This Is Why Your Relationship WON'T LAST! | Lewis Howes

Everybody wants to be loved in a different way and it may change over time. So you're constantly evolving and a part of your job as a good partner is to find out.

What about the subtle red flags that you maybe you saw over time but you didn't take action on and you realized, oh, that was actually a much bigger flag than, but it was subtle. Like I let it kind of slip. What are those subtle red flags that people should be looking out for?

If you tell me you're a vegan.

And you eat meat.

And I see you on Snapchat eating some wings. You may think that's a small lie. Interesting. But what does it say about that person? It's saying that for some reason they feel that they need to, they can't be their true selves with you.

Interesting.

They're trying to project someone who they think may impress you and it's not really who they are. So when you see those subtle things that you don't understand. Well, why didn't this person just be true and honest with me about this? This was a small thing. How do you think they're going to handle the big things? So I actually look at those little things. What kind of digital footprint are people leaving online?

Yeah.

On their social media. What do they think is funny? I remember once Someone wanted to set me up on a blind date with an actor here in LA and I looked at him, I'm sure he had no shortage of women, lots of opportunities.

Opportunities, yeah.

To date him. And he'd reached out to a person who he knew was a mutual friend and said, you know, I'd like to meet Faith, would you set me up with her? Well, I went and looked on his social media. And he had a joke that he put on his social media that I thought was really crude and that I didn't think was funny, but he thought it was funny. But in that moment, I said, I'm not gonna go out on a date with him. Some people may think, wow, you didn't even give him a chance. You didn't even, again, I know myself now. I know myself and I know that when I date somebody, even what they put out publicly on their social media, that's a reflection of me. That's a reflection of our relationship. relationship. That's reflection of all those things. You may think that joke was small, but to me it represented a bigger picture of what I thought would be incompatibility.

How important is compatibility versus connection and chemistry? Of the three, connection, chemistry and compatibility, which one is most important in your mind?

You need all three. When I think about compatibility, I think about not just making a decision about where you are now in your life. Because over time, when you get into a relationship, as time goes on, people are going to change. When you lose a job or you get a new job, you have children, you don't have children, you go through certain stressful situations with your family, your health, All of these things in life, they continue to change us and shape us into who we are. So when I think about compatibility, I think about a person who is committed to a certain level of growth. You are not just going together in the future, you are growing together.

Ooh, yes.

And so that love has to be about being committed to the same commitment and a certain level of growth.

When someone wants to continue growing and developing themselves, when the other person doesn't want to, what happens in a relationship or a marriage when they're different there?

It's easy to fall in love, I think. I think it takes work to stay there. And so one example, I had a couple come into divorce court and the wife said, you know, initially, Our marriage was great, like most marriages, but over time, he started saying things to me that would really hurt my feelings. I gained weight. I gained 15, 20 pounds over the last couple of years, and he would comment on my weight. And we were initially committed to just building each other up. And even when we had criticism to share with each other, we were always constructive. And we always thought, How can I say this in the most loving way? And so she said, She continued to grow in that area But he didn't. And I turned to him and I said, so what happened? He said, well, I'm just speaking the truth. I said, Would you ever say to a stranger the things that you're saying to your wife? This is supposed to be your best friend. He worked in a restaurant. I said, Would you ever say those things to a patron in your restaurant? The things that you're saying to your wife? He said, I don't believe in divorce. We're Christians. We don't get divorced. I said, Really? What does God say about love? You're a Christian. What does God say about love? Love is kind. Love is patient. Love doesn't envy. Love certainly doesn't try to tear the other person down. So the commitment to that growth, it really shows up in the long term, in the longevity of the relationship. And if someone's not committed, Again, you have to protect your peace. I would never advise staying in a relationship where you are being emotionally abused and disrespected. Because I'm going to tell you what happens. It breaks my heart to see people come in and they've been in these relationships for so long where they have been repeatedly dishonored. You know why? Because over time, When people have been repeatedly disrespected and dishonored, it becomes normal to them. It becomes a part familiar. And they in turn start to think they've been dishonored so much that they are not indeed worthy of honor because they've been dishonored repeatedly. Pain will subside over in time after you leave if you do the work, but it will always be there if you stay in that type of situation.

What would you say are the main causes of divorce then? Is it cheating, is it disrespect, is it a lack of growth, is it foul play, emotional abuse? What are the main causes you see?

People not being committed to the same commitment. And that is the growth, the love, the respect. Finding out how your partner wants to be loved, because everybody wants to be loved in a different way and it may change over time. So you're constantly evolving and a part of your job as a good partner is to find out how does this person want to be loved? If you stop doing all of those things, it's like if you're, if you maintain and you take care of your yard, what are the things you do to take care of your yard? You have to mow the lawn, fertilize it, take care of the grass, fertilize it, pull out the weeds, all of those things to keep the yard looking great, to keep it growing. There are going to be seasons. There are going to be seasons. It may be dry one season. It may, it may be a rainy season. You're going to go through the storms, but just like in life, the seasons are going to change. But what are you doing to maintain throughout all of those things? Being committed to doing the work to maintain the relationship throughout the seasons is what speaks to success. And I see the opposite end of that. Because at no point can you just think that being on autopilot It's going to keep you moving forward.

Right.

There's a book obviously called the, I think it's the five love languages.

Yes, I love that book.

And I think it's such a powerful place to even just have a conversation with a partner in when you're dating and to take the love language test to see, does this person, do I like giving love in the way this person likes receiving love? I did this test with my, my girlfriend and I did it at the same time. I wish I would have done this in previous relationships. this isn't the end all be all. This isn't like if you have this in a perfect alignment, your relationship is going to work out. But I think it's a great indicator of minimizing stress when you learn these things. And I realize that we have the exact same order of how we like to receive love based on the test we took. So we both like receiving love the same way, which means we both like giving love in the same way. Whereas in previous relationships, I didn't ask them, how do you really like to receive love? And they didn't ask me. We both didn't really do the test and go through that process. And over time, I remember feeling like, oh, they really like when I do certain things that I'm not comfortable doing, or it's not my natural go-to. It's more of a strain and it's harder for me to think of and remember to do certain things, and vice versa. They didn't like doing certain things that I like to be, I like being touched and told nice things. they wanted to keep their hands to themselves, whatever it was. And I was like, man, just like if people couldn't get in alignment on that, at least in a couple areas, I think it would make it much smoother in the process. And there's a lot of different things out there that people can do about that. But how important is that, do you think? Figuring out the love language of your partner before you get married.

It's a part of the service.

Yeah.

That comes with being in a relationship and being in a marriage. Big part of marriage is service.

Yes.

And sacrifice. And a part of the service is how am I going to serve my partner? I remember when my husband and I went through our premarital counseling, and we did pre-engagement counseling, even.

