The Science of Spirituality: How Your Mind Is Creating Your Reality | Dr. Lisa Miller

We have done 10 years of MRI studies through which we've found very specific circuits in the brain, true to every single human being on Earth, and they show us that we are built to receive and perceive a relationship to our higher power. Specifically, there are 3 circuits in the brain. We all have these 3 circuits. The first—

she is a psychologist, a New York Times bestselling author, and one of the world's leading researchers at the intersection of neuroscience and spirituality. Please welcome Dr. Lisa Millett.

You can choose this very moment to activate your awakened brain. It is right there, a quarter inch under the surface, built and ready to go. Everyone has this equipment. So then it's a choice, and you and you alone can cultivate your own awakened awareness.

If someone doesn't have a relationship to God, what happens to their brain? Or what do you see in MRI studies or research in that person's brain?

This is such an important point.

If someone wants to create or manifest a new reality for themselves, what is it that your research has revealed about the connection between our brains and spirituality that would surprise a lot of people?

There's two things that we all need to know. The first is that every one of us is born a naturally spiritual person with a brain hardwired for spiritual awareness, built into our brain from day one, are circuits through which we can perceive the transcendent presence. My word is God. Everyone has their own sacred word. Yes, Jesus, Hashem, the universe, Krishna, whatever one's sacred word may be. We are built, literally, Lewis, wired in our brain to be able to have a transcendent relationship with our higher power. That relationship is real. It is built into the fabric of who we are so that we can perceive the reality of the world as it's truly built.

Is that built into our brains? Is it into our heart, our nervous system? Is it into our soul? Like, what is the research sharing or revealing about this?

We have done 10 years of MRI studies through which we've found very specific circuits in the brain, true to every single human being on Earth. And they show us that we are built to receive and perceive a relationship to our higher power.

Really? Does that higher power mean whatever that word is for you, God or universe or whatever that is?

It's whatever your word may be as it applies to the deep, loving, guiding presence in life.

Is it our higher selves or our creator?

It is our creator.

Okay.

It is our creator.

Interesting.

So, and it's not just something bigger than ourself, 'cause something bigger than ourself could be something unfortunate, like a cult or an extremist group. That's bigger than ourself. This is something loving, guiding, and ever-present.

And MRIs reveal this? Like, how does it show this?

MRIs show that we are built to perceive a loving, holding, guiding creator. Wow. Specifically, there are 3 circuits in the brain. We all have these 3 circuits. The first is the bonding network, which lets us know that we are loved and held, just as we were loved and held as children in our parents' arms. Mm-hmm. The second is a shift in our attention network from the narrow task-driven, gotta have it, gotta get it, dorsal attention, to the big view of the ventral attention network. The lights come back on and a new direction pops. We receive guidance. We are loved, held, we are guided. And the third core component of the spiritual brain is the parietal that puts in and out hard boundaries so that we know that Lewis is in this chair and Lisa's in the other, and we have friends at all different GPS coordinates. We are a point and we are a wave. We are unique and we're part of one family of life, the greater oneness. Loved, held, guided. And never alone. The three circuits in our brains that allow us to see that we are loved, held, guided, and never alone map onto the reality of a creator who is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-present.

If someone doesn't have a relationship to God or their creator that is all-loving, all-knowing, all-present, and they don't believe in that Yeah. What happens to their brain, or what do you see in MRI studies or research in that person's brain?

So, Lewis, it's such an important point. We are all built not just to believe but to perceive a loving, guiding, present Creator. So if we don't, right, which is fine, right, that opportunity still exists within us. Nobody's left out. No one is born without these circuits. And the same way that we all are born with ears and eyes and feet, this is how we're built. Mm-hmm. So if I don't feel the presence, it's simply a matter of building the muscle. Mm-hmm. In the same way that we might have physical fitness for the physical core, we can have spiritual fitness for the spiritual core, practicing awakening. This can be prayer, meditation, It can be reflective reading or teachings, introspection, a deep connection to the divinity through nature. Whatever our pathway, it leads us to the same place.

I feel like there's a lot of disconnected people in the world right now that are distracted by things that are not connecting them to source, to God, to their creator, and their ability to perceive that experience with God is diminished, and maybe it doesn't even feel like it's there at all. What actually changes inside of the brain for someone when they activate their awakened brain versus living disconnected?

You can choose this very moment to activate your awakened brain. It is right there, a quarter inch under the surface, built and ready to go. Everyone has this equipment. So then it's a choice. It's a choice because while the awakened brain is inborn, It is 1/3 innate, 2/3 cultivated. And you and you alone can cultivate your own awakened awareness in the same way that you and you alone can build your muscles and build your stamina and cultivate your temperament. You and you alone can build your, your birthright.

If someone has been very disconnected from that ability to perceive or feel God's presence or the Creator's presence, what are a few things they can do right now to start activating that connection?

Good. If there is from your past an old rusty prayer that spoke to you at one point, I invite you to dust that off. And it might be awkward the first time, even the second, but very quickly, if as a child you prayed You paved the road, effectively myelinated the pathway in your brain to get back to your childhood gift, which we all have, of a relationship to the Creator. Now, if no one ever sat by your side, and that has happened, some people have never been taught to meditate or pray, some people have never heard a word from a parent or grandparent, you still have the wiring in your brain to awaken. So Shall we do a practice?

Sure.

Okay, this is a practice which is in The Language of Life, and it maps on quite specifically to the awakened brain. It is my favorite practice because it engages loved, held, guided, and never alone. Okay, okay, okay, good. This is a practice I like to thank my teacher, from the late Dr. Gary Weaver. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. I invite you to take 5 breaths, clear out your inner space. I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. And to your table, you may invite anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind. Anyone living or deceased who truly has your best interest in mind. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you may have or not have, anything you may have done or not done, your true eternal higher self, and ask you if you love you. And now finally, you may invite your higher power, whatever your word, however you know your higher power, and ask if they love you. And now, with all of these people sitting here right now, what do they need to share? What do you need to know? What do they need to tell you now? When you're ready, I invite you back.

I remember this exercise. Yeah, it's powerful. It's like entering another world. It's very powerful.

Were you moved by who came?

