out. Yeah, I'd rather just act. I'm confident in my ability to act the part and just disarm them that way.

And I've never had issues. I've never had-- and you have communication skills to keep them connected. You have emotional skills. You can disarm them psychologically, emotionally, communicating.

With them, humor, all these things. Make them laugh. If you keep keeping someone laughing, it's relaxing. And that's easy for me. I just act like a drunk. version of myself always. And just, I can make jokes and I'm like, I'll do crazy things. I'll start tickling guys. Like, really? Yeah, like I'm drunk, like, what's up, man? And they just can't help it because it's funny. I'm also patting them down. Okay?

And just, and, but they, you keep.

Them funny, like, if they're laughing and, okay, I'm gonna get paid. This is all fine. Or are you talking about like, hey.

What are you gonna do with the money, bro? Like, because I'm gonna bring other friends, you get them thinking about that, that, get that dopamine going for them.

Like, I'm gonna buy this and this, right? Just keep me distracted.

And you also have a lot of combat skills, like hand to hand.

Yeah.

You could disarm if you needed to in a close.

I have things I can do on that front as well.

So you're not confident in that.

I'm confident enough, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if they don't have a weapon, you could defend yourself enough.

Yeah.

So they came in, they come after the guy, they put him in handcuffs.

Yeah, so they come in and because, again, we had no choice, right? Because we went from a house with seven cameras both my undercover cameras fail. Were you just filming with yourself? No, this is funny because I wanted to film as much as I could of the arrest. At this point, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, a normal person who's getting arrested knows they have to go face down. So I go, I go back down, and I'm sure the traveler's like, this guy doesn't know how to get arrested. So I go back like this. I put my phone on my chest.

I'm like, what? I laid down and I got the shot. No way. So did the guy So the guy knew that you were in on it then at that point?

No, no, because they really weren't looking. I didn't make it obvious. I just was like, whoa, I sat.

Down in the corner.

You thought they were coming to get you too. Yeah, because that's my safety.

So I go out with them in handcuffs. 'Cause otherwise they might say, look out.

For this guy or whatever. Right.

So you go out in handcuffs.

Yes. You get arrested too, part of the thing. And that's part of the strategy to go next level too, right? Because they don't want, who died this out? What's going on? They can make it less suspicious, make them next, because you're trying to get next level. How do they find us? The lead might have really come from the law enforcement up here. They don't want them to make that connection. We might have informants into that organization. So if they say, We've been following this gringo for six months. He's been through Bali and Thailand, and then he came here. Oh, so this guy, you've been chasing him. That's how you found us. So then you keep safe other informants. that are hitting the organization. That makes sense. So they can use that tactic.

Very sophisticated.

And it keeps me safe because I can get out of the country and them thinking, where do you go? We send him to Mexico City because he's American and he's gonna get a special punishment, whatever. And then we disappear.

So do you actually go to the police officer, once you're in the car and drive away, they kind of let you go?

Yeah, they'll drive us, usually it's like the station, close the door, even bring us in sometimes and then release us. And we wait a little bit and put different clothes on, take the wigs off, whatever, and then just go out.

That's it. Back door, go to the airport.

We get out right away. Really? Yeah. You don't want to hang out because people talk.

So you go to the airport and you leave.

Immediately.

Yeah.

Anyone who's on the, what we call the primary team, undercover team, you gotta get out of the country. Because people talk quick. And you don't, even people in the police station, you know, we always deal with that. The corruption.

So where is it? Where was this boy now? And when was this? Six months ago, you said?

This was within the last year, yeah.

So what happens to someone once you rescue them and you get them out of this situation? What's the next year look like of their life? Whether it's one boy or 100 people at one time?

Yeah, so the aftercare portion is the most important part because if you don't have that piece, you didn't even do anything. I've seen people go in and, They'll do like a rescue, whatever, and then they just leave. And frankly, that's how in the government we started. If I did international ops, I was told just leave. And we, 'cause we just, the host government's in charge of that. We never do that anymore. Because what happens oftentimes is, yeah, it's even worse. It's a net negative.

