The SECRETS Of Irresistible People (This Works Like MAGIC!) w/ John Maxwell

So I've studied success and success is kind of about me, but significance is about others. And here's the difference, I think. I think successful people that live for themselves get unhappy very quickly. But Louis, I've never met an unhappy person that lived a life of significance. The moment that you begin to try to add value to people and you're in the game because you want to be a positive factor in people's lives and you really are there to help them, I think that's where deep satisfaction comes from?

I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah.

Please welcome Lewis Howes.

Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. I am very excited about our guest. We have the world's leading leadership coach, John Maxwell, in the house. Good to see you, sir.

Great to be with you, Lewis. I'm very excited about our time together.

And very excited.

Looking forward to this a lot.

Very excited. obviously, I've connected with you before virtually on a call before in the past, but we've never met in person, but I know it's gonna happen soon. But we were just talking about the ties we have, both from Central Ohio, both big Ohio State football fans. Your wife grew up in the same essentially neighborhood that I grew up in, in Delaware, Ohio. And, you've been, of massive service and impact for the world. for really the last 40, 50 years. And all of your books, all the work, all the teachings, the trainings you've done, I think 34, 35 million copies sold. It's really inspiring. And I want to talk about leadership and communication. But the first thing I want to dive into today is actually about marriage and relationships and the biggest lesson you learned about leadership from mistakes you've made in marriage. I'm curious if you'd be willing to talk about that first.

Oh yeah, I can talk about that. You know, Margaret and I have been married for 54 years, okay? So let's start there.

54.

54, yeah. And my parents were married for 60, for 65. And, you know, then, no, no, I'm wrong. They were married for 68 years. And so, Dad lived up to, my father worked full time through his 95th year and passed away at 98. But when you think of marriage, there are several leadership lessons I've learned from it, but one of them is the fact that you both have to give 100%. It's not 50-50. You hear people talk about, well let's do 50-50. They're talking about equality, I know in a relationship, but I think that marriage is too hard to be 50-50. It's got to be 100-100. Yeah, it's, you know, everything worthwhile, everything worthwhile is uphill. It's all uphill, everything worthwhile. And, you know, if you have a great dream, it's uphill. If you have a great marriage, it's uphill. And you can't go uphill 50%. You've got to be 100% And so there's a commitment that you make to each other. And it has nothing to do with adversity, difficulty. I mean, every marriage has hard days, deserts, but people that get divorced don't get divorced because they had greater problems than people that didn't get divorced. It's just a different mindset. There's a different attitude. toward it, I think that makes a huge difference. I think it's not only 100 and 100, but I think that respect is essential in a marriage. I learned a long time ago that when you lose respect for somebody, you lose energy and effort in the cause. And so I think it's all about giving the other person space to develop their own giftedness. You know, if you've been to every wedding ceremony where they take and blow out two, you know, they light the middle candle and blow out the two. And I always want to say, no, no, no, don't blow out those candles. You don't lose your individuality when you get married. Good Lord. You want to keep your own candle lit. You have gifts that pertain to you and you want to maximize those gifts. I think there's a respect and appreciation for allowing that person space to develop themselves and not try to make them conform to, here's what I am and here's what I need and here's what I want. You know, the reason that dating works so well is you always think about the other person first. That's why it works. I mean, think about it. Hey, you're going out on a date, what can I get her some flowers, take her to a good restaurant, make sure I seat her, you know what I'm saying? And it's all about her, it's all about her. And then what happens when people get Louis, when they get married, It's all set, it's all about me, you know, when you go to take care of my needs. And that's why dating flourishes and marriage sometimes flounders. It's, you know, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't work that way. You just have to really always be focused on it's all about the other person adding value to them. Right. Well, one quick story, it's a family story more than that is, I've written one book out of my, I think I've written, I don't know, 88, 89, something like that. But anyway, I've written one book on parenting. And so I decided to write a book called Breakthrough Parenting. And I wrote it and Margaret gave me a lot of input. But anyway, what's hysterical is talk about timing and stupidity. I wrote the book when both of my children were teenagers. Now, what's wrong with this picture? What's wrong? You're writing a book on breakthrough parenting and your kids are going through those teenage years where they're doing their own thing. And I'd call the publisher and I'd say, wow, you know, this is not working. I wanted to get out of doing the book. I'd already signed the contract and I said, can I change the title to like break down parenting or, you know, hey, how about break up parenting? Can we do, you know, because we're, you know, we may get divorced through this whole process.

Wow.

You know, we're having everything but a breakthrough. But, you know, and of course today our children are great. We have great, we have wonderful grandchildren. But there's a price. It's an effort. It's an energy. It isn't going to come to you. It isn't going to always be good and work out for you. You have to just be committed to each other and for the long haul and climb the hill. You don't coast to greatness. No one ever drifted to a desired location. You know what I'm saying? You don't coast to that. You have to climb to it.

And what about 50 plus years in marriage? Are you still climbing the mountain of that? Are you able to not have things more automated and systematic, but is it a constant daily focus and attention? I don't like to call it hard work, but more intention, attention and focus on the relationship?

Well, you still have to pay close attention to the relationship, but at this stage, we know each other very well. very well. And there's something beautiful about knowing the idiosyncrasies. And, you know, there's, I have just things that, you know, that I'm not good at or I don't do well. And, you know, there comes to be a time where you just kind of, it's okay, you know, in the beginning, everything is important. In the end, only the important things are important. That stuff gets weeded out in the process. And so it, to say it's, Easier, I would say it's easier in the fact that you now have gone through the battles and you pretty well have succeeded in the battles. So you pretty well know what victory looks like and you kind of stay on that side of victory and winning. And so it does get, to say automatic is not the right word, but it becomes more natural. Maybe is there a better way?

