"THIS IS WHY You Keep Having Relationship PROBLEMS!" | Dr. Shefali & Lewis Howes

When your worth is not tied to anyone else's opinion and it's all your own, you own every day. Your child doesn't define you, the mirror doesn't define you. Sure, we'd all like it all to work in our favor, but it doesn't define you. You reach a place of I think you gotta have a dream.

The School of Greatness.

Really? Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes.

You've got a new book called A Radical Awakening: Turn Power Into Pain, Embrace youe Truth, and Live free. It's all about how to break free of a lot of things that have been holding women back specifically in their lives. Marriage, relationships, sex, monogamy, even their last name. And I'm curious, why do you think so many women play the victim in their relationships in general?

Whoa. Okay.

Because you mentioned beforehand that women play a lot of victimhood in certain areas. not everything, but certain areas. What does that look like in relationships?

Well, let's just back up a little bit and understand that women have had a really raw deal in this toxic patriarchy.

Absolutely.

Okay, I grew up, and I told you on my last interview with you, I was molested up the wazoo by the time I was 11 and had to really learn how to protect myself, defend against predators lurking behind every corner. So as a woman, it's been really difficult for me, and I know every sister out there has had to deal with the toxic patriarchy. We've been trained to be quiet, trained to muzzle our true self, trained to play small back of the line after everybody served on the table, trained to allow violation of space and mind, So, we have to understand that if we want to awaken now, we have to first name the toxicity for what it is. We have to name what's happened to us, but then the radical awakening, which is what my book is about, is own how we now do it to ourselves.

Okay, so name the toxicities, that mean naming the abuse, the shame, the guilt, the insecurity, the fear, name those things. Yes, yes.

The objectification, the oppression. that the culture has given us a really hard time and has really put us in a weak position and call it. So the women in the MeToo movement took a long time to come out because culture told them they have to be the good ones, they have to be quiet, don't ruffle feathers, don't rock the boat. Culture has subjugated us with these messages and we have bought into them. So the first step is to recognize the cultural BS. And that we are living in a toxic matrix and we have to redefine everything we've been conditioned to believe.

Like what? What's main things?

The lies about beauty, the lies about being youthful, the lies about wanting to be in a relationship where we believe we should be owned and possessed. The lies around motherhood, the lies around love. You know, I talk about all these lies in the book. So one by one, I systematically deconstruct and debunk. these lies that have actually enslaved us. So that's step number one, is to recognize you've been living in a cultural matrix that has lied to you. Step number two, when you radically awaken though, is when you take ownership for how you are part of that co-creation. So when you talk about victimhood, we are victims. However, being and living in victim consciousness is where we get stuck.

So victim consciousness versus victimhood, what is that?

Well, if I'm raped tomorrow, I'm a victim of rape. Yes. If the man I'm with, if I happen to be with a man and he physically abuses me, that is called physical abuse. We should not be afraid to muddy the waters. Abuse is abuse. Call it what it is.

Call it, I've been a victim. Don't hide from it.

Don't not talk about it. Be silent. Speak up. If you've been a victim, speak up. Empower your children to say, I've been a victim. that's very different than living and being in victim consciousness.

What does that mean?

Victim consciousness is when you hold on to the perpetration and you now perpetrate yourself and you keep the power with the other person.

So not forgiving, not forgiving yourself for the situation or not saying it's okay what happened, but not allowing yourself to heal.

Not healing.

Not healing.

And not moving on.

Got it.

Blaming the one who took your power away. And we don't realize when we blame the other, we give them our power even more.

Really?

Right. We stay tethered to them. True empowerment is to take all power back, including blame.

So how does, when something horrific happens to a woman?

Yes.

And they've got to go through a pro, I mean, man or woman, and they've got to go through a process of healing. Some of these things might take a while to heal, though. Absolutely. Might take years, right?

Decades.

Decades if something really tragic happens.

In your childhood.

Exactly. So how does someone not shame themselves for taking a longer time to let go and deal with the process that it takes for them, the grieving process, the pain process, what is a timeline that we should be thinking of on how we could reclaim that power?

Well, you know, Louis, all my work is unconscious parenting for a reason. Because the pain and trauma inflicted by our parents or those early years takes a lifetime. That's what I do for a living, is I help people uncover how they're replaying the same patterns of the trauma bonds from childhood. This is our whole life, is to recover from the trauma.

What was the main trauma for you that you still work through?

The main trauma, and which I write about in the book, was a pervading sense of unworthiness, which came from growing up in a very patriarchal culture.

You never felt unwor-- you never felt worthy?

I never felt good enough. I was always looking for validation from the men in my life, or my achievement, or my title, my role, I'll be the best mother, I'll be the best wife. It was only in my mid-40s when my kid-- Two years ago. Just two years ago. Yeah. When my kid really grew up that I began to look at myself, because I had finished checking off, like, half the list.

Yeah, went to the great school, got the doctorate, wrote the books, the New York Times, Oprah, all these things.

The kid has grown up. Now who am I? And I realized that I had been living a false self because the bedrock was unworthiness and I didn't even know it.

Until recently.

Until recently. Really? Until I had a huge epiphany, yes. Yeah.

So who are you?

So now I'm evolving and that's why To your question, there is no timeline. It's a process. You will be asleep till you wake up. And you often don't know you're asleep till you have some traumatic moment, till you have some epiphany. So I was on this spiritual path growing, and then one day I grew out of my marriage. And that was my moment of trauma.

You were in the marriage.

I was fine.

And you grew out, you're like, this is no longer for me.

Yes, and then everything looked unfamiliar. and I was so identified with that marriage, I was so identified with that idea of family, but I was no longer that person who entered the marriage. And I had no intention of leaving for years, 25 years. So it was traumatic for me, why? Not just because it was an interpersonal dynamic, but because culture has put so much pressure on us women to be nice. and don't make anyone upset. And don't end the marriage. Don't break through it. Work, sacrifice.

Isn't there a part of working through challenges and not, you know, it's like, okay, if there's a challenge, it doesn't mean you should end the relationship.

No, it doesn't. It took me another two years after my epiphany to really- To work through.

It and figure it out.

I stayed, I worked through it. You must, because it's not the other person. It's what's coming up for you. And until you heal those wounds, you'll carry the same baggage to the next relationship.

And what was the thing that came up for you?

For me, it was that I was the epitome of the self-sacrificial good girl, and I was here to save other people. So after 25 years of playing this role, I burnt out. And I had evolved enough to understand my pattern that I am doing this because I'm so scared to be out of the relationship. I had become enmeshed and codependent in the relationship. So it was all me. The other person was just playing the role I put them to play. Right. You know, you make sure you're really X, Y, Z so that I can feel the same way I felt all my life. You know, we recruit people so that we can play the same emotional role we've played in childhood.

Until what? Until when?

Until we do all this inner work to evolve. So when I did all this work and it kind of collided with the marriage, now is the next confrontation of, now what do you do? Right? I always say in my courses, you know, all your relationships may break up because now you're a new you. Now is another path of a dark tunnel. Now you have to go through no woman's land as you redefine who you are, right? Now you're a whole new being. So you discard old relationships that don't work for you. You release with compassion those that are loving and kind, but you begin to redefine who you are. But people shouldn't be afraid of this. This is a natural process of evolution of the soul. We must evolve.

Yes.

But culture has told us to stay scared, to stay stagnant, keep appearances up, keep your relationship for longevity, not for growth. You know, marriage follows a longevity model.

You're only successful if you're together for decades. Forever!

Doesn't mind if you sleep in different parts of the house. One is in the basement, one's on the bedroom.

Okay, right.

Doesn't matter. The goal is you stay to it's a longevity based model, not a growth based model. So I too was ready to do this for the rest of my life.

You were married for how long?

20, I was with the same person for 25 years. I don't really believe in marriage, so we can talk about that too.

Gotcha.

But I was with the same person. So for me, it was it's not easy to just leave, but we both needed to grow. And once we can decide as a couple that this is not working for our growth, we could release each other. Some do it more beautifully, some don't, right? But we don't wait for permission. We have to follow our own north star of growth and do what feels right for us after working through the process.

So what's it look like to own how you are a part of it so that you don't stay in victim-- you- say victim consciousness?

Yes.

What does that look like?

So the most important spiritual lesson I try to pass on to all my clients and all women is you are definitely a victim of the patriarchy. We never forget that. But within the patriarchy, you are now a victim of your own oppression. Victim consciousness is where you keep the consciousness of the oppressor, but make it your own. So now you objectify yourself.

Give me an example. What's that look like for someone today?

Oh my goodness, across the board. So if you just take our mental attitude, the culture has told us to be quiet, be kind, be sweet, be polite, and don't be powerful or real. So now, if a man molests us and it's a public space, that's why people in the MeToo movement had such a hard time coming out, because the culture has told us, so now we do it to ourselves. Don't say anything.

Right.

Pretend it didn't occur. denied, oh if our child, you know how many clients, women I have whose children are being abused but they turn the other cheek because they can't disrupt the family system. So this is how we do it to our children now. We do it to ourselves. Okay, take another aspect of our physical looks. You know we look in the mirror and we see now all the faults that we believe culture has told us we should not have. So we objectify ourselves. You know, no one is a greater inviter of critic than ourselves. Critic than ourselves. And for women and beauty, because we've been so objectified, we do it to ourselves. It's a daily onslaught. So we've taken what culture has done and we've made it our own.

