The Success Expert: STOP Moving the Goalposts & Finally Say “I’ve Won”! | Simon Sinek

I've talked to so many people who decided, I don't need friends. I just need people who can help me achieve my goals. And the result is loneliness. Not a single person will ever, ever, ever say that was worth it.

His unconventional views have made him one of the most sought-after speakers on the planet.

And the visionary behind one of the most influential TED Talks of all time. But those who lead inspire us.

Simon Sinek.

Okay, I'll feel good when I hit this goalpost. Nope, moved the goalpost. I'll feel good if I make my second million. my third million, my fourth million, this many followers, that many followers, this many hits, that many hits, this many likes.

Nope.

You'll feel good for a second and then you'll pass and you'll have to move the goalpost again. Once you've reached your goalpost, you have to say to yourself, I'm not going.

To move the goalposts anymore. Because if I keep moving the goalposts, I'm never going to be satisfied. Then why do so many people want to be rich and famous?

What is missing within them that they.

Want success, fame, or wealth, or to be known so badly? Well, I think It seems like the biggest sacrifice most humans are making today is a sacrifice of not having friends for success, for career, for greatness, for whatever it is, people pursuing something so passionately, for writing their books, for creating their business, whatever it might be. It's like, well, I'm gonna commit for this decade or two decades to being the best I can be. Yeah.

At the sacrifice of friends.

And at the sacrifice All right, well.

That one's different because not a single person when they achieve the thing that they achieve will ever, ever, ever say that was worth it. None, zero. I've talked to so many people who decided grades, career, money, I don't need friends, I just need people who can help me achieve my goals. And the result is loneliness.

Yes.

I mean, look at, you know this as an athlete, right? Look at Olympic, look at Olympians, right? Especially individual sports, individual athletes, team sports, they don't really, it's not really the same thing. Which is they have a dream when they're fairly young and their dream is to, and you know how they put it, win the Olympics. Nobody wins the Olympics, right? That's how I'm gonna win the Olympics, right? And every relationship they have is, can you help me? Are you going to help me? And individual athletes, tennis players, I mean, they're very similar. Every relationship they have is, are you going to benefit my dream? And if not, then I have no space for you. And they don't really have friendships. They have transactional relationships, coaches, support trainers. Trainers.

Yes.

A supportive parent, you know, and some of them will get to the Olympics and some of them might even medal. And when it's time to retire, what they achieve is loneliness. Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled Olympian of all in history. What's the immediate result? Depression. Depression. Andre Agassi becomes the most celebrated tennis player of all time. What's the immediate result? Loneliness, depression. And none of them will look back and say, oh my God, I think that was worth it. The thing you're celebrated for is fleeting. You'll be forgotten. You'll be replaced. Someone else will... It'll be a new, a new coming. You know, I was walking down Avenue of the Stars here in California, here in Los Angeles. And I was reading the names of some of these movie stars. I'd never heard of them.

Maybe there's two or three of them.

40 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever they were, right? 40, 50 years ago, whatever they were. These were the Ryan Reynolds of the day. I had never heard of any of them. Steven Spielberg, there was some director, no, I'd never heard of him. These were the most famous people of their time and I had no clue who they were. And every single celebrity, my niece doesn't know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is. Why should she?

Right.

Right?

And the only reason my nephew knows who he is is because I made him watch Terminator. And, And so I think we forget that fame is fleeting and we will all be replaced by somebody else who will have the job after us. You and I both know this. I'm fully aware that my books are out there, my ideas are out there, and somebody else will have an idea and it'll replace my idea just like I replace somebody else's. This is all borrowed time.

Then why do so many people want to be rich and famous? What is missing within them that they want success, fame, or wealth, or to be known so badly?

Well, I think we've over-indexed on that. We can't ignore social media. We cannot ignore, prior to social media, only a small percentage of people listening to this will know what I'm talking about. We used to watch Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous with Robin Leach.

Yeah, yeah.

Champagne dreams and what is it?

Caviar dreams and MTV Cribs was like...

MTV Cribs was like... and we, you know, we watched television of rich and famous people and it was, I mean, it's amazing. Like we, we, it is, there is an aspirational nature to it. And I'm sure back in the day, we looked at the carriages that went by the princes and jukes and went, oh, one day. I'm sure it's aspirational. And I think in healthy doses, there's nothing wrong with it. This is the magical thing about a lottery. For $1, you can have a dream for an entire week. You spend $1 and you are already dreaming about how you're going to spend the money. And then you don't win, of course, and you're not upset about it. It's not like you spent the money already. It's just a dream. You just paid for the dream. And that's, you know, if you're gonna spend a dollar, it's different than being addicted to the lottery. That's different. That's like betting the farm, hoping that that's your actual retirement plan. That's unhealthy, that's different. But if you spend a dollar every now and then, a couple bucks every now and then, just for the fantasy, I think it's very healthy. I think it's fun. And it's to your point about intention. But I think what has happened in our society is fame and fortune used to come as a result of doing something else. It was the unintended byproduct. Like I discovered, you know, radiation. Oh, Marie Curie, you're so famous.

