#26: How to Monetize Your Podcast without 1000s of Downloads

So good when you're building trust with your audience. When you want people to trust you so that you can, you can offer your services or your products to them, a podcast is perfect.

Hey, coach, my name is Lindsay and I'm here to help heart-centered women like you build the money-making coaching business of their dreams. I've been coaching since 2019. And this pod is about so much more than building your business. It's about using your gifts to build a life and business you're 100% obsessed with. I went from working 50+ hours a week as a first grade teacher to building a sustainable business that replaced my job salary and gave me back 30+ hours a week of my time. Tune in to join the ride and learn from other Coaches and experts along the way.

All right.

Welcome everyone back to the Aligned Coach Podcast. This is Lindsay, your host, and I have an awesome guest here today. I'm so excited for our conversation. I have Ann Classen, who is a podcast monetization mentor. She helps podcasters monetize their podcast, and I'm going to actually let her introduce herself because she's probably better at it than me. So here you go, Ann, take the mic.

Thank you so much, Lindsay. So, yeah, I mean, you're right. That's what I do. I'm a podcast monetization mentor and my podcast and my business is called the Podcast Babes. So what we do is basically we help mostly female podcasters monetize their podcast without thousands of downloads, without growing their audience for years before finally making a few dollars. I believe you don't need that, but what you do need is a great podcast and a few tips and tweaks that I can talk more about later, of course. And I'm based in the Netherlands. Sometimes I live my life as a digital nomad, so that means that every few months I change locations. But for now, I've been in the Netherlands for quite a while already, so I'm very excited to leave again in hopefully a few months.

Yes. Oh, I love this already. The Podcast Babes. Like, that is such a juicy title. Like, that just is like enticing. I'm like, I want to be a podcast babe.

You can be, Lindsay.

Very catchy. Very catchy. And do you have your own podcast?

I do. Yeah. I actually have two podcasts. So like I mentioned, I live my life as a digital nomad and my first podcast, which is kind of a passion project, actually. It's called Digital Nomad Stories. And over there, I just interview other digital nomads to share their experiences, their stories, and everything they learned on their journey. And then I also have my more like businessy, professional, whatever, like kind of more serious podcast. And that one is also called The Podcast Babe. So for business stuff, for podcasting stuff, I'm the podcast babe everywhere. Podcast, Instagram, everything.

Yeah, I love that. I have a client that like she travels, like she was like a huge traveler, like especially before, you know, the pandemic and everything. I'm going to like tell her to go check out your Digital Nomad Stories podcast and like see if maybe— I don't know if you're taking interviewees, but maybe I could like send her your way and say like, hey, like go check out this podcast. Like this may be a really awesome opportunity for you. So if you're listening, absolutely.

I mean, definitely please let me know. I like that podcast. I love the connections that I make there, just people who have the same mindset about travel and about lifestyle things, and I just love that. So if you want to connect me with people, please do. And if you're listening and you think, oh my God, that's me, please reach out because I would love to talk to you on the podcast or off the podcast.

Yes, I love that. I love that. She's a confidence coach. And she is like, I am so ready to like just get out and travel again. So I know that this would be so super cool for her. Okay, anyways, that was like totally like a side sidebar sidebar. I like to say that if I didn't have children and wasn't married, and wasn't domesticated, that I would definitely be traveling. I would definitely not be in South Georgia, like I would be elsewhere. But you know, I I'm happy with where I am and we do travel often as a family, but it is harder like with kids and they're both under the age of 5. So it's, it's fun. Yeah. Do you have children?

No, I don't. I do have, I have a partner now. Nowadays I met him on the road in a hostel in Thailand, completely very, very random. Was not looking for anything, but there he was. So yeah. So we do travel together now nowadays. Yeah. Yeah.

That's, So cool. You travel together. Oh, it's so romantic. Okay. All right. And so tell us, how did you become the founder of the podcast, babe? Like, how did this journey start for you? I know, like, this is actually the second podcast I've ever started. A friend and a friend of mine and I started the podcast last year. And we just kind of like struggled a bit because we were like new to the online space. And we were still trying to figure out like what our niche was like what it was that we would really talk about. And so like, it was fun. And I think it was definitely a learning experience. So I know a lot of people like when they start their businesses or they're, they're, you know, they're like super excited about the online journey. They're like, yeah, I want to start a podcast. And then they like start it, but they're not really sure what to do with it. So like, how did this come about for you? Yeah, tell us your story.

