90% of U.S. Babies Are Missing Key Gut Bacteria - Why It Matters with Stephanie Culler, PhD

Welcome to The Perfect Stool: Understanding and Healing the Gut Microbiome.

This is your host, Lindsey Parsons, and today I'll be speaking with Stephanie Kuller, PhD, co-founder and CEO of Persephone Biosciences Inc., a biotechnology company reimagining patient health through the development of microbiome-based medicines. Her microbiome interests span applications ranging from infant health to oncology and food as medicine. She has shared her work at TEDx San Diego, has been published in Science magazine, and is a scientific pioneer in the field of synthetic biology. Stephanie holds a PhD from the California Institute of Technology and has authored over 20 publications and patents on synthetic biology and microbial-based technologies. But before our conversation, if you haven't yet followed or subscribed to the show, be sure to do so. And if you want to get transcripts of the podcast, pop over to my website, HighDesertHealthCoaching.com, and sign up for my newsletter. You'll also get my recently updated free ebooklet, Finding Your Root Cause Through Stool and Organic Acids Testing, when you sign up. And if you haven't yet done my quiz on which stool or functional medicine test would help you get to your root cause, you can find a link in the show notes and take that. Now onto the show.

Welcome to the podcast, Stephanie.

Thank you for having me.

It's my pleasure. So can you tell me about your research on the infant microbiome and what you've learned from the study that you did?

Yeah, absolutely. So we've been studying the infant microbiome for several years now. We launched 3 years ago the largest study ever done in the United States to map the infant microbiome called the My Baby Biome Study. We published a few months ago in a Nature portfolio journal. And what we learned from looking at the microbiome of babies from 48 out of 50 states is that most babies today, about 90% or more, are missing key types of gut bacteria called Bifidobacterium. These are really fundamentally important microbes that make the foundation of the baby gut that help train the immune system. And we think it has connection to brain development. And with that missing means that the wrong microbes are getting into its place. And when that happens, children are much more likely to get errors in their immune system development. And we think it's linked to a number of chronic conditions, including eczema, food allergies, and asthma.

So I had always heard that the first one was the Bifidobacterium infantis. Is that what you found as well, or are there a number of them?

Yeah, Bifidobacterium infantis is one that we found that was the one that was over 90% missing. In addition to other species of Bifidobacterium in our data, using AI on this really large data set told us that there were 3 types of Bifidobacterium really important for babies, for their immune system development and kind of for the long haul. Like you and I should have all these types of bacteria. But I think what was interesting about it was that about 1 out of 4 babies were missing this type of bacteria in general, just completely gone.

And again, nothing for the entire genus.

The whole genus is missing.

Wow.

Which was really surprising to us and a sign that potentially these species are missing and kind of going away. Mm-hmm. They're going extinct potentially.

And what did they have instead?

That's what is very concerning. Instead, they had potential pathogens, infectious organisms, those had that have been associated with cancer, even colorectal cancer and other diseases. And so in that situation, it's a very inflamed environment. Many of these organisms produce toxins, which we have validated. They also have higher levels of antimicrobial resistance. Right off the bat.

So we'd love to get into names and details here.

Oh, happy to do that.

We can't have cut reports. They see things on there so they know these things. So, yeah. So what were the pathogens? What were the other bifidos specific?