So how do we begin to recognize, because I think for years, I didn't even recognize that I had traumas of the past. It's like I put them away, I didn't wanna think about them, and I just focused on like accomplishing and achieving and being significant and being seen, 'cause I didn't feel seen as a kid. So how do we start to identify the traumas of the past so that we can actually start to heal them? Yep. So there's two pathways.

One is voluntarily or involuntarily. Okay. So no, very few people do it voluntarily. You know, who's like, what do I.

Wanna think about today? Let me think about my trauma.

Let me think about my life and let me undo my patterns, right? So I went on a spiritual quest when I was 21. Very unusual, right? I was so fascinated by self-work that I knew that was my path. So I entered it without trauma necessarily. So the involuntary way is how most people enter.

An event occurs that's traumatic and this doesn't work. I'm gonna break down.

They hit rock bottom.

Yes.

So you have to really hit rock bottom. So what does that mean? And as a therapist, I want rock bottom for my client.

Yes.

Why?

That's the only way to go. the next step.

Yes, yes.

If things are 80% good, that's the worst place to be. That's the worst place. The worst place is like, things are good right now, they're okay. That's the worst, 'cause you can't get out of that. It's so hard to get out of.

That, unless you're- It's not amazing, but it's not terrible.

I'd rather be everything falling apart, 'cause then at least I'm like, okay, this.

Keeps happening, I need to figure out a new way to being. Right, so what you're saying by that is that, When we say rock bottom, what is really hitting rock bottom is our ego, our false self. All the ways we were pretending don't work anymore. What a beautiful gift that is. That's why I call it the gift of the rock bottom, because when you get to that place, most people freak out. But therapists are like, come to me, come to me. Because this is your portal, because you're finally without your defenses. The athlete doesn't work anymore. The comedian doesn't work anymore. Charmer doesn't work anymore. Pretty girl doesn't work. Nothing's working. How amazing. Now you get to go deep to figure out who you are without those roles or labels.

And a lot of people try to cling onto them as long as they can.

Yes, yes. Because they're scared.

Scary.

Scary.

So what about the voluntarily? It's hard to get there, right?

Voluntarily, it's hard to be like- Somebody.

Who- Let me prove myself today.

Existential philosophers, you know, I was like that kind of kid, like I was always seeking. So I went for Vipassana meditation when I was 21 because I wanted to find out another meaning to this madness. I was like, I knew this was mad. And I was, this can't be all of it. I needed to go on a discovery of myself. So I put myself in that position, but it's not typical. You know why? Because we're in a rat race. You know, we're on this conveyor belt just chugging along, checking off the prescription list. Our parents have brainwashed us, culture has brainwashed us. we're so scared to get off the conveyor belt, you know? We're like, let me just stay on.

Because we're gonna upset our parents, our family, our peers, whatever.

You know, everybody, the most daunting practical thing that happened to me when I got married, when I was getting divorced was, how am I going to tell people? You know? And then I realized, is that my problem? Like other people? And I realized, yes, other people is our problem because we're so tethered to what other people think. other people's opinions. And I realized I don't owe anybody any information about my journey until it happens organically. So I really told people only when it happened organically. And people got upset by that because they thought they were entitled. And I had to let them know, this is something very deep and personal.

This is my life, not your life.

You can't have an opinion about this. you know, like people are upset, they're crying. I'm like, you need to deal with your projections onto me because the projections are enormous.

Yeah, they are.

They are for everything. If you're famous, people project onto you. If you look a certain way, they project onto you.

If you're broke, if you're rich, yeah, everything.

It's like constant. Once you realize that, oh, people are not even noticing you, they're just projecting, that's a huge turning point in the spiritual process. Oh, they're just projecting.

So once the ego has hit rock bottom, how should we start to evaluate our traumas, our pains, so that we can move forward, so we can heal them and move forward.

Oh, once the ego hits rock bottom, it's the most amazing place to start. It's ground zero. When was the last time for you?

Oh my God, two years ago.

Really? Yeah.

You hit rock bottom. Oh, I hit rock bottom.

But you were already awakened, I thought.

You were already conscious.

You were teaching people these things. I was going through many. Levels.

Yeah, so there's another level in 10 years?

It could be, how lovely.

Why do we gotta go through so much pain?

No, it's not pain, it's unfolding.

Okay.

Yeah, I loved what I went through. I honor and cherish all the pain because I needed to break down. See, we look at pain in a very absurd way in this culture. We're so pain phobic. As a therapist or as a healer or seeker, Pain to me is the most open place. Pain is openness.

Isn't that what Rumi said, like, light is where the wound enters or something? What did he say?

I don't remember.

Something like that, like the light is where the- yeah, well, we have to- the wound is where the light enters. Yeah, exactly. But I think it's true. Once you go into the darkness, then that's where you can shine the light and start to reveal things and peel back the onion. Yeah. It's interesting. A few weeks ago, I had a big realization in my life, massive, that might have been groundbreaking for me because I'm 38. For probably 38 years, I have been conditioned to people please in every area of my life. Originally with family, then with friends, but most specifically in intimate relationships. Every intimate relationship for some reason, I have allowed myself to let my boundaries be crossed to make someone happier. Or when there's frustration or disappointment with me, whether I do something or I don't do something, I give in to create peace. It's something that I realized I used to do as a kid with parents.

You were the mediator, the peacekeeper.

Exactly. The one that tried to make things light and easy. And I stopped doing it over the years in friendships and family. But I wasn't able to, for whatever reason, until a few weeks ago, going through some coaching and therapy, and something awakened in me that I was just like, I've been afraid to upset people my entire life.

Yes.

And every time I do something to make someone else happier, but then I disappoint myself, I betray myself and I'm out of integrity. Very good. And I feel a sense of like, tenseness and tightness in the chest and the throat whenever that happens. And I resent myself. I don't resent them, I resent myself.

Yes.

Because I give in. Something happened, and maybe you understand this because of the work you do, something happened where I had this tightness in my chest and I was feeling this on and off for years, not because of someone else doing something, because of me. And all of a sudden it was like a ball of pain that went to, all I can say is it went together and it kind of like disintegrated. And I haven't felt that pain in my chest since that moment, since that, I don't know if that was a layer peeling back of awareness, but I felt like I was just like, I'm sick and tired of feeling this pain.

Wow.

And I think a lot of us have been feeling this low level or high level of frustration or pain or something inside of us.

We've suppressed it.

We've suppressed it. Yes. And I was not willing to let it go until recently. And it's the most freeing feeling.

Yeah. freeing.

And what you talk about in your book is like just being your truth, allowing yourself to feel free, which I feel like a lot of us, men and women, all humans don't allow ourselves to feel free.

But you see, you couldn't have predicted that.

I didn't know.

You didn't even know it was coming. I didn't know. That's why when you said, How many times am I going to go through this? It's a constant unpeeling. Watch when you become a dad. If you ever become a dad, it's gonna be crazy, right?

It's gonna be done.

Unpeeling. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine?

Trauma. What was the biggest awakening when you were in the first two years of being a mom?

Oh, that was the birth of this whole conscious parenting. When I saw how unconscious my ego was to have significance through this infant. I was like, look at me, don't look at him. Look at me. It was like talking, you know, you have a crazy talk that you become aware of when you become a parent. What was your talk? Judgmental of my infant.

Judgment of your baby? Yes, yes.

It's like a one two year old. Yes, that don't make me feel so bad. No, I'm trying to understand.

I'm just saying that when you become.

A parent, you're like, Don't cry too much. Why are you- oh my god, something wrong with the kid? Something's wrong with the kid. Oh, the kid doesn't look like me, looks like my mother-in-law.

Oh, the kid is acting like this.

Oh, kid is not Indian enough, kid is the other person's costume. You know, this is in the mind. I'm not telling my kid. Right. You begin to- Right, right. You're saying this to yourself. You begin to become aware. If you're aware, at your crazy talk. And you begin to get alarmed. So when I heard these inner voices of judgment and control toward this being who I supposedly unconditionally loved, that's when I realized, oh, that is the voice of my ego, my fear, my control coming out. And I want to micromanage this being into a puppet. But I was aware of that. And it was traumatic for me to see the shadow within me.

Really?

But that's what birthed my whole work in conscious parenting when I saw my own unconsciousness.

What's the thing you're most proud of and least proud of as a parent?

I'm least proud of those moments where I'm unable to trust my child.

You know, I mean, it's probably all parents don't trust their child, right? Because they make stupid mistakes. I used to do the dumbest things as a kid. I mean, you hope you can trust them, but it's like-- But we have.

To understand that-- They gotta make their.

Own mistakes too, right?

But the reason you are you is because of all those mistakes.

A lot of mistakes.

Right, but you can't prevent or, you know, preempt mistakes.

What happens if you prevent them or suppress them too much from figuring it out?

You're projecting utmost fear and terror into your child. Your kid is gonna stop living. So every time I put my fear, by not trusting, I curtail her. Now, it doesn't mean I let her smoke marijuana at the age of seven.

Right, and drinking back all night.

I trust you.

Yeah, drink all you want. Eat, yeah.

