This Is Why Your RELATIONSHIP WON'T LAST (Fix THIS Today!) | Lewis Howes

There is no one and only. There is one person that you choose at a certain moment in time. And with that person, you try to create the most beautiful relationship you can. The next thing that changed culturally, if you want to really take on the big myths, it's the notion that how.

Do you feel like people could set up for a healthier relationship as opposed to what would you recommend or suggest for people in order to have a healthier foundation? Seeing that it seems so sexualized now. Everything seems so like physical swiping, looking at someone's sexual identity, attraction, as opposed to, I guess, true intimacy and connection. How would you set up a relationship now?

There's so many different pieces to this. I think the first things, look, I am right about sexuality. I'm not going to minimize it, but I do understand that it's very important. It's a beautiful thing to have a powerful erotic connection with someone. But don't confuse the metaphors. You can have a beautiful erotic connection with someone, and that does not necessarily translate into a life experience.

Right?

A life story.

A life story. That said, the next thing that changed culturally, if you want to really take on the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only. The one and only my soulmate is my everything. Yes, my everything. Your soulmate used to be God, not a person. You know, the one and only was the divine. And with this one and only today, I want to experience wholeness and ecstasy and meaning and transcendence. And I'm going to wait 10 more years, we are waiting 10 years longer to settle with someone, to make a commitment to someone for those of us who choose a someone. And if I'm going to wait longer and if I'm looking around and if I'm choosing among a thousand people at my fingertips, you bet that the one who's going to capture my attention is going to make me delete my apps. Better be the one and only. So in a period of proliferation of choices, we at the same time have an ascension of expectations about a romantic relationship that is unprecedented. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today in the West.

It seems like a lot of pressure.

It's an enormous amount of pressure. We crumble under the weight of these expectations because a community cannot become a tribe of two. This is a party of two. And with you and me together, we are going to create best friends, romantic partners, lovers, confidants, parents, intellectual eagers, business partners, business partners, career coaches. I mean, you name it and I'm like, seriously, one person for everything. One person instead of a whole village. So that's the first myth. And the notion of unconditional love that accompanies this is that when I have that one and only, I have what you call clarity, but translated into certainty, peace and freedom, or safety, which is the other side of the same thing. So that, to me is if you want to set yourself up, really, the idea that you're going to find one person for everything is a myth. Keep a community around you.

Absolutely.

Keep a set of deep friendships, really deep friendships, deep intimacies with friends, with mentors, with family members, with colleagues. You know that. So that's the first thing for me. And having good relationships is. Is diversify.

Diversify relationships, but not sexually.

No, no. For some people it will include that. For the vast majority it won't. But the notion that there isn't a one person for everything, and that that doesn't mean that there is a problem in your relationship when that happens. The second thing is stop constantly looking at people as a product, where you evaluate them and you evaluate yourself. You know, in our market economy, everything has become a product. We include it. And so love seems to have become the moment that the evaluation of the product stops. You have finally been approved, when you have been chosen and when you choose. This is Eva Iluz, a sociologist who writes about this very beautifully. It's like love finally becomes the moment you can experience peace. You're no longer looking, selling yourself, proving yourself, trying to capture somebody's attention. Exhausting. And once you are in that mentality, you also are continuously looking for the best product. You never say, you know, how can I meet a person who people don't often talk about? How can I be a person who.

That's so true.

Okay, so it's what you're looking for in the market economy of romantic love, rather than, who are you, how do you show up, what do you bring, what responsibility do you take, how generous are you, etc.

Absolutely.

Second thing for what I think sets you up for a better relationship. And the third thing is understand some of the things that are really important to you and don't get involved with someone on the hope that some things will change.

Do things ever change with a partner that you want to change?

Yes, things do change a lot. I mean, many different things can occur in a relationship, but it's different from coming in here to turn things around, you know, because so much of us want the experience of acceptance. So with acceptance, I would say this another thing to prepare Yourself. You can love a person wholly. W H O L L why? Without having to love all of them.

What do you mean by that?

It means that the notion of unconditional love is a myth. Adult love lives in the realm of ambivalence, which means that relational ambivalence is part and parcel of all our relationships. We have it with our parents, our siblings, our friends. Which means that we continuously have to integrate contradictory feelings and thoughts between love and hate, between excitement and fear, between envy and contempt, between boredom and aliveness. You continuously negotiate these contradictions. That ambivalence and living with that ambivalence is actually a sign of maturity. Rather than continuously then evaluating. See, in the beginning you evaluate, is this the right one? Is this the one and only? Is this the. Then it becomes, shall I stay or shall I go? How do I know? I have found the one is the pre marital or the pre commitment relationship. And then afterwards it becomes, is it good enough? We continuously continue with the evaluations, right? Is it good enough or how happy am I? Am I happy enough? So that's the unconditional love. No, we live with ambivalence in our relationship. There are periods where we think, what would life be like elsewhere? And then we come back and then we say, I can't imagine it without it. This is what I've chosen. I'm good here. But it's a conversation. The idea that you will be accepted unconditionally is a dream we have for our parents when we are babies. It's not part of adult love.

Right? So unconditional love is not something that we can expect.

Unconditional love is a myth. So the one and only is a myth. You asked me, how do we set ourselves up for the best, for relationships up front? There is no one and only. There is one person that you choose at a certain moment in time. And with that person you try to create the most beautiful relationship you can. But you could have done it with others. Timing is involved. Lots of things are involved. So there is no one and only.

There's no soulmate.

Soulmate is God. You can think that you have a soulmate connection with someone, that you have a deep, deep meeting of the minds, of the souls, of the heart, of the bodies. But it's a metaphor. It's not a person. It's the quality of an experience that feels like soulmate. That's number two. Number three, there is no unconditional love. We live with ambivalence in our deepest love relationships. There are things we like and things we don't. And things they like about us and things they don't. And moments they can't be without us. And moments where they wish on occasion, they could be away from us. And that's normal. Number four, the happiness mandate. Continuously evaluating how happy I am. You know, if you continuously pursue happiness, you're miserable a lot of the time.

What should we pursue instead?

We pursue integrity, depth, joy, aliveness, connection, growth. Those things that ultimately make us say, I feel good, I'm happy about this, but I don't pursue happiness. Happiness is the consequence of a lot of things you put in. You pursue caring for someone, having their back, feeling they have your back, wanting the best for them. What the Pali people call compersion. You know, those things, you can pursue conversion.

What's compersion?

Compersion is feeling joy for the happiness of the other person.

This is polyamory relationships. It's a concept with another sexual partner.

But I think the word is bigger than just, you know, contained within the poly community and culture. It is the notion that you want good for the other person, even when it doesn't have to do with you.

Right?

You're proud of them, you admire them, you enjoy their growth, their successes.

You know, what about when someone says, you know, I'm with this person, they make me happy? What does that happen when you're looking for someone to make you happy in the relationship?

Well, the day they don't, you will say, they make me unhappy or they don't make me happy. But it's they, they do to me. I'm the recipient of what they do. They have the power, they can give, they can withhold. I depend, I crave, I long, I yearn, I respond to them.

And what should we be thinking of instead of this person makes me happy? How should we approach that?

We give each other a good foundation from which we can each launch into our respective worlds.

Oh, that's cool.

A home is a foundation with wings. Or I like to think a good relationship is a foundation with wings. So you feel the stability that you need, the security, the safety, the predictability, as much as you can, as much as our life allows us. And at the same time, you have the wings to go and explore, discover, be curious, be in the world, sometimes together and sometimes apart.

What do you think happens when people are in a relationship and let's say they're together for a year or a couple years, they decide, okay, we want to get married, but maybe one or two, each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person. Maybe there's like three things that they really don't like or don't accept or wish they changed. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, I love so much. We have this great connection. We have so much fun and we're growing and building a relationship, but behind their back, you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, I wish they changed this, this, or this. I don't like this thing, or I don't like this thing.

That's ambivalence.

What does that mean?

Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings of what you like and what you don't like. What makes you want to be here and what makes you not want to be here.

What happens when we don't accept that, though, and we like? You know, hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that I don't like about them. What happens when we're in that space?

That means that when you get married, you're not just making a deal with your partner, you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is going to. And then when it doesn't, you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself, which you never said out loud, it's the private bargain you do with yourself. And all of us when we pick someone, make private bargains with ourselves too. And it's often that bargain that is broken more than the one. Because the partner never promised you that this would change.

Exactly. And so it just creates more resentment. When we want something to change, we.

Don'T accept that expectations are resentment in the makeup. The more expectations you have, the more things you can be disappointed of afterwards, especially when they're not articulated. I think what you need to know is what are some of the things? If you are with someone who. If you go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection and you know that this is something that really is important to you. Being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you and you don't want to live without it, then listen to yourself. If it's not an important part for you because that is not the way you express yourself most, then you know that this is not the centerpiece of your relationship. You have other things that you share. If you know that you don't want children or the reverse that the other person doesn't Want children. Don't go in there hoping that they're going to change your mind, their mind, because that is not fair to you nor to them. If you are with someone who says, I do not want to marry and you do, or if you are with someone who says, I see love, plural, I do not see myself just with one partner. And this is clear to you that that's not okay or that you want it differently. Listen to yourself. Those are values that involve life decisions, that you don't sit there waiting till they're going to catch up with you.

And what happens when our. When two people's values are not in alignment? Can they still have a beautiful life story? Or do you feel like there's always going to be some type of unnecessary story?

I think it depends on the degree to which people can live with what we call a sense of differentiation. Meaning if I am okay wanting to go to church and that's not part of what you do. We come from the same faith or we come from different religions and one of us wants to adhere to their tradition and wants to participate in the practices of their religion and is okay doing it without the other, doesn't feel that that needs to be shared, doesn't experience every time they sit in church. I wish you were sitting next to me. Why do I have to come here alone? All the know I, I that so.

It'S accepting someone's choices.

It's, it's, it's, it's accepting that your choice. If you practice it, you can accept to do it without your partner.

So it's you accepting it.

It's you accepting it. Of course, the other person. But the other person can often tell you, you go if you like to be there. I don't want to go there on Sunday morning. I have other things to do with my time.

Sure.

Okay. Religion is a major one on that. Travel is another one on that. Children work. It's difficult to. I'll have a child alone. You don't have to participate. But it is easier to say, I will continue to practice my religion because it is central to me. You don't have to be a part of that. We have other things that we will share, but you need to know to do that and feel okay about it. If all the time. Now, that doesn't mean that on occasion you don't miss and you wish you partnered. There's a great sermon. I so wish you had been there to hear it.

Great.

But if it's chronic and you just feel this hole all the time and you know from the beginning that it is a unifier for you. And your partner is. And your partner doesn't show curiosity because you can come from something else and say, I'm interested in this. Let me see what this is. If you want to go back to live in your home country and your partner has zero intention of leaving where they are, listen to them. Don't hope. If they tell you, yes, I would like that at some point, then listen carefully. If they're saying this to pacify you, if they're saying this to make sure that you don't leave them, or if they truly intend to do this at some time.

And don't hope something's going to change, don't hope they're going to do something later after you get married or in a committed relationship.

No.

Start from the place that it's not going to happen. See how it is.

Can you accept that?

Can you accept that? Then if things change, all the better. But don't start with the hope that it will be different.

Right. And how does jealousy play in relationships? I used to be extremely jealous and insecure.

I remember that.

And then something switched in me. I don't know, five years ago, six years ago, maybe somewhere around that time where I was like, you know what? This does not support me or my relationship at all. This jealous nature or this.

That you knew even when you were jealous.

Oh, yeah, I knew. But I couldn't let it go though.

Right. So it's not what you said to yourself that changed what you said?

Something changed. Yeah. I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember just being like, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of feeling this way.

So what did you change? Not what did you say to yourself?

I think I changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing and trusting that everything was going to be okay and not needing to be jealous. I think I was just afraid. Like, are they talking to some guy or something? You know, is there something behind my back that they're doing? I don't know. It was a worry of like an anxiousness.

Right.

So.

And then I was just like, wait, wait, wait. Yes.

Part of what accompanies jealousy, you know, jealousy starts at one and a half year old.

Okay.

It's not an early emotion.

Interesting.

It needs a sense of self. It needs the beginning of self awareness as a baby to be able to experience jealousy. It's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness.

So where does it come from?

Where it comes from and how Evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy, but where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience how you respond to what other people are doing. I want that too. I don't, you know, I don't want to lose something. What changed for you is that you became more confident, you felt less that your sense of self worth is in the hands of the other person. And that if they turned away from you, that means that you are not enough or that you're going to lose them or that they're going to leave you. That's what changed.

And then I'd be like hurt or empty or sad or in pain because of their actions. And I think that's 100%. I think I didn't feel like I was good enough or something where I was just like, you know what, it's all gonna be okay. You know, if they do something or.

But this, it's all gonna be okay. Followed in different sense of yourself.

Absolutely.

Where you were less in a panic, less in the grip of they're gonna abandon me and I'm not good enough. And from that place you began to say, it's okay, nothing bad is going.

To happen to me.

That's how we diminish jealousy. It's not how we react to what the other person does, it's how we feel about ourselves that changes how we react about what the other person does.

Before the interview continues, if you feel like you're not living your most authentic life, not leaning into your purpose, and not living the life that your future self would be extremely proud.

Proud of.

