Why DATING SUCKS... (Fix These 6 Things TODAY!) | Lewis Howes
Lewis Howes and guests including Esther Perel and Dr. Jenn Hardy discuss why modern dating feels broken. They cover love bombing versus real connection, the role of emotional vulnerability, and how social media and dating apps have changed what people expect from relationships.
Chapters
Love bombing is a one-way action. Meaning, it's one person trying to overwhelm you with all this love to get you to buy into it and move forward. Connection is a two-way experience. When two people are feeling this draw to each other, both feeling into each.
Other that's... What would be three questions they should ask to know if they have the right connection with someone? Seeing as you said connection is something that you can't create, you either have it or you don't. What are three questions to ask that person in the first hour of meeting them if you think you have connection?
I don't even think it's questions to ask. I'll give you three things they should do, all right? Three things. Number one, be your authentic self, all right? So, no representative, no game playing, No, trying to maneuver this because you really like this person and want them... No, just be yourself and either they're going to like you and love you for who you are or they're not.
All right. What does that mean like say everything that's on your mind be as like quirky as you want to be unfiltered.
If that's who you are, yes. If that's who you are so, if you're a...
So, don't be on your best behavior of like okay, I'm going to let.
This slide and this slide. So, let me give you a perfect example. Let's say for a woman she's dating a guy and she views this guy as very conservative, all right. So, she thinks she has to come and be an angel on this thing be a good girl, all right. But lo and behold, she's a little scatterbrained, she's a little out there, all right. But what she doesn't realize is he likes that.
Right.
He actually wants the sight of her she's not showing, all right. But she's projecting what she thinks that she needs to bring to the table because of who she thinks he is. But she doesn't know the full real him So, a lot of people don't even realize they're shooting themselves in the foot because you're doing who you... You're being what you think you should be rather than just be yourself. And if they are... If they're connecting with that great, if they don't so be it. Let's not play any games with each other. So, again, if you're quirky be quirky. If you're a very affectionate person be affectionate. Granted, there can be boundaries drawn so that we don't make any confusion as to sending the wrong message. But don't hinder being your true self because that only throws things off.
Okay.
Second thing is be very honest and transparent, all right. So, it's one thing to be yourself but sometimes when the conversation goes into certain areas we don't want to be open and honest about what we're thinking or how we feel. Let's say for example, not that people should be... Need to be talking about politics on the first date. But let's just say they ask you about politics, right.
Say how you feel.
Yes, because what purpose does it serve for you to try to dodge it to then find out later that you guys don't get together. Perfect example, I had a client one time who met this guy she felt that there was a connection there she felt like this was it, right. And they had some other issues but one of the sticking issues they had was he was a Trump supporter she was not, okay. Now, I said listen, so you're telling me that you guys may not get together over a man who will only be president for X amount of years, okay? But your relationship can span way past that. Now, I understand for people it goes deeper than that.
His values or something else.
Exactly, but the point is if he would have... If he swept it under the rug and tried to just avoid the political...
To get you to like him.
Exactly, only for it to come out later and destroy everything, you only delayed the inevitable. I'd rather know that we're not on the same page from day one than to wait into year one or year two. That makes no sense, all right. And again, to me, if there's a true connection we're either going to have the same values or we're going to be able to work through them. Because connection does not mean that everything is going to be in perfect alignment as far as how we see things. But we will be able to embrace each other's differences. that difference wouldn't make us want to walk away from each other, all right. So, again, be yourself and open answer things openly and transparently so we're not leaving any mystery here or playing any games.
Yep, and then the third thing?
The third thing is just be aware. And to me what I mean by that is and I'm going to use men right now because I do feel like as men we'll meet a woman and again, she might be awesome be great And a lot of times we know deep inside something's not there, she's just not the one. But we really like her or we really like aspects about her so we want to hold on to this. So, you're allowing this desire to blind you and not allow you to be aware of the fact that no, you know she's not it. And accept that, accept that and walk away, end it because there's no point in dragging this on. At the very least if you want to continue it then be honest about this ain't going anywhere. And if we want to have fun, if you want to have fun with each other that's two adults making their own decision. But don't continue on under the guise of I'm looking for a serious relationship with this woman when I know deep inside she's not the one for me, all right. And the same thing happens with women it's like yo, just be aware because I would tell you everyone that I've spoken to about connection and has expressed that they've experienced this it was pretty much an instant thing. It wasn't an overtime thing. So, as long as you're aware.
That's why you hear some people are like we got married in like three months.
Yes.
Because we just knew like something was connected.
Exactly, and what I hate that's happening in society now is love bombing, all right. So, love bombing is a hot topic and I one day want to do a video on it. But people view these fast moving relationships as oh, it's love bombing oh, it's toxic and it's like that's not every situation. And I think one of the most important things to understand about love bombing is Love bombing is a one-way action. Meaning, it's one person trying to overwhelm you with all this love to get you to buy into it and move forward. Connection is a two-way experience. When two people are feeling this draw to each other, both feeling into each other, that's real. You shouldn't run from that and you shouldn't say oh, it's happening too fast. I would argue real love, real connection is fast. That over time stuff is you're learning to tolerate each other, you're becoming attached to each other, you're becoming conditioned to each other's presence. It's not actual real love or connection, you know what I'm saying? And so, we've been... People have been brainwashed in my opinion. I just think... And again, if you really sit down and examine these situations, you will see the huge differences. I remember one time I had an Uber driver He said he met his wife the first time he met her, they went on a date, he knew she was the one. They've been married 65 years.
Wow.
Happy as hell. He said he would never leave. They're still affectionate, they're still loving. Maybe it was 55 years either way it was a long time, wow, all right. And he's like, yeah, he was telling me how he doesn't understand how this world works now. It's just crazy to him and all these things didn't take him forever to want to marry his wife.
Of the people that you think are in a relationship for over a year, your estimate, what percentage of them.
Are.
Really happy and have true connection? The people in a relationship for over a year, what's the percent of people that you think, let's say in America, that have true connection and are not just in it because of chemistry or maybe this compatibility or desire for the first year or there's some whatever.
The number that's coming to me is 20%.
Wow.
And I might be being generous.
Wow.
I would argue the vast majority even past a year are not truly happy and there's not a true connection.
So, you're telling me you believe that 80% of people that are in a relationship don't have real connection.
Yeah.
The why.
Okay, here's one. One, why do people stay in relationships if they don't have connection? And two, if that many people are with the wrong people, if they all broke up, could they find the right person? Or would it maybe never find someone with real connection?
Okay, so why do we stay even when there's not a connection? one, because people don't even understand the concept of connection.
Okay.
So, it's a very foreign thing to a lot of people and what they've been taught by others is it's not about connection it's about well, you like them, they like you and you get together and you see if you can make it work, right. And because other relationships that are together without connection want to validate their relationship they will encourage others who don't have connection to move forward in their relationship, all right. Because again, they don't want to face that fact One quick example.
People are also afraid to be alone, I think.
Oh, absolutely afraid to be alone, afraid to start over, afraid to be wrong because especially in a situation where other people told you this wasn't it and you fought hard to defend it, you don't want to face that. There's also the I don't want the other person to win and I use that with a lot of women that happens. Whereas, if there's another woman that's somewhere in the situation that he dated or maybe there was anything that happened it becomes a competition.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm not going to let him go because I don't want her to win. Not because I want this man or he's so amazing.
I think it's exhausting.
It's super exhausting but there are a lot of women who engage in those kind of situations.
Man, that's tough.
Or have fallen into those types of situations.
So, I think another one is well, we've invested this much time I don't want to lose time.
That is a huge one especially for women. Women, and it's everybody, but I do think it's even more so for women. Women have a very hard time walking away from anything they've invested a lot of energy, time, and emotion into. This is even for their careers. There are women right now listening to this who are not happy in their careers. They have not been happy for a long time. They may be successful, they may be doing very well, but they never felt at peace and at home there. But, it is so hard to walk away when they gave so many years to it. So much time and energy to it. They don't know how to just let it go. And so, the same thing happens in their relationships. Yes, if they've invested so much time even though they know he's not it. They know this relationship is not what it needs to be they don't want to walk away from that. So, all of those things paralyze people and keep them in a situation where there's no connection.
Yeah, I think I interrupted you I'm not sure if you were going to say something else but I chimed in at one point so.
I can't remember.
Yeah, no, no.
But the second part was you said so, you said why do they stay when there's not a connection? Oh, and if they were to break up...
If 80% of these people said you know what? We're breaking up because we don't have connection. Could they find someone with connection in the next couple of years or would they ever find that person?
I think it's very possible. Can I say that it's yes for everybody? No, but I think for the most people, yes. I think what people don't realize is again, there are a lot of people who... I know a woman. All right, she was a client many years ago. She make a long story short, so she married her guy knowing he wasn't it. She actually wanted to break up a few times before he proposed but found herself kind of feeling stuck didn't know how to reject it she went through with it. Many years later she meets a guy that she feels in a connection with that she never felt before way more into this man than she ever was into her husband. But again, to the outside who doesn't understand this, they'll just say oh, this woman lost interest or she's a horrible wife or whatever. But no, she always knew there was no connection with her husband. She didn't even want to marry this guy. There are men and women who have gotten married knowing this is not the one.
On their wedding days they knew.
Yes, I had another client who said her whole family told her if you want to stop... They were at the wedding. They were in a room in the back. She said, if you want to stop the wedding right now, we will support you.
Let's go.
She said she walked out and walked down that aisle, got married, and she said, you, know why she did it? Because she deserved to be married.
Oh!
Not because that man was the one. No! Not because there was a connection. That's not true. No, at that point she felt like she deserved it.
I'm 30, I'm this, I deserve, my friends are all married.
Exactly.
Now we deserve it.
Exactly. And she can acknowledge that right now.
That would make me sick if I was that guy and if I loved this woman very much and I was giving my life to this woman and she, in her heart, behind the scenes, 15 minutes before walking out, everyone's saying, Walk away. We know this isn't the right for you. You know it's not right for you. And she goes, you, know what? I deserve to be married. So I'm gonna do it anyways, even if it's not right. That's like so painful for the man, I feel like too.
Yeah.
It's more painful being in a relationship where someone doesn't want to be with you than them breaking up with you, in my opinion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know. I mean-- Then you're living a lie as married. You're like, okay, this person really doesn't want to be with me. For me.
It's more hurtful because you're trapped in a situation where you're never gonna get what you deserve and need.
Oh man.
So at least if they break up with you, The breakup hurts but you've been set free and now you can get what you deserve.
Free.
But to stay there and they don't really want to be with you and if they don't really want to be with you they're not going to pour into you the way that you need. You're never going to have happiness and peace. So, absolutely it's much worse to be in that situation than to be broken up with. But I would say that a lot of men don't even realize what's going on in these situations and what men have to realize is listen, like I would argue in that scenario he's not really in love with her. He's infatuated with her.
