174: Getting Paper Clutter Under Control with Lisa Woodruff

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That's a free in-person estimate today. 1800gotjunk.com or 1-800-468-5865. We all want to feel peace in our lives, peace in our choices, our beliefs, our relationships, and our environment. I've learned that this desired contentment is often found through holding onto less. When we pare down what we own, what we consume, and what we value, we're left with what's intentional, a personalized curation of what is important and true and useful to us. I'm Shannon Laco, and you're listening to Paring Down, a podcast aimed at helping you declutter not only your home, but any area of your life that's overwhelming. Here we're having interesting and honest conversations about the physical and mental clutter that drowns out what truly matters to each of us. And together we'll learn how to pare it all down, not for the sake of perfection nor becoming rigid, rather so we can move through life with less overwhelm and more joy, wisdom, and peace. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Paring Down. This episode has been a long time coming. I feel like I've been saying that a lot recently, but that's good news. That means that I'm finally getting some episodes episodes out that I feel like you guys really, really want, really, really need. And this one is all about paper because paper clutters up our homes so easily. It feels really overwhelming. What do we do with it all? When do we need to get rid of it? How do we keep it? How do we file it? All of the things, right? And so, uh, today we have on Lisa Woodruff, who wrote an entire book called The Paper Solution. She knows all about how to keep your paper organized, what to do with it, and that kind of thing. So I'm excited for you to hear from her. Let me tell you a little bit more about her. Lisa Woodruff productivity specialist, home organization expert, and founder and CEO of Organize 365. Lisa teaches and motivates women to organize their home and paper with functional systems that work. She has helped thousands of women reclaim their homes and finally get organized with her practical tips, encouragement, and humor through her blog and podcast, Organize 365. The podcast has over 25 million downloads. She's been at it for 11 and a half years, and that is where she shares strategies for reducing the overwhelm, clearing the mental clutter, and living a productive and organized life. She has authored several Amazon bestselling books and is a sought-after trainer and speaker. You'll hear us touch on this, but she is in her final days of pursuing a PhD in applied psychology, which, you know, I am just so obsessed with. I'm like, yes, that's what I want to do. And then her business, Organized 365, has invested in cutting-edge research into household management and organization to better understand and define the challenges for contemporary women. So she comes at this from all angles. She's so practical. Lots of practical tips for you today when it comes to your paper clutter. So let's dive in with Lisa Woodruff. Lisa, I know you and I have already shared that we're so excited to connect, but thank you for being here.

Yeah, I'm super excited for this conversation and to get to know you better.

Me too. And I just told you that as of today, as this releases, it is my birthday. I'm 38 years old, so it's a big day in the Lako household. Happy birthday!

Oh, thank you.

Thank you so much. much, but it is a good birthday present to have you on. And I already gave a little introduction about who you are, all of the amazing, impressive things you've done and are doing, but I love to give my guests an opportunity to introduce themselves. So would you tell the people a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Yeah, so I have always lived in the state of Ohio, and I have always been inquisitive and obsessed about how we manage and run our households. Like, as the oldest grandchild On both sides. I almost was like an extra bonus child in my dad's family because he's the oldest of 6. So I got to really see how my grandparents' households ran. Obviously my household. Then I babysat in my teen years. I got to see how those households ran. When I became a teacher in my 20s, I taught preschool and we did home visits. So I went to every single student's house and saw how they lived. And then I was a stay-at-home mom for a decade. And on all of our playdates, My friends would let me see all parts of their house because I would organize it while we had playdates. And then when I started my company at the age of 40, I started doing in-home organizing for 6 years and organized over 100 houses in Cincinnati. So I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of houses. And the more people I know and the more households I see, the more I realize there are a whole bunch of things that make us similar and a whole bunch of things that are unique to different ages, stages, generations, ethnicities, etc. And it's like a never-ending jigsaw puzzle.

I love it.

Yes.

Oh my gosh, it is. And it's so satisfying every time you figure out the new puzzle. Like, I think that's the greatest. Well, and all of your experience really shows. And I know that one of my favorite things about you is that you really care about kind of the science behind organization. You're obviously a very intelligent person, and it's really fun to see other women who embrace the fact that we can be incredibly intelligent, we can approach things with systems, and it can apply to our house. Like, those things don't have to be separate. We don't have to think, oh, we're not using our mind and our brain if we're staying at home and we're focusing on the home. Like, no, those 2 things can absolutely go together, and I just appreciate that you bring that perspective.

Yeah, well, thanks. I never thought I was smart because I always had this floating C, uh, which was later diagnosed as dyslexia and more recently ADHD, whatever. But I was always good at doing whatever puzzle I was in. And, you know, as a stay-at-home mom, I just loved being really productive as a stay-at-home mom. And then as a business owner starting Organized 365, helping other people get their houses organized and the challenge of different houses and different spaces was really fun. And being able to take a talent that I had and make money and bring that back into our household as an entrepreneur was great. But now moving into academia, You know, there is so much need for everyone running households to have basic operational systems. Like, it boggles my mind actually that we could buy so many containers and we can watch these decluttering TV shows, but we don't have any basic operating principles in the household like you would in business or in school. So both as a business owner and a former school teacher, I'm like, where are the school supplies for running our household? Other than the decluttering, what are the foundational principles that everybody knows are going to really help a household? And they just don't— they exist, but they're kind of hidden. You have to really search for them.

Right. Absolutely. It's like the classic thing. Why don't they teach us taxes in high school? Like, that would actually help our lives. Why don't they also teach us how to run a house? Like, these are things— I mean, again, I don't blame the school system or teachers. That's not what I mean. But the idea is that, like, these are things that would be really helpful to know and to learn. And so that's why what you do offers really practical solutions, which is what we're going to get into today when it comes to paper, because paper is something I know my listeners have asked me to do more about because it can feel so overwhelming. You also have a brand new book out today called Escaping Quicksand. I'm so happy for you. I was just telling you, reading it, it was like this breath of fresh air. You are such a smart and funny and compelling writer in and of itself. Oh, thank you. And I just admire that. So We'll talk about that a little at the end. But in 2020, you also published The Paper Solution, all about paper. So you are the woman for this conversation. So let's get into that a little bit. Why do you think that paper is one of the hardest categories for people to declutter compared to things like clothes or kitchen items?