Right, right, organic, natural. Yeah, I love that. I'm curious, you are, you know, you're the world's greatest leadership trainer, expert coach, you know, authority. And I'm curious, what has your wife taught you about leadership that you didn't know about beforehand?

Well, she taught me that no matter if you're the world's greatest leadership expert, that doesn't mean your wife wants to follow all the time. Hey, let me tell you, I move masses. It's, hey, sometimes I look at my family and say, nobody's moving here. You know what I'm saying? I tell my, I say, people pay me, Louis, people pay me big bucks to go and give them strategy and advice. And, you know, and I start doing that with my own kids or, you know, my family, they kind of look at me and say, really, I mean, do we have to, we have to listen to this? And so there's a, there's a, there's a level setting in a relationship that should be really, you know, My definition of success, this will work. When I was in my middle 30s, everything was going pretty good for me. Books started really selling. I was pretty much in demand as a speaker anyway. And then I saw a lot of people who are successful not doing well, kind of just kind of going off the rails and you'd say, good luck, what happened to them? So I spent some time in my middle 30s and I said, I have to get my own personal definition of success. I can't handle, I can't put somebody else's coat on. I gotta handle my own. And so I came to the conclusion, Louis, that for me, that success can be defined in the fact that those who know me the best love and respect me the most. And that really works. Just work.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

In fact, put, I mean, think about it. If people who don't know you well like you better than people who know you well, that's a major statement about something about gone wrong with the character of a person, you know, but when, when, but when the people who know you best and, you know, love and respect you the most, I mean, they know me, they know my, you know, they know all the dumb stuff I've done and all my failures and all my faults and, you know, my shortcomings, my humanist, several years ago, I accidentally took a gun to an airport. I mean, literally. And it was, it not only would I take the gun through the air, I fly private most of the time, but I had gotten a gun from a friend. I'm not even, I'm not even a gun person really, but they said that they thought my wife ought to have a gun since I was gone a lot. And so they had, and my pilots, my two pilots loved it, and they, one of them was a gun guy and he loaded it, and I stuck it in my briefcase and forgot about it. went commercially, and it was a loaded gun that went through the airport and they saw it, of course. It's a long story. I did a whole teaching off of, you know, basically stupid hurts. But anyway, so I took, tried to, I didn't do it intentionally, but, you know, took a gun to the airport. My kids loved it, 'cause they said, Dad has lowered the bar of stupid so low now that no matter what we do, It, you know, so the family household word has been, when somebody does something stupid, they say, well, at least you didn't take a gun to an airport.

Wow, that's amazing.

But that's so fun, you know, when you're with the people that know you well and they love you and you can have fun together and, you know, then you've done well.

That's beautiful. Now, I'm curious, John, you've been around a lot of irresistible people, a lot of magnetic people. I would say you're one of those individuals. and you've been around a lot of leaders who are extremely successful financially. They've generated and amassed a lot of opportunities, whether it be monetarily or non-monetarily. And you've also been around people who have wealth and are unhappy internally or lack peace. And you've also been around people who have lots of wealth and are at peace with themselves and have harmonious relationships. I'm curious, what would you say are the character traits or the main habits of magnetic, irresistible people who also have inner peace?

Great question. I think I have the answer to that, because I've thought a lot about it. First of all, I know, and you know this too, you're in this world, you know a lot of highly successful people. I know a lot of unhappy successful people. I mean, and you look at what they have and you sit there and say, why are they unhappy? I mean, they literally have anything that they truly want in life, but they're not very happy. So I've studied success and success is kind of about me. You know, it's kind of like what I've done, you know, so you, you know, sold 35 million books, 88 books written, you know, spoken in a hundred countries, spoken 13,000 times. Okay, it's about me. but significance is about others. And here's the difference, I think. I think successful people that live for themselves get unhappy very quickly. I think that they find out that they're not enough, that they were created to help others and add value to other people. So I've met a lot of unhappy, successful people thinking of success, it's all about me. Significance is all about others. So it's a focus. I've met a lot of unhappy, successful people, but Louis, I've never met an unhappy person that lived a life of significance. I have never met one. Yeah, I'm sure there's somebody out there that is, but the moment that you began to try to add value to people and you're in the game because you want to be a positive factor in people's lives and you really are there to help them. I think that's where real fulfillment, I think that's where deep satisfaction comes from. And so I live in a significant life. I've had some success but Success doesn't really interest me that very much. Significance interests me a lot. So everything I do basically at this stage of my life, I'm 76. People say, well, you're still writing, you're still traveling, you're still, you know, working and, you know, I've, you know, seven companies and, and, and, yeah, yeah, I am. And, well, when are you going to retire? Well, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to retire. I don't, I don't have a desire to retire because Why would you retire when you're helping people and making a difference? I mean, I live on two golf courses, but there has to be something bigger, Louis, than what is my tee time today? Come on, is that as good as it? I mean, is that as good as it's going to get? I don't, you know, I think that, I think you can get unhappy very quickly when all you're doing is trying to take care of yourself and you're not really. helping and serving people. So to me, that is the difference of, you know, when you see, when I see successful people that are live a life of significant, I find them very fulfilled. But I find people, I mean, if you're just living for yourself, how much is enough? I mean, how many cars do you have to have? How many homes? How many meals can you eat? I mean, how many cars can you drive? I mean, after a while, it just, you just realize, that if you live for yourself, it's never enough. And if you live for others, it's more than enough.

Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I love it. I'm all about service. I just think the more in service we can be and the more we make our mission about serving and helping others.

Yes.

And that can be your family, your communities, the career you're in to start. And then as you have more, how can you contribute more? I think that's what brings me a lot of fulfillment and joy. and I'm curious about, you know, those that you've really taught and trained and you coach some of the greatest leaders in the world, business, sports, you know, all these different things. What are the habits that make them irresistible and able to manifest and create more in their life? Obviously, the quality and the intention of service and helping others and giving is a big intention that they have that brings them joy. But what would you say are those qualities that just make them so that people want to follow them, that people want to give them opportunities, that people like things fall in their lap? What makes them so irresistible?