That's why he's willing to put up with things and do some... Exactly. Tolerate things that he doesn't want to do.
Exactly.
To have this idea of her.
Exactly, he's infatuated, he's attached. Interesting. And so, he views it as love, you know. And I'm not saying no situation is ever real love but a lot of people get love mixed up, you know. And again, to me real love is a two-way thing. All right, and if we really love each other then... Well, I was going to say we really love each other we'd be able and willing to point into each other. But unfortunately, this is where lack of healing comes in because that's one like there's some situations where two people can have a connection, can truly be in love. But if there's a lack of healing it can still get thrown off. There's a lot of people who met their connection but it did not happen because of fear. It did not happen because of a lack of healing. It did not happen because this was foreign to them. This was scary to them. It's very overwhelming to meet that person you have a connection with it pulls out all your insecurities, it makes you vulnerable in a way that you've never been vulnerable and that is a lot. And so, people will now run from their connection and go be with the person they're not really in love with because it's safer there.
Why?
Why?
If you find someone with this connection this is a great match would you sabotage it over and over again to go find someone who's not a match? Why do people do this?
Because... So, there's a few things to consider. One, the person you have a connection with has the power to hurt you like nobody else.
Oh, my God.
So, if your perspective let's say you're a woman and you perceive all men as they're going to hurt you they're going to do you wrong, right?
They're going to lie, they're going to cheat, they can't be trusted.
So, now, I'm faced with guy A who is Mr. Perfect he does everything right and I have an amazing connection with him.
He pours into me love, support, everything.
And there's a connection there. But then I have guy B where it's not a connection there but over here I feel like I have one more value, all right. Because with perfect guy I'm looking at him like this amazing man how do I even deserve this? A lot of women have a struggle of feeling like they truly deserve this man or that they are truly good enough for this man, all right. They may not all verbalize it but behind closed doors that is a struggle for a lot of women. Also, it's the situation where again, if you view men as they're going to hurt you the guy B who's not good for you is showing you they're not good from the jump. So, you know what's coming, all right. It's easier to deal with that than the perfect guy and I say perfect in the sense of he's just an amazing guy. then that guy we have the connection with where it's almost like you're waiting for the pin to drop and it still hasn't come yet. What the hell is going on here?
It's like, it's too good to be true, right?
Yeah, and you're waiting to get hit. There was literally an episode on divorce court one time where this woman, she leaves this man, they asked the woman why did you leave this man? What was the situation? She said he was perfect, he cooked, he cleaned, he was my best friend, he was an amazing partner. It says so, why did you leave him? Verbatim, this is what she said. I was just waiting for him to turn around and hit me. Now, everyone in the audience and even the judge didn't understand what was going on there. Oh, you're just ridiculous, you're a horrible woman. No, what she's saying is she is so conditioned to men being dysfunctional, hurtful, lying, cheating, whatever. That she could not believe that this man was this good. And so, now the fear of something has to happen drives you crazy.
Good goodness.
And so, now what will happen is...
Is this a non-healed woman?
Absolutely. So, you will either run or you will try to sabotage because you've got to make something bad stick out. You've got to validate your fear.
Because you may not like it but that's normal.
Yes.
It becomes normal for you.
Yes.
Whatever is not normal is unfamiliar and scary.
Yes.
Even if it's good for you.
Yes.
Even if it's peaceful and loving. you've never had it, it's unfamiliar so you're like what's wrong?
Exactly, and where in the hell is something wrong going to happen? Something wrong has to happen that's what I've been trained to believe. So, now I can't take this insanity of waiting. Oh, my gosh that's what happens to a lot of people. A lot of people and I'm telling you that's why and let me give you another angle.
Give it to me.
So, I've had a lot of clients women clients who have used the term I felt like I was losing myself when dealing with a man that they had a connection with, all right.
They really?
Yes, so here's the problem. If that woman has been hurt, all right. In all these situations she has been hurt she has experienced some level of damage and trauma. She now becomes guarded, all right. That guardedness is her shield it is her protection in her eyes, all right. But it also allows her to not be fully vulnerable, okay. So, now she's operating under this shell behind these walls. The man she has a connection with forces you to come out of that. So, now you feel like you're losing yourself but you're not losing yourself, you're losing who you've conditioned yourself to believe you are out of the need for protection. Even though it wasn't really protecting you it was hurting you even more the whole time, all right?
All right, so now... You're losing that ego part of yourself, the masks, the guards.
And the safety of the garden, the safety of the walls. You're not allowed to have those walls in a relationship that give a connection. It demands greater of you but the dysfunctional guy, the no good guy, the loser does not demand that of you. So, you can continue to operate behind your walls giving three quarters half of your heart All right, and validate it because you're with a guy who's beneath you, so to speak. Who you're not really in love with.
And you're more in control of the situation.
You have emotional control with this guy. You feel like your emotions are all over the damn place with the other guy. And you can't deal with that it's nerve wracking.
Why is it so hard for women to deal with that, to deal with the full expression of their emotions vulnerability?
Because I believe it's because Women as they grow up, they're much more emotionally giving of themselves. So, because of that, even when they get into relationships that first relationship where she fell in love or thought she was in love, she really gave herself. See, as men we don't always fully give ourselves. That situation where we do that is a lot more rare. We have to feel like this is the one. All right, whereas a woman if she feels like I can be with this guy, I want to be with this guy she gives of herself. And since this tends to happen typically at a young age, high school, early college, at a time where men at that age are boys and don't know how to handle a woman's love, emotions, and the commitment that's required in that relationship. It is more than likely he's going to hurt her. Whether it's completely his fault, whether it's also, her doing some things because it's not only the man that does wrong it's the woman too. But the point is they're both young, they both have not learned how to be mature and master their emotions. And so, she's going to typically get hurt. And now from that point she says I will never let that happen to me again, the wall comes up. Now, she's guarded, now she's trying to manage her vulnerability. When she was younger she wasn't fully managing it. If anything, When women are younger it's other people trying to pull them back. Don't be so into it you can't be all into the guy relax. She wants to just get it.
I act like you don't care.
Exactly, yeah, act like you don't care all this game playing. But once she gets older nah, now it's okay I'm not going that far. Wow. But the problem is that works well with the no good guy that shoots you in the foot with the guy you have a connection with or that's the really good guy for you. And so, it's a horrible negative cycle but again, lack of healing. And listen, the same thing can happen to a man but here's the difference. Men let's say when he's younger thinks he falls in love, gives his heart to a girl she crushes it. And he can't go on a vengeful F these women, F life, I don't care anymore, I'm going to do whatever I want, right. But then if he meets an amazing woman There's a greater chance of him being willing to embrace that she's an amazing woman and give it another chance.
Why?
Because he has not been conditioned to believe that all women are horrible.
Why are women conditioned this way?
Because they're getting stories from their mothers, their aunts, their sisters, their friends, society, TV all saying men bad, men bad, men bad, men do wrong. The only place they can see a story of love is Disney and not even Disney anymore maybe, I don't know but... Yeah, right. You know, that fairy tale doesn't exist, all right. Men are not... It's not pushed as much on men. Are there some men who have been pushed to the edge of believing all women are bad? Yes, and those men act horribly and those men will reject that amazing woman when she comes his way. But a lot of men still have hope. A lot of women they don't have hope, they're just trying to work with it. All right, so that's what makes it a huge difference. So, when the good amazing woman comes his way he has a reason to think maybe this could really be it. When the good amazing man comes her way it's no, this can't be real because that doesn't exist. Men like this don't exist how could this be happening right now?
And if you convince yourself that enough you'll find something wrong with the person whether they did something wrong or not.
Exactly, you will create listen, I hate to say this but this is truth, some women and I say some will create false narratives. They will create stories that don't actually exist because they need something. And this even happens when it comes to dating I have a video about you will always be the bad guy. And what I tell men is that if you don't... There are a lot of women out there that if you don't give them what they wanted ultimately, whatever it was, they're going to at some point view you as the bad guy.
What does that usually be? If you didn't give me a ring.
If you didn't do this for me, if you didn't do that for me. So, let's say for example, you met a woman she deep inside wanted a real committed relationship and you never gave that to her. And let's just say you weren't even lying to her, you were telling her I really don't really want a relationship but she was going along with it hoping she would get that. She doesn't get that to you to her now she can't view you in a positive light because in order for her to break free from this and suppress her emotions she has to view you as the bad guy. She has to create a negative narrative about you. That's the only way to make it easier for her. Now, again, I stress this isn't all women, but this happens with a lot of women. And so, now what happens is that...
Is this why every... I would say maybe all but like one of my past relationships made me out to be a bad person when I didn't give them what they wanted.
Absolutely.
And said back even if I didn't do anything bad or wrong or a god of integrity, if it just didn't work out, then it was like, okay, they never wanted to speak to me again. I was the worst person in the world. They couldn't be my friend. They talked bad about me, whatever. I was like, just because I didn't give you what you want, we want different things. Yes. But now I'm this horrible human being?
Yes.
Because if they believe in good Lewis, that makes it a struggle for them to accept not being with Lewis. That makes it a struggle for them to accept how the situation didn't go the way they wanted.
Wanted.
They have to project something negative onto you.
Because if I, at the end of the day, the relationship didn't work out, what is it, what are they saying to themselves that I wasn't good enough for him or something has to be wrong with him so that I feel like I'm good enough for them.
So, there's a part of them, so I was just, I wasn't watching the movie. It was, the movie was on TV and there was a scene that popped up where this girl said this guy just broke up with her. Right, and all the girls on the table was like oh, he's just afraid of his emotions, he's this, he's that. Then this one person at the table who was actually a guy disguised as a woman said are y'all blind? He just wants his space he doesn't want to be with you. They all got silent and looked at him and he said oh, no, it's his emotions. Like, he had to change the narrative. So, what it shows you is that there's a part of that woman who does think damn, is it me? Am I not good enough? What's wrong with me? In order to fight that she has to now come with the other side. No, it's him, he has the issues, he's wrong, that's the way to fight that. Now, in my opinion, we have to learn and I would encourage people listen, it cannot be about you and they're not a bad guy. You see what I'm saying like it doesn't have to be either or. We can understand that we just weren't the right match. We weren't the right fit.
That's it.
That's all it is to it. It doesn't mean you're not good enough as a woman you can be an amazing great woman We weren't the right match. Exactly. We didn't have a connection. Exactly, she wasn't for you, you weren't for her, that's it. If we can learn to accept that we don't have to hold on to any negative narrative about the person.
Yeah.