I've written a new book called the Greatness Mindset and I think you're going to love this. Through powerful stories, science backed strategies and step by step guidance, the greatness mindset will help you overcome all the different challenges in your life to design the life of your dreams and then turn it into your reality. Make sure to click the link below in the description to get your copy today. Okay, let's get back to this video. What do you see is the difference maker for healthy long lasting love for decades versus those that stay married a long time but aren't happy and those that eventually get divorced.

I think the statistics are something like 50%. Right? So 50% of all marriages end in divorce. The, the illusion is, is that the 50% that are left are happy.

No, they're not.

No, they're not.

Maybe 15% or something.

Maybe.

Right.

And we don't really know. I mean like if you went and polled everybody, you might be even shocked.

5%.

Right.

Why are they so challenging to be healthy and happy long term for so many people?

Well, I think part of the deal is the bar is very low. So the bar, something like, we get along.

Right.

Like, that's it. I've got T shirts I get along with.

Right.

You know.

So then what's it really all about? If that's the struggle, if the struggle is to get along, like I said, that's a very low bar.

Get along with lots of people.

Right, Right. I mean, I get along with the person who, you know, makes my coffee at Starbucks. Right. You know, I mean, but really what I've found to be the case, and it's not. I'm not looking at, like, particular people, for example. Right. But I'm gonna look at, like, what keeps a human being involved in anything. Right. So, like, why does somebody like. So I love to play guitar. Why? Right. Why? Because I engage with that thing. I'm curious about that thing. I want to get better at that thing. I like how it feels when I accomplish something in that thing. If you take that in any aspect of your life, the same thing holds true. So my relationship with my wife is a function of who I am in it, and I need to keep bringing that to it. There's no time when this is a done deal. I have to keep showing up here. Not for longevity, which is, I think, where a lot of people get messed up. People look at the relationship, well, I can't do this for the rest of your life. The rest of my life. And I'm like, well, you don't have to.

You just do it today.

Right. Like.

Right.

It's like being on a diet. I don't need to be on a diet for three months. I just need to be on it right now.

Yeah.

And that is moment to moment to moment to moment to moment. Because that's really all you have. But so what I do notice is that the areas of life where you are flourishing most, there is some profound relationship you have between what you say and what you do. There's a profundity at play. So if you look at any area you're successful, you are literally doing what you said you would do. Even when what I don't feel like it.

Yeah.

Right. Marriage is the same. Marriage is the same. Marriage. And I talk about this in the book. I say, especially in the Western world. But you look at. And I'm using marriage as kind of model, but applies to all relationships. Yes. But in A marriage, there's a ceremony. There's this coming together where you make.

An agreement, a commitment.

Very good.

And you use words.

And it's a vow. Right. And I talk about the bankruptcy of the vow in a marriage. Because nobody vows anything anymore.

Or they vow it, but they don't.

Live up to the well, because they don't have a relationship to a vow. So we're not going around in life going a vow to meet you at three o'.

Clock.

Nobody's saying that. But 200 years ago when you vowed something. The American Declaration of Independence is just people vowing they brought something, any existence on the strength of what they said.

Yes.

There was no fighting. Well, there was some fighting, but they created a nation from words. Right? I mean, that's what that is. That's like a declaration. Right. We're declaring we're independent. Well, what do you mean you're independent? Well, we just declared it. So we all. And we vow our lives in our sacred honor. And most of those people literally gave their life for that. They literally gave their life to that promise. I bet they were scared.

Absolutely.

I bet they were intimidated. But their word was greater than that experience of themselves. That's the same in any area of your life. You have to start realizing that what you say is a big deal. And what you say to yourself is a big deal. A lifetime of constantly bending, shaping and breaking your word to yourself will leave you with a diminished relationship to you. You'll never do great things because somewhere in there you think you're full of it. Because you've broken your word to yourself.

So many times, you're out of integrity with yourself.

Very good. There's no power to those words.

What happens when we are out of integrity so consistently with ourself or even one time with our partner? What happens to ourselves?

Well, I mean, you gotta start relating to what you say like it's important. Just like it's important. Start there. I said I was gonna. And this is important not because the thing's important, but what I said to myself and my relationship to that thing is what's important.

Yeah.

So any area in life, like I said earlier, where you're powerful or successful, you'll see you have a very strong relationship to what you said. Very strong one.

Sometimes you're committed to that thing.

There's just no question for you. Like it's on like Donkey Kong, you know, you're just doing it.

Why is it easier in some areas of life than it is in others to be consistent with what you Say and what you want to do.

Right. And that's eventually. It's great that you kind of put it that way, because that's the path you'll follow. But the real strength of you is when you can say something like, for instance, when I was in my mid-40s, you know, I said, I'm going to produce authentic wealth.

What's the difference between authentic and inauthentic?

Yeah, I'm doing it for that, not for anything about me, which was wild for me because everything up to that point about money was all about fixing something about me or my life. And I was just doing it to see if I could do it, which I'd never done before. And I'd never fully given it that attention, like, just for that. And so I put a number on it, which was a crazy number for that time in my life. Like, crazy number.

Like, for your 40s or what, how much you want to do.

I was 45. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to do it. I'm going to use my 50s for that, and I'm going to produce it. Right. I produced it by the time I was 52. And I only really started when I was 48. So I did it really fast.

The amount of money that you want.

The amount of money that I said. But it was wild because I had no attachment to it.

What do you mean?

Like, there was no emotion in it for me. There was no desperation, no, like, I gotta do it, and no burning. It was just like I said I was gonna do it and I'm doing it. So I ended up with this really kind of flat relationship between my words and my actions. Like, it was flat. Like, there were days when I felt like doing it and there were days when I didn't feel like doing it. But the interesting thing for me was when I declared it, when I said I was gonna do it, like the Declaration of Independence, I had no idea how I was gonna do something like that. I don't know how you even. I'm not a money guy. You know, I'm not. But now it's game on, because I created the top of the mountain in my speaking. So I spoke the top of the mountain in existence.

And then you figured out how along the way.

But that's now the game. Now the game. People say, well, you know, how do you even do such. I think, well, that's the first question. How do you even do such a thing? And you might have to engage with that question for two years or three years or four years. But you got to be actively resolving some of that stuff for yourself. Well, it's the same in love. Like, I'm committed to the most loving, passionate, and adventurous relationship that's possible. That's the top of the mountain. The top of the mountain speaks to me every day. I can tell whether I'm walking that path or not that influences this. It's not even necessarily about that. It's more about what that does with us. Well, how does that shape me today? Am I lining up with what I said or not? And if I'm not, I might have a lot of reasons, excuses, and justifications for that. But at the same time, am I going to treat that like it matters to me, or am I going to just be like, well, you know, so far, so good, or it's been a tough week, or, you know, there's a lot in my mind, or, you know, are you being a jerk? Why am I loving with you? Because I said I would. And that's what matters to me. Yes, that's what matters. That I said I would matters to me.

Someone once told me that the key to his success in relationships was 80% of it was who you choose.

Yeah.

80% of the relationship success is, you know, how you match well with the person you're choosing.

Yeah.

You only spent, I guess, a year with the person that you chose.

Yeah.

Did you know that when you were choosing this person, do. You were like, okay, I feel like we're gonna be in a great alignment with our values and our vision.

Yeah.

Our lifestyle. Or was it more of just a feeling that you felt connected to this person and you've decided, I did what everybody does.

Right. What everybody does is they get in a relationship because they feel as if this person resolves something about themselves. That's what I did. And so there was something about this woman that I thought, wow, like, being with her, everything seems right. Like, I feel good about me.

I didn't feel good in talking about her.

Right. Ali. Like, there's something getting fixed here. So, no, I'm not that pragmatic.

Yes.

And I think most people aren't that pragmatic. And I think there's an illusion there that somehow you'll find the one. And really, I feel as if the job is to explore what's possible between you and this person, whoever that person is, and their potential and your potential. So it was less about having, like, finding something that matched up with me, which I don't know if that would work for me. Might work for some people, but I don't know if that would work for me. What was really captivating for me at the time was being with her had me feel a lot better about me. And I think I really fundamentally believe that that's what most people go into relationships for.

Is that the right thing to look at or is it.

No, that's an absolute.

It's a recipe. Because then you're always relying on that person to make you happier.

Well, because whatever that thing is that they satisfy for you is something you haven't sorted out for yourself yet, right?

So eventually you're gonna have to do that. Otherwise you're always needing that from someone else, Right?

So you go in there and they're the solution, and you end it with the notion that they were the problem. Wow. And what's consistent in all of that is you, right? I mean, I don't know if anybody's ever noticed this, but in every crappy relationship you've ever had, it's got one common denominator.

That's you, right?

It's always you.

Some big awakening I had after my previous relationship ended. I was like, man, it's been 10, 15 years of relationships that started and then that crumbled in some way or that fell apart. And the core of all those things was me. Was my choices, was my getting into attracting those relationships, was this commitment to those relationships, was the unwinding of those relationships. And so why was I choosing these types of relationships? What was unresolved within me that I get to take a look at now, or I'm going to keep repeating this pattern until I address the thing inside of me, right?

So what's great about your kind of pathway? If you. Like, you can't. First of all, you've got to be able to look at that distinct from blame, right? I know. I know a lot of people just heard what you said and thought, well, but what if it is them, right? I know a lot of people, People sitting there right now going, dang it, I did say that to myself. And I say, well, if you take away, who's to blame? And so sometimes people say stuff like, why do I keep attracting these kinds of people? And I say, well, what if it's not attraction? What if you are literally looking for them? What if it's you're seeking something about that person that initially solves what you're dealing with but will allow it to keep perpetuating? Like, it keeps showing up and showing up. I call that an identity relationship. There's something about you, and it's the same for the other person that when you get past all the stuff, whatever's incomplete will keep getting activated there or keep showing up. So when you. When you start to see it like, oh, these are just two human beings doing what human beings do, then it's not personal, which is radical when you get it like that, like it's not personal. It's not personally them, personally me. Like, these are just two beings trying to work this out and work what will essentially work themselves out. So that's why I incest with people. The greatest work you'll ever do, you'll ever do is to get complete with your first 20 years of life.

So true.

First 20 years. Because everything after that is a reflection of it. I spent 26 years in Glasgow. 26 years. I've been longer here and I still identify with that. Like, it's me, but I've been longer here and it's some of the colloquialisms and the traditions and like, I identify with that because it became so imprinted. In my second book, I talked about, you're the little magic sponge and you're not soaking up all of life, you're soaking up the bits. And then when you hit about 20, that little sponge just hardens. And whatever's in there, that's it, it's in there. And that's what you use that logic. And until you awaken to that and realize that all of that that's there is really only a potential you, there's so much more. If you think about it like quantum physics, right? Like multiple universes, endless universes, all happening at the same time, multiple potentials. Well, that's every second of your life, every second of your life, there's a myriad of potential use that could be talking right now. And what you typically do is the you that you did the second before and the second before. And so it perpetuates until you get aware, until you start to be like, oh, I'm not stuck with this. I could literally be somebody else. When right now, right now. I could be somebody else right now. I could say something else.

What's been the biggest mistakes you've brought to relationships? Me personally, that you've later had to realize and take accountability for? Okay, yeah, I was responsible for this or this. Or I could have shown up differently.

Yeah, for me, definitely has been in the past. Codependency. And what I. What that looks like is. It's funny, you know, relationships are funny. I mean, I've had some really beautiful relationships and I've had some not so beautiful relationships. And that's why certain people are going to bring out certain things in you, whereas others are not. But I've definitely brought codependency and low self wor worth to relationships. Like depending on my partner too much for my happiness really.

Yeah.

What happens when we depend on our partner to make us happy?

Catastrophe. So here's the paradox. I think that we need to be with someone who wants to make us happier and that we want to make. We want to add value to each other's lives. We want to make the path easier, but no one can walk our path but ourselves. And so what happens is that when. And it's unconscious, you know, and it's part of it is also conditioning. It's like be with someone who makes you happy, this or that. You know. The problem is that if you don't feel at least mostly whole, you know, we all have our things that we're dealing with. But if you don't, if you feel really fragmented and you think a relationship or another person is going to actually bring all the pieces together, then what's going to happen is that you're going to be really disappointed because then you're relying on another fallible, flawed human.

Imperfect human.

Imperfect human. And you're going to have all these expectations and your shoulders are going to be crushed by the weight of failed expectations constantly. But you know, so yeah, I've done that. Yeah, not really standing on my own two feet emotionally. I have brought stress to a relationship and not, and not my self awareness around stress to the point where I've closed or. Yeah, where I've closed. You know, not been receptive to love.

Guarded.

Yeah, guarded or just tense and stressed and just totally expecting to be loved anyway. And it's, it's, you know, relationship is so filled with paradox. It's like yes, they should actually contribute to your happiness, but you also have to know how to make yourself happy. No, you don't have to love yourself completely to be in a relationship. But yes, you have to love yourself at some level, you know, or you learn to love yourself in a relationship. But also you can't enter a relationship hating yourself. There's just so many paradoxes. And I would just say that people just need to find sort of the balance for themselves. And like the reality is that we should be adding value to each other's lives. We should want to root for our partner and we want to see them win and we want to see like their path be just like paved with gold and we will do anything to help them, but we can't actually pave the path for them. And that's the key difference. And we can't expect that from someone.

Right. I think that's. You're speaking my language right now because, you know, over the last couple years of doing my own healing journey, I was just like, if I enter a relationship again.

