“Vulnerability Is Scary As F*** But So Worth It” - You Can Heal Through Creativity w/ IN-Q

Emotion is energy in motion, so it has to move. And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us. You have to purge and pray.

Wow.

To be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength. It's scary as and it is always worth it. Please welcome to the stage.

From Santa Monica, California. In Q. In Q is a beast.

You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Ooh. People think that peace is a destination. Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. Don't try to make something great. Make something true. It will automatically be great.

Wow.

I think hurt people hurt people, and I was really hurt. I think we tend to love other people how we love ourselves. I was pretty violent to myself. Oh, man. Now you're gonna make me cry. Don't make me cry, bro.

If you could only share one poem with the world that the world needs to hear, what would that be? Well, welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have my good friend Adam in Q in the house. Good to see you, brother.

Thank you for having me, man.

Welcome to the the Basement of Greatness in my home studio. Very excited that you're here. I've known you for, I think, 10 years. It's crazy. I remember Alexandra was like, How did you first meet in Q? And I was like, I couldn't remember if it was a boat or at a mountain, but I'm pretty sure it was at a mountain, Summit Series at a mountain. I can't remember if it was Tahoe or something like this, but you were performing. And I remember saying, this is one of the greatest live performers I've ever seen in my life. And it's still true today, 10 years later. And ever since then, I was just like, dude, we need to connect. I need to watch you more. You've spoken as someone of greatness, I don't know, five times. You probably had the most standing ovations of any person that's ever been at my event. And I just really appreciate your genuine heart and your authenticity. So obviously, you're extremely talented, but there's so much more about you, and I'm excited that you're here. And I saw a prompt that you gave online recently. You give people writing prompts with your poetry. And you've got this journal out called the Never Ending Now Poetry Journal, which I want to talk about in a minute. But you put this prompt out that said, write a poem to your past self telling them something they needed to hear at the time from your perspective now. I'm curious if you could go to your future self and give yourself a line, a poem, to something you needed to hear now from the future, what would that be for you?

First of all, thank you for all your kind words. The feeling is more than mutual. I think the first thing that comes to my mind and heart is I would maybe do a poem about not giving up but giving in. And being willing to surrender to the surprise. of life more than needing to show up and control everything all the time.

That would be your message to your current self.

Yeah, it's something I'm still processing in real time. Like, I'm in the transition phase of that. And, you know, there can be bumps in the transition phase, but I'm definitely on the path. Yeah. So I think if I crystallize that through creating a piece of art, It would probably help me to speed it up. And that future self could reflect that back on myself now, or I could reflect it to my future self. And it would probably have a similar result, which is one of the reasons that I created the journal in the first place. Can I also ask you if you have anything that you would want to tell your current self from your future self?

I like asking these questions to other people so I don't have to answer them. But I would probably say, I guess it depends the age, but if I'm like, you know, 40 years away from now, I would probably say keep loving bigger, keep your heart open. but create boundaries for the little Lewis inside of you so he feels safe. But don't stop your generosity towards humanity and the world, even if people betray you or take advantage of you, or if that's your interpretation of their actions. Keep your heart open, but make sure you take care of little Lewis first so he doesn't feel betrayed. And I would say, Be willing to continue to go for it because I feel like I've gone for it a lot in my life. I've just gone for life. Like I'm up for the adventure. I'm up for taking the risk, for taking the shot, even if I make a mistake or fail. So I would say if you want to truly continue to live at a beautiful level, you've got to keep going for it. Like don't stop because you feel like you've got something. Like keep giving, keep creating, keep serving. and keep going for it. That's probably what I'd say.

I love that. Yeah. I think it's an amazing message. And I feel like you're leading by example for yourself and for other people on the podcast and in other ways.

I'm curious, you've been doing poetry for a long time. How do you feel? But I also know you've suffered emotionally in different areas of life, relationships, family, friends, different challenges. How do you feel journaling, writing, expressing your words or your thoughts on paper has allowed you to heal? And is there any research backing the power of journaling or writing poetry to help us transform our emotions and feel better and heal?

I'm definitely not the person to discuss research with. that is not my strength or department of interest even. But I have personal research just from my life experience. I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion, more self-awareness. And it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has. Yeah. I would say emotion is energy in motion. So it has to move. And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease, you know, disease, or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason.

Right.

So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body. And there's many modalities to do that. You can do breath work, you can do yoga, you can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice. You can, I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues, but one that is underused is creativity. You can create and move the energy. and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else and you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing personally? Like when you wrote it, you felt you were healing every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing What is that poem?

