# 23: The Happiness Club with Jo Howarth

Happiness is being able to navigate the difficult, challenging, bad, unwanted, whatever you want to call it, stuff, and understanding that there's value in doing that.

Hey, Coach, my name is Lindsay, and I'm here to help heart-centered women like you build the money-making coaching business of their dreams. I've been coaching since 2019, and this pod is about So much more than building your business. It's about using your gifts to build a life and business you're 100% obsessed with. I went from working 50+ hours a week as a first grade teacher to building a sustainable business that replaced my job salary and gave me back 30+ hours a week of my time. Tune in to join the ride and learn from other coaches and experts along the way. All right, welcome, Jo. Thank you so much for coming on to the Aligned Coach Podcast. I am so honored to have you here today.

Thank you very much for having me. I'm really pleased to be here, and I'm amazed at the technology that has me in the UK and you in Georgia. Right.

I know. I know, I love that. I love asking, so what part of the world are you from? Because you literally never know what someone's going to say. It's so cool.

That's ace. So yeah, I'm Jo Howarth, and I run The Happiness Club, which is an online membership club where we teach people how to live happier lives, basically how to leave the— well, how to deal with the negative stuff, the difficult, challenging things that life throws at us all, and focus themselves positively just so they can live properly happy lives, even when the stuff that's happening to them might not be that happy, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. It makes so much sense. It's something that I think that we don't have enough of, you know.

Well, I think when people talk about happiness, and I get this quite a lot, people say, oh right, so you just teach people to stick a silly smile on their face and pretend everything's okay and, you know, ignore the bad stuff. And that's not it at all. That's not what happiness is to me. Happiness is being able to navigate the difficult, challenging, bad, unwanted, whatever you want to call it, stuff, and understanding that there's value in doing that, that there's value in navigating that, that there's always learning to be had from it and growth to get from it. My utter opinion is that that's why we're here, to grow and develop and expand. And it's the, it's the more challenging times of our lives that give us that opportunity to grow and develop and expand. So they are just as valuable in terms of a happy life as the good stuff.

Yeah, because how would we know otherwise? Like, if we didn't have the bad stuff, you know, like, how would, how would we know what the really good stuff was if we never experienced some level of pain or some level of, like, discomfort? I like to think.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the best analogies I've ever heard about it was imagine a buffet table filled with all the same food. It's all the same color and it all tastes the same and it all looks the same. I mean, literally, how boring is that?

Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

And when you— but when you go to a buffet table, it's got all different colors and shapes and sizes and tastes and textures, and it's all different. And you might pick something up and really not like it at all, but at least you tried it and now you know. Do you know, I'm not going to go back there and try that again. I'm going to have the things that taste delicious over here, but they taste double delicious because you've just eaten something that really didn't taste very nice. I just love that. I wish I'd made I made that analogy up, but I didn't. But I love that analogy because that's life, isn't it? That is life. It's, you know, it's about experiencing all of it, being open to experiencing all of it, and not just being open to experience the stuff that feels good.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I'm assuming that you have like experienced things in your life, right, that have brought some level of pain or some level— not even pain, I keep saying that— but like, you know, like things that have made you unhappy, right? And that you had to navigate through it to find the other side and to find happiness and to find peace and things like that. Would you want to share on anything?

Like, yeah, I'm happy to. I grew up in, in a fairly dysfunctional family. My parents split when I was young, very young, and my stepdad was an alcoholic. So that was interesting, shall we say, as a small child. And I grew up without much confidence, without much self-esteem. It was a really negative environment to live in. And then when I was 25, my biological dad, who had been part of my life obviously, passed away very suddenly of a heart attack. Literally, he was there one day and gone the next. And it really was the universe delivering the biggest slap round the face that I've ever received in my life. I was on a fairly treacherous path, shall we say, in terms of my personal relationships at the time. I was in a fairly emotionally abusive relationship because that's what I'd grown up with. So I was just repeating my patterns as we do. And yeah, my dad dropped dead and my entire world turned upside down, inside out, back to front, and sent me— I was completely, completely and utterly lost, totally didn't know how to put one foot in front of the other. I was 25 years old and I just had no idea where I was going, what I was doing, how to get there, none of it. I had a very good friend of mine who was having therapy at the time She'd had a similar upbringing to me, and she came home from a therapy session one day and said, "You know what? I spoke to my therapist about you today." Oh no! I know, that's not good, huh? And I said, "Oh right." She said, "Yeah, I told him about what was going on for you, and he said to me, 'She needs to come and see me. Tell her to come and see me.'" And up until the moment that she'd said those words to me, I thought that therapy was the biggest load of bunkum. That I just thought was rubbish. Like, if you couldn't just bury whatever you needed to bury and get on with life, then— Right, right, right.