Right?

Or I did this amazing painting. Oh, Picasso, you're so famous, so rich.

Right?

That fame and fortune came as a result of plying a trade or contributing to something bigger than yourself. And now, fame and fortune are the currency. People crave fame and fortune without doing anything. And they're looking for a hack. They're looking for a trick to game the system to get the fame and the fortune without actually contributing to the lives of others in any shape or form.

What's the price people pay who get famous without contribution beyond fame?

Loneliness? Dissatisfaction? I recently spoke to Vivek Murthy, who's the Surgeon General of the United States. And he was an A-type personality kid who was driven by grades. I'm gonna get A's, I'm gonna get A's, I'm gonna perform, I'm gonna perform at the sacrifice of friends, just like what we talked about, right? School is number one. And at the age of 17, I don't remember the circumstances, but he had to do some sort of like do-good program. maybe school required it, maybe he needed to do it for his college application, who knows, right? I'm sure it was not out of altruism. And he set up sort of an AIDS education, peer to peer AIDS education program in India, right? And he said it was the most powerful thing he ever felt. He'd never felt anything like it.

Really? Why?

The idea of contributing to the lives of others. Service, service. And he spent years trying to recreate that feeling, not knowing how to get that feeling again. And no amount of commercial success, grade success, you know, he went to medical school, getting the best residency, like none of the traditional trappings gave him the feeling that he had when he got to give something to somebody else. And I think we forget that We are a legacy animal in a modern world. We are a very outdated animal. This machine is tens of thousands of years old, and it's had no upgrades. No OS upgrades ever, ever, right? And yet the world is super modern, and our systems are really archaic and antique and old-fashioned. And so you have to understand the way the human being is designed is we're designed to look after each other. You know, like everybody talks about dopamine, you know, the dopamine hit. Well, dopamine is in your system for a simple reason. We go back to caveman times. It's to make sure that you eat and to make sure that you find shelter, right?

So.

You see the apple tree in the distance, you get a little shot of dopamine, It says, that's the thing you want. Go get it. And as you get closer to the thing you want, you measure the steps and the progress. And in this case, the tree gets a little bigger because you're getting a little closer. It gets another shot of dopamine that says, Keep going. Keep going. Feels so good. And then finally you get, you kill the animal, you get to the berry tree, whatever it is, you catch the fish, you're like, Yes! Right? Win the game.

Yes.

You know, like when you're training and you can see, you can see, you want that win, and you get closer and closer and closer, and then you win, you get the fish, you get the thing, you get the thing you wanted, and the feeling goes away. Like, do you remember that incredible feeling you had when you won that tournament? -I came out. -Okay, that feeling is gone.

-Gone.

-That feeling is gone. That feeling that you had that day. -It's a memory. -Gone. It's a memory. You can recall, but the feeling is gone. and on purpose. Dopamine doesn't survive because dopamine wants you to keep going to get the things you want, right? So dopamine is the feeling you get when you achieve the thing you want to achieve or find the thing you're looking for. That's why love at first sight is not a thing. So, you know, it's like, oh, we went on our first date and I'm telling you it was love. I'm like, no, it's dopamine. Because you're like, you dreamed of a person, you projected that dream on this person. You're like, you are the one. No, no, no, no, no, no. Just a vision. So it's the wrong feeling. That's just dopamine. Endorphins don't really have a role in survival anymore. They used to be, endorphins are a chemical that mask physical pain. So when you're out hiking looking for food or you kill the leopard, now you need to carry it back and your muscles hurt and it's heavy. Well, endorphins keep you going and they literally mask physical pain. That's what they do. It's a survival thing. We have no survival need for endorphins anymore. We just go to the supermarket. But everybody who's done exercise knows what an endorphin rush is and it feels amazing and you feel like you can keep running forever and this is the best. Oh my God, this is the best. And then a few hours later, you're in pain. The pain comes just later. Yes. The difference is, but then you have, but endorphins and dopamine are selfish. You don't need anybody's help to get them. Set your goals, achieve your goals, go for a run, do heavy exercise. You don't need anybody's help. They're antisocial or unsocial, right? So when we pursue dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, we don't actually need anybody. That's why we have oxytocin and serotonin. That's where you need someone else. Those are pro-social. When they fire for good reasons and bad reasons in this modern day and age. Sure. But when they're done for the right reasons, it's pro-social. So when you go see your son or daughter graduate, your son and daughter walking across the stage receiving their diploma, pouring with serotonin. Serotonin is the feeling of accomplishment, the feeling of pride.