Well, I have two immediate answers that come to mind. The first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer. And the real answer is going to sound cliche, but it's everyone. And then the next one. the one that hasn't been written. Because it's the most current and in real time to my life. And whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express. It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience. So I'm not thinking what other people want to hear. I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality and I put it down on paper. and then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space.

Interesting.

So every single one is a healing process. And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing, because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.

Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, How do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So how then do we get down to the source of them? So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds? by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from?

That is a great question. What you have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time.

Give me an example personally.

Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness. and gratitude, but I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the peace. So the peace was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray simultaneously. And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen. to really like see and be seen, to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength. It's scary as f*** and it is always worth it. Wow.

So when did you write this poem about your dad?

I think I was in my mid 20s.

Really?

Yeah.

So like 20 years ago?

Something like that. 45? Yeah. Yeah.

So when you wrote it, How long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How long did it take for you to be like, I'm at peace with this. I forgive. I'm at peace.

Well, I think people think that peace is a destination or like a product. Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now, I can say, I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I am fully at peace. But one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not, in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances. I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life. And everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now. So if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am. And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe took you a long time to overcome or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome and you really wish didn't happen in the moment and maybe you still don't wish but you know you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain.

I think there's a lot of them that come to mind. I'm not going to share some of them because I'm not ready to put them on display yet. But I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal. You know, when I created the Never Ending Now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it.

I know. Remember, you know, I was there. Yeah.

Because you were one of the few people that I sent it to.

Yeah.

And was willing to trust because of your Integrity, because of our friendship, and because I love you. Yeah. And I know you've been through real things. Yeah. And so I was like, okay.

But it's scary putting it out there.

A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm taking my own medicine.

You know?

So I was like, all right, let me. I finished this thing, this work of art that was like a reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife. And then I was like, I don't know that I want to show this to people or even weirder, monetize this thing. and leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It didn't really matter what their response was. I didn't want to externalize my self-worth that way because it was so close to my heart. And then I was like, all right, I'm gonna send it to like five people. And I sent it to five people, including you. and Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me. And my criteria for sending it out was, okay, if one person hears the album and hits me back and says, hey, this was moving and meaningful to me, like this landed, then I would put it out. But if everybody was like, yeah, this is good. I really like it. I think you should. Then I wasn't gonna do it. And so Mike hit me back right away and he was like, literally, he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold, dead hands. And then I sent it to you guys and you listened to it and had, you know, similar but different response. And then I was like, all right, let me, let me lead by example, even though it's. Hard and scary.

Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists?

Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are. But the thing is, if I get rejected, if I put this project out and people don't respond to it, or worse, they really don't like it, then at least I know they don't like something that's really me. I mean, I know that the art is separate from me. It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it.

Right.

And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up rather than making something that's perfect that everybody's gonna love. And then they say, wow, I love this thing and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

Yeah, it wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How do you do that? Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years, striving over here and the courage that it took to do that. What was and is your process?

I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed. You know, this line from Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like, depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing. Something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you. And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew they would never like me. And then I would be alone. And then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life. It's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no one like me than everyone know you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of and I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people. And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now it was scary to on the other end because I didn't want to live alone and I don't want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved. You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me.

I very much relate to that. I have a line that says you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like that disguise thing that you're talking about, that character that you're playing, and you're doing it for good reasons. Survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.

Exactly.

But the thing is, it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor.

Draining. What was that poem called that you were just singing?

I think it's called Bird Song. You know, I never really, like, named my pieces until I actually put them out.

Could you share that one? Can you perform that one? Do you have that one?

Yeah, I actually do. The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal. It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation. They don't have to get the perfect pick to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me. Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski. My point is neither one of them would sell me shit on Etsy and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not.

Wow.

Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut, chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? And for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up. In this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough. I'm dismantling my We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen, they don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the wall, so if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls. You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, It's your representative they're thinking of. But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison. It's an echo repeating just because, because, because we are many people in our lives. So I'm not one to judge, but if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show me the unseen stuff. Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me want to kick my feet up. No one's living in a catalog Ikea dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a hundred zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly, so if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell?

Wow. When did you write that one?

I don't remember.

Is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago?

I mean, no, it's a few years ago.

It's more recent. Yeah.

I was on the phone with a friend of mine and the birds were just like really loud. And during the conversation I said, something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. And then I thought, you know what? I like that.

That's a good, that's a good laugh.

Pause the conversation. I wrote it down and then started to build on it later.

Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love?

I think all of them in some form or fashion, but I think Some of them are self-love, some of them are romantic love, some of them are love of God, some of them are love of humanity, nature, all of it.

What would you say? How long have you been doing poetry? Would you say, like, officially, you know, that's part of your thing? Not just like, I did it when I was like seven, a little bit here and there, but like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently. Do you remember?

I mean, I think I'm past 30 years.

30 years?

Yeah. It's like one of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life. You know, my. My relationship with Rhythm and Rhyme. Yeah.

What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

Well, it's something that I try to teach other people. Like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there, I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, don't try to make something great.

Mm-.

Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again. Because if I sit down and I say, I'm going to make something great, I'm just getting in my own way. I'm turning my back on the muse.

Mm-.

I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me are poems where I'm surprised at where they go.

Really?

Yeah, because I don't get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into.

So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea. Maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to join a Grammy. and you're like, okay, where could I take this in other areas of life? Is that kind of how it starts or. Yeah, the birds are this, the wolves this, the bears this, the this, you know, it's like, let's keep the analogies going.

And then, yeah, it's like, basically you're. You're building railroad tracks, and you're the railroad tracks, and you're the train, and you are the conductor. -huh and you're the beginning, middle and end, the destination, wherever you wind up. And you're also none of those things because you're the observer.

Wow.

So it's a spiritual practice, creativity.

You have this other, do you call them poems when you put something online, like an Instagram post? Is that like a short poem or is that like a phrase within a poem usually?

Well, yes, it's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is, to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know, I want, of course, please follow me on Instagram, but it's like, I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is, and that's why I'm excited to put out actual, like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work, but, I'm not sure.

Snippets. It's not the full thing. You have this, you know, poem within a poem, I guess you call it, about love that you shared recently that said love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on your belief, so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak, love is lost. Love is grief, love is loss. Love is risk, love is real. But love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from?

Let me say the next line.

-Yes.

-And I will let the fear of losing you limit how I am loving you.

-Oh my gosh. Can you share that whole poem?

-Yeah. Yeah. Let me actually give you the behind the context.

-Context. Give me the context.

So I was doing this collaboration piece, and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter.

Yeah, yeah.

But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written, and it ends Save the Day with Love. So we're on this like planning call. about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing. And one of the guys goes, Hey, is there any way we can change the final word? Because he goes, Love is a bit soft. And he goes, I want to end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz. And I was like, no.

Because it's not your poem.

First of all, no, respectfully. Second of all, I don't look at love as soft. I said, I look at love as hard. And he goes, okay. And then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece. Love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is not smooth. Love is scarred. Love is not perfect. Love is flawed. Love is not quiet. Love is loud. Love is not pride. Love is proud. But love is not certain. Love is doubt. And love is not leaving. Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle. Love is rough. Love is not fragile. Love is tough. Love is not thinking that love is enough. So I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack. Love is not abstract. Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no. Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low. Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy. Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong. Love is context. Love is not black or white. Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process. Yes. So in the simple moments, when the chaos Fades away in the Silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way. And how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive. That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on my belief, so it will bring me to my knees. Love is weak, love is lost, love is grief, love is lost, love is risk, love is real, but love is worth the pain I feel. And I won't let the fear of losing you Limit how I'm loving you. I'm gonna love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm gonna love you harder more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for. So love harder. First yourself, then your family. your friends, your co-workers, your neighbors in your community. Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy. Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy. Now try to love the people that you don't love at all. Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big. See if you can love them small. See if you can hold compassion for the that they are. And they are. But love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is scarred. Love is flawed. Love is loud. Love is proud. Love is doubt. And since love Is most important when we do not know how. I will choose to love you harder in the never ending now.

Wow. Holy cow. I love this poem. But how do you love someone who's hurt you and continues to hurt you over and over again? How do you choose to love, accept and forgive someone who's done horrible things to you.

You're a great conversationalist and a great interviewer because that's a really, really strong question. And I have to search myself for the answer. Yeah, I think I can't answer that for anybody else.

How have you learned to, I mean, through this, the album that you put out, I mean, there's a lot of vulnerable, you know, things in there that you talk about and you share about. And I know personal stuff about you. I don't want to say it for you if you want to or not. It's fine. But how have you dealt with loving people who are the closest to you, who have hurt you? And how do you do it? Even if they don't want to change their behaviors and even if they keep doing things that continue to hurt you? knowing or unknowingly, how do you choose to love them personally?