Right.

It was kind of like if, you know, because I was just like, I'd rather be happy and on my own. No, but I love intimacy and connection. It's like, okay, I want it, but it's like not at the expense of like suffering.

Yes.

And abandoning my values and my vision, lifestyle, my needs. But I was like, I just want to make sure that I'm always taking care of it and loving myself and taking care of myself and creating my own joy and happiness and fulfillment independent of a relationship, never needing someone. But the way they show up can just add to that joy. Add to that happiness. And I want to be in a relationship with someone that is a joyful person. It's kind of like their baseline.

Yes.

Because they process stuff. They've been on the healing journey. They're whole. Not perfect, but whole and continuing to improve. But they're just. Their baseline is joy.

Yeah.

When someone's baseline is joy, you don't have to do something to make them joyful. They are joyful.

Yes.

And so it's getting your place to a state of peace and joy and fulfillment in your own life so that you don't need the person to make you happy.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then you're not going to self abandon, I think, or diminish your self worth in the relationship. If someone's abusive or acting out of character consistently, you're not going to stay in that. You're going to be like, well, that doesn't work for me.

And that's really the key point. Because honestly, what's epidemic in terms of what I see personally is just low self esteem and people. It's sort of like two camps. I see people either being selfish and not appreciating their partner, not giving enough to their partner, not giving enough, or I see the people tolerating too much bs.

Right.

And so to the people who tolerate too much, it's like something you have to do, something to raise your self esteem, something. Because the what people tolerate out there is what I've tolerated. It's unbelievable, actually. But part of that is also because people are so afraid to be alone and they're afraid to start over and.

The time invested with that last person Exactly.

Love your life single. You can really love your life single, but also really want a relationship. I don't want to discourage. I think that life is better in a good relationship. It just is. And getting love from a partner and sharing and having that exchange is really profound. But you also have to give up your preferences to be in a relationship. I tell single people all the time. You want to lie in your bed, diagonally, go for it. All that secret single behavior, enjoy it. Because when you're in a relationship relationship and you're living with someone, you can't necessarily do that, but you have to really, like you said, being in the position where you'd rather be single than just in something subpar, that is an amazing position to be in.

Yeah, it's huge.

It's huge.

Are you in a relationship right now?

I'm actually not, which is wild. I mean, I guess it's not that wild.

I.

You know, so the whole reason why I do this is that I taught yoga for 20 years. And so yoga is, like, probably the most important thing in my life other than people in my life. And I had a really difficult marriage that only lasted two years. It was like, actually.

How long were you together for before?

Well, we were together two years prior to that and. Interesting. This is an interesting story. So I would say 90% was perfect before we got married, but the 10% that wasn't was so, so profound. And, yeah, I felt. Seen, Safe, love, adored. I adored him. We. We had amazing rapport. We laughed hysterically. I really like it when I make people laugh. If you can understand, I have a really dark, nasty sense of humor. So if you can understand my sense of humor, I immediately feel very connected to you. Right. And so we really connected, but there were things that I would never tolerate. And this is something like, we're cool things not working out with him. And then my mother died. So I went through a lot of tragedy to get to the place where I am now. But I'm very cool with him. In fact, I have a joke that I should probably. That he should probably send me a bill because I have this whole, whole career based on this relationship that I had with him.

The wisdom you gained from this relationship.

Oh. So I'm actually very grateful. But there is an interesting story, which is that we went to. We were about eight months into our relationship, and I felt totally in love. We were both totally in love. And I don't know what triggered this because this was a while ago, and I just don't. I just don't Think about it anymore. It's not traumatic for me. But something triggered him and he had a proclivity towards avoidance and I had the proclivity towards anxiety. And my father was very, very avoidant and shut down. So here we are.

Anxious and avoidant is not a good combination.

It's not a good combination. So it's a bad combination. But. So he was shut down over something that I have. Absolutely something that was not warranted. And we went to this show called. It was His Own Traumas, Totally his own stuff. This was not something that. I mean, I could take a lot of responsibility and have, but this is not something that I did. It was something that he interpreted. So we went to this show called Sleep no More. And I don't know if you heard of it, but it was like a thing in New York and it was really, really crazy and really cool. And you get there and they give you like these masks, like from Scream, basically, like these crazy masks. And so you. Even though if you go with someone, it's a very. You kind of get separate, they separate you. So it's a very solitary experience and everyone's behind a mask. So you're having your own experience. But on our way there, I could. He was in what would be the first of many of like these moods where he would shut down. And I didn't know what was going on back then. I didn't have the courage to say, what is going on? Like, speak up. Like, what's happened? Did I do something?

Let's talk about this.

Let's talk about it now. It wouldn't even.

Yeah, you didn't have the tools then.

Yeah, I didn't have the tools and I didn't have the self esteem then.

The courage.

Yeah, all of it. And so when we went. He was totally shut down. We were separated. But there were times where you would recognize the person because you know what they're wearing. And I would be so psyched to connect with him. And he would pretend like he didn't see me. It was like a total stonewalling. And I was so incredibly upset. And all I could think about is I got to get this relationship back on track. Like, I have to like make this better.

From that one day.

From that. From that one night because he was stoned. I knew that I was like, his feelings changed about me. I have to make sure that I. That whatever it is that triggered him doesn't trigger him again. So all this stuff came up.

So you interpreted that too?

Yes, exactly. So I. So I got really Anxious, you know, I. Low self esteem, I don't want to. Or like, it's not that it wasn't perfect, it was really bad.

If.

So in other words, if I were to encounter that today, that relationship would have ended that day.

You were like, hey, this doesn't work for me.

Yeah, it just would have ended because I would have known from a value system perspective and also from what is good for me that that is absolutely. We can, we can have fights, we can have disagreements, but that is not allowed in my world. So. So I've changed a lot. And the relationships that I've had since then, because we split many years ago, have been super healthy and super, super lovely. Just not in alignment with what it is I really want. And I am just like you. Like, I would rather. Yes, companionship is great and having someone tell you you're beautiful and lovely and friendship is great. Yeah. But what I want is, is something like, I'm looking more to the future now in a way that I haven't in the past.

What is that about emotions trapped in the body or not expressed in a healthy way that makes us sick?

It's stress. Is that issue where. It was stunning to me, that was it. A 2009 UC Berkeley study found that good relationships can add a decade to your lifespan. Potentially a decade. It was crazy. And then there was a meta review where they look at all the studies about relationships and what they found is that good relationships are second only to genetics in terms of predicting both health and longevity in humans. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like, it's so crazy. We forget that those little stressors that build up and we don't have a release valve. When we can't talk about things, we can't share things. When we can't hear that it's normal, it's okay. This is really hard stuff. You know, what was it? The issue of loneliness, the stress hormones that happen that basically cause of loneliness is the equivalent of a physical attack. Loneliness is like getting beat up.

Wow.

Yeah.

There's a difference between loneliness and choosing to be alone, to have alone time to process in a healthy way and to love on yourself and accept yourself versus I'm sad and lonely and no one cares about me.

This was some of the most mind blowing research that I looked at in here was that issue of what you're describing is the difference between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness. This sounds totally crazy. Loneliness before the 19th century basically didn't exist.

We didn't have time to be.

We were so enmeshed in societies, religions, tribes, nations, we always felt a part of something. Even if we weren't close to people, and we usually were, we felt we were a part of something. So Fay Alberti, who is a researcher at University of York, she looked back and you Basically, before the 19th century, you can't hear it mentioned because we were always embedded in a group. When you hear the word lonely, it meant something by itself. It didn't have the negative stigma, really. It wasn't until literally Frankenstein that you heard lonely in the 19th century start to be used as a negative thing, because we had an explosion of individualism, which unlocked a lot of power, a lot of great things in the world, but we felt separate. And second crazy thing, John Cacioppo, leading researcher on loneliness, what he found was that people who are lonely and people who are not lonely spend the same amount of time with others. Lonely people don't spend any more time alone. What he realized was that loneliness is not about proximity. We've all felt lonely in a crowd. You can be in Times Square on New Year's Eve, feel alone and still feel alone. You feel alone on the subway. Loneliness isn't lack of proximity to people. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. When you go on a business trip, you might miss your friends and family, but you know they're there, you know they're missing, you know they don't care about you. You don't feel lonely. You might miss them versus if you're surrounded by people, but you think nobody cares. That's when you feel lonely. It's how you feel about those relationships.

How do you shift that feeling? And what if they really don't care? You know, maybe it's all in your head and you're like, yeah, they don't care about me because they're not doing what I want or something. But how do you shift that to create a deeper connection and feeling about, you know, the few key relationships you have, at least?

Yeah, I mean, that's where we want to get into time and vulnerability, those two costly signals. Spending more time, spending time is one of the most powerful signals in a relationship, because time is all the stuff that Dale Carnegie talks about, is easy to do. That's why we like it. That's also why manipulators like it. How you show somebody that they're really special is by costly signals. If I spend a lot of time with you, if I spend an hour a day with you, I can only do that for 24 people. I've got to sleep. That shows you're special. There's no way around that. Time is costly vulnerability. I'm telling you things that could be used against me. Those are powerful signals. And when people reciprocate those signals, we know they're serious. If they're making the time, if they're saying things that maybe they shouldn't say, then these are people who are making the effort. The other thing that's really powerful, I found this fascinating. This was just a study that just came out in 2020, was that if you're not feeling supported enough in your relationships, an easy thing you can do is introduce your friends to one another. Because the issue is there's a synergy. I think that word's often overused, but there's a synergy in that, in the sense of having one off relationships is great, but once you start introducing your friends, you're creating a community your friends can coordinate. Hey, Louis is feeling down, we should take him out now. They can work together. And you're creating your own group, you're creating your own community. That is so much more powerful than a lot of one off relationships where people can't share information and say, this is what he needs right now.

That's interesting. That's something I've kind of done intuitively for the last 15 years, which is creating individual relationships and then saying, hey, let's do a dinner together, and kind of bringing everyone together and trying to go beyond that by saying, here's why you should know this person and here's what you can connect on and here's what they're working on and here's how you guys could align on this thing. And I think the more you put people together who can benefit each other, whether it be as friends or in business or career, you're adding value to more other people in multiple ways. Like you said, the synergistic ways, I think that just deepens your connection to people too.

Absolutely. I mean, in terms of the emotions, there's no doubt of having these friends. But also in terms of life success. It's like Mark Granovetter did research on weak ties and where usually the things our friends know, we usually know. But when you go one degree out, those are the things we're not hearing about. Those are the things we're not connected. When you're connecting people with other people that are one degree out from you, they're getting new ideas, new potential, new job offers, new opportunities. You're creating this whole network.

You're the center, you're the champion of all these relationships. And Opportunities.

And that is so valuable for both sides. It's so valuable because it's so much easier for somebody else to just say, sure, I'll come to dinner, than having to organize it themselves. People are really going to appreciate that. But also, as you being the hub of the network, then all roads lead.

To you, and it usually pays dividends long term. Not that you're trying to get something out of it necessarily. And I think when it's only transactional, it doesn't feel as good.

But.

You know, I've had multiple people that have gotten married and now have kids because I've connected the dots somehow to them, whether they came to an event that I put on or I introduced them or, you know, something. And so it's like you're, you're creating a legacy in the world.

Yeah.

Whether you're, you know, close with them or not, you're still making an impact in people's lives. And I think good things tend to happen when you impact people in that way. Long term.

Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're thinking, you're, you're starting with something positive. You're starting with good intent and you're reaching out, doing the work. It makes such a difference. It's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of places that say they want to have impact. It's like, no, let's have positive impact. Let's, let's focus that a little bit more. And it's like, to do that makes all the difference in the world. I mean, not only in terms of, again, relationships and love, but also in terms of career. One of the biggest, biggest tips that's come out of research in terms of people networking is there are some people who are super connectors. There are some people, if you look at your contact list, you will see they introduced you to a disproportionate number of the people you know. And reaching out to them is a very high leverage way to network better. By creating these things, you're not only bringing people together, doing warm things, you may be helping these people get jobs and opportunities because you're the super connector. Yeah.

Keith Ferrazzi wrote a book called Never Eat Alone, which talks about, you know, never having a meal by yourself, but always finding people to connect with and seeing how you can offer value and connecting the dots from previous connections and the power that comes beyond just personal relationships, but in career, business as well, with that network.

Yeah. There's recent research by Nicholas Apley that basically showed we're often Reluctant to even talk to strangers in a, you know, in a Starbucks or something like that. We often feel like, you know, oh, we're going to annoy them. And the truth is that's not the case. When they surveyed people just saying something small.

Wow.

Lines long, or how can you relate to them? We usually feel better. And when we think about it, like again, to specifically, yeah, when I did say something, that person said something. We overemphasize the negative. Most of the times when we just say something nice, we reach out, we feel better, they feel better, and sometimes it blossoms into an actual friendship.

Sure, sure. This is powerful stuff, man. I'm curious. How do you know, how does someone know when they are truly in a loving partnership? And this is real love versus chemicals and illusions of love?

I mean, first and foremost, there's going to be the issue of time. For the first 18 months, you, you are going to have the chemicals. But the truth is the chemicals usually die down. You know, it's like, so in longer relationships, you know, you are gonna, you are gonna get away from the craziness. But what's really powerful. I was surprised when I looked at the issue of love as a feeling. Love makes us nuts. Love makes us absolutely crazy. When you look at the historical documents, go back to 3000 BC and each.