But guess what again, and I would... I have to say there are men who do this too. Sure, of course. It's the same way like when a man, some man will try to approach the woman she rejects him and immediately you be, you this, you know, he goes off on her because now I have to make you into a bad person because you didn't give me what I wanted. Because it makes it easier for me to accept the outcome of this.
It's funny you're saying this. There's something you mentioned earlier about how when a good man shows up, sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes a woman says, this is too good to be true, or When's something bad gonna happen? I remember I was in a relationship about a decade ago. I think it was nine to 10 years ago. The relationship was going amazing for the first three, four, maybe five months. I mean, it was like, I felt connection, chemistry, compatibility. I felt all those things. Whether I had them all or not is irrelevant. But there was one night that she thought I was doing something wrong that I wasn't doing. She made something up, was so convinced that I did something that I didn't do. No matter what I said to say like, Hey, I'm not doing this. it's like she couldn't believe it. She had to hold on to this belief of, like, that I did this thing wrong.
We go through.
I'm just kind of like, what is happening now? She's angry, passive aggressive, not speaking to me for, like, 24 hours. I'm like, what just happened? I have no clue what happened. We were one moment. Everything was fine. We're happy, connecting. The next moment, it was like she flipped and was, like, pushing me away and blaming me for something I didn't do. And the next day, I'm like, what is going on? After we finally talked, what is going on? She goes, to be honest, this was probably a big red flag that I should have noticed right away. But she said, to be honest, I didn't feel like I would meet someone like you at this stage of my life. You see? She was like 26, 27, and I think I was like 29. And she goes, I didn't think I'd meet someone like you at this stage. I thought I'd meet you after I was 30. And I was like, what does that even mean? I didn't even know that. But really what I'm hearing now is like, I don't even know this is possible.
And it's way more common than you think.
Or if I was ready for someone who was like healthier version, because she had a lot of stuff that she hadn't healed yet from stuff, I won't get into it, and I don't think she was ready for love and someone who was just like, I'm here to love you. I'm here to like be support. I'm a good guy. I'm here to show up. I'm patient. I'm present. I'm like we have fun all these things. And I think after like three four months of that she was like wait a minute like this can't be real. I was like what are you talking about? Just embrace it. Like let's just do this thing and it ended up being another six seven months of like up and down chaos stress Love resistance to eventually where it just kind of drove me mad. I was like I can't do this anymore you know, we had this thing and then you weren't willing to like continue on with it and now I'm trying to stay in this thing longer and make it work and it's not working and it ended up not working. So why is that so, I mean, is that women under 30s, over 30s, is that all ages? Is that what is that?
No, I think it just depends on the experience of the woman, what she's been through. the household she's been brought up in, if she's been hurt before. Because you know, granted I do if I'm going to be honest I do think that as the woman gets older the chances of her having these issues or struggles becomes greater. Because she's been through more. Chances are you know, you're past 30 you may have been through a couple of relationships, you may have been through a few minutes you really liked and now that hurts you. Whereas if you're 22, 23 there's less of a chance, you see. It can still happen but there's just less of a chance. So, that's what can change there, you know. But I have to say man, it's so much more common than people realize. I have so many stories from men, clients, and even friends and associates who've all experienced this that all of a sudden the woman saying I can't do this. Like, everything going perfect and saying things like you're too perfect. Saying things like, I didn't think I was going to meet you right now. I had a client who went through a whole long scenario with a woman and she said that to him. She said, I did not expect to meet you at this point in my life.
Then why are you with this person? Why are you dating this person?
Because again, it's she came into it saying good looking guy, I like this guy. She didn't know she was going to feel this way. She didn't know it was going to be like this and she thought you'd probably be like any other guy who was going to do stupid stuff and piss her off. But the more and more you show that you are an amazing man, it's like, wait, hold up. What's going on here?
Why even go on dates if you're not looking for that connection? If you're not looking for that greatest version of someone that you could partner with.
Because again, a lot of people don't even believe it exists. A lot of people are not aware of it. And a lot of people just want companionship and to rationalize to yourself that I should only entertain them if I can find a connection can be discouraging because you feel like dang, connection is hard as hell to find. So, if that's the only purpose of me going out then it becomes more stressful. I don't want to go out and have fun. I just want to enjoy myself and that's normal I think for both sides. We just want to enjoy life, we want to meet people. It doesn't mean they don't deep inside want that but again, I would argue that depending on where they are and what they understand their emotional awareness, they may not truly be ready for that. You know, and if you haven't healed chances are you're not ready for it.
Let's talk about expectations. What type of expectations does someone have going into relationship of their partner? Should they have the highest level of expectations? Should they have low expectations? What should we have?
So, I don't believe in expectations at all.
Having them?
Having them at all because I believe expectation kills appreciation, all right. So, I don't expect and maybe I'm being... Maybe this is semantics but I don't expect I simply set the standard of what I desire and you either meet the standard or you don't. You see what I'm saying?
And so, is that luck?
If you meet the standard I appreciate.
Your efforts So, how would that conversation look like?
It's just simply expressing what we need like I'm a believer and we got to learn to get things on the table quickly. So, what... I'm going to ask that person what do you need in the relationship? What's going to make you happy? What are you hoping to receive from me, all right. And granted again, it could be some things maybe we could call that still expectations, right. But to me it's about the mindset of it, all right. When it's viewed as an expectation is when you're supposed to do this and when you're supposed to do this, why would I appreciate what you're supposed to do? Why would I give you credit for what you're supposed to do? I will not. But when it's something that I desire and you're willing to fulfill that, I can appreciate that. I gave you my needs and you met them, you see. So, the mindset is different and that's why I don't like to look at it as expectations. I don't think anyone should. It's just this is what I need and I'm going to ask you what do you need from me? And if as I'm willing to fulfill your des... If those desires I am willing to fulfill then you will have that. But I still expect appreciation in return. And when you don't show me you appreciate it that's a problem.
There's a lot that's happened in the last four years because Tinder really started exploding you know, four years ago I think. It was kind of four, three, two years ago there was Coming around.
And perhaps lost its taboo maybe in that time.
Yeah, exactly. And then all the other apps came out to make it more accessible to swipe left and swipe right. And Instagram became a dating app essentially in itself. Snapchat and all these social media apps are just now dating and looking at, there's thousands of options. It seems like there's so many good options yet not one great option for.
When you say, you know, they've all become dating apps, then it makes me feel we've come full circle, 'cause wasn't that the original point of Facebook? Was to go on and see who on college campuses single, you know, who's that to me is who's the cute freshman coming in? Yeah, we kind of started there and we've, you know, it's now just many different ways to do it. Obviously, social media is used for many different things, but I think anything that makes easier The ability to meet people, you know, Cal Newport in his book, the Happiness Advantage, talks about the activation energy required for a task. And the higher the activation energy, the less likely it is you'll do something you want to get yourself to do. So he uses the example of like, if you want to play guitar, keep it by the couch so that when you sit down to watch the TV, oh, the guitar's there. If it's up in the closet upstairs, you have to go in. Now the activation energy is higher, you're less likely to practice playing the guitar. And I feel like the activation energy of meeting people, when people had to go out to a bar, you know, dress up, look the part, see someone across the bar, think about what they're gonna say, take the risk to get rejected in front of someone's friends or in front of their own friends, the activation energy was really high. And people, I think, whether they admit it or not, love the idea of the activation energy being really low. That I can slide into someone's DMs on Instagram and hit someone up with very minimal effort. I could be in my pajamas watching, you know, some TV show doing that. And I've also minimized the potential rejection from that. The rejection isn't happening.
It doesn't hurt.
It's not happening in real time at the very least. You might have the rejection of, I never got a response.
But it doesn't hurt. You're not looking someone in the eye. I say no.
Your heart's not beating out of your chest. It's not real time rejection of, I approached you and you're now being cold to me, or you don't want to speak to me, or you tell me you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend. That's like real time rejection.
You know you're lying in the moment. Do you really have a boyfriend? How many times do you go up.
To a girl when they say, I've got a boyfriend, thank you. You're like, you,'re lying to me. I just didn't do well. I know. So that is, you know, we've lowered the activation energy for meeting each other and that I think has saved a lot of people. But it's also done something else.
It's hurt a lot of us.
It's interrupted a little bit, maybe a lot, the story of attraction. You know, I thought about this recently how if Let's say before any of this, there was a man who meets a woman when they're out in some social environment, they exchange numbers. He goes home and he has to call her right now. That takes guts. I have to pick up the phone, have to have a conversation. And, you know, already I'm kind of investing, if you know what I mean. Before I've even made the phone call, I'm investing because I'm thinking, what am I going to say? And how do I come across right? And how do I steal my Nerves. That's a form of investment and we tend to value what we invest in. So now already beginning to value this person more because I'm having to try at something.
Because I met her, I got her number, exchanged information and I'm thinking about the next step.
And even just by the way, the meeting someone out and exchanging numbers, there's a story already happening there. It worked. I went over to someone and it worked.
And there's a potential for... Oh my God, yeah.
She could have said no. And she didn't. And I knew and I thought I was attracted to her and I went over there and I did the thing.
She confirmed it.
And it worked and now I have a number and this is a story that's happening. You go home, you think about it, make the call.
You tell your friends about it. Tell your friends.
I asked a former investor. I met this girl. You gotta hear about this girl. You gotta see this girl. Adding to the story. Now you go on a date. That date, you have a great time, where am I going to take this person, what am I going to do? After the date, you go home and you might have to wait three days or four days till the next date with this person. And in those three or four days, you may not consider it work, but you are working for that person. There's a chasing that's going on in your mind. There's an investment that's going on in your mind and an imagination the narrative that's happening. And that is all part of that kind of natural courtship that pulls us into the next stage of the interaction, whether it's date two, date three, date four, exclusivity moving in together, whatever it is. Now compare that with someone, you know, hits someone up, swipes, we got a match. Okay, there's like no activation energy to that, really. We got a match. Who are they? Okay, read their tagline. Loves, you know, dancing in the rain, whatever they, you know. Okay, yeah, well, yeah, so what's up? You all right? You know, you wanna hang out? Then, you know, just go for a quick drink. They get out together. He comes back, or she comes back from a date, to five more matches. Before he's even got time to process whether he had a good time and what was it about this person? There's already more options coming at someone. There's more, or at the very least you can go home and explore more options from your bed that night after a date. So it's interrupting the circuitry.
Which will give you more dopamine, which will give you more excitement.
Yeah, you're getting attracted to the novelty again. Right now, not the depth of where this thing might now lead. Now, I'm not saying that that's insurmountable and that we're just all... This is not me painting a picture of doom and gloom about current dating. I do think there is a toxicity, there is a toxic element to modern day dating, but it's not... I'm not defeatist about that. I just think that the impact we make on people in the time we have with them becomes that much more important.
Yeah.