One day at a time, one moment at a time, knowing that the love is bigger than whatever the conflict is or the misunderstanding is and continuing to show up over and over again, zooming out when you get too close to the television and all you see is the pixels, man. you got to zoom out and get the full picture. And you also have to acknowledge and recognize and remind yourself that you don't know everything. There's plenty of things that I thought were true at times in my life that I look back on and I'm like, man, what truth was I living? Like, that's not true to me anymore. And. That's progress, that's growth, that's evolution. So I don't like regret anything that I've done. But there are things that I would do differently. And I'm sure there are things now that I don't understand or ways that I'll change in the future. So like, just remembering that I don't know everything. And maybe there's some new information here for me to discover rather than to come into it with, like, my idea of what it is and then miss what it actually is.

I think both of me and you are on a. Have a similar Journey that we're on, which is get a personal here, but we're both on a journey of wanting to become parents one day. Yeah, but we're both not parents yet. what do you think type of love will happen when we become fathers?

Oh, man. Now you're gonna make me cry. Don't make me cry, bro.

I'm about to get emotional. Think about it. But what do you think? You know, you've written about love. You've experienced it, but I don't think we've fully experienced it. Yeah, I think we've scratched the surface of what we think love truly is. What do you think will. when we become fathers in that first few moments, what type of love will there be that you think we'll experience?

I think it's gonna be an explosion of love, like the Big Bang. The other night I was fast asleep. I was like dreaming about something or other. Tony Soprano. We've been watching Sopranos again. It's a brilliant show. It's funny because this is a complete separate thing. Like when I first watched the Sopranos, I was like 19. Oh, now I'm watching the Sopranos. I'm Tony Soprano's age.

It's crazy, man.

You know, it's a completely different show. So anyway, my wife had never seen it. So I'm like, you know, mid-dream and there's this like explosion outside of our window. It was something having to do with the power line and nothing happened that was crazy, but it was a loud bang and sparks right outside. the window, and we didn't know what it was. Gunshot, you know, had no idea you're coming out of your dream. And before I could even think, I had dove on top of her, literally. And I was just covering her. You know, I know that I'm still the star of my own show, but I would give up my role for my wife.

Wow.

You second.

Wow.

And I imagine that it would be exponential, you know, once you have a kid. So it's almost like. And I don't want to, like, get overly, like, spiritual, but I feel like you would finally know, like, God's love, you know, because there is a level of, like, unconditional. that is beyond like a mental framing, you know?

Yeah. No matter how much that kid messes up, like you're just gonna love them.

And you'd probably give it all up for them in a second, of course. Yeah. Any part of it, I mean, you know? And how do you still create boundaries within that?

Yeah, exactly. He loves unconditionally, but also, okay, you can't cross this boundary. Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? Like, what do you think when you.

Let me answer that in a second.

Yeah.

But have you written a poem for your child?

You know, I wrote a poem about parenthood. And whenever I do it, everybody's like, automatically assumes throughout the whole entire poem that I'm like a parent of like five kids, you know, because how does he know so much? And I was just using my intuition and imagination.

But have you written a poem about your child?

No.

That is coming.

I'm gonna do that now. But I'm not gonna write it from the standpoint of showing it to anybody or making it great.

Of course.

I'm gonna do what I said earlier. And I'm feeling the resonance of you saying that because it is something that we want to create. So I should probably be creating. around that creation.

I don't expect you to ever share. Maybe you share the poem publicly in the future if you feel like it or not. But if you were to write a poem about your child that is coming, what would you think would an unedited first line be that maybe you use, maybe you wouldn't use? What would be like off the top of your mind that you think would be a line? And this may be not the thing you use in the future, but. What's on your heart right now?

Thank you. I love you. You're welcome. Welcome.

That sounds like a Moana song. You're welcome. You watch that movie? Yeah, it's a great movie, man. Martha loves that movie. She is Moana. She is like, that's her like Disney character. That's who she identifies as. Nice.

Everybody has a picture.

Yeah, and I'm Maui. We've taken the test. There's like a Disney quiz that could be like, what character are you of every Disney movie? And she is Moana and I am Maui.

You guys are destined.

It's crazy. It's really crazy. Of all the movies, what would you be? What would your character be that you resonate with the most? Maybe you haven't seen all the Disney movies, but. Wow.

I don't know. There's not one that could give me some options.

I mean, I don't know. Beauty and the Beast. There's Aladdin. There's, I don't know. I don't know what other movies there are, but.

I mean, it's funny. I've written like 50 songs for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. not for their TV shows, movie movies, but for the TV shows. And I literally can't.