Ancient wars and killing and this and that.

Love was described as a malady. It was described as a sickness.

Really?

Yes. Because it was literally a diagnosable illness. And to this day, if you lost. Yes, because we get so nuts.

But again, we don't have reason. Right. It's like you gotta have some ability to not react and explode.

Yeah.

Over love.

And I was just like, why would that. And the truth is, it makes sense. We talked about earlier in friendship with costly signals. What is a more costly signal than I am running around like a maniac thinking about you all the time and doing everything. I'm not behaving rationally. What does that. That tells you? I am invested. I am serious. I am incapable of callously taking advantage of you because I'm crazy. And they actually tested this. They looked at countries and communities where it was very easy to just ghost someone. And countries and communities where it was very difficult. They had strong network ties. It was hard to ghost. What do you see where it's easier to ghost people? The. The signal of love, the craziness of love is greater because your brain realizes fundamentally I need to boost the signal to show the other person I am nuts about them. Love is stronger because it has to Communicate. It is a valuable sense. It's a valuable sense to the other person that you are literally crazy about them. And this gets more to your point. The issue of what predicts long term success in a relationship is you isolate part of that crazy idealization. Idealization seeing that person as better than they are is not only predicts happiness in a relationship, it predicts the duration and the success of a relationship.

If you see your partner or potential partner as better than they actually are, makes it a better relationship or worse relationship.

It makes better. It makes it better. You need to see them as better than they are. That is, it is the greatest hallmark of love.

Really?

Yeah. Because we can get cynical. Everybody has flaws. When you start making negative assumptions about your partner, that's not a good sign. There's a strong correlation between how people feel on their wedding day and how things work out is when people have second thoughts. Divorce is much more likely versus when people have that idealization. You've heard it. When people first start dating, they are over the moon. This person has done everything. They've won Nobel prizes and gold medals. They are unstoppable. Having some of that and keeping some of that a little bit of a rational positive. Because the thing is, when they, when they dive down and do the research, these people are not deluded. You realize your partner is imperfect, but you're always willing to give them the.

Benefit of the doubt.

You always believe they have the potential. You always believe it's that issue of when they do something wrong, they must be having a bad day, you're compassionate, you give them benefit of that versus the idiot did it again.

Those are the things.

So that idealization, seeing that person as better than they are, being able to sustain that is a great sign of true love.

What do you think are the boundaries that people fail to set the most in these relationships that don't work and that continue not to work over time? What do we fail to set once we realize there's massive break breakdowns?

Yeah, I mean, I think, and this is the real challenge is that when you're in a relationship breakdown or things aren't going well, and I hear stories like this from thousands of people all the time, right? Where it's like I the in heterosexual relationships, the wife is doing all of the household management and all of the child care and the, you know, expectations are only placed on her. And it's like she is the default for everything and she has to ask her husband to help and pitch in and babysit his own kids. And she comes to me and says, like, I don't know what to do in this situation. The challenging thing is that at that point, you can't solve that with a simple boundary.

Right.

The boundary has to be like, I am going to go to therapy myself to explore what my options are. Because at this point, the way this relationship is working is not working for me.

Right.

But if we go back to like, some of the things we've talked about even earlier on in a relationship, I think setting a boundary, like right away in a relationship, immediately, even before you start dating, can be a super good litmus test for how well you can communicate. So it's like we're talking about going on a first date and it's like, oh, by the way, I don't drink, so I'd love to meet you for happy hour. I'll just have like a tea and see if there's pressure. See if that is weird. See if they give you like pushback on that or you can talk about, you know, before you get intimate. Like, by the way, you know, this is what I said to my, my husband. Like, by the way, you're wearing a condom. And until we both get STD tested and like swap tests, that's going to continue. And like, if that isn't respected, that's an immediate relationship ender for me. Like, that's it. Right. So I think it can be helpful early on to set boundaries in relationships just to see how you discuss them, how you each view them. Do they see it as selfish? And if so, can you have that conversation? Do they push back? How do they handle when you navigate that pushback? I think that can be really important.

What about with children? You know, as a parent, I don't have kids yet, so I can't relate to that. I can relate to my experience as a kid being obnoxious to my parents and probably driving them crazy and understanding that it's challenging for parents. How do healthy conscious parents create healthy boundaries with kids without neglecting their kids emotions, feelings and needs?

Yeah, I think the two are definitely not mutually exclusive. So I think the first thing that you can do as parents is model healthy boundaries for your kids. So it is me, you know, saying to my husband, like, hey, I need a half an hour of alone time. I'm going to go to my room. I'll come back out, you know, after I'm feeling a little bit more refreshed. Like when my son watches us do that, he recognizes that, like, in this family it's okay to say no, that people don't get mad when you say no, that Mom's taking responsibility for her own feelings. So we've been modeling healthy boundaries. But I've had boundaries with my son from the very earliest age, and I have set boundaries on his behalf. So one of the earliest boundaries I set with him or for him was when you visit grandma or grandpa or Nana and Pop Pop and or Auntie Kelly, and you don't see them very often. You don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. We have to be polite. You didn't say goodbye and say thank you. But you can hug, you can kiss, you can wave, you can fist bump, you can make funny face. You can, you know, high five whatever you want, but you don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. And so we had this, like, issue once with my mom where she was.

Like, I really want to hug.

Like, I haven't seen him in such a long time. I only see him a few times a year. And I'm like, I get it, but he doesn't want to hug you, and, like, you need to respect that. And she did, and I recognized that it was disappointing for her. But also what I taught my son was that you have agency, and if you don't want to hug, you don't have to. And so now, you know, I'll come sit next to him on the couch when he's nine, and I'll be like, hey, do you want to watch naked and afraid and, like, do a little snuggle? And he'll be like, I'd love to watch the show, but I don't want to snuggle.

That's fine.

Yeah, that's good.

Wow.

So we've raised him in the culture of boundaries, and he feels now comfortable setting boundaries with me. And he, you know, boundaries really create a sense of safety for kids. They do, because they, you know, realize that the adults in their household are taking responsibility for their own feelings, that boundaries are not about pushing other people away. They're about, you know, creating that sense of, like, family in a way that works for everybody. And I think they feel really safe to my kid.

And what are the biggest boundaries you've had to create for yourself? Healthy boundaries for you individually, separate from family and loved ones and zillions.

I think boundaries with yourself are so incredibly powerful because they only rely on one person to hold them, and you can immediately reclaim your time, your energy, your capacity, your mental health, your physical space and sense of safety. Like, that's an immediate benefit from you setting one boundary with yourself. The challenging thing is that if you don't keep that boundary, like, what's going to happen, right? If you say to yourself, I'm not going to check my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, which is one of my most beloved boundaries and the one that I've set for many, many years and the one that I still hold to if I do roll over and check my phone before I go to the gym and do my meditation, like, nobody's going to jump out of the closet and slap the phone out of my hand. So. But, you know, I will know. And what's going to happen is that there will be a massive ripple effect to future Melissa.

Really?

I think about future me all the time.

Tell me more.

What is the decision that I'm making right now and how is it going to impact future Melissa? Because current Melissa is going to be so, so happy to just, like, stay up late and not start her bedtime routine and just do, like, one more, you know, show on Netflix. But what will this mean for future Melissa? She's going to be really mad at herself because she didn't get to bed on time. And then she's going to fall asleep late, and then she's probably not going to have as good a night's sleep. And then when she wakes up tomorrow, she's not going to be pumped for the gym, and she might even skip it because she's going to be tired if she skips the gym before she does this interview. She was. She's, like, not going to be a good guess because she won't feel. Feel grounded and centered. Like, when I play it out that way, it makes it a lot easier for me to be, like, go to bed. Because future Melissa will benefit. So I have boundaries with myself where I'm not checking my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, not checking my phone in, like, the half hour before bedtime. So I'm not checking Twitter one more time or email one more time. I have really strong boundaries. Like, when I'm out of office, I am out of office. Unless something is on fire, you do not call or text me. And I will not be checking text messages or emails. So, you know, I think I set boundaries with myself pretty often because I know that they can be, like, an instant sense. They can give me an instant sense of freedom, and nobody else has to even worry about it.

What's the boundary you set in the last two years for yourself that has given you the most Benefit.

I think I've become more rigorous about what I say yes to in terms of work opportunities to.

Good.

It's hard as an entrepreneur not to feel like you have to or should say yes to everything. And like if I don't say yes to this, maybe they won't ask me again or who knows what this like lunch or coffee could turn into. But I think, I don't know if we talked about this but like 4 years ago I got a concussion. I'm still going through post concussion symptoms that are triggered by air travel. Events like this, speaking events in person, events like any kind of stressor can set my concussion symptoms off. And that forced me me to become more rigorous about what I say yes to. So now again I kind of have this automatic pause before I say yes to anything. Even something that I think I'm super excited about. It's like quick pause. Can you work this into your schedule? Will you have capacity to do this? What else is this going to push off your plate and is that acceptable to you? What are the things you're going to have to make up when you get back home? And then once I think about that, I either say yes or no. And if I say no, it's because again, I know I'm serving future me. I can be disappointed, but I can also be happy that I've checked in with my own needs so that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple years and I think it's made a big difference in my overall capacity.

Wow.

Yeah.

What boundary are you to set for yourself next year that you haven't done yet?

I don't know. I'm not a New Year's resolution person. I tend to just take on these like self improvement things as I stumble. Yeah. Like I started my cold shower experiment like in February two years ago, just randomly. So I'm not a New Year's resolution person. And there is no one size fits all for boundaries. I won't know what my needs are next year until I get to next year. And I'm in the moment and I go, you know, my context has changed, my capacity has changed, my goals have changed. Do I still, I'm always reevaluating. Do I still need a boundary here? And if so, is this the boundary that I need? Because they should be flexible and I shouldn't keep a limit in place that no longer serves me.

Yeah.

So. So I don't know. Ask me next year.

What do you see? Since you've been working through this book for a while now, you've heard a lot of conversations from people single in relationships, family challenges, different things. What do you see that society needs in general to create better and healthier boundaries around?

Welcome to my favorite TED Talk.

It's just with social media, with work, with, you know, all the political stuff, just what. What do people need in general moving into next year, you think?

I mean, we need, honestly, so much of the root of why boundaries feels like such an icky subject to so many people, and I'm. I will say, especially women, especially moms, is because we have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and toxic masculinity, which comes from the patriarchy and religious influences and diet, culture and trauma and the media. We have been conditioned for my entire life, and even going back further than that to not have needs, to not have needs, to be selfless. Especially as a mom, we are praised the most when we are putting everyone else's needs and feelings and wants and desires above our own. Like, we're not even on our own list. And if we're on the list, we're at the very bottom. And then when we do have a need and we speak it, we either hint about it because we've been told we can't be direct and then we're disappointed that people aren't reading our minds, or we're direct about it and we're told. Told that we're selfish or we're called a. Or any of those other monikers. So we have been conditioned to not have boundaries societally. And I think there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do around what it means to have needs and to have those needs feel worthy and the fact that, like, you, of, you know, your own volition, are valuable enough to advocate for those needs and then to remember that we have the power to advocate for those needs in a way that doesn't involve the other person. If I set a boundary with you, it can't be dependent on what you choose to do. The boundary I set has to depend on me, the actions that I am willing to take in our relationship to keep myself safe and healthy.

Give me an example around that.

We're in an argument and it starts to get really, really heated. And I say to you, please don't speak to me like that. It's really making me feel unsafe. I don't like it when you use those words. It's getting personal and we're not focusing on the subject at hand. And you are really mad and really triggered. And you kind of keep going with that. Right. I can't depend on you to change your communication style. The only thing I can do is say, I won't stay in this argument if this is how we're going to continue to talk about it. I'm going to take a 10 minute break. After 10 minutes, I'll come back to see if you're ready. So I can't depend on you. If I go to my family's house and they're talking about politics and we don't agree with politics, I can say, could we change the subject, please? And if they say no, then I have to enact my boundary, which is, okay, I'm going to go for a walk.

Yeah.

Remove yourself.

I'm going to leave the table. Yeah. So all of that to say, we have a lot of unlearning to do about what it means to have needs and to advocate for those needs and to speak clearly and what that means as a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a man to speak clearly and directly. Right. A man says it and he's decisive. A woman says it and she's aggressive. There's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do, I think before we can get to the point where we don't automatically think of boundaries as selfish or controlling or manipulative.

What I'm hearing you say is the boundary doesn't rely on another person's reaction or if they agree to it or not. It relies on you.

Yes.

Removing yourself in a conscious way from the situation.

Yes.

Independent of how they show up.

Correct. Now, I'm initially going to phrase most of my boundaries as a request.

Yes.

Right.

Because you didn't know I had a limit. So I'm going to say to you, hey, I need. I could use a half hour of alone time. Would you mind if I go in my room or, you know, would you mind taking the dog for a walk or something? Right. And if you say no, then my boundary is to remove myself.

I should be asking, is this relationship worth it? Instead of is this relationship perfect? And I was asking myself, because I've seen Instagram relationships so long, I've never had one and I've seen movies and everything else. I thought any sort of issue within a relationship was fatal. And I'll be honest with you what the issue was. We had a problem in bed, and I've never encountered that before. And it. I think it's emasculating for a guy when your Partner might not have the same interest in sex as you. You do. And I think I was emasculated by it. I think I didn't understand it. And she, probably because I wasn't creating a safe space, she did not want to talk about it.