Just cover it up and keep going. Yeah.

Pretend it's not happening.

Yeah, toughen up.

Yeah, soldier on, you know. Come on, keep going. Stiff upper lip, as they say in Britain. All of that. But when she said those words to me, I was— I just knew that she was right, that I needed help, because I did not have a clue. I just was lost. And so I started therapy and it was just a revelation. It just— I'd never met anybody that thought the way my therapist thought, that saw the world in that way, that could help me see the world and myself in that way, more importantly. And it just— it took time. I had quite a lot of stuff to sort out, shall we say.

A lifetime's worth, right?

Yeah, absolutely. 25 years' worth. And I mean, I went to talk about grief for my dad. And I don't think we even talked about my dad for the first 2 years. So much other stuff to uncover and release and let go of. And so yeah, it was just, it was transformation. I wasn't like instantly fixed or, you know, I believe anyone's broken these days. I did at the time. I thought I was very broken. But it set me on the path and and the path to actually training myself to become a therapist and a mindfulness practitioner, so that I could hold the hands of other people as they went on that journey themselves. Because I had the best person to hold my hand, and I wanted to be able to do that for other people. I wanted to be able to help them transition, you know, for as long as it took them to do that, make those changes on their journey. Because we all go at our own pace, we all go, you know, do the changes that we can do. And I mean, I'm a massive fan of therapy now. I go back for therapy on a regular basis. Every time something comes up, I'm straight on to—

here I go.

Let's, let's see what we can uncover this time.

Yeah. And isn't it funny? Or I don't know if it's funny, I don't know if that's the word, but like how we do the work and then something will come up and we're like, wait a minute, I thought I've already worked through this. Why is this coming back now? And so then you have to like go do more work on that same thing. Do you ever, do you ever experience that? Like, because I, you know, come up through like a similar upbringing in my childhood and my parents were together physically, you know, but just a very like unstable home and stuff, you know. So I find that like I'm constantly like doing work around that, you know, trying to be the best mother that I can be and like being the best wife. And, and I think that almost it has— not like pour all my problems out here or anything— but that it's almost like manifested in like overachieving, right? Like over— like doing over too much. Like I want to go and do all the things, right? To almost like make up for the things in childhood. Like, I don't know. So I find myself coming back and I'm like, wait a minute, like let me do some work on this. Wait a minute, you know? So it never really like goes away.

You know? Yeah, I find very much when, whenever I— what they call in business, they call it upleveling, don't they? Whenever I—

Yeah, yeah, that's what they call it.

But whenever I come up to that point where I know I'm taking a step up in some area of my life, then all that stuff kind of— it's not, it's not the same. It doesn't come back in the same way, but, and to a lesser degree. The more work I do, the less it comes back, the less strongly and less strongly. But my, my personal nemesis is, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. That's my limiting belief, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. That's like the inner fear, like the thing that always comes up in like a different way. Like it may come up like a different problem, but it always comes down to that. Yeah.

And I'm similar to you in that, that's my, that's one of my, you know, core limiting beliefs that I'm not good enough. And so what that makes me do is, and I only realized this about 6 months ago, I was like, oh my God, I'm a high achiever. I have so many, but I've never noticed. I never realized before because underneath I don't feel good enough. So I don't recognize. I do all these things. I have ideas like there's no tomorrow flowing out of me all the time. I create all these new products and services and all of this. And I realized that actually what's fueling that, what's fueling that sense of needing to achieve, is the fact that I don't feel feel good enough. So again, even in that sense, thank God for that belief, because what would I create without it?