This is about how I can see when I project my own terror. So whenever I've done that, I have not been proud. And what am I the proudest of is that I've truly understood that it's all about me and I've done my work. every time I see her react toward me in a way that upsets me, I know it's something within me. So I'm able to turn that mirror inward. And that's my one achievement in parenthood is I can look at my crazy now, you know, so much crazy.

So when your child screams at you or gets angry at you in the past about something, were you able to just look at it from a different perspective and not allow your ego to be attached and say, no, you're wrong and be in the argument? Is that what you're saying? You could just kind Detached.

Well, it's taken work. You know, I'm very, many years ahead of you. Yeah, a lot of work to understand two things. One, the child is acting the way they are because of something in them, right? So they're not doing anything against you as a personal vendetta. It's not a personal attack. It's something inside them, right? We only act badly because we feel that.

Is this in relationships also, intimate relationships that the other person yelling or screaming or getting angry or blaming. It's not about the other person, it's about them when they're getting angry. So how should people who are in intimate relationships respond when the other person is yelling or blaming or getting angry at you? At first you're going to respond in.

The typical way, which is fight back.

Defensiveness, angry, you did it, no I did it. But when you begin to see that.

This is the dance, at some point somebody has to stop the pattern and go, oh, we have been here before.

This game doesn't work.

It's a dance. Somebody has to break the pattern. Somebody has to misstep, not show up in the room, turn away.

And what happens when that happens?

Then the other one has to fall, right? Because they have to dance alone.

Well, they try to grab onto more.

Yeah, onto you, right? So it's a dance. But the most beautiful gift we can give our partners is to say, I see that you're hurting. I know you want to make it about me, but I can't play this game, right?

Oh, man.

That's really hard. Oh, it's hard. But you grow up, you grow up and you don't be part of somebody else's drama and they have to grow up.

What happens if the partner doesn't grow up over time of working through it?

It's really hard. Then you come to a tough precipice of, okay, can I keep growing with this person or do we just stay here? It's a lot of questions.

Do I stay in the game or the dance with the person where they want to be?

Do I say, no, we can't play the game anymore? So once you're aware of it, then what? I'm waiting for them to heal. Now you're saying, what if it takes five years? If it takes five years, 10 years, 20 years. Incremental. Now you have to make a very tough choice. It's hard and you know how hard it is for women and mothers to make those kind of choices. Very hard. With children, with all the pressure that culture has told them that you don't get to walk out, ever. Women have to be the glue. But if their partner isn't growing, what are they supposed to do? And that's why the way we live right now in these nuclear little pods is so unhealthy for our women, because they can't get out of these relationships.

What do you mean nuclear little pods?

Like we're living in nuclear families, right? We're not living on a commune or anything.

On bigger families, small isolated families.

Isolated. So if the male is abusive or toxic and is holding the money, what does this mother do? She's been conditioned to be quiet, to be submissive. Now she's given up the money. Now she's raising children. That's why women and mothers need other women to support them in a toxic patriarchy that we're living in right now.

Sure, sure.

And men can fulfill that job too of providing support. I'm just saying our women are getting neglected especially the mother. She wants to be a businesswoman. She wants to look skinny and amazing. She wants to, It's a lot of pressure, isn't it?

A lot of pressure the modern woman has and she's new to this. Are they putting it on themselves? Now we're putting it on ourselves.

Or are they allowing others to put it on them? It's both. It's both. It's a semi-permeable membrane.

Interesting. So it goes in and out, you.

Know, and we put it on our daughters. They see us, you gotta look perfect, you gotta do this, you gotta be, yeah, we are really driving ourselves to the end of our rope, we women, in the expectation to be perfect. Men don't have it so much. Men have the expectation to be competent and achieving. Women have it with this internalized oppression to be perfect.

That sounds exhausting.

Yeah, men can't even really relate to how exhausting it is to battle this conditioning. Right. You know, we get it from when we're like knee-high.

I mean, men have their own conditioning. We've talked about this for a while.

But you have an advantage because you're in the patriarchy. So the patriarchy favors the man. Really. And favors the white man. It's a white to fight patriarchy. So whether we like it or not, the men are a little few inches ahead, you know?

More of a vantage.

Yeah, it's a come on.

So we all have to deal with our emotional demons.

Yes, yes.

I don't care.

So there are two levels, right? So there's culture.

Yes.

So in the culture, men have an advantage, the white man especially. In the personal family, we're all messed up the same way.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

And no matter how much- the patriarchy comes into the home.

Right. But also, no matter how much money or success a man has, if they have a demon inside, they still have to learn how to deal with that. So you could be a prisoner to these traumas or expectations you might have, it doesn't mean you don't have advantages.

In life and could be dealing with the same demons. In the home, that's why I do the work in conscious parenting. In the home, we're all inheriting unconscious shame, blame, unworthiness, all of us. Now, when the boy steps out, he is in an advantage position. The girl is not in an advantage position. She's getting double whammy.

You know, so what can women do to not be double whamied or when they're getting double whamied, what should they be thinking and doing instead?

Yeah, well, it's two levels. One is, like I said to you, you have to name it. You have to be able to call the lies. Like we need to teach our daughters, this is a lie. This is a lie and this is a lie. And we need to, as women, debunk and tear up this prescription list that we were raised with. To be this way and perfect and skinny and white and whatever we were raised with, we need to change the prescription list and teach our daughters to call the lie. And then the second way is to give them a legacy of worth. But that can only come when they see us.

-We'Re feeling worthy.

-Yeah. The mother is the key.

How do mothers start to feel worthy again?

-Yeah.

When they haven't for so long, potentially, or they've made everything else about everyone else except for themselves.

-Yeah. So, you know, and the movement is incipient, but it is growing to allow women to have their voice. So, I think there's several layers. One, one big level is that we sisters, we women, need to stop competing against each other for the attention of, say, a man. Like, we need to bond, we need to be with each other.

Why does that happen so much?

Do you notice that?

Why do women do that?

Do you see that?

I think men do that as well for a woman, but why? Is that?

I know.

What's the underlying, like to feel good enough, worthy enough? If he chooses me, then I'm worthy enough?

But we're giving into the patriarchy when we do that.

But what happens if we convince someone to choose us? What happens if we play the game or whatever, compete against someone else, and convince a man to choose, I'm acting like I'm a woman here, but I'm convincing a man to choose them. as opposed to them seeing you who you are and choosing you because of your energy, not because of your playing game.

That's what I mean. We play right into the patriarchy that we then say oppresses us, right? So we're trying to out-beauty each other, for example.

It's exhausting.

And we're just enslaving each other in the same clutches and we don't realize we're doing it to each other. You know, we should all go, you know, with our saggy faces and saggy bottoms out into the world and not give a damn. And in that way we sisters support each other and we teach men, this is how we really look and deal with it, right? But we can't because she's got the Botox and she's got the really big, nice curvy ass and I look too ordinary. So now I'm feeling unworthy. So at the bottom of it all is unworthiness. But we need to stop competing with each other. We need to celebrate each other. We need to stop putting on the false roles when we're with each other. And let me tell you, women are constantly-- Really?

When you're together-- when women are together in general, there's false roles happening.

A lot of false roles.

There's fake support.

Of course.

Really?

Of course.

Gosh, why?

Because we're unworthy. We feel like we have to compete with the other. So you made 12 cookies? Okay.

I made 12.

I made 37. In these very subtle ways, you know, we're always trying to outmother the other.

Really?

Yes. What do you think all these Facebook posts are about? Look at my kid eating spinach and look at my kid is the star of the baseball team or posting where your kid goes to college. And I know I'm saying things that people are not gonna like, but I want people to examine when they post why are we posting our life? Because we want to give an impression that we have a better life. Right?

What if it was just like, I'm proud of my child and I'm proud of my life?

There's an element of just, but even pride, it's like, does the whole world need to know how proud you are? Isn't Grandma enough? Grandma used to be enough, but now the whole world needs to know. You know what I mean? It's coming.

I heard you say it.

Yeah. The social media madness. feeds the insecurity.

So that's one thing we do. Did you get acknowledged by, oh, what.

A good mother, or, you're a good mother. But you also get more dependent on it. Now you're checking to see how many people liked your post, liked your new hairstyle.

So this is how we continue the oppression.

We feed into it. So we need to have a second thing. We're a part of it. Yes. And the second way and the ultimate way to liberate ourselves is what you and I have been talking about is looking at our childhood trauma, and how it has clutched us in unworthiness and the roles we've played because of it. So in my book, I talk about the three main roles that women play.

What are those?

The givers, the controllers, and the takers. So the givers are, you would fall in the giver, the people pleaser, the savior, the victim, the martyr, the empath.

That's maybe.

Then you have the controller, who's the overachiever, the perfectionist, that's you, right? The tyrant or the unemotional shield. And then the takers are those who are like divas and princesses and complainers. They're just expecting life to change on its own.

Okay, yeah, they have expectations.

And now we are some of all. But when we notice, wow, I'm that and I'm that and I'm that and how did it come to be? So I talk about that in my book. So every woman can see her patterns and go, wow, that came because I was traumatized in this way. Now you begin connecting the pieces. Right. And the biggest liberation will not come when our patriarchy becomes a matriarchy. The biggest liberation will come when us women heal our unworthiness.

I think it goes both ways. When men heal as well, so they don't keep hurting people.

Yes. So when we heal, we will raise our sons and daughters to be whole and healthy. Absolutely. And of course, there's a lot of focus on the men. But I'm just letting women know, don't wait. Do your work. Don't wait for the man to change.