I think having a joy about life and about people. I was having a conversation one time with a very successful person, very funny person, comedian, and he said, you know, it's hard to be funny if you don't have fun. He says, funny comes out of fun. And that made perfect sense to me. And when he said that, I hadn't thought about it until he told me, but I thought, that's exactly right. If you have fun in life and you have joy in life, then you begin to be irresistible. Are you a lifter? Or are you a leaner? You know, I mean, it's... L.M. Wilcox wrote that poem. What was it said? I haven't said this for a long time, I see. There are two kinds of people on earth today, just two kinds of people. And the more I say, not the good and the bad, for it's well understood, the good are half bad, the bad are half good. No, there's two kinds of people in life, I mean, is the people who lift and the people who lean. And honestly, if you are a plus in people's lives, they want to be around you. How do you teach relationships? I'm either a plus in people's lives or I'm a minus in people's lives. I'm either adding joy to them and intentionally being kind and they, or else I'm a minus. you know, some people are just, they get up and they say, who's going to make my day today? You know, it, Robert Louis Stevens said, I love this quote. He said, I consider the success of my day based on the seeds I sow, not the harvest I reap. And, and what, what he understood was, if you're just constantly sowing seeds, the harvest is automatic. My gosh, I mean, yeah, I'm reaping a huge Harvest today. I'm looking at it. In fact, it's embarrassing to me. And I look at it, I think, how did this all happen? Well, I know how it happened. I've sown seeds all my life. And so, you know, if I decide to be a plus for you, you're going to want me to be around you. And if I decide that I'm going to be a minus and I'm going to, you know, expect you every day to quote, make my day, I'm going to drag on you. And there's nothing contagious about a selfish person. I mean, there really isn't. But there's, something very contagious about a happy, joyful, giving individual who really loves to add value to others. So I mean, I think, and I think, by the way, I think people, Dan Rylan, who was on my staff one time, gave me a great definition of charisma. He said, it's not a personality, people with charisma, their interest is in other people and people that lack charisma, their interest is in themselves. And I think that's very true. I think we sometimes assign things to personality instead of intentionality. And I think any person that wants to, they can immediately make a change there. They can say, look, I'm going to change my behavior here. I'm going to serve and add value to people. and quit being such a dragon in people's lives. But I think people that are minus Lewis, I don't think they, most of them know it. I don't think they realize it. I certainly don't think that they're intentional. They can't be intentional. Surely, surely people don't get up and just say, I wanna screw somebody's day up.

I mean, you know, I wanna-- It's more unconscious, yeah.

Yeah, I think, but I think if you are a plus in people's lives, I think it's very conscious because I don't think it's natural. I think it's natural for us to be selfish. So if I'm going to sow seed and give and serve, I think I go against what's natural. And so therefore, successful people develop, they develop habits that may not be natural, but are greatly beneficial.

It'S interesting. I'll share a quick, I'll share a quick story with you to add to this, because when I, you know, being in Central Ohio, I would live in Columbus, Ohio. After I was playing Arena Football, I went to pursue the NFL. I played Arena Ball, got injured, broke my wrist, and then I was sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half, thinking, what am I going to do with my life? I have no skills. I didn't graduate college. I barely passed to stay in college. It was all just to go try to live this dream of being a professional athlete. That's it. Just focus on sports and girls. That was pretty much it.

There you go.

And, and when I got injured, I realized, oh, I can't go play ball anymore. What am I gonna do now? I'm 24. I have no, in my mind, I'm thinking I have no skills for a career. It was 2007, 2008, that time frame when the economy crashed and, you know, people with Masters weren't getting jobs and it was just challenging. So I was like, how am I gonna do something with my life? I ended up reaching out to as many people on LinkedIn in Columbus that were executive CEOs that I could to learn about their stories. I never asked for advice. I never said, Can you give me a job? Can you help me? I just said, I want to learn how you became successful. It's inspiring what you've created. I started hosting these networking events and going to events as well in Columbus and then around the country. And as I would go to these events, all I would do is ask people questions about their success, about their challenges they overcame. And I would never say anything about myself. And people at the end of the conversation would always be like, man, you're like the most interesting person here. Thank you so much for asking me these questions. And I didn't say anything about me. I just asked. And sometimes asking questions can be the greatest gift you give someone than trying to be this personality and interesting and say stuff about you. So I went into it not knowing what to do, not thinking I had value, but just opening someone's heart and mind to their life story is such a gift as well.

Oh, that's beautiful. It's a what I love about your story is the fact that you weren't even intentional. You were just trying to learn yourself about success, but because you were talking about them and asking questions about them, that goes back to that charisma definition, that it was all about them and all of a sudden you realize this was making you the most popular guy at the party.

And I'd always ask them, what's your biggest challenge right now? And they say, well, I'm looking for someone to help me with a website designer. I'm looking for an engineer. I'm looking for a salesperson. And since I'd been connecting with so many different types of people, I was like, oh, I know the right person for you. And I would call them and I put them on the phone with them right there. I was like, here, just you guys connect and hopefully it helps both of you. And I became a connector of opportunities because I was like, I don't have the skill. I can't do this for you, but I know someone that could. Of course. And that became a valuable you know, asset and gift that I could give people. But I didn't know what I was going to do. And that curiosity and trying to add as much value as possible really gave me a lot in return over the long term. I was planting seeds, as you were saying, all those conversations and that helped me in the long run.

And look where you are now. I mean, look where you are and look how you got there. In fact, when I hear your story, which is just incredible, I talk to people all the time and I say, don't go to the next job, grow to the next job. Because if you grow to it, it's natural. So you started asking questions and start, you're job training right there for what you do. And it was a natural evolution and you grew to where you are today. I mean, you did, You didn't sit on your sister's couch and say, I'm going to go be this incredible talk show host and personality. No, I'm just going to go talk to people. And so it was natural. So when you grow to where you.