Yeah, so paper is so detail-oriented. Like, I am not a detail person. So every single piece of paper, it's like, Oh, what is this paper for? Why do I have it? What am I going to use it for if I don't need it now? How long do I need to keep it? How am I going to remember to do whatever I'm supposed to do with this paper? Where am I going to put it so I can remember where it is later? Like, it's just so exhausting for everyone. And so when I was doing in-home professional organizing, I started to realize that this was a big problem because I was organizing people's houses and I was making these awesome, beautiful looking file cabinets. But the homeowners couldn't maintain them because they didn't know the system that I created, which was great for me because then I got to come back and refile their papers a couple of times a year and they paid me. But that's not really, you know, as I moved out of in-home organizing into podcasting and creating courses, I'm like, no, all of this needs to be DIY or at least do it with me. Like, it has to be like, this is a system that works in every single home. Yes, it's going to take time, but once you do, it'll be great. And the other problem with file cabinets was people that live in California or coastal areas that have hurricanes, they needed to evacuate for fires and hurricanes, and they would take their Sunday basket, but they couldn't take their file cabinet with them. And I was like, well, that's a terrible solution. I'm creating their most important paperwork in a system that is not portable. Like, that's not going to work either. So I really started to think about why was I able to organize paper so easily? Because I was at one point, we were organizing paper at my house with a team of people and going into people's homes. Like, we were organizing so many people's paperwork. Why was I able to do it and other people weren't? And it's something that generally professional organizers aren't great at. And I realized it was because I created categories of paper. Like I bucketed your paper categories into 5 or 6 categories. And then every single— it's like sorting edge pieces and colored pieces in a puzzle. Once they're in the bucket, then you could organize what was in the bucket. So I realized we really only have 6 buckets of paper. And once you know what bucket of paper you're in, I either put that in a box if it's active or in a binder if it's reference so that it is portable and you can remember where it is.

Oh, well, I have so many questions about the nitty-gritty of all of that, which we will absolutely do. But I want to stay really fast. You answered so beautifully why it's so hard, because it's true. Every single paper feels like a major decision, and you have to digest what's on the paper, and there's a lot of thought that goes into it. So what's the first mindset shift someone needs to have in order to go successfully, you know, tackle their paper? What shift has to happen?

Yeah. So I listened to one of your podcasts about sorting mail because I was like, oh, I wonder what she's already sharing.

Yes.

So I want to know what your audience already knows. And you did such a great job of explaining that, like, okay, this is recycling and this is keep. And then we have to do actions on the actionable paper. And that is step 1 in tackling your paper. You have to understand, is it trash or is it keep? Okay. Is it trash or is it keep? And you did a great job in that podcast episode. So now everybody has what's keep. Here's the problem. You're like a productive person. You're very organized. And so you're like, I know what to do with that paper. And everybody else is like, and now what? I have my keep pile, Shannon, but now what? So now with your keep pile, there are 2 different kinds of papers. It's constant sorting. So the next thing is, is this an actionable paper that you need to do something with, or is this a reference paper that you're keeping in case the IRS comes and wants substantiation on your tax return? Like, there are a couple of things that are— we keep the paper, we keep the passport, we keep the birth certificate, we keep, you know, our tax return, we keep— but we don't need to, like, have it on our kitchen counter. So we would put that in a file cabinet. I would put it in a binder. We'll talk about that in a minute. But our actionable paper, this is what you guys are going to laugh because every single person does this. So it's actionable, it needs action, which means we can't possibly file that. So we're going to put it on the kitchen counter until we can do it. Here's the problem. There are things that you don't have to take action on for 6 months, a year, 2 years. You don't have any place to put that other than your kitchen counter, because if it goes in the file cabinet, then you won't take action because you don't know what to do with it. That is where the Sunday basket came in, because the kitchen counter pile of paper is not going to go away because your projects and your actionable work is not going to go away, and it's just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. So we put that in a Sunday basket and then we categorize it. And some things need to be done every week, like review your— what you're going to buy at the grocery store and your bills. pay and all that. And some things are literally sitting in there until you do taxes 9 months from now. But you have to keep that charitable contribution thing because it was $200. So you're going to write it off on your taxes. So where do you put that, right? You need a system, and mine's a kitchen countertop system that looks pretty, but really it's just a giant pile.

We all need giant piles. Okay, so what I'm hearing there is the mindset shift is really a practical one of saying I just need to, instead of seeing it all as these like little individual things I have to keep track of, that we need to kind of broaden our mindset and think, okay, I just need somewhere to put it for now and have a plan. We just need to know we have a plan. I think that's probably key. Most people look at all their paper and they just think, I can't possibly deal with this because I don't have a plan. So the mindset shift is really to form a plan.

Yes. And then on Sunday you review everything that's in there and it's fun. I was a kindergarten teacher. It's color-coded. I've got, I mean, I am like an office supply addict. Like the products I sell are the best office supplies you're ever going to see. You're going to love them. So the basket is fun and the slash pockets are fun. And then you go through and you put those in the slash pockets. So you're going to have one that just says taxes. So anytime anything related to taxes all year long comes, it goes into that slash pocket. You know it's there. You can get it if you need it, but you don't need it until like March of next year. And then you might have slash pockets for all the other projects you're doing. So like for you, you're PCSing, you're moving, so you'll have Slash pockets related to that or anything else you have going on, and then yes, you have to plan. So it's called a Sunday basket because on Sunday I review everything that's in there, and for the most part, 80%, 90% of it, I don't do anything except look at it. I'm like, "Yep, don't need to do that. Don't need to do that." But the things I do need to do, I take the time to do right then or plan to get them done that week.

Okay, so for people who might not be familiar, can you share more about this? this Sunday Basket. What does it look like? And you were mentioning how there's kind of sub-baskets within or around. Can you kind of give us a visual of what that means?