So before you got engaged, you did counseling?

Yes.

To see, is it worth getting engaged? And then when you're engaged, you got counseling to see, like, let's see.

Absolutely. See, that's how serious I was about it.

I remember before my current girlfriend, I remember thinking to myself, gosh, I would love to get into a relationship and start therapy, like when everything's good. And see, are we in alignment and like diffuse some of the things that could be challenges in the future? And we've been doing that in our own way. Like she's got her own therapist. I've got mine and we're starting to do stuff together. And it's uncomfortable to have certain conversations, but it's so freeing at the same time. So anyways, you did this because you were so serious about it. And what did you learn about doing counseling, pre-engagement, engagement before marriage as well.

Well, I thought if I get engaged and then I go to premarital counseling, I've already made the decision to get married.

Yes.

So I wanted to know, because remember, you're talking about, I talked about the fear of the unknown. So I wanted to minimize the unknown.

Yes.

So I thought, I have all these questions and I think I'm asking the right questions but I want to know is there something that I'm not asking? Is there another area that we need to explore? Is there something else we need to talk about before we got engaged because we were talking about at that point getting married. You know so often when people get engaged and they announce it and they share with the world and the invitations are going out and then oh wait wait we need to do our premarital counseling and you may find out something that you don't like and Are you gonna-- oh, whoopsie.

Too late.

What are you gonna do?

A lot of people feel the pressure. I've heard so many stories of people who got divorced. I'm sure you've heard this too. Where the woman or the man said, I knew on my wedding day this wasn't the right fit.

It wasn't the right fit.

Have you heard that before? Yes, they knew. And they still go through with it.

I'm like, why do you put yourself through this?

They don't wanna be embarrassed. But then two, five years later, You went through just pain and sadness and you settled for something that wasn't the right thing. People think.

And I'm not judging people here because.

I've made a ton of my own mistakes.

We've all made those mistakes. We have to learn the hard way. Some people, you know, you have to learn the hard way and all opportunities for you to grow. But you can minimize that based on.

Minimize it. And maybe you go through all the premarital counseling and the pre-engagement and you still doesn't work out for whatever reason, but at least you hopefully You did your due diligence. Yes.

You did your due diligence so you can go in with a little more confidence because of your due diligence.

And if something would have came up in these conversations that you're like, that's completely out of alignment with what I want, you could have figured out, is there a solution to this? If not, then maybe you wouldn't have gotten married.

There are two things about what you just said, which is great, because some people think that by getting married, it's going to change something or change a person or things will be different.

It's not, yeah.

The only thing a wedding will change is maybe your last name. Right. Weddings will break the bank, but they will not break bad habits.

That's true.

Right.

So you can expect when you get married, you've won the pie-eating contest. What is the prize for winning the pie-eating contest? More pie. You've won this person. What is the prize?

You get more of them.

So you better be happy with your choice.

Yeah, and you can't change someone.

Not because of pressure. Yeah, or nagging, or crying, or any of those things. It has to be something Within. You come from within.

Each person has to want to change. And I really don't think you can date or marry based on potential, personally. And I hear a lot of women saying, well, he's got so much potential. He could become this man, but then he never becomes it.

That's why I wrote this book. That's why I wrote that book.

So you date or marry based on potential, but then you're really settling because who you're dating and who you're marrying is who they are. Maybe they grow into something greater based on what they want, but you can't expect them to be on a timeline you want.

You are dating their reality, you want to marry their potential. Those two things should be aligned.

Right.

We went to pre-engagement counseling because I wanted to make sure that we were asking each other the right questions. And we were getting to know each other the best we possibly could before even making the decision to get married.

To get engaged. And then you had time to ask more questions. Exactly. So what were the three conversations or questions that were the most challenging for you to have the courage to talk about or just navigate? What were the three most uncomfortable conversations in pre-engagement counseling.

How have you healed from your past?

Gosh, healing is so key. It's so key. Okay.

Because we both had past relationships.

Yes.

They didn't work out for one reason or another. And I think we both wanted to know if there were going to be triggers that would bring out something from the past in our current relationship. There's always going to be residue.

Right.

We're human.

So people come in because they're in pain. and they want the pain to go away.

Yeah.

And maybe they've tried something else that didn't work and you're like, talk medicine, right? Without having to take a pill, how can I relieve this pain, this suffering, this problem? But the problem, what I'm hearing you say, is never about another person, it's always with them.

Well, not always. I think that relationally, a lot of people don't realize that even if the other person is problematic, so right, when I was training, one of my clinical supervisors once said, Before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes.

Right.

Right? So, you know, it's not like there aren't problematic people out there. Their environment. Right, but then what is your response to that? And I think that people don't realize how much agency they have. They don't realize that they can choose their response to their circumstances. They can choose their response to the people around them. And I'm not saying that there aren't incredibly daunting circumstances right now in the world.

For example.

But then how do you respond? What are you going to do about it? And I think that's where people get stuck.

And you talk, I love your TED Talk, because you talk about rewriting your story from the past. And I believe that we hold onto our stories, and we probably continue to write them in a more powerful way that keeps us trapped or traumatized. Is that fair to say that something happens in our past, we hold onto the story daily, or whenever we're triggered, And it amplifies the story in our minds.

Well, it does. And the problem is that often whatever that version of the story is, we carry with us and we never revise it. And so you create a story when you're younger, for example, about something that happened in your life. And then as an adult, you've never looked at that story through the adult lens. You're still looking at it through the childhood lens. And so that's why I say that when people come in that we're all unreliable narrators.

Yes.

That we all tell a story through, you know, this lens. And the thing is these are usually faulty narratives. So there's a broader version of the story that people haven't looked at. And so I feel like in a lot of ways what I do as a therapist is I act as an editor and have, of course, a writing background. And so I help people to revise their stories. 'Cause the reason they can't move forward in the story, the reason they can't get to the next chapter, is because of something is wrong with the story. They are stuck. And so it's almost like I'm helping them with writer's block.

I mean, for me, life is an interpretation.

Yes.

Right? There's an instance that happens and we can interpret it as good or bad, or we can interpret it as this is a neutral event and I'm gonna make the most of this. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, absolutely. And also how we attribute other people's parts of the story, right? So who are the villains and the heroes in the story? You know, I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. And idiot compassion is what our friends do. They back up our story no matter what. We say, this happened. This happened with my boss. This happened with my partner. This happened with my parent, right? This happened with my best friend. And we say, yeah, that was terrible. Screw them. They're a jerk. You know, that's awful. You're right. They're wrong. Don't let anyone treat you that way. That's what we do. And if you listen to your friends you start to realize over time that even though the situation and the names might be different, the kind of story they're telling is similar. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't say that. That's idiot compassion.