Go.

It feels comfortable to you. When you go somewhere, it's very uncomfortable. You think, okay, now what do I need to know for this job and the whole process? But you're a beautiful example, Louis, of growing.

I appreciate it. Thank you. Growing. Constantly growing. And this, and I was telling you before we started, this is 10 years of this show for me, and I feel blessed and grateful every day I get to sit down with someone like you who's got experience and wisdom that I can learn from and share this with others. And again, you're, you're, you're really of, you've got a wealth of information, more than just leadership, obviously, and communication. you know, 50 plus years in marriage, you're probably like the foremost expert on marriage also in the world right now since no one stays married that long. But I did want to ask you a few questions about leadership before I went into communication.

Sure.

Because you've got an amazing new book out about communication, which I'll talk about here in a second. But you've been in the leadership game for a long time. And I'm curious, what are the two or three leadership qualities that were the same 50 years ago as you were kind of entering into this world and learning about this, you know, content and style of influence. And so what are the things that are the same from 50 years ago? And then what is something maybe that is evolved in leadership and communication over the last decade that you see is a great asset to bring to the table and learn and develop and grow into as a leader?

That's a great question, Louis. What got me into the leadership game was when I was in my 20s, I came to the conclusion that this is what I'm known for. Everything rises and falls on leadership. I became totally convinced of this. I studied successful people like you and one day I can remember saying, The key to success is being able to lead well. And when I wrote the 21 Laws of Leadership, the first law is the Law of the Lid. How well you lead determines how well you succeed. So everything rises and falls on leadership. When I became convinced that that was true, I also became convinced that that was something worthy of my time. That I could give my life to that, because if it's true that everything rises and falls on leadership, if I can teach people how to lead, what an added value is going to be to them. So that I knew 50 years ago, I'm 76 now. What's beautiful about that is today, I believe it more than I believed at 26. It's been proven thousands of times. that everything rises and falls on leadership. So I've given my life to something that really works and that is a true principle. So, and by the way, on rising, when leadership is good, there are two things that causes it to rise, and there are two things that causes it to fall. This is very simple. What causes leadership to rise is good leadership skills, and good values. And you have to have both of them. You can't substitute one for the other. I know you have very good leadership skills, but they have very poor values. And what happens is if you have good leadership skills, but you don't have good values, you'll manipulate people and you'll be unfair to people. You know, it's not right to manipulate people.

So what are what are what are two or three skills and values that you've seen have proven the test of time of all types of leadership and all industries and avenues of life.

Well, one of the leadership skills that is so essential is a soft skill, but it's foundational for leadership, and that is good relationships. People won't go along with you if they can't get along with you. So you have to really, in fact, I tell leaders all the time, quit leading. When you stop loving people, stop leading people. 'cause it's not gonna work if that makes sense to you. And so that's huge, and that's one of the things that we talk a lot about. The skill of the ability to cast vision.

The cast of vision, is that what you're saying?

Yeah, the cast of vision. See, a lot of people can see something, but they can't cast it to make it contagious.

How do you cast the vision to make it contagious?

Well, it has to be contagious with you. And then secondly, you have to understand that you need others to accomplish it. So that's what causes you to cast it. See, so there are a lot of people that are successful but they're not leaders. They have a vision for themselves. They have a vision for their entrepreneurial. Perhaps they have a vision for their business. And so they do very well for themselves, but they don't lead others to it. But, you know, when the vision is bigger than you, you have no choice. You've got to relate well to people, then you have to make your vision contagious to people to get them to join you because, you know, one is too small of a number to achieve greatness. And so you have to have the ability to develop and create teams. That's a huge leadership skill that you have to have. The values, obviously the first value is just valuing people. that's, you know, you never add value people to people that you don't value. You just don't do it. And so if I devalue people, and that's one of the things that's heartbreaking to me today in leadership is the division that leaders cause. And, you know, great leaders unite their friends and divide their enemies. The leaders we have today, they divide their friends and unite their enemies. That's horrible. And so the ability to, you know, to build a team, these are all good skills, but the value of valuing people and integrity, wow, the, you know.

When you're evaluating someone to be on your team, to have a, you've got a big vision, you've casted this vision, and you're evaluating someone to be on your team, and they say all the right things. how do you know if they've got the values of integrity or if they're just really good at saying the right things?

Well, a lot of times people are just really good at saying the right things. And so when you bring people on your team, you do two or three things. You 360 degree them. In other words, you have your top players interview them also. You know, 20 eyes are better than two. Sure. And so you have them go out with them socially, you have them work a little bit of, in other words, you, and then you bring your team together and say, is this the right fit for us? Is this person us? And many times people have said, no, they're not us. And I probably would have hired them, but they saw things that I didn't see and they helped me. not make a mistake. So I think collaboration is really essential in hiring. And I think when you're having a company, I think companies lose people all the time and they bring people in. So the question is not, are people coming in? I mean, it's like a revolving door to a certain extent. The question is not, are people coming in and are people going out? The question is who's coming in and who's going out? And from a one to a 10, if eights and nines are coming in and twos or threes are going out, oh, happy day, you know? Right. But if twos and threes are coming in, eights and nines are going out, there's an awareness. So to go to your question, because it was such a great one.

Yes, sir.

Let me say this, because when I started off 50 plus years as a leader, all you had to do was see more than others see. That's the one thing that all great leaders have in common, is they see more than others see. They see a bigger picture. So when I started, if you could see the big picture, you could lead. You saw.

Yes.

Today that's not true. Today you have to see not only more than others see, you have to see before others see.

Okay.