We traumatize.

Because now they get kicked out, they process them, sign some paperwork, okay, see ya. and the kid goes out in the parking lot and the trafficker is there to beat the snot out of him. How did you get caught? Now the police are the bad guys. Look what happens to you. No, they avoid at all costs. So you could actually do net negative. You could do damage by going out.

And being stupid like some people do. I know some people.

So what's the next year look like then for them? So then we don't begin an operation. Like if I'm sitting down in the very beginning with the law enforcement, because we won't work unless we get permission and we're signed up as informants or different, make it very legitimate. We have our aftercare team in that first meeting and we tell them, if you don't agree that any of the kids we help you rescue, they have to go to where this director, our director, tells you they're going.

A certified place that we trust.

That we vetted. And it just happened in that region, we had a really good partner. And that's why the more countries we're in, you know, some people take the model of like few countries and do lots. We, our models, as many countries, and plant those seeds because we have faith in our ability to empower them. And then it's really good because you can talk to each other. So like if we rescue, this happens, we rescue a Venezuelan or a Colombian girl in Dominican Republic and then we get them home and then we have a team waiting for them already on aftercare. So we always have that place, whether it's in the country or it's a home country.

So they go to an aftercare facility, some type of home where there's Adult supervision of trusted vetted individuals that then do what? They give them a place to live.

Live, schooling, you know, recreation. It's like a-- A safe environment. It's a very safe environment. And we look for the parents, we look for family, and hopefully we can.

Find-- what if the parents are the ones that were the ones selling?

And oftentimes that's the case, unbelievably, but oftentimes the family is involved and so we just keep them in our home.

How do moms Sell their children.

I don't know, man. It's one of these mysteries I'll never, never, never understand.

Have you talked to some of them afterwards and tried to ask them like what psychologically is off? Is it a fight or flight? Is it a survival mechanism?

It's a survival.

But once you have the money, once you've sold your children a few times and you've made a couple thousand dollars in a very poor environment, don't you have at least some money for like the next month? like to stop at some point or like, why do they keep doing it? Is it greed?

It's greed. It's just greed. And then just get used to it. Oftentimes I've found that the parents who are doing it, like, well, my mom did it to me. Oh, so it's a cycle.

They don't know any better.

They don't know. That's what they know.

Yeah.

Oh, man. So what is, what's the good side of this? What can, what can people see after, you know, six months or a year? Do you start to see cases of kids that are starting to be, I don't know if you call it rehabilitated or healed, reintegrated from this horrible emotional traumatic process that could have been years of their life.

So how we kind of guide our partners in aftercare and we stay with, we don't just drop them off and see you. Like our aftercare team keeps growing and growing because we take care of them, including the ones we didn't rescue. Right? There's oftentimes it's just an aftercare mission. And the one thing that we really invest in, every kid's so unique, there's not a one size fit all for healing. Some might need this form, that form. There's so many different modalities, right? But one thing that is almost consistent everywhere is to provide opportunity. Because eventually you get them to a place where like, what do you want to be? See, sometimes when you get these kids out, They don't believe they can even have a favorite color. You ask, what's your favorite color?

What?

I didn't know that was a thing for me. It's not an option. Yeah, I'm a commodity. I'm not a person that has thoughts or feelings. Yeah, it's the craziest thing you see this like, wow. And then it's like, well, you do and you can be whatever you want to be. And that's the most fun part for me when we get to say, what do you want this one? Like that kid I was telling you about, he wanted to be a hairdresser. Great. We're gonna cover you. We're gonna get a scholarship. You're gonna, and this guy is killing it. We even flew him up last year to the United States to go to like a real high-end hairdressing school, you know? That's cool. And I follow him, I follow him on Instagram on, you know, not my account. Separate account, yeah, yeah. But I just, I'm like, dude, you're killing it, bro. Like he's doing weddings and, you know, another child. 'Cause we're just, you know, we're eight years old. So the kids we rescued in 2014. Now becoming adults. So we're getting to watch. Like, can it happen? Can you reintegrate? I just recently, one of my aftercare folks sent me a picture of this other girl that I was on the operations, a little girl when we rescued her. She's got two kids, an amazing husband, and she was briefing the first lady of the country she was in about human trafficking. And she was showing the pictures that we gave her from her own operations.