Oh my God, it's a long one. I made all the mistakes. Like, I, I do believe that I'm kind of like a born entrepreneur, if you can say that about yourself. But I also definitely didn't get it right in the first try or anything like that. It definitely was a journey. So what happened was in 2018, I graduated, I did all my master's, and I was going to be a fancy lawyer. Decided I didn't want to I actually left university with a burnout. So I was very, very sure that I did not want to start a corporate career. But what is the alternative? I didn't know. So I decided to start traveling. I always have loved to travel. Traveling was always my biggest hobby. So I was like, you know what? I was planning to travel anyways before starting my career. So I'm just going to travel and we'll see. We'll see what happens. I'll probably like find myself or whatever, or at least find purpose or whatever.

Yeah. Like as we millennials do, you know, journey to find ourself as if she's somewhere else. Yes.

Yeah. So that's what I did. I started traveling. I backpacked Asia for 5 months. I went to Australia, did my working holiday there. I had some very random jobs. I worked on a strawberry farm and there between the strawberries I found myself, got the idea that— You found your voice! So there I finally, like, I always had this idea like, oh, later when I'm a grown-up, I want my own business and I want to live this lifestyle of being location independent, of traveling the world while working on my business. And that was always like my, my long-term goal. And over there between all the strawberries, I was like, you know what, I'm just going to do that now. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, but it's— there's only now. Like, really, what am I waiting for? And there were all these people who would say, you're too young, you're too inexperienced, experience, blah, blah, blah. You know, you probably heard it all before as a business owner as well, or as a podcaster even. So the thing was, like, I had all these random jobs and I was like, you know what? I love traveling. I don't want to go home. But this is also not sustainable. I cannot just hop around from strawberry farm to strawberry farm for the rest of my life. At least I could, but that's not what I'm that's not what would make me happy. So I knew that I needed to find something and I just needed to start somewhere to eventually like get this lifestyle that I wanted. So I, well, first I considered teaching English in Vietnam. Also very popular if you want to work abroad. The thing is I'm not a native English speaker.. And it's actually really difficult to find a job in Vietnam when you're not a native speaker. And I mean, I can practice, I can be very good at English, but a native speaker is something I will never be. So I was like, yeah, that's definitely a downside. And I was just planning to try it anyways, but then I saw an online course to become a virtual assistant and I decided to take that course instead. And in this course, there was a module about— it was really broad. There was a module about literally everything you can do online. So there was blogging, social media, and also one of the modules was about podcast management. Okay. And when I saw that and I went through the module, I was like, whoa, this is so awesome. People do this for a living. That is cool. So I actually started as a podcast manager. I just search. I mean, just, it was, it was definitely hard work to get these first few clients. But when I finally found them, then it was, it was, it was really great. So I did that for a few months or a year, actually. I worked as a freelance podcast manager. And that's, that's actually how I started. I didn't even have my own podcast back then. So after working for others for a year, I I started Digital Nomad Stories. I decided to change my business around, pivot into more podcast strategy and just to help podcasters more with all the insight that I gained from working with, with all these different podcasters. I saw what worked, what didn't work. I also have my master's in business strategy, by the way. So it finally kind of came full circle like, oh, this is, This is it. It's all coming together now. So, so then last October, I rebranded, changed my business name to the Podcast Babes. I also started a Podcast Babes podcast. So, yeah, that's, that's what we're doing now. And I also— we still offer podcast management, but I do that with a team now. So it's super exciting to also be working with other ambitious women. So yeah, that's, that's, that's how it all came together.