Lion King Aladdin.

I mean, yeah, I did this.

He was there. Yeah, I'll be that.

I'll be that little crab. You could be the monkey in Lion King. Sounds good.

Who's got the wisdom?

Sounds good.

You got the wisdom, but you're like. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of rhyming in poetry. Yeah. The crab is rhyming.

I don't know. I actually, it's something to explore. I mean, it's interesting that you guys, I said to you upstairs, I mean, you're, you're truly best. best friends, which is what you need for a lifelong walk. Yeah. Or at least it's what I need so I can recognize it when I see it in other people. Yeah, man.

I felt like I needed peace, and I feel like. I don't feel like best friends are angry at each other a lot. Like, you know, Matt is my best friend I've known for 20 years. Like, we don't really argue with each other. Get angry. Maybe we have, like, disagreements, but we're not angry at each other. Like, screw you. That's maybe happened, like, a couple times for, like, an hour, and they're like, oh, my bad. You know, I didn't mean to hurt you. And I wasn't intentional. But I think if you're getting into an intimate relationship with someone and you're every week fighting, that doesn't seem like a best friend. That seems like a friend that you don't want to understand or choose to accept and vice versa if they're fighting with you. And maybe it doesn't mean you like the things they're doing, but for whatever reason, why do you think in intimate relationships we struggle creating harmony and peace with the person we're choosing, not me and you, but in the past I have.

And I have too.

And we see this with a lot of people. Why do you think we choose intimate partners that we want to be best friends with, but then we end up fighting with all the time and not seeing eye to eye? Why do you think that is in love and relationships?

It's a combination of things, in my opinion. One is I think we're learning about ourselves through these relationships. And a part of what we're learning is what is negotiable and what is non-negotiable. And the things that are non-negotiable are things that have to be in harmony. You're never going to have perfect harmony with any partner, any friendship, any business relationship. But you have to have harmony over the things that are non-negotiable. Otherwise, you will wind up fighting over those things in various disguises forever. And I think what happens is when we're lonely or when we really want to have a life partner, fully acknowledge the things that are non-negotiable for us, and we don't fully acknowledge who we're actually with. To truly see the person in front of you, not who you want them to be. To truly see. I always say that relationships are like an archeological dig, and you don't want to use a jackhammer. You want to use a brush. Just slowly brush away the relationship and keep showing up and getting to know each other over and over again. You can't have a crash course in intimacy. you can't know all of who someone is in six months. You ever see people who are like newly in love and they're not even in love with each other. They just have this like projection thought bubble that's in between the two of them.

They're perfect, yeah. They're perfect.

Yeah.

And it's just the chemicals that they're in love with.

Yeah.

The feeling of love.

Right. And then what happens is the person doesn't live up to your unspoken expectations.

Yes.

And the fantasy is- you- resent them. and you fight them. Be what I want you to be so that I don't have to be lonely anymore.

Wow.

You know, it's like if you actually knew who you were and you were willing to let go. And by you, I mean me, because I had to learn this over and over again. Broken record, repeating the same mistakes, dancing to the music that I didn't even like because it was the patterns. If you were able to do that, then you would actually go like, huh, I don't think this is right for me. We have some things that are non-negotiable. That's okay. Can we negotiate what's non-negotiable? If we can't, then I love you and I'm going to move in another direction because I love myself more. and I love the future partnership more. When I first met Adriana on our first date, at the end of the date, she asked me, she goes, so how old are you? I was like, I'm 39.

She was what? What was she at that time?

God, she was 25. Which, by the way, there was no way... I didn't know how old she was when we went on our first date. And because we met online, and I was like, there's no way. Because I had my own list. And I was like, I'm not seriously dating anybody that's not blah, blah, blah. I'm not blah, blah, blah. I'm not blah, blah, blah. I am blah, blah, blah. These are the ideas that I had for my partnership. But I was at least mature enough to show up and see what was there. And she was too. So anyway, she goes, you,'re 39. You don't have any kids? I go, no. She goes, okay. You never been married? I go, no. She goes, okay.

What's wrong with you?

What's wrong with you?

Yeah.

And the thing is, she had every right to ask it. Every right, 'cause I knew why she was asking. But the truth is, I had been asking myself the same thing. and I was uncomfortable answering because I wasn't sure if I was not settling to settle down or I was actually getting in the way of having real intimacy.

Interesting.

And so I go, I don't want to answer that. And then it got hella awkward, and the date ended soon afterwards. And I think both of us thought we were never going to see each other. And then luckily we got a second date, and. And six years later, here we are. Wow.