Idiot compassion is where we as friends say, yeah, you're the best person in the world. This person's horrible. Leave them or let them go. Forget about them. They're so bad at what they did. There's always two sides to every story.

Well, right. And so the value of therapy is that we offer wise compassion. We hold up a mirror to you and help you to see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And that's where the other version of the story comes in.

So how do we have wise compassion for our friends when they're like, She cheated on me. He left me. They had an affair.

Whatever.

Yeah. How do we Change our story and also show compassion that we're there for a friend Not making when they're in a vulnerable place not making the other person right or wrong yeah, being there for them and also kind of giving them some tough love I guess I.

Wouldn'T call it tough love. I would just call it reality love love it's love it's much more loving to be truthful in a compassionate way so I sometimes call them compassionate truth bombs yeah, because we need to hear them and But how do we do it? It has to do with timing and dosage. So the timing is when they're really raw, when something just happened. Now's not the time to say, this has happened with your last three boyfriends.

Maybe you're the problem here.

Have you noticed that going through people's phones is not working well for you? We are not gonna say that maybe in that moment. So that's the timing. And then the dosage is how much are you going to say in a particular moment and in a particular conversation? It doesn't all have to happen in one conversation. So I think that that has to do with being a good listener. And a lot of us don't know how to listen. And I think it's really helpful. I see a lot of couples in my practice too. And if you can say to the person when they come to you with something, how can I be helpful in this conversation right now? I know you're really hurting. Do you want to just vent? Do you want a hug? Do you want me to help problem solve with you? Do you want my honest opinion? Or do you want me to hold off and we can have that conversation another time? Let them tell you what they want so you can give them something that is helpful to them in that moment and then in another conversation, you might be able to offer them something more.

When they're not completely raw or broken. Yes. Hurt.

Yes.

So what is that specific question when anyone's coming to you with a challenge or a complaint or hurt? What's the question you should ask them?

How can I be helpful to you right now? I know you're really hurting.

What does that do for the person who's hurting when they hear that?

It helps them to reflect on, oh wait, what do I need?

Right?

Am I just gonna download all of this stuff and then I'm not gonna feel any different at the end? Or is there something else that I want right now? And maybe downloading it will make them feel different, just make them feel seen and understood and heard, which is important. Or maybe they want something else, but let them tell you. And I think the other thing is these three words that are really helpful when they're talking to you are tell me more. So instead of saying, when they say like, oh, here's what's going on, and we say, oh, well, we try to cheer them up. like, you know, here's what you can do. We try to fix it. We try to cheer them up. We try to make it seem like it's not so bad, whatever we do. Instead, just say, tell me more. We do this with our kids. I can say as a parent, we do this all the time, right? So your kid comes to you and says, you know, I'm really sad about this or I'm really worried about this. We say, oh, don't worry. No, it's not a problem. We say, oh, don't be sad. Right? Go have ice cream. Right, exactly. But the The thing is that then you get the message as a kid that like, oh wait, I'm not supposed to feel this. And really what it is is we get uncomfortable as parents with our kids' feelings.

Why is that?

Because we can't, we are uncomfortable with feelings. We grew up in a way where feelings were messy, feelings were uncomfortable, feelings were something that, you know, they were gonna be trouble.

Yeah.

As opposed to feelings.

Stop crying, stop crying.

Yes, as opposed to just, You know, feelings are actually a great thing. People say, oh, there are these negative feelings like sadness, anxiety, anger, whatever. Even envy. I always say, Feelings are like a compass. They tell us what direction to go in. So with envy, for example, I say, Follow your envy. It tells you what you want. If you are feeling envy, that's great because it says, what do I desire? It puts you in touch with your desire. What is it that I desire? And what steps can I take to get something like that? in my own life. If you're feeling sad, if you're feeling anxious, what is not working right now that you can look at if you stuff down that feeling, if you pretend it's not there, it just gets bigger and here's what happens. It doesn't go away. It comes out in too much food, alcohol, drugs, insomnia, a short temperedness, inability to function, distractibility, that mindless scrolling we all do through the internet. A colleague of mine said that the internet was like the most effective short-term non-prescription pain killer out there.

Wow.

And so what happens is your feelings are still there, but you're not dealing with them.

What happens when we never deal with our emotions or feelings?

Well, you first of all get sick. And I'm- Emotionally sick, emotionally sick, mentally sick. Emotionally sick, everything, right? So we have, just like we have a physical immune system, we have a psychological immune system. and we have to take care of our psychological immune system. So it's just like, you know, what do you do to keep healthy with your body? Like you're gonna eat right, you're gonna exercise, you know, you're gonna do all the things that you wanna do to take care of yourself, you're gonna get enough sleep. Those things also help your psychological immune system. They're not totally separate. The mind-body connection is profound. But at the same time, you know, are you going to be around people who don't nourish you? That's going to hurt your psychological immune system. That's going to make you sick. Are you going to stuff down your feelings? That's going to make you sick. And so how do we take care of ourselves? And part of it is instead of trying to numb out your feelings because numbness isn't the absence of feelings. Numbness is a state of being overwhelmed by too many feelings. And then not only do you not experience the feelings that you don't want to experience, but you don't experience the other feelings. You mute one feeling, you mute the others. You mute the pain, you mute the joy. So you're living in this state state where you don't actually get to feel the range of feelings that make us human.

What is that state called?

I was gonna say dead. I mean, I feel like you can be alive but not living. And that's what happens to people, is that they're alive, they're going through the motions, they wake up every day, but they're not really living their lives.

What's an assessment we could take for ourselves, if someone's listening or watching, to ask themselves, how alive or how dead they are. And if the people in their life closest are actually good for them or are hurting their psychological states. Is there a questionnaire we could take just off the cuff? Is there an assessment? Is there a few things we could ask ourselves?

Yeah, I mean, I think that it has to do with a sense of vitality, right? Which of course, like vitality, the word life is right in there. When you wake up in the morning, Are you excited about what you're doing? Is there meaning in what you're doing? Do you feel connected to how you're spending your days? Because at the end of your life, are you going to look back and say, what did I do that was meaningful? You know, in maybe you should talk to someone in my book, there's a woman that I treat, she's this young woman who goes on her honeymoon, she's newly married, she comes back, and she has cancer. And she says to me at one point, she says, why do we need a terminal diagnosis To have a wake up call. Why do we need a terminal diagnosis to live our lives with intention? Why do we need that to really pay attention? And I think that if we can keep the awareness of death sitting on one shoulder, and I don't mean in a morbid way or in a creepy way, it's not depressing, it's actually, again, going back to vitality, it helps us feel alive because life has 100% mortality rate and that's not for other people, we like to believe that. Right, and so the thing is that if we know that we have a limited time here, I think we would pay more attention to what we're actually doing every day.

