THE SECRET To Getting Comfortable With BEING UNCOMFORTABLE | Luvvie Ajayi Jones & Lewis Howes

I think oftentimes we deny our gifts, we deny our purpose, because we're afraid of what could come with it.

Welcome, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. Super excited. We've got Lovie Ajayi Jones in the house. And I'm so glad you're here. I love your bio. The first line of your bio says you thrive at the intersection of comedy, justice, and professional troublemaking. Can you share with me what that intersection actually means and what it looks.

Like that intersection is? My career has been in multiple industries, multiple spaces at the same time. I'm the person who at no point could you put in one box. And people were like, what do you do? And I'm like, I do a lot. So that was a way to capture it because my work is changing. Humorous. I really care about the world, and I'm usually shaking the table. So all of that, whether I'm on my podcast, whether it's my book, whether I am just on social, it usually falls under those things. I'm making you laugh, I'm making you think critically and hopefully making you leave the world better than you found it.

Okay, I like that. And what do you mean by shake the table? Does that mean you're confronting everyone and making everything uncomfortable to think and question your beliefs? What does that mean?

Yeah, I'm shaking the table. I'm the person who's saying what you're thinking, but you probably dare not to say. For whatever reason. People often say that I'm putting words to their feelings about the world, about if it's tv, whether it's, you know, social justice, whether it's just randomness, and I'm typically the person that's like, here's what I think. And people are like, oh, my God, I wanted to say that. I just didn't know how to say it.

So that's what that means, is it? I mean, especially with what's happening right now in the world. And I think over the last few years, from MeToo movement coming out, where men may be feeling like they can't share or speak in the way they used to want to speak, which is all great. And now with the social justice movement coming even stronger, in this kind of climate, do you feel like people want to say things, but they're more afraid than ever to speak how they feel because of the cancel culture, because of backlash, because of judgment, because of shame?

Yeah, there's a thousand reasons to not speak. It's sometimes just easier to shut up and face your face, Face the wall and be in the Corner. But I really challenge people to not fall into that temptation, because I feel like part of the reason why we find ourselves in these moments that feel deeply uncomfortable in the world is that we've been too quiet for too long. We've taken the easy way out of. You know what? It's not my business. I will face my front. But really what it's turning up to be is that many moments of being quiet in the face of things that are going wrong will turn into cataclysmic moments of, how did we get here? Well, if enough of us have stayed quiet for long enough, if enough of us who have power have stayed quiet for long enough, we're going to look up and realize that we've created a mess. And then we'll be like, well, how do we fix it now? We got to just start talking.

So who should be talking and who should be shutting up?

Ooh. Good question. Okay, it depends. I think everybody should be talking.

Everyone.

But it depends.

On speaker. Speak your mind. Speak how you feel, even if it's right, wrong, good, bad, you know, somewhere between.

Here's the thing. Everybody should be speaking, but to different people, right? So everyone should not just be yelling to ether and thinking, I'm doing the work. No. Some of us who have platforms have thousands and millions of people who listen to us. We can be talking to them. Some people are like, well, I don't have a platform. I'm just a regular person who's sitting at home. You. You should be talking to your family members and your friends, right? So everybody in our spaces where we are, and maybe you're the VP of a department, be talking to your employees and maybe your bosses. So who you're talking to is different. And it's not just saying you're talking for the sake of talking. You're thoughtfully talking, you know, thoughtfully speaking truths because, you know, keeping it real can definitely go wrong. It's not about just. Just be out here just saying whatever. I think it's really important that people speak, stop, listen, and then figure out what their role is in the rooms that they're in. Oftentimes we're like, yo, the world is a dumpster fire. But I'm always like, okay, the world is a dumpster fire, but what am I doing in my own space to try to clean up the fire, right? Like, how am I trying to put out the fire that's happening? I can't put out global fires, but I can put out fires with my friends. I can put out fires. People who have access To I can text somebody who says something inappropriate online and say, hey, friend, that's not okay. So that's my job, to speak to people I know and then to speak to the people who listen to me.

What about? I mean, you know what? I like how you say, like, hey, I'm going to text my friend privately and say, you know what, the way you said that, or post that online. It really doesn't jive with me because of these reasons. Should we be doing more of that or should everyone be trying to cancel everyone publicly and ruin their life? For one thing, they said that maybe was, you know, not the right or just thing to say in that moment.

No, because I think here's the thing is, no matter what we're saying online, it does not matter if we're not saying it at home. I can say a thousand things to my followers. But if I'm not holding my friends accountable, if I'm not holding myself accountable, then the talking and grandstanding is just that. It's empty. Because we know that the people that we can touch and move to act quicker are the people who already trust us. So people who know us in real life, people who love us, people we work with, we have more impact and influence over them than we have over other people. So if we are not doing our jobs, being our brother and sister's keeper, then what are we yelling online for? So it's why a lot of people have problems with influencers, because people often feel like folks aren't genuine in the way they show up online as they do in real life. And for me, it's deeply important. For me, one of my core values is honesty, and my integrity is huge.

For me, I thought shea butter was the main one.

Shea butters, absolutely. You know, I have some on my desk. I could pull some. I'm always within two feet of butters. But, yeah, it's why people are inconsistent. Because if I'm this loudmouth online, this person who is opinionated and speaking truth to power, but I'm never speaking truth of power to people I know in real life, then what is this platform that I have? So we have to be consistently who we are, whether people are looking or not.

What are the beliefs you have now that you strongly believe in that were completely different when you were growing up or at a different time in your life?

Oh, that's a good question. I probably give people more grace now, to your point of it's not about canceling people, but people can absolutely grow. I'm definitely kinder than I was in my young times, you know, I'm definitely more thoughtful than I was. And that's the hope we have to continuously be different and be a better version of ourselves. So my whole thing is I want to be the person whose beliefs can shift once she finds out better information. You know, oftentimes we will stay stuck in whatever we believe in. It's why humans are really hard convince otherwise once we have our ideas in our heads. But what happens when we are actually more malleable and say, hey, somebody just told me something different? I'm actually going to give that consideration, figure out if it should change the way I'm thinking through this topic. If we are more like that, we will be more likely to, you know, show up and evolve and do something different.