You know, it would be so boring. I mean, we would be so boring, and who knows, like, what we would be doing with our lives. I'm looking at, like, your bookshelf back there, and I have a bookshelf, like, with all these books on it, you know, and it's like always learning more and, like, doing more and, and just, like, wanting more. And so it's like, yes, like, in one way, that's like a childhood wound that, like, we've we've lived with and are constantly like having to work through to uplevel, right? As us business coaches say. And then on the other hand, it's like, but that is like what makes us us, you know? And that's how, that's like the lens that we get to help other people through, you know? Like we like empathize and we can actually feel what it's like to feel like that, you know? So I guess like our stories become our superpowers, you know?

Totally. And I think I wrote some content for the members of the Happiness Club recently, and one of the things I wrote was, you know, one of my biggest skills, one of my strongest skills, is the ability to think on my feet, right?

Yeah.

I used to be a corporate event manager when I was a grown-up. I used to be a corporate event manager, and that's all about thinking on your feet because you have to just go with the flow of whatever happens. It's got— and you've got to make it right. If a disaster happens, you've got to make it right, and nobody needs to know that the disaster's happened. It's all about thinking on your feet. As a therapist, and a mentor, again, I'm thinking on my feet all the time to do the best for the client. And I realized that that was one of my strongest skills. But I also realized that actually it comes from being ridiculously anxious as a child. I had anxiety from the day— from when I was 5, from when my parents split up. I didn't know at the time that it was called anxiety, but— and it's very much part of the reason why I do the work I do, because I spent a lot, a lot of years experiencing anxiety without really even knowing that's what it was. But I learned how to walk on eggshells. I learned how to think on my feet, because you had to, because you didn't know what else was, what was coming around the corner next. Especially with, God love him, an alcoholic stepfather. You had literally no idea what was coming around the corner next. So you had to think on your feet, and you had to be able to get yourself out of sticky situations and all kinds of things. So actually invaluable. That's invaluable. That skill is now one of my strongest skills. It's one of the reasons why I'm so good at the work that I do. And it comes from— I'm trying not to swear now.

No, you can totally swear.

We drop a swear like a trooper normally.

I love it.

But it comes from utter shit. It comes from shit. But it's one of my most valued skills now. So again, who would I be if that hadn't been?

You know, it's Oh my gosh, I relate to this so much. That's like, I like to say that one of my superpowers is like problem solving, like just solving problems and just being very quick. Like, you know, whenever clients and they're like, Lindsay, like this is what I'm dealing with and I don't really know what to do in this and how to promote this and they're like launches. And I'm like, well, boom, boom, boom, like we'll do this, this, and this. And they're like, what, how did you come up with that? And I'm like, I don't know. But now that you say that, I'm like, oh, maybe that resiliency is actually anxiety. Maybe it is like deep-rooted, like anxiety, like at a core level. But yeah, yeah, that is good stuff. So, yeah. How do you, like, what do you, OK, so I know that you said that you worked in therapy, right? So, now you are like in the online space. Have you, because the Happiness Club is like an online club, right?

Yeah, it is an It's an app-based club, so it works a bit like a Facebook feed. So we send the members what we call daily strategies, so they get something every day. And that came from, again, from my experience of therapy and from my experience of being a jobbing therapist when I first started out. Because when I was in therapy, I used to say to my therapist all the time, because I got this like, I got this hour, hour and a half every week with this amazing person my mind literally every time I spoke to him. And then I would have to go out into the big wide world all by myself for a week, yeah, before I got that hour and a half again. And I'd have to manage by myself. And I used to say to him on a regular basis, okay, so please can you come home with me now and just like just live in my dining room, and every time I need you, you just be there and tell me what to do, right? Which obviously you don't do as a therapist anyway, but there you go. And then I became a therapist like 15 years later, and then I had people saying the same thing to me. I had clients saying to me, "Okay, so I want to put you in my pocket and take you home." Yeah. "And just so you can just sit on my shoulder and tell me what to do, or tell me how to feel, or remind me of that thing that you said," whatever. And so I wanted to find a way— I set the club up originally as a way of further supporting my one-to-one clients because I wanted to find a way for me to be able to be in their pocket without them actually having to take me home because I have my own family, so, you know, who I quite like living with. So the club was partly in answer to that, was for them to have a connection to me every single day, for me to be able to say to them every day It's okay, I've got you. Remember this, think about it like this today, try this today, have a think about this today. And then it grew from there. So yeah, the daily strategies are what for me make the club utterly unique. I've not found anything else in the online space that does what we do. Because— and someone described it to me recently which I tried to take as a compliment, which they said, it's a bit like having your favorite auntie on tap. You know, it's like when you find yourself in that sticky situation and you pick the phone up to your favorite auntie, it's like she's there every day with you already. Yeah.