So the 3 species of Bifidobacterium that are of most interest coming from this study, of course, is the Bifidobacterium infantis, the one that can use all of the human milk oligosaccharides in breast milk, special prebiotics only found in breast milk. In addition to that, our other HMO users, Bifidobacterium longum and Bifidobacterium breve. Those two, while they can consume some HMOs, they're really good at degrading plant-based fibers. And so that, that was what really interesting coming from our research. It's not only the really true infant strain, Bifidobacterium infantis, it's others that support the growing gut ecosystem starting in toddlerhood. And so those are the key Bifidobacterium that we're finding to be super important for infant and human development. But on the flip side, when those are missing, we saw an increase in Clostridium perfringens. This is actually an organism in some cases that is infectious, associated with gangrene, sepsis. We also saw Clostridium difficile, which is highly infectious. Many newborns do get Clostridium difficile and are treated with antibiotics. Sometimes that the pediatricians and parents detect as blood in the stool. Sometimes that is linked to C. diff. Other bacteria that we saw even connected to disease diseases, but also potentially could be pathogenic, are the normal E. coli, but various strains of E. coli. We saw Klebsiella in, in many cases, and for some of them, they are containing toxins that are associated with disease. So specifically the E. coli and Klebsiella were, were detected in that manner. Some babies had very, I would say, low levels of Fusobacterium, Fusobacterium nucleatum, for example. This in some studies has been linked to colorectal cancer. That is a biomarker in that field, which we've extensively focused on. And so I would say that's kind of the, the key variety that we observed, but definitely alarming because these were newborns. This is a 7-year study. The kids are now 3. Newborns should really have very high levels, maybe even upwards of 80%, at least 50% of their gut should be Bifidobacterium. And so we're now seeing with Bifidobacterium gone, the ecosystem collapses, right? And so we see anything that's really opportunistic that can utilize oxygen effectively taking hold in its place.

So presumably some of these Bifidobacterium are coming during birth, or are they transferred before birth? Do we know this?

Well, we, we don't think they're transferred from before birth. That's kind of an ongoing discussion in the scientific field. But the data that we are getting, I would say in the last about 3 years or so, are really suggesting if vaginally born, they do get many of these or much of these at birth if mom has it or if, if it's available. And namely through exposure to the mother's gut microbiome. You know, the birth canal and the vaginal microbiome is very simplistic. Lots of lactobacillus, but not the key diversity we see in the gut. And so that's how it's been clear to scientists and done a lot of studies looking at exposure of the mother's gut microbiome and what's in common with the mother's microbiome and the child. And that's what's led us to think that the majority of this seeding event happens at birth, but from the mother's gut microbiome. And this is in complete contrast to C-section-born babies because C-section-born babies automatically get the microbiome of the hospital, that early environment, but then also skin microbiome from families. And there's been some really elegant, you know, a couple nature journals recently, I would say in the last 6 months, studies that published looking at birth cohorts and the mother's microbiome and noticing that children do get Bifidobacterium sometimes a little bit later on after birth, if a sibling has it or it's in the daycare environment. And so it gets shared. I would say those are a little bit harder to get, you know, at those time points. But when we looked at our study, this was in newborns. This was the slate that we saw that most babies are missing these, these high levels of Bifidobacterium.

So to get down and dirty, when babies are coming outta the birth canal, they're supposed to be upside down and there's often expelling of feces.

Yes.

This is not by accident.

No, it's all seem to come together. And then breast milk, you know, having the prebiotics that they're not feeding the child. The third largest component of breast milk are human milk oligosaccharides, over 200 kinds of them. They don't feed the child, they feed the bacteria. So we have evolved over millennia. Millennia to have this perfect link, right? Mom giving the right microbes to child, then giving breast milk that feeds those bacteria and child. It's an interesting thing. Yeah.

Now, do any bacteria come through the breast milk? Can you make up for a C-section with, with breast milk?

Unfortunately, no. I mean, we, we think that there are some bacteria, maybe some lactobacillus, but when we look at a lot of breast milk and the microbiota, it's a lot from the skin. If that makes sense, given that organ and the, the exchange of the microbes and maybe some oral microbes from baby, for example. So it's, it's hard to tell, but, and it's also at a very low amount. I would say that the, the gut microbiome has more than 1,000 times bacteria, it, you know, for an infant than breast milk. So maybe a little bit, but you know, from our study as well as other studies around the world, when the child is missing these Bifidobacteria and the child is fed breast milk, the wrong microbes still thrive because they have adapted or they have certain enzymes that can serendipitously also use HMOs, right? Mm-hmm. And so it's kind of an incomplete picture.