Oh my gosh.

That's me right there. Let me tell you. Yeah, it was like, oh my gosh, I was crying a lot. And she had this awesome husband, two little kids. And I was like, look at this, like they can come out, they can.

Reintegrate and it's just, it's really helped make change.

Yes.

They can help impact people around them.

A lot of them, well, let me, so one of the kids, one of the kids that grew up and a lot of them want to come work in anti-trafficking and for us, a lot of them for us. So this one kid became an adult and had recently been married and he goes out and finds victims, which we don't tell him to do that because like, bro, you gotta, he's like, no, I go, you know, he just goes out to like public squares and he can identify like, I know you don't want to be here. You don't want to be here. He approached it. This is a true story. This is crazy. This is so amazing. He went to this girl who looks, he knew she didn't want to be there very, very young and she was pregnant. Like barely he could tell because this guy knows the world so well. He knows it. He was in it.

Yeah.

And so he walks up and he says, are you okay? You know, I was once you know, being in this situation as well. And she's like, why are you talking to me? He's like, I just want to help you. And she starts crying and she's like, God must have sent you because I decided to, just before you walked out to me, I was gonna kill myself.

Oh my gosh.

And the baby would die too with me. And she's like, I don't think I can have this baby. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And he said to her, Don't do it. Like, I promise you, we'll take care of you. I recently married and We will adopt your baby.

Oh my gosh.

We'll adopt your baby and holy cow. And you know, some like nine, ten months later, we were in his country and one of our Aftercare people was at the baptism of this baby.

Oh my gosh.

And it's like, that's crazy. And actually the story is told in an upcoming documentary called Triple Take, which comes out next year. And it's just like, what a, Amazing cycle, right? Like the traffic kid becomes the rescuer and then takes a baby who was born out of being trapped and raises a this it's the coolest like this is so cool. Like it's working, you know, it's working. You know, it's unbelievable, man.

And so what's been you were telling me before about what's been happening in Ukraine.

Yeah.

And there's this crazy, you know, story that happens. Can you share some of this about what happened with the, you know, a lot of the young kids and women in Ukraine and how many you've been able to impact and rescue from that situation and what you guys are doing now with, with what's happening there.

Yeah.

So, you know, people often are just perplexed at the number, like $32 billion. You can't even, that's how much money, you know, is exchanged. Right.

In the sex trafficking.

In the sex trafficking, just sex trafficking industry, if you human trafficking. Everywhere is much higher, but just the sex trafficking. 32 billion. 32 billion. And people wonder like, well, that's a big market. How do you get people? How do you get kids? And it's harvest time when it's vulnerable time. So it's usually developing countries.

Wars, natural disasters, things like that.

The traffickers just, it's like a magnet. 'Cause they're everywhere, right? So when the Russians invade on February 24th, there's my wife. who we had 12 kids in Ukraine that we were adopting out. Ukraine's a high trafficking country, so we have a program called Children Need Families that if you're an orphan in certain countries, the chances of you being sexually exploited are like almost for sure. Really?

So yeah, so it's just like- Even.

If you're in an orphanage? Yes, the orphanages are some of the worst centers of abuse. And orphanages have often in the past.

Been like the centers of trafficking. How do you know what to trust?

If you're supporting an orphanage, how do you know to trust them? Well, finally, you know, the international community got together and they have orphanage assignment called the Hague Convention.

Okay.

Which eliminates or almost completely eliminates the possibility. So you're certified it and under the.

Hague, you find those orphanages and support the guys.