Oh my God. It's like, I love it. It's so messy and so imperfect, but it's like, it's yours though. Like, that's your journey. Like, thank you so much for just speaking on like the truth of it, on the truth of it was not perfect from the beginning. I did not have it figured out. I had this plan and then I had this online course pop up and I was like, oh, like, let me try this. Oh, like, let me see where it leads me. Like, I think that that is the, that's, that's That's really how entrepreneurship happens. Something that I was actually just like thinking, like this theme that's been in my head this week is about, is how we are like conditioned or how we're almost like brainwashed to think that like if business feels hard to us, that like we're not doing it right, like we're missing something. Or if we didn't figure it out the first time, then like we should, then this isn't the right path for us, right? It's not aligned. And like, that's just not true, right? It was so messy for myself in the beginning. I had no idea what I was doing, you know, but it was from messy action, imperfect action taking, trying something, tweaking it, trying it again, tweaking it again, and just like a constant process. So thank you for sharing that, just like very genuine, um, your very genuine journey about, hey, like it was a process and I'm sure it still is a process, right? Like figuring out how to work with a team and how to scale while also delivering really good freaking results and just balancing it all, right?

Absolutely. It's still, it's definitely an ongoing process. And I also think that, so what I thought when I started my business, I was like, oh, but I should be able to do this because people on the internet are doing it. But why do we think that we have all these skills immediately? I mean, you also, like, I wanted to be a lawyer.. So I went to law school where they teach you how to be a lawyer. That makes total sense. But then for entrepreneurship, we just expect to have all these skills. But like most of the time we don't. I mean, I didn't at least, so I had to get these skills and it takes time and it takes messy action and it wasn't always fun. It was really, really hard and it still sometimes is really, really hard, but it's also what I want to do. So, um, I think it's worth it.

It is 100% worth it. 100%. Oh my God, so good. Okay, so could you give us like, I like for our listeners to just get like some really good like takeaways, like some like tangible points that like maybe they could go and apply like in their podcasting or in their business. So like if someone, someone who's listening, they're maybe thinking of starting a podcast, or maybe they've already started one. Actually, I think that a lot of our listeners have already like started one but really haven't— they don't really know what to do with it. They're like, well, should I record once a week? What do I talk about? How do I get it out there? What do I do with it? How do I make money from it? Right? Like, that's what I like. I'm a business coach. And like, I want you to make money from the actions that you take. So how can— what would you say to someone that's trying to get their podcast off the ground? And they're like, okay, how can I make this like worth the time that I'm putting into it?

Yeah, really good question. I could talk days about this, but I'll try to keep it short. So what I see happen to many, many podcasters when they start, and this 100% happened to me, so don't feel any shame when this is you, but when you start a podcast, it's all exciting and new and, oh my God, I'm gonna be a podcaster, yay! That was absolutely me. And then after, I think it was like 6 or 7 episodes, I was like really busy and I didn't have time to record a new episode, so I was like, oh, I'll just skip a week. And then 3 months later I was like, oops, I had a podcast, I forgot. Or like, I didn't have time, like business got busy, busy, or life happened. And that happens to many, many podcasters, and I think it's really, really natural. But be aware that this is something that can happen, like this can happen. So if you know that beforehand, that also means that you can do things to make sure that it doesn't happen to you. And that is what I try to do now. And the way that how I solve this, this potential problem is I work well in advance and I love batch recording. So that means that in one day or maybe one week, you will create multiple episodes. Even if you have weekly episodes, you can take one day every month to create all of the episodes for the whole month, because that way you never have that pressure like, I need to record right now or I won't have an episode out. So I think number one tip for new podcasters is make sure that you get that backlog of episodes. So maybe even postpone your launch a little bit. Make sure that you have a few episodes ready to go. If something happens, if you, if you're super busy, you don't have to think about your podcast every single week and keep showing up. I mean, you have to show up to promote it anyways, but you don't have to show up and record an episode. Just make it as easy as possible for yourself. I think that is my number one tip.

Yep. That's beautiful. That I'm honestly like, I'm just getting to a point where I'm like few weeks like in advance, right? And it's taken— I launched this podcast in January. It's taken 6 months to like get the hang of things and like have a system and like have a systems of procedures to follow and like know what has to be done each week. And, and yeah, and that, that is so true. I think like finding your consistent, like, if you know that you can't— I'm not the expert here, but in my own experience, if you know that you can't consistently put out 2 episodes a week, then like, don't sign yourself up for that, right? Like, be okay with finding your consistent, whether it's once a week or once every 2 weeks or once every 3 weeks. And then like you said, like batch recording, or for me, like I mostly do interviews. It's— I love doing interviews. I love these talks. I get to meet the most phenomenal people doing interviews this way. So like I have interviews scheduled all the way through November of this year. So I know that like my podcast is good until then. And it just takes so much stress off of me having all of those scheduled out in advance. So that's such a great tip. Such a great tip.