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So I know, I don't know, back 5, 10 years ago when I was start— starting to look into this whole microbiome thing and I had, well, I, I have a child now who's 22, so I guess it's been a while, but I don't think I knew this at the time he was born, which was by C-section. But I know that for a while there, they were talking about trying to, you know, swab the vagina and then seed the microbiome. So now that they know that it's probably coming from the stool, are they actually, I assume they're not swabbing the stool and putting in the C-section baby's mouths.

No, but that has been a topic of discussion. I think it has been raised a few times and I think some, some groups are doing fecal transplants, but, but into young children. But I would say that's not. And that's where really, how do we put those— what, what's missing and how do we put it back came about.

Right, right.

So do all children who are born vaginally have good microbiomes then? And if not, why not?

Sadly, no. The majority of the babies in our study, regardless if they're vaginally born and even breastfed, they are still— their microbiomes are still compromised. Right. And we found in our study roughly about 3 out of 4 babies in the United States have— we, we determined an unhealthy microbiome, meaning that they either have low or no Bifidobacterium, right? Mm-hmm. And why we determined that that was the unhealthy state is that by year 2, because of health outcomes, by year 2, age 2, these are, are the children that are at 3 to 4 times more at risk for getting eczema, food allergies, asthma, and we think other conditions, right? And this is complemented by other research. And it all comes down to, it's nothing that we as parents have done. It is, it has nothing to do with that. It's all about modern life. It's about having a baby in this modern era because we think that the change in the microbiome has happened over the last several decades and the impact has come from antibiotics.

Mm-hmm.

The C-sections, potentially infant formula because it doesn't have those right prebiotics or the probiotics, and also poor diet lifestyle, right? And we think all of those have been impacting one, the mother to have those microbes, but even two, for the child to get it or even be exposed, right? We see less of these microbes in the environment.

Yeah.

I mean, I look at microbiome reports all the time for my clients and low bifido is very common, but low butyrate producers more than that. Of course, this is a more, you know, adult microbiome, but it's the same story. I just look at the same story over and over again. The question is which pathogen overgrew instead of what's supposed to be in there.

And I think what's really elegant about this and what I think truly fascinates me, Bifidobacterium are having a renaissance in the last few years. There have been so many high-impact publications because we're finally now getting to the genetics. In the function of these miraculous bugs. There's a reason why the human gut microbiome is— starts with them. They produce the right acids or the short-chain fatty acids, the acetate, lactate, which help bring down the pH of the early gut, which is exceptionally important because that inhibits pathogens from growing. But in addition to that, they also have secret weapons. They produce bacteriocins. These are peptides that can bind to the potential pathogens and inhibit them from growing further. And in addition to that, from the right HMOs, they produce metabolites, basically indole-3-lactic acid, 4-HPA, these tryptophan metabolites that come from the Bifidobacteria that engage the immune system to reduce inflammation and allow it to develop properly. So they really set stage for proper development of the gut, but also just how the gut works because the byproducts, you know, what it makes, acetate and lactate, it also gets eaten by butyrate producers. And so if you put back Bifidobacteria, you should— and we see in our clinical trials as well as others— that all of a sudden the butyrate producers are happy, they're growing, and they're producing more butyrate. So it's an ecosystem of cross-feeding that's really important here that sometimes people don't think about as well.

Mm-hmm.

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So then have you studied how the microbiome continues to develop over those early years and when do, when does the child reach like a more adult microbiome?

The adult microbiome starts to, of the child starts to look much more around age 3, 4. So as they go into kindergarten, it looks much more like you and I. It's still developing over time, but that rapid dynamic phase from starting out with just a handful of microbes, little after birth stops around 3 or 4, right? And so, but it's a highly dynamic period cuz the whole ecosystem is actually like blossoming at that point, you know, from a dozen microbes to hundreds like what you and I have.

Mm-hmm. Now I know that autism is on huge rise. And I'm wondering whether there's any research between the microbiome and, and autism.