Right, but there's so many in countries that don't apply. And so we had 12 kids, we were trying to get out and Catherine, my wife, kind of found it, she founded this project and she runs it. And so she was devastated about these 12 kids. She knows who they are, she knows where they are, she knows the parents that are going to about to adopt them, and she's devastated, right? Having adopted two babies on her own, she understands the emotional connection. Even before you get them, they're yours, you know? And it breaks your heart every night that you think, are they okay? You know? And so now there's a war, and she's like, she comes to me, she's like, you, need to go to Ukraine. And we have a European office, and I'm like, I'll send those guys. Yeah, and she's like, no, you have to go, you have to go, because something's gonna happen if you go. And my wife is very deliberate, very smart, like she's not irrational. So when she's saying it, she's feeling it from a higher source. And we don't mess with that, right? So through tears and biting her lip, not wanting to say what she knows she has to, which is sending her husband to a war zone, right? It's like, all right, I guess we'll go. But I was still like, Kath, I don't know how I'm gonna get in there. And I was telling you a few hours later, I get a call from Mel Gibson, okay?

And it's like, I need you to go there and rescue these kids.

'Cause he's filming a movie in Budapest at the time and he calls me, he's like, Hey, there's other kids in Ukraine, they're getting hurt. And I'm like, oh, so the list gets bigger, you know? And so we end up going out there with Aerial Recovery, Jeremy Lockey, you know? And we start these extraction operations.

And by that time, the Ukrainians give us a list of 10,000 orphans.

10,000? 10,000 orphans, they don't know where they are. So you went to go get 30 or 40, and then they're like, We need you to get these 10,000 kids. Good amount. Yeah, and Aerial Recovery led that effort. we supported it, I was out there and we started extracting these kids. The number is now 6,000 women and children who we've been able to get out to safety.

That you've rescued, you and your efforts in the organizations you've worked with.

Yeah, and I thought that was going to be it and that was going to be enough.

6,000 is a lot of people.

Yeah, that's a pretty cool.

So what happens, how do you get them out? What is the process of identifying them, knowing that the people that need to get out and then actually getting them out. Is this helicopter in them out?

Is it, you know, what is this? Okay, so, so the, the government gives us a list and they, and they have Intel folks that ride with us. We basically have a convoy. Okay. They give us the passcodes to get to blow through the checkpoints because there's checkpoints everywhere. And, you know, it's scary. I mean, there's bombs dropping. You hear them. You. And so we, we just go in and there's usually a point of contact, some care worker, you know, who's in that City. And it's usually the cities that just got bombed or in the process of being bombed, because that's where the need is in that moment. These kids are, their parents are dying, they don't know where to go. And it's just, we get Intel lists, there's usually a coordinator, like I said.

In the target location that are gathering.

A couple gathering points. Of course, somewhere, you gotta go find them and get them out. Yeah, and we'll get the points and we'll just go in and we have.

A bus, a big bus. You just put them on the bus.

Get on the bus and just get out of town. And how do they know to trust you?

That you guys are good guys and.

That you're a good person on the ground, the caretaker that we have the point of contact knows us. And we have identification. They basically designate us all as Ukrainian like agents. Like we actually are like certified, like designated to be there to be able to take the kids out. We're working under their social services department. So they're tracking it all and then we bring the kids back and the social services department then has housing for them. Some in Ukraine, some outside of Ukraine, depending on the Ukrainians make those decisions. So we were running two, three a week. Things get bombed and we just keep moving in. You were saying that when you were.

There, you were also seeing these, I guess, pedophiles coming in, what you call harvesting, I guess, they're trying to find these kids and steal them for the sex trafficking, right? Yeah, it's so easy, right?

Because these kids might be running around.

Like they don't know where to go, their home is gone.

They're crying over the dead bodies of their parents. Oh my gosh. And they're so vulnerable. and we see these vans, we could have called them, you can't really call anyone, but we'd see it happening. It's like, oh crap, and we had to talk to these, who are you? I'm like, I'm a Dutch, I'm from Holland, I'm just getting helping.

I'm like, well, there's nothing, and then-- Are you really helping?

Are you doing something? Right. Maybe some are, maybe some aren't.

Are you registered? Well, not everyone who's registered, you know.