Yeah, my parents. And one, my father passed away, so he was there. My grandparents and my grandparents that I never met. Who are, you know, only wanted to see their kids and their grandkids and do well in life. God and my higher power, my highest version of me, I guess. And there was two things that I was just feeling that they were saying and that I was saying to myself, which is— there's two words. One was forgiveness of everything from the past, which I feel like I've already done that. So I think it's just a consistent way of being to like live in forgiveness. Of everything I've done or other people have done and be at peace of the past, right? Not be naive, but forgive and continue to forgive. I think life is a journey of probably forgiving. And the second word was love. It's continue to do everything from a loving space. And so those were the two words, but it just felt very powerful because I felt like this pulsating. And it's almost like it's your council of higher awareness kind of pulsating together and connecting to your brain, I guess, into your heart when you breathe and you think in that way and you see these people in your table. So, it's having this higher council guide you is a very powerful exercise. And I can only imagine if people did that on a consistent basis, how it would bring them back into presence to be able to perceive and feel what they need to feel and act and be in a certain way of being.

And have an ongoing dialogue with your counsel, right? Yeah. With your ancestors, with your higher power. Everybody's always there.

Yes.

They're right there.

Mm-hmm. It's a very peaceful feeling, you know.

Did you feel great love?

Of course. Yeah, I still feel it. Yeah, it's very peaceful. It's a relaxing, and it's like a journey, you know, you're going on this journey even if it's for a few moments. So that's a beautiful exercise. Have you studied under MRI when people do that exercise or other types of exercises like that where they're connecting to a spiritual presence of conversation back and forth from beings that are not physically present?

Yes.

And what is this? What does the MRI or the studies show?

The MRI shows that no matter what tradition we may be from— Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or spiritual and not religious— the same neural correlates run as we are in conversation with our ancestors or our higher power. We're in a true authentic transcendent relationship. We are literally both speaking to God and hearing a response.

Interesting. And what happens in the brain when we're in a transcendent experience?

That is the engagement of our awakened brain. That is when we see that deep love is the love we detect through the bonding network. The direction, which could also be an affirmation in this case, your ancestors are proud of you, Lewis. That is through the attention network that that's perceived. And then the notion that you walked away knowing they're always there is the proud of letting us feel their constant presence.

Yeah, and if you do the exercise, you can always go back to seeing them or being with them. Yes. Yeah, which is power, which is kind of comforting. If you ever feel alone in your life, that exercise— I didn't feel alone, you know, even though we're here, but I felt like I was in a different world within my mind. And it brought a level of peace, you know, and it brought a level of comfort. It brought bonding, I guess. These networks, it's like I was cultivating these networks that you talked about.

We are never alone. We are never alone.

Exactly. Exactly. Why do so many people feel like they're alone?

We have the greatest mental health crisis that we've ever had in the past 100 years. We have higher rates of depression, higher rates of addiction, higher rates of suicide, higher rates of anxiety. But in fact, there's really only one ailment, which is an ailment of perception.

Really?

We perceive that we are alone. We perceive great separateness, great isolation. That is an atrophy of the awakened brain. The number one illness of our time is an illness of perception. Wow. And it is our ability right here, right now to flip the switch and engage our awakened brain.

It's so true, because when I think about the times when I was in my younger years, teen years, maybe even in my 20s, when I had more of a I kind of lived two different lives because in some moments I was very joyful and loving and positive. In other moments I was like, everyone hates me and I'm alone and I'm a loser. I kind of had like these two different worlds I'd go back and forth on. It was based on how I would perceive experiences, moments, people saying things, people not saying things, results I would get or wouldn't get. It was based on my perception of what was actually happening around me. And when that perception started to shift over time and I learned to cultivate it by not taking things personally, by not looking at everything as I'm bad and wrong, or by looking at, you know, okay, I didn't— I failed at this thing. It doesn't make me a failure. And reimagining what that actually is for me, it's actually a good thing. It's I'm learning, I'm developing. It's when I learned to perceive differently, I learned to just feel better in general, right? As opposed to go back into this disconnected mindset.

Disconnected, splintered, lonely. Yeah. And actually, you know, as you say with such wisdom, that is an illusion of perception.

Hmm, interesting.

I can sit in a room with 400 people and 390 of them feel totally alone. But Lewis, there's 400 people in the room. It's a choice to perceive the presence of others. As being in sisterhood and brotherhood with us. It's a choice to perceive communion.

Man's Search for Meaning, I think, is such a great example of that, where it's, it's how you create the meaning from a situation that determines whether you're going to have a, a good experience or a bad experience, or continue to live after that experience in pain and suffering, or more peace around it.

Well, you know, it's very interesting. Science shows us that pain and suffering actually is a knock at the door to awakening.

Really?

That the brain is literally primed in times of pain and suffering to potentiate it. The brain is potentiated to widen the lens, let in more light, and start to feel closer to God, closer to the Creator. So suffering is in our brain. Suffering can be an accelerant, a precondition for an awakening.

Most people don't want to suffer, so they think, oh, is that the only way to stay connected to God or my creator is to like pain and suffering all day? It's like no one wants that.

Well, it's not the only way. Okay. Yeah, certainly it's not the only way, but it's very helpful to know that if we're stuck, if we feel kind of blah, you know, just that low-grade blah, like I don't quite have the life I want and I don't quite feel right within myself, the offness, that is actually an invitation to try to pray, try to meditate, try to open up your heart to the Creator.

Yeah.

And we're actually better at it if we get a little push.

The more pain you go through, it's reminding you you're out of alignment. Usually it's like, I'm suffering, I'm in pain, why do all these things keep happening to me? Why is everything a challenge and so hard? Why am I not making money? Why does everyone break up with me? Why is everyone no, it probably means you're disconnected to yourself. You're out of alignment, you're out of boundary, something is off. So this pain is going to keep showing you something is out of alignment within yourself, most likely. And when you can hopefully now get closer to what that is and connect to yourself, hopefully you, you'll find ways to release the pain.

And there's no better way to draw into alignment than to be an open system and allow the force of life to align you. That's true. Very often in the 20th century, the brain was thought of as a factory that makes thoughts. And if we're out of alignment, how can I think my way out of this? In the 21st century, the brain, Lewis Howes Howes, is thought of as an antenna that receives consciousness, a conduit. If I feel out of alignment, I can raise the antenna and What God do you ask of me now? Hand it over. We are built to hand it over every day of our lives. We are built, Lewis, as an open system to be in a sustained relationship with the Creator.