Yes, it's actually a box because it's hard to ship a basket. So it's a box. It's called the Sunday Basket because my original one was a glorious handmade Longaberger basket from Ohio, but it's a box now, but it says Sunday Basket on it. And then it has these these plastic binder inserts that have tabs on them. So they look like files, but they're not files. They're sealed on 2 sides and half of the 3rd side. So you could put little tickets in there or index cards in there, and they're not going to fall out of your slash pocket. And each slash pocket is a project or a hat that you wear. So like, I have one that's just called bills. I have one that's called errands. I have one things to order, one things to put on my calendar. So as I go throughout my day, I write down notes to myself, make a schedule, a haircut appointment, make sure that you buy something for the science fair or whatever. And then if they can wait till Sunday, I just drop those in the Sunday basket. Then on Sunday, I get out all the slash pockets and all the random notes I've given to myself. I put the notes in the right slash pockets where they would go, and then I actually do any activities I need to do or schedule any projects that need to be done. And then everything just sits there again until next week.

Okay. Tell me about the Slash pockets. Why do you call them that? Is that the like official name of the product or did you come up with that?

So, I mean, you've seen these before. They're like when you open up a binder and you put in a pocket, a plastic pocket that has a tab on it, like a file tab. Avery makes them. Walmart makes them. Mine are made in the same factories those are made. The difference is I make them all one color. So you know how you go there and they're like all rainbow colors?

Yeah.

No, mine are all one color because we as the Home CEO have 4 main roles that we have, and then we have our weekly tasks. So our weekly tasks are in a regular rainbow set you would find at a regular store: red, orange, yellow, green, blue. So you do your to-dos are red, orange is your calendaring, yellow are your errands, green is your bill pay, and blue is what you're waiting for, needs to be filed or scanned. Then these other slash pockets better define, operationally define The roles that we have as a CEO, as a business owner, or a school teacher in our household, so that we can remember and prioritize our roles. And there are four colors: blue is the color of your family. So each of my family members has a slash pocket. So there's one for each of my grandchildren, and one for each of my children and my husband. So as I see a great gift idea, or something I want to register the kids for for class, or just information from the school just came back, it goes in their slash pocket. So that's people. Then we have purple, which is your house. So anything related to maintenance, remodeling, selling, you've got a lot of that going on right now as you're moving out of one house and into the next house. Those are all purple projects. That's also where people put their Organized 365 courses and things like that. Then there's green because we're the CFOs of our household. So like I said, now you're going to have a tax folder, you're going to have a tax/pocket, you're probably going to have one for medical bills that need to be reconciled and then on and on, whatever your financial responsibilities are. And then the last color is pink, which is so funny. When I manufactured this and I got the pink slash pockets, I was like, yes, these are for my goals. And then I didn't know how to label them because I didn't realize I didn't have any.

Oh no.

Because I was so busy taking care of the family all the time. But now I have, you know, like I have the gym that I belong to. My PhD was a pink slash pocket. And so like things that you want to do for yourself, they're ongoing projects.

And all of these in their different colors, they all exist in this one Sunday basket.

Yep. This one box that's like, you know, the second one.

Very cool. And so this is for things that need action. These are not your long-term storage things. Correct.

Okay.

That's so helpful. Now what comes to my mind is then if we do have this running actionable bin, How do we stop ourselves from keeping things that maybe we don't even need to keep, but we're like, oh, I can just put that in a slash pocket, versus like, you can take that off your plate immediately, or you don't even need to keep that, but it would be tempting to keep everything since you have somewhere to put it? How do you battle that? Hey guys, it's time for your ad break. Each week I like to say a huge thank you for your graciousness that these are part of the podcast. Here we go. Did you know that 3 out of 4 US homes have toxic chemicals in their tap water? Yikes. You guys know I don't believe in fearmongering. I'm not here for that. However, I do think that it's important to take a holistic look at our entire lives and make sure that we are operating in a way that's going to keep us healthy. And something that is obviously important to keep humans alive is our water. 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There's no E at the end of Tru. aquatru, no E, dot com with promo code pairing. We just moved into our new house and there's this really fun little secret room that my daughter has claimed. And we were like, yes, we will decorate it as your special secret room. So one of the things that is a secret room non-negotiable is twinkle lights. And that is where Wayfair came in for our house recently. I found the cutest twinkle lights. They have all of the options. And the reason I think this is really important is because I think a lot of times the clutter in our lives comes in because we get things that we don't actually need, we don't actually want, doesn't really fit our space. And so then we try something different and before we know it, we just have too much stuff in the house. But a lot of that can be mitigated if we just get the right thing to begin with. 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So I love talking to you about this because it's just like decluttering. Because when you go through and you declutter the first time, you're like, oh, I don't need these things, but I'm not sure, so I'm going to hold on to these things. The next time you come through, you're like, why did I hold on these. Same thing applies to your paper. So at first you're gonna keep everything because you don't know where you would find it or you might need it again. And then after you've been doing the Sunday basket a couple of months, you're like, wait, why, why do I have this? Like, I'm not gonna do anything. I'm not gonna do this project. I don't need this. Or actually, this should probably be reference. I do planning days 3 times a year with my audience. And so we plan the next 4 months. And every time we do planning day, I move about 20% out of my Sunday basket into binders because the project got finished. So the project got finished during that 4 months, but there are parts of it that I need to keep, like the new warranty, the new manual, the new whatever. And also in the Sunday basket, like some projects will stay in there a long time. Like as soon as you move to Finland, you're going to need to make a slash pocket that is for the next move. And you're just going to immediately start putting things in there. Like, okay, I just moved in and they said I have to do all these things when I move out, make a nice list, put it in there. You don't have to think about it again until you move the next time. But where else are you gonna put that? Because you think you're gonna remember, but you're not, right?

Of course not. No, this is great.

You're not gonna remember.

Never, never do. Okay, so when you go through it on Sundays, how long does it usually take you?

I know this is the not happy part. So it takes 90 minutes to 2 hours every single Sunday. Okay, I know, I saw your face. So for those of you listening, she was like, I don't want to do Okay. She said, wow, but that's what she meant. She meant, I don't want to do it. So it's true.