And yeah, exactly. And it makes it so much more fun because you can actually enjoy it if you don't feel that pressure, like, oh my God, I need to show up now and record because it's all there. You can just enjoy, enjoy the process and promote it and talk to the people that are listening or find ways to monetize, for example.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's like today, I was checking my calendar this morning. I'm like, oh, like, what am I doing today? And I was like, oh, I have a podcast interview today. So knowing that like, I don't have to like stress out about what am I going to talk about on my podcast episode this week? Like, no, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go talk to Anne. And like, we're just gonna have a conversation. And that works for my personality type. I think that it does depend on like your personality. And are you into human design?

Oh, I am. Yeah, I totally went down that rabbit hole.

Oh yes. Okay. So I'm like, I've known my human design for like a year, like a year and a half, but I'm like starting to learn more about it right now. And my type, I really thrive on like change. I thrive on like spontaneity, on like versatility. So I find like my podcast is like like you said, a passion project. For me, like my podcast is my passion project. Like I get to just like show up and have conversations with like random people that I wouldn't usually talk to, right? So like that is fun for me. So I think, but I think on the flip side for someone whose personality doesn't really thrive on like unplanned, just like off the, on a whim conversations, like they would probably do it in another way, like where they're batching their content or like teaching something. Um, so that, that is, that is really good. I'm just curious, what is your human design?

I'm a projector.

I knew it! Oh, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I'm so like, I'm a manifesting generator and I can like almost like sniff out projectors. I'm like, you got that projector energy.

I am, yeah. So I mean, um, for people who don't know what, what that means, when you're a projector, that means that you have very limited energy. So I am really like outgoing and I love talking to people, but I cannot do that all day. Last week I forgot about this or I don't know what happened. And I had 7 calls in one day and I went to bed at like 8:00 PM. I was done. Yeah. So that, I mean, I totally agree that that is very, very interesting to look at, especially as a podcaster, because for me that means that I batch record my episodes well in advance so that I I don't have to spend my energy recording new episodes. So yeah, totally agree.

Oh, interesting. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I was going to say that. I was going to say like, oh yeah, for a projector, batching their content may work better. And then I was like, let me— so yeah, that was so— I'm just like wowing myself with all of this knowledge. But can you guess what my type is? I bet you know.

Yeah, you just said manifesting generator, right?

I did just say it.

Sorry.

You spoiled it. I did.

Oh my God.

I swear I'm not drinking.

What's in that bottle? You said it was water, but is it?

I swear I did have a Red Bull this morning, but that's the only caffeine I've had today is a Red Bull. So anyways, okay, Anne. So tell us, like, whenever you say that you can, like, you help podcasters monetize, like, without the ads, like, yes, ads and sponsorships are like one way, but what do you mean by like other ways?

Oh, there are so many ways to monetize a podcast. Really good question. So like you said, most podcasters, when they think about podcast monetization, they think about where can I find a sponsor? Because sponsors pay me money and I just keep doing what I'm doing. I add the snippet and that's it, right? And that is definitely one way to do it. Nothing wrong with it, but you need quite a few listeners for that usually to make that actually profitable. Another way to do it, and I think especially when you have your own online business or your own business in general, or if you're a coach especially, I think that's perfect if you have a podcast and you're a coach, because what you can do is sell your own products and programs. Sounds easy, but just really thinking this through and thinking about how you can sell that to your audience on your podcast is really, really powerful. And it's such a huge opportunity because a podcast gives you— people listen to you, literally. They literally listen to your voice and everything that you have to say for as long as your episode is. And not just when you have solo episodes, but also if you have interviews, people get to know you. They hear your voice, they hear your personality a little bit. And that is that is so good when you're building trust with your audience. When you want people to trust you so that you can offer your services or your products to them, a podcast is perfect. And I always try to find a way when I help my clients monetize a podcast to make it a win-win. Like, I don't want to make your podcast super, super salesy. I think that doesn't work. And also, no one's going to listen to your podcast anymore. We don't want that.