Because you can no longer rely on being the only person they're talking to that week or that month.
They might be at five dates that week and a hundred messages from guys.
And probably today, for a lot of people, it's less likely they're on five date this dates this week, but they're talking to 10 people this week.
Yeah.
You know, they're not. A lot of people are going on. fewer dates than everyone thinks. People are having a lot less sex than everyone thinks. But what's happening is there's a lot of nonsense conversations. Superficial, you know, going nowhere, incessant texting conversations.
Crazy, right?
Happening.
And no one's actually even just getting on the phone and talking, are they?
Not unless they want to be different.
Right.
And that, that's where really begins to shift is you have to be the person who's different.
That takes a risk, stands out.
Yeah, well, and that's the current question is in a world with more noise than ever, and for all of your people out there watching right now, everything I think we talk about here in this hour, we can apply to business too. Of course. We can apply everywhere.
Yeah.
I get hired to go do speeches for corporates where I apply what I've learned in 10 years of attraction.
Yeah.
And relationships to business. Because it's the same thing going on everywhere right now. There is so much noise. Everyone's talking in business, too.
Right.
It used to be that you were, you know, in a, if you were a personal trainer, you were competing with the five personal trainers on your gym floor and maybe down the street at the other local gym. And that was the, those were the people that were your competition.
Now everyone's a fitness trainer.
Now anyone with an Instagram account and a six pack is your competition who's trying to sell their digital program or trying to, you know, convince people that they don't need to go to their local trainer, that I might be the other side of the world, but I've got something special for you that you should do it with me. So the whole thing has opened up and what that means is that you can no longer rely on just the scarcity of people to be special. I'm the only one in town. Yeah, even if you live in a small town that someone's options are only limited to the radius they set their dating app to.
That's it, right?
If I want to expand it out by another state, I got a lot more options. So we now can no longer rely on that. We have to be, we have to have a voice that defines us. We have to have a voice that makes us different, you know, from your business. How many podcasters keep joining every day, every day, every day? You no longer can rely on having the market share simply because you're doing podcasting.
No.
You have to now be a voice that's different. Why are people, people only have so many hours in a week, right? This is a long-form podcast, it's, you know, the interview is an hour or so on. Why are people gonna sit with their limited hours and listen to my hour instead of these other six or ten top podcasters? 'Cause we can't listen to them all. So now your voice matters. And in dating, our voice matters because it's not enough anymore to just be a viable dating option for someone.
But do people even really want to stand out to have a committed long-term relationship? Or they more just, they say they want the commitment, but their actions don't back it with just constantly being surface level or constantly being a part of the noise as opposed to trying to stand out. It's like they might try to, especially with guys, it's like, okay, Maybe it seems like more women want to be committed than more guys want to be committed.
Well, that's a tricky one. Most people, I believe, who think they are evolved enough for a relationship are not.
Right.
When do you know?
A long time, by the way, I count myself in that category. Where I thought I was ready. I really thought thought there were times in my life where I really thought I was a great guy. I wasn't a, it wasn't that I was ever a nasty person. I was never a mean person. I was never a, that wasn't the great partner I thought I was. It's not like I, you know, there are times in my life where I thought, God, I'm just, I'd just be a great partner to someone. And I was not ready to be a great partner to someone because I think the first time you really give yourself to something, really commit yourself to not just your own happiness and your own needs, because that's what most people talk about when they talk about a relationship, is their needs, their happiness, right? How good it feels to be in a relationship. It's about them. But it's not about seeing someone else. truly seeing someone else and understanding who they are and understanding what their needs are and supporting them and their happiness and their goals.
It's a great relationship when you stop thinking about your needs and you just say, I'm gonna give this person and look at them from a place of understanding and want to bring them so much joy and fulfillment and not expect in return, but hopefully the other person is saying the same thing about you?
Well, yes and no. There's a lot of, there are a lot of people who on that idea, that ethos, have lived a very masochistic life for a long time.
Really?
That, by the way, what you just described could describe one of two things. One beautiful, one terrible. What you just described could either be An extraordinary relationship with two givers or it could describe unrequired love. It could describe the person who is giving, giving, giving, giving, giving to someone and playing the martyr in their own relationship. They keep ignoring me. They keep, you know, not meeting my needs. They keep being selfish. They keep, but I am just gonna show up. and be my best partner. And love them and give my all and one day they will turn around to meet me in that. Many, many people have caused tremendous suffering to themselves and wasted a lot of good years.
So is it both, give to yourself, make sure you're asking for what you need but also giving.
It's a combination of Respecting what your core needs are. What do I need, like when it really comes down to it? What's my standard for what I need? Now, how exactly someone meets that standard is that's where the messiness of relationships comes in. Because you say, I want to be respected and then someone does something and you go, I don't feel respected but they go, but that doesn't mean a lack of respect to me. So now we have a whole conversation on the execution of a standard.
Oh my God.
And different definitions of what meets that standard. That's where the confusion comes in. And that's where we have to have some really loving cooperative conversations to figure out, am I, you know, am I being, this is one of the hardest parts of relationship. Am I being reasonable in asking for for what I'm asking for or is this my insecurity speaking?
Oh, wow.
You know, am I, which one is talking? And sometimes we're so close we don't even know. That's the danger. That's, by the way, I see one of the most valuable jobs I can do for people in my work is not to be a smarter voice than they are. Because people, people can be great. They can, when it comes to their friends or people around them or whatever, they can. be very smart. But to be an objective voice outside of their drunken haze, because we're so close to something we get, we're not sober and now we don't have logical answers to questions because we get to the point we're arguing about something. I don't even know if I'm right. I don't know if the thing I'm saying is if I'm being the insecure one or if I'm being the reasonable one. And sometimes we leave a situation and we go, God, I was insecure. And sometimes we leave and we go, I can't believe I let someone convince me I was crazy.
Right.
They were the one that was doing the wrong thing and they convinced me that I was nuts.
So how do we step out of that emotional feeling where we're feeling overwhelmed or disrespected or hurt or sad or like their relationship didn't meet an expectation or communication was off and we're in it and we're communicating and we're both frustrated How do you step out and look at it from a different point of view so that you just don't keep repeating that conversation over and over? I mean, don't hurt it further.
Yeah, I think there's a, we have to have a really healthy combination of always questioning ourselves and saying, where is this coming from for me? And would it really hurt me to compromise on this standard is is would it be the more loving thing to do to understand this about my partner? But in order to that needs to be combined with a simultaneous respect for ourselves and what we need and to, I think, go to a situation and say, okay, I want to be the most understanding, compassionate, loving partner I can be who doesn't inhibit or limit my partner, who supports them, wants them to do great. But I also need to recognize that it's not. What was I saying? I lost my train of thought. I need to be the person that can be understanding. What was I saying? The understanding of my partner.
You want to be the most understanding of someone else. But you also have to know your own needs.
Be understanding of someone else. But oh, that's right. I need to be the person that is understanding of the needs of my partner and what they want. But at the same time.
Love.
What was it? Loves my. I need to be understanding of my partner's needs. Ah, that's it. I need to be understanding of my partner's needs. But the context of me being super compassionate and understanding needs to be that I am that this is happening in a loving environment where my partner wants to be my teammate. If we're in a situation where our partner isn't showing empathy for us and isn't like, if you feel they're not trying to, that we're always coming to that side, that's a problem.
That's tough.
That's a problem.
There should be seeing, I see where you're coming from as well, type of energy and communication. Exactly. Not just, I'm not getting what I want. You did this wrong.
You need to feel you have a teammate.
Yeah.
And a lot of people feel like they're constantly being understanding, but they don't have a teammate on the other side. I'm constantly trying to grow and understand your position, but I don't feel the same from your side. That then becomes a problem.
How do you have a conversation so that it switches or becomes more of a equal partnership and teammate? If you feel like you're the only one being on the team, how do you get the other person?
I think we need to communicate a lot about the spirit of the relationship. You know what I mean?
Not keeping score.
Yeah, pride is a very hard thing to give up in a relationship because we become competitive often very quickly when we feel threatened. when we feel vulnerable, when we feel our partner's done something to hurt us. Now I'm so now how do I score a point or how do I? And that's, that's a just once you get into that cycle, it's like you're just, it, it spirals. It has to, one person has to be prepared to break that cycle. I'm not going to do that game. And I do believe that We have to love the way we want to be loved and we have to constantly educate our partner on what it is to love. Not from an arrogant place, but.
In.
A sense, both partners are always educating each other. By you do something I don't like and if I have a loving, compassionate response to that, I'm also showing you what I want this to be in reverse. When I do something you don't like, here's the response I want.
I'm not attacking you.
Not a game playing response, not a, you know, like if you see a partner, you're in the early stages of relationship and you feel your partner was really flirting with someone over there, having a conversation about something that made you feel uncomfortable, but from a loving place and from a kind place and from a place of that made me feel you know, it hurt me to see that and not, I'm gonna blame you and I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna get angry, but that, you know, that made me feel uncomfortable. Bringing an energy like that, most people aren't used to that in a relationship. We're not used to that standard of communication. We're used to doing something and then someone attacks us. Yeah, exactly. So I think it's educate, we're constantly educating.
Monogamy is something that we're going to be able to do or with the, there's always something better option and that it's more available now than ever, especially with social media, online dating, there's distractions constantly.
Yeah, you don't have to leave your house anymore.
Exactly.
You can pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed.
Exactly.
But we are by definition already doing serial non-monogamy. You know, most of us don't come to marriage monogamous. We've come to marriage after years of nomadism, sexual nomadism. So monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined throughout. You asked me before about how has marriage changed. But monogamy had nothing to do with love for most of history. Monogamy became about love with romanticism. It's the sacred ideal of the romantic ideal because the sacred cow, because Monogamy means I'm everything. I'm it. I'm the one. I'm chosen. I'm unique. I'm Iris. And if you are interested in someone else, it means I'm not enough. Versus monogamy, which was basically for patrimony and for children.
So how should we navigate this moving forward?
I think that in terms of monogamy. Look, if I had talked to you 70 years ago about premarital sex, and virginity was a precondition. You would have looked at me like, this is a taboo, this is impossible. Today premarital sex in the West, it's like nobody blinks an eye. It would have been inconceivable. If I had talked to you about going from families of eight children to families of one child, you would have looked at me inconceivable. If I had told you that we were going to be conceiving so many children to assisted reproduction inconceivable. So today when you say open relationships or non-monogamous relationships or periodically non-monogamous or monogamous, shall we dance, savage or, you know, or polyamorous, it all people will say, can't work, impossible. You know, the fact is monogamy is the new frontier, but you can have it as negotiated through divorce or through what most people have always done, which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery, or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non-monogamy. This is it. This is the options.
Right.
What do you think is going to be working the most?