Yeah, and so if your brain is like an antenna and you're constantly covering your antenna with things that don't let you to have a clear signal to God, or to access to information or being resourceful or perceiving the world in a specific way, you're always gonna feel disconnected because you're covering your antenna. That's what I'm hearing you say.

And yet every one of us in the next 20 seconds can raise the antenna. Uh-huh. And open our heart, open our soul, and say, I'm here. I love you, God. I love you, creator, whatever your word is. Be present to receive, because the awakened brain, through the lens of science, is a receptive form of perception. The circuits in our brain are built to receive the presence of God.

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Spirituality.

Then why are so many people living in scarcity?

Right. It is an ailment of perception. Exactly. We have tremendous abundance. Uh-huh. We have abundance. In any given moment, we have a decision to make. We have two choices. We can make an achieving decision. Uh-huh. Okay, I'm sitting next to this new person at a dinner party. What can they do for me? Let me size them up. Are they bigger or smaller than me? That is called an achieving relationship. I'm measuring them up as if we're about to be competitors in a race, right? But at that same dinner party by the same person, in that same moment, I can make an awakened decision. I can realize that, wait a minute, this person sitting next to me, here's another soul on Earth. Of all people in all space and time right now, God has put me next to this person. And so I can ask a very simple question. Tell me about you. I'd love to get to know you. Can you tell me about the funniest day of your life? Can you tell me about the most beautiful moment? So Lewis, I was at a dinner party the other night and I couldn't listen one more peep about who'd accomplished what and Who paid what rent? I didn't wanna hear it. So I said, can you tell me about the most beautiful day of your life? And what came forward from that dinner party, I'll remember forever. One man talked about being in, after years and years of feeling disenfranchised, returning to his childhood house of worship. One woman talked about seeing light on the water as she was sailing. These were beautiful moments. And I walked away feeling like I'd actually made awakened relationships versus achieving relationships. Versus achieving relationships. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the most— I mean, the best way to do it, I think, maybe not the best way, but is when you go into an event knowing that everyone's always thinking of like these strategies.

Yeah.

For building relationships to get something. And if you're just a constant way of being is I'm just here to ask questions about others and learn about them. You're going to gain more than you've ever gained by trying to go in there and accomplish or strategize. If you just go in and ask people questions and listen, you're going to be the most interesting person in that room. Just by asking questions and being present, they'll be like, wow, I really like that person. What can I do to help you? They're just going to want to naturally help you because most people don't do that because you care about them. Exactly, exactly. That's powerful. I love the idea of awakening relationships versus achieving relationships.

We have a radically transactional culture when we violenced spiritual and religious life in the public square about 40 years ago.

Mm.

We don't talk about this here. People became all about business all the time. Now we're at a turning point, and the hunger of the heart is so great right now. Yeah. For true love, real relationships, to move out of narrow, monotonous, mm, achieving relationships, mm-hmm, and start to bring in awakened relationships.

Yeah, more depth, you know, beyond just results. And, you know, there's a quote from your book, The Spiritual Child, that says on page 28, it says spirituality is a vast untapped resource in our understanding of human development, illness, health, and healing. Specifically, research in medicine, psychology has found that people with a developed spirituality get less sick, are happier, and feel more connected and less isolated. And your data shows that a robust spiritual life is the single most protective factor against adolescent depression and substance abuse. I'm curious, why is spirituality more effective than other forms of therapy or support?

The adolescent is in a search for meaning, not because they choose to be, not because it's a cultural norm. It is hardwired. Because spirituality is innate, it has a developmental path. In adolescence, with literal biological puberty, the adolescent goes through a surge, a biological clock goes off for every teen. What is my purpose? What is my meaning? And I don't mean, is it gonna be, you know, law or business?

Yeah, doctor or this.

Yeah, yeah. What is my purpose as a soul on earth? And I don't mean, what meaning do I wanna make of this world? Lie upon the world? What is the meaning written into life, the golden thread through life? The teen is exquisitely good at seeking. We're built for it. But it doesn't come easy because with this expansion, hardwired expansion in our spiritual capacity, the teen can feel a half-empty glass of spirituality. Existential struggle, meaninglessness, exquisite rage at phoniness when things aren't true.

Kind of, what's the point of all this?

What's the point? And yet this is a gift, even though it hurts and it's hard. And it's very easy to get distracted as a teen, start using drugs, drink a lot, harm yourself. But actually, this struggle, this existential yearning Angst of the teen propels the teen to search, to search for God, to search for their higher power. And even their brain is sensitized to discover, to raise the antenna. Wow. The teen is sensitized to raise the antenna and start to receive the signals from God.

How hard is it for an adolescent or a young adult to raise their antenna to connect to God and be more spiritual when they're on drugs, when they're smoking or vaping or drinking or mindlessly on their phone for 15 hours a day, when they're not sleeping well? How hard is it for them to connect to spirituality and God?

This is not a solo act. Every teen needs the sangha, the mingyan, the journey group, the fellowship. You need your people. Who engage in authentic spiritual practice. If you have a teen who's drinking, who's self-harming, yes, of course they need therapy, but therapy alone is not enough. There needs to be a group, a youth group, a sangha, a group around the teen of people who feel God's presence and talk about it. Every teen needs their spiritual people. Yes, they're spiritual buddies.

Mm-hmm.

And they may be in school, they may be out of school.

Right. I mean, you've been a professor and a researcher at Columbia for over 25 years, and you also have, you know, kids who went through teen years. What was that like for you when your kids were teens, you know, with you as the expert, the researcher, the spiritual leader of the family in certain ways of hopefully guiding them Did they struggle just like every other teen? Did they go down the dark side for a while? Did they have these practices? How did they navigate this?

So spiritual individuation, the me and not me of what's real. Mm-hmm. Is God real? Does prayer speak to me? What's good and evil? What's the purpose, spiritual purpose of my life? That can only be done by the teen themselves.

Really?

No matter. Yeah, we can support them.

Yeah.

But it is built into our hardwired brain. Gosh, that spiritual individuation is a road we all must walk ourselves.

Wow.