And because of social media and everything, before is starting to even replace more. And that's a huge, what does that mean? Well, it means that first really works. and you have to be able to pivot quickly, you have to be able to adjust fast, you have to be incredibly, you have to constantly be aware of the changes around you, and you don't have time to, you don't have time to kind of say, well, I'm going to give it six months and think about it. You know, you give it six days, and hit it. And the fastest person doesn't win the race, it's the person who starts first. The reason I got my leadership niche is because if you go back in the 1980s, Louis, there were no leadership books in bookstores at all. None. In 1985, if you'd go into a bookstore, okay, there'd be one book on servant leadership that was written in about in 1940 something, there would be no books on leadership at all. There would be all management books, all management. Peter Drucker, he owned the world. Peter Drucker, in fact, he mentored me. He was a wonderful person. But things began to move so quickly that no longer could companies manage. Management likes things to be very orderly and have an even pace. and not move around a lot because you manage. Well, leadership is exact, leadership thrives on change and movement and oh my gosh, what happened? So the reason leadership books started getting into the bookstores was because you couldn't manage, you can't manage speed, you have to lead it. And then, so, and I realized that, and then I was the first person to come out with, we're talking about first is better than fast. I was the first person to come out, there was basically, I wrote the book called Developing the Leader Within youn. And that book was all about the fact that you, up until that time, they really thought you were a born leader. You either had it or you didn't have it. And I came out and said, no, no, that's not true. There are leadership skills you can learn. You can develop yourself as a leader. And I broke into the leadership world on that, basically on that theme that you can develop yourself as a leader. And it just, my books went crazy. I mean, they just hadn't read anything like that. And so, So the scene before now is just, everybody's aware very quickly what's happening, good, bad, you know, beautiful, ugly, doesn't matter, they're aware. And as a leader, you have to be poised to move very quickly and be very, you got to pivot fast, you know, it's being agile. Agility is a great strength right now of a leader. of a leader. I think that the latest on Harvard Business Research is that if you have a bachelor's degree from college, it only has a five-year lifespan and then it's over. Five years. Five years. If you're not adjusting, changing, moving, you're going to be left behind very quickly. So that's a big change. It's like the game of baseball or football. Okay, any sport. Football is the same, football is, it's the game of football, but every game isn't the same. Right. It's all football, but every game is different. And it's the same way with leadership. Leadership's still leadership. I'm still teaching leadership after all this time. But so much of it has changed in the way that you, when I started off, if you had a position of leadership, you were a leader. I mean, that was important. I'm the boss, I'm the leader. Today, positional leadership is hardly important to be able to lead others. It's just those kind of things all the time. I mean, I could go on forever. This conversation could not stop.

I love this. I love this. I'm curious, what is the, this is a two-part question then. What is the biggest mistake you see leaders making today with all the changes that are happening so fast? on the internet and just society and culture and politics, what's the biggest mistake leaders are making today? And also, part two, what is the biggest thing you've missed out on as a leader in the last five years where you didn't follow your own advice?

The biggest leadership mistake that leaders make is they lead by assumption. They assume that they know where the people are and they don't. And assumption is the mother of all mess ups in leadership because if I assume, Louis, that I know where you are, I will lead you in a way that won't help you at all. In fact, I tell leaders all the time, you gotta find the people before you lead the people. So you don't start leading people, you start by find and asking questions is the way to beat and defeat assumptions. So when I ask questions, I find you, and when I find you, I know where you are, and when I know where you are, then I can lead you well. Does that make sense?

Yes. And the biggest mistake that you've made as a leader in the last three to five years, where you didn't follow your own advice?

Well, I think that I... Or something.

You missed out on, an opportunity that because you weren't flexible or adjusting or whatever it might be.

Yeah, I'm given a lot of opportunities and I'm kind of opportunity driven, so they're very attractive to me. But because I get so many, I can't say yes to all of them. And so there have been a couple of times where I had opportunities to do something that would have as I look back on it now, would have had a good high return that would have helped me help people a lot more, but I didn't have enough bandwidth for it or, you know, I had too much on my plate. So it was, I knew I was losing out. Only time told me how much I lost out. You follow. In other words, you know, five years later, you say, oh, that was, that wasn't a loss. That was a loss, you know what I mean?

Big loss. Yeah.

As far as that. But I think that I think when people are highly successful, the biggest challenge I have is not my to-do list. It's my to don't list. And, and, and I, and, and so what I miss today normally is not the fact I wasn't aware of it as much as it, it was the fact I just couldn't, I couldn't get to it. And for example, when you get to a certain stage in growth and development and success, you can still grow, but it's very incremental. But if you can come along somebody else and partner with them, you can explode potential. And so I've missed out on some partnerships that I could have gotten into that would have helped explode in a positive way some good things. But I just didn't have enough time to get it because I keep building myself. And so, you know, if I could go back, I would change some of those things.

Sure, sure. You've got this book out that I'm excited to dive into, 16 Laws of Communication. And I want people to go get the book, 16lawsOfCommunication.com if you use promo code Lewis at checkout, you'll get free shipping and a discount, so make sure you guys go and check out this massive hit of a book already. Again, you've been studying leadership and communication for a long time and you've been teaching it, you've been applying it. What is your greatest leadership strength based on all the principles you share and your greatest communication strength and which one is the one you're still working on the most?

Well, I think my greatest leadership strength is I have the ability to cast a vision that people want to be a part of.

How do you do that so well? Can you break it down? Well, if you're talking to someone on your team and you're like, I do.