It's going to be a little bit of everything. There are some people who really need stable, committed, monogamous relationships. They don't want open doors. And there are other people for which open doors probably should be the model from the start. That's kind of who they are, that's their curiosity, that's the way they live their life. And it's not because they're less committed or less loving. It's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way and it lives together with a certain arrangement. And all of that is going to be redefined as we go along. It's the factor what's going to happen. It will be the next frontier. But if you see it on the level of marriage, people say, you know, if you say, okay, let's look on the, you know, you have to look at it from the place of before marriage. You know, a Swedish philosopher said, Today, monogamy only exists in reality. It doesn't exist in your memories, and it doesn't exist in your fantasies. So, This is not because I advocate it. It's just, first of all, there's nothing to advocate. It's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners before marriage. We are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense of the word. The word has been in flux and we don't really know where it's going. We don't. What we know is that people still seek to connect People want to love, people want somebody who loves them, and how that will play itself out is the mysteries of life. But the fundamental human need for love, for connection, for passion, for transcendence will never change. The expressions, the forms, the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform. That's really how I see the evolution taking place.
Sure.
What do you think of what I'm saying?
Oh man, it's just so, you know, it's confusing because you hear so many different options that work, that don't work. You see people that love each other that go through breakup and divorce, and then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional toll that it takes on some people. Then you see people who are in committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty because they want to be able to explore, but they can't because they've made this choice and they've committed to it.
Monogamy is a practice. We are not by nature biologically evolutionary monogamous. It's a practice. It's a choice. And it's a choice.
It's not our makeup.
No.
And it's a choice. And monogamy is a continuum. You have mind, you have fantasy, you have memory, you have a lot of things. At what point do we become non-monogamous? Where does non-monogamy start? And all of these concepts are fluid concepts today. There is just no way to define it like that. So we make our choices and we make compromises. and we sometimes don't just do what we want. And we often need to think about the consequences of our actions. And we need to think about the larger picture and something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it for the next weeks and the next years.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think that in the era of self-fulfillment and the right to happiness, we don't have more desires today than the previous generations. We just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires. And we feel that we have a right to be happy, my personal happiness. The switch, the greatest switch, is from a social organization in which I think about the well-being of others. Collectivist thinking thinks about the well-being of others and I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well-being of others. to the other side of the continuum is, I have a right to pursue my individual needs and the others will have to adapt to it. And I think that we are a little bit on the extreme end of the other side at this point. We really take ourselves a little very seriously and sometimes at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and a commitment to, not just our partners.
The world.
The world.
So where should we be somewhere in the middle, you think?
In an examined state. I don't know that it's always in the middle, but in an examined state, in a state that doesn't just say, what I like, what I feel, the fact that I have options doesn't mean I have to exercise all these options. The problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore to make choices. Same with the cereals in the supermarket. Why would it be better with love? So, I could get better. I could get better. I'm like, you know, I'm a victim of FOMO. you know, I'm. How do I know this is the best? No, you don't.
Yeah.
When do I find the best? No, you don't. You don't find your partner. You choose your partner. It's very different. You know, if you think you're gonna find somebody who is the person who's gonna make you stop looking, it doesn't work this way. Because. No, it doesn't. Because at some point, your inner rumblings will start up again, and then you.
Will say, oh, probably.
You start looking. You know, it's like you just said, this is it. this is where I decide to put my roots in this moment, you know, and I'm gonna try to deepen them. I think we are all living with paradoxes of choice.
Yes.
You know, from which phone I get, but we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test the partner and beta test the relationship and check out to see, is it good enough or can I find better? Yes, you can. The fact is, you could you would find other. I'm not sure it would be better, but you definitely can find other.
Yeah.
And there are lots of people you can love, and there's only a few you can make a life with. And they're not always the same. There are a lot of people you can have love stories with, right? And have beauty. But they're not the person you would make a life.
How do you know when it's the person you can make a life with?
I think values enter into there a lot more. I mean. You can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with. They're just too different from you. They have not the same values as you. One wants a child, one does not. One wants to travel, the other does not. One wants a career, the other... Very major, different classes, different Weltanschauung, as they used to say in German. visions of the world. But you can love them. You can have a beautiful love story with that person and be transported in your experience with them. But you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build a home, a future, a trajectory, maybe a family, if you want that. That's not the person with whom. And for that you need more of shared vision, shared mission, shared values, stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings, but also in the domain of beliefs. It's different. Views about money, views about independence and separateness versus connection, views about emotional expressiveness, views about power.
Wouldn't you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people? that we have some of those differences. Maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs, but it's also different, unique, interesting, and so it also brings us together or do you think it's not enough?
I think that what attracts you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later. The very thing that is so attractive because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different.
Interesting.
So, of course it's a mix and match. you know, but what makes thriving relationships is not only feelings. It's a mix of feelings, actions, beliefs, touches, physicality. It's a more all-encompassing thing. A beautiful love story can be just about feelings and you can love more people people than those that you can make a life with. That doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love, but it means that there is a whole other set of ingredients that enter into the making of a life, which is the creation of a world. It's a little different. And in that world, you often can be on the side of, you know, there's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in couples therapy. this is a raw deal. I'm not getting my needs met. Where is my return on investment? Excuse me. Excuse me. Somebody owes you? It's like, wow. I am in a relationship for what it's going to give me. That is an important piece. Don't misunderstand me. But I'm also in a relationship for what I'm going to give. to this person, for what I'm going to give if I want children to these children, not just for what they're going to bring to me. It's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunken a tiny bit on occasion.
Right, exactly.
It's just like, you know, I mean, I'm part of that same, you know, landscape, but on occasion I think it's.
Like.
You calibrate it on occasion, Some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves. And some of us really need to think more about others. Some of us live with the fear that we're going to be abandoned. And some of us live more with the fear that we're going to lose ourselves. Some of us are better takers and need to learn to give. And some of us are consummate givers and we need to learn to take. and often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link. And that can be beautiful complementarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole and to learn from them. And we need both. You need to be able to think about yourself and to know what you want and all of that, but you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you, your family, your friends, you know, your loved ones.
Sure.
And that that's what will make the difference the day you die.
What if you've chosen someone that you love deeply, but it's unconsciously your unfinished business? Is that the wrong person for you once you realize, oh, they're never going to change, Or is that a point for us to reflect back and say, actually, I need to heal the past, accept this person for who they are, and be willing to flow within this relationship?
Well, what happens is, so you married your unfinished business, but so did they. And so if you can both recognize that, if you realize, hey, wait, we have a lot of conflict in our relationship, or we're really avoidant in our relationship, or we don't feel connected in the way we want to feel connected, That's a great opportunity for both of you to work out your unfinished business.
To heal together.
To heal together, right.
And so that relationship could thrive.
If you both are willing to look in the mirror at yourselves and do the work, yes, that could be a really beautiful relationship. And it could be very healing for both of you, in fact.
It could potentially be the strongest bond ever if you both were able to go through that. But if you're unwilling to go through that, Then what?
You're gonna be in-- Both people have to be willing. Right, well both people have to be willing. I mean, that's the thing. So it's like you may wake up one day and say, oh wait a minute, I have all this unfinished business and then your partner says, yeah, it's all you. You're the problem in the relationship. You know, it's kind of like in couples therapy so often I'll see something like someone will say, you never listen to me. And I will say, how well do.
You listen to them?
Right. Right?
It's always like-- if you're just yelling at someone all day, are they gonna wanna listen to you? Right. Right, so there's this dance that we do in relationship. And what happens is people are doing these dance steps and people become very, they become very ingrained. It's like, oh, here we go. You can script out people's arguments. You know exactly what they're gonna look like.
It starts with one thing and then.
It goes back into many different things where you're like, oh, okay. And you know exactly how it's gonna go and who's gonna feel what and who's gonna accuse the other person of what. And that's the dance. And so if one person changes their dance steps, the other person either is going to fall flat on the dance floor or they're gonna have to change their steps too if they wanna keep dancing. And usually, so we always say, you can't change another person, but you can influence another person. How? By changing your dance steps. So for example, we like to say insight is the booby prize of therapy, meaning people will come and they'll be like, oh now I understand why I keep getting into that argument with my partner. And so then they go home and they come back the next week and I'll say, well did you do something different when you got in that argument? Well no, but I understand why I did it. You have to be both vulnerable and accountable when you come to therapy.
How do we fight better when we are in constant repeat pattern every month or every week it becomes an argument around something for whatever reason. It's a pattern and couples start to notice it. How does one person or both people recognize and say, okay, I'm gonna change my dance steps and I'm gonna fight or dance better?
Yeah, the first thing is to notice sort of what do you own in this? What is your reaction? So we have a choice every time someone presents us with something. There's a great quote in the book, it's a Viktor Frankl quote, where he says, Between stimulus and response, there is a space.
And in that space lies our freedom to choose. Between stimulus and response, so between an.
Action happening and your response to the action. So your partner says something. There's a window of opportunity. Yes, there's that space. Usually that space for us will look like a breath. The breath is everything. The breath, really. If you don't breathe, you're screwed. If you need to take the breath or you will just respond, it's sort of like we have these neural pathways that are wired, right? And someone says something and you react not just to what that person in front of you is saying, but it goes back to something that reminds you of something from a long time ago. People who aren't even in the room are in that moment with you. And so that's It's that neural pathway. And so what you need to do is you need to take a breath. It's like a big stop sign on that road that's your neural pathway. So hold up the stop sign. You can even picture a stop sign in your mind. Stop. Breathe. Now you get to choose. How do I want to respond to this? Do I want to respond in the way I've responded the last gazillion times?
Right.
Which has not worked out well. Or do I want to try something different? So that's part one. Part two is perspective taking. A lot of people who are in really highly conflictual relationships have trouble with perspective taking. They can't imagine that the other person has a valid perspective. Now you might not agree with every piece of how they view this, but there's some overlap between how this person views it and how you view it, but you are not willing to see that. And so, I have this new podcast called Dear Therapist. And on the podcast, so much of what we do is we help people to take the perspective of the other person. There's something that you are not seeing right now.
Why is that so hard for people to see someone else's perspective?
Well, two things. One is because, you know, that unreliable narrator thing that we think that we are right and we don't want to be told. And so, what we hear when we say there's another perspective, we're not saying you're wrong. wrong. We're saying there's more to the story. So there's a difference between their perspective is valid as well is not saying your version is wrong. We're saying there's more. So people hear it though as you are wrong. And the other part of it is that there's a lot of shame. That people are sticking to a certain story because if they allow that other part of the story to come in, the part that they're responsible for will probably come up. and they feel a lot of shame. So when I see individuals in therapy, they come in and they tell me a story and they leave out the parts that they are embarrassed about, the parts that they feel like that was not my finest moment.