Exactly.

Or the patriarchy to change.

Right.

We have a lot of work to do.

So someone is a giver. They give when they people please. They're always thinking about others first. What do they need to recognize and what action steps could they take to start the process of moving forward?

Yeah, yeah. So the first step, and I did this to myself, is I gave myself a seven day experiment that I wouldn't speak until I was authentic. Okay? So if anytime I was doing it to people please or avoid a conflict or because I was getting nervous or anxious.

That's been me my whole life.

Don't talk.

Yeah, don't talk.

I didn't talk practically the whole week because everything out of my mouth was to people please or to take care of somebody else's feelings or to not say what I wanted because I was afraid of conflict. So I became aware. The first step is always awareness, whether we like it or not. And that's arduous and painful. We have to look in the mirror. Then the second step, after you become aware, you have to ask yourself, what is that moment before I jump in? Like what's happening in my body? Like you said, that pain.

That's when you feel that tension or the tightness or the clenching or whatever. What is that telling you? What does that tell you when you feel like, I don't want to say this, I don't want to do this, but I feel like I have to because whatever.

So let me tell you, that pain is coming from old inner child pain. That's why it has been sitting inside you. You suddenly become a five-year-old boy terrified of pissing the coach off or pissing dad off or pissing the teacher off. That's what is in you. So you have to get in touch with that and go, oh my goodness, I felt this all my life. It's for my inner child, the neglected little boy or girl. Now what do we do? Now step three, very hard and hopefully people should recruit a coach or a therapist by now because you need help. Now you have to heal those needs of the inner child versus jump to do the role. So you see the pattern is that every time you felt that pain, you just jumped and did the role. You took care of the pain by suppressing the pain, and you took on the role.

What happens if we suppress the pain long enough?

It won't go away. You'll become ill. You will have dysfunctional relationship after dysfunctional relationship. You'll become addictive. You cannot suppress pain.

You'll do something.

Pain you cannot suppress. It will find its outlet somehow.

This is why I feel like a lot of the men who are the angry men who are causing harm, physical harm, emotional harm in the world. Now that I've been through a lot of it myself and still growing and working through it, I can see it for what it is and know that, okay, they haven't healed something. This is why they're so angry, defensive, needing to win at all costs, whether it be politically, business, relationships, intimacy, all the domestic violence. There's a pain there that hasn't been healed. A lot of men are unwilling to look at the pain. They've been shamed for their pain or whatever it is as well, just like women. A lot of us in general. So how once we feel the pain and we have this awareness, how do we actually start the process of healing? What does healing look like from the seven, six, eight year old who's dealing with this still?

Right, so now you recognize it's a pain I've carried all my life. I see now the pattern. Now I have to re-parent myself. So I talk about re-parenting a lot in the book. Taking our sovereignty back means taking our healing in our own hands. And I talk about how we can become the inner mother that we never had or the inner father that we never had. And you have to do a lot of inner dialogue to stop yourself from playing that role, right? You had to stop yourself from being the pleaser. Then you felt the inner child. Now you had a breakthrough.

Yes.

Yeah. It's a breakthrough moment.

This was literally like, it was one of the, it felt like magic. I'm not lying. This is so recent for me. It's so like, I felt, it felt like a ball of pain that disintegrated. And it literally shrunk. It was taking over my whole chest and it shrunk and then it just like disappeared. And I was like, wait a minute, what just, it was the weirdest thing.

You know, I've had experiences where, and I tell people, You know, the pain came out of my hip and it shrunk.

Really?

Because we store pain in our minds in different ways and places. Somebody stores it here, somebody... So you have an experience. We don't know whether it's real or not. It doesn't matter. It feels like that and you can't explain it to yourself.

It's so weird.

It means that the way I look at it is that the power of your awareness disintegrated, burnt through the the ball of pain.

That's insane.

But awareness is our greatest spiritual sword and we need to use it. We're so scared to look in the mirror. It's all clear. But you see, when we come from unworthiness, we're in denial. Because we're in need. If we're in need for love and worth and we're constantly saying, Do you see me? Do you love me? Do you know me? Do you validate me? Do I have permission to exist? then that is the fuel for all our behavior. So we can't see. We're hungry. When you're hungry, you know how cranky you are. You can't really think straight. Your brain is fogged up. Our brain is fogged up with unworthiness. We can't see straight. So the first thing we have to do is understand unworthiness is fueling it, not real love. That's a hard lesson.

Oh, man.

Yes. Need, not love. I tell so many couples. you need her. I don't know whether you love her yet. And they're like, yes, I do.

When someone is feeling that in a relationship, they need to feel worthy by this person or they need to feel worthy in relationship in general. Or what does that look like?

Well, there's love in that.

I know my pattern of stuff in previous relationships of feeling the need for someone to love me and accept me for who I was.

That's why we get into relationships.

Right.

That's why we become parents. And we don't want to acknowledge that it's coming from an inner hole, H-O-L-E, a void. We don't want to own this about us, right? We're like, no, I love my child unconditionally. That's why I want him to play soccer and ski- Do what I want him to do. Do all the things, oh, it just happens to be all the things I want. Oh, this is why I'm in the relationship. And the way we know that it's need and attachment and not love and unconditionality is how much we want to control them, how much we want to possess them. It's all that smells of need and attachment because true transcendent love, true intimacy, very hard to achieve because it requires two whole people.

Trusting fully and who are in their.

Own sovereignty, who don't need very rare. That kind of achievement, that kind of aspiration, cannot occur unless you do the work and you heal. So most of us who haven't healed are in need and attachment control based relationships. Sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry to everybody.

How many people are in control based relationships?

Almost every relationship.

Really?

I know. Yes. What are the parenting relationship? I know. It is control, need and attachment and possession.

What does it look like for most people? What's the common ways of control and need and attachment.

Okay, so it's a repetition of drama where the cycle just can't break. Yeah. You know, not a mutual honoring of each one's absolute freedom.

The boundaries or freedoms or... Yeah, and.

Honoring each other and true articulation of one's needs. Who knows how to articulate their needs? Nobody. And allow the other to be heard and seen. and to be seen honestly and authentically, that's intimacy. So we think we are in intimate relationships, but we're just in functional transactional dynamics.

What if someone's authentic about their need and their need is, well, I need you to, I don't know, check in with me multiple times throughout the day so I know where you are.

It's not being authentic, should I tell.

You how to- Isn't that an authentic.

Need if someone's- no, the this is the authentic need.

Tell me.

Okay. So the person says, I authentically need you to check in with me 10,000 times a day. Right? Now here's the thing. That's not an authentic need. Here's the need. I have such low sense of worth and I'm in such a panic. I get panic attacks because I have control issues from my past abandonment. Can you help me in some way by not feeding the need? I don't want you to call me 10,000 times because that'll just Feed my monster, but can you help me and be kind with me? Because that's my need. My need is for ultimate supreme safety, but I know I can't have that. The need is from my childhood. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying, I need you to give me 10 massages. That's not a need. The need is, why do I have the need? Really getting to the core of it.

So it's not about communicating the need to the other party.

Everyone's good at doing that.

It's about recognizing why is it there?

The real need, the real need.

And when you find the root of the need, then you heal the need.

And you release the other person from meeting your need. Gosh. Right? So everyone's good about saying what they need, Lewis. I need a Bentley, I need a mansion. Very good at doing that. We have to go to why are we looking at the other person to fill that need, number one? Where's this need really coming from? That's the real need.

But won't, I mean, I don't want to generalize this, but won't you hear a lot of women say, well, I need To know I can trust my man, that he makes me feel safe, he protects me, that I know where he's at, that he lets me check his phone, that I can know where, you know, when he's going somewhere or who he's seen. Isn't that a common theme for women? Yes, yes. What happens when a woman does that?

When the woman does that, it means she's completely an inner child believing that she needs those things from a man. She doesn't need that. Because if she has need for that, she's going to be dependent on his every move and looking at him like she's a detective and he's under the microscope. And that means she's enslaving herself to him and giving him her power. When we want to control the other, we think we're getting control. We are getting enslavement to the other.

Oh my goodness. What is the common fear and insecurity that women have when they're in a relationship and that men have when they're in relationships? Is it safety and protection?

Can we just say that the way men and women are relating in relationships is based on conventional possession, control, and ownership?

Both parties.

So it's already messed up. Okay.

You're right.

Now within the messed up matrix, you want to ask, What are the most common insecurities?

Yeah, what's the main insecurity for men in general? Is it, I don't know, that they're.

Gonna cheat on me? Both is possession.

Really?

Both is control in some way.

Safety.

Really. Now, you'll say, but isn't there a real need for one to find the money and the other to cook the food? Sure. But you know, what's the core need?

What's the root need? Possession is what they're gonna control and possession.

That relationships, especially marriage, means that the other one betroths themselves to you, like gives themselves to you for keeping, right? And you put the ring like, you know, like a diamond ring.

And you're mine, and I own you.

And I own you. And you give the woman a big diamond ring so everyone around can see that she's owned. I have never won a ring one day of my life because I have no desire to let the world know I'm owned.

So what about women who are like, you know what? I love my partner. I want to be their partner. I want to wear this as a symbol of my commitment and the circle of trust.