Which I took as a compliment, but I'm thinking that it's like a better outlet for codependency. It's like a healthy form, right?

Yeah, hopefully.

No, I think it's genius. I think it's great. And it's a lot like what in the coaching industry, like private coaching, like we'll do like Voxer, like you have like Voxer access. So I have clients that can like message me throughout the week and get like, I'm literally like in their back pocket. So like it reminds me of that, but just more for like, you know, mental health and like for happiness and mindfulness and things. So very similar. To that.

Yeah, very much so. And then we surround— I mean, I very much see the club as me putting my arms around all the members every single morning and just, I've got you, you're all right, it's okay, you're safe, you're loved, and everything's fine. And like I say, holding their hands through it. And obviously it's not just me anymore. When I started the club, it was just me. We have a team of therapists, we have a team of trainers that write the strategies and stuff like that as well.

That is so amazing! And whenever it started, it was just you. You're like a solopreneur, like ground level, and now you have like an entire team that's like running this organization.

Yeah, it's ace. I love it so much. And, um, and one of the members described it to me as their, their mental health insurance policy, which I loved. I loved, loved, loved. Again, it's got— I mean, we do the daily strategies, but we have monthly webinars, we have monthly meditations, and it's all grown out of the members saying, do you know what, it'd be really nice if we could have something like this. And then members get 24/7 access to a qualified therapist. Oh wow. So not— it's not full-blown therapy, but it is ad hoc, in-the-moment support and advice. So literally I've talked people through panic attacks at 10 o'clock at night on a Messenger chat because they can't pick the phone up because they can't breathe properly, so they can't speak, and they're locked in their bathroom because they don't want the rest of their family to know they're having a panic attack because they've got small children, or whatever the thing is, you know. And then relationship issues at 6 o'clock in the morning when it hits them, you know, or work stress at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. We talk them through it as it's happening to them. Or they can just contact us after the thing and say, okay, so this happened and I did that, and was— and what do you think about that? And I feel about— I feel like this about it now. And again, it's just— you'll know this from coaching— it's just chatting people through.

You have that, you have that space. It's a safe space, right? You know, it's like instead of taking it to maybe your sister or a sibling or a friend that isn't really adept to like hold that, right? They're not even in the right space to hold that like load, you know, like you have a safe space for it. It would be like taking, you know, as business owners, sometimes we deal with problems or, you know, like mindset shifts that we go through. And we can't always take that to our partner, right? If they're not a business owner, we can't really take it to our loved ones because they're like, well, we don't know, just get a job. Right? So So that's why we have coaches and that's why we have these online spaces with people that like understand and get it. So I feel like that's the same thing. You give, you know, your clients and the members of that community that safe space. And sometimes like that's all that we need is a safe space.

Totally, totally. And it's, you know, it's that thing of you don't always want to go to the people, you know, the people that are closest to you have their fairly fixed idea of who and how you are as a person. So you don't always want to take this kind of stuff to your nearest and dearest, do you? You don't always want to have that kind of conversation with that person. So yeah, having that— and for me, that's what coaching and therapy is all about, is being able to, you know, someone who's trained in that modality, in that practice, that knows what they're talking about, that also has some experience, but that you feel safe with that you can trust, that is removed from your normal everyday life, so can absolutely look at whatever's happening objectively and, and help to guide you on the right path for you. Again, it's not a one-size-fits-all, is it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What do you say, like, because I mean, in therapy and in counseling and coaching and things like that, like, we do want so badly to help our clients and to help the members and things. And, and a lot of times we can take that responsibility on and like we can almost like wear it, you know. So what are like things that you do just like in practicality? Like what do you do to kind of take care of yourself and to just like make sure that you're like filling your cup and maybe even like some boundary work or like anything specific that you practice?