Yeah, you got it. Your book is called I'm judging you. And you know, my. My friend Gabby Bernstein has a book called Judgment Detox because she talks about how judgment is really causing you to suffer more. And when you're judging someone else, you're. You're really reflecting the judgment you have on yourself. The shame, the insecurities, the guilt, the things you know, you're not doing that you should be doing, and you're reflecting that judgment other people. So what do you mean by I'm judging you? And how is that helpful as opposed to hurtful?

So my book was called I'm judging you for the reason of. Let's actually be honest. We are all judging each other. You're absolutely judging me. Good or bad. Right. The problem is that the things that we judge each other on are the things we shouldn't. You know, we're judging each other on color of our skin, who we love, what deity we worship, you know, what size our body is. When really we should be judging each other on how are you showing up better for other humans? How are you growing as a person? How are you being a good neighbor to the person that you don't even know? How are you showing up in the world? So that's why I called it I'm judging you because I was like, I'm absolutely judging us. We do really trash things as humans. And those things, we should talk about them. We should talk about, you know, homophobia. We should talk about Islamophobia. We should talk about fat shaming. We should talk about all these things because we should judge each other. The fact that we do that.

Yeah.

So what happens when we hold each other accountable to be like, hey, I peeped this thing that you do? Do you think it's time to fix it. In fact, I have some ideas on how you can fix it. So that's really what the book is. And it's me really also judging myself because I'm also ridiculous, as we all are. Like, we have to be very self aware. I do ridiculous things. And like, I'm always late to something. I know I am the friend who my friends have to trick to brunch. I'm showing up 30 minutes late, so they will tell me brunch is at 1:30, it's really at 2, and I'll show up at 2:15.

Wow.

I start the book off by being like, first of all, I'm laying prostrate here. I know I'm terrible. I'm trying to do better. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on that.

So you're laying your phone flaws out that you're judging yourself on everything that you're not being held accountable to or out of integrity to on time or whatever it may be, right?

Absolutely. We must.

So why, so why? Why judge other people if we're not perfect human beings?

Perfection will never happen. But the things that we do as humans are very tied to the things that people allow us to do. Our friends, our family members, and our coworkers and the people in our communities definitely dictate what we are allowed to do. So if we are allowed, for example.

What do you mean example?

If you are in a group of friends who everybody's always late, you're like, I'm gonna be late too, Right? But if you are in a group of friends where Everybody shows up 15 minutes early, you're gonna start showing up 15 minutes early because you're like, I don't want to hear their mouth. And also, this is what is normal for us. So the norms that we see around us, whether big or small, dictate how we behave. So when people are openly racist, for example, it's because they know that their community is allowing that and saying, yes, that's fine. But if I know I can't come to one of my friends and make a homophobic joke, I'm less likely to make that joke. So I always challenge people to say, whenever things are happening around you that don't seem okay, reflect on yourself as a person who this thing is happening around. Because have you tolerated it? Have you enabled it? Have you been quiet when you should have challenged it? If you do more of that, we'll start seeing more people behave. We can use peer pressure for good things, like, let's be better people, let's Use peer pressure to be better people.

Yeah. Do you feel like you doubt yourself more after you wrote the book, after the TED Talk, after, you know, you built an audience? Or did you doubt yourself more in the first 10 years of writing and kind of figuring out your voice in a professional level for your career?

I think I doubted myself more in the beginning, not because I didn't believe in my. How good my work was. Well, maybe it was that, but I also didn't. So it took me nine years to call myself a writer, by the way. It took me nine years to accept the fact that I'm actually supposed to use my words as my career thing. I was in marketing for a nonprofit, and I was blogging. I've been blogging for 17 years. But I thought blogging was just a hobby. I thought it was just this cute thing that I did after work, but I did not take it seriously. So that has some doubt attached to it because I doubted that I could be professionally a writer, a speaker, a user of words like, you didn't go.

To school for writing. This wasn't like your.

My degrees in psychology.

Yeah, it's even better, in my opinion, to have that. But.

Right. But I didn't think that it was a career because I was just, like. I didn't see what it looked like in the version of me. So I was thinking, writers are Toni Morrison, you know, J.K. rowling. That's a writer. So I'm just loving, but finally getting these different opportunities. I think 2012 is when I first started calling myself a writer, and that's because I ended up getting credentialed to do press coverage at the Academy Awards on the red carpet and backstage. Most journalists don't actually even get backstage. I was backstage, and I was like, oh, I've actually made it here with journalists from the BBC, from cnn, from New York Times, and here I am from my blog.

From your blog.

You got the credential in the same space as the rest of you? Okay, I guess I'm a writer.

Wow. That's cool.

Yeah.

How did that come about? Where you got that credential? Was that something you applied for? Did you build a relationship with someone and you submitted something? How did that work?

Yeah, a producer who worked in Hollywood emailed me out of the blue. Stephanie Frederick. She said, I read your blog. I think it's amazing. I think you should do. You should come to the Academy Awards. And I was like, huh. Would never have thought about it by myself and applied for credentials, got it and changed my life.

Wow. And were you making money as a writer, a blogger writer at that time? Was it just.

Yeah, yeah.

A little bit here and there writing articles or.

I was making a little bit of money, but I was making money because I got laid off my full time job two years before. In 2010. April 2010. So I, being the grinder that I am, I was like, well, what I was doing, which is the marketing, the digital strategy, social media marketing, I just do it for small business owners as I'm looking for another full time job. So that actually kept me afloat.

So you had some retainer work from. For some small businesses?

Yeah, I was creating websites. I was doing like anything attached to the web space. Just I taught myself how to design. I was just like, let's make it happen. But I was still looking for full time jobs because again, I was like, this is just temporary. No, it wasn't.

Yeah, but you were writing what, every day or consistently?

Yeah, I was writing probably three times a week.

Wow. And this was just your own personal opinion about things? This was reflecting on what you saw in culture or culture.

I was writing about tv. My recap started really getting a lot of. Anytime awards came on, people would be like, I want to go read Lovey's recap to find out what I missed or relive what I saw. I'd write, you know, posts about, yeah, what's happening in the world. I remember there was a time when I was like, Spirit Airlines is like, broke. Break your Spirit Airlines. That was a big post that people.

Still share because Break youk Spirit Airlines.

Break youk Spirit Airlines is. Oh, man. The experience is, I did it one time, never again. And I wrote about it and people were like, oh, my gosh, I've done one of those. And I thought I was gonna die if I even landed, because it was a whole journey. Spirit Airlines, it's the cheapest airline.