Right?

And they're walking across the stage with their chest out, I did this. And it's amazing, right? But their parents sitting in the audience are having the same burst of serotonin, feeling equally as proud. That's my kid. And that's serotonin. It's, you get the reward for coaching somebody, parenting somebody, supporting somebody, helping somebody, watching them achieve and sharing in their achievement.

Right?

It's our achievement. And that's why people give thank you speeches. I couldn't have done this without God, my parents, my coaches, my who, They're sharing, they're sharing. The recognition that I can't achieve alone. And then oxytocin, the magical one, which is unicorns and rainbows, mushy, mushy, love, love, right? And oxytocin comes from many, many reasons and you can get it many ways. Physical touch gives you oxytocin. But doing something for someone with no expectation of anything in return gives you oxytocin. An act of kindness.

And that's what that guy, the surgeon general.

That's what he did, the surgeon general. He does something nice for somebody else with no expectation of anything in return. and he felt good. He felt incredibly good. And the best thing about oxytocin is when you have it in your body, all it does, it makes you wanna be nicer. It's mother nature's way of trying to get us to look after each other. And so when people don't serve, when they don't give to others, they might be consumed with dopamine, which is exciting. The problem is dopamine is addictive, 'cause you only feel good in the moment of the achievement. -When you keep needing it. -which is why the drug, You only feel good when the drug is in your system, and then when it's not in your system, you gotta get it. Same with dopamine. Gotta keep it, I gotta keep moving the goalpost. Okay, I'll feel good when I hit this goalpost. Nope, move the goalpost. I feel good if I make my second million, my third million, my fourth million, this many followers, that many followers, this many hits, that many hits, this many likes. Nope, you'll feel good for a second, it'll pass, and you'll have to move the goalpost again. And the thing that I've learned, This is a, you should pursue something, you should have some sort of ambition, and I don't care what it is. You define your life however you want to define it. I want to have a family. I want to start my own business, right? And once you've got there, once you've reached your goal post, you have to say to yourself, I've won. I'm not going to move the goal posts anymore because if I keep moving the goal posts, I'm never going to be satisfied.

Then what do you do for the rest of your life? If you want the goal early.

No, it's nothing to do with the goal early. It's now you've got the thing that you wanted, and now you get to design a life that you want. Irrespective. You don't have to pursue winning anymore. The win has happened. You can look back at the goal post and be like, I did the main thing I wanted. I did it. So whether it's Whether it's the Olympics or starting a family or starting a business, whether it succeeds or fails, right? I did it. And now I'm gonna design a life that I wanna live beyond. And it's relative to however anybody else wants to define the win.

Do you feel like you've gotten the win for yourself?

I've had to learn, it was a lesson that I learned this year. And it's a friend of mine who said it to me. 'Cause, you know, it was Teddy Roosevelt who said, comparison is the thief of joy. And I love the way he put that, the thief of joy, it steals joy. If you keep comparing yourself to other people and what they've achieved, that act of comparison literally will steal joy from you. You will never be satisfied with what you have because you will always find somebody who's richer, better looking, got a nicer house, a net better car, a better looking girlfriend or boyfriend, better vacations, you know, Whatever it is, 100% of the time. 100% of the time. And the metrics are completely, like if you and I started comparing our metrics to each other, right? If I looked at your podcast audience views, I'd be like, I'm a failure. Louis is, beating me out of the water. I'm a failure. But if I changed the metric to LinkedIn followers, Who's your daddy? I got you. I'm crushing it, yeah. I'm crushing you, right? Oh, but let's make it book sales, or let's make it- Intellect, or household income. Yeah, whatever. And like, I can feel depressed, or.

I can feel elated, just by simply.

Changing where I'm looking. That's exhausting, right? And so I think what ends up happening is we focus on the one that is competitive. Well, I'm going to get more followers than Lewis, I'll show him, and I go ahead, I'm like, Yahtzee! But if I just look over here, I'm a loser again. And I think that's what I mean by winning, right? Which is, I kept changing what I was looking at. I'm like, I'm doing great. And then I would change what I'm looking at or change who I'm looking at. I was like, ugh. You know? And it was a friend of mine who said to me, Simon, you've won. Stop it. Stop it. like he won.

That's something you learned this year. Just this year. Really?

Yeah. And how old are you now?

51.

51, yeah.

So you feel like- you- look older than me. You look great, by the way. That's the first thing I said, man.

You got the fitted shirt. Just the shirt.

It's a well-cut shirt.

So do you feel like in the.

Last, I don't know, three decades since you've been in kind of the, you know, school, working world, business world, that you've always been jumping from comparison to comparison versus- I think we all go through phases.