Yeah, lots. And as the club grows, the more members we recruit, the more self-care I do. For me, that's a no-brainer. And I learned that the hard way because obviously in this, you know, we're in caring professions, aren't we? You want to help people. I'm a helper. That's who I am at my absolute core. And so you have to have really strong boundaries It's why we grew. It's why the company grew, because I realized that— and it's only happened in the last— the therapy team has only grown in the last 12 months or so, because we've tripled the membership in that 12 months, partly because of the pandemic and lockdown. Lockdown's been quite severe over here in the UK, so it's been quite hard going. And we have, in my humble opinion, a mental health crisis over here now. We did have before the pandemic, the pandemic just made it more blinking obvious, but anyway, don't get me started on that one. But I was, it was taking up a lot of my time and a lot of my energy and a lot of my headspace supporting people that needed support, and that's why the therapy team grew, because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing this to myself. This, this is not happening because I'll burn myself out and then I'm no good to anybody. So, so yeah, so I started recruiting other therapists and, and, and really paid attention to my boundaries, to my self-care. I mean, I start every day by putting my protective bubble around me. I've been doing that since I was a jobbing therapist because again, like I say, we're helpers and you want that other person to feel okay, and you know, sometimes instinctively, you know what they need to do and how to help them, but they're not always ready to do what they need to do. You can only go at their pace, which means you can't take responsibility for them, apart from the fact you can't take responsibility for anyone else, which is another one of my favorite topics. You are only responsible for yourself. Everybody is only responsible for themselves. You cannot be responsible for anybody else's thoughts, feelings, emotions, behaviors. It's impossible. You can't do it. And again, I spent a lot of my childhood believing that I was responsible for things that happened and wanting to be responsible for my mom in particular, because I wanted her to be happy and she was not happy, bless her. And so when I first became a therapist, I really— that's something I really struggled with, was not taking responsibility for my clients, for allowing them to go at their own speed and work out the bits they need to work out in that moment, regardless of what I knew they needed. They had to go at their pace. So yeah, a huge, huge part of what I do is self-care. People always say to me, 'Oh my god, you're so busy all the time,' and I say, 'Well, I kind of am, but actually come and have a look at my diary because I've got 4 one-hour—' Like today, I've had 4 one-hour meetings today you're one of them, right? In between each of those hours, I have at least an hour off.

Yes, so good. So that's—

and I, you know, I take, I take every Friday off. I don't work on a Friday. So, and again, I started doing that because I realized the membership was growing and I needed to look after myself more.

And then you come back better, you know, than the time you are. Working, quote unquote, you're better. You know, I like to say that like create more white space in your calendar. So those 1-hour blanks in between your calls, like that's the white space for you, right? So that's, that's where you can eat and you can journal and you can go for a walk or whatever it is that you want to do. And honestly, like for me, whenever I have white space in my calendar, like that's when I'm the most creative. Like I have the best ideas, like the best downloads whenever I'm not like at my desk actually working, you know. And then it makes me look forward to come back to my desk to work. Totally, totally.

And that, yeah, I mean, that's brilliant. I have had that experience. I was quite frazzled by the end of last week. It was a busy one. And I have Fridays off, and Saturday, Sunday obviously is the weekend. And I fully immerse myself. I have 2 daughters and a husband, so I fully immerse myself in my family as much as I can. And I really, this weekend, because I felt so frazzled on Thursday evening, I properly kicked back, chilled out, did absolutely fuck all, all weekend, right? Literally nothing all weekend. I felt so energized when I came back to my desk this morning. I've had this excited, like enthusiastic energy about me all day today because I've done nothing for 3 days except look after myself. It's huge. And like you say, it's the time when those ideas come. Those ideas just float in, don't they? If you don't give yourself that space, they don't come. You're not allowing them. So good.

So good. So now today you have like fresh energy, fresh eyes on everything. Beautiful Monday. I love that. I love that. I always feel renewed like whenever I take a break from social media, like whether it's work or not, like just like, um, I will literally take social media like Facebook and Instagram and I will drag them into like their own folder on like another page and I'll name it mental health detox, keep out. And then like, and then it's almost like breaking a habit, right? It's like if my thumb doesn't go to the usual place that it goes to, to click on those icons, and then I have to like intentionally go swipe to get to the folder and then already keep out. I'm like, wait a minute, I remember why I'm not going here. Like I need a break. So So the point of saying that is like, I always feel better after I take like 2 days or so. I'm like, oh yeah, like I'm ready to jump back in now, you know. But I think that those small acts of self-care make all the difference, especially whenever we are helpers and we want to help people and make the world better. And like this, this great sense of collective responsibility that we have. We do much better when we take care of ourselves.