Why is it so hard for people to pay attention?

Fear.

But they feel like they're stuck sometimes for years.

Yes.

It's like I stay stuck in a relationship that's, I know it's not right for me for years. I stay in a depressed state for years. I stay in a job that I hate for years. It's all based on fear.

Well, I think it is fear. You know, I think it's fear of uncertainty. This is going to sound strange, but change is really hard because we cling to something that's familiar to us. So even though we may know, oh, this would help me. This would be a good change for me. We don't do it because it's unfamiliar. And so if you grew up with a lot of chaos, if you grew up feeling sad all the time or anxious all the time, that feels like home to you. even if it's unpleasant or even miserable. She'll keep finding chaotic environments.

Right, recreating it.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, it was funny, 'cause my own therapist gave me this great analogy. He said to me, he said, you remind me of this cartoon, and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open, right? No bars. So basically, the prisoner is not in jail. And that's what so many of us are like. We're not in jail. We're trapped. We're not in jail, we can change, we can just walk around the bars. But why don't we? Because with freedom, the freedom to walk around the bars, comes responsibility. And if we're responsible for our own lives, that scares us. We feel like, oh, I don't know if I can do that, I don't know if I'm competent enough to do that. Or now I'm to blame if things don't go right.

I can't blame it on everything else. Is this one of the reasons why inmates after a long time of being in prison who get out go back into prison because they feel like they need to be back in that environment?

Or are there other reasons maybe? I think there are other reasons I think we don't give people the support when they come out. You know, the mental health issues that they needed to be treated for were never, you know, they never got that support. Then they come out and they're back in the same situation where they don't have that community support.

Why is it so hard for us to take responsibility for our own happiness?

I think that if you grew up in a household where you were seen and heard and understood, those are the people who do take responsibility for their own happiness. I think for people who felt like they were ripped off in their childhoods, there's a part of them that's still in a fight. There's a part of them that still wants that redo. And so it's kind of like they're not aware of this, but what they're saying is basically, I will not change mom and dad until you give me the things that I did not get in childhood.

So they'll go find a partner that emulates their environment from mom and dad and try to change them so they-.

Well, right, this is the irony of relationships. for those people who have not sort of worked through it. This is so common. And I think all of us have this peace in us, right? Because nobody had a perfect childhood. So what happens is people say, okay, when I'm an adult, I'm gonna pick a partner who really makes me feel nourished, who really gives me all those things that I did not get growing up. But what they don't realize is unconsciously they have this radar for the people who look very different from their parents on the street. surface. But then once they get into that relationship, it's kind of like, uh-oh, this feels familiar, right? And so what they did was their unconscious said when they were picking their partner, hey, you look familiar. Come closer. Even though consciously they thought, oh, you're totally different from my parents. This is going to work out great. But no, they have radar for that if they haven't worked out the stuff that's sort of their unfinished business. There's this saying, we marry our unfinished business. We actually do marry our unfinished business. So that is why it is so important as an adult to take responsibility and say, you know what? I am going to have to grieve this loss of what I didn't get. And I'm going to have to work through this and assess where I am as an adult so that I pick people and surround myself with people who are healthy for me.

What if you've chosen someone that you love deeply, but it's unconsciously your unfinished business? Is that the wrong person for you once you realize, oh, they're never gonna change or is that a point for us to reflect back and say, actually, I need to heal the past, accept this person for who they are and be willing to flow within this relationship?

Well, what happens is, so you married your unfinished business, but so did they. And so if you can both recognize that, if you realize, hey, wait, we have a lot of conflict in our relationship or we're really avoidant in our relationship, or we don't feel connected in the way we want to feel connected. That's a great opportunity for both of you to work out your unfinished business.

To heal together.

To heal together, right.

And so that relationship could thrive.

If you both are willing to look in the mirror at yourselves and do the work, yes, that could be a really beautiful relationship. And it could be very healing for both of you, in fact.

It could potentially be the strongest bond ever if you both were able to go through that. Yeah. But if you're unwilling to go through that, then what?

You're gonna be in- Both people have to be willing. Right, well both people have to be willing. I mean, that's the thing. So it's like you may wake up one day and say, oh wait a minute, I have all this unfinished business and then your partner says, yeah, it's all you, you're the problem in the relationship. You know, it's kind of like in couples therapy so often I'll see something like, someone will say, you never listen to me.

And I'll say, how well do you listen to them?

Right. Right, it's always like- if you're just yelling at someone all day, they're gonna wanna listen to you.

Right.

Right, so there's this dance that we do in relationship. And what happens is people are doing these dance steps and people become very, they become very ingrained. It's like, oh, here we go. You can script out people's arguments. You know exactly what they're gonna look like.

It starts with one thing and then it goes back into many different things.

Where you're like, oh, okay. And you know exactly how it's gonna go and who's gonna feel what and who's gonna accuse the other person of what. And that's the dance. And so if one person changes their dance steps, the other person either is going to fall flat on the dance floor or they're going to have to change their steps too if they want to keep dancing.

What is the biggest problem that you see today that women face that are holding them back from staying in a healthy relationship? And what's the biggest problem that men are faced with and them being happy with their partner? They're in a relationship.

So, I always talk about healing and I do believe that healing is the number one biggest issue. But I want to take a different angle here. I think that another huge issue that both men and women are facing from women's standpoint is really understanding that men are different in how we think, how we behave, how we're overall wired. And the same thing goes for women's I mean for men. So, essentially men lacking an understanding of the emotional state or the emotional side of women and not knowing how to tap into that or navigate through that. Whereas she also struggles with trying to navigate through his logical side and how he goes about things and that disconnect because both sides are expecting the other to understand them where they are, all right. And they're not trying to understand the other person. And so, we get caught up in our own feelings, our own perceptions of things and that creates this huge fight, this huge battle rather than really learning how the other side operates.

This is going to be an oversimplified question or response that you have because each person is unique. But I want you to fill in the blank If a woman understood X about a man, they would be happy in their relationship.

The simplicity of a man, they would be happy.

If a woman understood the simplicity of a man, they would be happy in their relationship. They would have less stress, they would have less arguments, they would have less pain, suffering.

What does it mean to be the.

Simplicity of a man?

So, there's a few things. One, a lot of women overthinking, overanalyzing their relationships. And so, a simple example I gave in one of my videos is like, let's say a guy says she said ask the man what do you want for your birthday? And he says listen, let's just watch a movie together, have some pizza, drink some liquor, I'm good. Have some sex that's all I need for the night. And the woman thinks let me get him a wallet.