Right.

And for me, that felt at the time like a dead end. Like you've hit like going through a maze and you hit, you hit a cul de sac, as we call it, like a dead end.

What would a safe space have looked like for you to create?

Just honestly to ask some very thoughtful unloaded questions and to listen.

You weren't willing to do that. You just didn't have the tools or tools.

I did not have the tools. I didn't, I didn't know how to communicate. And communicate is. Communication is foundational to everything. It turns out most of the time, as I've seen in my life, whether it's one, when I dropped out of university, my mom didn't speak to me for three years. Whether it's my business partner becoming an alcoholic and only finding out when he was downstairs lying on the floor as a drunk, or whether it's in that situation that we tend to all want the same thing, but we don't have the tools to communicate. So it sounds like we're pulling in different directions. And I think in that situation, again, it was one of the moments in my life where I learned the importance of mature communication and creating. Creating a safe space and understanding that what someone self prescribes as their issue is not necessarily their issue. And sometimes people don't know what their, their challenge is.

Right.

So someone might say to you, I don't like sex. And for you, that again, it feels really binary. It's like, well, you either like it or you don't, so. And you're not willing to talk about it. So it's over. But things as I learned in this case are often much more deep and complex. And sometimes people can't self diagnose what's going on with them. But if you create a safe space together, you can go on the journey to understand what that actually means. I wasn't willing to so broke up with her.

Wow.

I'm back with her now.

It's the same relationship.

Same relationship.

It's her.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I thought this was a new 100, marry her 100, be my wife. Because it's. Yeah. I mean I've never met a person like her, but wow.

So this is that, that relationship then and you ended it how long did you enter for?

A year. Come on. Yeah, I ended up for a year.

Were you in touch at all? Was little conversation, really.

So she. The pandemic happened, and she had some troubles in her life that she wanted to go, you know, figure out. So she flew to Indonesia, she flew to Bali. And the longer time went on, and the more time I had on my own, and I'll be honest with you, the more time I had to try all the wrong things and have them fail me.

Right.

You were like, okay, yeah.

I was like, oh, that was the one.

Oh, wow, that was the one.

And I became sure. And sure as the days went on that I would never find a love like that. I would never. And I was sure of it. I was utterly convinced I had made a mistake and that I was the problem. And although I didn't know this, the. The issue we had in our relationship would be fixed. I went to the airport, got on a flight, and I flew 22 hours to Indonesia to, more than anything, apologize.

Wow.

Because I felt like I threw a good thing away for a bad reason. And I hurt. I know I hurt her. And I knew that even though I didn't think she would be interested in me or take me back or anything like that, I knew that if I am to be the mature person I am, my apology, if it's not manipulation, should come without an expectation.

Right.

You see what I mean? Because when apologies come with expectation, they are just manipulation. So I thought, you just have to go there and say what you mean and leave it there and then come.

Back, not try to get in a relationship with her, but just do it for the sake of you being a good person.

Exactly.

And owning up to your part of the street. And then.

Because then I could have another relationship with someone else and start the record personally in myself that I am now the mature person who's willing to communicate and be humble and admit his own deficiencies so I could then be the person I wanted to be for the next person. And it just ended up being. Go. Being a very. Probably one of the most interesting moments of my life, what. How that situation played out, because I got there, she was being very distant with me.

Does she know you were coming.

Last minute? So when I was in, like, the Doha airport, I said, oh, by the way, I'm gonna be in Bali, so be nice to see you. She was very distant with me. She wouldn't come near me. She was, like, sat, quite frankly, far away from me when we met with some friends. And then as the Days went on and on. She said, look, I don't know what the future holds. I'm gonna, I'm staying here. And. And I could see. So I apologized to her anyway. Then on the second, the next day, by the way, that was an ego blow. That was a moment where my chimp brain showed up and said, take revenge. Play. Play a game, Try and get her back. But fortunately, by this time in my life, the other part of me that had, that knew I had self sabotaged myself with my ego for years and that the games had always failed me. Manipulating someone has always failed me. Abandoning my, like, character and integrity has always failed me.

The chase and then all of that.

Had always failed me. So in that moment, which is, I'm going to stay here in Bali, super graceful and nice. Thank. Thankfully, I see all of these things like a balancing act and it's like, which force will win? You don't have to be a hundred percent mature, but if you're 60, 40, and that, and that's the words that come out your mouth, that's a good place to start. And fortunately, in that moment, my maturity won. The next thing is, she sits me down the next day and goes, I've been sleeping with someone since we broke up.

Zing. And I'm seeing that pressure, how you're.

Gonna show up with that pressure. And again, my chimp shows up. It says, finish her. Oh, my gosh. It says, manipulate games, tell her off. Make her feel like, oh, wow, that's my ego. It goes, go on, Steve. But fortunately, I gave her a kiss on the cheek. I was like, I understand, I understand. We can't. We're in a co working thing. We carry on doing our work. By the way, at this point, we're not romantic, so we're not right. I'm just. Baby, it's okay. Give me a hug. Thank you for telling me. You didn't have to tell me. And I literally looked her in the eye. I remember saying to her, she'll listen to this. I was like, I know that must have been hard to say to me. So thank you because you've told me. You didn't have to tell me, but you've told me. Because X, Y and Z, we carried on working.

Yeah.

Next day, this is where you ended it with her.

It's been a year. What's she gonna do?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Of course, your ego doesn't care if you ended it, if it was your fault. Your ego gets triggered. Especially I think this is quite a masculine thing from what I've read as well. We get triggered in a different psychological way because of various prehistoric reasons which I won't go into. And then the last thing was I realized that she was going to stay here. She wasn't interested in me. So I was going to leave and I sent her this really wonderful message and a voice note which I've played before publicly on stage. And I said, I'm leaving Bali on Saturday, but listen, you're on your journey. It's been amazing to see you. Etc, Etc. She responds and she says she's surprised, but she says, okay, okay, can I see you before you go? My ego shows up. Don't let her see you before you go. That's your last chance of getting a victory. Do not let her see. Make her feel bad. Play a game. Oh, man, you've got the power vested she's giving you.

She wants something.

Yeah.

You take it away.

Take it away from her. That's one last ego restoring victory. And then reflection, asking myself who I am and who I want to be, what my values actually are and what has succeeded and failed me in the past. I said, sure, you can see me before I go. And in those three days, everything changed.

What happened?

She made plans for us over those three days. It was like. And I'm not sure if this is a karmic thing or a spiritual thing or whatever it is, but it was like she realized I'd finally learned how to love her. And it was like life had sent me these three tests to check if I still had that ego, if I was still immature, if I was willing to hold a safe space. And because I passed those three tests those last few days, everything changed. And we have been wildly in love ever since. To the point where I'm sure she's my wife. I'm sure we're gonna. I could have ruined that. On three occasions. There was three challenges.

Like she was testing you. Whether she was thinking of a test.

Or not, she would never think of it.

Right.

She's too pure, she's too authentic.

It's the human experience to say, well, I don't fully trust this. Okay, I'm gonna. Maybe not thinking, but it's just the body's response.

Probably.

Yeah.

It just comes out.

It taught me something about the nature of.

She would know. If you would have reacted differently in any of those three, she'd have been like, something's not safe here. Like, she would have not trusted you to be able to want to get back in a relationship.

But is the world not doing that to all of us in all facets of our life. Is it not sending us tests whether it's the barista who you might be rude to that day that turns out to be the daughter of the person that you end up going and trying to pitch business to in three years time is life not testing us at all times to see what we're ready for and what we deserve? And that's kind of the broader picture. Lesson I learned was like Mel never had to change. In fact, any. Nothing externally needed to change for me to get the results I'd always been looking for in my life. I had to change. And then the world sent me things. And this sounds very woo woo and I'm the least woo woo person you'll ever meet. The world sent me a different set of things. It said, because you've changed, we're going to mirror a different set of results. That old Einstein quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results. Yes, you've taught me this as well. Because if you have a huge amount of self responsiveness when it comes to your relationships, you say, I did that. I said this to you last time we spoke. When you're talking about your past relationships that have failed, you said, but that's on me. And you say, because I picked them. And I think about that so much because I had my hairdresser come to my place in LA the other day and he walks and starts cutting my hair. Says, my girlfriend, she's not really interested in me. She's been, she, you know, she's been talking to a lot of other guys and she's been going for this guy just because he's got money. And he walked in and when he walked in he had this $2,000 sneakers on a Louis Vuitton bag dripping in diamonds and gold. And I thought, you've got what you deserve. And people hate that. The concept that the people that they've attracted into their life, the results they've attracted into their life are a mirror of who they are. And I said to him, I said, well, what did she do? Oh, she's, she's a hostess in a nightclub. Okay. Like how did you meet up? Well, I was in, you know, I was at a, at one of the tables in the nightclub and I was one of the big spenders. So they put on my table.

So you're attracting from that space.

Yeah, that's what you've attracted. So if you did some work on you to figure out why you need to add diamonds all the time, where that comes from, that need for validation or whatever it is. You could drop the diamonds, you could stop buying the Dom Perignon in the nightclub, and you might end up in a different environment and attracting someone else to for other reasons and values.

What happens when we don't show our 100% authentic self to someone in the beginning and we reveal that 612 months later?

What happens?

They're really shocked. I didn't know you were like that. I had no idea. Because they've fallen in love with a version that you showed them that isn't even you. And we forget the truth. Vulnerability is the basis of friendships and indeed relationships. When you're vulnerable, you know, people love you for you when you're sick, when you have a bad day, they would say, then you know who your friends are. But if you pretend you're okay. I see that a lot with people who run a business always pretend everything's fine. They never tell anyone they're lonely. And then we realize, like that great DJ who killed himself, was it Avicii?

Avicii, yeah.

Who.

Who never told anyone, I'm falling apart here. Is it not Bon Jovi? Who was it? Van Halen. Eddie Van Halen. There's so many people in the media who think, I've got to pretend I'm gray. I can't say I'm lonely, I'm sad, I'm lost. They often let you know through their songs. Look at Prince. I mean, that's so sad that he was so lonely. But they feel that if they tell us, we'll see them as weak and needy. When in fact, the basis of friendship is if you're vulnerable. And I am. I like you because you're showing me who you really are. And I can love your very soul because I know you. But if I'm in love with an illusion, then it can't work because I don't even know who you are.

Wow. How old were you when you started to realize that. That you were lovable?

I think in my 20s, a long time maybe. I remember when I was 18, I had this really lovely boyfriend. But always say, I love the way you look. And I say to my mum, I haven't got a personality. I really believed I had no personal. Because I love your hair, I love your body. But I heard that I didn't have any character whatsoever. And that really bothered me. So I think, you know, it's so weird because when you change so much, you can hardly recognize a person. I'd. Looking back, I'd say, say, really? My 20s, maybe even later than my mid-20s, it was only working with my clients over and over again and seeing what was wrong with them that I began to realize, oh, that's what's wrong with everyone. Interesting. Yeah. And I began to see all of my clients, they could only ever have one of three things wrong with them.

What's that?

Well, the first one was I'm not enough. That was the biggie. I. Every client I saw, whether they were a nursery school teacher or they worked in a store, or they were a billionaire CEO or a movie star, they all had the same thing. I'm not enough. And so I've got to earn love or buy love or keep being a bigger, better deal to get love. And that's so easy to fix. You just go, you just take the not out. I am enough. I always have been, always will be. And you have to. You see, the lie is every day you tell yourself, I'm not enough. You don't know you're doing it. You get up and go, look at me. I don't look right. I messed that up. I didn't leave enough time to get here. My kids aren't perfect. Our client is annoyed. So every day, over and over again, you're telling yourself you're not enough. And you just have to take out the knot and go, I'm enough. If I'm prepared to lie to myself every single day over and over again, why not have a better life? I'm enough. It doesn't have to be true. People say, you know, my legs are the size of tree trunks. Well, clearly that can't be true. This is killing me. This is making me crazy. This is driving me and say, none of these things are true. But if you're prepared to lie, at least have a better lie. I have great coping skills. This is a challenge, but I've got it. I can rest at the weekend. I've got this, right? I've got great, great. I have great coping skills. Is a great lie, because if you say enough, it actually becomes true really fast. Something I say a lot. You're never given anything that you can't cope with. Or if I got a lot on, well, I'll rest at the weekend. I can deal with this. I've got this. This is fine. This is okay. So the first thing wrong with people is always, I'm not enough. And if you feel like that, remember you weren't born with it. You're in great company and just let it go because it's not true. The second thing wrong is this belief that I'M different, so I can't connect. And that's kind of a modern day illness. You know, if you're in a tribe, you would connect because you'd know that you're all interrelated, you look the same. But this belief, I'm different, so I can't connect.

Is, is it I can't connect or people don't understand me?

No, you connect by being the same. You know, we're primitive people, we connect by being the same. So if you're different, it's very hard to connect because you feel different. And when you feel different, you can't connect. But then you have to remember the truth. If that's your greatest fear. It's most people's greatest fear. So if you look at E.T. he connected to Elliot, but he couldn't connect and he had to go home because he had to be with his people.

So why is there such a big fear for people of connecting? Yeah, I'm different, so I can't connect. Well, isn't different good in a lot of ways? Like being unique and being different?