It's cheaper than Southwest, or it's like $25 a flight.

You, like, pay for air. Like, they make you pay for like the boarding pass. If you have to print the boarding pass, it's like eight bucks. Wow. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I wrote a blog post about it and people were like, yes. So that's how I actually grew up. The brand Lovey is my blog. People reading it, sharing it with other people, passing it on and being like, this is so good. It made me laugh. And so everything that I was doing was growing at the same time.

Now why does the credentials at the Academy Awards, why was that life changing for you?

It Was a mindset shift. It is what made me say, you are a writer. Take this seriously. It's not just a hobby, and you have a real gift that's going to bring you into rooms with people you never thought you'd be in rooms with. So it really shifted the idea of what I was doing. And I feel like I got more intentional about it. I got more serious about it. I paid more attention and didn't wave it away as just a hobby. And really, my fears of being a writer were like, how do writers who are not writing novels make money? You know, how do they get their shoe habit together? Because I love shoes, right? So that's one of my vices. And all my fears in terms of how do we make money as writers, kind of fell by the wayside. Got two columns in magazines, got a lot of brands now being like, because of your words, because you're writing, because your audience, we trust you. We want to work with you. So I did a bunch of brand ambassadorships. So all of it came together.

Do you think we need acknowledgement or physical success in order to give us permission that we can go all in on something? Or do you not need that? You think. Because it sounds like that was a moment that was like, okay, this was an accomplishment or a moment in time that was physically, I was accepted in this space. Now I'm going to believe in myself. Or can we believe and just keep creating without those?

We can absolutely believe. And I. And part of the message for me that I tell people is like, it took that moment, that very clear, literal moment of being in the room for me to say, oh, got it. But for other people, I'm like, you can skip that stage. You can skip having to be in the physical room and knowing that if people have told you you have this gift, if you really, truly believe you have this gift, you're. You can go all in without the permission. You can go all in without having to have this massive moment to be like, oh, light bulb. I think oftentimes we deny our gifts. We deny our purpose because we're afraid of what could come with it. We're afraid of what happens when you actually own this. Because we're afraid of the failure that could be attached to it. When I wasn't calling myself a writer, if my blog didn't do anything good, I didn't fail. There's no skin in the game. I wasn't a writer. It's fine. But now that I called myself a writer, oof. Okay, so if these worst things don't don't, don't go, well, then I might have failed. But I also think we make that judgment call on ourselves of what does failure actually look like? Right. What does it look like to fail as a writer? Does it mean you didn't sell a certain number of books? I think to fail as a writer is to just stop writing. So we just have to kind of switch the idea of what failure looks like so we can be less afraid of it, so we can own it earlier.

Yeah. And in the TED Talk, you did you talk about the being the first domino. What is it? What does that mean? And how have you been the first domino in different areas of your life?

Being the first domino is about doing something that feels deeply uncomfortable, that you're like, I don't want to do this. I'm going to do it anyway. Knowing that you might be on an island by yourself, whatever that thing is. Sometimes it's being in a meeting and somebody gives a terrible idea for a campaign in that moment. Being the first domino might be, hey, guys, I don't think that campaign is as thoughtful as it needs to be. And I think we should rethink that. Could be being the first domino. It could be being at home at Thanksgiving dinner and your uncle makes a racist joke. You being like, hey, uncle, that's actually inappropriate. And I really would hope you. You would be better than that. That's being the first domino. And sometimes being the domino is saying, you know what? I'm going to quit my job, because I know it's not serving me. So it looks different every single day in all different areas. And I really want us to honor those moments because somebody asked me last week and said, I'm afraid of this thing that I want to do. Is it weird? No. They asked me. I was asked to do a speaking engagement. I'm really afraid of it. Is that normal? I said, yes. You being afraid of it, that is the norm. Just know that's a thing. I've been speaking for 10 years professionally. Sometimes I still get nervous. But in that moment, being the domino is okay. Acknowledging it and being like, all right, gonna do it anyway. Even. Even if my voice is gonna shake as I'm doing it, Here I am. Let's go.

Yeah. Well, what do you think is the part of your life that you still have yet to overcome that, you know, if you overcome, you'll step into a deeper sense of greatness for yourself.

Fear of success. I am afraid of success. Like, big success. I feel like I'm successful now because I Define success as like, living life on my own terms, but when? So I'll give you an example. I'm writing my second book right now, and it's called the Fearfighter Manual. And I sent it to one of my mentors. I sent three chapters of it to one of my mentors, and she called me and she said, lovey, this book is bigger than you. And I instantly felt my heart beating fast. She was like, this book is bigger than you, and I need you to understand it. In reading these three chapters, I wanted to highlight the whole thing. This book is going to transform your life, and I don't think you know how much. And I got scared. I was like. She's like, I just had to tell you that for me, fear of success is because I'm afraid of how life does change when more people really know your name. You know, all the things that come with it. When I wanted to start writing and when I just started writing and knowing all I wanted to do, just put words on paper, I wasn't attaching visibility to it all. The whole having a big platform thing came as a byproduct. I never really boosted posts that made my blog go big. So the motive has never been for me to be known. So even the idea, even after all these years, still scares me. So the idea of being known by even more people absolutely scares me because I'm like, okay, the bigger you get, the more of a target that you are, the more your mistakes are bigger. All of that is still something that even this professional troublemaker is still afraid about. So. I don't know, it just feels like everything just gets amplified and everything is bigger. The good and the bad, right? So I'm focusing on the bad, but, you know, working on it. In therapy, my therapist was like, what is the big deal? And I was like, oh, gosh, I never wanted to be known. So now that it's like, coming because of my career just naturally growing, I'm having to also make sure I have to evolve fast enough for it.

What does that look like, Evolving fast enough for it? What have you yet to evolve to?

I still see myself as, like, really normal because I am, you know, like, really normal.

Really.