But then we would do it on this finger. We do that finger. It doesn't have to be a diamond. We follow convention because this is what society says. He didn't give you a diamond ring or the bigger the ring, the more the love, you know? We know it's not true.

And then the comparison, it's like, It's.

Not, you can have many symbols.

Sally got a bigger ring, so maybe.

His, they're many symbols of love. It's funny that we all have the same symbol, right? So it's not creative anymore, it's not spontaneous. Every relationship should have its own symbol. How come we all want the diamond ring as the symbol, right? Yeah. Because it's convention. We're conditioned. We have to own how we've been conditioned for these things. The diamond industry is so happy with us. Super happy, right? That, like, Yeah, we really told them that these little pebbles mean something and they all bought into it and they all make their partners buy them. And if they don't buy it, it's a sort of betrayal. The industry is making whopping profit over our buying into this.

Yeah, being brainwashed.

This is just one way we've been brainwashed. We've been brainwashed in every way because it's a consumer society.

What should be three questions that say someone's starting to date someone. They're six months, three months in, six months in, and things are moving along.

I have the questions.

And you want to ask three questions to determine if this relationship has the chance.

Yes.

Of being, you know, powerful, growth minded, acceptance, not controlling. What would those three questions be?

Well, you know, you first want to know how much inner work the person has done. You want to talk to that therapist. You want to see the appointments. You want to know how long they've been doing this. No, I'm just kidding. You'll get a sense of their consciousness quotient. Okay, that is number one.

Yes.

You have to see how integrated is this person from their childhood to their adulthood. Have they worked on their wounds?

Here's the challenge. Everyone shows the best version of themselves in the first year. And they act like they've done this in general, right? So how do you truly know when everyone's on their best behavior? So you don't move in.

Oh, don't move in.

You wanna hang out with that guy or that girl? Go ahead, yeah, did it with the.

You know, it's so. But don't get so excited in that first year. You know that each one is trying to present the false self. So don't you know that? So don't give in for the first year. You know it takes time. So you can't be jumping to the altar right away, right? Yeah. So, number one is what is the consciousness quotient? And then I would, you know, I'm a little unconventional, so I will not find anyone probably, but it's because they'll fail my questions. So I would ask them about their beliefs about, you know, all the stereotypical institutions. And I have done so much work deconstructing cultural lies that I want to be with someone who has deconstructed the bullshit.

Otherwise you're fighting against values, beliefs, ideas.

Then it becomes a schism of basic values, you know? And the more work we do, you know, the more you deconstruct what the bullshit is, you can't be with someone who's bought into the bullshit.

You're distancing more and more your beliefs.

So I think consciousness quotient, which is healing from childhood, and then the cultural BS radar, you know, how good is their BS radar? And then the last thing would be, you know, just how present they are. Are they worthy of their own love? Are they whole? You know, that's all connected to the first two, but it then shows up in that person because they're present, they're radiant, they're joyous, they're liberated. You know, you can see liberated people because they don't need anything from you. Right. Because they're whole.

They're not expecting anything. They don't need something to feel good.

They don't judge you.

They are good.

And they're bursting with that. So you feel it. That's true chemistry, right? You want to be attracted to the essence of the person, not to their sports car or their bank account or.

The way they look.

Because that's going to end. That's transient consciousness lasts. You're living with the person's consciousness. You're living with the person's inner demons. Because after the first two years, when the cars are old, you've been in board, and you've done that.

You travel the world, you've done... Now.

You'Re living with the inner child. Do you like the inner child? That's what we go like, whoa, and your inner child comes out. So does your inner child know how to play with their inner child? And that's when you see the bubble bursts. But it's no one's fault. It's because we both presented with the bubble.

So now we're in a... Don't fall.

In love until two years are up, then fall in love.

What if people are like, this is amazing, this is something, and it's just the illusion.

Wait, I used to have a client who used to get so upset with me. She was like, Before you burst my bubble, she always knew I'm gonna burst her bubble. Because this is what the ego does. It presents the best self. You think you're falling in love. Even the idea of falling in love, you don't wanna fall. You should not be falling. It's just a standing solid.

Exactly.

So the fact that we fall is because we are falling for the illusion. And then we're upset in two years that another relationship didn't work out. Because it was the false self, the survivor who was holding on. And after some time the survivor stops, the ego breaks down, and now you see each other's raw self behind the prison wall, and you are both convicts looking for the other to rescue them. I call them twin beggars. Give me, give me, give me, give me.

You're not giving me enough.

It's never going to be enough.

Wow.

Because we were beggars all along. We needed to only dare to enter a relationship after we've been full. Very hard to do, I know. So let me tell you.

How does a 23-year-old get full?

She doesn't. Get full after... She goes through the pain and the pain. Like we all have gone through heartache after heartache. blaming the other, crying to our girlfriends.

He didn't do this, she didn't do that.

And then everyone commiserates and go, yeah, he was really bad.

He was horrible.

He was horrible, leave him. What a terrible man.

A bad man.

Yeah.

A bad girl.

Right, bad, good, good, bad. You know, we don't realize it's just inner child to inner child, trauma to trauma, beggar to beggar.

What happens when two people who have truly healed their traumas I mean, done the years of work, they're not expecting, they're not holding grudges, they're not resentful, they're not needing something. What happens when those two types of people get together?

I think there's such a thing as a beautiful intimacy. You know, I talk about intimacy where you truly can see the other person, but as their own being. And you don't need anything from them. You don't need them to be a certain way. And they know, and you know that It's a journey. So we walk together for some sunsets and maybe others we don't. And each is okay with that. We'll be sad if the other one walks away, but not devastated or broken. See, we sometimes think to be broken is to have really loved if they left. Similarly, when our kids go off to school or college, if we don't cry, that means I didn't really love my kid. We have this weird romance around crying a lot or pain or brokenness, that means we really loved. No, love is freedom. So we need to be happy for the other person when they go to their other lover.

That's big, right?

But if you truly loved that other person, then how is it about you? It's what makes that person happy. Very hard, because culture has raised us with possession and monogamy. as the main goal. So anyone who deviates from that is a frickin cheater. And we know what we call cheaters, you know?

It's interesting. I'm just listening to you and thinking about my life and my journey. And I've always, in no way am I a perfect human being, but I've always wanted the best when relationships didn't work out. And a lot of them didn't work out well. Like there was arguing and frustration on both sides, me included. But then I was like, okay, we're not working out. And I've always wanted them, I hope they find someone that's a better fit for them. I've never felt like the girls ever wanted me to be happy afterwards.

He needs to go down.

He did this to me. He ruined my life. Yeah, it's like, I've never felt like anyone ever wanted the best for me.

But you can't blame us because we've been conditioned that when a relationship ends, it means the others to blame and there's been a betrayal.

It's their fault.

Right, and betrayal. You know, we fully bought into this idea of betrayal. And I don't believe in betrayal. I believe we only betray ourselves.

Ooh.

You know.

What does that mean? What does that mean?

It means that when we enter a relationship without understanding that we are going to be with the other person's inner child, we betray ourselves. We want daddy, or we want Prince Charming, or we want Mr. Perfect, or Miss Perfect. You can be in a same-sex relationship. And we put on the other the expectation that they will be there for us in the way we need.

They'll be our savior, our hero, our knight, or whatever.

Of course, we all want that. That's lovely. But that was the job of mommy, not another human being.

Our parents are supposed to be there to help us grow up.

They could barely do it. Right. So how is this person gonna do it? But we put on them this unconscious expectation and burden. When they don't fulfill it, instead of wishing them well and going, I get it, I'm an inner child too, I must have been really hard for you to deal with. Or we're both misaligned. You know, our inner children were just fighting in the sandbox. I own my part. Thank you for showing me yours. It's not aligned. I get it.

Yeah, we had a season of life.

And we learned something, hopefully, and we moved on. And say the guy cheated or the girl cheated. We look at the cheating not as a personal betrayal, but as it's a message. Yeah, okay. He wasn't supposed to be with me that night. He felt like he needed to be somewhere else. He's following his soul. But she's like, oh, but he lied to me. Of course he lied to you because he knew you'd react like this. And now look, you'll have broken up, right? No one ever says, Where were you last night, honey? You can tell me and mean it. Right? Every guy knows they don't mean the same where you are. They don't mean it. The woman will kill you. We are raised in a conventional idea around men and women. It's changing now, you know, with all the gender fluidity and all the ownership of rights for all kinds of affiliations. We're changing the paradigm. But still at the core is this paradigm that there's an ownership between the two, and that is the dysfunction. toxic. We all want to own everybody. We all wish that the world was our puppet. Of course.

Why do we have that?

Because it's a childish desire to have control. You know, I. I want you to say exactly what I want because then I'll feel competent and in control.

Really?

Yeah.

And what does control. What does needing control mean? We need to feel safe. We need to feel protected.

Child. Child stuff. Just get. I want to be secure. Mommy's gonna come in at every hour to check in on me. I want predictability. So the greater the kid or teenager didn't have predictability, they're going to go reactive. Either they're going to silence that through an addiction, or they're going to go into mass control, either through mass achievement or mass obsession of the other person.

I feel like I've done all those things in my past.

Yeah, that's everything. Mass control, mass possession.

Manipulation, anger, resentment, Don't do this, control all these things, especially in your 20s.

Because you wanted to make sure you would not be that helpless little boy who didn't have predictability, but you didn't.