Now, to have a youth group, to have a family around you, to have a group with whom you share the spiritual reality, put it in words, pray together, know that our relationship goes to that depth. This gives the two-thirds nourishment onto the one-third innate awakened brain. It is not enough to be born spiritual. We need to cultivate our spiritual awareness. And when as a parent we walk the walk and talk the walk, when we say, you know, you know, today Mommy was really out of sorts. I'm so sorry I was grumpy. I'm so sorry I was short with you. I apologize. But also, now that I've apologized to you, will you join me in a prayer? Because today was a gift and I feel I kind of squandered it. And the prayer might be whatever your words are in our home, you know, loving God, please forgive me and renew my heart that I might be present to your great love. Mm. And we might be present as a family to your love. Wow. So that you're back off to the races. Anything can be fixed.

Yes.

And when, as parents, we show our kids there's a spiritual response to a misstep, a spiritual response to suffering, what they really learn is that they can fix their lives spiritually.

Mm, that's beautiful. Because it's hard to fix your life physically, you know? It's hard to fix it through physical means in terms of, I'm going to smoke, drink, you know, do physical harm to myself to feel like that's going to make me feel better. You know, the physical numbing, I guess, of life is what I mean.

You know, through the lens of science, um, adolescents are exquisitely sensitive to both spiritual hunger but also to pain.

Why is that?

We're an open system. We're porous, we're wide open. And right at the time where we're strengthening and tooling up spiritually, we're at greatest risk to turn the wrong direction and make the pain go away. Really? And in fact, the protective benefits of spirituality against addiction are greatest in adolescence. All our lives, spirituality can help prevent drinking and drugs, but in adolescence, it is twice as protective— wow— to have a strong spiritual life.

And is there any data around kids who don't have a strong spiritual life if they get into more drugs or have children younger or, I don't know, go through abuse or anything like that? Do you have any data on that?

For a teen, a strong spiritual life is 80% protective against onset of addiction. Really? Adolescence being the trailhead of a lifetime course of struggle with addiction. A strong spiritual life is 70% protective against risk-taking, driving too fast, jumping out the window at a party. But a strong spiritual life— to the epidemic of our times, when spiritual life is shared by teens, it is 82% protective against completed suicide.

Really?

The number one killer of teens is now suicide. It has surpassed auto accident. So, Lewis, if I said, here's a little pill, you can give this to your teen, and it will protect them 4/5 against the greatest cause of death in teens. Who wouldn't give that to their child? And yet, to realize our natural spirituality is how we're built. Every parent has two jobs. One is to love your child, and the second is to build their spiritual core, and everything else will fall into place.

So when did suicide become the number one killer of teens? When did this happen?

So over the past 20 years, there's been a sharp decline in family faith observance, family spiritual life. And with that sharp decline in family spiritual life has been an equally sharp increase in the diseases of despair.

Wow.

Addiction, depression, and even suicide. The two statistically, Lewis, go hand in hand.

As spirituality has gone down as a shared family unit Harm, pain, suffering, addiction, suicide has gone up.

Yes.

Wow.

And as important as it is that each and every one of us cultivate our spiritual core, it is even more important as a parent to pass the torch to your child. The protective benefits are even greater if it is from your parent that your— or grandparent— that your spiritual life is built. So for instance, if a child inherits from their parent a deep spiritual practice through which they form an authentic, dynamic relationship with God, that child is 80% protected against major depression going through the sensitive window of risk, which is mid to late adolescence. Now, Lewis, if that torch is passed 2 generations, from grandparent to parent to child, that child is protected 90%. Wow. Against major depression going through the window of risk, which means that the carrier matters. You as a parent are an ambassador of spiritual life for your child. We're designed that way. You and the child.

Yes. Why does it seem like so many parents shy away from bringing spirituality, faith, prayer to their children?

Lewis Howes Howes, I've spoken with many parents, and the story I hear most often is, I'm just not sure what I believe. I don't want to tell them the wrong thing. A caring parent says, I don't want to do this wrong. We'll let them choose when they're older. Now, as well-intentioned as that may be, science says waiting is to foreclose. Do not wait. Do not wait. The child is primed to grow spiritually through the relationship with the parent. We don't need to be great experts to show up to the spiritual life of the child. I don't need to know a thing. About any religion or any great theology, to listen to the spiritual voice of my child and let them know it's real. That's all we need to do. So many children will have a mystical experience. They'll say, "You know, I saw Grandma," even though Grandma's in heaven. "Grandma came to see me." We don't need to be an expert. We can honor that great gift. Wow, Grandma must really love you. That's cool. What does that say to the child? Mystical experiences are real. You can trust yourself as a knower. You are authorized as a spiritual knower. Our relationship is sanctified. It goes to that depth. And in fact, you in your whole life are on a spiritual path.

If someone grows up in a family that has prayer, spirituality, potentially church, but then they see their parents do something that goes against it. The one teaching or leading them kind of breaks against what they've been teaching, or there's a divorce, or there's an affair, or there's physical abuse, or there was screaming, or they didn't feel safe as a child growing up, but they were trying to incorporate spirituality, prayer, lessons, church, or maybe they experienced something poor with the religious leader of the church that they witnessed that there wasn't a, a good thing or something. Does that hurt more the child when they see an adult leading through spirituality but making not minor mistakes but big mistakes? How does that affect the brain of a child?

Right.

Throughout their life.

The child is watching us exquisitely, so very closely. Do we walk the walk?

Uh-huh.

That we talk, right? So as a parent, as a clergy person, as a teacher, a coach, we are torchbearers. We don't make the fire. The fire is divine. We carry it. Every significant adult is a spiritual torchbearer to a child. The child's looking very closely. Are you walking in step with your teachings? Now, when we are a little bit foible, we can apologize and pray and fix it. That's being human. And it teaches the child a spiritual response to the human struggle. Yes. If we are more egregiously foible or harmful, the child has a tendency to look at the torchbearer and say, you're a hypocrite, you're phony, the flame is false. That is called spiritual injury. When the ambassador, the torchbearer, does not walk the walk. Okay. Spiritual injury is excruciating.

Yes.

Is profoundly painful. What does it sound like? I don't know if God is real. Everything you ever told me, Mom, Dad, Pastor, Priest, Iman, Coach, Teacher, is a lie. If you're phony, then the flame is phony.

Then God is phony, or this is phony, or I don't believe any of it.

Yeah, that's spiritual injury. Spiritual injury is very painful because the child is left in a very chilly, cold, damp place.

You feel alone.