So what made you so uncomfortable to answer that question or what was the answer inside of you that you didn't want to share?

Well, now all these years later, she was the reason that she asked. You know, she was the answer. You know, there was nothing wrong with me. I was waiting for her for having that true ride or die because how I grew up and I think you might be able to relate, but I won't put words in your mouth. Trust for me is non-negotiable. Trust for me is everything because I didn't grow up feeling trust in many ways. And I'm not pointing any fingers. I'm grateful for everything. I have so much love for my childhood and who I am sitting here with you now, which took all of it. Yeah, but like, I can't be in a real partnership unless I can look at my partner and be like, I got you and you have me and we're across the room and, you know, I hadn't found that.

Yeah.

And I had been trying to fight with past relationships to turn them into that. And now in retrospect, I want to apologize to all of them and thank them. because they were helping me figure out who I was and what was non-negotiable so that I could get to that person that I truly have that type of partnership with.

Did you feel like you were that person for yourself? Did you trust yourself fully?

No. And I think that there were even times where I used the other person as my excuse to not look within.

Interesting.

So I was almost like, you ever like, I don't know, like choose somebody unavailable because you are unavailable?

Of course.

And then blame them for being unavailable.

The longer you get into it, you're like, okay, why aren't you more available for me? Yeah, I'm sure I was the same way for them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then maybe somebody comes to you and says, wow, like I'm available and you're like, I'm not attracted to them for some reason.

You know what's interesting as you're saying this, like if someone is emotionally available, they would never choose someone who's unavailable.

Exactly.

They would see it and they're like, that doesn't work for me. They have to be equally available for me to want to be willing to explore this. Because if someone's saying, I'm available emotionally, but I'm choosing someone wounded who doesn't open up and who's got all these secrets inside and doesn't want to look me in my eyes and connect with me intimately, then you're wounded still because you're trying to fix someone.

Yes, and that's hard to take responsibility for. It's much easier for us to blame other people to find excuses. And when we do that, we get farther away from the truth and we have to uncover more layers so that we can get down to taking responsibility for ourselves and our choices.

You talked about truth. a few minutes ago about how the more wisdom and experience and years you have, the more you realize some things are true that you thought weren't true and that are untrue, that now are true, like you learn new lessons. What do you think is the most true thing that you 100% know to be true?

Here we are. Yeah. I know that. Here we are, right here, right now. And I'm grateful that we are.

What was the biggest thing that you thought was true for most of your life that you realized was not true?

And it was... No, no, go ahead.

It was just something that was like, oh, I've held onto this belief that this thing was true. and then later in life you realize, oh, maybe that was just a wounded part of me or just I wasn't educated enough. I didn't have the experience or the wisdom or I learned it from the wrong person. Was there anything like that?

I think hurt people hurt people. And I was really hurt. And I think I hurt a lot of people. And I think I hurt myself a lot. Well, you know, I think we tend to love other people how we love ourselves. I was pretty violent. to myself in my behavior, in my thought process. I was telling a friend relatively recently, I used to have, like, images of killing myself, like, in my mind over and over again, like, at random times throughout the day. And it wasn't even like I was gonna do it. I would just have, like, a flash image of, like, just not existing anymore.

Wow.

And going out in a violent way. How am I supposed to be able to love somebody in a healthy way if that's what I'm doing to myself? I wrote this poem. It has one line, though, that I'll share. And it says, it says, Being angry at God is like yelling at yourself in the mirror. Because no matter what you say, God will be waiting for you when you are done.

Oh my gosh. Say that one more time.

Being angry at God is like yelling at yourself in the mirror. Because no matter what you say, God will be waiting for you when you are done.

Wow.

So that's what I was doing, yelling at myself. in the mirror all the time and then going out into the world and finding the evidence for what I was choosing and unchoosing to believe.

Yes.

You know? So is there anything for you that you feel like you've had to unlearn that was so true at that time that. That now you have a different perspective on?

I mean, the thing that I thought was true for most of my life was I'm worthless. so I had to unlearn that because it is not true. And I believed it so much to be true, probably like you, in certain ways. I'm worthless, you know, and no one will love me was kind of the truth, the lie I was telling myself. And I think it was like you said before, is exhausting and draining. It was. It was just. Yeah, it sucked the life out of me. And I think when it. When I finally learned how to let that go and step into a different truth, it felt freeing. It felt like peace, Harmony for the first time. And I think life is a. For me, life is a consistent journey of. repetition. And if I'm not repeatedly showing up, contributing to myself with these types of positive truths, these types of reps, then I could easily slide back if I have a few bad days of just like negative reps. And so it's just a consistent, like you said, the truth you know is here we are. And so if here we are, this is the moment to have a rep. and I can choose a rep that serves and supports a positive belief or a negative belief that holds me back. And so I just try to reflect as many moments throughout the day that I have more positive reps, you know, that I have a. I'm speaking in kind of sports lingo, but repetitions that I really show up the best I could in every scenario to support the truth that I want.