We want to—

we really want to make it a win-win because I think when you do this strategically in a smart way and you offer something that your audience actually wants, it is a win-win because you're serving your audience even more, not just with the free content that you put out, but also if people want to take that next step and work with you, they can because you're letting them know how to. How to actually take that step. So that is, that is one, that is a very long answer to your question. That is number one, how you get like way number one, strategy number one, how to monetize your podcast. But you can also think about creating a membership for your listeners where they can pay a monthly fee and then get more content or they get a say in your topics or a live Q&A. I don't know. You can, you can come up with the most creative ways to make this interesting to your audience. And then you can also use affiliate links. Affiliate links are these links where when someone buys the product or, or software, for example, you got a commission. I also use this in my show notes. You don't even have to talk about a product. For me, I just pop it in my show notes. It's always there. And it's my favorite podcast My Favorite Podcasting Software or My Favorite Podcasting Tools, I believe. And I just have a list of like 5 tools that I use for podcasting. And when someone gets a subscription to one of these tools, then I get a commission. It's really, really easy to set up. And it's also, again, it's a win-win for my audience. They don't pay more for the software at all. It's the same price for them. And then they know that this is actually my favorite software. So I do think that it's important to be ethical about this. Like, you don't want to promote a software or a product that you don't actually use or that you don't actually like, because people are spending their money because you said that, that this is a good product. So I do think that it's very important to be ethical about this. But if you are, and this is actually your favorite tool for this, specific thing, then that's awesome. I mean, your audience likes that, right? I mean, if I would listen to a podcast and I would be, oh, that's what they use for email management or something. I mean, I don't know, or social media scheduling. I want that.

Okay, cool. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true. All these are such good tips, especially the one like building like the, the relationship with your audience, like the know, love, and trust factor, like through a podcast, right? We a lot of times we get so caught up on social media, we get so caught up on Instagram or Facebook or like LinkedIn. And we have to remember that like those, in my opinion, they can often lead to us being on a chase for like instant gratification, right? They can lead to us, how many likes did I get? How many comments or shares? Like, what's my follower count? Oh my god, I lost a follower, right? So those are like very— one, like we don't own those platforms. And they can be taken away any minute. I had my Instagram disabled for almost 2 months for like over 6 weeks. It was a nightmare. Yeah, yeah. But it also like put the— it gave me a kick in my butt to like get this podcast like scheduled out. So that's when I scheduled my podcast out. And it really gave me the motivation to get this done. But, but yes, so like social media can often— I like it's, it's like a short term or not a short term, but kind of like the short game. Like it's, it's you can put a post out right now, you know that people are going to see it right now. You can promote your product right now, right? Whereas like a podcast or even like your email list, or even like a private Facebook group, although that's still on social media, but like a podcast especially is like a long game strategy, right? Like that's going to be there to nurture your audience, you know, for the long game, right? So you may have listeners, I don't know about you, but whenever I find a new podcast that like I'm obsessed with, I will go back and like binge listen like the last like 25 episodes, right? And now I've basically spent like 25 hours with that person, like listening to their voice, you know, consuming their content, really getting to know them. So a podcast is such a beautiful way, in my short experience of like running one, of building that relationship with your audience and having like those offers, like you said, in the show notes or having like those affiliate links of the products that you're using, always there. And as people are getting to know you, like you're also able to serve them and say, hey, this is how you can learn more from me, right? Hey, this is how you can join my free challenge or my program, or here's the microphone that I used or whatever. And it is, it's a win-win. It's selling through service. Yeah.

So good. Absolutely. Yeah. And I totally agree with what you said about social media and that many people, including me, got caught up in like followers, likes. Oh my God, I only got I never got 100 likes, so don't worry. But like, these are just, these are not important at all. Doesn't say anything about you or your business. And what many podcasters like in podcasting, we also have these vanity numbers, right? And that's download numbers, because probably the number one question that I get after where do I find sponsorships, but then, OK, number two question that I get is how do I grow my audience? Where can I find more downloads? Downloads don't really matter. I mean, depending on what you want to do, if you really want to have sponsorships, then okay, it might, it might be important. But if not, it's not just a number. It's actual people listening to your podcast, to your voice. It's also not like someone who just scrolls through Instagram and just double taps on this photo that they see for 1 second. People actually listen to your voice for a good amount of time, the whole episode usually. So download numbers don't say much. If you have 10 downloads for an episode, 5 of those people can become a client. So it doesn't say anything. I always try to get my clients to make that mindset shift of not chasing after more and more downloads, but focusing on the people who are already there and serving them the best way you can, selling your products to them so that you can serve them even better. And then the new, the new people will come.