I'm very grounded. I have very strong boundaries. I surround myself with the people I love. So there are times when pre corona if I'm going out. Once I was in the airport, 6am of course, I'm late for my flight because my naturally. And I'm like, probably running from my gate and somebody recognizes me who reads my work and they're like, oh my God. Also, I'm not a morning person, right? So I'm not necessarily that pleasant in the morning. Not that I'm rude, it's just I'm not chipper. I am definitely not all smiles and thumbs up. I'm still trying to figure out what my name is. So in that moment, I have to play the character they're looking for, right? They're looking for the lovey that's gonna be all energy and be like, oh my God, nice to meet you. So having to. And I'm not a great actress, so having to evolve to the point of like understanding that sometimes I might have to pull some energy that I don't have to ensure that people who see me feel seen themselves. So even that type of evolution, the things that don't come with the manual, right? You know, how do you deal with more money? How do you deal with friends that might fall by the wayside? You know, how do you deal with just changing projections of you? And then how do you also make sure that all the noise does not penetrate and distract you? All of that comes with it.

Yeah, it's interesting. The last few years I've been doing, doing research on my next book, which is about overcoming self doubt. And there are three main causes of why we doubt ourselves. The fear of failure, which is a big one for people. The fear of success, which I didn't realize was a big thing until I started asking everyone that. They were almost equally as afraid of the success that they would have and the responsibilities, the weight, you know, the opinions, the judgment, and then the fear of judgment in general. So those three things is why we doubt ourselves the most. And actually going after the things we want. Our dreams, our passions, the relationships, whatever it may be. And the fear of success is big one, because when you change, when your life changes for the better, and the people around you are not increment, are incrementally growing or maybe staying kind of the same, and they're stuck in their ways. I'll never forget when I left college to go chase a dream of playing professional football. I never made the NFL, but I was going to NFL combines and tryouts and I was never good enough. But I played arena football. And I remember there were other guys on my team that were better than me, but they didn't go chase their dream. And it was almost like right when I got the contract and started playing, like my friends didn't talk to me from college anymore. And I was like, I was so hurt. Yeah, that I was just like, what the heck? You know, I would reach out to them. They want to get back to me. I was like, aren't you guys happy for me? Like, I'm going out and doing my thing. But sometimes people, you know, they see a mirror in themselves when you go after the thing that you want and they're not going after what they want 100%. Or they play it safe a little bit, or they do something they don't truly love.

Yeah.

Or they're at least not on the path towards growing. It's like, it can be a challenging thing for people to witness within themselves and hard. So you've got to be ready to lose people. You've got to be ready to disappoint people, got to be ready to be hurt by what people do or say based on you going after your truth. And that's a great awareness that you have that success is holding you back or that idea. And what type of disservice do you think you are creating in the world by not stepping into that?

Oh, man. Well, that has shown up in a few ways. So the TED Talk that I have called Getting Comfortable Being Uncomfortable, I said no to it twice. I said, I declined that TED Talk twice. Pat Mitchell, that year, 2017, in May of that year, when they were doing TED Women, I was one of the first people who they asked to speak on the TED stage. And I had. That fall, I had a 10 city speaking tour that I was on with Glennon Doyle, who, you know, of course. And I was like, you know what? I'm doing this 10 city speaking tour. I'm not gonna have time for a TED Talk. You know what? No, no, you're not. You're good. So I declined. In September, Pat comes back around and goes, you know, the Together tour ladies are doing a panel at TED Women. Come speak. And I was like, ah, I've already booked something else. I was emceeing the 3% conference and doing a keynote there. So I was like, I won't be able to do it. So two weeks before TED Women, I was like, oh, the keynote that I'm doing is actually the next day from what I thought, I'll come and cheer on my friends. So I hit a Pat and was like, can I have a day pass? Pat goes, oh, you can come to TED now. You should speak. I was like, that's crazy, because everybody else who's speaking has had four months of prep. They've had their speaking coaches, they've had whole talks, whole time videotaped.

Analyzing it?

Yeah, all of it. And it's two weeks before, and you're like, you should come do a TED Talk. And I was like, no, that sounds crazy. And Pat was like, no, like, it would be amazing to have you. And I say, well, you know what? I can't even do it because I have to leave New Orleans, where Ted was happening, to get to New York that night because I was emceeing and keynoting in the morning. She goes, oh, in that case, we'll just have you be the opening speaker.

Wow.

I was like, I keep on looking for excuses, right? So I called one of my friends, and I was like, hi, friend. Okay, so I've been asked to do this thing, and it's massive, but it's two weeks away, not prepared. Everybody has had a coach. And she said to me, her name is Unique Jones Gibson. She's one of my best friends. She said, everybody's not you, right? She pulled my card. She pulled my card. She was like, everybody's not you. She said, you've been. I think that year I had fitness speaking engagement. She's like, you've been on stages every other day. That's been your coaching. So you know what? Get off the phone. Go write your talk.

Wow.

And I was like, well, damn. Okay, fine. So I write the talk in an Uber on the way to an airport to another speaking engagement, thinking they're gonna get it and be like, you know what? You're right. This is trash. Never mind. I land wherever city. I was going to an email from Pat, who's like, we love it. This is great. Perfect. I was like, what is? I was like, what is happening? Fine. So I was fresh out of excuses. So because of the speaking engagements that I had in between, I actually didn't have much time to practice my TED Talk. So the night before I went to New Orleans, they didn't ask me to come to New Orleans two days early to, like, practice on stage to get comfortable. I couldn't because champagne problems. I was getting an award the day before in Chicago. So I couldn't. I was like, I actually have to get to New Orleans that day and leave New Orleans the same day. Like, I need to leave 10 hours later. So I land in New Orleans the day of, mind you, the day before, I scrapped half the talk and rewrote it. So I memorized it on the plane. I had my iPad. Like, you know what? Maybe I'll have to go on stage with my iPad, because I don't know if I'm just A brand new talk I've created. Never given it anywhere before. So here I am memorizing it, being like, I am not prepared for this. So show up in New Orleans. Basically had to go into makeup and hair, but the whole time holding my iPad, like, okay. I get on stage while holding my iPad to practice, and I'm basically reading the iPad for my practice round. And they're like, this is great. You'll be fine. It's fine. I was like, okay, all right. Nervous. I'm typically not nervous anymore when I speak on that day. All nerves. I was just like, I'm not prepared. I'm gonna mess up on this big stage, this big opportunity. I'm the opening speaker, so I'm gonna set a terrible tone for this talk. So finally, six o' clock comes and Deborah Cox performs and Pat calls my name and I go on stage and it's about 6:07 I get on stage and the first thing that happens is my mic pack falls off my pants.

Oh.

Because you know, why not? And so I get to stand there in front of everybody. Spotlight is literally on me. The mic guy has to come out and fix my mic pack and my earpiece.