Unique? Well, the answer is yes and no. When you're a little kid, you go, you go, I like SpongeBob SquarePants, I like green pasta, I like Dr. Seuss. And we connect by being. I got a friend and they like what I like.

Gotcha.

So when we're little, we connect by being the same. And our DNA understands that we are hardwired to find connection and avoid rejection. Because that's how you make it. As a child, you find connection, whether it's your little kitten clinging onto your leg, your dog wanting you not to leave the house, a baby holding on so tightly to mum, you understand the truth. If I'm connected, I will survive. And if I'm disconnected, I will die. Because, you know, imagine 100 years ago, you couldn't produce milk for your baby. Or 500 years ago, we understood that connection was what made us live and disconnection killed us. Why? Every culture would practice banishment or isolation or marooning or casting out. So connection makes us survive, especially as adults. Yeah.

Okay. So we need to feel connected.

Yeah. And if you listen to all those songs I've done, if you leave me, my world is empty without you. I can't live without. I can't breathe without you. And to this day, you know, schools understand that someone trolls you, someone ostracizes you, kids, you know, cut you out of the group, they don't speak to you. So our greatest fear is if I'm different, I can't connect. But if you go back to that, everyone's fear is being different. So if you have that fear, it actually means you're the same. And connection is a choice. You can connect to anyone all over the world, whatever their race, religion, creed is. The problem is that we don't see that we still disconnect people. You know, we saw that a lot with the Boston bombers. They were so disconnected from society that that turned into hatred. And it's really important at schools to look at these disconnected kids and to bring them back. You know, if you look at the whole jail system in Finland, it's all about reconnect. We don't put them in isolation and then send them back out into the world crazy and full of anger. We reconnect. And so our greatest fear as humans is to be disconnected.

So how do we reconnect if we feel like our friend group has pushed us away, our family has sent us away, and how do we feel connected?

Well, sometimes you got to find, find a new group. I mean, you know, your family are just what, what I call your original family. You can have an, you know, first of all, you have your nuclear family. Mom, dad, brother, sister, auntie, uncle, grandma. But then when you get married, they become your extended family. And so you can always create a family. So don't go back to the old tribe that hurt you and expect them to get better. I think a lot of our problems is like, I expect my mum suddenly to become wonderful. She was always mean and hostile, but I expect her to be kind and lovely. She's got old now. Aren't old ladies sweet? No. Sometimes they're still cranky. A bitter, cranky person doesn't become sweet when they're 80. And often the belief is I got to go back to my family and make them love me. When there's a whole world out there to love you. And if people hurt you, not always intending to, and you keep going back to them, but they can't always make it better. It's like, you know, if your family had that capacity to love you a cup. But my capacity is Olympic swimming pool, I can't expect that to fill me up. I can fill them up. They can't fill up me if I have a little. If my parents have a shot glass capacity to give me love and I've got the ocean capacity. How can a shot glass fill up the ocean? Stop going back to people that hurt you and find there are people all over the world that will love you and fill you up. But we keep Going back to the hurt is expecting them to make it better. They're often so hurt they can't. And they often do things like, well, you know, people like us, we don't have that and look at those people, we're not like that. So it's. I feel different, you know, if your dad was the town drunk, if you didn't have a dad and everyone else did, if you had money and everyone else didn't, or vice versa. Versa, we buy in very early to this. I'm different, I'm different. And you're not different, you're the same. So you have to stop looking for what makes you different because that's the confirmation bias. Whatever you look for, you're going to find it. I mean, I was a principal's daughter. I felt different the day I went to school and my whole child because my dad was the headmaster. And that was actually horrible. I realize now that was not a good thing thing. But I was always looking for what made me different. And then it became a self fulfilling prophecy. I kept looking for it. Plus, you know, I could hypnotize people and that made me feel even more different. And I had this kind of ability to work out what's wrong with someone really quickly. And that's both good and bad. It's actually good. But whatever you look for, you will find whatever you are moving towards, you'll get more of. If you look for why your head is killing you, or say, I'm a bit dehydrated, I'm going to drink some water, rub some lavender on my head, I'll be fine in 20 minutes. You've got to decide where you're going. And if you look for what makes you different, you will find it over and over again. But if you say, well, why don't I look for what makes me the same, we're all the same somewhere, then you'll find that too. And it can be very hard if you're dealing with someone who's violent or aggressive or active acting out. But if you can look for what makes you the same and not different, it really changes your life because then you can't be disconnected. And you can go all over the world, you can hang out with tribes, you know, my friend was in Rwanda with the gorillas. And actually, if you think you're like them, I did this thing of walking with wolves. And the first thing you must do is you have to crouch down, you mustn't bare your teeth, you can't wear wool. And the wolf comes up and Decides that you're a wolf and then you go for a walk and it keeps rounding you back up. If you walk away, it takes you back into the wolf pack because it thinks you're one of them. And if you can make a wolf think you're one of them or a gorilla, then of course you can do it with people. But you have to start from, I'm like you, you're like me. I'm the same as you, and I can connect with you somewhere, somehow.

Yeah.

Stop looking for what makes you different to look for what makes you the same. Because it really is life changing presence.

To the quality of time. And I'm sure the more time you have, better, but it's got to be quality time. From my personal experience. Are you finding that that's what I guess women and men want as well? When you're coaching people?

Oh, these issues go both ways. You know, men, men can have the same insecurities as, as women can in these situations. And it comes down to which partner might feel busier, which one has got more to do right now. It could be like if it's a tough situation, if one person in a relationship right now and they're living under the same roof, feels like they've got tons to do and tons of purpose and tons, you know, like, I can lose myself in my mission and what I'm doing right now and their partner and be fine.

And your partner has lost the job or lost this or right.

Or. I haven't figured out what my thing is yet. I don't know what, you know, you have your mission. I don't know, like what I'm.

What do I do? I'm waiting for you to come home every day.

Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm sitting here picking random hobbies out of thin air because I feel like everyone keeps telling me now's the time to learn a hobby. So I'm like, should I learn guitar?

Right.

Or.

Or worse. I'm on social media watching everyone else's perfect relationship and everyone else thriving, and I feel less than.

Yeah, exactly. And that, by the way, that's really. We've got to be really careful of that right now. We're used to, we're used to comparing ourselves to others on social media through the lens of, you know, we're seeing their highlight reel of their, of their life, you know, oh, they're traveling now. Look at them sipping a beach on the cocktail. Look at them doing this skydive. Look at. We're seeing the highlight reel of their life. I think now we're seeing the highlight reel of people's emotions. So in quarantine, people don't have that life. Right. We've not got all of these activities that we could be doing, but we're all of a sudden seeing that moment where someone's just finished their yoga workout and they post and they're like, you.

Know.

I got this quarantine, just did my yoga, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, exactly. But.

Exactly.

But you're not seeing, like, Matthew Hussey in the moment where he's like, super grumpy and, like, irritable and just like, today is not. This is not my day and I'm not feeling it today, and I don't want to make a video today. And. And I've made a point of saying things like that out loud because I. I think it's important that people get the full spectrum of what other people are going through, because guess what? Other people are going to dark places. Other people are having their freak outs. Other people are having those moments of depression or deep melancholy. People are having those. But it's not necessarily the things that they're posting about. Especially in the worlds that we operate in, Louis, where there's a hell of a lot of people wanting to show how well they're doing under circumstances, how positive they're being and so on.

Yeah. What would, what advice would you give to people that are feeling really lonely because they just went through a breakup? Whether it be the end of the year or months ago or maybe, you know, they just went through a breakup this week in the middle of quarantine, and they're lonely, they're alone, they're emotionally hurt, and they're needing that kind of quick connection again. They're needing. They might go back to the person because they're feeling weak and they miss that feeling of connection or love or intimacy, but they know it's not the right fit for them long term. They know, but this is in a heightened state of vulnerability for them that they go back quicker. What advice do you have to someone like that?

Very hard.

Very hard.

I have so much. Firstly, a breakup, even under normal circumstances, is a tremendously difficult thing. True, True. I shouldn't say a breakup, because there are many joyous breakups we go through. But I truly. When you experience true heartbreak, it is one of the most devastating feelings in the world.

Devastating.

You're a zombie.

You're dead inside.

It's. And, and it's worse than you're dead inside. You act dead to everybody else inside you feel like you're dying, loop all day.

You can't get out of it. Yeah, yeah.

In a breakup, and this is as true now, now's no different. People need to. People need to recognize that now is just a difficult breakup on steroids.

Right.

If you're going through heartbreak right now, you're just doing it on steroids. But it's just the same emotions. So don't fret that. Oh my God, why did it have to happen now when this was going on? That's. You're giving it a big story. It's still just the same emotions of heartbreak. You're just experiencing them in a very, in a heightened way.

And you don't have the ability to rebound physically with that person or a.

New person, which we could see as a gift.

Right. Why is that a gift?

Because there are plenty of things. As my brother, Stephen Hussey, a wonderful writer for our website, as he says, in a breakup, there are two methods of recovery. There's the athlete recovery method and there's the hangover recovery method. You're going to like this, Louis.

Tell me. I love it.

You haven't heard it before, but you're going to love it because the analogy is perfect for you.

I love it.

The hangover recovery method. You think about, how do people deal with a hangover? They wake up, they eat greasy foods because they're like, oh, I just need something to make me feel better. They watch crap TV, they lay on the sofa, they wake up at 2pm yeah. All the blinds don't let any light in. Eat ice cream. Essentially, they do all of these things that are temporary, kind of pleasure and comfort, but ultimately are not nutritional and are not the things that are needed to get, you know what's needed. Massive amounts of hydration, water. Go take a walk, sunshine.

Right?

Exercise.

Yeah. Get the metabolism moving again. Get that like crap out of your system. Like, that's all the stuff that's needed in that moment. But it's can feel harder to do the things that actually going to get you out of it. Now look at the way an athlete recovers in an injury, right? You know better than anybody. You, you don't. Firstly, you still train. Whatever you can train. You don't ignore everything simply because your shoulders injured. You do what you can.

Yeah.

You do some abs, you do some legs, you do something else. Right.

Let me keep a swimming. Yeah, exactly. You eat well, you get tons of rest, as much rest as you possibly can. You do rehab where necessary, but you don't do so much that it injures what you're doing.

Yeah.

You reset your vision, you visualize what you want and start mentally rehearsing the reps, the repetition, the action steps. You mental rehearse all those things.

Right?

So now if you apply that to a breakup, the hangover recovery method is let's go and sleep with other people quickly just to get my fix. Just to feel connected, just to feel like I'm worth something. Just to feel like I'm still sexy. Let me go out and drink party. Let me eat ice cream, bad food, keep going to the flight, get on.

Tinder and all the apps, right?

Or not.

Or just hide away under the covers. Don't engage life, don't. It could be either or. But they're all hangover recovery methods because they don't make you feel better long term. They're just short term pleasure. The athlete recovery method in a breakup is you do the same as an athlete. You say, okay, my heart might be injured right now, right? My heart's offline, so to speak, but I still have everything else. So let me make sure the rest of my life is firing on all cylinders right now. Let me do everything. Let me be kind to myself. Let's maybe like put dating aside for the moment or put that. But let me go and make platonic connections. Let me go and build my relationships with my friends and family. Let me eat well, let me sleep well, let me train. Let me go and do all of these things that train every other muscle in my life so that when my heart comes back online, every other part of me is ready to go. So you've got one problem right now. You're in pain, right? But if that pain causes you to let every other part of your life go down spiral, now you've got six problems. So that, that's the part we want to avoid and only have one problem, not six. And, and you know, look, it's. All of this is easy to say and when you're heartbroken, you just feel like you feel so bad and so sick in your stomach and so nauseated all the time that you even hearing this sounds like a lot of work. And what I would say to people is a really manageable step is there's that quote, emotions are weather, let them come and go, right? And that's true. Emotions are weather. I used to think that emotions were really important. A friend of mine, Jameson Jordan, who, you know, who shoots my videos, he would always tell me whenever I would be in a real funk, a bad place, whatever, he. I would Talk to him about it. He was one of the closest people to me. And I always remember he used to say to me, like, I just think you, like, think your emotions are more important than I feel like mine are.

You put more emphasis on.

Yeah, you. You, like, think they're really important.

You think your emotions are. You.

Yeah, he would be like, you. You just seem to, like, give more weight to your feelings than I do. And I. At the time, I didn't quite hear that. And over time, I've come to understand what that means. And, of course, a lot of this is taught in mindfulness training, meditation. And so that idea that just because you have a thought, just because you have an emotion, it doesn't make it important. And in a heartbreak, just because you miss your partner, that doesn't actually make that feeling that important. Just because you feel hurt and you feel like, oh, my God, I'll never find anyone like that again. That's just a thought and an emotion that's attached to that thought, and it doesn't make it that important. And so when I was going through terrible times, when I've gone through heartbreak, one of the key lessons I learned was, okay, there's really cloudy skies right now. That's the weather, right? And it feels like that weather will never pass. But what I would begin to pay attention to is I would realize that. I would realize, oh, for the last 20 minutes, I didn't think about my breakup.

Huh.

Small wins.

I'd be like, yeah. And often you only notice it after the fact, because when you're in it, you're just. It could be that you're in a flow state with your work and that's taken you out of it. It could be that you're having a funny moment with a friend. It could be that you lost yourself in a movie. It could be you just had a conversation with your brother, your mother, whoever.