I love you for that.

Okay. You're podcaster number 6. We're going to see if you get this right. I'm on my way home, pulling into the driveway. I need to change the laundry. I need to grab something to eat. I need to put on my Pilates clothes and get back in the car. Okay. Stop. Get the mail. I'm on my way into the house. Did you hear this rule, Shannon, growing up that you should touch your paper only once?

Yeah, but I hate that rule.

Okay. I hate that rule too. And also, did you hear this rule that you should do things in 5 minutes? If it takes 5 minutes or less, you should do it right now.

Yes. Also hate that rule. I've talked to you about that.

Also hate that rule. Okay. But we're going to show you why, you guys, you really should listen to us and hate these rules. But this is in our mind. It's every single time I pick up the mail, should touch paper only once. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's bad programming. Bad programming. Okay, so I'm on my way into the house and I succumb to my bad programming. I'm like, oh, I could just do it real quick. So I flip through. I'm like, okay, this is recycling. Recycle it on the way into the house. Take the rest of the mail, put it down on the kitchen counter, grab what I need to eat, put my Pilates gear on. Get back in the car. What did I forget to do?

What did you forget to do? Oh geez! You had to. You told me all the things I had to do.

Podcasters have not been able to remember what I forgot to do.

That's seven. Oh wait, you had to change into your Pilates gear. You had to switch out the laundry.

Yes. Yes, good girl.

Is that right?

Forgot to do yes, but I forgot to do it.

Mm-hmm.

You know why? Because I didn't touch my paper more than once.

I did did did did.

We only have a limited amount of cognitive capacity. It's not like you're like, la la la! I don't have three kids moving to Finland, running a business. Da da da da. I have. I mean, the mail could be my to do is I can respond to text messages. I can listen to email. No, we have a plan for our lives. We are running our lives on a plan, and every single time you stop doing what you were doing on your plan to respond to any kind of external stimulus. The mail, a text message, whatever, that is not urgent or important, you are saying yes to I don't even know what and no to yourself. So yes, on Sunday this takes 90 minutes to 2 hours because you're gonna grab the mail, throw it in the Sunday basket, change your laundry, get the food, get back in the car with your Pilates gear on. And like, you're not going to come home after Pilates and go, dang it, I'm supposed to be moving that into the dryer now, and now I've got to stay up late because I gotta move that because that's for tomorrow. like your whole plan has been derailed because, yay you, you didn't touch the recycling twice.

Yeah. So the idea is to stay focused on what matters in that moment and not let paper distract you, which it can be, or anything.

Yeah, because it could have been like you got a text message on your way in. You're like, oh, do I respond to this text message? You look and you see like you have to check your schedule. I would just write on an index card, check schedule for text message and put it on my kitchen counter and go along my day and either do that later that day or if Or if it could wait till Sunday, I would just throw it in my Sunday basket.

Okay, cool. I love that. That's very, very smart. It's interesting. I love listening to how different people do different things because I, I feel like we can all take a little piece of what works really, really well because this already sounds like an excellent plan to me, even though I know I am the kind of person who, if I can't open the mail right away, I'm I'm not, um, how do I put this? I am, I'm naturally not super clean or like not super tidy. And so I'm like, I'm okay having—

Me either. Me either.

And so I'm like kind of okay having 3 envelopes on the kitchen counter if I can't get to it right then. Usually I, I always try and get to it the same day. So like at some point that night, I will have a moment that I'm not trying to do something else and I can just quickly go through it because Because if it builds up for me, I can feel really overwhelmed on a Sunday. However, there's plenty of things besides mail that I don't do well with getting to every single day that a slash pocket in the Sunday basket would be really great for. And so I love that anyone listening, if you're like, oh, well, does that mean I need to change my mail routine? If what you're doing with your mail works for you, keep doing that.

Right.

But think about how this can work maybe in other areas of your life, whether it's flyers coming home with your kids. I love your example, Lisa, of you jotting down notes. You know, we all write down the phone number of something that we need to do and call or whatever and just like putting that in there so we don't lose it beneath the other piles of things on our counters that have become these to-do piles. It's so, so smart. Now, we have that plan for actionable stuff. So we're always on top of what we need to take action on. Let's talk about some of these long-term papers we need to keep for the long run. Do you use traditional files for those?

So the only thing I use files for is tax documents because as a business owner, I have to keep all the tax documents. And for 7 years, 50% of our take-home pay went to medical expenses for one of our kids. And so we wrote all that off on our taxes. So we have all that too. So I do have like a whole file drawer full of tax documents for business and personal, but that's the only thing I use files for. Everything else I use binders for.

Every—

okay. And how do you store these binders? I'm just curious, like visually what that looks like.

Yeah, they just go, there are 4 colors and they just go on a bookshelf.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah. And I actually store a lot of 'em in the kitchen cabinet, like right in the kitchen cabinet. Like they're right there. My kids' binders are right there. They can grab 'em.

Okay. Is this where you keep like any medical records, that kind of thing?

Yes. Okay. So I did some analyzation cuz I'm always analyzing things and when I decided I needed a better system, like one of my clients had 8 lateral drawers. of files just for their personal. And I was like, okay, how do you move that person to a binder, right? I mean, like, if you're going to create a binder system, it has to work for everybody. So I thought about her and the kind of paperwork they had. A lot was tax or legal paperwork that they just kept in the file cabinets. But when it really came down to it, again, just like those colors that we need inside of the Sunday basket, there are colors and there are roles that we play as household managers with So what is the purpose of the paper? If we go to the purpose of the paper, it's easier to organize it than it is what kind of paper you're holding. So the first big paper experience I had outside of my personal household was becoming the power of attorney, power of healthcare, and executor of my dad's estate. Those are very paper-heavy instances. So you need a medical binder and you need a financial binder. A medical binder is used for any medical paperwork that you have For being the power of healthcare. That's the goal of the binder. And the financial binder is to have a good idea of where all your finances are so that you or someone else could be your power of attorney. And ultimately that binder will help you settle an estate. So let me go through those 2 first and then we can move on. So when I created these binders, I created them because I had been my dad's power of attorney and settled his estate. So I understood in Ohio and in the United States what that process was like and the information that you needed. What I really wanted was a Mad Libs to just fill in all the things so I would know that I did my homework correctly. Mad Libs back in the '80s and '90s were these funny stories and you'd put in a noun or a verb or an adjective and then you'd read the story and it would be funny. I wanted that for me as an executor of the estate, like put in Social Security number here and all these other things and then poof, your estate is done. So I had gathered all the information I could. Unfortunately, in my dad's file cabinet, there were golf scores. And car catalogs.