Know you were doing it because of that.

I had no idea.

I was so unconscious. Yes. Nobody knows. So unconscious for so many years. It wasn't until I was 30 when I started to really realize, oh, a lot of the trauma I haven't even talked about because I've been so shameful of, and just the process of talking about it allowed me to heal an element of certain things, but not everything.

Yes, we have to talk to a trusted therapist. You must talk because talking allows you to hear your own narrative and then somebody or you can both go, oh my God, I said the same thing as my mother. Oh my goodness, at seven I felt this, at 11 I felt this. You have to narrate your life. That's why it's called a narrative because you have to create a consistent narrative to integrate your life experiences. So people, poo-poo therapy perhaps, think they don't have the time.

Well, I think it's some of the greatest time you can spend for yourself. For your inner peace, for awareness, for greater levels of love for yourself and compassion for others. I don't think I'd be as compassionate understanding. And again, I'm not always compassionate understanding, but I don't think I would be have the levels of intimacy and connection and love to myself or others without on and off therapy, coaching workshops, emotional intelligence training, like all of it. And I think it's so important for so many people. Are you still practicing?

Yes.

You're still seeing people.

I see people on Zoom. I have a full practice. I have a coaching institute where I train people to become coaches and they're going out into the world. So for me, self-growth and self-help is the cornerstone of my living and my being.

What happens when people say, you know what, I'm not into therapy or self-growth or developing myself or looking at my pain, I'm just, I don't need to do that stuff. My life is good. Things are fine. I'm succeeding. I'm winning. My relationship is good. What tends to happen in general to people like that?

Well, you as a coach or a partner recognize that they are in resistance because nobody's life is So good until they've done a lot of work. Right? But you can tell when people are not ready and you can break your head waiting for them. You can show them pattern after pattern. I now in my 40s have gracefully learned to identify these people and release them from any expectation. You know, everyone has their own level of awareness. I call it where are they on the continuum of consciousness? So just because you change, don't expect you going home and your partner changing.

It's not gonna happen.

It's not by osmosis.

So how does this, I mean there's a lot of married couples in the world that have two, three kids, they've been married 10, 15 years, and you'll see it where the woman, it tends to typically be the woman I feel like, is starting to grow and evolve emotionally, being more emotionally conscious, and I'm generalizing this where the man is more resistant. Again, generalization. What should the woman do there? If the man is maybe 20% behind and then 40% behind, but she loves him, she wants to keep it together, she wants to be married to this person, does she just accept the behavior and live with it and do the best she can and find her relationships elsewhere? How does a woman in that position.

Where it's not horrible, yeah, it's at 80%, 70%?

Yeah, it's maybe it's like, half the time he's conscious, half the time he's not. What does a woman do there?

Yeah, it's really hard. You know, I can tell you the second or third question in every seminar I do is, what do I do? My partner is not doing the work. It is the second to third question, if not the first, yes. So women, you're right, take the lead because we are already tuning in. We get our menstrual cycle. We are connected to our bodies. We have breast We're feeding our children, we're raising. We're in the world of emotional connectivity anyway. We are the connectors.

You're communicating with other women about challenges, shame, hurt. Whereas men typically tend to not say those things.

You're in the outside world achieving, you know, and you've made it a mechanistic, hierarchical, dogmatic world. We're in the world of feelings and raising children and they keep us close to our heart. So now the woman is growing and it's not terrible. Then she has to kind of compromise. Yeah, she fills her bucket through other means. This is most women are doing this. Yeah, she's just decided, okay, he is what he is. He's good enough. She's good. It could be a same-sex relationship. The partner is good enough. So if you're willing to be with good enough, good enough is good enough. Then if it's really abusive, that's when she's in a pickle. Yeah. And that's why she needs her sisters to support her and be there for shelter and protection. and other men. And then when it's, when it's, you know, if the other person is just not growing, right? So one is abuse, that's direct. You get to know what to do. One is 50-50, that's hard. But if the other person is just not changing, then the woman has to make a pivotal decision. How important is growth and consciousness for me? And then she has to follow her own governance and her lead. And that's really hard for women to do, but she needs to honor growth. Relationships should be growth inducing, growth fulfilling, growth focused, growth destined. If both are not working on growth, then you can be good friends. Right. Right? See them once a month. And certainly if they're taking away from you, if they're constricting you, You know, in our 40s and 50s, we realize we don't need that anymore. We are worthy.

You're like, I don't need this.

Yeah, I don't need this. But, you know, till then we do. And we've already had five children and, you know, a lifetime with this person. But it's okay to say, Now I'm ready for the next chapter of my life. To be brave to say, It's okay. I can do this. Change is not easy because it brings such a fear of rejection and abandonment. But we, it's okay, it's okay. Seasons change, the tide changes, the moon and the sun go up and down, it rises and sets.

People come and go, people are born, people die.

Yeah, we were young ones, we're older, so change is inevitable as we know, right? Nothing is permanent, neither should our relationships be.

What are the three things, or what are the three reasons that you would say most relationships fail? What three things? They're not growth minded or...

Right, they haven't really shown that. So not growth focused. So both don't enter the relationship with a pledge that I'm not committing to you. I'm committing to growth.

Ooh.

Right, that's interesting. That's what the ring exchange ceremony should be.

Really?

Yeah, I am committing that you grow and I'm going to help your growth. And the minute I don't help your growth, you can give me back this ring. Right? Now wouldn't that be beautiful? That's freedom. Yeah.

Not, you can not grow for the rest of your life and I have to be with you forever. Sickness and to death do us part, right?

It's death of the ego. You can abuse me, you can emotionally.

Abuse me, physically abuse me, and I'm gonna stay.

Stay with you. It should be till death of the ego. And if then we wanna stay, great, right? That's the ego is gonna die. So it should be growth focused and then I think both need to do their own inner healing and show up as their true self. And also, and the last thing, I think the reason why relationships fail is because we are looking for mommy and daddy.

Oh man, what happens when we look for mom or dad?

Well, it's not if we look, we are looking for mom and dad. We place a great burden on the other person. to fulfill that role.

And your partner is not your mom or your dad, they're your partner. And they're just a fallible, bumbling human.

Being with their own demons. So they're not psychic, they're not dad, and they're not your mom. You know how many times in my relationships I've said, I'm not the mother. I am not the mother, you know. But we women want to be the mother, so that's our little trap. And then- Want to be the mom to the partner? Yes, and that's the worst thing we can do. Why do women want to do that? We have a savior mentality and we're like, it's our nature to nurture. So we want to save everyone. It is the most damaging thing we can do to our partners because we don't let the males in our life grow because we are like, we want to be everyone's mother. That's our issue. That's our sickness. We want to please and nurture and save. You know, we want to be the mother in the ego, but that's the most dysfunctional thing for us and them.

But then the romance is, but I want to have a rescuer, someone who saves me.

Exactly. So then the woman wants to have daddy and and the savior, and we're talking stereotypical relationships, okay? It also applies for same gender.

Of course, really.

Yeah. Same thing. In different ways, I think in different ways, we put expectations that the other can heal us and fix us and make it all okay. Because inside we're all five-year-olds. So when the person who's being treated as mom and dad realizes that they're being put in the mom or dad role, That takes a lot of courage because you don't want to hurt the other person but you've got to say, like I said many times, I think you think I'm some long lost dad or long lost mom and it's hurting our relationship. So let's go to therapy right now because we've got to break this. I am not who you think I am. And you know projection is so powerful, they don't see you. they see the other. In so many moments of my life, I used to move because I was like, see, you're not even looking at me. You're seeing your mother or your father.

Or would you want me to be?

Yeah, I could tell, you know, I could. You're not seeing me. It's a projection. So at first, I liked the projection because I was in my false self and I wanted to be the rescuer.

And you were.

I was happy.

Then you were worthy of helping someone.

And you thought. And I You know, the other person plays that role too. I'll rescue. I'll be a people pleaser, right? You were a people pleaser. So now you're happy that somebody's treating you like daddy or mommy. You're like, I want to be a people pleaser. Then you begin to realize after two years that we are both playing these roles. I'm faking it by pretending I can rescue you, and you're faking it as if you're in love with me. You want daddy or mommy.

But both people don't even know they're faking it. This has been my life for a long time.

So then you entered the fight and the fight is the same fight. What happens after fight number 200?

You did this, no, you did this.

And no one's hearing each other by the way. No one. So after fight number 232, you gotta have some therapy.

You're like, okay, we're in the same cycle. We've tried this, we've tried that, nothing's working.

Then you gotta take yourself for some professional care because you are enacting some serious old wounds that are eating you up. You have to treat it as a physical illness.

You know what I think is fascinating from an athlete's point of view? I know that in order to be a great athlete or to excel at.

Some sport, you go to a coach.

I need a coach. Yes. You can't do it on your own. Yes. There's not any world champion that's like, no one ever coached me. I did this on my own for 20 years to get here. I had no help, no mentor.

You had a team.

You had a team and a coach. I don't understand.

Why we don't do it for-- In relationships. Because we have great shame and stereotypes against airing our dirty laundry. This is the total ridiculous lunacy. Where you need it the most, you don't get professional help. What about parents? There's no training. There's no-- They don't teach you how.

To be in a relationship. Just the model of what didn't work.