Oh, man.

And my friends are in the audience. Like, a couple of my friends were like, you got this. And I was like, you know what? Maybe that was for the greater good because that thing just already happened.

Yeah. Something already bad happens. They're loosen you up and loosen me.

Up a little bit, you know? And I knew I looked good. I had on these little yellow blazer because I was like, you know, if I'm. Even if I do terribly, I'm gonna make sure I look good on this.

You got a good headshot. If it bombs, you know, it bombs.

Okay. This yellow will distract you from my trash words. But I start talking and you would have thought the talk was something that I've given a thousand times. I didn't stumble on my words. I remembered everything I wanted to say. I hit the marks. I wanted to hit. The TED Talk that you all saw was actually the exact TED Talk. There was no editing magic. There wasn't a moment of me being like, I gotta go back and get my script. It was like an out of body experience.

Wow.

And I gave this 10 minute and 54 second talk and I said, thank you. And I ran off the stage because I remember I have a flight that's in an hour and a half, but I run off the stage so fast that the sound like the stage manager stops me and turns me around and he's like, I need you to go back out there, because there's a standing ovation for you.

Wow.

I was like, holy smokes. So I go back on stage, and everybody's on their feet, and I'm just like, whoa. Still didn't forget this flight. Ran back off stage, hand over my mic pack, Pat grabs me and is like, that was amazing. Thank you so much for saying yes. And I was like, much appreciated. There was a car waiting for me with my luggage. I get to airport 30 minutes later, and I'm just blown. And a week later, I get a call that's like, we want to feature this in three weeks on December 1st.

Wow.

On the TED homepage. And here we are, 5 million views later for a talk that I almost didn't do because I didn't think I was ready for it or had the equipment for it or. And I was afraid of bombing. And that talk is another moment in my career that has changed my trajectory.

What has happened in your life and career since that, that talk?

Oh, I get a speaking engagement from that talk at least once a week.

Really?

At least.

Paid speaking gigs.

Yes. And I get people who email me from all over the world being like, I watch your talk anytime I need courage to do something that feels bigger than me. Like, this talk has led to me quitting my job, starting my business. Or this talk led to me asking for my boss for a raise, you know, or writing the book that I was afraid of. And I always let people know that. That talk in itself, where I talk about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. The road to that talk itself was proving the point of the talk. The fact that I was basically saying no to this thing that basically changed my life for the best is really proof of how every single day, our nos and our yeses have real consequences.

Hmm.

Yeah.

What's the three things that, you know, if you do in the next two years, your next three TED Talk moments, what are those three things you've been resisting besides the book?

The three things I've been resisting? Well, one of my fears. I mean, I got married eight, nine months ago. So that was a fear. That's a commitment. Jesus. That's right. I mean, that is, like, huge. That is saying, I actually go with you forever. That's huge. So that was a big thing that I did that was like, I'm facing a fear.

How's it feel?

It feels good. It is like, stop fighting against the thing that you're feeling compelled to do. Right. Don't be so afraid of what how it could fail. What if it goes really well? What if it is the exact thing that pushes you to the joy that you need, that pushes you to being better than you are? Because honestly, marriage is a constant holding a mirror to your face because now somebody else is this close. Constantly.

All the time.

Yeah, all the time. And they are now also the person who sees you at your worst. So, yeah, it is constantly facing yourself.

Hmm. Okay, so what are the, what are the things that you need to do? As you know, that would be big steps that if you embrace them, just like the Academy Awards unlocked this, Just like TED Talk unlocks this. Just like the marriage unlocks the better version of yourself.

I think we, we need to learn. A lot of us are type A control freaks. I am a definitely fall in that category. Perfectionists who don't like not being good at everything. And it is a moment to be like, one, you're not going to be good at everything. That's fine. Two, find constant lessons in your fails because there's always something to learn when you fall on your face or feel like you are in a deeply uncomfortable position. And to your point of the judgment detox that Gabby talks about, what judgments do you make about yourself when you don't show up in the way that you wanted to, or you show that you're not always put together? You know, what is a judgment that you're making that is stopping you from moving forward? Like, are you attaching shame to some of it? Are you thinking you're somehow not good enough because of this thing? So working all of that through and I think the personal, the professional becomes really personal very quickly.

Yeah. And when you're in the middle of a psychological or emotional fight with yourself about, you know, fear of doing something or needing to be delaying something because it's not perfect or whatever it may be, how do you approach self care for yourself?

Ooh, self care. I mean, again, I go to see my therapist and sometimes I'll skip weeks and I'm like, ah, man, I should definitely go see her. Because one thing that they do in therapy is ask you questions that make you actually, when you answer it, you realize how ridiculous you're being.

It's very irrational or emotional based as opposed to rational based, right?

Yeah, yeah. So it kind of leads you back to the logic of it all. Other self care moves, you know, I look, I like to play the Sims because it's such a thoughtless game. You're building another world that you are not in. Some people will put themselves. I never Create a sim that looks like myself because I think that's weird. So I play Words with Friends because why not? And then what else? When outside opens back up, I will be getting massages, like two hours, right?

Man, I need a massage right now.

I could so bad, Right? You feel your shoulders doing this and you're like, oh. So I'm looking forward to the first time I can go back to a spa without thinking like, okay, I'm indoors. There's no air. So spot spas are my thing. In vacations with my friends, that's where I like to spend money.

Yeah.

Experiences.

Yeah, me too.

I'm the person who's like, yes, I will pay for the first class. Yes, get me a villa. Like, I will save all year if I need to so I can vacation properly.

Yeah.

Off. I want to, like, be pampered. I want all of that. Give me all of that.

Sure. Now you're. You're born in Nigeria and you. You lived there till you were about nine, I think, right?

Yeah.

But then you moved to Chicago.

Yep.

So I'm curious, what's your relationship with America, your identity and everything that's happening right now with, you know, obviously racist racism and social injustice in the world, but being more of a focus on.