It better today than I used to. Let's start there. and part of it is because of who I am now. So for example, when I started, I started a coaching company 11 years ago, and for 20 years people said, you ought to have a coaching company. You coach a lot, you mentor people. And I thought, it goes back to my plate. I thought, I don't need another thing on my plate. I've got a whole bunch of stuff going. And so about 11 years ago, I decided to start a coaching company. And now it's the largest coaching company in the world. We have, you know, Wow. 50,000 plus coaches in 172 countries. And it's just exploded. But I think a lot of that growth and casting vision, attracting people is because I've been in the leadership world for 40 years. I was already kind of like a proven... I was a proven commodity. People didn't say, I wonder if I should follow him, you know what I mean? It's kind of like, I can use his name and be an entrepreneur and be a coach, and that name is going to open up doors for me. And so I think part of that ability of being contagious with vision is the success. I think the more success you have, that itself draws people. so in leadership, probably cast a vision. In communication, I think my greatest strength in communication is that I really can connect with people when I speak. And the book is a lot about how do you connect with people. In fact, one of the laws, there are 16 of them, but one of the laws is the law of connecting. And the law of connecting just simply says that communicators know it's all about the audience. They know it's all about the people. And so when people come to me and they say, you know, I want to be a good communicator, you know, what advice do you give me? I said, Tom, very simply, you've got to get over yourself. It is not about you. And that's hard for a beginning speaker because a beginning speaker is, They're not good yet. They haven't practiced enough. They're nervous. They're saying, I hope I do a good job. I hope people like me. Yeah, I hope if I tell a joke, they laugh. And so they're very consumed. They go out and speak, but they're all self consumed. And you can't connect. You can't connect with people if you're consumed with yourself. And so, you know, so it takes a while. It takes a while to, you know, to get over yourself. But the moment you get over yourself, First of all, the nervousness of speaking goes away, you know, 'cause now I'm not worried about, well, I hope they like me and, you know, will they applaud what I've done? And, you know, do you think they'll take notes? Well, see, that's all about me. It's all about me. Instead of focusing on, so when the book was coming out, Louis, we did a video on the 16 laws. And I talked to the producers and I insisted that the video start with me in the audience. not on the stage. And so when the video starts, I'm sitting in a seat in an auditorium, and I'm the only one there, and I start off by saying in a few moments, the auditorium would be full of people. And it's all about the people. And it's all about my ability to connect with them, to understand them, to put them first. And it's not about the stage yet. I will go to the stage, but don't go to the stage until you've thought about the audience. It's all about the people. So a fun thing that I've done, because again, I keep growing, I keep creating, we keep developing, and I love the whole process of where I am. I'm still learning so much. But one of the things that we did, it was an idea of a guy in Nashville who, of course, Nashville's music and he has a company of writers, very successful. And he came to me, I didn't even know him. He said, I read your books and I learned it. I built my company off of your books 20 years ago. And he said, I think you ought to write songs based on your books. And I thought, oh my gosh, I never even thought of that before. And I love to write poems. I write to my grandchildren and to my children. Every birthday I write them a poem. and the night before I write it, and then I send it at 3:30 in the morning on their iPhone. So when they wake up in the morning, they have what they call a papa poem. And so I love to write poetry, but I never wrote songs. And so I said, I'd love to try it. So I went to Nashville, got in the studio with these awesome writers. I mean, these guys write number one songs for all the country stars. So I'm at the bottom of the class. I mean, I know nothing. You know what I'm saying? These guys are, and one of the things I teach is that if you're the head of the class, you're in the wrong class. Get out of that class. You shouldn't be in there. If you're the head of the class, you're just talking about what you do and you're not learning anything. So I always like to be around people bigger, better, faster, smarter than me. This was huge. And I got in the studio and we started, I watched them and I learned from them. So we started writing songs and one of the songs that we wrote off of the 16 Laws of Communication is the song, get over myself. And the core, in the core, basically is I gotta know myself to be myself, I gotta be myself, to find myself, I gotta find myself to improve myself, I gotta improve myself to get over myself, I gotta get over myself so I can give myself to you. And it's been released. So any of your people that are on your pipe, wherever they download their.

Stuff, You can go to Spotify now.

Oh yeah, Get Over Myself is one and then another one I wrote from my book Today Matters. I wrote a song called Day by Day and that one's coming out or that's out now. Those two are out and they're doing great. Oh my gosh, they're doing super. And then I got another one coming out next month on Sometimes yous Win, Sometimes yous Learn.

And I'm having a blast.

I'm just having fun.

Are you singing also? No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, that's it. You got to start singing next time, John.

Oh, I don't think so.

I think get your voice out. Get that deep voice out there.

You know, we gotta hear it.

The deep voice, they can auto tune it.

You know, the deep voice is better for speaking than it is for singing, trust me. All right. But it's so much fun, and, and I hope they get it. And, and it's just fun to, it's fun. And so I'm going to do, I'm doing a whole album.

I'm releasing a song about every, every two months throughout the whole year. It's gonna be fun. That, that's inspiring. You know what you just shared? was one of the best pieces of advice that I heard about, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. When I was on my sister's couch, one of the things that I did is I found a mentor who was a great public speaker, spoke to college campuses around the country. That was his job. And I met him and I was like, what do I, you know, I can't speak in front of three people without stuttering, stumbling, and forgetting what I'm going say, and feeling like I'm insignificant. And he said, you got to join Toastmasters and you got to go every single week and you got to put yourself in uncomfortable situations until you get better. And I followed the plan. I went to Toastmasters every week for a year. It was horrible the first few months. I mean, I was, I couldn't look up and look anyone in the eyes. I hadn't written out behind a podium, word for word, my speeches. I was, It was humiliating, embarrassing, sweating everywhere. It's not fun. But that was the only way I could really grow into becoming a better communicator. There was to practice to be uncomfortable. And after about seven years, I started to build a brand. I started to have some success in business early on. Before this podcast started, I started to speak on certain workshops and then bigger stages.

Sure.