He's like no, I didn't ask for that.

Exactly. It's so simple, he's telling you exactly what he wants. The words coming out of his mouth are it's what he means. The problem is so many women have been conditioned to dealing with liars and manipulators. Dealing with men who are playing games that when they are with a good man who's being forthcoming and honest, they don't know how to take that. And also because women are very... They're in the details, all right. So, they are going to see what you need they're going to analyze and say okay, I can get this for him. they're more thoughtful in their approach. They go deeper which is why they become so frustrated with us because we don't. When we don't understand that when they said I'm okay, that they really weren't okay, that bothers them. When they told us we don't want anything for Valentine's Day but they really wanted something and we didn't get that, that bothers them because it's like, why aren't we looking deeper? Why aren't we learning them and being more in tune with them because that's how they are with us. And so again, it's a disconnect of we operate very differently but if they would just understand we're very simple. And the man who wants to be with you who wants to love you is being very plain and clear. If you would just honor and accept that it would make things so much easier.

And if a man knew X about a woman they would have a happy life.

What's the right word? It really goes back to understands that her emotions... I'm trying to find the right way to phrase this but it's really understanding the emotional side of the woman. And what I mean by that is again, if you're with a woman let's say you guys are walking down the street and she says I don't feel safe right now, all right. To a man we may analyze the area and say well, there's nothing of danger here what's your problem? You're crazy. No, don't do that. If she says I don't feel safe you have to understand that's how she feels. That's her emotion right now and her emotion is reality to her. She may not be able to explain it, it may be something within her, within her spirit. But as men we make a mistake of dismissing it because it doesn't line up with our logic. And now it's you're crazy, you're this, you're that rather than no, try to understand she's feeling like this for a reason. And even if we can't always explain it, honor it. Now, the man's concern is well, now she can manipulate you and play you because even when it doesn't make any sense she can say I feel this way. But if you're with a good woman and she's been good to you in every other way, why question that she's playing games now? Give her the benefit of the doubt. So, I think if we would just learn to embrace what her emotions are at the moment we would be able to have more peace. Because again, a lot of fights come from you're trying to force your logic onto her. She's trying to tell you how she feels right now.

Right.

And it's like this, no, meet her where she's feeling right now. Acknowledge that say, okay, you know what I understand it let's handle it from that perspective.

Why is it so hard for let's talk about men in this situation to acknowledge someone's feelings when in the man's mind you're you might be acting crazy. These feelings are irrational why would I acknowledge irrational feelings when there's nothing to be afraid of in this moment? If that's what a man is feeling. How do they get out of that space and say, okay, this is irrational. In my mind, maybe this is seem crazy because I don't feel this personally. How does a man learn to connect on that level so that they feel safe in that moment, even if it is irrational?

So three things. It's going to be awareness, Why did I just lose my train of thought for the second one?

Awareness, yep.

Awareness, I'm missing the second one and then communication at times when things are not chaotic, all right. So, the problem is you can't be trying to have this full deep discussion at this... If you feel like she's being irrational, if you feel like this is not making any sense, now you're trying to have this deeper discussion that maybe she's not ready to have at the moment, all right. She's feeling all over the place who knows what's triggering her right now. wait till things are calm. And now, let's revisit what happened the other day.

Don't fix it when it's not when it's chaotic.

Exactly, it's almost like you know, sometimes a woman doesn't want you to fix it she wants you to listen and acknowledge how she feels. And so, we can talk about we can revisit it at a different time but in that time she needs you to embrace where she's at emotionally.

What if the man is just like it doesn't make sense. You're making no sense Right now, what you're saying is irrational, maybe it's illogical, it's crazy, none of it makes sense. How do they wrap their heads around the madness of the emotion that is not real to them?

It really is a... This is... Oh, it's about practice. So, that was the second part. Awareness practice, communication. So, the practicing of it is just simply understanding listen, it doesn't always have to make sense, all right? What does it hurt you in that moment to just be more compassionate and considerate of how she's feeling even if it doesn't line up with your logic right there? You know what I'm saying? And again, we can revisit this and use it as a moment to now learn more about each other. But right now is not the time.

So, tomorrow, three days later we can say hey, listen, you know that time when we were walking down the street and you were afraid nothing was around Can we talk about that?

Exactly, exactly. And now we can gain better understanding because at that moment it may be easier for her to articulate it. But in the moment of her emotions running all over the place, it's going to be hard for her to get it out clearly. Not because she's trying to be difficult, it's just she's feeling all over the place, it's just hard. It's like think about a child and I'm not trying to reduce women to children but think about a child being in their frantic moment something happening to them. and you're saying tell me what's wrong. They can't tell you. It's hard for them to say it. But once they're calmed down and at a better place they can.

Absolutely.

So, we just have to be... We got to be patient as well. We got to be patient with each other and give grace. We're going to have moments where yeah, it may not make sense but again, overall if you're with a good woman why act like she must be... She's being difficult or evil right now.

You know, there's a lot of good women. Speaking of good women, there's a lot of good women out there that are friends of mine who are single. They've been single for years. I'm thinking of a few of them specifically in my mind. So I speak to these women's archetype because I think there's a lot of women like this out there. They've been single for they haven't been in a they've been dating, but they haven't been in a committed long term relationship for a while. Good women, they make their own money. They're independent, they're kind, they're compassionate, they're loving, they're they've got their own vision. but they're struggling in finding the right guy who will commit. What do you think is missing from those women? Or is this a timing thing? Maybe it's like, hey, you've been trying this for 8-10 years and you haven't found someone. Maybe it's still timing. Maybe they haven't showed up in your life yet. But if they're going on dates, they're doing these things and they still haven't been able to find a partner that feels like a good match, the right match. What's missing from them? Or is nothing missing?

It's hard to say because you know, without knowing them individually the issues can vary. You know, I'll tell you what I've seen as common barriers for women. One of the most common and they may not like hearing this but one of the most common is a lacking of being in touch with their feminine side. And that only really plays a huge role depending on the type of man they desire. If they desire a very masculine man, man who has his stuff together, a guy who can be a leader at least has those qualities then not being in your family is going to work against you. You're going to come across more difficult, you're not going to come across as someone that's peaceful and again, I think every man who has stuff going on for himself can say what he needs almost most importantly or at least near the top is peace. Every man needs peace.

Oh, man, I've been saying that my.

Whole life, you know?

Peace.