In America right now, identity wise, I consider myself a black woman who is Nigerian. I am also American. I am also a Chicagoan. For me, right now, we're. It just feels. You almost feel like the world is just in a giant vacuum. Everything just feels really kind of tough. And it actually feels physically uncomfortable because a lot of things are being unearthed. What's been happening with all the civil unrest is after centuries of black people not feeling seen in a country where black and brown bodies built it. So right now, what we're seeing are people being tired. And I support the people who are speaking up loudly, who are putting their bodies on the line, their lives on the line. It's been rough to watch all of this unfold because it's like you feel the pain of everybody right now. You're feeling everybody understanding either, you know what? I don't feel safe because I'm black in a country where we can be killed on camera, or have I contributed to any of this in any way? People, really, this is an awakening happening. It's like an awakening. It's a reckoning. It's people for the first time probably in a long time or maybe ever actively saying, okay, I'm not black. I don't think I'm racist, but have I contributed to the system that has found us here. And I think everybody right now, the best case scenario is for all of us to take this moment seriously and understand that it's not enough for us not to be the people who are doing harm in any system. When we talk about privilege, when we talk about power, people think about privilege being like, pointing at you and being like, it's your fault. That's not really the point of privilege. Privilege is to be like, you have certain things that work in your favor that you didn't earn. Those things mean somebody else suffers for the fact that they don't have that thing. So what that means is, although you might not be perpetrating harm, you are profiting and benefiting from the larger system. I think right now, everybody needs to challenge themselves to figure out, what are you doing to be anti. Whatever it is, you know, anti transphobic, anti homophobic, anti racist, and do that thing. And I know that oftentimes it gets overwhelming because people are like, I can't do everything. I can't solve everything. It's not your job to solve everything. It's not your job to do everything. Find the thing that you want to do, do that thing really well. So if all of us decide to find our thing, do that thing really well, the collective action will form like this, like, supernova, to, like, blast whatever's happening. That's not okay. And I always tell people, like, I'm clear that my thing, one of my things is I can use my voice. It doesn't mean I might not always have time to go protest. I might not. You might not feel like you have enough money to donate. And it makes a big difference. What we all have is our voices in our really. It can be small spaces, it can be giant spaces. It can be big platforms or small platforms. We have to start speaking truth, really speaking truths that allows people to be able to see what's happening. And really not even convicts, but compels them to do. To do something, to move. So people are always like, well, you know, it's easy for you, your professional troublemaker. I'm like, yeah, but actually kind of templated how I tell the truth. I created a truth telling guide called Be the Domino that people can download for free@bethedomino.com okay? It is a guide to truth telling because I want people to know exactly how even truth telling can be templated. The thing that I do whenever I'm like, huh? I have to tell. I have to say something that's gonna feel tough that I'm not Comfortable with. One of the things I first do is I check in with myself. Three questions. Do I mean it? Can I defend it? Am I saying it thoughtfully? If the answer is yes to all three things, I'm like, I'm gonna say it and deal with whatever comes because I can't. I can't control how people receive it. I'm not saying this will keep me from getting in the fire, but I'm saying if I at least do this, I'm not being impulsive. I'm not saying something that is thoughtless. I'm not keeping it real and it goes wrong. If I at least run myself in this comment or this thing that I want to do or say through my checklist, it gives me a bit more confidence to do and say it. It lets me know this is what you're supposed to do.

Is there anything you've said or done that actually was really hurtful and harmful to people and you regret over the years?

I'm sure. Yeah. But I think each time I refine my truth telling and also each time I understand that I also have to remove myself from what could happen if I use my voice, because I could still do the checklist and fail. Right. I can still offend somebody, even with my thoughtfulness. So I can't tie my actions to a guarantee of, oh, this is gonna go well. Right. Because otherwise we'll never say anything. Because you can't guarantee everybody's gonna receive what you're gonna say in the way you intended. You can't guarantee impact. So people have to be okay with the fact that you might ruffle feathers. But does the means justify the end? What if you don't? What if you actually say that thing? That is tough. Somebody needs to hear it. And it does make change.

Yeah.

So focus on that part as opposed to the worst case scenario.

Yeah, yeah. And you were. You were part of the Share the Mic, I guess. Was it the campaign. Would you call it a share the mic campaign experience? Yeah, that was everywhere online for I guess, a week, couple weeks.

Yeah.

And was that something that you came up with was how did that come about and what was the. The results that came from it and what was the backlash, if any, that came from it?

So Share the Mic now was a campaign that I did with Boz Must, John Glennon Doyle and Stacey Bend it. It all came together because it was like everybody got the same idea at the same time. I was talking to Bose and was like, what can we do with the influence that we have with our friends who are white who trust and believe in us, who are currently asking us, what can we do right now? And Bose was like, funny enough, Glennon had hit me up and said she's going to give up her platform to any black woman who wants to speak from her platform. Glennon texts me and goes, lovey, I was thinking about this thing. I would totally give you my passwords today if you went to speak through it. So then I called Bose and was like, maybe we should just actually do this and get white women who are prominent, who have large platforms to agree to give up their platforms to black women. So we called Glennon. Glennon's like, yes, let's do this. So Basically, in a 10 minute conversation, we came up with this campaign. And Glennon goes, I'm gonna go ask these 20 white women right now. We go, let's go get our black women together. And we did this campaign in eight days. And over that eight days got 54 white women who were prominent to agree to hand over their passwords because we wanted to say, this is not just, I'm just gonna hold or sending them.

A video and they post it or something.

We were gonna be taking over their account completely.

Wow.

So we got 54 white women, we got 54 black women. We actually did the matching because we were like, also trust us to give you, like, to match you with somebody who we think should speak from your platform.

So you and Bose were like, okay, we're gon. Or did the women say, this is who I want to take over there? No.

Nobody could request who they wanted.

So you guys decided.

Like, we decided. They gave us that trust of like, okay, so over the one Saturday, we sat there and was like, okay, let's match this person with this person.

It's like a little puzzle.

Like, it was totally Tetris. It was really cool. And wow, June 10th is when we executed it. And we had Ellen, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Ashley Judd, Megan Rapinoe, like the list of white women, Julia Roberts. And then we had women who were amazing, like Tarana Burke, Yabba Blay. It was just this incredible action of trust, of sisterhood, of what it looks like to step aside and do something of note in a time when you didn't know what to do. And ever since, it's been nuts. We've had 17 billion impressions on that campaign.

Wow. I mean, how did this technically, logistically work? Were you, like, all the women were. You guys just switched each other's cell phone and say, okay, give me your password.

So we went in, we had A whole team. It was like all hands on deck, war bunker. So once we finished all the matching, all the women got emails connecting them with their matches, individual emails. So we sent individual emails.

Like pen pal matching. Yeah, here's who they are.