So good. It's the same. I mean, honestly, that, that principle is the same with social media as well. It's like, it's not about how many followers, oh, do you have 10K followers or like even 1,000? Like it's about serving the community that's already there, right? Oh, so good. So juicy. And yeah, and it's like, it's so easy to scroll past like a picture and just like, oh, like, let me just spend 3, like 0.3 seconds on it to like this post, and then keep going. But what about whenever somebody listens to your voice for 20 minutes, for 45 minutes? Like, why is that? Like, we're not entitled to their time. Like, they chose to spend that time listening to us. That's a big Freaking deal. Yeah, so that, that's so good. Such good quality advice. Thank you for that, Anne. So good. Anything else that you want to add to anyone, or for anyone that is either thinking of starting a pod, or they've already started one? Like, would you give them any other tip or piece of wisdom?

Well, my only piece of wisdom that we haven't— I mean, we talked about this a little bit. So the thing that really like changed the game for me is what we already talked about is to find a way to enjoy the process. So when I started, I definitely was chasing more and more downloads and, oh, I need more listeners and grow my audience and I'm putting in all this time and effort. So everyone needs to hear this. But, and like, still, of course, I want to expand my reach and to share my, my content with as many people as possible. But it's not the most important thing anymore because I found a way to enjoy the process now. And that is through the connections that I'm making with my guests, with listeners. If people like just an hour ago, I was on Clubhouse and someone said, oh yeah, and I learned from Anne, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, that just fills me with, with love and pride. And that's why I have that podcast, so that people actually walk away learning something new or getting advice or a mindset shift or just like something that they just take something away from that. And I think when you find a way to enjoy that process, it makes everything more fun in that whole podcasting game. And that if it's more fun, you can also be more consistent. And that's when you see the real growth in your audience. So it's kind of counterintuitive, intuitive, right? Like if you don't focus on growing your audience, you will be more consistent and grow your audience. Yeah, that's my experience.

It's so true. I like rarely even look at the downloads of my podcast. My assistant Irene is amazing and she helps me produce the podcast. And then I really, I like maybe look at my downloads like once or twice a month. But every time I do, it just like astounds me because I'm like, oh, I've got like, it's like like gradually, but like, you know, it's going upwards. And like, that is like the coolest thing because I really haven't put much into like marketing it or like expanding my reach. But I think it's exactly what you said, being consistent, delivering quality episodes that I actually enjoy doing. And it just, it is counterintuitive. So like, the more I enjoy it, the better it gets, therefore the more people that come to it. So yeah, so true. So good.

So and so if Anyone wants to connect with you, how can they do so? Yeah. So like, like I already said at the start, I'm the Podcast Babes everywhere. So I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest. I'm always the Podcast Babes. You can also go to thepodcastbabes.com and that's where you can find everything, like everything I do. But also my podcast lives there. And yeah, I would love to hear from you. Send me a DM on Instagram. I think on Instagram I hang out the most when I'm not recording podcasts. I would love to hear from you when you— if you like this episode.

Yeah, so good. Oh my gosh, thank you, Anne. Thank you so much. I'm definitely going to link all of your links— I'm going to link all of your links below this episode so that everyone can come and connect with you and say hi and reach out to you and just get all the goods and soak all of that up. So thank you so much for coming on, Anne. This was so good. I think it was also like a little confirming to me that like, hey Lindsay, like it's okay that like you're not putting like a ton of like effort into marketing and like you're not all wrapped up in the analytics and like you're just having fun with it. It's like, thank you for that confirmation as well.

Yeah. I mean, you're so welcome, Lindsay, and you're doing such a good job. So, and thank you so much for having me. It was such a blast to be here. Yay.

Thank you, Anne. All right, everyone. We will see you in the next episode of the Aligned Coach Podcast.

Bye.