Existential emptiness. Yeah, yeah. And yet, Lewis, the good news is spiritual injury can be healed. There's a way back from spiritual injury. The child can meet a good torchbearer who does walk the walk. And again, that could be a coach, a parent or grandparent. It could be a pastor, priest, imam, rabbi, a youth leader. And by watching closely a good torchbearer, they see another way of relating to the flame. The second way that spiritual injury can be healed is to bring God's presence into that very memory together, right? And ask God for guidance through that memory, through that moment. That's called post-traumatic spiritual growth. Suddenly I felt God would forgive us. Then I knew I was not to blame. The wiser truth that speaks to the inner heart. Post-traumatic spiritual growth. And then the third way is to invite the child into a direct connection, their own direct connection to God. The visualization we shared at the council table, I have done with homeless children who were abused and thrown out of the house. Every homeless child sleeping under the Brooklyn Bridge was able, through the council practice, to go back to God. Wow. No one had an empty table. There was always someone there. Grandmother. An uncle, a coach. They could see God. For some it was Jesus or Mary. For some it was a great white light. No matter what we've been through, we are built to receive God's presence in our brain.

Mm-hmm.

There was one time where a fellow said, you know, no one showed up in the first chair, those who truly have my best interest in mind. So he waited. With his eyes closed, and he said, "Ah, there she is. I know her." We said, "Who is she?" He said, "It's my future wife." Wow, that's crazy. Because our awakened awareness has information that has yet to unfold before us.

It's so interesting you say that because probably— I have to find this because it was probably the first or second year of the podcast 10, 11 years ago where I did a meditation with a friend of mine who's a coach. His name's Chris Lee where he had me visualize my future wife. And, it was at a time when I was single and I dated two other people actually after that that were not my wife. But, the person that I envisioned 10, 11, 12 years ago whenever this was is Martha, my current wife. Now I just had to go through some other lessons to get there, but it was like I called her from the future and it was really more like I needed to continue to become a certain way of being in order to be in alignment with her and her in alignment with me. So I was still going through my process and, but doing this practice, I was hopeful that I was coming in like 6 months, but it took a decade. But if I look back on that, having that, that moment, that exercise, that meditation, that prayer of visualizing it and having a spiritual day, he made me walk through what does this day look like with this person and who is this person, like really visualizing it. I felt like it, like implanted in my spiritual personality. It was like, okay, this is who I need to become eventually. I just wasn't ready to be that person yet.

But such loving, sacred guidance is available to us.

It is.

You chose to raise the antenna and receive loving, sacred guidance. 100%. I think you knew her when you saw her.

Yes. I was kind of frustrated because I didn't want to— I was like, oh shoot, right away I was like, dang it, this is different. I knew it. But I was like, oh, my ego wants to not have this be ready yet. But I was like, my— I feel like God was protecting me. God put her in my life to protect me, literally, from my ego. And, and so a part of me was like resistant for a moment, but I was like, I just need to surrender. I was like, this is what God wants for me. And it's been a beautiful journey.

So the surrender, the surrender— what God are you showing me now? What God do you ask of me now? See, that's the dialogue. Yes. That is how the awakened brain is built, to be an open system in dialogue with God. Yes. So this is not send out and you get what you ordered. This is listening.

And the chat— that, I mean, it was so undeniable because I think a lot of people say that when they get into relationship, oh, we have so many things in common. But there was so many— I would ask God this, maybe not daily but consistently. Throughout the first 3 months of getting to know Martha. And I was just like, show me a sign, a synchronicity that is so undeniable that I wouldn't believe it, that we're meant to continue this journey. I don't know if we're going to be together forever or if we're going to get married, but just that I need to continue down this dating journey with her. And it was just like stuff that I couldn't even believe was happening, the synchronicities. And they were there from the very first moment.

The God lay on your path.

It was like God was like screaming at me with such clarity. And it was like, if this is not a sign for me, uh, that you can't see, and I'm, you know, stubborn. So I needed a lot of them, but it was like months. And God just kept showing me these beautiful, like mystical synchronicities. I was just like, this is unbelievable.

Do you remember one?

The first one was very clear within the first 5 minutes of meeting her, probably 2 minutes of meeting her. I picked her up to go to dinner. I was in Mexico and she was in Mexico. We met up and I got my buddy's Jeep. I didn't have a car, so I just took his Jeep and I put my phone when I picked her up. We said hi, opened the door, she got in the car and my phone was sitting in the middle console, like the middle area of the Jeep. And then I came around and got in there and right away, like the screensaver was on and the light was on. It was at night. And so you could see kind of my phone screensaver and it was a photo of a young boy. And she looked down at it and kind of looked at me. I go, oh, don't worry, I don't have a kid. It looked like a, you know, like my son. I go, oh, don't worry, I don't have a kid. She goes, I know what that is. You're healing the inner child. And I was just like, Oh, jeez. And she goes, look at my phone. And she had a photo of herself. I get chills thinking about it. She had a photo of herself. She was like, I've been on this journey for a while. It's a beautiful journey, isn't it? And I was just like, holy cow, I get chills thinking about it. Because then just right away, the relationship is about depth, curiosity. It's not about trying to prove or achieve. It's not about like, oh, I'm trying to take this girl out to win her over or, you know, look good. It was more like, let's just connect and connect on a spiritual level. And that was a beautiful sign I felt from God. I was like, okay, I don't have to explain myself. You know, she understands it. And there's just so many things like that almost every week that were just mind-blowing. So But I needed to— my antenna needed to be cleaned and clear and elevated in order for me to receive these signs and not be scared of them, because I think I would have been scared of them years before.

They're for you. Yes, synchronicities are for you. They are, even if some of them are unpleasant.

Oh yeah, I mean, those are beautiful synchronicities, but some might be big red flag synchronicities, like, oh You shouldn't go down this path.

Like a dead bird on my doorstep, right?

Yeah, or something like that.

And so thank you, God, for the guidance, even if it's not what I want to hear. I'm being loved and held. I'm being guided. I am not alone. Yes, we don't need to get our way. See, that's narrow, relentless achieving awareness. If I'd gotten everything I wanted, it would not be my first choice life. I am so much more excited By the dialogue with God.

Yes.

By the awakened path that's led me to the life I lead. It's an inspired life.

It is an inspired life.

And you don't know where it's going.

You don't know where it's going. You have to trust.

Now you have the girls.

Yes.

Now you have the girls.