A workout. Yeah.

A few minutes could. Even if it's just five, for five minutes, you noticed I felt better. Maybe I didn't feel amazing, but I just. For five minutes, I didn't feel like I was dying.

I didn't feel suffering.

And when that happens, here's what I would say to myself. I'd be like, well, that's interesting. Notice those things as interesting. And this applies not just to heartbreak, but the depression, to anxiety, to all sorts of different emotions that are undesirable. When you notice that for five minutes of your day, you didn't feel that thing. Because here's what happens. We have our, like, whatever Is our home. Whether it's depression, heartbreak, anxiety, sadness. We have our home that we go to 90% of our day. And when we feel that, we focus on it so intensely that it becomes very difficult to get out of it, because we are focused on that 90% the whole time. And what we don't acknowledge is this interesting window in the day where we didn't feel that. And that window has some clues. Has some. There's some truth often in that window, that 5% of the day where you felt all right, there's some truth there that's waiting to be discovered, enlarged, held under a microscope. And what I would do is when I would feel better for five minutes, I'd go, well, okay, so what did that. If nothing else, what did that prove? It proved that it's possible for me to feel better. I had a reference point for the fact that I could feel better. And then you go, well, if I felt better for five minutes, if I even felt better for a minute, let's make more of those. What was happening? How did I do it? I might not be able to get my day to the point where I even feel good for a quarter of the day right now. Right. That might be an unrealistic goal. But if I had one good minute or one good hour, let me make the new goal not to be great or to be happy or to get over this. Just make more of those.

Yeah. And multiply those moments, Multiply those minutes into 5 and 10 and 20 minutes.

A manageable task. Suddenly getting over your heartbreak. You need to get over it, dude. You know, blah, blah. It's not. This isn't. That's not practical advice for someone who's going through hell. But for someone who realizes that just for five minutes, the clouds parted and they go, oh, my God.

It's like.

It's like, what?

It's like one of my favorite movies, swingers, where Mikey is always thinking about his ex and who. Who he left and then now she won't come back to him six months ago or whatever. And he's constantly talking about it, obsessing about it, suffering in pain. And then he finally learns to just put his attention somewhere else for a few minutes and then put it for an hour. And then he goes on a date with someone, and then, God, he thought about her for a day, and he was like, wow, can you. I didn't talk about her all today, you know?

And what's so important about that? Because there's a. What's really interesting about that movie is he begins to do these things that slowly start to create more moments of good weather. In his day.

He goes salsa dancing, he does this, he does activities.

Yeah, right. But what we have to be aware of, you have to respect whatever is the drug, whether it's your ex, whether it's genuinely a drug or booze or whether it's a situation that makes you feel bad or whatever. Often when we start to create more good weather, we start to take for granted that the bad weather can't appear. Now it's like.

I'm past it. Yeah. It could come back. A storm could come raging through again.

Someone, your ex could text you. And if you text back and start engaging, knowing, knowing what happens that you're. When you start in a conversation with that person again, you're going to spiral. You're not respecting the drug you got. You might have been clean for months or years, but you got to respect the drug because don't. Is when you, when you get cocky and you don't remember that there are rituals and routines and practices daily that got you to this good state, you are liable to fall back into that trap because you're, because you're blind. Don't be blind. Don't be afraid. It's not about fear. You're not fearful. You're not worried. Because you know, if I got. If I didn't die at the height of my breakups pain, if I didn't die on day two, I'm not going to die on day 22 or day 52 or day 1002. If I could deal with this at the height of its pain, I'm not going to die now. So I'm not going to be afraid of this. But I'm also going to respect it and know that there are certain things that make me feel better in my day and I have to consciously put them into my day. Because the moment I take for granted that I just feel better, that's when that thing starts creeping.

Exactly. I'm laughing so hard because we, we have a mutual friend that we've been helping. I won't say his name, but we've been helping navigate certain things in their, you know, their relationship. And you know, it just reminded me of that, of replying to people when they text you when you think you're good. Hey, don't go back into that. Make sure you stay true to what you want, what you're committed to. The athlete mindset of envisioning something that you want for your future and envisioning the right relationship or the better match or you know, how you want to be feeling and all those things and just remember.

And this is true not just for people going through heartbreak right now, but people going through solitude right now. Because there's a lot of people who right now are just in solitude. They're not necessarily heartbroken, but they are experiencing a deep kind of existential loneliness when we're on our own for long periods of time. Many people, not everyone, but many people and perhaps even most have more of a tendency to go to dark places with their thoughts. And there's a lot of people that are there that are listening to us right now that certainly can't. That, you know, the I, you know, some people might be in a hell with someone in the house, but these people in solitude are looking at that going, I'll take that right now over the hell I'm in of being constantly on my own and going out of my mind. I would say to people that, you know, the same weather rule applies that, you know, you might feel really kind of dark and lonely at points in your day, but there are other points in your day where you don't notice the good weather and pay attention to the good weather and what made you feel good. Did you just have a conversation with one of your siblings? Did you have a little group chat with a bunch of friends? Did you watch a life affirming movie? Did you read a book that made you feel connected to an author from some period in time maybe, who was also alone and writing about it? And by reading that author you go, oh my God, I feel, you know, someone else is having the same experience as me. I think that's really important is if you're in solitude right now, on your own, you connect to other people who have experienced that. Because some of the greatest figures of all time have spent inordinate amounts of time alone, have experienced the darkness that you're experiencing, experiencing, and you're in good company. You may feel you're alone and oh man, we have this solip system attitude that only one who's alone. We know it's not rationally true, we know it's not logically true, but we feel it on an emotional level. Those are moments where you have to remind yourself, I'm in good company. Not just today, but throughout time. Key figures, brilliant people, people that are far more brilliant than will ever be, have experienced the deepest, darkest existential loneliness. And in a way there's a, there is something slightly romantic. I always love when I read an author and I hear that author who's Brilliant. And who I love. And I, you know, I was just reading Bertrand Russell and you. And then you hear about something that someone suffers with or something that they've gone through, and you go, thank God. Person that I love also, you know, there's. There's that element of it that's really, really powerful. And so I think that you. You can adopt. Yes. Accept that it's difficult. It is difficult. Don't look at. Don't look at other people and think they're handling it so well. It is difficult. I'd call my dad at times when business is hard and business was messy and, like, chaotic, and I'd screwed up or I'd lost money or I'd done something. I'd call my dad and I'd be like, you know, my dad's one of my big mentors. And I'd call him and say, dad, like, I'm just so stressed. I'm so overwhelmed. This is happening. This is going wrong. I got 10 people asking me for this. And he'd say, matt, part of the problem is you don't think that other people's businesses are just as messy. It's almost like you think that you're struggling with all these things and other people aren't. He said, matt, I've been in business for, you know, 40 years. Business is messy. That is the nature of it. It is messy. It is chaotic. There are always things going wrong as well as things going right.

Right.

That's the nature. That's how it is supposed to be. And when I. When he would say that to me, I would.

It.

It didn't take my problems away. But what it made me realize is, oh, it's all right. It's not. This is normal. I'm on top of my problems. I'm beating myself up and taking it personally that I'm doing a horrible job.

Yeah. It's kind of like your dad and Jameson are saying the same thing.

Your.

Your feelings are more important. Your mess is more important. It's.

Yeah, I don't give it so much power and b. And don't give your feelings and emotions so much power. Not every emotion is a cue to do something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At the same time, accept that this is your view that, you know, in the Road Less Traveled, M. Scott Peck talked about. I think one of the first line of his book is life is hard. And one of the things that makes life more difficult for us is that we expect it to be easy. Well, that's true of relationships. It's true of business. It's true of everything. And when we have someone close to us who says, you're all right, you're at home on your own right now, and it, and you feel like it's dark and lonely and you're having these kind of existential thoughts and you're welcome, that's normal. That's. Of course you do. You're living at home on your own, in isolation right now. Of course you're feeling these things. You're not a screw up, you're not weak, you're not handling it terribly because you're having these thoughts. That is absolutely normal. And that's what makes it heroic. You're having all these thoughts and you're having all these feelings, but you're in the company of wonderful people throughout history who have experienced this, who have had just a bad, just as bad a time, who were dealing with it no better than you. But in that company, you can kind of then assume your hero's journey and go, yeah.

There were many relations in the past where I talked about values and vision and lifestyle until it was too late.

Correct.

When we're breaking down and it's like this frustration, frustration, and we're like, what are we doing? Right, but we've already chemically bonded and we've already like gotten deeper into a commitment. And you're like, well, we just lacked the, I guess, emotional courage or intelligence to have those conversations early.

And I just don't think a lot of people live their lives from that examined standpoint. Like, what are my values? What do I stand for? If you think, what do you mean, what do I stand for? I can't afford gas, you know, and so that, and I understand that, right? I'm surviving. You are surviving. But there are certain things you're willing to fight, really, really fight for and be. And that you actually do need in your life. For some people, for example, spirituality may really matter. You cannot minimize that. And if a person for whom spirituality matters enters into a relationship for someone who doesn't, it's not an indictment of either of them. But that may not be a language they can use with each other, which might leave both of them frustrated. But there's some things that you're not going to fully map on to someone else. Someone may say, I'm very comfortable with your spiritual world. I'm simply not going to participate in it. And then that will work. And they'll say, there's a. I can see how joyful it makes you. But what the struggle here, though, the main sort of pushback I'm going to have on your list is your list is predicated on two healthy people.

That's why step one is both need to be healing.

Yeah.

And so both need to be in a therapeutic journey together. That's why for me it's if one person is working on their healing journey and doing some type of therapy consistently with accountability and emotional intelligence and integrating that process and the other is not, I feel like it's going to be challenging. That's why I said I think it's.

Going to be impossible.

That's why I said enter the relationship in therapy. Which again, this is maybe hard for people to do.

I think it's great to enter a relationship in therapy. It's just not a typical third date activity.

Hey, I get it.

Instead of going out for drinks, you want to come to therapy.

This is after a few months.

This is after a few months.

But still I do think that there's some, there's some, there's a business for me to open like third date therapy.

But here's the thing. What's the alternative? Getting in a relationship where 50%, you know, go through divorce within however many years and then, and then those that stay together more unhappy and then you're suffering and you're feeling trapped and you feel stuck. And it seems like very few, few in their first marriage make, you know, create a peaceful, thriving life with, you know, challenges and bumps along the way. But it just seems like it's rare. And so if you want that, if you want a healthy, thriving, long term, committed relationship, not perfect, but a healthy one, I mean, I feel like it's rare. You got to do the extreme or the different things that people never done. I don't know. Right.

But, but you also have to value yourself. And that's the work. Right. Is for a person to be able to say I am valuable. And once. If a person can get there, all relationships in some ways have a fighting chance, not toxic ones. But because they do value themselves. So they're willing to set a boundary. They're willing to extract from unhealthy situations. They're mindful and aware of what another person they're self awareness. They are able to. And also aware of another person and, and can make judgments and statements and all of that about the, you know, in, in an informed, aware manner. And then above all else, they have empathy. Right. In either you got it or you don't. And in the absence of empathy, your whole, your whole system goes away. Right. You. Without that, this, this empathy.

Yeah.

And I think that there's, you know, I think that a lot of fear people right now in the world are engaging in pseudo healing. And I think it's just narcissistic navel gazing. And they're actually not really healing.

What does that mean?

I think is that they're, they're. They're doing whatever they're doing. Like, I meditate 75 times a day, and I do mindfulness this and I ayahuasca that and blah, blah, blah, blah, and they do all of that, but they're still really going through the world in a rather monstrous, entitled, dismissive, contemptuous way. But it's sort of like, you know what I call healing porn or recovery porn. Like, look at my recovery. I'm so recovery ish.

It's like a spiritual bypass.

Exactly.

It's a spiritual bypass. And that gives me pause. So you can't even just say, oh, they're doing all this work on themselves. I don't care how much work they're doing on themselves. How are they showing up behavior?

How are you showing up? What's your thoughts on plant medicine as a professional, in terms of a therapy, in terms of helping people heal?

You know, I'm always. I tread so lightly here because as a licensed person, I always have to recognize that my, My, my feedback will always carry weight. I am not. I'm not an md, so I can't prescribe medication. I do believe this, though. What's happening in plant medicine, what's happening in the psychedelic world is the future of psychiatry. I do, I think that there's things happening there. The early clinical trials on MDMA and ptsd, we're seeing some really extraordinary things starting to happen. And I'm enough of a cynic. And I don't know, maybe I look like I have a tinfoil hat on right now, but I do believe big pharma doesn't want this to happen because I think that there may be a lot of answers lurking there. But, folks, this is not about you going home and going to a rave and doing some MDMA and saying, oh, I'm treating myself for ptsd. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The treatment protocols for this have to be done with licensed people in controlled settings. Therapy is happening while the person is using the psychedelic. This is under the. It has to be done under the most clear formatted protocol. So this isn't just like party drug time. And look at me, I'm treating myself. This is not self medication. It's none of that. This is highly controlled. The dosage are controlled. But I do think there's a tremendous future there. I would be, it would be arrogant for me to say otherwise. And when I've talked with folks doing this kind of work, it's impressive what they're showing. I'd like to see more data. I'm not. When it comes to what I do from a practice perspective. For example, I can't say to someone, you need to be on Zoloft. I have to say I'm going to give you a referral to a psychiatrist. You will work with that psychiatrist and they will make whatever medication recommendation they have for you. But I can't, the way my license works, make clear recommendations. So if a client of mine says I want to explore this, I'll say, if you do, we just simply need to make sure you're doing it with a licensed, you know, so somebody who's doing this in a very legitimized, thoughtful kind of a way.