And I would do this for, I don't know, seven or eight years and it got bigger and bigger and I started to make more money as a speaker and all these different things. And after seven or eight years, I remember I would still get nervous the day before and the day of. I would still have this anxiety and this stress and I called one of my coaches about an hour before a speech that I had, nothing too crazy, probably a couple thousand people, but it was a good event for me. And I remember calling and saying, why am I still insecure and nervous? And he told me exactly what you said, which is why I think your advice is some of the best advice. He said, you,'re too focused on yourself and how you look and trying to look good. Stop worrying about you and start focusing on the audience. Know that you might forget that joke. You're gonna stumble over yourself and who cares as long as you're serving people there. That's what matters. And I have taken that approach the last five years and the nerves are almost completely completely gone. And I feel relaxed because I know I'm not going to be perfect, but as long as I'm in service, that's what really matters. So I'm so grateful that that's your advice and coaching for people on how to communicate, especially on stage.

Totally. It's such a great story and it's so helpful to the people that are on your podcast because honestly, Louis, the moment that they get over themselves, 90% of their stage fright, their nerves.

Oh, man.

Well, it'll all go away because now you're focused on other people. And thanks for telling the story because I find that to be true with a lot of people. And you got good at it. You had a good coach on that situation. Yeah.

I mean, I was, because I trained to be a speaker. I learned the skills. I learned how to effectively communicate. vocal variety and all the different skill sets, but the ability to overcome myself was the not the final one, but it was the one that was holding me back the most. And I still can grow in a lot of ways as a communicator, obviously on stage, but that was the one that was hurting me the most. I've got a few final questions if that's okay with you, John. I could speak to you for hours, but I want to be respectful of your time and we'll have to do it in person when you're back in the States.

Yeah, shoot away.

And I want to make sure people grab your book, 16lawsOfCommunication.com, go there, use the code Lewis. When you check out, you'll get free shipping, you'll get a discount, and I'm sure you'll get some other goodies and bonuses that are around there as well. So make sure you guys go check that out. We'll have it all linked up in the show notes in the description as well. But again, if you're looking to, if you're watching or listening and you're looking to become a better human being, But becoming a better human being is about being a better communicator and about listening to people and understanding where people are coming from, what their challenges are, what they're struggling with silently, what they're struggling with publicly, and having a better understanding about others, which I think when you master yourself, you can understand others better. And obviously, the skill of enrollment is a powerful part of communicating. And I know that's a lot about what you talk about is getting people bought into your vision, bought into you as a human, trusting you in that process of communication. So I highly encourage you to buy a few copies of 16 Laws of Communication and give them to your friends as well. You've obviously got, I don't know how many books you said, 84, 85 books, but there's so many incredible ones. so I want people to make sure to get that. Obviously 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is one of your biggest sellers, I believe, and people can get that and all the other books that you have out there. So any airport you go to, you'll see racks of your books stacked up everywhere, so make sure you guys grab a couple and give them to friends. You'll always gain value out of these lessons from the inspiring John Maxwell. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end, John. It's called the Three Truths. It's a hypothetical question. And I'd like you to imagine for a moment that you get to live as long as you want to live. And you get to continue to live a beautiful, healthy, rich life of friends, family, and impact. And all the dreams that you have from here until that last day, they all come true. But for whatever reason, It is the last day many years away. And for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of the books, all of the content, this interview, every speech you've ever given is gone. It's not here in this earth, it has to go somewhere else. We don't have access to your content anymore and all your words and your wisdom. But on this last day, you get to leave behind three truths to the world. And we will get to use these three truths. These would be the three lessons that you would leave behind, not having any other access to your content or information. What would those three truths be for you?

Great question. Well, I have to say that since you ask it, it's a personal question. I am a person of faith. So one of those truths would be the fact that God loves people and through his Son, Jesus would love for them to have a relationship with him. So that would be obviously, that's what I would call the eternal faith truth. The second thing I would say to them is that fulfillment comes through a significant life. And so what they need to be doing is caring for others and helping others and putting others first in their life, because I think that's where true meaning, purpose, fulfillment comes out of. And the third thing I would say to them is never stop growing. I had a mentor in my early 30s who one time said, John, growth is happiness. when you're growing, you're just happy. And I find that to be very, very true. I I I'm 76, and I I I'm still growing. I'm still learning. I'm still asking questions. I'm still reading. I'm still curious. You know, I had it. When I had a. When I was young, I had a mentor ask me what my plan for personal growth was, and I said, well, I don't have one. I didn't know I was supposed to have.

I.

No one ever told me I should have one, and. and he told me these great words. He said, John, he said, growth is not automatic. If you get better, you have to be intentional. There's nothing automatic about it. Getting older is automatic. Getting better is not. And so, you know, wow. So I would say keep growing, you know, just keep learning, never lose that passion, that desire. In fact, what happens at 76, my growth capacity is greater than it was at 26 because I've been doing it all my life. So that's amazing. So I learned more faster, bigger, greater today than I ever have before because I built up this incredible growth capacity over these years.

Well, you've got so many great books, but I love that you're an avid reader and you've probably read a ton of books over your life. I'm curious if you could recommend three books for people on just any three books you would recommend to help people, inspire people, grow their life, improve any aspect of their life that aren't your books, what would those three books be?