Twin girls. Which I told her when she, when we first met, maybe within like 6 months, she was like, do you see yourself having kids? And I go, yes, twin girls.

Wow.

I swear to you. Wow. And she goes, wow, really? And she had like twins in her family, like extended family and triplets in her family. And I was like, yeah, I see us having twin girls. I don't know why I said that, but I was just like, and I was also uncertain. I wasn't not, I wasn't like 100% like I want to just be a dad and have kids like earlier in my life. I was afraid of being with the wrong person, having kids and feeling trapped. That was with a fear. So I wasn't excited about married family life. If it meant feeling like a prisoner or caged, or I couldn't be myself, or, you know, whatever, going through a divorce like I experienced growing up with my parents. And so it was more of like I just didn't feel emotionally safe to think that way. But then when I was with her, I was like, oh, I feel safe. I feel emotionally, spiritually safe. There really is. The question was, once I got to a point where I said, okay, if I ever died, if something ever happened to me, do I feel emotionally and spiritually safe that this person could raise my kids, that they'd be able to figure it out, you know, and be resourceful enough? And that's what I felt with Martha, where I never felt that before. So for me, it was like, okay, I felt that safety.

In my path, I think if all of the achieving goals were gone, would there be a four-legged table holding up an awakened life? If, if tomorrow the achieving goals were gone, would there be a depth of soul connection, an awakened relationship? And Lewis, you're a huge success, but if you weren't, she'd love you just as much.

I think she would. Yeah.

Wow.

Well, something she would tell me all the time.

That's real.

Yeah. She was like, I'll follow you anywhere. You know, she would say that all the time. She still says that. And, you know, when she met me, I was in a— I mean, I was in a nice apartment, but it was a 2-bedroom apartment. I don't have a lot of stuff. You know, it's not like I didn't need a big house or anything. I've been in a 2-bedroom apartment my whole life, essentially adult life. And yeah, she's like, I'll follow you anywhere. If we need to be in a 1-bedroom apartment, if we need to be in a big home, if we want to, if we have to move wherever it is, I'll follow you anywhere.

From that first date.

Yeah.

You shared a depth.

Yes.

You shared an awakened relationship. Yes. Right out of the blocks.

Exactly. Right away.

Well, then you're never trapped. I don't feel trapped because there's no transaction.

No, I feel free.

You're free.

I feel accepted. And it makes me want to work hard to be able to provide a life that feels safe, that feels abundant, that feels joyful, playful, all these different things, adventurous. But, um, yeah, it feels good.

Bedrock unconditional love. It's an awakened partnership.

Yeah, it feels great.

I think of marriage less as a contract, more as a calling. Mm-hmm.

I think I do as well, because my whole vision for the relationship is how do we serve people at the highest level together. And that might be our children, that might be our community, our families, whatever it may be. But how do we come together to serve one another in our family, to then serve others.

How has being a father changed you?

You know, I feel like once they start talking, maybe I'll start to feel something even different. But it's changed me in the fact that, I mean, to wake up and look at like two little beautiful souls is such a cool thing. I mean, first off, for me, it's a cool thing. It's really gotten me even more in check with my integrity, with myself, my thoughts, actions, just even stronger integrity with self because I'm like, gosh, I just, I can't be a hypocrite with these girls. You know, even the littlest things they're going to find out. You know, it's like we observe our parents, right? We observe them. And I'm just like, I know I'm not going to be perfect. I know I'm going to make mistakes, but how can I be present and connected and responsible to lead them to what they're meant to be here for? So for me, I just feel like it's, it's calling me to be an even better version of myself.

Has it deepened your spirituality?

100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm also— I have to have trust in God that they're going to wake up. Otherwise you're anxious all night. You know, it's like you're just thinking, are they breathing? Are they going to be okay? Are they going to wake up? Like, you have to trust God that they will wake up, that they're going to be protected. You know, it's like it could be extremely emotionally debilitating, I think, if I didn't have trust. That they're gonna be okay.

So I hope someday you and Marta share your first date story with the girls. Oh, we will, because it's both a love story. Yes. And inspired spiritual, you know.

Hopefully they'll get to watch all these videos, you know. It's like I've got almost 2,000 interviews I've done.

Oh, they'll love it.

And so they can go through a record of just content of like, oh, what was Dad thinking at this time, you know, or what was Mom thinking at this time.

So So when we as parents, science says it's beautiful, so there's a finding. Science shows us that when we as parents speak out loud about our spiritual truth, that is the most powerful form of shaping the child's own spiritual awareness. The child's born with the capacity to perceive the spiritual reality. Every child has implicit spiritual cognition, which means unless socialized out of it, the young child will perceive continuity of spirit or consciousness after death.

Wow.

Unless socialized out of it, the young child will perceive that we can have direct knowing, inspiration, intuition without being told. It is only because they hear from adults, oh no, that's not real, that they come to lower and cover the antenna.

Yeah.

So we don't really teach spirituality, we nurture what's already in the child.

Yeah.

How do we nurture what's in our children? By living and breathing our own spiritual life out loud, full blast, in the car, on the playing field, and in the house of worship.

Do you know anyone who is against God, who's an atheist, who doesn't believe in spirituality, um, who lives a peaceful, abundant, joyful life?

I've seen people who call themselves humanists.

What does that mean?

That they think the ultimate reality is being good to other people. And some of those folks say that they're not spiritual, but in truth, as you do unto others, you do unto me. And the same parts of the brain through which we talk to God are the same parts of the brain through which I feel and see God in you. So really, the humanist And the Orthodox or Evangelical are using the same parts of their brain.

So they're more, they still have a code of morals and ethics and values and service to other humans.

And just as we're loved, held, and never alone, they show up for others to be loving, guiding, and never leave anyone alone.

Yeah. So they still live with a similar, I guess, act of kindness, love, joy, service to others, which brings them that peace and joy.

It's fascinating, Lewis. We looked, over 10 years of MRI studies at the spiritually engaged brain. The very last study we did was to say what practices of spiritual and religious life most strengthen our awakened brain. And we looked at everything— transcendent practice, moral living, all sorts of things, meditation, prayer— and it all shapes and matters. It all matters in shaping the awakened brain. But the number one predictor of a strong awakened brain is altruism, love of neighbor. So when we, with our feet, I call it prayer in action, are loving, guiding, and never leave anyone alone, we are literally engaging the same neuro-docking station that allows us to feel God's presence. So Mother Teresa had many years, dark night of the soul, towards the end of her life, where it was service and service alone. That sustained her soul. Mother Teresa had profound mystical experiences in the first part of her life, and the second part of her life struggled with the darkness, and yet felt sustained, but through service, profound altruism.