I think there are times where I make no comparisons and I'm very satisfied. And there are times for whatever reason, bad night's sleep, feeling a little insecure.

It sneaks in. Ah, why is this person sneaking this?

It sneaks in.

I'm a smart guy, I should have this. Why can't I create this? Or I've been working for so long.

Why isn't it here yet? It sneaks in. Yeah, I think it's unavoidable. And that's why I don't actually believe in winning or losing. I mean, you know that about me. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a rhetorical trick. It's a rhetorical trick. It's another way of saying, just be grateful. You're fine.

So if you feel like, I mean, I guess, so your friend told you this year, listen, you've already won.

Yeah, and again, it's a rhetorical trick.

Which you don't care about winning or losing, but you already created what you wanted to do.

Like, I set out to contribute to the world. And I made strategic decisions that my contribution would be bigger than me.

And it has been big.

So for example, people who come up with ideas, they put a little TM on whatever they call their idea, always. On their website, trademark. Little trademark, which basically means, don't touch, this is mine, mine. I want everybody to know it's mine.

I own this idea.

I own this idea. It's my IP. Everybody knows what IP is, right? And I never did that. You'll never see a TM on the term Golden Circle, but you never see a TM on the concept of why, and you'll never see a TM on the physical drawing of the Golden Circle. Do I technically own all of those intellectual properties? Of course, right? Usage. You own it just with usage. But I never put a TM in it because I cared more that people used the idea than knew where it came from. And people do use the idea and not know where it comes from. And I don't pursue anybody who uses it.

Without crediting you.

Without crediting me. I don't care. Because credit wasn't the thing I was in pursuit of. It was impact that I was in pursuit of. So I made strategic choices to help drive impact rather than to help drive credit.

If someone cAres more about getting the credit for their work or their ideas versus making an impact. What is at stake for them if they care more about credit over impact?

I don't judge anybody's choices for their own lives. And as we said before, there's always a cost. The question is, is the cost worth it to you? So for me, the cost came in, you know, I probably could have made more money. I probably could have, who knows what, right? And that was fine. For me, that was a worthwhile cost, you know? Because I was driven more by impact.

Was there any price you've paid that looking back- It wasn't worth it? You're like, was that really worth it for that many years or this much time or this much stress thinking about this one thing?

Yeah, so I guess the question is, is giving you regrets? Yes, the simple answer is I do. I don't have regrets for mistakes. I have regrets for repeating mistakes.

What was the biggest mistake you repeated?

One of the biggest mistakes is I trusted somebody I shouldn't have trusted because they knew more than I did. And I doubted in my gut and said, well, they've got more experience than me, I have to trust them. And then I tried to fire them and they talked me out of it. And then I continued to do business with this person who continued to screw me over and over again. Really? And he is a taker. He's an astonishing taker. And... How long was that going on for? A long time.

Years, decades.

Years. Years. Years.

So you regret not changing course.

I should have trusted my gut the first time and ended the... the relationship.

You're known for your brilliance, your intellect, your idea, critical idea generation, solving problems. This is one of the main things you're known for. You are the modern intellect that people go to to pay a ton of money to help them solve problems, to speak and influence people, and democracy, capitalism, versus communism. But how do we make things happen in the world better? This is who you are.

I know, silly, isn't it?

It's not silly, but I'm just curious, what do you think was something that you lacked for your own self to be able to see the situation in front of you in order to make a better decision for yourself?

In that particular case? Yeah. A self-doubt. Mm-. Self-doubt. Nothing short of, I'm not good at that. That person is experienced. I should trust them. Other people said I should trust them. I don't trust them, but I should trust them. So I'm gonna trust them because everybody said I should trust them, even though my gut said don't trust them. And when I came to the realization, like this person is not trustworthy, I'm gonna fire them and I don't want them helping me anymore. And I tried to and they talked me out of it. I wasn't smart enough on how to change a contract.

Is it smart? Is it about being smart?

Because this is the thing, you're extremely smart. But is it- I have a type of smarts.

Right.

You have a type of- I don't have all smarts.

Sure.

I have some smarts.

What is the skill needed for you to reach a new level of intelligence, let's say, so that you don't repeat these things in the future?

So, I think the, it's a great framing. The, it was the, what I should have done I was afraid of setting myself, I was afraid of not having that kind of support. I was afraid of not knowing what to do without this person. I was afraid that I wasn't smart enough or didn't know how to navigate this industry without this person that's by my side. And what I should have done is just, it's like, it's like, it's like when you're sitting on the couch, and you're overweight, and all you do is watch TV and eat and eating ice cream for every meal. At some point you go, I gotta get into shape. And you make the decision to get into shape. And the thing you didn't expect is how much it hurts.

Painful.

How much it hurts to start getting into shape.