Not helpful.

And I never got on his computer. So a lot of times when you're settling an estate, there is no information. And in each of these binders, where you find the information isn't always in your file cabinet. So a financial binder, you will find like legal documents, insurance, credit card information. All of those things usually are in file cabinets. You can find those things. But you also need to know what is online. So what are the online accounts? What are the passwords? I know you're very worried about these passwords, everyone. Let me just put your— allay your fears. If you are worried about knowing what your grandparents' passwords are, you don't need to because they don't even own a computer. They don't have them. So it's okay. It's all going to be on paper. But for ourselves, like, I'm very digital. So if anything were to happen to me, my husband doesn't know the passwords. Let me tell you that for a fact. So I need to have those written down somewhere. So that he could get in and so that he could do everything in that binder. So that's where the financial binder came from. All of my binders come with a workbook, and the workbook are all the things I know that you're going to need as a power of attorney and to settle an estate. And we've had our binders looked at with legal, tax lawyers, CPAs, estate attorneys have all looked at our binders. They're like, wow, this would be— this will get you 80% of the way there for sure. So that's the financial one. That's the one everybody's always most concerned about. That's the one your parents really need to do for you, like ASAP.

They don't have to tell you.

They don't want to tell you. That's fine. But just make sure they do their homework. Medical. There's very little in your file cabinet for medical. We all have it in our MyChart now, or it's at the doctor's office. You don't even have access to that. So when you need to be someone's power of healthcare, you need to build the medical binder. And the way that you build the medical binder is one, you get into those MyCharts and everything and print out everything you can. And then also you interview the person that you're caring for, or you write it down for yourself. What is your health history? What are your vaccines? What are the medications you're on? You know, all those things, because our healthcare is very individualized. So like I said, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. I don't take medication, but if I did, there are a lot of different medication options and they all work with everybody's chemistry differently. I've been through menopause. Let me just tell you, there are supplements that work and things that don't. Like, our body chemistry is unique, so we need that written down documentation of how things help us. And when you are stepping into a caregiving role, you're going to have more than one person in that caregiving role. So if you have siblings, if you have, you know, other people that are caring, they're going to want to look at that paperwork. A lot of things in caring for people, especially as they get older, is behavior-based. So if you can write down the different behaviors you see that mom or grandpa are having, then you could say, oh, every time they tend to act this way, it's actually a UTI, or whenever they do this, oh, we need to change this one medication dosage because you'll start to see patterns in the notes that people are writing down.

How long do we need to hold on to like receipts of, or reports of testing that's been done? I think even like for my kids, obviously there's 2 different stages. At one point I feel like we're caring for our kids and then at the next point we're caring for our parents. Yes. But there, there can be similarities between those 2 things. But let's say your kid gets tested every couple years for ADHD, or let's say they've had surgeries, uh, let's say you've had surgeries, you— whatever it is, how do we— like, do we keep all of it? I mean, they send you home with a packet every single time, and so me, the idea of putting all of that in a binder feels overwhelming. What, what's your advice there?

You're not gonna like my answer.

I might, because I, I tend to get rid of most things.

Keep it all.

Oh no, we're off of it.

Yeah, no. Well, the reason I say keep it all is because medical records only have to be kept for 7 years. So if you want to know what happened to your child 8 years ago, you may never find that information. My doctor doesn't digitize their records. I'm like, isn't that the law? They're like, we just pay a penalty. Yeah.

That's crazy.

And you move all over the world. So I would print it all, keep it all. Now, do you have to keep the printout that they give you every time you leave the doctor?

No.

You need the information. You need the information. Here's a great example. So I've been through menopause. You haven't, but it's coming eventually.

It is.

So a couple of things. Now that I'm getting my PhD, I know that science changes its mind as what it thinks things are, like what diagnoses are, what, what they think good numbers are. So the number of what your cholesterol numbers are have changed over the decades as to what they think is good and bad and what they're going to treat, etc., etc. And so I went to a new doctor I had infertility, so I didn't go to an OB-GYN for like forever. And then, somebody said I need to go to one for menopause. I was like, why? They're like, they do more than babies. I was like, oh, okay. I haven't been to one of those in decades. So, I went and they ran the full panel and they're like, ooh, next time you come, we're going to talk about a cholesterol medication. I was like, I don't think so. So, I went home and I went through my medical record because I made my doctor print it out for me. It's like this thick and I don't even have any conditions. And, I found every single time I had had my blood work done in the last 12 years, And what my cholesterol numbers were, and I put them on a little piece of paper by date. And also, what's interesting when you go back that far, it's a different range of what they thought was normal. So that was fascinating. So then I took that into my doctor the next year, and I was like, "Okay, I could see how as of today, I'm like not in your normal range, but aka the normal range has changed." And also, I've been through menopause now, and my numbers have actually gotten better. Because I'm eating better and I'm exercising, I'm doing all these things. So while the numbers are not normal based on average, wherever that came from, they're actually better for me than they were a decade ago. And she goes, okay, great, you don't need the medicine. Done. But had I not done that, I'd be on medicine right now because our doctors are treating to symptoms of whatever they know is coming down and comparing us to everyone. Our chemistry is unique.

Right, right. And I love, honestly, I love the integrity of science. I think that's what makes someone intelligent. And that's also what the purpose of science is, isn't to say we know everything. It's to say, this is what we know with improvements in our ability to understand ourselves and understand the world. And so I think with anyone who is turned off by the fact that these things change, I think it's actually a good thing because it shows a level of integrity of saying, okay, well, we've changed it because we've learned something new.