Like what? Give me an example. Like, oh, I screamed back or I did this.
Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, here's what happened or here's, this is the situation and my partner did this or my mother did this or my child did this or my boss did this, whatever. and they don't tell you these other details and they sort of trickle out later on. And they're very relevant to the story. But that's shame, right? And so, you know, that's why the therapeutic relationship is so important because you get to a point where you really trust the therapist and you're able to be really honest about what happened.
How much does shame shape our stories?
Oh, so much. I think that, you know, as humans, we want to belong. And what shame is about is, I'm not going to belong. I'm not going to be loved. The greatest human need is, you know, how can we love and be loved? And when you feel like there's something I did that people will look upon badly, they might not like me if I tell them this. That's just, you know, wired into us.
It's like the ego death to us. It's like the emotional death of, like, If someone knew this about us, they would not love me and I would emotionally die.
And I would be alone.
I'll be alone, yeah.
Yeah, and we need other people.
I felt like this way for many years where I opened up about sexual abuse about seven years ago and for 25 years, no one knew because I was so ashamed. And I felt like if anyone knew, how could they possibly love me or accept me? Or how would anyone want to date me or my family? How would they not disown me? These were the stories that I was writing. I was a bad editor. How does someone who's done something that they're not proud of in the past, who's had something done to them that they're not proud of, whatever, they've been in a situation that they feel shame around, how does someone start to process that shame to heal so that it doesn't continue to run their life and keep them imprisoned?
Yeah, well, I think they do what you did, which is you started talking about it. And I think you have to choose your audience, which is really important, especially as you're just starting out. So you want to make sure that--.
Don't tell your abuser who's the toxic relationship.
Well, you know, I think you have to really choose someone who's safe. And if you don't have those people, you know, I think a therapist is a really good place to start. But I do think that it's harder for men to talk about any things, whether it's sexual abuse or even you know, just sort of like anything they feel vulnerable about. And so men will come into my office and they will say to me at some point, you know, I've never told anyone this before.
And then-- Do women say that?
Yes.
So here's the thing. Women will say that. They'll say, I've never told anyone this before except for my mother, my sister, and my best friend.
Right?
You're the only one who I don't know.
I'm the only one, right. Well, I haven't told-- I told my book club. You know, whatever it is. They've told like a few people, but they feel like, because women, it's acceptable for women to talk about these things. And so they feel like they haven't told anyone because they still feel like there's some degree of privacy around it. Men literally have told no one.
No one.
And even if they have a great partner and they have close friends, they have a great family, whatever it is, they feel like, I cannot tell anyone because vulnerability for men in our culture is not okay. Even though we say that, so this is a problem.
Even though women say, I wish she would open up, I wish she would cry and be more sensitive, but then when they are, they're like, I need you to be strong right now.
Right, so this is exactly what happens in couples therapy. So I'll have two people sitting on the couch and I have a couple and say it's a heterosexual couple and the woman says to the man, like, I really wanna get to know you. I feel like we would connect so much more if we would just Open up to me, I wanna know what's going on inside there, right? And he does, and let's say he tears up. Let's say he actually starts crying in a way where like his body is convulsing, right? She looks at me like deer in headlights.
She's like how do I do you?
She's so profoundly uncomfortable. And this is the thing that she was asking for. So what she'll say is, I don't feel safe when you don't open up to me. And I don't feel safe when you're vulnerable with me. It's like Goldilocks. It's like not too much, not too little, but right in the middle. That's how vulnerable you can be with me.
I've been saying this for a long time that I feel like this is one of the main things that hurts all intimate relationships.
Yes.
When a person doesn't feel safe to share their emotions to the person that says they love them the most and actually makes them wrong for it or makes them less than or retracts their love when they're vulnerable. So I don't know the solution for this besides saying this all the time and besides saying ladies, like if you want a vulnerable man who's emotional, you have to accept him when he's emotional.
Well, not just accept but embrace. I mean, that's- Encourage. Encourage.
Because it's so much harder for a man in general in our society to be vulnerable based on what we've grown up with and based on what we see, that if you're not encouraging it consistently and celebrating almost, why would you expect them to keep opening up when they have something they want to share if you're going to make them wrong for it?
Well, right.
So that's exactly what happens. There's somebody I write about in the book who, you know, there's this tragedy that happens in the family and he feels like he has to be the rock for the family. He's like, My wife, she can cry about this, she can be sad about this, but if I break down, I'm the thing holding everything up. And that was just not true. Actually, that was the thing that was making their marriage not work, that was making him feel anxious and not sleep and not function well, right? And that was the thing that got his wife to, at a certain point, say, I can't be in this marriage if we can't connect. But he thought he had to be the rock for the whole family. He could not feel his feelings. And instead, what happened was when he finally said, no, actually this is tearing me apart too, that's when they started healing. That's when they started getting close to each other again.
What advice would you have to any woman entering a relationship, a new relationship with a male partner?
I would say make sure that there's no double standard in the relationship. Make sure that if you want an open relationship where there's lots of trust, you feel like you can come to each other with anything. You know, there's this saying about like you invited the lie, which means that when you don't give people the space to talk to you about something that's difficult, they will keep things secret from you.
They won't share with you.
They won't share with you and they will start keeping lots of secrets from you. And then they'll be like, later on they'll be like, really this was going on in your life? Why didn't you tell me about this? this because you created a culture in which they couldn't. So if you want to feel safe and secure in the relationship and you want that openness, then you have to really embrace it and make sure that you're embracing it not just with your words but with your actions. So your partner comes to you, they talk to you about something and you don't try to kind of shut it down, you don't get profoundly uncomfortable. If your girlfriend came to you and did that, like your best you would be like, oh, however you would be to them, why are you gonna be different to this person who is the person that you're spending your life with?
Why are, again, I don't wanna generalize all women, but why are women in general, I guess, wired that way? To not feel safe when a man opens up and shares an insecurity, a vulnerability, why are women wired that way?
These are artifacts of a culture that taught men and women, girls and boys when they're growing up, this is how you are in the world. And you see this as parents, right? So I have a son and I saw this, it was profound for me to see this. So when my son got to a certain age, when he was little and he would fall down and he would cry or whatever it was, everybody would be like, oh honey, at the park or whatever, little boys. Okay, at a certain age.
I like two, three, four, five.
All of a sudden it was like girls, they fall off the jungle gym, everybody's there. Boys, they're crying, it's like, oh, it's okay, shake it off, shake it off. I was horrified. Shake it off, like he might even have a concussion, right?
Shake it off, right? I mean, this is my whole childhood. It's like, you know, you play football. I remember breaking my wrist in a game in high school, and then just saying tape it up. It was just like, my wrist was broken. It's like hanging there, right? No, it's broken, I tape it up, I keep playing, because it's just I was like, no, keep it playing. Unless you're dying. I remember I broke my ribs in a game and I could not breathe and I was just laying on the ground. I could not move so I had to be like taken off. But you break an arm, you have a concussion once, I just kept playing. It's just, I'll just be tough. Right.
Right.
It's hard for men, making sure men stay accountable, but it's hard for men to, we have that mindset to switch it off and then be vulnerable and then switch it back on. Well, I have to be tough strong.
Well, so it's interesting you're using the words tough and strong because I think that what happens is that men start to associate tough and strong with not feeling. Like, I'm not gonna feel the pain of my broken wrist. I'm just gonna keep playing. I'm not gonna feel the pain of this breakup. I'm not gonna tell anybody about it, right? About how much pain I'm in. I'm not gonna tell people about the pain of my sexual abuse because I'm gonna be strong. And what they don't realize is that strength is actually being able to talk about these things. So when people make the call to come to therapy, I'm looking not only for what's not working in someone's life and why they're there. I wanna know why now, why this week or this month did they call? Because that to me is a sign of strength. And I'm looking for their strengths as much as what's not working. So they think, a lot of men think, and they'll say, they'll say like, oh, I'm so embarrassed that I'm here. Women tend not to say that. Women are like, I'm so glad I'm here. I've been waiting to do this. Right? So, to them, it's a sign of strength that they came because they value their health in that way. Men are like, I can't let anybody know that I'm here. Like it's a weakness. And I have to reframe it for them and say, no, the fact that you are here is a strength.
That's why I think it's really cool that Michael Phelps is talking about therapy.
And talking about-- oh, and all these basketball players too. To Kevin Love and all these people.
Talking about-- Demar D-Rosen?
Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's really important for us to see models of men that we're inspired by. I didn't really see that growing up of like a man that was going through challenges, they went to therapy or dealt with sexual abuse and talked about it openly. I never saw that model. So I just felt like, oh, I'm the only one dealing with this. This doesn't happen. But when I started to open up, it's crazy the amount of men that you mentioned like men never share, even to a friend. You never tell a soul where a woman in general might share three friends before they come to the therapist and say they've never shared. Good women, they make their own money, they're independent, they're kind, they're compassionate, they're loving, they've got their own vision, but they're struggling in finding the right guy who will commit. What do you think is missing from those women? Or is this a timing thing? Maybe it's like, hey, you've been trying this for eight, ten years and you haven't found someone. maybe it's still timing, maybe they haven't showed up in your life yet. But if they're going on dates, they're doing these things and they still haven't been able to find a partner that feels like a good match, the right match. What's missing from them or is nothing missing?
It's hard to say because you know, without knowing them individually the issues can vary. You know, I'll tell you what I've seen as common barriers for women. One of the most common and they may not like hearing this but One of the most common is a lacking of being in touch with their feminine side. And that only really plays a huge role depending on the type of man they desire. If they desire a very masculine man, man who has his stuff together, a guy who can be a leader at least has those qualities then not being in your feminine is going to work against you. You're going to come across more difficult you're not going to come across as someone that's peaceful. And again, I think every man, every man who has stuff going on for himself can say what he needs almost most importantly or at least near the top is peace. Every man needs peace.
Oh, man, I was saying that my.
Whole life, you know.
Peace.
And so, if he does not view you in that way because again, you project more masculine energy, you project more resistance, more of a difficult nature he's not... You can be the most beautiful amazing woman it's like... And he may want to sleep with you but he's not going to want to take you serious or marry you. So, that can be one problem. Another thing can be timing. You know, it's a lot of times is you... We have to understand everything doesn't happen tomorrow, there is a process to this. But in that timing what's important is that you don't drag on with the wrong men.
Yes.
A lot of women reduce their time or reduce their window of opportunity staying with the wrong guys, dating even the wrong guys. So, it doesn't have to be a committed relationship, it could just be you're dating and getting to know each other but you knew after a couple of days that he wasn't it. And yet, you're still letting it continue and what... Even though you're not fully committed in this relationship as an official boyfriend girlfriend, you're emotionally invested. And your ability to now be available to someone else is severely hindered. So, you're not going to be able to meet that great guy or that great guy may come across you here that you're dating this guy and say, I'm not even going to bother with that. And so, that hurts you. So, timing is it but you have to make sure you're leaving yourself available.