I think that was beautifully said.

Yeah, you're.

You're in the Gratitude gym.

Oh, yeah.

And you gotta.

Every day, man.

Keep lifting.

Every day.

Yeah.

If I don't. If I don't use it, I'm gonna lose it.

That's totally true.

And I'm gonna go right back into what I knew for 30 years.

Yeah. Because the. The worthlessness, Jim, is always open.

It's always open, man. 24 7. Yeah. And it's so easy to be in that gym.

Yeah.

So easy. But it's interesting, there's a lot of false reward there.

It's fast, it's familiar, you know, it's quick. Yeah, it's, you know, you think short timeline, long timeline, medium term timeline, you know, it's the shortest timeline around, just taking a hit of, I don't deserve anything. you know, I'm worthless. I'm a victim. And you just get to wrap yourself up in that. And that definitely is probably like my most familiar state.

Really?

Yeah, I mean, I think I've worked my way out of it now over many years of doing my own reps and having different modalities. to help me along the way to have incremental and accumulative presence. But I can't let that go. It's not like I can just go, well, I won the game, so I don't have to play anymore. No, it's a never-ending game. And what an amazing thing it is that I get to play.

Do you think it's possible for an artist to actually live a beautiful, loving life? Or do most artists just struggle in the suffer of, like, I'm a artist, so I have to suffer and feel pain so I can express my art from a painful place?

I just want to say one thing before I forget, and then I'll answer that. I just want to acknowledge you. I want to honor you because I feel like that place of worthlessness that you have and continue to work through has brought a lot of value to the world.

Thanks, brother. Appreciate it, man. Thank you.

You know, I mean that. Yeah.

Thank you.

You know, to me as a friend, but to many other people, because you've been willing to invite us into your heart and into your experience and into your process.

I appreciate it.

So it's the school of greatness. It's the school of self-worth.

Absolutely, man.

Yeah.

Positive identity.

Yeah. Yeah. To answer the other question, I think that many times people who go through intense pain or trauma, it kind of wakes them up a little bit early and simultaneously puts them to sleep.

Interesting.

It's like both things are happening, right? But it shakes their reality and it becomes a catalyst for them to create. But then sometimes they think that they need that pain to continue to create. And so they just like go on these self-destructive streaks, one because it's what they're used to, and two, because they feel like, well, that's my fuel. And what I would say to those people or anybody listening to this is what got you here won't get you there. you know, it's great that you're here, but if you want to get somewhere else, you might need to find a different fuel source. And there's plenty of things that you can use as fuel. You know, pain, you're always going to have the memory of it. You're always going to have your imagination. You're always going to witness and see pain in the world that you can use to create from, to transmute it into something else. but you don't need to live a life of suffering, you know, in order to have something to talk about, you know, or write about or act about or sing about. And you deserve to be happy, too. And you can share that as well.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

When you've written, you know, so many poems over 30 years, how many think do you think you've written that you've shared with people either on stage or in a book or in a journal or, you know, how many do you think you've written that you've shared? Hundreds.

Oh, I think I'm past a thousand easy.

Wow.

Yeah.

How do you continue to. Some people, when they accomplish a certain level of success, they have more confidence. But others, they say, oh, I don't know if I can keep repeating this over and over again. Like, okay, a lot of my best work is out there. Can I keep creating great work? How do you continue to have a, you know, a level mind and heart when you're creating and not think my best work is behind me? Um, and can I recreate this? Or how do you, how do you navigate that?

Well, you can't recreate anything. you have to create. Don't recreate, create, and don't try to repeat your past success. Just be open, you know, see what's here. Pay attention. You know, the last poem that I wrote is like a children's book and. I don't have kids, you know? So maybe there's something like there, you know, that is beneath the surface. But the reason that I wrote it is I had a corporate gig in Mexico and we were, you know, we had a flight leaving after the gig and we had a little bit of window of time, so we decided to go whale watching and we're like out there First of all, I had done it before, but I had never paid attention to the process. And you see these whales and then all of a sudden, all these boats go chase where the whales are. And it was aggressive, man. I didn't like it. So we told the guide, hey, let's just move away from these other boats. Because it felt like all of a sudden, It wasn't the ocean. It was like an aquarium or something. I didn't want to be a part of the problem. So we go kind of like deeper out in the ocean and he gets this, like machine out technology where like he puts this like cord way down there in the deep. Yeah. And then it's attached to a speaker and you could hear the whale songs and it was so beautiful. Wow. Listening to them in real time.