Yeah.

And when we learn something new, that informs what we do. And so I don't hold that against the medical industry by any means. In fact, I, I support that. I think that we need to have that, that level of willingness to change according to the new information we get. However, it does— I can see— absolutely complicate what that might look like for medical records and, and testing and all of that. And so holding on to the past, uh, all of our stuff, I can see that being necessary. But I love that you point out we don't hold on to the whole Just go through and get the information that you need. I think that is absolutely key, and there's probably some information we don't necessarily need. Like I'm thinking about my kids. Like I don't always need to know what percentile they were in at their two-year checkup. So when it comes to things that we let go of eventually, like do you ever go through those binders and say, "Okay, I don't need to hold on to this anymore," or like Like, okay, the time has passed where this would be relevant, or you're like warranties, things like that. How often do you go through and update your binders?

Yes, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't believe in science. I just got—

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was saying that more so for listeners because I heard it from you and I'm like, oh, she's got the science mind, and she— I knew exactly what angle you were coming from. I just want to make sure anyone listening knows that distinction because I know you do. Okay.

Yeah. So I'm gonna give, uh, I am gonna answer that question because that you're going to the reference binder. Can I also give a child medical example?

Oh, please. That would be great.

Okay, great. All right. So we have the medical binder, which is designed for adults. I also have the Warrior Mama binder and the Warrior Mama binder is for kids under 18. It combines medical and education together because medical informs education, education informs medical. Yes. You, I mean, they're gonna keep track of your percentiles when you go back and you look at the pediatrician. You don't need to keep that in your binder. What I would say, and if you have a child that's diagnosed with anything significant at all in childhood, what you need to keep are the letter where the doctor diagnosed that, what they called it, what tests they used, how they determined that diagnosis. So for example, I learned in my schooling when I was getting a PhD, autism, how we defined autism in the last 20 years has changed 4 times. Every time they come out with a new DSM-V, whatever it's called, the big blue book, they change how it's diagnosed. So originally it was autism. Then back in the early 2000s, there were 3 things you could get. You could get PDD-NOS, you could get Asperger's, or you could get autism. They were considered 3 different diagnoses. Now we're on the autism spectrum. But things that qualified in early 2000s as one of these 3 autism diagnoses no longer qualifies today. Here's why this is important. Parents, listen up. We don't care what they're calling it, why they're calling it. All we care is that we have a letter that says our kid had something. Because if your kid had something, sometimes ever in their early years, it gives them benefits in school. It gives them different therapies that they can get. And if you have a child that has any kind of a significant delay or diagnosis under the age of 18, it then supports them as an adult with a disability. And it has to have happened before the age of 18. I know you've adopted. I've adopted. There are also some things for adopted children specifically. You have to be able to show that it was birth-related, not environmentally related. So paper's powerful. So when you can have a legal piece of paper that came from a hospital or a doctor with their signature that says we have X diagnosis at X date, even if how we diagnose that in the future changes, the fact that you've received that diagnosis does not change. And whatever tests were used in order to get that diagnosis Are helpful also in how you will treat that diagnosis because things are often treated by symptoms, not by diagnosis. Like ADHD, for example, there are eight executive functions. Well, once you know which ones you're weakest in, those are the accommodations and the things that you would use to support your ADHD. It's not a one size fits all. So with your kids, just be really and and like I said, seven years is all they have to keep those medical records. And so when you need it. 10, 20 years later, you may not be able to find it. So I love to print that out. And I've had many people who will actually print out their results and hand them to their doctors, and their doctors interpret them differently because they're seeing them in real time instead of just reviewing their chart. And the last thing I'll say is when you have children that do have complex medical situations and you're going to new doctors all the time, I took the time to write a letter to the new doctor. Here's where this started. Here's what we've Here's what's been successful. Here's why we're here to see you. When you come into a doctor's office with that, first of all, your child's not listening to all the problems that they have out loud again in front of another professional. And number two, the doctor is able to read that without trying to like, you know, EQ and all these other things that we're doing in the real time. They're just reading it factually and going, here are my questions. And they always say, okay, great, this is awesome. Here are the three questions I have for you. Now we're on to. What are the solutions? What are the interventions? What are we going to do next? And we have just such a better conversation. So anyway, that's the medical and that's the financial binders. We are advocating for our own and other people's medical and financial needs. And when you can write it down and remember it and hold on to it, you could be a better advocate.

What you shine a light on that is so important and everything you've just said is that we're not keeping these papers for the sake of keeping papers. We're keeping them for a reason. And so if it doesn't add to the reason you need to keep it, then you don't need to keep it. So we need to just know what the reason we're keeping it is. And I think that you've really kind of like hit the nail on the head with that, that I feel like that's a big epiphany for a lot of people. We think, oh, I just got to keep papers because that's what you do. No, no, why? What are we doing with that information? And so why is it important to have That's amazing. Thank you so much for that. You mentioned the reference binder. Yes, you're going to like this one.

Now you're going to be happy.

Shannon's going to be happy now.

Okay, so the reference binder, this is what the majority of our file cabinet is.

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So the reference binder, this is what the majority of your file cabinet is. It's like all these manuals and receipts and, you know, the pest control company came and you had your carpets cleaned. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Like, if it's not going to add to the resale value of your house, bye-bye. The only thing you need to know is who was it who did it and do you want them to come back? Like, you just need their business card. So my reference binder in the front is the business cards of all the people that come to our house. We've lived in the same house for 30 years. All the home improvements that we did that would add to the resale value of our house, that's in there. And so when I do get manuals, Shannon, you think I'm— I'm not fixing anything in our house. I'm not fixing anything. So when I get the manual, I rip off the top page because it's going to tell me the model number and the year, and I staple the receipt to it so I know how much I paid. And that's all that goes in my reference binder because that's all I— I'm not fixing anything. I'm calling a guy. Now, here's where this will come to bite you in the butt. Apparently, you need to keep your manuals for your HVAC, you know, your heating and air conditioning unit, because when you call the guy and he shows up, he wants to see your manual.