I would say there's a lot of research being done right now globally. In fact, in a number of key publications, starting to see that the microbiome is very much a biomarker, right? We are noticing in, in autistic children that their microbiome is somewhat different. And we're trying to better understand what that means. And I think there's emerging data to start to look into causal relationships. Groups, as well as how could microbiome— there's microbiome transplants, um, that have been shown to be helpful for adolescents with, with autism. So I think the field is really emerging in that area, and that's very much of interest to us too, that if we can help develop better the infant microbiome, is there an opportunity to reduce the rates of autism? Could we have an impact? And then on the flip side, can microbiome modulation be used as a treatment effectively?

Yeah. And a lot of children I know are getting lots of antibiotics sometimes at birth because of, I don't know, maybe like strep B or because of C-sections or whatever else. So what can you do and/or your child's born by a C-section? What can you do at that point? Like how early should you intervene and what can you do?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, what the global data is really suggesting in addition to obviously the My Baby Biome study is that this should be standard of care. Kids today, modern kids need to be exposed to it in however way, right? And especially those via C-section and those that have received antibiotics. Kids, infants that have received antibiotics within the first year of life have an elevated risk. This is well documented, elevated risk for atopic disease conditions, the eczema and asthma, food allergies. And so really supplementation with Bifidobacteria, and if you can, HMOs is, is very, very important to enable that ecosystem. And it's the right species of Bifidobacterium, right? It's not Bifidobacterium lactis that ex— in yogurt, and it's not Lactobacillus. I know so many probiotics are Lactobacillus. Bifidobacterium, specifically these ones that we were talking about, the infantis, breve, longum, are keystone members of the gut, right? Keystone. Without them, the ecosystem collapses. Right. Lactobacillus is a transient member, and it's, has nothing to do with this. Doesn't colonize, for example, these colonize engraft and they're permanent partners to us. Right. So it's a, it's a very different thing.

Okay.

So tell me about the product that you developed to supplement the infant microbiome and how it was developed and when it's indicated.

Yeah. So we, based on the My Baby Biome data and the AI analysis, you know, we thought, saw these 3 species. B. infantis, B. breve, B. longum. And we realized that that's what's needed for these babies, basically microbiomes to be rebuilt and to thrive, right? To, to reprogram them essentially. And so in our lab, about 20 feet away from me, we isolated many, many strains of those 3 key species from babies who had it, right? Our platform, we take in the whole stool, so we're able to preserve the microbes in there. And so through extensive microbiology, We isolate a number of these strains, and because prior to infant microbiome research, we were working in oncology to develop therapeutics, we had developed a whole product screening platform. Essentially, we have developed what we call a microbiome avatar. It's a microbiome on a chip, so it simulates the microbiomes of babies. And so we could screen many probiotic candidates, those key Bifidobacterium species, along with the right prebiotic, which in this case are HMOs. And from that screening, we found a candidate that was very robust that could work across all microbiome backgrounds and commercialize that product. And we launched that late last year. It's available direct to consumer, but we've also completed a clinical trial on this in infants and toddlers. And it's, it's a dry powder, easy to use, could be mixed in milk, yogurt. As a child gets older, or older food, et cetera. But really it can be used for long-term immune system development, gut development, but a lot of acute things like constipation for infants, colic. We know that's connected to gut dysbiosis or dysfunction, general fussiness, crying with babies. We've seen it to have a tremendous impact in diaper rash. And from parents, they're starting to say it helps with other kinds of rashes and conditions. Like eczema and food allergies, which eventually we would like to take in a more rigorous clinical trial in partnership with the FDA. Mm-hmm.

So I know that there are baby formulas that have HMOs. Are the ones that are in your product any different from the ones that are in baby formulas? S—

um, slight overlap. This is a proprietary blend and we have 4 HMOs and they cover the 3 structural or functional classes of HMOs, and they're done at a ratio that mimics the ratio of how they're found in breast milk. And one tidbit to know, that there are some moms about— we, we think they're about 20% of mothers worldwide that has a mutation in one of their HMO genes, and as a consequence, they can't produce the major HMO, which is 2'-FL fucosylated HMO. And so that is one of the components of our HMO. So even if a child is breastfed and getting HMOs, this could be really helpful because those moms likely do not know that they have a mutation in their FUT2 gene.