I didn't know she had that darkness. What was that about? Did she have like a disconnect to God, or what was it like?

So what we know from the records is that she still continued to feel God's presence through service.

Wow.

So if someone really feels stuck, walk out the door and serve, give, because that is prayer in action.

Interesting. Now, how do you distinguish between religion and spirituality in a lab setting or in a research setting?

Yes, so this— we can use a twin study to determine whether any human capacity is inborn or environmentally formed. So Height and weight is largely inborn, right? Uh, temperament is about half inborn if we're extroverted, introverted. The capacity through which we experience spirituality, a connection to God, whatever our word, is innate. It is 1/3 innate, 2/3 cultivated. Religion, no matter what our tradition may be, the beautiful world faith traditions— Hindu, Catholic, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever our tradition may be. Religion is environmentally transmitted. The beautiful texts, the practices, the community, all are forms. They're really gifts of our parents and grandparents. We might choose a tradition and immerse ourselves. Religion is environmentally transmitted. Spirituality is innate. Hmm. For two-thirds of Americans, spirituality and religion go hand in hand. It's through my faith tradition, they will say, that I cultivate my natural spiritual awareness. So we're all born to feel God's presence, but what we call God, and whether we pray or meditate, and the stories we learn to help us cultivate that depth of relationship— those are gifts of our environment. Those may come from our religion.

Yes. Beyond just loving our kids, what's the number one thing a parent can do for a child?

Beyond loving our kids, There is one and one alone job of every parent, which is to build the spiritual core. If you want your child to be healthier, to have good character, to be able to love and make commitments, build the spiritual core. In fact, Lewis, we looked at 270,000 young kids, 8 through 17, and what we saw was that those kids with a strong spirituality had more grit, more optimism, more forgiveness, Character, which is virtue, but it's also traction towards your mission and goals. Character is how you perform in the world at the end of the day. So if you want even an outwardly performing kid, it all is rooted in the spiritual core.

Interesting. And when you look at 270,000 kids, is it through brain scans, through MRIs, through studying other things? Like, how do you see that? And is it a, a certain percentage of those that were doing— that had spiritual core that were performing better than others?

Lewis, we looked all around the world. We did a mass survey of 270,000 kids. And what we saw was that some kids were very high in grit and optimism and forgiveness and temperance and judgment. All of the character strengths and virtues load into the same kids. What can be said about those kids? They have a strong spiritual core. And then we looked at those kids who we love just as much, who are low in grit and low in optimism and temperance and judgment. And they tended not to have a strong spiritual core. Spirituality and character go hand in hand. And when we looked at what predicts what, it is spirituality that is the root. Character, the beautiful magnolias.

So if a parent is thinking, you know what, I'm gonna love my kids by taking them to every class, by tutoring them, by putting them in every workshop or afterschool activity and showing up on the sideline at every game and just, drilling in that they've got to work hard, be gritty, have character, and succeed, but I don't bring an element of spiritual connection to their life. What happens to those kids of parents that are meaning well, potentially in their own mind, to create kids that deliver results or perform but lack the spiritual connection?

Narrow achieving parenting. Leads kids to be depressed, to feel that they have to sing for their supper. Wow. That I am only as worthy in your eyes, Dad, as my latest win. Contingent love. And in fact, contingent love is actually found more commonly in high-achieving families. Contingent love is experienced by a child as I'm only as good as my outward success. So if I don't get into this college, or if I come home with a D or even a B minus, my dad's literally going to love me less. Wow. That is the felt experience. It's associated with depression. It's associated with addiction. It's even associated with sociopathy, that every relationship's a deal. Wow. But, but as a parent, this moment, this is actually a very— this story has a happy ending. As a parent, at every moment we can say, wait a minute, whether it's riding to school, in the SUV or talking about the loss on the baseball field, this moment is also a spiritual moment. There is a golden thread that goes through every parent-child moment in life, an opportunity to witness God's presence. Okay, you know what? It's true you lost, but you were so gracious to that kid from the other team. You treated him as your brother. Isn't that what God would want us to do? Okay, I see that you've gotten a D and you're disappointed, but let's sit down here, you know, and show me proud and see What comes to you? You know, I don't care if you come home with an A, B, C, or D when it comes to how much I love you. Yeah, I love you because you're my child. I love you because you're God's child. I love you as a soul on Earth. And now let's sit here shoulder to shoulder on the same team and figure out a plan where we can attack this class another way.

That's cool. I like that.

So there's two ways to pick up your child. Every day from third grade, you could have an achieving greeting or you can have an awakened greeting. The achieving greeting is, did you win today? The achieving greeting is, how'd the math test go? The awakened greeting is, I am so excited to see you. Hi, sparkly eyes. You know, Dad loves you. Mom loves you. And then of course, a good parent wants to know how you're doing in school, but it's not the bedrock of our relationship. I love you not just because I say it, but because I show it. Whether it's A, B, C, or D today, you light up my world.

Yeah, that's cool. And how can a parent then help their child grow spiritually if they don't believe in anything themselves?

Oh, it's such an important question. The child comes a naturally spiritual child. The child will spontaneously share beautiful— I Heart-rendering, just beautiful moments. So much love and forgiveness. I remember when my center child, who goes by Center Child, was in nursery school, there was this little boy, Lewis Howes, like clockwork, right before the teacher opened the door to start the day, this little boy would come up and give her a swift kick. And it, you know, as a parent, it was very upsetting. My husband was so angry, he was gonna sue the nursery school. You know, they were very distressed. But what did the little child say? What did my daughter say? Oh, sweet little John, I'm teaching him not to kick. Mm. The child has a compassion already written into who they are. In fact, natural spirituality in the young child awakens spirituality in us as parents. A child will see fellow living beings, little ducks in the park, geese, as sisters and brothers, as friends. Unless we say to them, hey, that little goose just wants your breadcrumbs, that's a transaction, the child will think they are friends because they are. A child loves family, their classroom, the wholeness of we. If someone's not at school, they'll say, you know what, Agatha was not in school today. Apparently she's not feeling well. We each matter. Our absence matters. A child loves spiritual ceremony, wants to sing in the choir, wants to pray. I've heard Sufi parents say that it's as if they know the movement before they're even taught. Children come hardwired to live and breathe spiritual life unless we shut it down. If I don't know as a parent what to say or what to do, it is 100% good enough to show up and say, wow, What do you feel? What do you think? In fact, often the child doesn't want an answer to their question. If a child says, why does God allow bad people to be on Earth? They don't always necessarily want the answer. The child's looking for us to show up and be with them while they explore. Yeah. The lesson that we as parents actually convey is that life is a big sacred quest. We don't need to know the summative answer, the period at the end of the sentence. We need to have a stance of quest to be game for a spiritual discovery.