So it's like an amp. It's like a microphone for whales.

Exactly.

And you hear the speaker in the boat.

Exactly.

Interesting.

And let me tell you, that's pretty cool. There's a lot going on down there. A lot. And they're not just saying, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here. They're saying some stuff. You could just.

Wow.

You can feel it right as you're listening. And so as I left, I'm on the plane going back. and I just had this thought of like, you know, sometimes like whales like to go human watching. So I started like writing this poem about these whales that would sneak out of the ocean in the middle of the night and like go human while they sneak into our houses while we're asleep and start looking through our stuff and blah, blah, blah. Like if I had thought, do I want to write a poem Next, what is my poem gonna be? And I want to make this incredible thing that's gonna change the world. I wouldn't have just been like, ah, this is an interesting idea. And then I finished it and I was like, this is really cool. Maybe this could be a children's book.

Oh, that's cool.

And so I think you just have to keep trusting your internal compass. and move in the direction of your True North.

Absolutely. Speaking of True North, a lot of people don't know what theirs is and they struggle trying to figure out their purpose, their path, their passion, their self-worth, if they have any, how much they have. They try to understand their insecurities, their to pains, the people that are closest to them that have hurt them. They try to understand all these things. I know I'm one of those people. You created a journal called the Never Ending Now Poetry Journal. And it's got a lot of different prompts. It's got poems and then prompts for people to go through their own process of self discovery. Why is this such an interesting project for you? and how can it support and serve people in figuring out their true north?

Well, people don't often use creativity as that modality for better mental and emotional health or stress release because they leave it to professionals. And we become adults, we find things that we're good at, find things we get paid for, find things that we get validated for, and we stop being a student. Creativity is about play, no matter what you're exploring. So this is an opportunity to explore the stories inside of you. You do not have to be a poet to get the poetry journal and to take the journey of healing. You just have to be a person that's willing to risk and try something that you would never normally try. as a way to become more present and peaceful in your life. And there's a conceptual through line to this journal that takes people through growth and fear and sadness. And ultimately it leaves them in empowerment and infinite possibility, because I always want to leave my audience where I want to leave myself, which is in a place of hope.

And so people can either read your poems or listen to the poems. and then they follow through with a prompt. Is that correct?

Yeah. So the album is 40 minutes and it's like an audio movie. You're just supposed to, like, take a long walk or a drive and listen to it.

The whole thing.

One experience. Yeah. And then the journal helps you go deeper and you can buy the journal and take that Journey without listening to the album. You can listen to the album without taking the Journey of the journal, but they're both. accompanying pieces of art that can help you have an experience that's separate but connected. Yeah.

And you talk about how this journal flows. First, the experience. So you read or you listen to the poetry, the art. Then you create using the prompts based on what you read or listen to. And then you say, activate it, which is move the poem from your page into your life via sharing performance, memorization or visualization. why is that an important element for people to alchemize their thoughts or pain into peace and hope?

So, the journal is basically like a culmination of the 25 years of poetry workshops that I've done. And one of the many things that I learned along those very strange poetry workshops over the years from starting out in libraries and juvenile facilities and to upward bound and junior highs and high schools to then the biggest corporations around is that people are people and people actually want to express themselves. They're dying to express themselves and they're dying to see and be seen. But they don't feel like they have a safe container to do it. So I would just basically say, hey, I'm gonna start off by saying something vulnerable. I'm going to share a poem because if I'm asking you to be vulnerable and I'm not doing it first, it's almost irresponsible. And then I give people prompts and I say, what is it that this can make you reflect on in your own life that you wouldn't normally share about after 15 minutes at a dinner party with some random person? Like choose the thing that's a layer deeper. because if you do, the poem starts to flow. And then I give people time to write, and then they come back, and then I get people on stage, and they share the poems, sometimes for the first time ever, standing on stage doing any form of art, and we hold the container of everybody being supportive, loving, caring, passionate, compassionate, and celebrating that person for the strength that it takes to share with a room full of strangers and to be courageous and to over exaggerate that support. So everybody's like standing on a chair and yelling and screaming and the.