Hmm. Oh, is this the, is this like the non-secretor? FUT2 non-secretor?

It's a non-secretor. Thank you. Oh wow.

Cuz I, I know if people have that, if they do a DNA report and I run it through my tool, I can tell 'em if they're a non-secretor. No, I didn't think about that as a—

yeah. So, so most people don't know their secretor status, but those who do, yeah, this is the kind of product that's beneficial to them. Absolutely.

Yeah. I don't have a lot of women of childbearing age in my client group, but I have a couple and a couple of people that were trying to conceive and, and some of them do, do DNA testing and—

oh, that's great.

Yeah. And I can tell them they're non-secretors.

Yeah.

I know those people also need to sort of work harder at feeding their own microbiome in terms of fiber and such.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. So I know that people with new babies are super paranoid about giving them anything that they might perceive as dangerous or unnatural, and doctors are wary. So if you have a child who already has a good microbiome, could taking your product cause any harm?

No, I mean, this is completely natural, right? These are all isolated from babies. They exist in us, right? And the HMOs are what's, they're identical to what's in breast milk, right? And we, we haven't seen that. You know, we have given the product to babies that already have some of these microbes. In fact, it helps with those, the development of the butyrate producers, right? And these microbes again reduce inflammation. So basically everybody can use it at some point.

So I understand that you originally started your company and you've already mentioned this to, to research the link between microbiome and cancer. So can you talk at this point about what microbiota are associated with cancer?

Yeah. Yeah. So we've been looking at microbiome and cancer in two ways. One, how can it be a part of how someone gets colorectal cancer, right? Could we think about intervening in somebody's 20s to prevent colorectal cancer? That's been a, a longstanding interest because there are many microbes in the gut that have shown to be causal. The Fusobacterium nucleatum that I mentioned earlier. Is causal, has been demonstrated to cause colorectal cancer, as well as various strains of E. coli and even Klebsiella that contain a toxin called colibactin. It causes DNA breakage that can lead to mutations and has also shown to cause colorectal cancer in that link. So, you know, that's from the prevention side. From the treatment side, we've been really interested. There's been So many studies. In fact, even last week in Nature Medicine, there was a publication of fecal transplants from healthy individuals into people with advanced stage non-small cell lung cancer and how that could change how they respond to treatment, right? It improve their response. It's been shown that microbiome alterations, essentially an unhealthy microbiome, I'll define that in a second, one that has much more higher level of pathogens. Is more linked to non-response in treatment. This is immunotherapies, but it's also chemotherapies and other treatments, but namely in immunotherapies. And so we've been trying to understand through the collection of a lot of microbiome samples from cancer patients, what is that secret sauce of the gut microbiome for those that respond and how could we incorporate that into a microbiome therapeutic? And you know, So why this is full circle for us is that when we started to look at the infant microbiome and see the dysbiosis, the damage, right? When the Bifidobacteria are missing, we saw a lot in common with advanced stage cancer patients that we were profiling. They basically have an ecosystem that collapses high levels of C. diff, they have the Fusobacteria, they have Bifidobacterium fragilis, B. frag, for example. They have the E. coli, the Klebsiella, they have all these potentially infectious organisms and many of them gone so many rounds of antibiotics unfortunately because they are immunocompromised. They do get sick more often. They are at risk of getting bacterial infections. And so that was for us the light bulb that we really need to do something in infant because we saw so many common al— you know, how could a child's gut start from something that was already so damaged and so unhealthy that we've seen in this older population that has a disease, an advanced stage disease. And so that's what we see in the cancer patients. And so that's why we were so poised very quickly to fix what, fix what's happening in the infants because it's a mini version of what's happening in adults.