And so, if he does not view you in that way because again, you project more masculine energy, you project more resistance, more of a difficult nature he's not... You could be the most beautiful amazing woman it's like... And he may want to sleep with you but he's not going to want to take you serious or marry you. So, that can be one problem. Another thing can be timing, you know, A lot of times is we have to understand everything doesn't happen tomorrow, there is a process to this. But in that timing what's important is that you don't drag on with the wrong men. A lot of women reduce their time or reduce their window of opportunity staying with the wrong guys, dating even the wrong guys. So, it doesn't have to be a committed relationship it could just be you're dating and getting to know each other but you knew after a couple of days that he wasn't it. And yet, you're still letting it continue and what... And even though you're not fully committed in this relationship as an official boyfriend girlfriend, you're emotionally invested. And your ability to now be available to someone else is severely hindered. So, you're not going to be able to meet that great guy or that great guy may come across you here that you're dating this guy and say, I'm not even gonna bother with that. And so that hurts you. So timing is it, but you have to make sure you're leaving yourself available.

Here's a question. Do we stay in relationships longer when we haven't fully healed the past?

Hell yes. Absolutely.

I'll probably raise my hand here for pretty much every past relationship where I have known at different levels like something's not right. something's off. Okay, let's work on it. Let's try to make it work. Still things are off. It's like you have a knowing inside and sometimes you try to force it to make it work. And I'm as one to blame as anyone here. And what I realized is like, oh, I haven't fully healed certain things and it's why I've stayed in the past in relationships much longer than I probably should have. But I was afraid. I was afraid of hurting someone. I was afraid of hurting myself. I was afraid of whatever. Yeah. And when I started to learn that, like this is something you talked about over and over, that the healing process is the key process to build a foundation for the potential for a great relationship, for something to flourish.

Yes.

You want to have, you know, the dream is to have a rainforest of an environment in your relationship where things can grow, things can flourish. There's green trees around you. There's waterfalls, not an environment of a desert. where things go to die in the relationship.

Yes.

And I don't think we can truly allow things to grow if we don't learn to heal. And that's something that you taught me years ago and you teach so many people around the world this. But if people don't even think they need to heal something, how do they do it? They can't.

There's no way you can't overcome an obstacle you don't believe exists.

Right.

You know, I'm fine. I got this. Nah, I've dealt with this stuff in the past. like that was me.

Exactly. And so, the problem is most people don't heal until they hit a wall, until something you know, knocks them on their behind and now they have to see things differently and accept the issues that they've been holding on to. But also, I think the problem for a lot of individuals is they're not healed and they're in environments with people who haven't healed either. And now, those unhealed people are going to validate your issues. They're gonna validate your unwillingness to face those things.

This is so hard because whatever guy friends, girlfriends, whoever you are, and you lean on people and say, this person did this, and they validate you and say, Leave them. They're no good for you. You deserve better. You don't deserve that. They shouldn't be doing this, right? They start to validate to be on your side, but they're not healed either if they're coming from that place. Maybe they're correct on certain things. but it's learning how to communicate to your friends in a healthier way probably also.

Well, I think yes, because a lot of people they tell their friends the bad and they don't always tell them the good. So, the friends have a very skewed perception of the relationship or whatever situation that you're facing. But we also have to be aware enough to understand who we're seeking guidance from. Like, I may speak to my friends because I need to vent at the moment or I want some feedback. But I'm fully aware that they are not the end all be all to this, that they may be speaking from their own hurt place. I still can filter their perspective through the understanding of they're not healed enough to give me full proper great guidance, all right. But they might give a perspective that I needed to look at. and that's why I will still talk to them because I want to hear different perspectives. I want to make sure I'm not missing any blind spots here, all right. So, it's good to talk to different people but only if you understand how to not just take them at oh, well, my friend said this so this is it. No, your friend may be broken too and they're going to lead you down an even more broken path.

Exactly, so the conversation you have with some people they're not healed and they're not helping you fully because they're validating something that you don't need to hear necessarily. Maybe some of it is right, but not all of it.

And not to mention it can happen in other ways as far as like, I've seen people where the friend was in a toxic relationship that they were unwilling to leave. So, now when their other friend came to them about their toxic relationship is oh, you know, give them a chance. Oh, you know, cheating happens in every relationship they'll come up with all these validations to stay because they can't look themselves in the mirror and tell themselves to walk away. So, how are they going to tell you to do it? All right. Now, some people can do that. Some people can still tell you opposite of what they're going to actually are willing to do. But a lot of people consciously or subconsciously are trying to validate how they would handle things or how they have handled things, all right. So, if it's I would leave because someone called me out there, out my name one time then I have to tell you that you got to leave for that reason. I can't tell you to be considerate of well, maybe it was a mistake, maybe this can be fixed. Oh, no, no, no because I drew that line you need to draw that line. A lot of people don't understand how to give that unbiased advice. So, that's why you have to be very careful going to friends and family.

Healing is again, A lot of clarity comes through healing. You'll be able to see things differently in a relationship if you are from a healed place. I think a lot of us, myself included, has stayed in relationships longer than necessary because we haven't healed something yet, and that's why we stayed in them.

So.

Would you say that people who have healed and addressed the past, the traumas of the past, the pains of the past, are much quicker to get out of a dating situation when they realize, oh, this isn't for me. I thought it was going to work out, but I don't need to keep trying for months and years to try to make it work. It's not working, I'm willing to walk away. Would you say people healed are able to do that better?

-Absolutely. -Yeah. Basically, the more healed you become or when you have become healed, your willingness or ability to tolerate toxic energy is diminished. You don't know how to operate or how to stay in those environments any longer because now you see things so much clearer. It's almost just like if you were to detox your body and start to eat healthy. Now, you go back to eating some fast food and it will destroy your stomach. So, your willingness to eat that bad food is no longer there or at least it's diminished because now your body knows what healthy feels like, all right. So, emotionally once you get to a healthy place and you know what healthy is, you can't tolerate dysfunction as much anymore. You can't talk someone who does not want to face their issues. You know, it reminds me right now real quick of even when it comes to business or you know what, even when it comes to fitness. A lot of people once they've achieved great success or once they've achieved getting that body they always wanted, they look at those who do not have differently. Before, they may have been in that pool of people that said, my circumstances, there's nothing I can do. It's too hard.

Hard.

But once you've achieved it and you knew what work it took to get there, now it's like, no, you're just unwilling. You don't have enough desire to push past the obstacles to get the results you're looking for. And so again, when you become healthy, your willingness to tolerate this person just can't get past their issues, it's like, no, because I got past mine. I know what it takes. I know you can get if you're willing, but so many are not willing.

Let's say you got in a relationship, you got married, you've been committed for a while, and neither of you have healed. But then one of you decides, you know what? This isn't working. I gotta heal the pain from the past. They go on that journey, they get relief, they find peace in their heart, they're not triggered, whatever it is. They've started and have continually been on the healing process. but the other person continues to be in their own traumatic past experiences. What if they're not willing to heal? Would you recommend like, is that where they should be able to work still? Are you able to find ways to say, well, we still love each other and we have a lot of chemistry and connection most of the time. What would you say about that if the other person's unwilling to heal?