One of them would be, is a big book. It's a huge book. I mean, it's like, I'm so sorry, it's probably 700 pages. But I read everything that Doris Kearns Goodwin writes. She's an historian that loves leadership. and she wrote a book called A Team of Rivals, and it's about Abraham Lincoln. And in fact, the movie about six years ago called Lincoln that was so popular, it was off of her book, the Team of Rivals, okay? It was off of it. So, I mean, it was her book that stimulated and was the catalyst. And the reason I would want him to, it's a thick book. But it's worth it. And what they need to do is make it like a summer project or, you know, I read about 15 pages a day and mark it and then put it down and you do that, you know, for a couple months until you're through it. But the reason I would want them to read that book is because we are very divided in our country now. And we have leaders that are, I'm very leadership sad. But we have leaders that are on both parties, both parties, doesn't matter, that build their election on dividing the people. And great leaders unite their friends and divide their enemies. And the leaders we have today, they're dividing their friends and uniting their enemies. It's pathetic. And anybody that understands leadership gets very sad to see it. So when you see Abraham Lincoln, the team of rivals comes from the fact that his cabinet was made up of people that ran against him for president, that hated him. You know, Seward called him a gorilla. I mean, they hated him. And he said, the Civil War is so important to our country. I have to have the best minds in the room, regardless of if they're politically on my team or not. That was huge. And I think today, It needs to be read because we desperately need an Abraham Lincoln. We desperately need somebody to come and unite the people. And remember, he took a divided country, a civil war, and brought it back together. Then we take a united country and try to divide it again. It's very sad. So that I would that another, okay, another book that I would recommend that everybody read it. It's the old classic book, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I mean, it's, you know, it was written 60 years ago, 65, but it is the relationship Bible. I mean, you read that book and you can develop relationships. I read it for the first time when I was in the seventh grade. My father paid us, Louis, an allowance to read books.

I love that.

Huge. So, you know, all my friends got an allowance for doing chores. In fact, I went to my dad and said, Dad, all my friends get allowance for doing chores. I think that's a good idea, don't you? He said, that's a terrible idea. He said, you do chores because you're part of the family. And I don't pay you to be part of the family. Good Lord. He said, By the time you were born, you already owed your mother for nine months of room and board. So, Yeah. And he said, why would I want to pay you to take out the garbage unless I want you to grow up to be a garbage man? I said, I put my money where my values are. That's where I learned the values thing. So from the seventh grade on, we were paid to read books. My father picked the books out. And I'm the middle child, three of us. And we read books. And by the time I graduated from high school, I don't mean this unkindly, I was so far beyond my peers. because I was feeding and reading these incredible, and he would pay us, what he paid for the book is what he'd pay us to read it. And our conversations around the table were about the books that we were reading.

That's great.

Huge, huge. So, I think that's just a great, and then, you know, wow, there's a book I read a couple of years ago that I just think is so good. There are so many I've read, but James Clear wrote a book called Atomic Habits.

Yep, you know he's a Columbus guy.

Yes, he is. He's a black guy, yes. In fact, I'm going to be with him real soon and he's just a terrific guy. But I think the ability to develop good habits is just so key to people's success. And I've read several books on habits, but there's no book like Atomic Habits. I think it stands alone. what the research he's done and the experience he's had with the people he's taken through his habits, schooling, et cetera. It's, yeah, that's a, now I'm starting to sound like the Chamber of Commerce for these people.

I love it, John. I'm grateful for those recommendations and I recommend everyone grabbing those books. I've got one final question for you for this interview. And again, hopefully we do many more in the future, but one final for this one. Before I ask the question, question. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, John, for being an incredible, humble servant to humanity on how to improve the quality of their lives and how to be better leaders for themselves, their friends, their families, their relationships, their careers, their businesses. And you consistently show up and serve. So I acknowledge you for your consistency, your level of service, your level of commitment to people bettering themselves. I think it's one of the greatest things that someone can do is show up and serve other people with their skills and abilities. And you do it in your unique way. And it's inspiring and fun for me to watch. So I'm really grateful. I'm glad we got to have this conversation. I hope we get to do many more. Maybe I'll come golfing with you sometime. I got to get some new clubs. So you'll inspire me to get some clubs so I can come golf sometime.

We'll do it.

I'll go watch a Buckeye game together.

Oh, yeah, that we will do. I promise that.

But my final question, John, is what is your definition of greatness?

I don't think people determine greatness. I think history determines greatness. I think that greatness lasts beyond the person's life. And the longer they're gone, the more important they were. It doesn't fade. And it doesn't fade because what they gave their life to and who they gave their life for was so important that it continues to live. It's kind of like a legacy is not what you leave for people, it's what you leave in people. and I think greatness, the great ones, leave something in people, the spirit that abides within them. And no matter where they are, who they are, they are influenced by that person. I think, you know, Nelson Mandela was a great leader, and it was a He was a great leader. He was a great man. And, you know, I've been to Robin Island. In fact, I went over and they, literally, I went over with a news reporter and a fellow prisoner of Nelson Mandela for a half a day. And the prisoner, I knew him well. I wanted him to tell me stories. And in the process of being on the island, we came to a cell. A cell was only 10 by 10. 12. It was very concrete bare cell, little mat on the floor. And so I asked the reporter and his fellow inmate if I could just have some time alone in the cell. And I asked him to close the door. And I laid down on his mat and I looked out the bars, which looked out at kind of just a little window, but it looked out on kind of where a recreation field would be. So, you know, I didn't spend a long time there, maybe 15 minutes just reflecting and thinking about this man. So I came out and the news reporter was eager and she looked at me, she said, what happened in there? I said, well, I just wanted to be where he was. I mean, he spent 27 years there. I wanted to put myself in his shoes. I mean, you can't, but I mean, for a few minutes. And she said, well, what's your takeaway? And I looked at her and I said, my takeaway is you can't imprison greatness.

Wow.

You can't imprison it, but this greatness is greatness. It'll come out. You can't lock it up. It's destined to make a difference for people. And I think the great ones, you can't lock it up, you can't control them. They were born for a reason and for a season in people's lives that could make a difference. And so to me, greatness, greatness last, stardom fades, you know? And so it's, it's kind of like, make sure that you're leaving something in people, not just something for people. It's so much easier to stick to.

A habit if you're in an environment that supports it. And there's this whole chapter in Atomic Habits, it's called the Secret to Self-Control. And one of the surprising things that I came across when I was researching the book is a lot of these self-control studies we typically will like kind of the standard story we all tell.

Is, oh man, I wish I had the discipline.