Here's a question do we stay in relationships longer when we haven't fully healed the past?
Hell yes. Absolutely.
I'll probably raise my hand here for pretty much every past relationship where I have known at different levels like something's not right, something's off. Okay, let's work on it. Let's try to make it work. Still things are off. It's like you have a knowing inside and sometimes you try to force it to make it work. And I'm as one to blame as anyone here. And what I realized is like, oh, I haven't fully healed certain things and it's why I've stayed in the past in relationships much longer than I probably should have. But I was afraid. I was afraid of hurting someone. I was afraid of hurting myself. I was afraid of whatever.
Yeah.
And when I started to learn that, like, this is something you talked about over and over, that the healing processes is the key process to build a foundation for the potential for a great relationship, for something to flourish.
Yes.
You want to have, you know, the dream is to have a rainforest of an environment in your relationship where things can grow, things can flourish. There's green trees around you. There's waterfalls. Not an environment of a desert where things go to die in the relationship.
Yes.
And I don't think we can truly allow things to grow if we don't learn to heal. And that's something that you taught me years ago, and you teach so many people around the world this. But if people don't even think they need to heal something, how do they do it?
They can't. There's no way you can't overcome an obstacle you don't believe exists. Right.
You know, I'm fine, I got this, nah, I've dealt with this stuff in the past. That was me.
Exactly. And so, the problem is most people don't heal until they hit a wall, until something knocks them on their behind and now they have to see things differently and accept the issues that they've been holding on to. But also, I think the problem for a lot of individuals is they're not healed and they're in environments with people who haven't healed either. And now, those unhealed people are going to validate your issues, they're going to validate your unwillingness to face those things.
This is so hard because whatever, guy friends, girlfriends, whoever you are and you lean on people and say this person did this and they validate you and say, Leave them. They're no good for you. You deserve better. You don't deserve that. They shouldn't be doing this, right? They start to validate to be on your side, but they're not healed either if they're coming from that place. Maybe they're correct on certain things, but it's learning how to communicate to your friends in a healthier way probably also.
Well, I think, yes, because a lot of people they tell their friends the bad and they don't always tell them the good. So, the friends have a very skewed perception of the relationship or whatever situation that you're facing. But we also have to be aware enough to understand who we're seeking guidance from. Like, I may speak to my friends because I need to vent at the moment or I want some feedback but I'm fully aware that they are not the end all be all to this that they may be speaking from their own hurt place. I still can filter their perspective through the understanding of they're not healed enough to give me full proper great guidance, all right. But they might give a perspective that I needed to look at and that's why I will still talk to them because I want to hear different perspectives. I want to make sure I'm not missing any blind spots here, all right. So, it's good to talk to different people but only if you understand how to not just take them at oh, well, my friends said this, so this is it. No, your friend may be broken too, and they're gonna lead you down an even more broken path.
Exactly. So, the conversations you have with some people, they're not healed and they're not helping you fully because they're validating something that you don't need to hear necessarily.
Absolutely.
Maybe some of it is right, but not all of it.
And not to mention, it can happen in other ways as far as like, I've seen people where the friend was in a toxic relationship that they were unwilling to leave. So, now when their other friend came to them about their toxic relationship is oh, you know, give them a chance oh, you know, cheating happens in every relationship. They'll come up with all these validations to stay because they can't look themselves in the mirror and tell themselves to walk away. So, how are they going to tell you to do it? All right. Now, some people can do that. Some people can still tell you opposite of what they're going to actually are willing to do. But a lot of people consciously or subconsciously are trying to validate how they would handle things or how they have handled things, all right. So, if it's I would leave because someone called me out there and out my name one time then I have to tell you that you got to leave for that reason. I can't tell you to be considerate of well, maybe it was a mistake, maybe this can be fixed. Oh, no, no, no, because I drew that line you need to draw that line. A lot of people don't understand how to give that unbiased advice. So, that's why you have to be very careful going to friends and family.
Healing is again, a lot of clarity comes through healing. You'll be able to see things differently in a relationship if you are from a healed place. I think a lot of us, myself included, have stayed in relationships longer than necessary because we haven't healed something yet. and that's what we stayed in them.
So.
Would you say that people who have healed and addressed the past, the traumas of the past, the pains of the past are much quicker to get out of a dating situation when they realize, oh, this isn't for me. Like, I thought it was gonna work out, but I don't need to keep trying for months and years to try to make it work. It's not working, I'm willing to walk away. Would you say people healed are able to do that better?
Absolutely. Basically, the more healed you become, or when you have become healed, your willingness or ability to tolerate toxic energy is diminished. You don't know how to operate or how to stay in those environments any longer because now you see things so much clearer. It's almost like if you were to detox your body and start to eat healthy. Now, you go back to eating some fast food and it will destroy your stomach. So, your willingness to eat that bad food is no longer there or at least it's diminished because now your body knows what healthy feels like, all right. So, emotionally once you get to a healthy place and you know what healthy is, you can't tolerate dysfunction as much anymore. You can't tolerate someone who does not want to face their issues. You know, it reminds me right now real quick of even when it comes to business or you know what, even when it comes to fitness. A lot of people once they've achieved great success or once they've achieved we getting that body they always wanted. They look at those who do not have differently. Before they may have been in that pool of people that said my circumstances there's nothing I can do it's too hard. But once you've achieved it and you knew what work it took to get there now it's like no, you're just unwilling. You don't have enough desire to push past the obstacles to get the results you're looking for. And so again, when you become healthy your willingness to tolerate this person just can't get past their issues. It's like no, because I got past mine. I know what it takes, I know you can get there if you're willing but so many are not willing.
Let's say you got in a relationship, you got married, you've been committed for a while and neither of you have healed. But then one of you decides, you know what? This isn't working. I gotta heal the pain from the past. They go on that journey. They get relief. They find peace in their heart. They're not triggered. Whatever it is. They've started and have continually been on the healing process. But the other person continues to be in their own traumatic past experiences. What if they're not willing to heal? Would you recommend, like, is that where they should be able to work still? Are you able to find ways to say, well, we still love each other and we have a lot of chemistry and connection most of the time. What would you say about that if the other person's unwilling to heal?
I hate to say this but I have to be honest, all right. I can never encourage someone to remain in a toxic situation, all right. I do think that we can take an approach that says let's see if we can work this out let's give them a little bit of grace here And the main thing is can we achieve progress, all right. Rome isn't built in a day and if we've been behaving or we've been tolerating this dysfunction for so many years we can't expect it to be perfect tomorrow. But are you willing to at least start to walk on that path and make progress? Though I don't want to encourage divorce I cannot feel comfortable telling people to stay trapped in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to face their issues. If you have freed yourself from that you have healed they've got to be willing to make a move. And here's the problem people are afraid to heal or people are afraid to face the issues that requires them to heal, all right. Because you have to... It's like I remember a quote I'm probably saying it wrong. To heal you have to face the pain or you have to dive into the pain something like that, all right. So, people understand it's painful to go and revisit your past. It's painful to let those emotions you've suppressed all these years come back out. And so, now your fear of healing or facing the process of healing is greater than your fear of losing this person, all right. And they think because you're married to them you're not going anywhere.
You're stuck for life.
Exactly, so for that reason, that's not enough incentive to face their fear of facing their issues. The only thing that may get them to do it is the threat of divorce.
Wow.
Or is the actual divorce happening? Again, it's not that I wanted to get to that point I hope and pray everyone can avoid that. But the reality is some people won't get it together until there's a real consequence on the table and that will be divorce in that situation.
So, okay, let's say someone's like you know what I feel like I'm good it's never been about me it's been about everyone else it's their problems that why the relationship doesn't work.
I got to stop you real quick. Yes, because this is like hitting my spirit I got to say Killing. The other thing to consider is that some people will never change, they will never heal. And the reality is that the person you're with is the wrong person and the only reason you got with them is because you were broken. Had you not been damaged in the first place then you may not be with this individual.
Because you wouldn't have chose someone like this if you were coming from a healed place.
Exactly, and if you were healed you would have been your true self, your true self may not have aligned with this individual. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances where people still end up with the right person when they were both not healed. I do think that's possible to happen. But a lot of people I would argue the majority when you... Because I always say if you're not healed you are 99% likely to choose the wrong person. So, I do still strongly believe that the majority of are with the wrong individual and that's marriage, relationship, whatever. Because that brokenness, that damage attracted something.
Else that was wrong.
Exactly, and allowed you to tolerate it or it allowed you to feel safer in that environment. Here's the thing that people don't realize when you have not healed, if you were to get with a healthy person it would essentially demand of you from the jump to basically heal or step your game up. And again, people are afraid to face their issues. So, to get with another broken person subconsciously it validates me staying broken. It validates me not having to face my issues because now we all have issues, you see. As long as we all have issues I don't have to face mine. But if you have corrected yours how can I validate my own?
Wow, what's your issues?
My issues?
The coach always has an issue somewhere. What's your biggest fear or insecurities around being in a relationship or finding the right person or dating or...
So, okay, I'll say fear. And I'm being very transparent. I've never said this to anyone else.
I know you have it. I know you have it. Your biggest fear.
My biggest fear has been can I remain focused and fulfilled in the relationship long term past a certain time? Meaning, okay, I have no doubts five years in, ten years in, I'm still good. But when it hits year 15, this is different. And again, it's because of one, I think a lot of people the issue that we have is specifically even with monogamy. Not saying that I'm going to be going out there cheating but I always say the issue with monogamy is that people struggle to maintain monogamy. And we struggle to maintain monogamy because we don't maintain who we fell in love with. with, all right.
What do you mean by that?
Meaning that person that I brought you and you brought to me that made us feel like this is it. It's different, it's different now. The thing is though, it can be maintained if it's the true you. Problem is a lot of people aren't being their true self on the jump. So, that creates a difference right there. Also, is there a willingness to grow together and that needs communication, that means connection has to be there. A lot of people have not gotten with that person they have a connection with. So, this is where for me there's fear but there's peace in knowing that I do believe if I'm willing to do my part to maintain who she falls in love with, all right. Whoever that woman is when that day happens, I'm willing to do that and that goes spiritually, mentally, physically, I have no problem sticking to the recipe that worked. And I'm confident in one end because I say you know what, I believe in connection. and I believe that that's the missing ingredient when I look at these relationships that have failed and haven't made it past that 10 year, 15 year mark I do think that the reason is connection was not there in most cases.
So, chemistry was there.
Chemistry may have been there at one point.
Compatibility.