Yeah. Hey, this is Lindsey here, just letting you know that if you're tired of dealing with digestive issues, like bloating, indigestion, soft stool, diarrhea, constipation, reflux, IBS, IBD, or the numerous health conditions that come about when your gut is off, like brain fog, weight gain, UTIs, fatigue, mental health issues, or complex conditions like fibromyalgia and ME/CFS. That's my specialty. With my 3 or 5 session gut health coaching packages, we'll discuss different stool and functional medicine tests to find out the root cause of your symptoms. I'll interpret the results and provide clear explanations, empowering you to make informed choices for your gut and overall health. And together we'll develop a customized action plan based on your test results so you can find relief and regain your health and vitality. I come from a functional medicine perspective, trying to incorporate the latest peer-reviewed research and educating you on protocols used by functional medicine practitioners, but devoting lots of time and support to my clients the way a doctor simply can't. If you're interested in a 3 or 5 session coaching package, you can sign up for complimentary 30-minute breakthrough session. Or if you can only afford one appointment at a time, you can book an initial 60-minute consultation. Links for those are in the show notes. Now back to the show.

So on my stool tests that I see, I, I often see people with Fusobacterium. They don't tell you on one of the ones I do which species it is. They just tell you the genus. And on the other, I do see it and I have done like a Tiny Health, which is one of the companies that's interested in the infant microbiome. I've done one of those. A couple of those myself. I saw the Fusobacterium nucleatum and I, so I use this dental rinse cuz it comes from the mouth a lot of the times.

It's called dental side. Yes.

And I give it to everybody who has Fusobacterium because I'm like, I don't know which one you have, but none of 'em are good. Like they're all 8 or 9 of 'em. Like everyone is pathogenic. So I always give everybody dental side and see if we can wipe it out. And sure enough, like in my next report I didn't have anymore. So I mean, to some extent I think it is coming in through the mouth, but I don't know.

It is.

Know any more about that.

Many, many of them are, are oral microbes. Labs, and there was a, I think it was a Nature Microbiology publication last year that did go down to the strain level and of Fusobacterium nucleatum and isolated, I don't know, 50 or so isolates because there was this link to mouthwash and hold 'em below. You know, not all of them were bad, but many of them did have the toxins, right? Mm-hmm. But to your point, it's almost impossible to know. Unless you're doing that deep sequencing and identified those toxins. It's actually something very, very difficult to do. That was the crux of that publication. But yeah, that, that's the thing is we get older, the inflammation, thinking about inflammation, you know, the microbiome should be in our gut, should be anoxic. There shouldn't be any oxygen. And so we know that things are starting to change in the wrong way, or at least start going unhealthy if there's some tolerance to oxygen and if there are species that are thriving in that. So that's a, it's a very good point that you're bringing up.

Yeah, I know that's a super common phenomenon I see where people have low butyrate producers, they have high proteobacteria. Yes. I know that they've got too much oxygen in their colon and I give them butyrate or Tributrin, which is one of my products to try and reduce that oxygen to try and promote the butyrate producers. And then of course fibers to try and remake that microbiome. So I'm on the job, but yes, a lot of people out there who do not know about this stuff and who are just suffering unnecessarily and potentially leading to future sickness and disease and all that.

Absolutely. And also like physicians, because this is such cutting-edge research that they may have not been exposed when they were in school. Right. And further updates, it's, yeah, it's, it's still really in the research phase right now.

Yeah. So how long do you think it'll be before we have a gut supplement that people could take that's something short of a full FMT and much more affordable than the current products? I know there's like Faust and rebiota and stuff that, yeah, they could take prior to doing immunotherapy.

You know, that is my dream. That is the mission of, of the company. I, unfortunately, I do think it's gonna take 10 to 15 years. You know, we've been as a company in this space for almost 9 years, so nearly a decade of research. And our tools, I would say, have only gotten really good in the last few years. Our bioinformatics analysis, our AI capabilities, but also how we sequence. You know, when we first started sequencing microbiomes 8 years ago, 50% was dark matter. We didn't know what a lot of the, you know, when we first sequenced my microbiome, 50% was unknown. We're now 99.99%. Confident in what we're calling as being in the gut. But because we now know that today, we have to start figuring out the function. So I still think we're a ways away. We have good biomarkers in oncology coming to fruition, but how you translate that into the product is still the biggest challenge in the field. And so that's for us why we took a step back and we're like, let's literally take baby steps. Let's fix the baby microbiome first and then keep going and then get back to adults and then eventually to cancer therapies.