Here's your Instagram. We want you guys to connect. They connected each person. They all, like partners, exchange cell phone numbers. So the morning of the 10th, everybody, at the same time, text their partners their passwords. We logged into their accounts, and, oh, yeah, we had everybody. The action was that whoever's platform were taking over had to do an intro video introducing their partner. This is who they are. This is why they're amazing. I'm giving up my account for the day. I need y' all to listen. And once they logged out, we logged in and put our intro post of, hey, I had Sophia Bush's account. Hey, everybody, this is Lovey Ajayi Jones. I'm a writer. Blah, blah, Join me for the day. And we just got to tell our stories, talk about our work, talk about whatever issue was on our minds. And the last piece of the action was everybody had to drop the mic. So at a certain time, everybody posted a graphic on their person's timeline with some type of call to action that they wanted their audience to take. But we all had different ones. Mine was, everybody, tell the truth. Go Download. Go to BeTheDownload.com and in your space, tell the truth. And 4700 people downloaded it. That day was like, got it. Duly noted. So share the mic now. For us was an exercise in people using their power, loaning their power, because that's what the prominent white women did, making room for black women's voices to be heard. And also, what does trust look like? Blind trust. The whole exercise was blind trust. People trust in us to be like, hey, we're doing this thing. We don't know how it's gonna go, but just trust us. Because even though we're building the canoe as we're rowing it, join us for this journey. And they said yes. Nobody questioned us in terms of saying, like, okay, what are people gonna say on my platform? Nobody was like, well, who are these white women that you guys are getting? Everybody just openly said yes. And we got on our zoom call with everybody, and people are seeing the faces pop up. And Brene Brown, Diane von Furstenberg, and Monique Melton, Rachel Cargill. Everybody was just like, okay, you told me this was a thing. You ain't tell me it was this.

Wow. So you guys all did, like, one call or as many People that could get on. We did three zoom calls with everybody before the moment.

Yeah.

Kind of say, this is what we're doing. This is our intention. This is what we'd like to create.

Yes. And everybody being like, okay, you know, people showing up really humble. Like, I'm thinking it was gonna be assistants on the call. No, it was Debra Messin. It was. You know, it was just beautiful to see what could happen with that type of real openness and openheartedness. Me and Boaz were just blown away.

Wow. Who was facilitating these kind of zoom calls? Was it you and Bose? Was it?

Yeah, Me, Bose Glennon. Yeah.

That's amazing.

He was a family.

That's beautiful. What's. I mean, there was. How many women involved?

50, 54 pairs. So 108 for the first round.

108. What? Was there any backlash? And was there any white women who declined when reached out to you? Don't say names.

I won't say names, but backlash. People at first were like, wow, this must be a press push, right? Or, wow, this is some type of, like, elitist clubhouse. But it wasn't, because we picked black women who were amazing, whose platforms were nowhere near as elevated as these white women. You know, these weren't black women who. Everybody had 400,000 accounts. There were people with 5,000 followers.

Wow.

And we did that because we were like, this is not about popularity. It's really about exchanging power. Like, what does it look like for us to actually use our privilege? And that's what the white women were doing in that moment. And then what does it look like to elevate the voices of those who are typically not elevated? And that's where the black women were. People who had amazing stories to tell, who were typically not in front of 4 million people, 10 million people, 93 million people. Right. Because the followers. The total number of followers from the white women were 300 million.

Wow.

The total number of followers from the black women was 6 million. Right. So that was a true exchange of power. And also, we centered black women in the whole thing. This was not about the white women. You would not. None of the action was centered around what. What white women were doing. We made sure black women came first in our graphics. Black women came first in press. We told people we need black women's names to be first. If any pairs did press, Black women were the ones who we wanted to make sure spoke. None of the white women were at. Were allowed to do press by themselves. If it is by yourself, it's not for this action. It was either with your partner or you are quiet.

Wow.

So we use all that intention and, you know, people always misconstrue things. But we were like, we just have to do it as pure as we know how.

Sure, do your best.

Yeah, we do our best. That's all we can do.

What's your thoughts on. Because there was a few, at least that I saw, there was a few very prominent white female influencers who have been kind of getting a lot of backlash and attention for certain actions they've taken over the last few weeks. For knots speaking up enough or for doing whatever things. I don't want to, you know, insinuate who these people are. But what's your thoughts on, you know, the white female influencers on social media who are kind of getting a lot of this backlash attention, whether it's just unjust. What are your thoughts on kind of this shaming of people online, canceling women, whether they, you know, did good or wrong?

I think it's a tough time. Everybody's. Everybody's on the edge, and everybody is being called to the carpet right now to show growth, not just say they've grown. So people are looking for actions that show that, okay, if you've done something that was a mistake in the past, are you different now? It's tough. Everybody again, people with platforms right now, man, listen, there's currently no room for error.

I tell you what, I bet, you know, I've been. I feel like we've been very diverse in our conversations since day one on my platform seven years ago. My stages have always been diverse and ethnicities to men and women, to religious backgrounds, everything. I've been very intentional from day one. And I've been, I think, diving in more on these topics over the last month and being very true to my stance and losing tens of thousands of followers from people that are like, I can't believe be supporting this and blah, blah, blah, whatever it may be. And it's like, you gotta be willing to let people go and kind of purge, you know, my goal is to bring people into the conversation, and not everyone's gonna agree with everyone. And that's why I go on controversial shows to try to speak my truth to those audiences and to the choir, let's say, all the time as well. But you've got to be willing to surrender the ups and downs of followers and not say things or. Or keep yourself quiet in the fear of losing people.

Yeah, I think it's going to be. It's an important time of discernment, too. Who we are aligned with is gonna get really important. You know, the places that we are sharing our mic is gonna be important, you know, so yeah, people just gonna have to be okay with the fact that there is gonna be a purge. I'm always like, I know I sometimes will look at my stats and I'll see that I've gained 2,000 followers and lost 500. Right, right. In that case, look, was I true to myself? We can't actually base our content and our work on the followers, on who's staying, who's not. Unless the people who are leaving are the people we don't want to leave. The people who we want to talk to if they're the ones leaving. Maybe we should check ourselves, right? If our audience who has rode with us for years is like, whoa, you just did this thing that was not okay to the point where I am abandoning you. It is a time for you to stop and be like, okay, I might have done something wrong. But if it's like trolls, right, who are saying something, that's why it matters, the who of it all. That's why if I get crazy comments from people who have zero followers and just started their account, that's a troll. Maybe don't internalize that. But if it's somebody who in the past has been a massive fan of your work or, or has followed your work closely and has this critique for you, it might be worth giving some type of space to be like, is there validity here? So we can't listen to everybody, but we need to know who we should listen to.