I was like, oh, just a minute.

I ran upstairs, Googled it, and printed it out and brought it down to him. He goes, keep this by this thing. So I put it in a slash pocket and I duct taped it to it. So now it's right there. They can have it whenever they want. It's not even in my Because I'm not going to fix it. If you're a fixer person, then I guess you need a file drawer or something. I'm not going to fix it. If I am going to keep a manual also, I rip off the front page. If I'm going to keep any more of it, I just rip off the English. I don't need the Italian, the French, the Spanish, all the other languages it's translated into. That all goes in recycling. So in that way, I don't keep a lot of that stuff.

Again, it boils down to why am I keeping this? What do I need to reference and why? So if you're a fixer, you need to reference a manual. If you are not a fixer, you need to reference who you're going to call. Like, that's— that makes a lot of sense.

Yes, reference who you're going to call. My favorite.

So good. So I think a lot— one thing that I hear from people that kind of is a hurdle when it comes to paper is they have some papers they want to get rid of, but they feel like they need to shred it. What is your thoughts on shredding And what holds people back from just getting it done?

I mean, if you think the internet doesn't have all of our information already, okay. I mean, it's not just like I'm not shredding everything that has my address on it. Like I get mail for like 18 people at my house. I'm like, I don't know why they think all these people live here. I've been the one living here for 30 years. But anyways, I mean, I understand you're very, very concerned about your privacy and all that. Like that ship has sailed. Like we walk around with the phone. In our pocket that is listening. I know, I know you're listening to me. And I'm just like, help me out. Like, serve me the, serve me the ads you know I need. I, you know what I'm looking for. Give me the right ads.

Help a girl out.

But so addresses, I don't really worry about it. If it has, if it's medical information, if it has your Social Security number on it, which most things shouldn't anymore, they used to. And this is important when you're going through your parents' and grandparents' paperwork. Back in the day, they put your Social Security number on everything. So you might want to think about this when you're going through their paperwork. Simplest thing to do is to just get a banker's box or a paper bag and just throw everything you want shredded in that and then go to an office supply store. They're going to charge you $1 per pound. So like $10 for a brown paper bag, $25 for a banker's box.

Love it.

Just shred it.

Yeah, it boils back down to having a plan. You know, if you want to shred this paper and you don't have a whatever near you that you can go drop it off, then you might need to just buy a shredder, right? Instead of just saying, I'm going to figure it out. Well, you can't figure it out unless you have a shredder or you take it somewhere, right?

Right.

And I think sometimes it boils down to being really practical with yourself instead of just saying, someday I'm going to do that. Well, how, how am I going to do that? And then getting the tools, supplies, or planning when you're going to drive to go actually do it. That's kind of my take. And yeah, I agree in terms of like the privacy, obviously if it has your Social Security your— someone else's Social Security number on it. But the rest— I'm also— I don't know, maybe it's just because you and I are law-abiding citizens. I'm like, right, there's no one's going dumpster diving for my stuff, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not that interesting. It's gonna be okay. And though I do know people that have had their, their identities stolen, and I don't make light of that, I totally understand why we want to be careful with certain information. But we don't need to shred everything. We just need to shred things that have that kind of information Yeah, and I think that points to another—

I'm just gonna say a miss that we have in how we design households or how we run households. The head of household, whoever is the household manager, is responsible for 68% of US GDP. That's significant. Like, you're running a business. I like her, her eyes just came out of her head. If you're listening.

Wow.

Um, yeah, we usually— women who are running households are responsible for basically how the money flows through the world because of what we buy. And so when you're saying you should just get a shredder, amen. We should have a home office. Put more kids— I was thinking about your house to Finland, by the way. I'm thinking because the kids are probably going to have to share rooms anyway, I just wanted to give you this idea. I think you should have a sleeping room and then you should have a playing room. That way, whenever kids want to sleep, they could sleep, and then whenever they want to play, they could play. Anyways.

We've thought about that, but now that you say it, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna pull the trigger. I, I love that you gave me that permission. That's great.

And then we need a home office. I don't care if it's like a table or whatever. And your shredder should be in your home office. You're like, oh, but I don't want my shredder out in the living room. I want it to look like a living room. Why? When was the last time you had a party in your living room? Twice a year? Like, you don't— like, use your house how you want to use your house. And as household managers, we're spending 28 hours on average without parenting running our households. So have a place where you can like shred it when you think to shred about it. Like you should have a Sunday basket. You should have a shredder. You should have a place where mail goes. You should have like binders. You should you should have everything you need to run the enterprise that you are running. Why do we run all this on a shoestring and pretend like we're just going to use our brain for everything? Like no, get the school supplies. Set up your home office, even if it's a corner of your bedroom or whatever. This is where I run this household from. This is my management of the household.

Set We all need to hear that. Oh, that's so good. Okay, well, we could talk about paper forever and ever. Amen. So everyone's just gonna need to go buy your book, The Paper Solution. Speaking of books, I want to talk about Escaping Quicksand since that book is out today, and it is so good. From the bits that I've been able to read at the beginning, I love the opening question is just, what do you want? In fact, why don't you expand on why you lead with that? It's It's just, it's so to the point. I love it.

Yes. And I love that you're so close to 40. You're like just in the thick of it. You're like, oh, this is me right now.

Yeah.

Okay. So we, especially as women, give and we give and we give and we give and we give and we think we can't give anymore. And then we're like, yeah, I could give a little bit more. And so we just pour and pour and pour ourselves out. And we're like, it's selfish to think about ourselves. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Put your oxygen mask on first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got to fill our cup, blah, blah, blah. But really, my kids need me. My husband needs me. The house needs me. All these things need me. And I'm in more service and giving than I am in what we feel is taking. We feel it is taking. And so when we set out our plan, we think about everyone that we are responsible for and all the roles and responsibilities we have. And when you have young kids like you do, Shannon, I mean, you are just giving because you have little kids and that's something that you chose and you want it and you love it and you wouldn't give this up for anything. But when you're old like me, your kids are grown.