Yeah, I have a. I feel like, I feel like I have an open mind to a lot of things, but for whatever reason, I going to be intentional with my words here. I've met a lot of people, I have a lot of friends who've done a lots of different, you know, ayahuasca and plant medicine journeys and experiences and retreats and all these things that swear by it. Right.

Yeah.

And people I respect, people that I love and I appreciate and nothing wrong with it. But years down the road, I don't, I don't see it having like the, the healing effect that like, okay, well, you keep going to doing it and.

Right.

And.

But where is the, the pro. The progress? There's like a week or two of this euphoria.

Yes.

You know, but then you're, you're still struggling and you're relate. You're still being a bit bad. You're still, you know, and it's not for everyone that does this that I know, but I've just experienced that where people swear by it as this euphoria experience, but then, then six months later they're suffering again.

Right. It's the, if it's in, there's the bypass though.

Right.

Because the work and I, I've worked with narcissistic clients, Louis. It's not like I'm only on the survivor side. I've worked with many in my time and let me tell you, I mean that's. I, I feel like Foreman in the ring and mercifully, I'm actually really good and you know, actually more like Ali because I can get him against the.

Ropes and exhaust, and you probably created the energy field.

So you're not like, yeah, or I can take the.

Actually, no.

Foreman gets them against the rubs. Ali can take the punch. Yeah, I can take the punch. And so it's a. But what I would see is, I would say, because here's the thing. What would be really interesting. Being in the room with a narcissistic client who actually saw through the therapy. They didn't drop out. One of the interesting things for me, I was fortunate because I had. So. I had no spots in my. My practice, and I've completely downsized it and mostly ended most of it. But I. Back in the day, I'd say, you don't show up, you lose your slot, and you're not in this practice. And I'm like, oh, I don't want to lose my slot.

Right.

They don't like that. So they show up. But the fact is, is that when they'd show up, they would sometimes say, like, I would say, gosh, that thing you just told me you said to your wife, like, how did she feel? And how do you feel? No, no. They'd be like, I didn't really think about it. I'm like, let's think about it, shall we? And that's something called mental. When you have someone reflect on what they think, how they think someone feels, how they think their behavior is affecting someone. Like, put your head. Self in that headspace. So I said, how do you think your wife felt when you did X or Y? Oh, yeah, I guess that wasn't cool. Okay, so what might you want someone to do for you in that circumstance? Right. Get them to do it.

That's good.

And they would sometimes say, like, yeah, you're right. That wasn't so they weren't like, punching me in the face. They were just kind of like, okay, that wasn't cool. Would they keep making the same mistakes? Yes. Me repeatedly saying, what do you think she felt? Or sometimes I'd even say, like, that's not cool. You know, that was that. And I would often say, how would you feel if your wife saw the text that you sent? I divorced her. Really? You know, and so they.

And I said, do you see you.

Have a double standard? Here's my point, though, Louis. And one of the most. You know, this is going to be sort of a comp. What it call, like a composite of multiple people, you know, from a confidentiality perspective. But sure, I do remember working with a series of people to the end of their. Their relationships, and a couple of them said more than a few said. You're telling me to make my marriage work, I gotta listen to her talk about her emotional stuff. You know, she's getting old. I don't even like to look at her that much anymore. You're telling me that I can't. Like, all right, so I'm having. I'm just having sex with this other person, but you're telling me it hurts her.

No.

Like, okay, so you're telling me I've got to listen to her and I have to care about her feelings and. And then. And you're also telling me I have to do this with this other woman I'm having sex with who thinks I'm gonna have a relationship with her.

Please.

Like that. Okay, so you know what? I remember one of my more successful. You know, some of the more successful, successful cases, they come back and say, I divorced the wife and I dumped the mistress. Like, if this is. If I don't want to be causing this much harm. They weren't sadistic, you know, but. And after the therapy, they're like, okay, if that. If this is never going to change. I don't. I very clear. I want to do what I want to do. And I thought that was a win. They're like, I'm not changing. They were even aware they weren't going to change. Like, I'm not listening to her nonsense, and I don't like looking at her, and I don't think she's attracted active anymore. It's like, yikes.

But it's a win for her.

Other people have been released now.

That's big.

Most folks, most narcissistic folks, or people with these personalities don't stay in therapy. They're not great candidates for therapy. And my guess is, to your point about these people who all slide backwards, there ain't enough ayahuasca in the world to turn these people around. I can tell you that right now. There's not enough mdma. Mdma. There's nothing. I think everyone's looking for the empathy pill, right? That's what there's. That. It's not how it works. You know, there's just no such.

There needs to be a. You know, this could be something that unlocks you and allows you to start processing and bringing up, you know, potential wounds that you could start to heal.

To do that work.

But. Yes, but you've got to be willing to do some other therapies. That's correct. You know, external folks focused around, like a medical drug or something. No, no, you've got to do the inner work to continue that journey.

Right, exactly. And that's what I'm saying that any of the protocols that are showing any efficacy again around things like PTSD and everything have to be done in a managed circumstance. And to your point, I remember once meeting a guy swearing by whatever psychedelic that. Swearing.

This is it. Yes.

Can I curse on here? Because I'm going to tell you right now, put out. But yeah, biggest a hole.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have ever met. I mean I. He was just a jerk. Just a jerk and cold and abrupt and he was. But yet he had the audacity to say I am so empathic Now I'm like, you know, like, okay, that's not. That's not how it's usually done. And I didn't. I was not. I had no skin in this game. I was just sort of watching this conversation happen. He was talking to a group of people, but he was just a jerk for the full two days I had to spend in his presence and yet was extolling how much growth he had had. And so I don't know what that meant to him. And maybe people in his life thought there was progress. You know, Remember, I mean if you're starting from negative 10, even getting up to zero is growth. So there is that too. But it's really tough because I do think there was an interesting article in the New York Times, actually I think it was today or yesterday about this idea of like, does being in therapy make me a good person? You know, and is that what the point of therapy is? To make someone a good person? What really is a good person? So it really raised a lot of philosophical issues. Yeah.

Interesting.

And that's. It's subjective to a point, but I don't think it is. I think one thing we do know when we look at personality in general, the. I do think we do believe that compassion and respect make for a good person. But we also live in a world where people like that are viewed as suckers.

Right.

You have to have discernment around things and not just buy into what everyone's saying.

But it's not even that if you're just. Especially men. This is. And I really feel for men having to endure this. If you're compassionate, sweet and respectful, often it's not. Those are not masculine looking as weak man advantage versus the guy who is like a corporate raider was a ton of money, who drives the fast car is. Is somehow viewed as strong. That's. I mean this is an incident right now that. That's right there. The paradox of what masculinity is in our modern age. Until we can make compassion sexy, we're in trouble.

What do you wish every man could learn to develop more of in society?

Being vulnerable, with emotion, to share. To share vulnerability, to share sadness. The number of men, for example, who've been sexually abused. We don't talk about it. Yeah, exactly. And we. For women, there's actually, at least in therapy, I'm talking about the safe space, but I'm telling you, for clients I've worked with, with male clients, I remember some of them saying, I don't want to. I have somebody to talk to. Can we do the session by phone? I don't want to look at your face. So shameful, you know, so shameful. And I think that. And when I taught abnormal psychology at the university level and I was teaching about adverse childhood experiences like child abuse, child sexual abuse, what I did notice was that some of the male students were really shifting uncomfortably in their seats. And I would slow down. I'm like, listen, if you take this topic slow, it felt like the women in the class were actually had processed that a little bit more on the macro overall than the male students in the class. So I think that to hold space, to be able to feel safe with, talking about their insecurities, their vulnerabilities, their feelings, to show tears. I mean, there is nothing more beautiful when a person's able to cry because they're feeling a genuine emotion. And I think of how we pathologize men for doing that. We do. We literally pathologize. There will be. It'll be the cold open on Saturday Night Live. They'll make jokes about it, there'll be memes about it. It horrifies me. So why would a man ever be vulnerable if he thinks he's going to be turned into a. Yeah, yeah.

It's interesting. You say this, and I, you know, I wrote a book five years ago called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about my journey of, you know, letting go of anger, frustration, resentment, and stepping more into vulnerability. Right. The healing journey and. And allowing myself to be vulnerable. Talking about sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years since that happened, and just unpacking it all, what it means to be a man, how to take off these masks. And in the process of doing this, I would go to events and talk about the book, Right? And there'd probably be 50, 50 men and women who would be in the room. And I would ask at some point, in the event I'd say all the. All the women in the room, raise your hand. If you once a week, talk to your girlfriends or you have a place where you can go and talk about your challenges or insecurities or fears and things like this, of life, your body, shaming issues, whatever it might be, you can talk to someone about it. And pretty much every woman in the room would raise their hand. I say, keep your hands up. If you do this every day with your girlfriends, your mom, your sister, and pretty much all of them kind of laugh and say, yeah, I call people every day. And I said, okay. The guys in the room, raise your hand. You know, if. If you do this once a month, you talk with your guy friends and you feel safe to be vulnerable and open up about your insecurities and all these different things as well, Maybe two hands out of hundreds once a month would raise their hand and let's say, are you guys part of a church group that does this kind of, like, mandatory, like, structural thing where you feel safe in this place? And they all kind of laugh like, yes. And I go, how many of you do this once a year? No hands. And so I go, ladies, imagine going once a month, not even going once a month, not even going once a year. Imagine going a lifetime without ever being vulnerable and opening up because you feel like you're gonna be shamed. Just think about the weight. I'm not saying how men act and treat you and this and this is okay, or actions are okay, but just think about true that. And I had. And I talked to different men throughout this period who said, louis, I started the opening up with my wife, and after years, she would always say, I wish you were more vulnerable. I wish you would show emotion more, not just be stoic or angry. And some men would say, listen, I started to do this, and I got the worst response from my wife, my partner. Interesting, because they weren't available to receive me, being. They're so used to me being stoic and having it all together that when I was emotional, they needed me to be strong for their emotional challenges. Some of these men. I'm not saying all these women. So how do we get women to be. To accept of men starting to shift and be. To show emotion, to cry, to say, hey, I'm struggling. I'm really going with some issues right now, and I've got some stuff I got to deal with. How do we get women also to be like, hey, it's encouraging. It's okay, and keep a safe space so that men will continue to and not be like, well, I'm never doing that again. She made fun of me. Like, why would I ever do this? I'm gonna be strong and tough again.

And that's something that, you know, all everyone has to work on is how do say, what are our biases about masculinity? Does it. How do we. Will that change how you view a partner with that, you know, I mean, again, we, you and I. I was watching you talk about something recently where someone was talking about masculine and feminine energy and all that. I'm not so sure I agree with that dichotomy, to be honest with you. But I do think that it is a, you know, the shaming of emotion and anger being the only acceptable emotion. So men use that.

They.

They turned it into like the Swiss army knife of emotion. I'm sad, I'm going to be angry, I'm vulnerable, I'm going to be angry, angry, angry, angry. Right? It's like, it's just like the one, the One Stop Shop kind of thing. And to me, anger is an incredibly acceptable, healthy emotion. It's in, it's in the whole. But it's meant to be a whole drawer full of stuff, not just one emotion you use for everything. And that's the challenge, is that men do have emotion, anger, and that it's sort of switching that up societally, not pathologizing that and women holding space for that. But I think the other piece for men is I want them to have more deep friendships. Again, something else. I read a great article I read about a guy wrote this idea of how many men out there have colonoscopy friends. And I. That headline grabbed me, so I kept reading, you know what his. His point was?

He.

I think he had a girlfriend or wife or something, and he said, if she wasn't in my life, there's nobody to drive me home from a colonoscopy because you can't drive yourself home and you can't take an Uber home. So a person has to come and get you at the colonoscopy. It's very vulnerable. And most men don't have a. And this is like men over the age of 40, which is when you'd be getting a colonoscopy, that men often don't have friendships. They have like, let's go play golf, let's go watch a game, let's meet at a bar. But that person where women have been are really good at that. And in fact, it's why women often fare better later in life after a spouse dies. Whereas a guy, it's sort of like they'll often decline rather quickly. Some women, not because they flourish, but some women actually do flourish, but they often have a stronger support network because women are often doing that, that cultivating of. Of social relationships. And so, because that's part. That's just something that's more validated for them. And so. And I love that, that analogy of the colonoscopy friend. Like the person you call and say, can you. You pick me up from this and.

That moment, go to work.

You know, of course I'm thinking of the friends I have. Like, you give me enough notice, of course I'm going to come get you. And there's dozens of women I would do that for. And so when I even ran that by my partner, he got really sad. He's like, I don't think I have any colonoscopy friends. Yeah. And he's like, I gotta work on that.

And so, yeah, you're not just giving yourself an excuse. You're saying, when I learn, when I.

Grow, when I know better, I'll live.

Up to that standard.

But when I didn't know, and I.

Wasn'T even aware that that's how trauma and insecurity worked, how could I possibly have controlled that?

I was a good person, I was a nice person. I didn't hurt anyone.