I hate to say this, but I have to be honest. All right. I can never encourage someone to remain in a toxic situation, all right. I do think that we can take an approach that says let's see if we can work this out let's give them a little bit of grace here. And the main thing is can we achieve progress, all right. Rome isn't built in a day and if we've been behaving or we've been tolerating this dysfunction for so many years we can't expect it to Perfect tomorrow. But are you willing to at least start to walk on that path and make progress? Though I don't want to encourage divorce, I don't I cannot feel comfortable telling people to stay trapped in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to face their issues. If you have freed yourself from that, you have healed, they've got to be willing to make a move. And here's the problem people People are afraid to heal or people are afraid to face the issues that requires them to heal, all right. Because you have to... It's like I remember a quote I'm probably saying it wrong. To heal you have to face the pain or you have to dive into the pain something like that, all right. So, people understand it's painful to go and revisit your past. It's painful to let those emotions you've suppressed all these years come back out. And so, now your fear of healing or facing the process of healing is greater than your fear of losing this person, all right. And they think because you're married to them, you're not going anywhere.

You're stuck for life.

Exactly, so for that reason, that's not enough incentive to face their fear of facing their issues. The only thing that may get them to do it is the threat of divorce or is the actual divorce happening. Again, it's not that I wanted to get to that point, I hope and pray everyone you can avoid that. But the reality is some people won't get it together until there's a real consequence on the table and that will be divorce in that situation.

So, okay, let's say someone's like you know what, I feel like I'm good, it's never been about me, it's been about everyone else. It's their problems that why the relationship doesn't work.

I got to stop you real quick. Yes, because this is like hitting my.

Spirit, I got to say it to you.

The other thing to consider was some people will never change, they will never heal. And the reality is that the person you're with is the wrong person and the only reason you got with them is because you were broken. Had you not been damaged in the first place then you may not be with this individual.

Because you wouldn't have chose someone like this if you were coming from a healed place.

Exactly, and if you were healed you would have been your true self, your true yourself may not have aligned with this individual. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances where people still end up with the right person when they were both not healed. I do think that's possible to happen. But a lot of people I would argue the majority when you... Because I always say if you're not healed you are 99% likely to choose the wrong person. So, I do still strongly believe that the majority of people are with the wrong individual and that's marriage, relationship, whatever. Because that brokenness, that damage...

Attracted something else that was...

Exactly and allowed you to tolerate it or it allowed you to feel safer in that environment. Here's the thing that people don't realize when you have not healed, if you were to get with a healthy person it would essentially demand of you from the jump to basically heal or step your game up. And again, people are afraid to face their issues. So, to get with another broken person subconsciously it validates me staying broken. It validates me not having to face my issues because now we all have issues, you see. As long as we all have issues, I don't have to face mine.

The first question is how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David White. this week when we had a conversation together. And he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.

Not always having to speak or...

Yes, or the importance of being able to be with yourself while being in the presence of the other.

What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the room.

Could be that, could be that you go away for a few weeks because you want to go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in. interested in or, you know, it's the notion that it, or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself, but that you stay in dialogue with yourself and a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.

When you mean silent with yourself, do you mean like not speaking at all for part of this time? What do you just mean?

But you're taking it literally.

Yeah, yeah.

It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it. So, Alex, explain the context. Our conversation was called because that's your question about how important is distance. I would say distance is very important in a relationship. But the way I define it is this. Every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness, connection and independence. Every relationship. In every relationship there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness. One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both, but we organize our relationships in which one of us will take on the role of this duality.

And it might evolve seasonally too. Completely.

So we need connection and we need distance. We need the things that are joined and together, and we need the things that are separate. The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship. So when you ask how long can we be a part, it depends what you do with the space in between. If you keep the space in between alive, we are away, we have been together five, six years and you have to go do a project and you're gone for three months. But during those three months you have a whole letter writing experience where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication. Every two days or so at night you sit down and you write a letter, not just what you've done, the catch up of the day, then you create an aliveness to that space in between that can be even richer than when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every morning.

That's interesting. That's powerful, yeah. What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships that you had to face yourself?

Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband Jack when I was 22.

You're what? 35 now?

Yes, I like it. And actually 35 years together.

Really? 35 years together.

Married. Married. Wow. No, we're together even more than that.

Wow.

It's powerful, you know? But I. I probably swallowed the Romantic ideal quite a bit as a young girl, too. Are you gonna meet the right man with this man? If you meet the right person, you will never feel alone again. You will never feel. lonely, you will never be sad, you will... Seriously, you know, whatever you feel, you will feel again until some of it you may feel until you drop dead. But if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths.

How long did it take for you internally to let that go or evolve or heal those.

Minutes.

Ah, yeah, I would say the first decade, you know, it's slowly over time you begin to, you know, you begin to realize that I think, you know, he was, I looked up to him. I still look up to him. He's a very smart guy. And I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him.

Interesting.

Is this smart? Is this Good, can I publish this?

Getting approval.

Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.

Interesting. That was the first 10 years.

Yeah, no, maybe a little bit less than 10, but it was certainly five years.

Okay.

Certainly five years. I really needed him to.

To validate.

Everything I would write and to validate and say it's, it's good because he had the PhD. I don't, you know, the whole And then finally I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write. I'm not gonna be your prophet.

You've got to work, yeah, yeah.

And I was just like, oh, who's gonna help me? Who's gonna help me? You know? And beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition. Mating in Captivity was written completely on my own.

Without his approval of every chapter.

I had a An editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer, it was not an emotional dependency. It was a professional relationship. So that was a major transition. I think also understanding the difference between equality and equity.

What is the difference?

It's not 50-50.

The relationship is not 50-50.

No.

No relationship.

No, it's 100-100. And complementarity. There are certain things that I will never do that I rely on him and certain things that he will never do and he relies on me and they balance each other out. And there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity, you know, if I want to go do something, it's just go do and enjoy, be the best, you know, this complete generosity. And that generosity towards distance or freedom or individuality, this is a very important thing. So here's a question for you and for your listeners as well. Ask yourself, you can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love. To me that was a very important question. I understood early on that I needed freedom. No, I remember it differently. I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.

You needed freedom. I needed more than insecurity.

So I understood early on that I'm gonna be self-employed. Meaning, I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is gonna come from, but I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation.

This was back in the 80s, right?

Yes, yes, this is my 20s, early 20s. But then I applied it to relationships.

Interesting.

I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, Go do your thing. And someone who says to me, Go do your thing. More than someone who does this.