So in the adults, are you finding that they are completely depleted? Cuz I mean, I see microbiome reports and even the people who are like the worst off, they still have some of virtually everything. They still have some of the good butyrate-producing microbes, just not like they're depleted, but they're not gone.

Yeah. They're very low levels. We don't see like in, in the infants because it's different, it's developing, right? We as adults, we've We have something that has developed, it may just be starting to get worse over time. And really what we see, we, we do see two things. We do see a lack of diversity. So for some of these advanced stage cancer patients, we may see 50 or 70 microbes, right? Versus several hundred. And then when we see lack of diversity, it's also that there, it's dominated by a few species. So you may see 40% E. coli. You may see 20%, so very imbalanced. So lack of diversity and imbalance are the key signs of what we've been observing.

Yeah.

So I mean, in my work, what I've started to do a lot more of is not try and feed them the probiotics, but rather just feed them with the prebiotics that feed those microbes. So I'm wondering if your research is looking into that aspect of it.

Absolutely. And I think for a lot of people, that's actually an area that we're working on in Food Is Medicine with our partnership.

Microbes.

That's another area we think is really important. It's one thing to put back the microbes, to your point, but then we need the right prebiotics through food, potential additional supplementation. I think that for a lot of people, prebiotic supplementation, if they already have a decent repertoire, could be helpful. But then for a lot of people who do need massive shifts, that's when you have to incorporate the probiotics. But we need to be very mindful, and I think this is where the science is going, is that that the prebiotics that you're giving, you really should tailor it in some way to the probiotics so that they can thrive if you're making that intervention, cuz you do really want to shift that population.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, well, what I mean, I, what I try and do is tailor it to the microbiome. So I see, okay, they've got good enough levels of Faecalibacterium prausnitzii, but they have low Roseburia and, you know, and then each fiber feeds a certain bug and I try and build it up to, to do that.

Or many of them, right? So, yes. Yes. Yeah.

I mean, to the extent that I know the good butyrate producers and they're low on butyrate, which is virtually everybody I see.

Pretty, pretty much, you know, in the United States that's gonna be common. Yeah. They have low to no Bifidobacteria, low butyrate producers. Yeah. Everybody can, can improve on that.

Yeah. If my message to everybody is eat more beans and lentils.

Yes. Thank you. And, and anything fermented.

Yeah.

Yes.

So, but the, the bifido don't come in fermented food so much, do they?

Or a little bit do.

Okay.

There's some like kefirs that have it incorporated. You can here and there. I don't know actually how much gets in, to be honest.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Yep. Okay.

So can you tell everybody where they can find you and your product?

Yes. So the products are available on our website, persephone.bio.

Biome?

Bio. B-I-O.

Oh, okay. And so there's gonna be a code for my listeners for discount.

Yes. So for, for all the listeners today, you get a special code, PERFECTSTOOL30. You can enter that at checkout for a 30% discount.

Okay.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing that with me. Any final thoughts before we get off?

Yeah. Thank you for your time.

Yeah. Well, thank you.

So you can look in the show notes for that link to Persephone Biome and use my code PERFECTSTOOL30, all lowercase, for a 30% discount. And I hope those of you who will have children or no children tell people about these products because this could really change the life of a child and certainly of the parents who need to raise them. You could support the podcast by buying supplements at a discount from my full script dispensary, ordering tests at a discount from my Rupa Health Lab store, or using my affiliate links to iHerb, which is available worldwide, or Amazon. And just a note that you can use my Amazon link to buy anything, so I'd appreciate it if you'd bookmark my link and use it not just for supplements but for gifts and everyday items to support the podcast.

If you'd like to connect with me online, you can follow my High Desert Health Facebook page, join my Gut Healing Facebook group, or join my newsletter list at highdeserthealthcoaching.com, as well as follow me on Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, Mastodon, and X. Links for those are in the show notes. Thanks for joining me today, and here's wishing you all the perfect stool.