What didn't work. so parents don't have any license certificate passing grade, couples don't have any help and you need help. So in spiritual traditions, they do talk about needing a teacher, right? Every Eastern spiritual tradition has the guru and now the guru has been blasphemed. So let's not talk about the guru, but has the teacher, meaning you need somebody to teach you this who's older and wiser and same for relationships. We should have You have to go to a therapist. There's no doubt about it. Every relationship should be in therapy, whether you are at the brink of the end or trying to get better. I always think it'd be interesting for.

People to start a relationship in therapy. Absolutely, they should. And say, let's, okay, we're gonna start dating and be exclusive, whatever it looks like. Let's get into therapy now, six months in, three months in.

It's coming, the inner child is coming.

In two years it's gonna happen.

We might as well go here now and get through it. And let the therapist tell you if you can even manage.

And save us some time.

Yes, save you a lot of effort and heartache.

And I feel like you'll respect each other more if you get into it sooner saying we're both looking to grow. No one's resistant. We're both here revealing, open.

Amazing. I'm messed up. You're probably messed up. I like you're messed up. Let's go to therapy. No harm, no shame. But people will get all upset because They're in their ego. They're like, I don't have any problems.

Oh my God. That was probably me my whole life. It was about eight years ago. So I can understand. But what do most people gain when they have a coach or a therapist in their relationships? What is the thing they get out of that the most?

Oh my God. They gain awareness of their pattern and they get to see how it's happening in real time. I show my people, boom, there it was. Two hours before you said this, here's your pattern again. So they can catch the dysfunction and disrupt the patterns in real time. So they save themselves a lot of years of bull, you know?

How do we learn to embrace the truth about ourselves even if we're scared? Whether it be a pain or shame or whatever, how do we learn to actually embrace it? Because that's what your book's a lot about.

We have to have greater fear for what will happen if we don't. It will eat us up and break us down.

And this is why the unvoluntary is probably the easiest way. It's when you hit rock bottom or when something tragic happens or a near-death experience or a divorce or breakup or bankruptcy. When that happens, it forces you to look at the pain.

Yes.

You have no choice anymore.

Yes, thank goodness.

I don't hope that on anyone. I hope we can all like, be consciously aware and voluntarily going into the growth. But unfortunately for probably, I don't know, 90 plus percent of us, we've got to go through something.

But I will tell you, you know, once you commit to this path and break free from the cultural lies and the tethers of the institutions and people and what people will say and living for others, you do reach a place of great lightness of being. You know, I never thought I would experience this lightness.

Really? What do you mean by lightness? Like freeness, light energy?

Yeah, because finally, when your worth is not tied to anyone else's opinion and it's all your own, you own every day. Your child doesn't define you, the mirror doesn't define you, the interview doesn't define you, the ratings doesn't define you. Sure, we'd all like it all to work in our favor, but it doesn't define you. You reach a place of healthy distance and space, and you begin to flourish. Like you feed yourself, and that's a beautiful feeling.

What should define us?

Should. What should define us is the awareness that we are only interconnected beings. There is no permanence. This is all an illusion. If we can keep, this is what I keep in my mind. It's all cause and effect. Whatever I'm seeing right now is through eons of cause and effect. We're interconnected. So there's a we are, like what matters to me matters to you. If I hurt you, I hurt me. And everything is impermanent. you know, there's only the present. So these are the things I live by, and that's my, that's what I chase.

Yeah. You know, what do you think is going to be the next break down in your life? Whether it be five years, 10 years, 20 years, where you have a new awakening? What's that thing, the next level of ego death that you think you'll need to go through?

Yeah.

But you haven't yet.

Yeah, I think, you know, the physical death of, say, you know, a really close, like, I only have a few.

But- you- haven't experienced that yet?

I haven't experienced that. So I can't claim to say I'm gonna be fine and I'm not gonna go through some other epiphany shock. But in terms of the material world, the physical world, as I see it right now, in terms of house, relationships, money, I think those I have released. I don't identify with those.

What was the thing you held onto the longest?

The idea of being the perfect girl and keeping my family together. I couldn't let that go.

It was very hard. When did you, how many years did you stay in that space when you knew you needed to let it go, but you kept holding onto it?

Yeah, I would say, I used to convince myself and it was so worth it and it was so important to me that I didn't even know I was resisting or fighting a conflict. But the last two years was when.

I... You knew, but you were holding on.

It was so painful to let go of what you've been so attached to, you know, and to release it and to say that it was for that moment and it was perfect and no regret and no blame. Come to wholeness, you know? Yeah, it was very powerful.

Is attachment one of the roots of suffering and pain or is it something else around suffering?

Well, why do we attach? So we have to understand what attachment means. Attachment means that we are believing we are that.

Give me an example.

I am the wife. I am the mother. I am the achiever. I am the role.

That identity.

The identity. And in essence, we are interconnected cause and effect, there is no solid I. So the I am doesn't exist. It's a we are. And the I am only exists in the energetic, not in the ego. So when we attach to something that is outside of us, we are now going to suffer because that is not going to last. Nothing lasts. Everything dies. So fame comes and goes, beauty comes and goes, youth comes and goes, achievement. So you have now claimed that as you, and you don't know who you are without that. So that's why you will suffer. So when you drop that and you discover who you are, something more cosmic, more spacious, more liberated, now you don't need these things.

To feel worthy or enough or-- Significant. Interesting. do you think we're more driven by significance or safety? Like, do we want to be more significant and acknowledged?

Yeah.

Or is it, do we just want to feel safe? Yeah. Or do they, the significance bring us more safety?

No, I think, you know, it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Safety, trust. Mistrust is the primal core foundation. And when we didn't get that as children, we're shattered. If we're looking for safety, we're in trouble.

Really?

Yeah, because we're not gonna find safety anywhere.

Where do we find it?

It doesn't exist. It was only to be found in that primal bond with the earliest caregiver as an infant. As an adult, it's an eternally unpredictable, unsafe world. Therefore, when you don't have that primal need met, the world is forever threatening to you and everyone's an enemy. Every moment is a disaster. You know those people like that?

That's probably me for a long time in my life.

Because you were in disaster preparedness mode your whole life.

Yeah, I left home when I was 13.

Yeah.

Because I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel safe. I mean, I know my parents loved me and I know they were there for me.

But you couldn't count on them.

It was just, you didn't know when there was an argument that was gonna break out or a fight or an unsafe feeling. And I was the youngest of four. My siblings were off and they were crazy in their own way. They've all evolved and transcended that, but I was like, get me out of here. Like subconsciously, I begged them to send me away at 13. Usually kids are sent away for being bad or whatever. And I was like, no, please send me away. Not because of, I didn't say because I wasn't safe.

Right.

But I was just like, I want--.

You know, that's a sign. When a kid wants to bolt too early, we know that the home is not conducive and it knows, the kid knows. So significance is a higher order need. You know, after your needs for safety and trust are met, now you can go up the ladder and you're like, oh, now I can achieve. Now I can, you know, but first the infant has to, Walk. Right. That's safety. That's trust.

Yeah, I wanted safety and then I was driven to succeed in significance for so many years.

Right. To cope with never being helpless ever again.

Never being seen or never being helped or never feeling worthy or enough or whatever it was.

And you were looking for significance.

And when I got it, I still didn't feel enough.

No, you never will.

For years.

The bottom is unsafe. This is empty.

So, if someone is listening or watching right now has realized they're having the awakening, oh, I never felt safe and I still don't feel safe and I'm driven by significance to feel seen or loved or whatever I need, what should be the steps they take to create safety in their life and not need to feel significant by accomplishments?

Yeah, imagine if that person comes to that point to go, oh my goodness, I've been ruled by my need to to be safe and significant. Listen, this is a powerhouse moment. This is an epiphany, right? Like you had. Now they have to take themselves straight to a therapist or a coach.

Is there any other way besides therapy?

No, sorry, because you have to uncover the patterns. Now meditation is huge. You know, I've been meditating since I was 21. It is huge. Meditation gave me wisdom to understand the cravings of the ego.

Right.

So that's why I teach East Meets West Psychology and Spirituality because both together was beautiful in my life.

Yeah.

But I needed both.

You needed meditation, endless and coaching or therapy. Okay, so that's the next step. Don't try to trust yourself and figure it out. Allow someone to support you and coach you through it.

Yes, just like an athlete would to become his best self or her best self.

That's true. We wouldn't just go and say, I want to win the World Series and do it on our own.

We wouldn't write a book without an editor.

That's true.

What would we do? We wouldn't learn the piano without a teacher. We wouldn't go to school without teachers. So why, when it comes to inner work, we don't do it because the very thing that blocks us from doing inner work is the very thing that blocks us from thinking we need to do inner work to go and get help. It's the ego that I'm perfect. Everyone thinks they're perfect, yet everyone I have met has been broken in such a significant way, Louis, not just like a little bit broken, like shards, lambasted, torn apart, bomb blast in their childhood. I've rarely met individuals who were raised by conscious parents. I can maybe say a few.

You wrote the book on conscious parenting. Do you feel like you were a conscious parent to your child?