What do you think? I love that you guys did this campaign and this experience. Share the mic now between white women and black women. What do you think white men and black men can be doing the same thing?

You know, we actually encouraging people to do share the mic now in their own spaces. But when people do it, we need them to have the right intention, the centering of the people who don't have power. It can be done between business leaders and upcoming entrepreneurs. It can be done between able bodied people and people who are differently abled. It can be done with, you know, black men taking over white men's account. Absolutely. It can look in all these different forms and we actually are like, yes, do that thing. Because the power in having, in moving to the side is you saying, you know what, my role right now is not necessarily to take up even more space. Let me give space to the person who typically wouldn't have the space. So I think that's important. That is really important.

I love that you did a post on Instagram recently. I want to share what you wrote. A lot of times, certain things come easy to us, Whether it's skill, opportunities, relationships. Because they came easy, we didn't have to toil or struggle for them. We distrust it. We think there's got to be a catch. We look at it with foreboding joy. That is a trauma response. That thing that came without strife, it is supposed to be yours. It is a gift to accept, not taken for granted, but also not to be considered consistently. Question. You deserve good things without condition. How often do you experience this in your own life where you discount your success or you wait for the other shoe to drop and you're not fully celebrating yourself?

Probably more often than I want. Like, I used the whole me being a writer part of the reason why I was like, nah, I'm not a writer. I'm not the writer who's sitting here, like, will the words just come and toiling for it? So I thought it was too easy. I was like, nah, real writers are sitting there, like, in a cabin trying to pull the words out.

And I just ripping up papers at draft after draft.

I was like, that's what real writers are doing. They struggle through the words. They got writer's block. They, like, meanwhile, words just pour out my fingers. Like, I think even writing this second book, there was one day where I wrote 7,000 words in three hours. So I always. I was like, ah, it's too easy. It must not be good. No, no, no. That's the gift. That is actually the gift. We're so used to the constant struggling and being told that, like, you have to hustle and you have to, like, work yourself to the bone to get anything that we now look at anything that is easy as, like, I don't trust it. The shoe's gonna fall. So I try to now recognize, and I'm doing it. You know, when I try to. When I'm like, God, this campaign is going on. It went too easy. Like, something's going to happen. Nothing bad happened.

It all worked smooth. It was all great.

And I was like, what's the catch?

How is.

How are these women saying yes? No, they go, they're not going to give away up their passwords. They're not going to do it. Wednesday is going to come. They're not going to do it. So we're constantly working through, like, walking through life looking for the trap. So it stops us from celebrating fully. So I am literally every day trying to learn that it's okay, easy is fine. Some things are going to be easy, and that's fine.

Yeah. Amen to that. Well, I want to ask you a final couple questions. This has been really powerful, and I appreciate you opening up. This is a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three Truths. So I'd like you to imagine that you've overcome your fear of success. Finally it's happened, and you have gone off and accomplished every dream imaginable. You've created campaigns, you've changed the world. You've had this beautiful marriage. You've done all the things you want to do, and for whatever reason, it's your last day on earth, many years from now. And you've got to take all of your work with you, all of your written words, your audio, video, books, anything you do in the future, it's got to go with you to the next place. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. The three biggest lessons you would share with the world, and this is all we would have to remember you by, are these three lessons. What would be your three truths?

The first, truth is joy is always necessary. Second, truth is. The truth is always necessary. Third, truth is. Love is always necessary. I feel like those are the three things that I really live my life through, and I hadn't ever thought about it, but yes. Joy, truth, and love. My first name is Ifeolua, which is Yoruba, and it means God's love. So that's where the lovey came in. So all of that is what I would leave behind.

Mmm. It's beautiful. Where can we connect with you and how can we support you?

Yes. Yes. There's a thousand ways to connect with me. I am Ovie on all my social platforms. L V V I E on the ground. The Facebooks, you know, the Twitters, all of that. I have a podcast called Rants and Randomness, where I have conversations with people who I think are really fascinating and interesting. And I have an app where the rest of the world is a dumpster fire often. And I feel like it's necessary to have a safe space. So I have an app called Love Nation. L U V V Nation. It's in the App Store, Google Play, and it is a place where you can have elevated conversations with thoughtful people without any of the hate that happens elsewhere. So that's a big thing that I sometimes will go in. If it's a day where I'm like, I'm not gonna do social today, I'm usually in Love Nation. So find me Everywhere. And, yeah, download The Truth Guide, bethedomino.com Go get it. And really double down on being the challenger. The thoughtful Challenger. Yeah.

Okay. BethesdaMino.com is a free download over there as well.

Yeah, free download. Go nuts. Let's all do good things in this world and be better.

Okay, cool. We'll make sure to link all this stuff up as well. Lovey, before I ask you the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for being the truth, joy, and love. And in times when people are unwilling to be those things, in times when people do not share, do not step up. You're willing to risk it all by being the troublemaker that you are. So I truly acknowledge you for your gift. And I acknowledge you for your constant growth in overcoming the fear of success, because you doing that campaign was a big eye opener for the world. And without you overcoming that fear of success, you probably would have never done that. So I acknowledge you for constantly doing that, and I urge you to continue that because we need your voice. So I appreciate you.

No, thank you so much for having me, Louis. This is awesome. I love School of Greatness. I think the conversations are always incredible, and that means you created a space that people can come and share the best part of the world. I forgot to even tell people. Also, get my book.

Guys, I'm judging you.

The do Better manual.

I like that. Okay, final question, Lovey, what's your definition of greatness?

Ooh, greatness. I would define greatness as your name being upstanding at the end of it all. Yeah. I want my name beyond everything that I'm doing. That's platform beyond. I want, when I am no longer here, for my name to stand up. Yeah. So that would mean I was great.

That's a beautiful answer. I really like that one. It's kind of like, you know that how many people showed up to your funeral type of thing. It's like the world respected your name. I like that.

Yeah.

Love it. You're a gift. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for watching this video. And if you're looking for more greatness in your life, then check out this next video right here.

I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in, because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are.