So they would just say, oh, come in my van, I've got food, if you want to come to a safe home, I've got a home for you. And the kids get on. And then they, you know, at that point, anyone with a Ukrainian passport could go anywhere because it's like the refugees, right?

Right.

Which they take advantage of the traffickers taking advantage. It's like, hey, where do you want to go? Let's get on the airplane. We'll go somewhere warm. I wanna go to, wanna go to, you know, the Caribbean or wanna go, and all of a sudden we're seeing.

This uptick of demand and ads on the sex boards, you know, for Ukrainians.

Ads. Yeah, you know, oh yeah, online sex boards.

Mm-.

Absolutely.

So people advertise what they're looking for.

Yeah.

And what, and what's available. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It's a huge, huge, huge market.

How do these, how do these people on these, I guess, online sex, is it like chapel rooms?

Is it just like, it's every, everything you can think.

Anywhere.

Yeah. It could be on social media. Every social media. And they'll, they'll, they can hide it.

In a way that's like, they know what to put.

There's certain symbols, signs.

So they're not actually saying what they're. No, if it's underage.

Hey, I need a Colombian 16 year old. They're not saying that.

It's like symbols and emojis or something, right?

Yeah.

But there's a whole underworld of how to do that. That's crazy.

Yeah.

So when you see that and you see them, you know, putting out these kind of symbols where, you know, oh, something's fishy here. And you're able to, are you able to track those IP addresses right away? Or how does that work?

Oh, yeah. So we, we have a, a pretty impressive online Intel group, you know, well, they do everything. Right, but the digital forensics, they'll help, they'll support the forensics. When countries raid a house, they get the computers out. But they do open source Intel work where they can do all sorts of stuff to track and find and dive in. And it's pretty impressive. That's crazy, man.

And so what is this thing you would tell me about the hidden war? What is happening with this?

Yeah, so the hidden war was, while we're in Ukraine, They give us another list of, they think over 200,000 women and children have been trafficked out of the country.

Is that sex trafficking or that could be organ trafficking?

It could be anything.

Any type of trafficking.

Sex or organs or mostly sex. So we decide that we're gonna do something about this. So we put together a team of Ukrainian speakers, I gotta get Ukrainian speakers, so we go to Budapest, do a training and find, basically recruit and see who can pass our assessments. they can speak Ukrainian. And we find a couple of awesome operators, one of which is a 35 year old actress who just killed it in all the training and the scenarios. And thank goodness, because we can put makeup artists on her and turn her into a 13 year old. Now, while this is a miracle from God, and it goes back to my wife, like she didn't even know why she was sending me here. We know why now. Because we get a phone call from Dutch police asset that sells, he doesn't even know what we're doing, right? He says, Hey bro, I got a lead for you, this pedophile who we've been hunting for two years because he's a political activist trying to change the laws in Holland to make legal sex with children, right? There's interviews where he's talking about three and four year olds should be able to consent. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And he's just like, if they can consent to ice cream or a walk in the park, they can consent to sex too. It feels good for them too. Oh my gosh. It's always to liberate the child. It's always for the child's benefit, you know? But this guy's been on the run because he was arrested in Holland for crimes against children. He's like, I just found the guy. He's in Mexico City hiding. And he told me on this undercover, undercover like, you know, chat room or whatever. He says he's looking for Ukrainian kids he can insert into the Mexican market, sex market. And I'm like, Bro, you have no idea. I'm sitting here right now with Ukrainians, one of which looks like a kid. So he introduces me to this guy. He says, Hey, I got your guy. He's an American. He's in the market. He's got kids. he's in Ukraine right now, and this guy's calling me. He's like, come to Mexico and show me what you're talking about. You're talking to a pedophile. Yeah, he calls me on my undercover phone.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, so he invites me to Mexico City to come, he wants to see my product, and he's gonna show me his stuff, right?

So would you say, okay, I'll see you next week, what happens after that? So you bring kids or what happens? You bring her?

Her, I bring her, but I first call. There's a couple of countries that if you're a.