Yes.

So we model spiritual exploration when we say, "Wow, what's your heart say? What's your inner compass show you?" Authorize our children as spiritual knowers, and their whole life they'll be able to use their inner compass for life's biggest challenges.

As a parent to new twins, what is something that you would recommend I never do?

When your child has a spiritual question or spiritual experience, comes to you maybe even saying the thing you don't want to hear, okay, don't tell them it's not real. Never tell your child they're not a knower. The most important thing we do as parents is authorize our children as direct knowers. That's not real is the worst thing you can say to your child about everything, about like Santa Claus, or, you know, about what? That's not real says that whatever level of reality you're experiencing that on, I have just invalidated. Mm-hmm. Lewis Howes, I've had so many people come to me as young adults saying, I was such a spiritual child, and my dad told me it wasn't real, and it took me years to come back. Interesting, right? So for instance, a parent might have a tiff with their religious tradition, but the child, your own child, may have a profound, authentic spiritual experience in that very tradition.

Don't diminish it.

Let them have their own spiritual path.

That's cool. The book is really inspiring. I want people to learn more about this book, The Spiritual Child, which is the new science of parenting for health and lifelong thriving. And I feel like in a time right now where, uh, I feel like parenting for most seems to be, from what I hear, is harder than ever because of social media, because of devices, because of AI, because of whatever challenges at school that might be different than what they were in the past, because of comparison and judgment. Is higher than ever, it seems like, because you're not comparing yourself with your own peers. You're comparing yourself with every kid in the world on social media. So I hear parenting is really hard for a lot of people. And you really go into the science about how to parent children for a healthy, happier, longer life. And I think at a time where people are confused more than ever, this is a book that people need more than ever. The Spiritual Child. By Dr. Lisa Miller. What is, uh, one thing that you think people will get out of this book that will support them in overcoming the challenges of parenting in this modern era?

There's a lot of frustration, there's a lot of despair, there's a lot of feeling that somehow the world's coming to an end, but those are just perceptions. And when we waken to the presence of the spiritual presence in our lives that fills our homes and that opens our eyes and lets our children see clearly. Every day is an incredible, glorious gift. Yes. Good morning, honey. Thank God we're all alive.

Mm-hmm.

Let's see what today has in store.

Yeah, this goes back to the beginning where you said like the biggest illness is our perception.

Yes.

Our inability to perceive things better than how we perceive them as worse is what I'm hearing you say.

If you have a direct connection to God, nothing can break you. Amen. So if there's one thing we give our child, it is to fortify their birthright, their own direct connection to God. Then nothing can break your child.

100%. That's beautiful. It might be a challenge that they're going to have to face. They might have to overcome some pain and suffering and sadness. Funny. But as long as they stay connected spiritually, it will keep them on a path to overcome that challenge. And I think that's what we all want. So I want people to get the book, The Spiritual Child: The New Science of Parenting for Health and Lifelong Thriving. Lots of great research in here.

And your child will find her calling.

I think that's what every parent wants, probably, right?

Their soul's path, their calling.

That's it. I'm in a season right now where it's like my daughters are, you know, 6 months. They're not talking yet and they're not walking yet. But I can only imagine what that would be like when they're asking questions and walking and adventuring. And that's all I'm going to want them to do is learn how to, to develop their unique innate gifts inside of them and then share that with the world. I'm assuming that's what I want for them.

So because they'll be watching you.

Exactly.

They will. People say to me, if there's one thing that I want to tell my child in high school so that they can then go off to college or get a job and know there's a framework to live by. In my work with the Pentagon, we took The Spiritual Child, 10,000, 20,000 people in the Pentagon read The Spiritual Child and distilled this to 4 Ps. You need a practice through which you connect to your higher power. You need your people with whom together you connect to the higher power. And share that practice. You need an ultimate purpose and you need your path. The 4 Ps. All of those are rooted in a connection to God or your higher power.

I love that, that when we develop our own practice, we find the right people, we pursue our purpose on our own path through the connection to God, that probably feels like you're living on mission.

Then you're walking your spiritual path, living on mission.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I want people to get your book, The Spiritual Child, um, and also check out your website and social media, Dr. Lisa Miller over on Instagram. You've got workshops for adults and workshops for spiritual parenting as well. So if they go to your social media, if they go to your website, they can get updated on when you're doing more of those workshops as well, and they can get your book, which is really inspiring. I asked you this question before in the last interview. I'm going to have to go back and see what you said, if it's different from now. But I asked you about the 3 truths. I don't know if you remember what you shared then, but if you could imagine living as long as you want to live on this earth, but on the final day you have to take all of your work with you, your books, courses, this interview, it has to go. It's not on this earth anymore. But on your last day of life, you get to share 3 lessons with the world. What would those 3 lessons or 3 truths be for you?

Listen to what God has in store for you. Mm. Show up and be a trail angel for someone. Walk with them on their spiritual path. Third, above all else, most importantly, teach your children to love God.

That's good.

That's good. Every bit of science says the most important thing we can ever do is teach our children to love God. Wow. So that is not just a gift as a mother, that's a gift as a scientist.

Yeah.

Hundreds of peer-reviewed articles. One thing we can do for our children: teach them to love God.

Wow, that's beautiful. And Lisa, your definition of greatness?

Listening and try to live out God's plan.

That's it. Dr. Lisa Miller, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

Beautiful to connect with you.

Beautiful. I don't think that the human brain, for all its beauty and abilities, is capable of managing everything that life here on Earth presents to us. And so for me, this notion of higher power and faith-based practices has been enormously powerful for me in terms of helping me navigate decision space