We definitely, definitely do. And, you know, if it's a place where— so I ran the webinar for the Happiness Club, was last night, the monthly webinar, and we did it on burnout because the members, quite a lot of the members, are feeling towards that way. Because, as I'm sure you're aware, the last 12 to 18 months has taken its toll on lots of people, hasn't it? And I said to them, you know, I talked to them about my self-care routine and I showed them my diary and showed them the gaps and I said, but look, even if you, you know, I know that I am utterly privileged and totally fortunate because I work for myself. My boss is all right, bless her, you know, she lets me off sometimes. So I'm lucky, but I know that not everybody has that. Not everybody else is that fortunate. Not everybody is able to set their own diary times and have that autonomy over their time. So I said, so, but then it's about finding ways that you can do that, you know, even if it's just for 1 minute after that meeting that you've had. Just take 1 minute and sit and close your eyes and focus on your breathing for just 1 minute, you know. Brilliant if you've got an hour to do it in, awesome, go and stand in the sunshine and do all of that jazz, but if you haven't just do it for 1 minute and just reset yourself. And either side of those busy, busy hours, jam-pack it full of self-care. You know, if you have to be on it from 9 till 6 and you've got no choice and that's just the way it has to be, then whatever you do before 9 and whatever you do after 6 has to just be for you. It has to just be yours, and you have to have that awareness. And build that into the way you live your life, I think.

And to be okay with it, right? Like, give yourself permission to slow down and to do nothing, you know, to find the mindless TV show and to just lay on the couch or bake something or whatever your thing is, like, just for fun or just for pleasure, just for rest.

And yeah, hey, yeah, totally. I, I am absolutely of the opinion that rest is vastly underrated and completely ignored by a lot of people because we are doers. We do, do, do, don't we? We have to do, we have to get things done, we have to achieve, and we have to get on, and we have to do. And, um, if that's fine, like we've talked about being high achievers already, that's fine, be a high achiever, but be a high rester too. I just made that phrase up, but you know, be so good, make yourself rest as much as you achieve, you know, balance it. It's all about balance.

Thank you for that permission slip. I may go take an afternoon nap. I'm just kidding, but that is, that's a good reminder. Thank you for that. This has been so good. I know that so many of the listeners of this podcast are also, they fall on that high achieving point, or they're like at a point of starting their business, or they're getting into the coaching world and they are also helpers. They also have this need to want to help people. I connect with like a lot of teachers. I'm a former teacher myself, and I connect with a lot of teachers, a lot of counselors, people that are just naturally helpers, and they're coming into this kind of side of it, quote unquote, like in the online world. So I love that. I think that this has been so invaluable, just talking about rest and boundaries and self-care and all the good things. All the good things. Cool.

I'm glad. Awesome. Awesome.

Yes. OK, Jo. So if anyone wants to check out the Happiness Club, I think that I'm going to go check it out whenever we get off our call today. It sounds so amazing. How can they do that and how can they connect with you?

Okay, so the, the easiest place to find out about The Happiness Club is our website, which is thehappinessclub.co.uk. It's got information about everything that we do, the club membership itself, but also the work we do, because we work in schools and corporates as well. So yeah, that's the best place. If you want to connect with me on social media, I am about 100 years old, so Facebook—

Oh my God, stop! Facebook.

I've been told by my children that I'm too old for TikTok. I'm not allowed on TikTok.

No, do what you want.

So Facebook is my, is my place, my favorite place. And I'm on there as Jo Happiness Howarth. So feel free to look me up on there. Absolutely.

Thank you. I will link both of those things in the show notes. So if you're listening to the podcast and you want to go check it out, scroll, go to the show page and just scroll down and it will be there. If you're listening and you're like, yes, I want to go check this out. So thank you. Thank you so much, Jo. This has just been a really, really lovely chat. And I know that so many women and so many coaches and helpers and leaders of the world are just going to feel like that sense of permission if they need it. Like, oh, like it is OK for me to rest and it is OK for me to like find my happiness, you know, whatever that means. So thank you for that, Jo. We really enjoyed it. I enjoyed our talk today. Me too.

Thank you very much for having me. Amazing.

All right, goodbye everyone, and we will see you on the next episode.