Stop.

54. So I'm 50 and I'm a grandma and my daughter's living in the basement with our grandson. He's 1. And I'm like, I really want to get my PhD. And my husband's like, that's crazy. That's too expensive. I'm like, the business can pay for it. That's always my answer. The business can pay for it. So I was like, the business can pay for it. So I had to figure out where to find 25 hours a week to get a PhD. Now I'm a very active grandma and I run my own company. I outsource most things at home. So I was like, I reduced my work hours down to 30, and then we got extra cleaning at home, and I started my PhD. And my husband's like, why are you doing this? You're not going to earn any more money. Like, you own your own company. I was like, because I want to. Why are you doing this? Like, you're not gonna— like, it doesn't— you could do your own research now. You don't have to have it in academia. I was like, because I want to. I just want to do it because I want to do it. And that is— it's like, no is a complete sentence. We as women have to be able to say, because I want to, is a complete sentence. Like, we're getting more comfortable with saying no is a complete sentence. I don't have to justify why I'm saying no. Why do we have to justify why we want to say yes? Like, if I had the time and I had the money, why do I have to justify it? Why does it have to be something that's going to better my ability to make money? As a matter of fact, this is going to cost me money. I I am graduating next week at the time of this recording, and I'm gonna fund my own research. Nobody does that. That is not a— that is not a thing. An individual funds their own research? No, you get an institution or whatever. Like, I don't do anything normal, but because I want to, because I want to, because I think it will significantly add to future people's lives, and I just want to do— I think we should be able to do things just because we want to do them.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And so when we ask ourselves that question, Why is that the starting point for escaping quicksand?

Because up until this point, you've been granting wishes, everything everyone else around you wants. Maybe not your spouse because they also might have stopped dreaming, but for sure your children. I want to do this.

I want to do that.

And you're like, okay, bending yourself into a pretzel. I'm sure we can jam that in between this and this and this and this. Like, but when we think about what we want, we're like, ooh, that's selfish. That's selfish. I shouldn't have wants. I should only have gifts. And our job, self-care, is to take care of ourselves from 18 to 88. And if you don't take care of yourself, if you don't have wants, if you don't have things that you're excited to do, then you're just going to become a robot. And our life is not to become a robot.

Well, and that's where the overwhelm comes in. Yeah, yeah. The overwhelm that you talk about in the book that we're trying to escape from starts with the fact that we aren't clear on what is important to us, which can include what's important to our children and our loved ones. But once we're clear on that, then it's easier to rid the schedule of— and the whatever else it might be— of the excess. Our homes of the excess, the schedule of the excess, in order to focus on the things that we want.

Yes. Yes. Like when you're decluttering, what do you want? Why do you want it? How did it get in this house? How can we not bring it back in again? Yeah, yeah.

And the whole book is kind of based on that premise, that starting point, and it's really empowering and it's, it's really fun also. It's super fun to read. One of the practical things you share that I want to touch on before we say goodbye is you write that women need to care for your adult needs first thing in the morning and last thing at night. What does that look like realistically, and why do you give that specific advice.

Yeah, so I'm, I'm thinking a lot of people who listen to you are probably in the military. Thank you for your service, by the way. And a lot of women who have younger kids, because you have younger kids. And so if, if you find yourself in the military and/or have younger kids, what does that look like? That looks like in the morning when you are getting your kids ready and you are getting yourself ready and you are making good nutritious food for them You're making good nutritious food for you. You're not just having a coffee while you make the kids breakfast and then throw them in the car and then go. What is it that would support your wellness and nutrition goals? And, how can you also be making that meal at the same time? And then, what does it look like at night? For me, that is adding flossing to brushing my teeth. And, I take supplements at night, so I have those all figured out. And, I have taken a hot bath every single night of my adult life unless I'm in a hotel that does not have a bath. Yes, me too! Every single time. And even with little kids, my husband was like, like, it could be 4 minutes, but I mean, I always got my hot bath no matter what. No matter what, my husband would make sure I got that hot bath every single night. Once it was 4 hours this summer, my husband was very concerned because I could see the TV from my bathtub. So he's watching TV and I'm in the bathtub. He's like, you know, you're going on hour 4. I'm like, just zip it.

It's fine, it's fine, I'm good.

You know, I keep running more hot water in there. Like, just leave me Just leave me alone.

Oh man, that's great. I'm a big believer hot baths are the sign of a woman who is going to be successful because you have been able to relax enough that then you can get out and you're going to be really productive and excited about life. I, I take so many baths. My listeners know this, that I take a weird amount of baths for somebody who is in the middle of writing a book and raising 3 kids and doing a podcast 3 times a week. But like, it is what helps me be able to get back on the horse, so to speak. I love that, taking care of your needs first thing in the morning, last thing at night. There are so many really wonderful practical ways to overcome the overwhelm inside of your home and in your life in Escaping Quicksand. So can you tell everyone where they can listen to your podcast, buy your books, all of the things?

Oh, thanks, Shannon. So everything's Organized 365. You could buy the book Escaping Quicksand anywhere books are sold. Uh, the website is organized365.com. The podcast is Organized 365, and I'm most active on Instagram under Organized 365.

I love it. Thank you so much for coming on. This was so fun and so helpful, and you're just the best.

Thank you.

You just listened to an episode of Paring Down with me, Shannon Laco. Please don't forget to hit follow or subscribe, and I will love you forever and ever if you leave a 5-star review because those reviews are so helpful on the back end of things. And for more resources about decluttering and intentional living, sign up for my short weekly newsletter, The Less Express, which you can find in the show notes, and follow along on social media. Just look me up. I'm Shannon Leyko, L-E-Y-K-O. Thank you so much for listening. We just moved into our new house and there's this really fun little secret room that my daughter has claimed. And we were like, yes, we will decorate it as your special secret room. And so one of the things that is a secret room non-negotiable is twinkle lights. And that is where Wayfair came in for our house recently. I found the cutest twinkle lights. They have all of the options. 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