Compatibility based on what they were presenting at one point may have been there but again, was it true compatibility they weren't being their true self and if they had not found their true self yet But connection was not there. And I think a lot of people get with each other based off the hype and that's the reason why I'm such a stickler on okay, I have to make sure I wait for connection because I want to make it past those 15 years. I want to make it for the long haul. I want to be a representation of what I speak about. I want people to look at my relationship and say I don't want it to be that fake relationship that people think is good. It's actually horrible behind closed doors. so, I want us to be amazing to everyone and inspire them. So, I have to wait for connection and me being a man of God I have to wait for that spiritual guidance that says this is the one that I can pray about this and God tells me she's it. Because you know, there's a lot of beautiful amazing women out there but everyone's not for us, right. And so, I think it's important to understand who aligns with you especially as a man when you're walking in your purpose and that's why it's so important for men to find their purpose because if you don't know where you're headed in life you don't know who belongs on that path with you. So, you've got to make sure that you know yourself, you know the direction you're walking in, and now you can see what woman can align with you and you guys can walk together as a unit and make it something amazing.
What's your definition of chemistry, connection, and compatibility?
All right, so, Chemistry to me is the art of getting along, flowing with each other, all right. Chemistry can be created, it can be destroyed. Think about it from a team sports perspective, you can put players together and they have to build team chemistry. So, through repetition, through practice they can get to a point of having chemistry. Yes, some people have instant chemistry, all right. But just as it was instant it can also be broken.
Instantly.
Exactly, you know. We can start to not get along and not flow with each other very easily things can get in the way and again, this happens even in team sports or even in the corporate arena where you have team building exercises but then things happen that destroy the structure of the business.
That's chemistry.
That's chemistry.
How important is chemistry?
It is still very important it is not the most important and I say that to mean chemistry has to be in every relationship for it to work and flourish. but it does not set the stage for everything else, all right? Connection sets the stage for everything else. So basically, if you have connection, you will be able to have chemistry and compatibility. But now let's talk about compatibility. I believe compatibility is a very logic-based structure of putting two people together. It's also about we're compatible in the sense that we share values. All right, so again, you can meet someone that you are quote unquote compatible with. You guys share similar values, you guys come from even maybe the same kind of cultures. There could be a lot of things that make you guys compatible on paper.
But what is real compatibility?
Well, to me that is real compatibility so to speak is that yes, you guys on paper are a good fit, all right. And you guys should work. But again, without connection it won't matter. So, I would argue that a lot of marriages let's even talk about arranged marriages some of them were built on compatibility. Well, this person came from the right family so, we like this, they have a good job, they have a good education, they would be a good fit here, they share the same values. But when those two people are really alone with each other, it doesn't always hit. Which is why if you go on an online dating site It can match two people together that are compatible on paper.
Interesting.
But in person, it doesn't always play out the same.
Because what is missing?
The chemistry or more importantly, the connection.
And sometimes we might be tricked. Oh, we feel the spark of chemistry, but you may not have connection. Is that true?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So you might say, oh, we're compatible on paper, everything. We have the same values. We want the same things for our life, and marriage and kids and where family's gonna be, we have compatibility. We have chemistry. There's some type of spark here. I feel like, ooh, there's a little something down here. Yeah, we feel that.
We get along and we know the flow of each other.
It's amazing. But you're saying, if we can't find true connection or if there isn't connection, can connection be created?
No.
And so that's the huge distinction to me with connection. Connection cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. it's either there or it's not.
Wow.
There's nothing you can do to build connection. You can build a stronger bond, you can create a stronger attachment to each other, but that still doesn't mean connection is there. And you see this play out in situations where you have people who could meet each other right now, have this amazing connection. Something happens where they fall apart, they come back together years later, 10, 20 years later and it's like they never stop talking. It just falls right back into place. It's connection, it's a deeper thing that's occurring there. To me, connection is your spirit recognizing its match. It is something that is happening beneath the surface, all right. Which is why many people who have felt connection, you can't always explain it. Connection does not always line up with the logic of compatibility. It's not always oh, well, it makes sense because of this... No, no, no, it's just there. you just feel something with this person, you feel drawn to them, it's so much deeper than anything you've ever felt. And consider this, you can be compatible with tons of people. You can have chemistry with tons of people, you do not feel connection with a bunch of people. Period. If we were to survey people who have felt a connection in their life, you'd be lucky to find many who can say two times.
Wow.
The majority will say it's a one time occurrence that has happened to them, all right. And being able to have that again, it's very difficult. Now, I don't want anyone listening to be discouraged if they did not end up with the person they had a connection with. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to happen a second time, but I will say that if you surveyed people, you would have a hard time finding that many people that say it said it happened twice.
Before we continue this video, make sure to subscribe below and turn on the notification bell right now so you don't miss out on these great videos every single day. Every girl that seems to be that I know is always like, Lewis, can you help me find a good man? It seems like women are just trying to find the right partner, find great relationship partners. And then when you're in a relationship, it seems to be like people are always struggling in relationships, whether it be intimate or work related relationships, business partnerships. Why are relationships seemingly so hard for so many people when it's the thing we need the most to feel alive, to feel happy and to feel connected?
I work with people in their romantic relationships, family relationships, friendships, co-founder, colleagues, co-workers. So love and work. the two pillars of our life, as Freud said. And if I could just say, why is the simple feeling of loving or caring not enough? Because the entire human drama is really complex. The same way as nature is complex, so is human nature complex. And I spent my whole career studying What is changing in relationships? You know, are they more complicated today? Are they more painful today? You know, have our expectations changed?
And.
That I have answers to. I don't have answers to why is it so, you know, but I do know that.
Is it more complicated now? Relationships than 50 or 100 years ago?
Yes, absolutely.
Why is that?
Why, for a very simple reason. For a long time, We live, and we still in many parts of the world, live in traditional societies where relationships are clearly codified. There are clear rules, there are roles, there are obligations. There's a tight structure from which you can't get out, but it tells you clearly who you are, where you belong, where you rooted, and what's expected of you. And you don't have too much questions about whose career matters more and who's going to wake up up to feed the baby, and who has a right to demand for sex, and what-- and everybody, every husband knows exactly what they can ask from their wife, and the wife knows exactly what she should not tell her husband, and children know their place, and adults can interact. All of this was super regulated. You know exactly that on Sunday you go to visit your family, and that you have to call your grandma, and that-- and nobody has-- and you go to church, or you go to any other religious institution, where you go to pray, to be with the community, etc. And you know what? Nobody needed to explain to you why it's important. You just went because I said so. And because that's what you do. That's what we do. And that's what we don't do because what will the neighbors say? And there is a community that looks over you all the time, and the streets are narrow like that, and everybody knows what's going on in the neighbor's house. Right now, your best friends could be breaking up and you didn't even see it coming. Nobody knows what goes on in the neighbor's house. That's where should we begin became, I think, so powerful. It gave you back a sense of what actually goes on in other people's lives so that you're not alone wondering, am I the only one who's going through all of this? This tight structure of our society has moved into what we call today network. network societies. Network societies is not tight knots, it's loose ends, it's loose threads with commitment that can be revoked at any moment. That's why your women are constantly writing to you. I thought we had something, and the next day he disappears. I thought we had developed a sense of trust. You know, where is the care, where is the loyalty, where is the continuity? All these things that now are not just set, fixed, they all have to be negotiated. Everything that was a rule is now a negotiation. A conversation. Who is going to go to work? Are we going to move you to the West Coast or are you going to move with me to the East Coast? Are we going to have children? Are we ready to have children? How many children? Do we even want children? On and on and on. Am I happy at work? Oh, I could do better. Should I stay? A few more months? Should I leave? Is this what I really want to do? Is this who I really am?
Is this my passion?
Is this my passion, you know, this identity quest the whole time? Is this who I want to be? Is this... And all of these questions are rather new questions. Why? Because in the past or in other parts of the world today, you kind of know who you are. Seriously. You're the son of somebody. Right. Even you're the son of somebody. It starts with that. Ben. you know, and you probably will even do what your father has done. If you are a man and maybe not do much of any of the outside the house if you are a woman, or you may begin a charting course of working outside the house. And all of these things are very, very normative.
And now it's different.
We don't have any of that at this moment. We basically, I call it the identity economy. We spend our time trying to figure out who am I? We have an enormous industry of self-help. You know, with this belief that we are self-made, that we can have selfies, that we do self-care. It's this self, self, self that is so focused, such the center of everything, and so fragile. The freaking self has never been more fragile. We are constantly making sure that it That it doesn't get overwhelmed, that it doesn't get triggered, that it doesn't get violated, that it doesn't get shattered because it stands there alone, like the little Dutchman with his finger trying to hold back the dike. And that is the times I think we are in at this moment. And that's the waters I think you swim in.
Sure. Well, I think that's where inner suffering comes from on the surface. is when you obsessively think about yourself. When you're obsessively self-centric thinking all the time.
Trying to improve yourself and feeling not good enough. I think it's the combination. Comparing... Now, I don't know that people didn't compare themselves when they all went and stood on the steps of the church on a Sunday morning. I think communities, people have always compared themselves, but there was a different type of social control. The one that we have on social media today. Social control has always existed. So suffering is part of life. Community and not being alone is what helps us with all our experiences, definitely with suffering. I look at the disappointments of relationships and the struggles that we have. Why are they so challenging? What is the challenge? What can you do about it? When is it you who can do something? And when do you have to realize the limitations that what you will do will not change another necessarily when it does and when it doesn't? And how does this manifest at work and at home? You ask me how relationships have changed. I think we've never had more expectations of love and work than we do today. I think we expect today from love and work many things that we expected before from religion and from community. We want our relationships to be transformative, transcendent, meaningful, spiritual, purposeful, erotic, passionate, and we want it at home and we want it at work.
We want it at work, too.
Oh, because we want work to be purposeful today. We want work to, you know, to give me a sense of of identity, of meaning, of self-fulfillment, of development. I don't just want to go to work only for the paycheck. I need the paycheck, but I also want the paycheck to be meaningful to me. Work has become an identity economy. It's not just what am I going to do, it's who am I going to be.
And.
It parallels. You know, what do we talk about at work? Transparency, belonging, authenticity, trust, psychological safety. I mean, when did the entire emotional vocabulary enter the workplace to such a degree that soft skills, what they used to be called, which are emotional and social skills, relational skills, which used to be seen as feminine skills, and feminine skills you can idealize them in principle, but disregard them in reality. And these soft skills have very quickly become the new hard skills. That's why I'm working in the workplace. It's not because I have changed, and I certainly am interested in work, it's because work has changed and is suddenly interested in what I have been doing for decades.
Society has brainwashed us to believe that love and identifying it takes time. That's a lie. In most situations when it takes months you have not fallen in love, you've learned to tolerate them. You've grown up tolerance. Wow.
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