No, I was not. I was not. I really wasn't. And, you know, but I'm trying not to have shame or guilt about it, but I really made, quote unquote, grave errors in terms of my own ego's needs for control and possession. I caught on pretty fast by the time she was three about what I was doing. and since then have been course correcting and teaching others. And the reason I could correct it fast is because I've been on this path. I've been meditating and I still messed up because no one prepared me for how that parental ego looks. I knew the ego in relationships, I knew the ego around food, around looks. I didn't know the ego around the parents. So now I've helped other parents to discover their parental ego. hopefully I've helped other parents not do what I did.

Even when you're researching this, teaching this, coaching others, it's still challenging for us to follow through on certain things. And we all know this.

I've never met this child before.

Do you have your own coach?

I have intermittently relied on coaches, but I take a lot of courses. I'm always doing my work. Every day, I don't let myself go.

Yeah.

I am on myself.

What does the work look like for you? What's a non-negotiable on a daily basis?

Like, just in terms of my life.

For your life, yeah.

Whether it be or... Non-negotiable now for me is ultimate alignment with my inner voice. So I don't say yes to things that are not aligned. I don't go for lunch. I don't eat things that are not aligned. I've become pretty...

When did you learn how to do that?

Over the last, you know, my radical awakening.

Last couple of years.

Last, yeah. I was inching forward and now I've just stepped into it. Like recently I just told someone, do not show me this person's photograph because it triggers a past issue with this person. I don't even want to see a photograph. So taking my self-care and my alignment in a really adult way and cleaning up my life so it really matches with who I authentically am, and I'm not serving anyone else's ego. I will not talk to people. I will not have someone on a chat if I'm not aligned. Everyone in my life is intentionally placed now and intentionally kept.

I'm glad you still reply to my texts. That's good.

You're still hanging on.

Hanging on by a thread. Okay, so you've gotten very clear to say yes and no to things that you either want to say yes to or not. but not doing them out of the need to please or because you don't want to hurt someone. That's an incredible gift. That's a skill that most people don't think have mastered.

Right. It can only come after Ardu is self-knowledge. You have to know who you are. So I've spent a lot of time figuring out who am I? You know, why am I here? What makes me the most joyous being in this one body that I got this time? Who knows if I'm gonna come back again? Now I'm here. How am I going to make this life the most liberated, abundant, buoyant life? It's up to me. I gotta create it. I gotta curate it. I got to plant the right seeds. So it's very intentional now. But I say no a lot, which I never used to do. Really? Yes.

You say yes to everyone.

I used to say yes. I used to say, I'm so sorry I can't say yes if I couldn't say yes, you know? Now I just ignore or I let it go. It has nothing to do with me.

What happens if someone's mad or hurt or frustrated or emails you back, I thought you were gonna say, yeah, how could you do this to me?

What do you do then? Right. So, you know, when it's a stranger, you know it's projection. Yes. And when it's a deeply held relationship, I will clean it up. I'll never do that to you or to somebody who I honor. Then I'm in a relationship. But if I'm not in a relationship, I've learned to let it go. They can project whatever they want, like on social media, how many people project. They can have a party, it's okay. They have a right. People have a right to project. When I was young, I didn't like when people projected. I thought they didn't have a right. Now I realize, oh, you can have your inner child and your inner child can dump all its crap on me. What am I going to do with it? Is the question.

What do you do with it now when someone's dumping on you or yelling at you or angry or disappointed? How could you, Dr. Schaeferi?

Right? If there's no in-road to their consciousness, you've got to walk away, you've got to disengage. Right? But in the past, I used to get upset that they used to dump. Now I say, oh, here's another dump. Now I got, I finally in my last decade understood, of course they're going to dump because they're an inner child. I used to protest that, I used to resist it, I used to get angry with it. How can you be an inner child? Now I've accepted, how can they not be an inner child? Now I see it everywhere and I'm very accepting, but I get to decide if I stay, if I accept or I leave.

Yeah, a coach told me once, like when someone's throwing their anger or projections onto you, they're trying to give you a gift of trash and you can either receive and take the gift or say, no thanks, like.

That's your choice.

Or just pass it along.

Right, but don't be upset with them that they're trashing on you. They have a right, you can walk away. But that feels horrible, especially for women, because we've been trained to be trash receptacles, the garbage bin. Please give me your trash. Right? Now, I empower women to go, oh, they can give you their trash. Don't blame them. Don't expect them to be different, because we're always begging the other. Please be different.

But what if we're like, okay, you know what? That's not the environment I want. I don't want to be a place where someone dumps trash, even if I take it or not.

I just don't want that environment. After some time, that's why I said, if there's no inroad, you gotta walk away.

Or you gotta accept it and say, this is gonna be my life. I can't change them.

Maybe they'll buy you fancy shoes or cook you some nice food, at least. Something.

Can you expect someone to change or can you change someone else?

You can try to become your best self and hope that that will leak onto them and they will absorb your love, your dignity, your esteem, but don't expect it and don't hold your breath. And allow that person to not change. Do you know how many relationships we've had where we're so upset with the other person because we tried so hard. We did all the right things and the other person couldn't heal. That's so hard for us because we tried so hard, right? And that's where we're getting into victim Consciousness, because it's okay. the other person doesn't have to change just because we're stellar. You know? We think it's a quid pro quo, I'm amazing, can you please see I'm amazing and heal? It's not connected. And that's so hard in a relationship to go, I'm doing my best, I can't fill this void, it's beyond my needs, I am retiring from this position. You know?

Does that mean I'm retiring from the relationship as well?

Well, eventually. Now we have to see, yeah. I'm letting go of the role. At least the role. I can't fix you. I'm trying really hard. I adore you. I love you. I see your pain, but I can't fix you. And when you retire from the role, and if you were mainly that role, you may retire from the relationship because there's nothing else you were doing except trying to fix. It starts differently. Never go with how it starts. It's after the Ego starts breaking down and the true self comes out. The wounded self comes out, not the authentic self.

I think everyone should get the book A Radical Awakening: Turn Pain Into Power, Embrace youe Truth, and Live Free by the great Dr. Shefali. Get a few copies for your friends as well. This is really inspiring. And I think a lot of us have never learned how to turn our pain into something more peaceful and powerful. For me, I lived in pain internally most of my life without others really knowing about it. And I was the one suffering until I learned how to turn pain into healing into peace. And it's a process. And I'm sure I'm gonna have to learn it many more times in other areas of my life, but it's definitely a process. So I want people to get your book. You've got a lot of great lessons, practices, examples, stories to support them in this journey. because most people may not want to get a therapist right away. So get this book if you don't get a therapist right away and go through it. I have a couple final questions for you before I ask them. Where can we follow you online or support you in any other way?

So they can just go to drshefali.com, I'm doing a course actually on the book so they can do the course with me and just find me there or on social media.

What's your favorite place on social media? Are you on Instagram, Facebook? Facebook.

I think I'm older generation.

More on Facebook. So crack, I just read Cracking the Matrix. Go check her out on Facebook. A lot of powerful stuff in here. Make sure you guys dive in here. Everything in here is really inspiring. Check it out. Couple final questions for you. What are you most proud of that most people don't know about you?

I don't know whether I'm proud, Louis, but maybe something that people don't know about me is that I'm really, like, very quiet. I know it's like, because I chat all the time, but simple and just. I like to be in my pajamas. I'm just, you know, chill, relax. Very quiet and basic. I'm just, like, a very basic girl, you know? And I think people think of women like me that we must be. big personalities at home. My daughter completely dominates me. I get dominated, yes, by my daughter.

You are just like, I am relaxing and she is all over the place.

She is a very quiet personality at home, yeah.

Okay, that is cool. This is a question I think I asked you last time, but I am curious your response this time. It is called the three truths question. I ask everyone at the end. So imagine it is your last day on earth, many years away, and you have accomplished everything you want to accomplish. you've written many more books or you've created the life you want to create. But for whatever reason, you got to take all of your work with you, all of your written work, this interview, all of your content. No one has access to what you've shared in the past. But you have a piece of paper and a pen, and you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. Three things you've learned, this is all we would have to remember your information by, your message to the world. I call it three truths.

Nice.

What would be your three truths?

Wow. I think number one would be wake up to the lies of the matrix and don't sell your soul to culture's lies. It's a lie. Number two, it's your destiny to be your authentic self and to live free. So claim it. Don't believe that giving it up is a virtue.

Ooh.

Yeah. And I think the third one would be, you know, why I named my daughter Maya. It's just all of this is an illusion and it's so insignificant in the cosmic scheme of things. Your ego makes things significant, but, you know, the freedom comes when you realize you're not that significant. Mm, you know, you're not. There's freedom in that for me. Yeah.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Dr. Schaffrath, before I ask the final question for constantly evolving yourself, for constantly growing, shedding, and creating information for us to awaken ourselves and to heal our pain and to learn how to parent our inner child, all things that no one's ever been taught how to do. A lot of people haven't been taught how to do. so I acknowledge you for showing up. I know this is challenging work and the fact that you are in service to want to support and help people in their healing journey is such a gift. So I acknowledge you in being that gift to so many people. I appreciate you and your friendship. So glad I've made the texting communication still. You haven't cut me out of your life yet. I'm so happy. And my final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Daring to be real and authentic. That's greatness for me.

Dr. Shafali, appreciate you. Thank you, love. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Appreciate it. If you want to learn how to make yourself more desirable in relationships, then check out this powerful interview with relationship therapist, Esther Perel.

The love stories, per se, are not life stories. There's some things that you don't need in order to have a beautiful love story with someone.