But back then, that wasn't really, you know, thought of that much, was it? It wasn't really as acceptable or maybe, I don't know, people didn't really think that way, or did they? Look, it, maybe the US was different.

No, but you also need, you know, the same way that I said to you, sexuality changes changes in a relationship when you have contraception, well, freedom changes in a relationship when you have economic independence for women.

Interesting.

Otherwise, you know, if the woman cannot conceive of her life separately from her.

Partner, then what happens?

And that at that time, primarily male partner, but I would say all partner, then you cannot talk about freedom because it means you can't leave. It means that you continuously depend on the person and the law. supported that. It's a legal issue. It's not just a psychological issue. Economic independence is an economic dependence on the part of women and mothers was legal. It wasn't just a statement of her ambitions.

Interesting. Do you think more people are able and wanting to get divorces now because both parties have economic independence and you don't need to stay because someone is providing or paying certain bills that you can provide for yourself and either party.

So divorce went up in the United States when women entered the workforce in a way that they could support themselves economically.

Was that because the law changed? Was that because they were more independent financially or because they were off doing other things and other there were big distractions?

Because of economic independence, which would allow them It's a few different things legally. It's alimony so that children continue to be cared for.

Right.

And she's not entirely responsible for them or she doesn't lose them and they go with the father. So now we're in the reverse side and you know, the tension is on the other side, but it's a few pieces. It's being destitute, it's losing your children, it's not having anybody to care for you, and it's not being protected by the law. Those four things need to combine with having an economic independence that then allow you to not be destitute, be able to take care of your children, not rely on your partner in case they don't support you or can't support you, et cetera. So that is the history of divorce. You can't separate the history of divorce from the economic changes and the legal changes around family policy.

How long do you think people should date before they get married? To really know, like, if they're giving themselves the best chance for not divorce, let's say.

Depends how they date. If their dating is a, you know, service level. Exactly. A parading of the best things of me, then it doesn't matter how long. It doesn't change. Right. You know, but I would say that the dating, The most important pieces of dating, I think the dating is really bizarre at this moment because most people, because you date and you date alone. You see the person alone when in fact you learn so much more from seeing people in social situations.

You know, with their friends or family.

You bring a person on date to people. You know what I did? I had a dinner at my house and it was a bunch of single people. And then one of them at one point said, I actually need to, you know, they were talking about relationships and long term and how do you know all these questions that you're asking me? And, and at one point one of them said, well, I actually need to go because I have a blind date. So I said, where are you going? Exactly. What are you gonna do? Sit in a noisy bar where you can't hear each other? Bring them over. We know so much more. And anyway, she was really bold. She did it. the guy came too, so everybody's doing their part. And there's about 12 of us there. And he shows up, and we just tell him, we're in the middle of this conversation.

That's crazy.

And then I, you know, but the point was, you know how much we learned about this guy? And she learned about him, but we all did too.

We learned a lot.

A lot.

Who he was, in the family, where he's from, and he's thinking about couples and I mean, seriously, he... And he.

Was adventurous, he was willing to come and be a part of this experiment.

The whole thing. And I actually ran into this woman.

A few years later.

Were they still dating or not?

No, they didn't date, but she never forgot it, and neither did he, and neither did I.

Right.

You know, bring people you meet in your circle. First of all, your friends see things that you don't see.

Yeah.

And they often don't want to tell you, and they see it and they know you. Second of all, you'll see how a person interacts with the social circle rather than in this kind of dissociated space. So I think that this notion of we sit alone, we sit alone, we sit alone, and only later do we begin to introduce each other.

Months later.

Months later.

Let me introduce him to the family. Let me introduce him after after six months sometimes. And then like, huh, I don't like this, this and this, but now you're already developing something.

I asked my boys, you know, I said, did your friends meet her? Who knows her?

No one.

You know, I mean, you make sure.

They expose them to people quickly. Yes, yes.

And you don't have to go and get them checked. It's not that you can go and to, you know, go to a concert, share some activity together. But you will learn about people not in a vacuum. We learn about people in social situations. You learn about people in how they treat the cab driver, the waiter, the dry cleaner, the person on the street, the homeless person, the policeman, everybody.

I was actually listening to a video last night for like an hour of you, like, it was like the three dating advice tips or something of you speaking in a seminar, Answering questions, right? And I remember just hearing your answers. All these women would say, well, what if I'm, you know, with a guy and the flames out? Or what if I'm excited and he was excited and then he starts not responding? And you were answering questions and I was like, they're also logical and sound. It's not like the sleazy weird things. It's like, well, think about it. If you were in this position, how would you respond? And this and this and this and it was like, man, you're giving great advice. And now I know why so many people are attracted to the information you're putting out there.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I think that too much advice either strays into the either the aphoristic side of things. It's very, very cliche. I mean, this is what I think one of the big problems I have with the self-help industry in general is it has become so platitudinous. It's just, It to the extent that it becomes mind numbing and and to some extent I the crowd that it begins to attract I don't like or have anything in common with right, you know, when someone comes up to me at the end of a seminar and says, you know, I love your stuff, you know, it's it's, you know, I'm a big law of attraction fan. I know immediately we have nothing in common, right? I think wow, I don't I don't even know how you like myself this stuff.

Right.

Because I, I can't stand these Concepts and, and this pseudo science that is often put out there. For me, I'm all about the Logical. I'm all about the, the Practical. And I like things that can be tested. I like, and I think that's why people like Tim Ferriss perhaps have done so well, because they, in, in a market that is full of just vague, silly advice.

Yes.

You know, I hear people in their, you know, say to women in their love lives, just open your heart. and you think, what do you mean by that? Like, what does she do today that's different based on that piece of advice? Just like, be yourself. You know, be yourself is, is extraordinarily lazy advice.

Right.

It's the advice people give when they don't know an actual solution. Because what do you, you just say, just be yourself. What does that even mean? You know, and by the way, be yourself is often just a euphemism for Don't grow. How many people are the same person today they were five years ago? No one. And who's going to be the same today, tomorrow as they are today? People change and they evolve. So be yourself is a very strange and lazy piece of advice to give someone, but that's what we get all the time. So advice either goes into the kind of vague or it ends up going.

Into.

Sometimes the sleazier or more sarcastic elements. You know, I sometimes think at the other end of the spectrum, sometimes you have the comedian, you know, the guy who is just everything's a joke, everything's sarcastic, this very cynical, oh, you can't change anything, blah, blah, blah. Learn to deal with it. And that gets too much the other way. Then someone essentially just becomes a cynic. and for me, what I try and base my advice on is this nice balance of realism and I wouldn't even say optimism, just the being empowered to actually do something about real life.

So what I'm curious about is how, why is it you have the credibility to give so many women advice? You're only 27, right?